Setting the Stage (with Sinéad and Kay)

In the first episode of Learning to Listen: CNAC’s Reconciliation in Practice, hosts Petra and Monica engage with long-time Forest/Nature School practitioners and CNAC facilitators Kay Rasmussen and Sinéad Rafferty. They reflect on their experiences working with CNAC, providing context for the ongoing changes discussed throughout the series. The conversation touches on the challenges of confronting settler colonialism, truth, reconciliation, and anti-racism, as well as the need for more Indigenous and racialized voices in the field. Kay and Sinéad share their thoughts on community, the romanticized view of nature education, and the need for more inclusive practices.

Transcript

Monika: 0:04

Hello and welcome to this special series in the Child and Nature Alliance of Canada podcast called learning to listen. CNAC's Reconciliation and Practice. I'm Monika Goodluck, and I'm Petra Eperjesi, and we're your co hosts.

Petra: 0:19

Learning to listen is all about our gradual and ongoing journey with truth and reconciliation as a white settler led organization working to support outdoor play and learning on stolen indigenous land.

Monika: 0:33

In this first episode of our new series, Learning to

Listen: 0:36

CNAC's Reconciliation and Practice, Petra and I meet with long time Forest and Nature School practitioners and CNAC facilitators, Kay Rasmussen and Sinéad Rafferty, who share their experiences learning and working with cnac between 2012 and 2020 setting the stage for the changes we will be discussing throughout the rest of this series.

Petra: 0:59

That's right. Monika, this episode provides essential context about why we needed to wrestle with settler colonialism, truth, reconciliation and anti-racism. Kay and Sinéad share how they felt a strong sense of community among forest and nature school practitioners and the CNAC team, while simultaneously being concerned about the lack of indigenous voices, the lack of racialized people's experiences, and the romanticized view of connecting predominantly white children with nature. We hope you find it interesting.

Monika: 1:37

So it's wonderful to have you both here, Sinéad and Kay, we'd love to start with hearing a little bit about yourselves. If you don't mind introducing yourselves. Let's get started with Sinéad. Let's get started with Sinéad.

Sinéad: 1:50

Morning. So nice to be with you all in this conversation today. My name is Sinéad Rafferty. My pronouns are she/her. I'm first generation Canadian settler in Turtle Island. My parents are from Ireland, and I was born and raised here in Treaty 13, the current treaty holders of the Mississaugas, of the credits First Nation and the traditional land of the Chippewas and Mississaugas Anishinaabe, the Haudenosaunee and the Huron Wendat in Treaty 13. And I am a facilitator with CNAC. I've been facilitating Since 2017 and then in 2022 moved into a full time role as a full time facilitator with CNAC supporting courses in the Ontario region and also supporting the regional teams in facilitation as well.

Monika: 2:50

Thanks. Renee, over to you, Kay.

Kay Rasmussen: 2:54

My name is Kay Rasmussen, and I live in what is now known as Kenora, Ontario in the Treaty Three region. I am mixed race, First Nation, Acadia and settler. My father is Mi'kmaq Acadian, and my mother is second generation settler Canadian. And I started working with CNAC in 2017 and I'm now a lead facilitator with the Child and Nature Alliance of Canada.

Monika: 3:38

So it sounds like both of you were working with CNAC 2017, and what I understand is that before that, you both took the practitioner course sometime before that, I'd love to hear from you both, what was your experience? What drew you to the course in CNAC at that time, and then what was that experience like?

