In this podcast, Petra and Margaret continue the conversation about inclusion in Forest/Nature School and outdoor play contexts. We talk funding sources, planning for inclusion, and more concrete ways to improve accessibility and inclusion.
In this podcast, Petra and Margaret continue the conversation about inclusion in Forest/Nature School and outdoor play contexts. We talk funding sources, planning for inclusion, and more concrete ways to improve accessibility and inclusion.
Petra 0:04
Hi, Margaret. Hi. Welcome back for part two of our conversation part two of who knows how many education about access and inclusion in outdoor play and learning environment. How are you doing today?
Margaret 0:22
I'm good. I'm good. So many things rolling through my mind as I arrive into this conversation wondering, where shall we be led to next? Where shall we leave each other?
Petra 0:36
I'm also so excited to follow the threads I was hoping we could start today with so last time you mentioned that at the lion in the mouse, your urban outdoor play program in Montreal, you developed a shadow program to be able to support all the various needs that children show up with to the program to support all different children to thrive in the program. So can you just let's dive into that and share? How did you structure that? Did you have to find additional funding? How did you do that? How might that be replicated by others in?
Margaret 1:17
Absolutely. So the real thing that kicked us into gear to get going was having conversations with other groups and realizing that our ratios were even lower than what other people we're operating with, in part because our community and our membership had a lot of diversity. It's so talking to other for school programs and realizing, okay, so we have low ratios are slightly lower, okay. And understanding that we had some complexities in running our programs that weren't necessarily occurring in all places, and turning around and having this moment amongst our team and thinking it must be somebody's job to help pay for all this, because like a lot of organizations, we were small, we a tight budget, passionate staff, who are there for love, not money, ultimately. But seeing that this need is there and saying, Okay, well, there must be a way to meet it. And other must, there must be somebody whose job it is to make sure this stuff happens, you know, we're showing up. But we can only do so much with what we have financial resource wise. And so we're based in Quebec, and in Quebec, we have these regional units like sport and leisure units. And what I think is interesting here is I know a lot of people don't generally think of forest and nature school as being leisure or sports, but free play time outside. All of this fits into that it can't fit into that realm. And the point is that since I know I can explain why outdoor play is so much more powerful than leisure, as in a way to fill time if you take that sense from it. But what matters is that that's how funding for this kind of activity is understood. And so because we're an independent program, not affiliated with a school or a daycare, any educational structure, we're able to go through leisure channels, and there's funding at the ministry level for inclusive sports and leisure activities. So in school systems, they have their funding for additional supports for children with disabilities that are often managed by a code in daycares. I know in Quebec, we also have a program where there's additional additional resources available for daycares for the integration of children with disabilities. And in leisure contexts, this exists as well, something that's interesting that was really interesting for us to find out about is that in the leisure context, we weren't required to have the same level of documentation as, for example, a school board would see a child who is awaiting diagnosis while the need exists, and so that need for support is there. And so we were able to have the funding to provide the support even if the diagnosis isn't yet received, or if an evaluation hasn't been done to is a bit different than how it tends to work in schools where if you don't have the official signed paper with a diagnosis, well, then you don't get your code, which means you don't get your money. So that's specific to how it's structured in Quebec. But I do know there's many initiatives in different provinces around creating inclusive sports and leisure and that shadow programs are not they're not new new, like they're not a new thing. What is new from what I've seen and heard is for schools and play based programs, that channel to access those resources, so to say, even if we understand our work, to be massive and touch every sphere of a child's life, sometimes it's helpful to be able to look at okay, well what's the A legal framework I'm operating under, what is the box they see me in? And? Okay, that's that means. I guess that's a learning I've had over the years is that even though I see that this work is very transversal funding can be very structured. And there's nothing wrong with saying, Oh, yes, I'm part of the world of sports and leisure, because, and be able to say, Yes, I'll accept your money to make my program accessible. And of course, knowing anyone who shows up in that program is going to feel that it's transformative. Yeah. So that's sort of how I got started the program that we that we work under, it's called Pallium. It's the program for accompaniment in leisure for the Island of Montreal. And it's something that exists in every region in Quebec. So often you'll have a local association of