Dr. John Gottman: World-Renowned Marriage and Divorce Researcher Reveals All the Top Secrets for Great Relationships

In today's episode, Kimberly speaks with world-renowned marriage and divorce researcher Dr. John Gottman! 

Kimberly and Dr. Gottman pack a lot into this exciting episode. They discuss various topics like commitment, what makes sex great in a relationship, how to be more intentional with your spouse, constructive conflict, dating your spouse, and so much more! 

Kimberly and Dr. Gottman cover ALL THE THINGS we contemplate most in our relationships, so grab a notebook and a pen to discover more about commitment, what makes a great marriage, and how to make a marriage last.

You are going to want to share this episode with your friends and family. So make sure you hit the share button in your podcast player and text it to everyone you think would find value from this fantastic conversation with Dr. John Gottman.

Today’s Speaker: Dr. John Gottman, Ph.D. World-renowned marriage and divorce researcher.

World-renowned for his work on marital stability and divorce prediction, John Gottman has conducted 40 years of breakthrough research with thousands of couples. 

Dr. Gottman was one of the Top 10 Most Influential Therapists of the past quarter-century by the Psychotherapy Networker. He is the author or co-author of over 200 published academic articles and more than 40 books, including the bestselling The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work; What Makes Love Last; Eight Dates: Essential Conversations for a Lifetime of Love; The Relationship Cure; Why Marriages Succeed or Fail, and Raising An Emotionally Intelligent Child — among many others. Dr. Gottman’s media appearances include Good Morning America, Today, CBS Morning News, and Oprah, as well articles in The New York Times, Ladies Home Journal, Redbook, Glamour, Woman’s Day, People, Self, Reader’s Digest, and Psychology Today.

Co-founder of The Gottman Institute and co-founder of Affective Software, Inc. with his wife, Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman, John was also the Executive Director of the Relationship Research Institute. He is Professor Emeritus of Psychology at the University of Washington, where he founded “The Love Lab” at which much of his research on couples’ interactions was conducted. To read more about Dr. Gottman’s research, check out this page for interesting questions and citations to his work.

John co-presents with wife Julie Schwartz Gottman The Art and Science of Love workshops five times a year in Seattle. He also co-presents the Level 1, Level 2, and Level 3 Clinical Training in Gottman Method Couples Therapy. His style of presentation is clear, informative, and filled with humor, and he is beloved by his audiences everywhere.

Website: www.gottman.com

Books: The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work 

Eight Dates

Get the Attraction Assessment by visiting PIESUniversity.com, scroll down and wait for the pop-up. 

You’ll Learn

• The secret to a happy marriage
• What makes sex great and why you should cuddle more
• How to date your spouse

Season 2, Episode 76: Dr. John Gottman: World-Renowned Marriage and Divorce Researcher Reveals All the Top Secrets for Great Relationships

WE HAVE A NEW WEBSITE!!

Visit www.itstartswithattraction.com to check it out!

Transcript

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 0:30

On today's episode, I am speaking with world renowned marriage and divorce researcher who all of us know Dr. John Gottman. We had an amazing conversation and I asked him so many questions. We talked about commitment about sex, about what makes a great marriage, what makes it last about how to deal with conflict, all the things this is a fantastic episode. At the end of the episodes, I typically give my own key takeaways. But I don't even need to do that today. Because Dr. Gottman drops the mic right at the end of the episode, you are going to want to take notes, you are going to want to share this with your friends, you are going to want to listen to this multiple times over because Dr. Gottman is the leader in marriage and divorce research. He knows what he's talking about. And I love so many of the things that he said, of course, of course I do. He is the expert on it, we have great conversation, you're going to learn so much. My goal and hope for you is that you apply the things that you hear us talk about, let's dive in. physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual. These are the four areas of attraction, or as insiders like to call it, the pi's. Join me Kimberly beam homes as we speak with other experts around the world on how to become the most attractive that you can be create confidence and find happiness. We will teach you how it starts with attraction. And it starts now. People ask me all the time, Kimberly, which area of my pies? Should I focus on first? And the answer to that question is the one where you need to see the most growth. That is why I have created an attraction assessment. This free assessment is designed to help you learn what areas of attraction you should be working and focusing on first. This will be the foundation of your journey to becoming a more attractive person, to your spouse, to your friends and family. But most of all, to yourself. Click the link in the show notes to take the free assessment today. Dr. Gottman, I have read so much of your research, I have taught your research, I have read your book, The Seven Principles for Making marriage work.

Dr. John Gottman: 3:04

Oh, thank you, Kimberly, I really appreciate it that your work

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 3:08

has. I know you hear this. But I have to say to you, your work has been so fundamental in so many relationship areas over the past 40 years. So thank you for the work that you've done. And as a current PhD student, myself, I understand that research is not easy to do, and especially the kind of research you have done with the Love Lab and all of the the even the way that you did the expressions and just calculating people's micro expressions it hours, hundreds 1000s of hours of work most of the year. Yeah. pretty tedious. So what led you to want to study marriage and relationships to begin with?