Sinéad: 4:04

Sure I can go first. So I What drew me to the course around the time that the I was actually part of the very first course that for school Canada had ever offered, and I had learned about it because I was also, at the same time, wrapping up my graduate work in outdoor early learning programs. And so I learned about this course being introduced to Canada. And so I did take that course. And well, I guess when I was taking the course, it was also when I was wrapping up my mymaster's work too. So I felt a bit like wanted to be in but wasn't, yeah, just was curious and and about how the course was going to be. And so when I took the course, I knew that it was a partnership with forest school UK. And so I was actually led the course was led by a mentor who's been offering the course in with for school UK for a number of years came, and that's who I did the training with and so it was why I wanted to be involved. I guess it was the first. It was what I felt was the most tangible place to be in connection to what I was interested in doing. You know, my my interest has always been around supporting children and supporting land and this course, among other things, like I was also offering workshops to with with the early learning communities around supporting children's relationship with land and nature. They were mostly connected to, like ecological literacy and relationship with with nature and nature based learning. So that was more of the language that I was using at that time, and then it was a number of years before I actually, because there's a process, right. There was a process of taking the five days and then and then developing a portfolio. It was really comprehensive. It was pretty much modeled after the one that was happening in UK and, and so it took me a number of years to actually get through that piece, because I had our I was just mentally like, just at at my max with the academic kind of work and and those sort of projects. So I had paused on that. One thing that so when I was doing my graduate work, I was also teaching a course in an ECE program, post secondary course in social justice for early learning communities. And for me, what came up for me a lot with the work that was happening and developing around supporting children to a relationship with nature, that it was very focused on the child and and the course that I was supporting and learning from in the EC program, there was a lot of these intersections with social justice and dynamics of oppression, and that's something that and it's even something that I explored a lot In my graduate work, around how so so much of relationship with nature has been around extraction from the Land and extraction from nature and supporting children primarily. And so I had concerns even then, around how much of this was around supporting it's almost like that anthroprocentric view that the land exists for human use and consumption and so that was a concern of mine. And also I was also like part of the course, the social justice course, was raising awareness around oppression for indigenous rights and sovereignty and and so that's something that was plagued for me earlier on around, you know, to do this movement here in Canada, it needs to be in collaboration and alongside indigenous people and with their voice, because of what, what was known about the historical like Canada's historic history with residential schools and oppression.

Monika: 8:45

So, yeah, go ahead. Monika, so I just want to make the link to the course that you were taking through what was called Forest School Canada at the time, which is now known as CNAC. You mentioned this the social justice course and the graduate work that you were doing, and just your last few comments. Are you saying that those were things that you weren't seeing in the course, or that you were bringing to the course? Can you just relate it back for the listeners to how, how the courses and this other knowledge you were who were developing elsewhere, related to the Forest School Canada course that you were taking.

Sinéad: 9:25

Yeah, I saw those pieces as missing. And I think what, like, there was a lot of momentum with works like Richard Lou's Last Child in the Woods. And every all this reference to children and nature always had that it was like it just it was always referencing a very kind of nostalgic and romantic notion of children in relationship with nature, that children are innocent, and which it was predominantly like white childhoods, right? Like that reflection on, you know, what a white childhood should be, should look like and be, like so those were things that I was always like, you know. I could see things happening. I felt grateful for this course. I felt grateful that there was like things happening. Like it was becoming more and more almost what felt like more and more mainstream to support children's relationship with nature. And it was also going along that path of, like, you know, that very privileged path of supporting primarily white people in this, this romantic notion of forest nature school, without considering who, who has access, whose voices aren't being included, who's not here.

Monika: 10:37

So it sounds like you brought, you, know, a really nuanced lens through through your experience of that course. And as you said, there were many positive things that you were getting through the Forest School Canada course, and also wondering about some other components and and wanting from that. I'm going to go over to Kay now, and we'll come back. We'll come back to that topic a little bit in a little while, Sinéad. Kay, I'm curious about how you came to take the facilitator course with I'm presuming with Forest School Canada at that time, what drew you to the course, and maybe just a little bit about how that unfolded. And we'll get into that conversation a little bit deeper.

Kay Rasmussen: 11:24

Sure. Thanks. Monika in 2013 I was finishing my early childhood education diploma, and the diploma program briefly touched on force in nature school programs in Denmark, and that really piqued my interest, because having grown up in pretty intimate connection with the Land through my family, both my settler Canadian family, as well as my indigenous family, it just aligned with what I was hoping for my career in early childhood. So I ended up finding on Facebook, big Facebook user back in 2013 I found a group in Manitoba, because my community is about 40 minutes from the Manitoba border, so they're kind of my closest hub. And I found this group in Winnipeg, and they were called the Manitoba Nature Summit. And I thought, Oh, I really want to go to that. It's for early years, educators, kindergarten teachers. It's a weekend event. You can go and create networks and build relationships. Great program. They're still doing it every second year in Winnipeg. It's just it's a great time. So I went all by myself, not knowing anyone, and that's when I met one of my favorite people, Mavis Lewis Webber. She's a big heavy hitter in Winnipeg, big community builder. She had taken the Forest and Nature School course and was doing a workshop on what it was all about, and sharing information with people, and her and I just made such an important connection, and she really encouraged me to take the course. So in 2015 it was offered in Winnipeg as a residential course, which was kind of fun, because it was like going to summer camp, but again, you got to sleep over in bunk in bunkies with your camp friends and spend time playing outside during the day. And I attended the course, and Mavis was there, and she was really great in making me feel comfortable because I didn't know anybody, and I built some a real community of practice while I was there, I think because it was like a sleepover course, and we were spending so much time together. So I really value the relationships that I made while I was there, and I'm so thankful for the networking and just spreading of information that made us was doing, because she really brought me into the course.