sports or sports and leisure, which will be responsible for managing these kinds of programs. So if you're not sure where to start, seeing is there a regional sports and leisure association can be a way to do it. If you're in a school context, I'm sure you already have your frameworks there. And same in in daycares, it's worth digging to see what can exist for the additional integration support. And once the supports show up, how you incorporate them in your program, the approach that you use to Shadowing is yours. It's it's an operational decision based on how your program functions. I think what's interesting in our context is part of the putting the program in place. We had our staff had training from the organization that manages the funding and a great organization called Alta scope, who did some training. I think it was about three or three hours online, sort of a bit of a quick and dirty, but it's great, because I mean, as we're finding already, you can you can go so deep into all of this, but it gives some concrete tools of well, what would I do in the event of a meltdown? What would I How could I consider making an activity inclusive, so that every one is actually a part of it. So I definitely recommend, if you're getting if you're looking into the idea of of shadowing, if you do find another way to fund shadows, I've also, for example, working with Canada, summer jobs for daycamp been able to double funding by saying, Okay, I still need a facilitator, but I also need a shadow. So those are ways for for the summer position. Sometimes if you name that there's a second kind of position. Now, when you submit your funding applications. Well, now they might find both, which is a very helpful endeavor as well. But to get that that bit of training, as well, and to consider, okay, once this person has some training that gives them some some orientation around concrete situations that might arise and how they could be supportive to the kids to also consider what's the role of the shadow program in your program? We touched a bit on this last time, but are we adapting? Are we integrating? are we including? So are we changing? You know? Are we starting with a plan and changing it when we have to so that so that everyone can participate? Meaning? Are we specifically changing our activity for the disabled child? So they're effectively doing something different than the others? Are we trying to make those make some small changes so that the disabled child can be part of a standard activity or a standard group functioning? Or are we really reimagining the way we're functioning as a group, so that it is an environment in which everybody thrives together? Which is that including inclusion component, if you're interested in inclusive education, there's like a wealth of, of a whole world to discover.
Petra 8:49
I'll get you to suggest, you know, a few starter resources on that front, before we go any further. Okay, so you've mentioned some funding sources that folks can pursue training, and then thinking through sort of the undergirding approach or philosophy to how the shadow program is going to work in your setting. And I'm wondering when you talk about inclusion as reimagining the program, so that everybody can thrive. That seems like an impossible bar, like sort and sort of a paralyzing bar potentially, like one that might get us stuck and like, Well, how am I going to anticipate all the possible needs that could come my way? So two questions for you is how do you anticipate as best as possible and it is as best as possible? The bar, like what sort of standard can we hold ourselves to yet? Because including everything sounds like this sort of perfection
Margaret 10:03
bar. And I'm happy to use that word perfection if there is no such thing. And I think something to understand to his needs fluctuate over a day. So even if you've done the most stellar job possible to make a perfectly inclusive program plan, well, somebody might show up and be like, actually, that was me last week. And then now it's different. So in this, creating this inclusive program, I think of it more as understanding how you're inviting people. So when you invite someone to come, are you giving them reasonable access to what they need to be able to participate? And once they do start to participate? Are you listening to what works and doesn't work for them. So a lot of it is CO constructing your program with your participants. It's it's arriving and having a wagon in case you need to carry the backpacks for somebody, but also being okay if you don't ever go anywhere farther than where you met to start your day. So when I think of that, being able to imagine a program where everyone can be part of it. I think it's honest, Glee. I mean, as people register, I like to invite them to share about themselves, wept and say, Tell me about your child. That's a place where parents are more likely to share things. That's where someone might might slip in, like, loves bees, loves mud, sometimes runs away. And you're like, oh, sometimes runs away. First of all, thanks so much for communicating that. And I'd love to hear more, you know, in what situations, are there specific triggers? Does this happen in all contexts? Do you have a code word or a safe word at home you use for when it's gone too far? These are all pieces of information that otherwise someone might think well, but I mean, often in forms, it's like, Does your child have a medical condition? And you say, like, well, it's not a medical condition, but it is something that impacts how they are able to participate or not. And when a parent names