The Child and Nature Alliance Podcast
The Child and Nature Alliance Podcast
Indigenous Consultation/Lack Thereof
In this episode of Learning to Listen: CNAC’s Reconciliation in Practice, hosts Petra and Monica speak with Marc St. Dennis, former CNAC project lead, and Heth Wilson, CNAC’s Executive Director. They reflect on CNAC’s early missteps in engaging with Indigenous Peoples, the discomfort of confronting privilege, and the harm of euro-western impositions. They discuss how CNAC is working toward meaningful, reciprocal relationships through humility and accountability.
Hello and welcome to this special series in the Child and Nature Alliance of Canada podcast called learning to listen. CNAC's reconciliation and practice. I'm Monica Goodluck, and I'm
Marc:Petra Eperjesi, and we're your co hosts.
Monika:Learning to listen is all about our gradual and ongoing journey with truth and reconciliation as a white settler led organization working to support outdoor play and learning on stolen indigenous land. In this episode, I'm joined by Petra alongside Marc St Dennis, former Project Lead with CNAC and Heather Wilson CNAC's Executive Director, as theyshare several oops and aha moments they had in evolving CNAC's engagement with Indigenous peoples they talk about having started from a privileged and presumptive innocence about forest and nature school as nothing but good,and really not realizing that their early relationships with Indigenous elders and knowledge sharers were pretty much transactional and tokenistic. Petra, MarC and Heth also reflect on the ways in which they started to see their own ignorance and privilege and the harm that was being inflicted by an imposition of a Euro-Western way of being and learning on the land. Together, they discuss how CNAC managed to wrestle with discomfort and kept moving through guilt, shame and decision paralysis to consciously reposition the organization on a path towards collaboration and meaningful reciprocal relationships with Indigenous peoples. There's a good dose of humility in this episode. Take a listen. Welcome Heth and Marc to this second episode in our podcast series. I think we're gonna have an interesting conversation. Let's get started with introductions. Heth,
Heather Wilson:Thanks. I'm Heth Wilson. I'm the Executive Director of Child and Nature Alliance of Canada. Currently, I've been with theorganization since 2017 and stepped into the ED role in 2020. I am speaking to you from the stolen territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe nation. I am originally from the UK, so I am a settler and visitor on on these lands, and I'm very grateful to this Land for guiding and supporting me. I live here with my husband, who is Jamaican, and 16 year old son, and I'm really grateful to be with you today, given the content of what we're chatting about today, I will just borrow some language from the biography I created with the team at CNAC to say, I do feel a responsibility as a white settler from Europe to repudiate the concepts used to justify European sovereignty over Indigenous peoples and today and for the last few years, I've been committed to doing this by supporting the CNAC team in all of their brave and genuine work and being accountable through specific calls to action. 10, 26, 60 and 90 supporting all calls to action that are important to CNAC and our team members. It's really great to be with you all today. Thank you.
Monika:Thank you, Heather, that's a great sort of preview about some of the conversation we'll have and how CNAC got to to this point. Mark, I invite you to introduce yourself to our listeners.
Marc:Hey, everyone. My name is Marc St Dennis. I use they/them, pronouns. I'm a mixed background individual, mostly settlers in my ancestry. I'm the former project lead for Forest School Canada. Currently, I work for the federal government, and I'm advising them on some reconciliation based projects. My most important role, though, is that of a parent. I have a couple of young kids. One of them is actually turning five today. The other is seven. And in terms of what brings me here to this conversation, not just my professional background, but there's kind of two things in my life that I'm really passionate about. One is social justice in all of its forms, and that includes reconciliation between settlers on this land and the first peoples who have lived here since time immemorial. And the other thing is nurturing my own relationship with the Land and trying to pass on what I've learned to my kids.