Monika: 14:05

That sounds like a lovely, lovely experience. And I think with the five days on the land in the current iteration, there are times when people do kind of bunk up on site where possible and have their own little summer camp experience. And I know for me as a facilitator, sometimes I'm like, I want to be part of part of that fun, but I also need to sleep more and be prepared. So what was the experience of the course like, what are maybe, you know, two things that you feel were like really kind of nourished or supported your journey, and maybe one or two things that maybe made you reflect, or you felt perhaps were missing along, whether it's similar or different to what Sinéad had shared.

Kay Rasmussen: 14:49

So that week was a really interesting week. I didn't feel that I could bring my full self to the course that was a that was a big thing for me. It could have just been some nerves at the beginning, but the more time I spent with the more time I spent there, I realized, oh, maybe I can't talk about my experiences with my family on the Land as openly as I'd like to and I didn't, there were other Indigenous people there, Metis and First Nation at the course and our lived experiences in relationship to the Land wasn't given any space. There wasn't traditional knowledge or language or any history. It was just, it was just about the course content. But I liked that, because I did go to get content. I wanted to learn what it meant to be a Forest and Nature School educator, because I wanted to start practicing and wanted the tools to do that. But when I left the course, they went, Whoa, wait a second. I can't I can't separate these two things, you know, being a forest and nature school teacher in relationship with the Land and history of what's now known as Canada, like I can't separate all those pieces, so I didn't feel there was space for it, and it actually took me a really quite a few years to articulate it in my relationship with CNAC. But the positive pieces were I did leave feeling like I had a community that I had people I could lean on and turn to and ask for help. And some of them ended up coming and working with me in my forest and nature school program that I created, still in contact with many of them today. Consider them some of the best friendships I've ever created. So that community of practice was the best thing for me from the Forest and Nature School course. But there were just parts of, parts of it that were just missing.

Monika: 17:14

I think what you spoke to and Sinéad touched it, touched on it. Sinéad in your in your own way, I think often for folks who are marginalized in different ways around identity, I've mentioned before, in a space where it's like, you know, sometimes we know we belong in a space, and it sounds like you knew you belong there, but we don't necessarily fit in, and It's like a bit of this nuance of No, no, I have like, I should be here. This is a space for me. I belong here, someone, noone can take that away, and yet I don't quite fit in, because there are these pieces that are missing or that I can't bring forward, or that there's an unspoken tension that maybe that has to do with our marginalized identity, or our social like our social location. And that's a bit of what I was hearing from UK, where you belonged. You did this. Have have this community kind of always aware of this little, not little piece, but actually quite large piece, and that that is something. And Sinéad, you talking about it from your know, you were identifying as a white settler, but still, like this piece that you had learned about and and sat with you, and that can that's often like a lifelong grapple or struggle, I would say, for forfolks who are marginalized i n societies that they live in and their contexts. And then for folks who are committed to social justice or work in that area, Petra, I'm wondering if you want to add something,

Petra: 18:52

You know, I just wanted to ask a question, actually, it's okay, which is so you both took the course so Sinéad, it must have been 2012 and 2013. Yeah, 2013 and Kay, 2015 I think you said, and then so smash cut, then to 2017 and you were both invited to become part of our first facilitation team. And actually, Kay was also Mavis, who put your name forward. And Mavis might have put your name forward to Sinéad. I remember hearing about both of you from her, I think, with, yeah, with like, real excitement and endorsement as like, Oh, these are real kind of movers and shakers and thinkers that that need to be part of this. So I'm curious. Like, so why did you accept that invitation, and was there anything different at that time in 2017 or like, what were the tensions you were experiencing at that time. Were they different, or were they similar? Were they growing? Can you speak more to that time of things? Maybe I'll start with you. Sinéad,