that a child, that you that you should perhaps anticipate some challenging behavior, I really consider all forms of behavior are a form of communication. So to understand, well, what is this child going to be trying to communicate with me. And so trying to create a program that is as inclusive as it can be, involves listening to all the forms of communication that are being shared with you, during your program, it is impossible. Not only is it impossible for one person to somehow see all the needs that could exist. In my personal experience, it's also impossible to have an entire program where everyone's needs perfectly coexist. And so that's where so much of it is in recognizing whose needs are being centered, is normal, being centered, you know, is performance being centered? What what are we? What are we asking to adjust for the sake of, you know, group, the harmony in the group? So noticing is that always the same person who's being asked to change their behavior, you know, it's not, you know, the, someone might, who needs to move and make noise as things are happening, it might over time become difficult for other people in the group to be close to that constant, you know, but we can consider how can both parts full, how can that need for expression be acceptable to the group dynamic, or that's like not not compete with other people's needs for silence or focus. And, and sometimes it's, it's as simple as naming that both our needs, and that we need to find a way for them all to be here, because, hey, you're here. And you're going to be here until 3pm. So
Petra 14:07
So you, when you're designing the program, you don't have to sort of anticipate all these needs in a vacuum, like you can seek the information. We've talked a lot last time and this time about using the registration process as an information gathering process to to help plan the program so that we're not having to anticipate every single possible need and then also going into it with the understanding that that's going to change and shift moment to moment. And then And it's those questions you asked around whose needs are being centered, who's having to adapt? What is new is normal, being centered naming things as needed using those as the parameters of your your includes your approach to inclusivity Yeah.
Margaret 15:01
And another moment in that program development process that I find really helpful for that thinking ahead towards inclusion. So yes, we have the moment when the families are going to register and share their specific needs. But even before that, well, you've done the work of choosing a site, you've done the work of deciding, well, what kinds of play, you know, what kinds of risks Am I able to hold in this dynamic or not? So in with our risk benefit assessments, or we can get to our site evaluations, our activity risk benefits, all of these things. And something that I like to do is to add a column where it's not just about risk, it's also accessibility concerns. So when I'm looking at my site to determine is this a place I'm going to be welcoming children where I'm comfortable? And what do I need to consider? Well, that's where I can also want to look at the boundaries of the site, I could say, well, also what are the access concerns in getting in and out of the site. And so if that works done ahead of time, then when someone does register, and say, perhaps my child has reduced mobility needs to use a walker, well, then you already have done that work ahead of time to be able to look at your site and determine, well, which part of my site may be may be accessible to this child? Do I now know how can I ensure more of it is, but if you've done that reflection ahead of time, and I think something that happens is there's a tension between wanting to do everything, and deciding where to put your resources and knowing that if the site is not accessible, that no one who needs mobility devices will ever be able to go. So there's a bit of that chicken in the egg. And so saying, I don't need to do it until someone shows up is putting the onus on the family or the child with disabilities, not just to put themselves out there to you, but then also to hold your hand as you do the work of figuring out how to include them. So when we can consider accessibility concerns in our site evaluations in our activity evaluations, think it through sledding, okay, how would I be doing sledding with a child who has has difficulty following the paths for whom it would be really unclear which ways down in which we thought and it could be as simple as saying, I'm going to do some snow paint, I'm going to make a red line is down on the snow and a blue line is up. And that's a visual indicator, but if you can start to, to imagine these things, and they're things that are going to, you know, developing these these little tricks and the interset, it grows together. So your site evaluation, but you can do ahead of time, it might give you some basic information, you know, you might know, okay, this is all dirt here, there's lots of there's lots of rocks, or in this area, I do have boundaries that are clearly visible, those kinds of elements. And then when somebody registers you can start to see, okay, well, this is an actual person, and how might this person experience this environment. And so getting to know your site, getting to know the kinds of activities you'll be doing there and getting to know the children will be present all weave together, how your program may grow over time to become more inclusive. And I think, when we do have, certainly, if you do have limited resources, it's a it's a natural