Monika:Thank you. It sounds like really great people to have had in your case, mark with CNAC, and Heth to continue to have at at CNAC. And I'd like to start with something that Kay Rasmussen, who is a lead facilitator with with CNAC, and has been with the organization for a long time, that she shared in the first episode, something she appreciates is that there'sspace to go to hard places and space to grow with each other at CNAC. And this conversation is about CNAC's evolution, and maybe before that, maybe I'll say the word stagnation. But we can cut we can talk about that more around consultation and meaningful engagement with Indigenous peoples and with with Land as Indigenous. Heather, I'd love to start with you. Yeah, you joined CNAC in 2017 I think, as Director of Operations, before stepping into an interim and then an official executive director role over 2020, when you joined CNAC, well, first, what, what awareness or lens did you bring as an individual in regards to engagement with Indigenous peoples and truth and reconciliation ss it relates to Forest and Nature School?
Heather Wilson:Yeah, I um, when I first came to the work, I was very white in my perspective and approach, and it was actually through my son's engagement in forest school that I and my husband's comfort around it that I began to learn, right this experience, the comfort that I feel isn't the comfort that everybody feels. My husband is black, and our son is, I advise, as black also. So then, you know, as a parent, began to view this work through my child's experience. So I credit a lot of that in terms of challenging my whiteness, in my approach to the work. You know, a lot of people hear what we do and immediately think that it's amazing and beneficial, and there should be more of it. And I think in the establishment of CNAC and the Forest School movement that we had claimed at the time to to bring across Canada was only a positive thing, and there needed to be more of it. And through my family's lived experience and being more attuned to others lived experience, realized, you know, there were definitely, in the Canadian context, other considerations to think about in this imposing a British or European program ideology here, those things aren't challenged in the European context, sothey weren't a part of the considerations in Bringing it to Canada, it was like it works there, it would work here, and it did primarily among white families and in communities where it wouldn't necessarily be challenged. And it was through our work, as you've already said, with people like Kay and the our other facilitators, and also, when Marc came on board, asking really meaningful questions, we began to realize, I think, there had already been considerations that this was potentially harmful, and those were just as an organization, they were not engaged with and stepping into the role and with the support of Petra and Steph, Stephanie Smith, our colleague, we felt uncomfortable with that being not centered in our work. So I'm not sure if that helps to answer your question. I'll stop there so because we'll explore other other questions that I can contribute to. But it was really about, yeah, acknowledging that the model that we had in place was European and challenging the assumption that it was amazing and didn't need to be thought about in a trulyCanadian concept.
Monika:And so what was the model in regards to what was happening in terms of engagement of Indigenous folks. I recall Kay and Sinead talking about, like having an elder do sort of an opening, but that maybe being it in the beginning, like a bit more of a...
Heather Wilson:Yeah, there wasn't even that in the beginning it was we would as CNAC, we would show up and do a course, and forest schools would open and run. And at the prompting of those people who came to this work in our in the very beginning, who were attracted to this work were coming with their own worldview and had made recommendations. And so to start with, yes, it was invite an elder for an hour to do an opening at the beginning and then perhaps do a closing so it was, I would say, probably pretty performative when we started to bring consideration of Indigenous context to this work.
Monika:Was the approach sort of like, oh, this is a nice thing to do. Like, yes, let's have somebody do an opening. Or do you feelsort of early on, or was there already a bit of a deeper engagement? Because sometimes it's, I mean, it is the performance, and it still happens now, where organizations and businesses are like, we need, you know, the indigenous person, or we need this person to, like, do this thing, because that's the check box, or the thing that we that that's right without actually going a little bit deeper. Petra, did you have thoughts on that?