Sinéad: 20:15

Yeah, I think I remember. I remember that time. Yeah, what? Well, there was the gathering, the opportunity to gather and connect. I remember staying in the hotel. I think that's when I first met you, Kay. We stayed in hotel nearby, and we yeah, just, you know, I think what's interesting is similar to what Kay even said like, and I've said it even since then, and even to this day, I would say that when I'm in conversation with folks at CNAC, I feel more in community with everybody that I'm chatting with or working with than I do In any other aspects of my life. And I felt like, like that was a place where people were having like, Yeah, it did. Felt like connecting with people who were interested in this work and seeing it go forward. I loved I had been doing workshops here and there. And I loved that aspect of it. I loved so I was just, I was just had, I was curious. I felt like it felt like a good fit for, like, what my interests were and there was so much learning that I that, like, from that time together where. And I think that's I mean that often comes up even now as a as a big desire for facilitators, that opportunity to learn from each other in person. And I think, like it also, at the time, felt very like there was a lot of uncertainty right like, I think it was shared right off the bat, like we don't know what you're getting into, and we don't know what you you're getting into. And like, will you just join us for this ride? And so I felt, you know, it just felt like that was the right place for me to be as far as what my interest and my work was and what I was passionate about.

Petra: 22:18

So, yeah, and before we move on to Kay, like, were there, were there tensions that you were experiencing, or concerns like, Did you see those same concerns about, like, there's, there are really important pieces missing here. Did you feel able to to name that in those in that early time?

Sinéad: 22:53

I think, yeah, well, I guess there's so many things now that we are learning about, like, where people are come from, and whose land they're joining from, that's now a part it feels like that's almost part of, like, how we approach this work, and that wasn't there. So I've learned, I mean, Kay, I mean, I've often referenced you too throughout my journey with CNAC too, and how much I've learned from you and and I think that, yeah, that that Kay, like, I feel like Kay was, you know, you were naming those things and and even at that time, you know, those early days as well. So I, yeah, I just, you know, it almost like in that time, I felt like what you had to say was what was most important for for me. And I don't know, yeah, I guess that's what, that's how I was approaching that at the time. And, yeah,

Petra: 23:57

Yeah. So you like what I hear in that is that you you recognize that there were some missing pieces, and you already, at that time, felt that it was most important to center Indigenous voices, Kay being sort of the most visible or vocal person within with indigenous, indigenous with Indigenous ancestry and culture. Um, yeah, because when I reflect on that time, as you know your new team manager also thrown in, like no management experience, had no idea what I was doing. Um, was that like I could perceive tension in that gathering, but I didn't know what it was about, and I didn't know I don't think I was not educated enough in social justice and history and dynamics of oppression to to understand what maybe was at play. And I just remember feeling like, huh, there's a lot going on here, and I don't really know what's happening. So, Kay, I'm curious what your your experience of that time was, and I know we had a a conversation severalmonths later where, you know, you came onto that phone call, I think being ready to quit and and I came onto that phone call being like, I think we have to let Kay go, because she never comes to the meetings. And we ended that conversation in such a different place. So maybe you can talk about, like, what your experience was of those first maybe that first year even, and then what kept you around. Because when I look back at that time, I do always marvel at, like, wow, you like, stuck with us, and I really appreciate that.

Monika: 26:03

And just before, just before you do that, Kay, you can start with, why did you agree to sign on as a facilitator? Just going back to that and then linking to how you almost didn't and then did stick around. Thanks,