thing to say, well, let's first work on being able to include the two of you who are here. Let's do right by the people who are showing up. And let's not forget the people who aren't able to show up yet, the line and the mouse speed spinner, and very quickly worked a lot with children with with invisible disabilities, particularly neurodivergent children, and we'd have a stellar summer and look around and say, still haven't managed to, to make this work yet or to have that space for someone with a mobility aid. For us. It was a serious challenge. It's not our we're not owners of the site. And we don't have the ability to do serious infrastructure on it. There's lots of work to come, but it's something to not forget. So I guess I'm what I'm saying is like, like everything in Forest School, it's emergent, everything. It's a process. Everything is in everything. And I think the most important thing is to just start, you know, and even if the first step that you do is, as you're doing a seasonal site evaluation, you're walking your site to just start considering how would I experience this site in if I was in a different body mind as we say if I was if I was in a different body if I was in a different space, so you can kind of get into lots of there's lots of I guess I've said this, there's lots of ways to start peeling an onion. So I'm
Petra 19:40
reminding myself and we can ask for help like we can. It can always be a conversation with the families that show up or that we want to show up. So But I'm wondering so this idea of doing a site evaluate Sherman from that perspective of access and inclusion and and then also like you have a lot of tips and tricks up your sleeve like that occur to you in terms of like even what you mentioned with if you know, the pads of up and down are not going to be immediately obvious paint them out, like what if those things don't occur to us? So So number one is, can you identify like, what the criteria are that you're using to imagine yourself in the space in a different body mind? Like, what are some of the what, what are some of the like criteria that you're going through as you because I think there's things like, you know, mud or deep snow or sort of wobbly rock that might immediately be like, okay, so someone with mobility, that's going to be a challenge. But beyond that, what else? Are you maybe noticing or looking for something I
Margaret 21:00
think to a lot is making it feel like make the make the invisible, visible? So things that you might perceive without even realizing it? Make it visible? That can mean instead of saying, oh, yeah, like the tree over there is the limit, but it only covers one small part of you know, it's not a clear line, could you put something physical there to remind people of the limit, because if it's invisible, well, you may forget it, you may not have that orientation in space. So I think a lot about making the invisible visible about making what's visual, also be something that can be heard, and that's making what's only heard be something that's visual as well. So that way, you have multiple ways to be processing information at any point in time. So when I think about it, as well, to welcome someone with a disability in this space, what information do I need to welcome anyone in this space? What information is really important to communicate? And what are different ways that I can communicate it to increase the likelihood that this information is accessible to everyone? So for example, if I come back to an example of what what is the limit, done things of having kids physically walk the limits, you know, you're saying, Okay, so we're gonna play within this space, because that's the space that I can supervise with everybody, right now, sometimes moving your body through that space can make the difference for somebody, I've also had, let's put up a big sign to remind you had be if you hear this noise, you've gone too far. So to have lots of different ways to receive information around those essential things that you absolutely need to be able to communicate some of the other elements that you didn't get into, as I think a lot of it is asking, and noticing. So if you feel you've done everything you can to communicate the basics. And something still is not quite working to understand that challenging behavior, or all of our behavior is a form of communication and to dig into. Okay, so what's going on here for you? Is there something that wasn't clear? Is there something that like a need that's not being met and to recognize that children may or may not actually come to you for that conversation, breaks my heart, but there's plenty of plenty of children I've seen who are just happy to be invited in the sense of happy that they're able to show up in some way, even if they can't be at the center of what's happening. And so going in and finding Well, what's being communicated by where you're placing yourself in this group, what's being communicated by the way that you're playing the games, that you're the type of player choosing. And I think it's a lot of noticing, asking, being open to shifting and again, recognizing that parents are an amazing resource. And if a parent does choose to share a diagnosis with you, well, now you have a search term that may help you uncover other information. And always being sure to look for information that comes from disabled people themselves, or has been approved by sort of, I guess, in terms of developing the reflex and like the commons, you know, your community of people, they come as you know, your site, you can know that the section when it's muddy is real slippery. I might never have known that, you know, if I came on a dry day to your site, I might not have have understood that there was the slippery mud pit is an issue, regardless of having more experience, perhaps in considering shadow programs and supporting children with disabilities and outdoor play. So it's also