Petra:Yeah, I would say we didn't think we were being performative. You know, I think so. I've been with CNAC Since 2014 and in my experience at that time, there was no consideration about being on Indigenous land or having Indigenous voice part of the conversation. And then there was, sort of like a, someone once described it as, like a pulling of the onion moment. And you sort of like you pull and you pull and you pull, and then you sort of fall over with the force of realizing,like, what, what's under the ground, kind of, and then you start to peel that onion. So there, there were many sort of moments of pulling the onion for me where I was like, Oh, no. Like, we really need to have Indigenous people present. And then it was like, oh, we can't just invite one Indigenous person to, like, do whatever they want. And then it was like, we really need to have an elder open the course. And then it was like, oh, we need to have Indigenous voices present all the time through throughout the course. And then before that, it was like, or after that, it was like, not just at the course all the time. So it was for me, it's like these layers and these kind of increasing steps back to see a bigger and bigger and bigger picture, but at each stage in that walk backwards, for me, I thought we were doing the right thing or doing good and and then it was only, it's always only in hindsight where it's like, okay, but that's not enough. So I don't think it was like in intentionally performative, which I think is important for not just, not just us, but like because I think there's probably a lot of people out there who don't think that they're being performative or tokenistic. Have you were going to add on to that?
Heather Wilson:Yes, I was just let me my perimenopause brain is very fickle, and I had it twice.
Monika:Yes, yeah, I'll bring something I'll bring something forward. Petra, as as you spoke, you know, and in other conversations, I think something that's interesting is this was also, I want to frame this within of the context of this being, and correct me if I'm wrong, like white settler voices right, or coming from a white settler perspective of, oh, this is what we need to do and like, oh, we need to be deeper and and even the opportunity, like the privilege of being able to engage in this learning at your own pace and intentionality such, it's such an interesting thing. It's like we were not intentionally being performative, but we still were, and that there's opportunity there for for harm to exist, but it's also part of that learning journey and I'm I'm curious, particularly Petra and Heth for now, Mark, I promise I will come to you soon in the timeline, you know if you felt tension, or were aware of tension, or the impact of this journey on facilitators that CNAC had, that were that that were Indigenous and or the Indigenous folks that you were engaging to open or to participate have is that something that you can speak to or reflect on what I've just said.
Heather Wilson:I'll let Petra speak to that, because she's been holding a lot of those relationships.
Petra:Yes, there was tension, and for a really long time, I did not understand the tension like I didn't know the extent of what I didn't know and and I think CNAC was not a safe enough place for people to fully share. So I remember, and Kay referred to this in the last episode as well, about a knowledge keeper who we had been engaging with, probably for like,a year or 18 months, and I didn't understand. I felt like an awkwardness, and I didn't know what it was about or and, like,sort of knew what it was about, but I didn't really know how to move through it and and then at a certain point, like we learned that the Land that we were on, both our office and the forest school that we had been running, was a land of, like, really great significance to Anishinaabe people. And that I was, like, really upset about that. And I remember sayingto this knowledge keeper, like, Why didn't you tell us? And he said, Why didn't you didn't ask? And I was like, Oh, we didn't even, I didn't even think to ask. So that was really like a watershed moment where I was like, okay, it's time to ask,and it's not anybody else's job to tell me what I don't know. Yeah, that there's that privilege of not knowing, and I want to acknowledge too that like the recognition of the depths of my privilege came in waves as well. And the early waves of that came with a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth on my own part, and it so it took a lot of years of practice to be like, okay, the the weeping and the guilt doesn't really get me anywhere. It's like time to move on from that. And so to I think that was the moment then when we started to ask really uncomfortable questions of people like Kay and of the elders and knowledge keepers that we had been working with. And just like I remember being on the phone with an elder and being like so we have recently realized, like, how much we don't know, and that the way that we've been interacting with you may have been causing you harm and and understanding that, like, nobody said anything because it wasn't safe to say anything. And it was our job to, kind of like do the changing so that those conversations could happen. And so some really uncomfortable conversations ensued internally and and similarly, like we had done courses with First Nations communities, and they were really difficult, and I went in with a certain degree of humility, knowing that there was a lot I didn't know, and and there being a lot of tension and then, but just not really knowing where to go with that tension and and also, like, majorly putting my foot in my mouth several times. Yeah, I'll stop there, because I feel like I'm rambling a bit.
Monika:I do want to ask, you said, you know, asking uncomfortable questions and having uncomfortable conversations as well internally. And I want to ask uncomfortable for who?