Kay Rasmussen: 26:18

Sure. Um, it really the reason I wanted to belong to the CNAC team was about relationships and I'm a pretty loyal person, and I believe I was taught that relationships are important, and the relationships I had made with like Mavis in particular, and then in meeting some of the other members of the CNAC team, I just really wanted to be a part of what I saw kind of as a movement, because it was still just kind of so fresh, and nothing was really concrete yet. So what brought, what made me say yes, was the relationships I created in 2015 and I valued and cared about those relationships, and wanted to see what, what would happen, and the first year was was definitely a challenge. So I had attended a few of our teleconference meetings. They used to be on telephone and not on Zoom. And the meetings I would leave them almost like shaking a little bit, and I was like, what what's happening in my body? Like, why am I feeling so emotional about what I'm hearing? And it kept circling back to when I had gone to the in person gathering after I got the invitation. I had brought part of like my bundle at the time with me, and I remember putting out offerings and tobacco at the forest and nature school site there, and building a relationship with starting that relationship with the site, because I figured I would be coming back regularly, and I just kept thinking about that tobacco first and how I was a teaching from my family. And it wasn't. It just wasn't a part of any of the conversations. The calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission weren't part of any conversations. There was no truth talk. It was just very much, let's train educators to take children out on the Land. And I, in my mind, was seeing that as the potential of causing a lot of harm if we weren't uncovering some of the history and talking about the history of what's now known as Canada and the and so I remember the phone call with Petra, because I remember seeing Petra is like, Why aren't you coming to the meetings? And I said, Well, I'm afraid I'm going to cause my family and other Indigenous people harm if I keep coming, because I'm I can go give people the tools to be forest and nature, school practitioners, and take children all across Canada, out on the land without having this any background on land histories and just dark history of residential schools and Sixties Scoop and this cultural genocide that has taken place in Canada like this. This has to be a part, of course, it has to be talked about. And I was afraid of of causing harm. And we had a great like, what ended up being able to talk pretty honestly and I and I decided to keep sticking around. Yeah, that's I'll leave it at that.

Petra: 30:13

Thank you. Kay, thanks for sharing that. I still feel like really emotional thinking back to that conversation, I remember it really vividly as well, and just feeling like really energized actually, after we spoke about like what we could do and what we needed to do, and I feel so grateful to you for sticking around and for just like continuing. I always feel like it was just like this continual knock at the door that like, and even then, like you describing that phone call, I don't think I fully understood even what you were saying and asking for, you know, I think it took years still, of of my own learning to finally, like, fully hear what you were saying. And I And actually, you know, I really connected to that time. Then in 2019 when we were gathering together, to be like, okay, what would it mean to decolonize like, what does that even entail? And I felt like that was really the first time that that I was able to fully hear you and others who had been like knocking at that door since, since 2017

Monika: 31:50

I just want to take a moment to also to acknowledge you know, we're recording this via zoom, and we have video, and I'm not sure what the experience will be for the listeners. What you hear in Kay's voice when she shared that story, but you know, I felt, I don't know if you were going back to that, that time, but again, just it's you talked about relationships and relationships with the organization. But what else came up very strongly, is obviously relationship with Land and relationship with your identity, your communities, ancestry, and how much of your engagement in this work was has and continues to be really personal and really like, deeply connected to who you are in your place on this Land. And I don't want to put words in your in your mouth or presume, but that's kind of what I was, what I was sensing. And to me, it also speaks to like the reason the importance of having centering indigenous peoples voices and experiences in this work, because it starts like it starts from there, from a deep place within, as opposed to just that extractive relationship that you described, Kay that you didn't want to reproduce, at the harm of of your own, of your own people, And that Sinead you talked about, you know, learning about, is that a fair kind of description, Kay, in terms of, like, how strongly you felt, you have felt connected to this,

Kay Rasmussen: 33:35

Yeah, And I think it wasn't only like my First Nations. Um, family is is mixed as well. So they're like European and First Nation as well. And it was also my Canadian settler side of the family. Um, all of them had, had taught me this very interesting. Sometimes the perspectives were contrasting, like they weren't always aligning with what my mother's family taught me and my father's family taught me. But one thing that they all taught me was relationship with the Land. Like when we go on the land, there's certain protocols and there's certain things we do to care and have relationship. And so I knew from my own lived experience that it was possible for children, like all children, new immigrant children as well, or newcomers to Canada that that there could be a deeper level to this work that was could be possible for all people now living in what's called Canada. And so I thought we got to get to the truth and talk about some of the truth. And at the time, there wasn't a lot of space for truth telling. It was that atmosphere wasn't there. And so I felt so passionate about this idea of of children learning more of the truth and coming to relationship with Land in a different way. And that's why I just kept staying and and I think the work, I don't mean to jump ahead at all, but I think what we've done over the past few years is moving closer and closer towards that, that idea that all children, not just what Sinéad was talking about earlier with like just white children in particular. That's what a lot of the literature was focused on in the early 2000s that all children could have the opportunity to build relationship in a meaningful in a meaningful way. So I would like to acknowledge my family, both indigenous and non Indigenous family members, for those those teachings, because that's what really was fueling my that was that's what was coming to the table at that time with CNAC, and so I am grateful for my family's teachings and what they gave me.