Petra 24:45
I'm realizing like a lot of the work. It's reframing a lot of the knowledge that we might already have or some of the practices that we're already doing and realizing like oh, that's Knowledge that supports inclusion. It's not just knowledge that supports risk management or knowledge of my site. It's also knowledge that supports inclusion or the practices that I'm using to recognize difficult behavior as communication. That's also an inclusion practice. So that's an encouraging piece. I'm wondering if you can share, maybe a story that either is like a shining example of a success story that jumps to mind from the shadow program, or less, on the other hand, like maybe one of your most your biggest learning experiences where you were like, oh, okay,
Margaret 25:46
there have been so many beautiful, bright moments. And what I feel most compelled to share is not one of those. And it may be speaks to the challenge in holding space for inclusion in programs. As I've shared previously, when we were spoken, I have two children, both of whom are autistic, neurodivergent, bold, beautiful humans. And in their time in the shadow program, one of them in particular, when overwhelmed or experiencing significant anxiety could have behaviors that are quite challenging. Meaning could you know, from time I was bitten, somebody had hit somebody, all of these things. In those moments, I think, what's the hardest is to understand the behavior and understand that it's not coming from a place of malice. In fact, it's often coming from a place of feeling excluded, and then lashing out, one could say, so understanding where it comes from, and that it is not a sign that that person is a bad person. And still being in the situation with the behavior itself is not acceptable. And then layering on the feelings of other children's parents, who may or may not be aware of the situation this child is living. So in some situations I've had, I've chosen myself, I think if I take this one concrete example, I had a parent very irate, complaining that their child had been bullied, their nine year old was being bullied by this kid. And I'm reading the email, and I'm like, Oh, just yeah, just waiting for the ball to drop. When you write my kid's name, my kid at the time was five. So that was a yeah, this nine year old is being bullied by this five year old and camp. What leave them alone even tried to buy him off by giving him cookies, and he still kept coming back. And I'm reading this and my heart is breaking, because I know this child and no, he's trying to make friends. He's He's coming back over and over, because he's trying to reach out. And yes, it's annoying, you could keep saying the exact same thing. But also, it's because he's not sure how else to engage with you. So I'm experiencing this knowing, understanding the what's behind that. And now also learning that this has been an upsetting experience for this other child and having to then say, you know, what, in an inclusive when we're striving for an inclusive program, like, here's the big secret customers, not always right? No, is to then say, actually, it's more complex, then your child's feelings in isolation, like, Thanks for bringing this, these these feelings to our attention. But this is something that needs to be addressed within this group dynamic. And directly with these children, this isn't an angry parent comes to me and complains, and therefore I punish the child for the behavior, which I think is something that can be challenging for parents who are particularly in a program looking for their child to have their child's best day. So I think one of the pieces that's been a challenge for me and took time to to learn the ropes of is when parents of non disabled children have to also adjust for themselves, their expectations of what an inclusive program looks like, and what the goals of it are, and accepting to move a little slower perhaps, or to two different kinds of work together, but work that actually can be done to get there in our play.
Petra 29:15
There's that that moment of who are we centering and who's having to adapt both their behavior and their expectations? So building the inclusive culture, it's not just about okay, what supports can I provide and what changes to the infrastructure, etc, etc. But yeah, it's really about building that culture, with the children but also with the families around what's being centered and naming, you know, the dominant culture of ableism, which is like all the isms, I think, largely invisible to those of us who benefit from it. Right.
Margaret 29:55
Absolutely. And a really simple first step for us that we found how Want to just be sharing about that, that process the flow of the program? And not saying, Look, we made fires, look, we built this big thing to, to get out of that performance was a great invitation for parents of non disabled children to also get out of measuring how their day how their child's day was by what their child accomplished.
Petra 30:23
Right? Okay. So that's so fascinating, about even the end of the day, sort of interaction with with parents and caregivers can be shifted for inclusion. So if we can move away from we did this, we we accomplished this, but to emphasize more the process of things or the real like relational.