Petra:I mean, maybe for all involved, which, which were like white settlers and Indigenous facilitators, or white settler facilitators who had been like urging us to pay attention.
Monika:Mark wants to add to that.
Marc:Yeah, Heather, Heather and Petra, you've both touched on this idea of discomfort and having uncomfortable conversations. And prior to my work with CNAC, I worked for a First Nations led organization, and part of my role there was to visit, you know, various communities that could be professional communities, schools, universities, workplaces, a whole bunch of different contexts, and talk to them about reconciliation and what that looks Like in Canada. And one of the first things I always started with was to talk about the discomfort that you will feel engaging in this particular conversation, because it's incredibly difficult. I mean, we're not, we're not just talking about, you know, changing the color of a logo. We're talking about systems change, where we're talking about reflecting on all of society, not just an organization. And so what I've seen happening at CNAC is a reflection of the conversations that are happening across the country about settlers and trying to find our place here on this Land, and how exactly do we do reconciliation, and that requires facing some very uncomfortable truths. Like Petra, you touched on that you experienced it. I experienced itHeth I'm sure you experienced it as well, having to contend with, okay, here's, here's the legacy that I have inherited as asettler. And with that inheritance, there comes responsibility. So colonization has happened. Colonization continues to happen. And you can, you can see it just with within this conversation, it mean, the Forest School is a perfect example ofof colonization continuing to happen, because it was brought over from Europe in the sense of this particular style and programming, you know, curriculum, if you want to call it that, and it was just here. It's perfect, we're now the leaders in outdoor play and learning. There's nothing else to do. And then comes the realization over time that that's actually part of the colonization. We're imposing our worldview and our way of being on this Land, even though we don't have the right to do so. So facing that truth and understanding that truth is difficult, and I think a lot of people aren't there yet. That's where a lot of the pushback. Back I see comes from is folks who they hear that truth, that they have a responsibility for colonization, and they hear the truth about what happened and what continues to happen. I mean, even today, I mean, we talk a lot about residential schools, but even today, there's more First Nations, Inuit, and Metis kids in the child welfare system today than there was at the height of the residential school system. So it's still ongoing, and people don't want to accept that. They feel really uncomfortable and they want to push it away. They want to continue on with their lives without having to worry about these complicated questions that I mean, really, it's, it's a question of identity. It's a question of national identity. People don't want to feel that. It's hard, and then you have to, if you want to do this right, you have to feel it, and you have to let it energize you. Yeah, Heth, do you want to go ahead? I was gonna say too. It's, it's discomfort. And then with the discomfort come these moves to innocence, which is like, but I didn't mean to like, I think Marc you use the language of imposing, and for me, it's imposing, and the imposing displaces or erases the knowledge and expertise that was and is here, that was and is born of this Land and that Indigenous peoples of this land have been practicing for millennia. So when we bring in a European worldview and mode of being on and with the land, it's displacing that expertise and and I myself went through a period of like, well, I didn't mean to, like, It's not my fault. I didn't mean to I'm not intending to cause harm, and it doesn't matter like, it doesn't matter if you're not intending to cause harm, and we're very blind to it, because our own worldview is invisible to us. Like, I think there's a lot of people I've encountered and my myself included, like, who don't know, and I didn't know that I even have a worldview, and that is that it is a Euro-Western worldview. So I think that's some of the resistance too. Is that it's un it's uncomfortable, and we immediately move to but I didn't mean to, and we have to go past that.
Monika:Before head speaks. I just wanted to mention also, I think it, and it's a little bit of contrast with Petra what you said, is intention does matter to some degree. So it does matter somewhat that you didn't mean to, because, of course, if you meant to, that's much worse, and it's not an excuse away from responsibility and action. So yes, intention matters somewhat, but it can't take the place of understanding impact and responsibility to act. Heather, over to you.
Heather Wilson:Let's go to Mark. Mark has raised their hand.