Unknown: 36:27

I really appreciate you. You doing that and acknowledging and clarifying what I what I said that's beautiful, and it reminds me of a session where you introduced the terminology is escaping me right now, and I feel horrible about it. It's similar to two eyed seeing ethical please remind me ethical space that that's Chloe Dragon Smith, who is another CNAC facilitator. During this time her and I were deeply exploring ethical spaces of engagement, because we're both mixed race, Indigenous settler women, and so it was great to have her there as well. When Petra said there were other voices knocking on that door, it wasn't it wasn't me. There are others who were here, and so, yeah, ethical spaces of engagement is still strongly what I believe in and seen act did open the door to hear about, to hear about that as well. Thank you. And so Petra, thinking about 2019, forward in some of the projects and the work that CNAC was engaging in you share a little bit about what the intention was with, sort of the quote, unquote, decolonization projects, in community consultation projects, and that is what we are discussing through This podcast series and and then maybe we can get Sinéad and Katie to reflect back on that.

Petra: 38:07

Yeah, I'll just maybe start well, I mean, so interestingly, with the decolonization project, we were invited to apply for funding around decolonization from TD, you know, ironically enough, and it was the first time that instead of just puttingtogether a project proposal at the leadership level, it occurred to us, well, actually, no, it didn't occur to us. Chloe said, you can't. You can't just do that like, you can't. This is a, this is a prime example of colonization to be like, here's our project proposal about decolonization, which we wrote as white people. Can you give it? Give it a quick look over as an Indigenous person and, like, give us the thumbs up. So it was really the first time that we were like, right, okay, we need to engage in a different kind of process. And at that time, it was like, we don't even know what that process might look like. So we gathered. We just asked, like, who could be part of guiding this or Co-developing this funding application? And so, yeah, so, like, as Kay said, there were lots of voices and I, and I also just want to interimly say, because Sinéad, I don't think you were part of that particular table of folks who kind of stepped forward. But you, you know, I gave lots of credit to Sinéad for or to Kay for my learning, but you also like, I had a chance to facilitate with you in 2017 and in your like, gentle way, it was almost like if Kay was knocking at the door, you were like flighting articles under the door to me and like modeling a very different and very gentle kind of questioning about how I was thinking that I yeah, I credit you a lot with also my kind of learning and, like, waking up. So I appreciate you for that as well. And then so many of the voices who stepped forward to guide us in developing this decolonization project proposal. Because, you know, at that time, I think that was, for me, at least, like, one of the biggest and most painful wake ups to be like, Oh, we have been causing harm. Like we are not neutral in how we've been doing this work. We we actually have been causing harm in our baby steps towards including Indigenous voices, because at that time we had been, you know, inviting elders and knowledge keepers to open courses, but it was still a very transactional kind of relationship. So though that those baby steps weren't enough. So that was the context in which the decolonization project was being developed and the community consultation project. And interestingly, like looking back now, those two projects, the way we were thinking about them were actually like in opposition. From the start, like, you know, we were like on at one table talking about, like, how can we decolonize CNAC, and what does that even mean? And on the other hand, we were developing a project that we thought would end with us advocating for licensing of forest and nature schools and and in the process of of carrying out both of those projects, realize like actually, this attempt To define quality practice as the basis for licensing is a colonial and potentially very harmful project. So some foreshadowing of this podcast series where we'll like explain all of that in more detail. But my biggest takeaway, and I think Steph would say that too, another one of our full time team members is that our biggest takeaway from that circle who were guiding us around the decolonization project was you need to build relationships with local elders, and They need to guide you on on what the path forward is. And so we did that, and it really did change my understanding, like, yeah, like to, I would say, if I'm, if I was to look back and characterize, you know, what was really different about free, you know, 2020, really at CNAC is like, yeah, we, we were working on and with the land, but we never really talked about the land, which is something that was articulated To me in that sort of concise way, by Lise Brown from momenta in Winnipeg, and Adrian Alfonso from Wei we capo, First Nation, who, again, like saw the potential of CNAC and was like, but you're not centering the land which is indigenous. And in order to center the Land, you need to center indigenous voices. So that was a big part. And then the other part was like transactional versus reciprocal relationships, like I just had no idea what reciprocity meant with land and with First peoples, and getting to know our elder, Annie Smith, St George, here on Algonquin territory, helped deepen that understanding for me and for CNAC about, like, what does it mean to be in a reciprocal relationship? So I don't know if that's like, Kay and Sinéad, if that's how you would also kind of, because we're trying to paint a picture here of like, what was it like? What was the the context of this change? Like, where did the the momentum, for the for the change that needed to happen at CNAC and that is now in process. Where did it come from? So that's how I would describe where it came from. Does that land with the two of you?