Margaret 30:56
And I think I to be honest, I think it all comes down to what is the goal you have with this program? Why are you bringing this into the world? What impact are you hoping to have with the children who are present? And how are you doing this for all of them? I know if you're in a learning, a more structured learning environment where for example, you'll have to give a report on progress on certain developmental goals. Well, you know, that can exist within your practice. But are those developmental goals? The thing that you always want to be centering in your conversation? Or are they something that you accept is part of your practice, but not the only reason why you've chosen this approach, there may be parts of for school that speak to things much larger than child development, I hope there are, you know, I see for school and play, and reestablish or establishing relationships with the land is a really amazing space for liberation, for everyone, if we engage in it this way, and accept that this is a learning process. But yeah, I mean, I'd be lying if I said, I've had before, where I shared an adorable Instagram photo of kids with a fire and got a message from a parent saying, my kids group didn't get to make a fire. Let's say, that wasn't that wasn't the right fit for your kids group this day. But I can tell you, they still had a great for a school day like,
Petra 32:21
yeah, so I'm, it's again, like, it's so interesting, like speaking to you. It's really making me realize that what I thought inclusion meant, and looked like, from the planning down to the practice, it's, it's not what I thought it looked like I was envisioning a very different bar or standard, I think then what is helpful? So as you're speaking, I'm pulling out these sort of concrete techniques or concrete things I could implement. But it's yeah, it's not just like, oh, find some money to get a shadow or build a ramp, or it goes right back to what are my what are my goals? Like, we can start with what what am I trying to do here? Because then that influences what I communicate about, it influences how I'm going to envision the day or the activity, that inclusion shift.
Margaret 33:37
Yeah. And I think to recognize, like, your goals for your specific program, also come from your way of seeing the world so to know to ask yourself, What am I what's influencing my goal choice? What's it informed by? Which community is behind me? Or have I not engaged with? So there's a lot of how am I arriving to this work matters just as much as what am I trying to do with this work? And those are all questions that are really going to have an impact on how you welcome people into it and who feels welcome in in what you're offering.
Petra 34:16
It's good to know that there is that you know, in breaking down barriers to our programs, we so in pursuit of this good, we may encounter resistance from, you know, good people. It reminds me of that podcast, like nice white parents. Yes. So good intentioned for school or outdoor play, parents may resist our efforts to break down barriers. And so it's like the pursuit of this good thing might not always feel good It might feel confusing, and definitely comfortable. I think we can like bank on discomfort. Yeah,
Margaret 35:07
absolutely. And I think I think if we avoid discomfort, then we avoid the important work and understand and ask yourself, well, if if there's discomfort and you're leaning away from it, then who's left there, and generally, it's going to be the children or people with disabilities who are left in that, that space, if you do have that the ability to to make your programs more inclusive, and you don't know, inclusion is fundamentally connected to ableism, which is fundamentally connected to other forms of oppression. It's about who's being centered, as you said. And something I like to say here is I know, I think what's what can be helpful to recognize where people's well we think of well, what is work you're already doing that is going to help you along your way. Any anti oppression work you're already doing, is also going to feed into this. So if you have taken time to understand how you will welcome gender diversity in your program, if you've taken time to put in work decolonizing your practice building relationships with indigenous communities where you are, these are all things that are stretching your legs and practicing that work of decentering. White, able bodied, normal, this this sort of, you know, I get that it's like, if you can dissenter, the so called norm, you know, get away from the image of the typical child in your program, the more you can dissenter that then the more you are able to practice that understanding how other people may arrive in your space and how you're influencing that for them.
Petra 36:51
That seems like a really beautiful place to pause. If not, today, you mentioned that you have something that you've written is or would you like to share that?
Margaret 37:04
Yeah, I could share that. I think that would be nine. This is just something I felt compelled to write coming home from from one of my my classes and critical disability studies. You know what, though? I'm gonna read something different right now connected to that last note we were just on.
Petra 37:22
And that's maybe how we can close out for today. Yeah, exactly.
Margaret 37:25
So this is something that it's from a collective called Sins Invalid based in the United States. As we challenge white supremacy, settler colonialism, gender normativity and the violence that targets trans people. We challenge able bodied normativity through this clearing practice, we create disability justice. Yeah, reading that really took me to a different place in my work towards inclusion I encourage you to follow read celebrate the work of since invalid and other disability justice activists, dreamers builders,
Petra 38:11
yeah, thanks, Margaret. A clearing practice that will sit with me for a while. Until we next chat