Marc:I was just going to add on to what you've both said. What's that? That saying you can't let perfection get in the way of of good enough. I mean, and I've, I've seen this and in CNAC as well, there's decision paralysis at a certain point, with a lot of these conversations when you get, when you get to the point of accepting the reality of the situation and accepting your legacy and accepting your responsibility, then you have to deal with what next. And yeah, I think it's, it's safe to say that the intentions of everyone here are good, and the intentions of everyone in the Forest School, you know,umbrella is good. We're all trying to do something that's good. We're trying to help kids connect with the Land. You know, we're trying to help ourselves connect with the Land and at the same time, also contending with the history and the legacy. And you have to do something. You have to start moving forward, and you're going to make mistakes. You're going to say the wrong things. I've been doing this for 10 years, professionally. Really. And I make mistakes all thetime. I'll say something that is incredibly stupid, and I'll get called out for it, you know, someone will will say something which I feel incredibly privileged to have that trust, to have people actually tell me what I've done wrong, and I learn from it, and it helps me in this work, because I can then share what I've learned. And I think we, we definitely experienced that when I was working at CNAC is, is there was just Petra, you touched on this, those moments where it was like, Oh no, what have we done? And it's so easy to get caught in that, that paralysis, but you have to push through it and do something and so we would try, try something else. We would then learn that what we were doing wasn't ideal, it wasn't perfect. So we do something else, and we keep trying to go forward, you got to take steps forward, because otherwise, you're not really fixing anything. You're just leaving the status quo as is.
Monika:So can you share a couple of what those moments were are? In brief?
Marc:Yeah, I think one. Of the biggest moments for me with the work that I was doing at CNAC was we had a series of public engagement we called them Fireside Chats, and it was fascinating conversations that we had, and they were incredibly important and such valuable, valuable insight from the people who were participating. But for me, what was the most telling experience during those conversations were the people who were not there. The voices that were represented at these meetings were predominantly, if not entirely, white settlers, which is reflective of the Forest School industry as a whole. So that in itself, I guess, wasn't shocking, but the silence from the voices that were not there was incredibly loud, and that made me backtrack hard, because what we were trying to do at the time with the community consultation project was come up with, what are, you know, quality indicators for force and nature school, my understanding is you've since moved away from that particular language, which I agree is Good. But how can you do that when you only have one group of people who are only representative of the powers that already exist in our society? So that was one. we had to pause there and say, okay, we need to open this up to way more people and start talking and prioritizing the voices of the people that we haven't heard from. The second thing for me, another moment that was a really good learning opportunity, was as part of the project that that project we after realizing that we needed to bring in more voices, we wanted to create, and this was advised by an elder that we were working with Annie Smith St George, and she advised us to create an advisory circle made up of elders from across the country, representing different nations, representing different regions, and it didn't work. At least not while I was there, I spent a year trying to have conversations with elders and trying to, you know, share, this is what we're doing. This is what we're where we want to go, and this is the point of the advisory circle, and we've touched on it earlier in our conversation. And again, the silencewas absolutely deafening, and we weren't asking the right questions. We weren't we weren't starting off with, with building that, that trust, because coming, coming to coming to the to a group of you know, especially elders as a settler organization doing stuff on the Land. Obviously, there's going to be a lot of tension there and a lot of awkwardness. And I don't think we were, I don't think we were trusted yet. I don't I don't know where you are at now, but at the time, that was a pretty big indicator of we need to slow down. We still need to move forward. We can't just stop completely, but we need to slow down and we need to start asking the right questions.