Monika: 45:21

Maybe I'll try to rephrase that. What have been some turning points or key moments for you at CNAC in the development journey and Sinéad, maybe we'll go to you first and then end off with Kay. If that's all right.

Sinéad: 45:42

We gathered as a facilitator team the second time. I think it was the very next year, in 2018 and I remember that being a time when where Kay shared, we had, it was like a it was like a conversation like those conversations were being had as a group, and it was like a truth sharing, and so that I felt like that was an important piece. And then when, so what? Yeah, and I, and I can certainly feel like I that idea, or that process for earlier courses, where it did feel very kind of tokenized and transactional with the relationship with elders towards I felt like what was really pivotal were, well, two things, like when we went online and offered the courses online. I got to we got to dive into the relationships that were shared by Lise and Adrian on in a way. So we were diving into those relationships online before gathering on the land. And so there was a lots of resources coming in, and like Kay and Chloe's references and work around ethical space and learning about ethical space, and so that was coming in to my learning and and conversations with practitioners. And then when, I guess it was in 2022 that's when there was an offering of a new facilitation guide and a new approach to how we were going to offer the course. And for me, that feels like the most powerful change, because of the way that we were being guided as facilitators to support the course was that every topic and every relationship holds that there's indigenous wisdom that that carries this relationship, that that can support this relationship, And and that relationship building with the elder knowledge chair, who was going to be joining the course was centered, and it was so described so beautifully by Jacqueline, that the idea is that rather than us connecting and then the elder knowledge chair like kindof being part of the course, we're wrapping the course around them. And I had this visual of a blanket, and it just felt just Just what was has needed to happen and and so that opportunity through the courses and building those relationships for myself like this, this journey of learning like to be, to be able to be in these courses and to spend, you know, days and hours hearing and learning directly from local knowledge sharers has I just feel like that's I feel like it's Very I feel very privileged to be in that position. I just wish everybody would be able, would welcome that time, you know, with just with that learning and how so I'd say like that, for me, that this approach to how we support understanding and diving into these relationships through the through the guidance of who's joining us, and not just the indigenous knowledge chairs, but participants in the course as well. Yeah, it's interesting to talk about, like, where we've come and where CNAC is going. And I also feel like I wouldn't be, you know, where I might be on that path, that journey of reconciliation and learning about truth, if it weren't for the courses like, I really wonder about that too. Like that relationship with CNAC as well. So, and I think Kay, like, what you've you. Like, you really like, that, vision and insight and like, yeah, I just, I don't know how to credit or offer like, the gratitude that I also share for like, I, like, I, anytime I do this work, I feel like you're here with me and and, I carry your voice and your guidance with me all the time. So I just, yeah, it's just, I just feel so grateful, because I feel like I still, I know that we have a long way to go as well, and but I do, I do feel and see the change, and that's what I feel grateful that that's happening.