Petra:Yes, I Yeah. And one of the big like, oh no moments for me, I think, was realizing why, or at least part of why, that advisory circle didn't work, which was coming to understand that the wanting to broaden the consultation was a not an afterthought, because we wanted everyone to come from the get go, but it was an afterthought in that we actually didn't ask any Indigenous people if they wanted this project. They hadn't been part of developing the project. So in that way, any and all consultation with them was an afterthought. And so it became increasingly difficult to even like we had said, like, oh okay, we're not hearing from anybody except white people. Let's broaden the consultation. Easy peasy. And then we went to broaden the consultation, and it was like, Oh, actually, no, not easy peasy, super complicated, and we're kind of hitting a wall that can't be climbed over or taken apart in a certain way. Um, can't be taken apart except with like time and trust and sort of going back to the drawing board. But sort of summed up by I, I was chatting with a woman, a First Nations woman, who I was sort of beginning to develop a relationship with, and Marc. I think you know where we are with trust in terms of of elders and Indigenous community members. It's like middling like, certainly there's a little bit more conversation, but I think we're still in the place of earning trust, understandably, and she said to me, your quality indicators have nothing to do with us. Like being educating children on the Land is who we are. And I was like, right, okay, yeah, correct. So that was another like, Huh? Okay, so where to from here, but Heth, I know you've you were going to say something.
Heather Wilson:No, Mark had the hand up. And I know Monica's got, yeah,
Monika:Yeah, before we I want to be sensitive of of time. And this is a very rich conversation I'm enjoying thoroughly. Some of what I hear is also, you know, the difference between consultation as well as an afterthought versus collaboration, which happens, it's a different type of engagement. And also just touching earlier, when you talked about, when we when I had asked the question about uncomfortable for who and as, as Petra and Marc in particular, you both spoke, I made a note here just you know, on the one side, Marc, you spoke to this a lot. It was around the discomfort of privilege,having to being uncomfortable about recognizing one's own privilege and responsibility, and then on the other side, around trust and hesitation. In this case, we're talking about different Indigenous peoples. We're engaging with a discomfort because of not feeling safe Petra, as you mentioned, and having been disappointed and tokenized. And so there's discomfort on both sides, but they're coming from very different spaces. And I appreciate Marc how you talked about this attempt with this Indigenous advisory circle, because again, there was a good intention, and you're thinking, hey, but Annie, an elder, told us to do this. It should be the right thing. It should work. We were advised by an Indigenousperson. But then, as you spoke, the reminder that the engagement work, figuring out how to make this work is actually your responsibility, right? That that that groundwork, that grappling with why, what is working, what isn't working, still remains with you. And as we've been speaking, I've been thinking about, well, why? Like, why is CNAC able to to do this, to evolve or grow in this way, to face the truth. Because some organizations would just be like, Well, we tried, and we did this things and, you know, that's sort of just like, good enough. And I was thinking about just the approach in general, with force and age to go around emerging, emergent learning and growth and that, you know, perhaps it draws people, or CNAC draws people as as staff of all sorts, who maybe lean towards learning in those, in those ways and because, because I think when people listen, it's like, Well, well, what can we do differently at our org? Or why isn't this happening here? And I'm just curious to hear more about that. Heth?
Heather Wilson:Marc I know your time is limited, so I'll open it up to you if you have anything. Yeah, I've taken a lot of notes about this. So I will start by saying this work that CNAC undertook was also, I mean 2020. Was a really big moment globally for themove to decenter whiteness and CNAC as an organization was also undertaking that work, which I think really helped build that foundation, particularly with our core team and us all coming to consensus about the direction we wanted to take CNAC in. Twinned with that, we're a very new organization still, and the thought the kind of to equate it with the move to innocence, with with Petra. The excuse had always been, we're in startup mode, we're in survival mode as an organization, which is common in that mode of starting up, we can't have these conversations like almost that it's not fair to us to have these conversations because we're in that startup mode. But in, you know, around that same time, we we really just took a look at, what does CNAC put out into the world? What do we espouse as an organization? What are we, you know, what is our vision for this organization and for the work we were in currently? And there was a real misalignment there around what we were putting out into the world and how we were operating as an organization. Weweren't being emergent. We weren't creating a healthy environment for our team members. We weren't allowing conversations to surface from the Land, essentially. So a lot of our work over the last few years is to bring those two pieces more into alignment so these conversations are one more genuine and to allow the you know team members throughout the organization to have their voices heard. So again, the work of Forest and Nature school. Don't like to use that term, but we all recognize what that is. Is as you said, Monika"emergent", and wanting to bring that into how CNAC operated as an organization, also within that startup mode, we didn't perceive ourselves as kind of national leaders. We always we felt very uncomfortable with with that kind of mental if you will. But we did recognize the power that we had, even as a small organization, to influence others. So we realized that through the work we were doing, we can influence others, and in particular, other settler, in particular, white settlers within Canada, with the work that we're doing, and it's been a really great osmosis. And again, we challenge perfectionism, but it has been a really good osmosisabout the work that we're doing. What are we learning for our time with the Land and relationship with with the people we're on the land and with the land with, and then how are we bringing that into the organization? And then how can we use our work as a core team and national organization to influence that curriculum and what we're delivering on theLand. So that's that's been a great modality to to encourage change and implement change. First and foremost, it's also about creating challenging perfectionism, like Marc said, and creating an environment where we're supporting mistakes, so we as a leadership team, recognizing when there is decision paralysis and taking I call it a more like feminist approach, where we're not being driven by typical patriarchal measurements, we're encouraging people to make mistakes. We support people in doing that, rather than imposing a way of working that centers whiteness and profit. I will also really quickly speak to what you raised as not rushing to support Petra and Marc's point so far, relationships really take time. And to embark on this work, organizations need to recognize that there is, you know, you're investing in that in a number of ways, financially, through perception of productivity. So you can't you're creating that invitation for folks to work with this, and that's something that Marc really helped us with. I'd encourage folks to read the statement on our website that Marc was instrumental in guiding us through where we're inviting people to work with us, if they so choose. That's mostly an invitation to Indigenous communities and elders, but we need to create that environment where people feel welcome to to work in in partnership, and where we can center their voice. And I will just add really quickly to that, this is where communication is key. So that statement that Mark helped us, guided us through, was critical that I would say that was like a huge onion piece for us, where we acknowledge the harm, we makea commitment in that statement, and we refer to that all the time. Marc, like it's a huge legacy you have, you helped create there, we refer to that all the time. We know our work doesn't end there, that we constantly have to, you know, move in in that direction of of action. So I would say within our communications, both internally and externally, what we've learned is transparency about our journey and our mistakes is key to be honest and humble, and also for us to take responsibility for mistakes, and also take responsibility to implement an action change.
Monika:That's so much of what this podcast series is about as well, right? All these episodes is part of that transparency, that communication and building relationship Marc. I don't know if you remember the statement. I wanted to invite you to comment on your experience of maybe designing that statement and what was happening, you know, with CNAC, the response.
Marc:Yeah. The details are a bit fuzzy, but I do remember the process behind that. So in some of my previous roles, one of theso when I was going doing workshops on reconciliation, and actually ran one of the workshops for CNAC as well. The process that I used was called touchstones of hope, and just very quickly, there's basically, it's a process for reconciliation, and it starts with truth telling. You have to, like hear the truth, and you have to accept the truth, and that's the acknowledging part. So it starts with truth telling, then it's acknowledging. So that statement was the acknowledging part of that process, because we had spent. I don't know, like a year, year and a half, truth telling internally, trying to learn the truth and place ourselves in that story as an organization. And so the statement was the acknowledging, and then after that, there's restoring and relating. So those are the four steps for the Touchstones of Hope process. They're all they're all interwoven. You have to constantly keep that truth present when you are working on restoring you have to keep all of it in mind when you're working on relating. But the point is, is that you you want to build off of that so we don't keep making the same mistakes over and over again, which is what you know, settlers in general are very prone to doing. It's about disrupting that pattern. And I think it was for for that statement, for CNAC, it was yes, it was an acknowledgement. But we're also trying to disrupt the patterns that exists, especially in, you know, the nonprofit world, just to say like, Hey, we're not doing things the quote, normal way anymore. We're trying something different, and we're inviting everyone along with us.