Kay Rasmussen: 50:38

Yeah, Oh, thanks, Sinéad. I also have learned so much for me so again that just I love how we've had space as staff at CNAC to go to hard places in our relationships and like be encouraged to have space to just grow with each other. That's been something I've definitely enjoyed about belonging to CNAC. So So key points for me, when I was like, Oh, I think things are shifting, and I think things are changing, because I had, kind of in this voice, kind of behind the scenes, hey, we need to build relationships. It can't be my family and elders and knowledge shares from my family. This has to be seen. Act. Has to do this work. And they and and I remember when Fred knowledge, Sheriff Fred MacGregor, came to the course at the Ottawa forest and nature school, and his wife was with him as well. And I just saw them kind of sitting by themselves at a picnic table. And so I went over and introduced myself an Anishinaabe Mohawk and kind of how lots of indigenous peoples introduce themselves, where they're from, who their families are, that kind of thing. And we actually ended up having a connection. They had come to ceremony in my in community here in Northwestern Ontario before, and knew some of my family members here, so that was a really interesting connection. But I remember we were chatting for a while, and when we came to do the opening of the day, Fred acknowledged how he felt spoken to and cared for and by me, just going over and talking with him, and I think that that opened up some insight into other CNAC staff that, oh, this relationship isn't transactional. It's actually about like just going and sitting at the picnic table, chatting about chatting about life, and just hanging out with one another and building relationships, and we don'thave to be scared of one another and the life paths we've had, and that we can be in relationship together. And so I think that was a point where maybe CNAC saw moving more towards relationships. And then I just kept pushing that agenda and pushing that, pushing pushing that, and pushing that. And then I remember another time with Fred where I asked him if he knew about about the Land there, like I was really curious about this land at the Ottawa forest and nature school site. And, and he shared it used to be a powwow grounds. And I was like, Oh my gosh, wow. And so we were talking about pow wows, because my family goes on the pow wow trail as well. And, and I remember some CNAC staff going, Wait. Why wouldn't Why didn't we know that? Why? Why wasn't that shared with us? And and he said, Well,no one asked me. And I remember some CNAC staff going, Whoa. What are we doing? Like that was a big another, a big aha moment. So when I think of like those key turning moments in my mind from that storying of my own experiences. Those were like two so I really want to acknowledge Fred. We had some good times. We had a fire, building competition, me and him and cook some click and it was really fun. And and relationships as well, with Annie and her partner getting to meet them at the Ottawa forest in nature school, those relationships that were just starting to be built. That's when I saw my pushing of this kind of like knocking at the door, knocking at the door, knocking at the door, kind of trying to. Hold the door open for other Indigenous people and for their voices to come through the door at CNAC can be part of it. I saw that happening, and I felt myself holding the door open for a long time, and then my whole hope was that I would be able to slowly, kind of stop knocking as hard at the door as CNAC welcomed other indigenous people of color into their practice, and that that has happened, and we have indigenous facilitators and leaders in in the organization, and it feels good for me to not have my voice centered as much. And I even with this podcast, I was really like, Should I do it? Should I not do it? I don't want to be that voice anymore. I want, I wanted to make spaces for other voices and and that's what I see. I know I said at the beginning that I'm a facility, like one of the course facilitators at CNAC, but I just see myself as a I don't want to be a lead anything. I just kind of want to help be there and support quietly, kind of behind the scenes now, and started knocking so hard at the door. So yeah, those were the key moments for me from that story.

Petra: 56:31

Well, thank you both for sharing that. It's actually so lovely to hear that from your perspective. Because Monika, I mean, you alluded to this like it is really hard work, I think, for all of us. And so when things feel difficult, at least for me, it feels like really personally painful, and it feels really healing to kind of look backwards with the two of you. And thank you for painting the picture for us. Of of you know your relationship with CNAC from 2013 all the way to today, I think we've we've set the scene for the rest of this series where we'll dive more deeply into this, these points that you've raised around, you know, relationship building and the changes to the course, the changes to the facilitation guide and the seven relationships, and where we see ourselves going as a as an organization in the future. So listeners, stay tuned for what is sure to be a thrilling podcast journey. And thank you to Monika for co-hosting with me and opening us up. And thank you again. So much Sinéad and Kay for sharing your story and being with CNAC Since 2013 and 2015 Yeah, I'm so grateful for for all of the time and lessons and laughs that we've had together over the last few years.

Monika: 58:17

This episode was part of a special podcast series called learning to listen CNAC reconciliation and practice. Thank you for listening to learn more about our work at the Child and Nature Alliance of Canada and to access resources and professional development opportunities for supporting outdoor play and learning. Follow us on Instagram or Facebook and check out our website, www.childnature.ca, the Child and Nature Alliance of Canada is the national charitable nonprofit organization headquartered on the unceded and unsurrendered traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe. If you learned something from this podcast, consider supporting our work at www.childnature.ca www dot, child, nature.ca, forward, slash, donate, hyphen, now. Thanks.