Monika:Yeah, disruption is hard. It's hard work. It can feel really uncomfortable, especially when you sort of choose to do it, when you don't have to do it because of your position. And what I'm hearing a lot of is what allyship really, really means, um, stepping away from perfection, you know, like moving away from perfection and making space for for mistakes and the time that it takes to build relationships and for this work to continue, and that it's little, it's little steps not getting stuck in the oh, we messed up, and also trying not to make the same mistake, or again, having an opportunity to learn from that and be honest and humble and communicate. And so much of that around social justice is important in allyship, often, often there's a rush to, kind of like, hand it over. Oh, let, let this other group, let the Indigenous folks, like, lead this and do that. But it's it's difficult work, if it's difficult and challenging and disruptive, from a place of privilege where you have resources, where you're not also faced with the realities of hate colonialism as your daily existence, and it's still difficult to do the work. You can imagine how difficult it is to do that work on your own as right now, we're talking about Indigenous peoples, but other marginalized groups or groups that experience hate or colonialism in different ways, and then even to be willing to engage in that with a group where people have power, it takes a lot of courage from the other side. And so, as you said, have like, creating that environment and putting out an invitation and just clearly communicating to, you know, the world out there, not necessarily knowing who's taking it in. Hey, this is what we're doing. This is what we're about because we truly believe in this. It's the right thing, it's the just thing to do, and not because we are trying to find a way to make you come here. You know that it's actually just grounded in justice, regardless of whether there is engagement or not. As Kay said, you know, there's a space to go hardplaces and the space to grow with each other. We're going to wrap momentarily, Mark, I'd like to invite you to say anything that's coming up for you right now, and if we have another minute, we'll add Heth there.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, this has been a fantastic conversation. Obviously, it's, it's one that is ongoing. The one thing I just want to say to the listeners is give yourself some grace. You're we're all doing a fantastic job. I know that all of our listeners want to do this work, and I know that some of our listeners after hearing this conversation, might be feeling that discomfort we talked about earlier, and my advice is just to give yourself some grace. It's not going to be perfect. You're not going to get there tomorrow. It's likely going to be a long journey, but it's going to be incredibly fulfilling, and both personally, professionally and for the kids that we are we all work with, but we'll get there.
Monika:It takes time. It's been 10 years and still a path for CNAC as an organization, let alone as individuals. Heth no pressures or anything that you were feeling like you really wanted to say as we wrap up?
Heather Wilson:No, I'd love to leave them with with Marc's thoughts there. I think that's really powerful.
Monika:Thank you for being so authentic and honest about your own struggles. The importance of sitting with discomfort and sitting with power and privilege. This this podcast series talks about all these things in depth in the future episodes. So it's really important for folks to tune in, to understand that they will continue to catch glimpses of what's been going on, as well as the changes that CNAC has been making and is making to the next episode, just how, how CNAC works now and and why, and then further episodes on, on course, changes on engagement, on increasing collaboration and very consciously making space or stepping out of the way so that indigenous voices, knowledge and wisdom come through more I'll leave us with this phrase that Sinead, a white settler who is a facilitator, had shared in the first episode as well that, you know, what she feels now is that there is much more of a centering of Indigenous wisdom that's carried through every topic and every relationship that we cover in the course. And so that's very hopeful. Thank you and hope folks tune in. So what else we've got? This episode was part of a special podcast series called learning to listen CNAC's Reconciliation and Practice. Thank you for listening to learn more about our work at the Child and Nature Alliance of Canada, and to access resources and professional development opportunities for supporting outdoor play and learning.Follow us on Instagram or Facebook and check out our website, www dot Childnature.ca. The Child and Nature Allianceof Canada is a national charitable non profit organization headquartered on the unceded and unsurrendered traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe, if you learned something from this podcast, consider supporting our work at www Dot, child, nature.ca. Forward, slash, donate. Hyphen, now. Thanks.