Dr. John Gottman: 3:54

I think it was my own incompetence, relationships with women that really motivated me. And also Robert Levinson, who's been my lifetime collaborator, both of us, we're not doing very well in our relationships with the women. But now we're both happily married. So, you know, we learned from our research findings, how to be better at relationships.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 4:20

So did you take the struggles you were having? And is that what turned into your research questions?

Dr. John Gottman: 4:28

Yes, absolutely. That was the motivation was to really learn. We didn't know when we began if there really were people who were much better at relationships than Bob and I were. And you know, it turns out yes, there are there are these masters of relationships. And basically researchers learning from those people. What it takes to have a great relationship and learning from people who are less fortunate, like Bob and I were and seeing what they're doing wrong and seeing what the masters are doing. Right. So that's kind of what was the basis of the research just those comparisons.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 5:14

So you talk about the masters and the disasters of relationships, right? Wait, which of the two do you believe that you learned more from the masters or the disasters?

Dr. John Gottman: 5:25

Well, that's an interesting question, Kimberly, because prior research, research and writing Writing on relationships was really mostly done by therapists who never saw happy, stable relationships. So we actually learned a lot from both groups. And we could see ourselves reflected in, in the disasters. But the Masters really taught us quite a lot. I'll give you an example of that. So, you know, we found that in, in the disaster, relationships, when people dealt with conflict, they were pointing their finger at their partner and criticizing their partner and saying, here's what's wrong with our relationship, it's you, you have to change and until you change, the relationship isn't going to be happy. You know, as far as I can tell, I'm pretty much perfect, but you're defective. That's criticism? Well, it turned out that the the masters were less critical. But some of them actually were critical. So we can actually see what happened when a master couple when one of the partners was critical. And it turned out the response was completely different. Instead of saying, Yeah, well, you're not so perfect. Here's what's wrong with you. They said, You know, that's interesting. You know, maybe you're right. Maybe I can be selfish, sometimes or insensitive, or thoughtless, or even mean. So tell me more about what you're feeling. And I want to understand what you need. Someone's a totally different response. Instead of becoming defensive counter attacking, or acting like an innocent victim. They said, talk to me, I really want to know what you're feeling. My hero is this guy on one of one of our subjects who was a lawyer, and he was helping his wife identify what it was in his personality that made her the most angry. And I just admire this guy enormously, because he was saying, Well, is it the way I talk? And she said, yeah, that's it the way you talk. But what is it about the way I thought when she said, I'm not really sure? He said, Well, is it? Am I do I sound like an authoritarian. She said, Yeah, that's it. You sound like an authority I have spoken. That's the way you sound like a king, you know, I have spoken. And that's the why so well, he says, it works in the courtroom, she says, Well, it doesn't work with me at home. So here he is helping his wife identify, what about him makes her the most angry, non defensive, what an amazing guy. And I tried to model that with my wife, you know, she's upset with me or disappointed or hurt her feelings. I have a little notebook that I get out of my back pocket. And I say, just like that guy, I say, talk to me, baby, I'm listening. So we learned so much from the Masters, not only what people did wrong, when the relationships were in trouble, but what the masters did differently.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 8:33

Now, that man, let's take that man as an example. It's not normal human nature to lean in to someone who is maybe coming across as attacking or critical. It's not what what are some protective factors? I mean, do you think it has to do with how people are raised where if they don't learn it from you, or from your research, if they just naturally do that, like the masters that you studied in the Love Lab? They were naturally doing it before you ever came out with your research? Because researching it, figure it out? So yeah, what what do you think led them to be more like that?

Dr. John Gottman: 9:10

I think that's part of it, I think, I think you've got it, you know, they, they actually saw in their parents or other other people around them, or they figured it out themselves. They, they they saw people acting non defensively, and they adopted this model, you know, and they didn't know each other, right? These are all people we studied in the lab, but they all figured it out. That, you know, when you respond defensively, you just add flame to the fire, and you don't calm things down. You don't really help your partner tell you what your partner needs and what your partner's feeling. So they kind of figured it out somehow. And I think a lot of it has to do with the models they had as children.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 10:02

Hmm. Your prior research research that I've read instead of that, of all of the marital problems that people experience, it can really be boiled down into one of three reasons that people divorce because they don't feel liked or loved or respected. Right. Do you believe that that still holds to be true?

Dr. John Gottman: 10:23

Yes, I do. I think that's absolutely true. And, you know, I think it's it's the And quite often, people get so absorbed with their career or focused on their children, or anything else, and then the relationship. So they're not systematically building a culture of appreciation and respect and affection in the relationship. When people do that, when actually are focusing on the relationship, not just their job and their children when they're really not neglecting the relationship. Everything is fine. For example, you know, the biggest study ever done on what makes sex great in a relationship and what makes it awful done with 70,000 people in 24 countries found that what makes the difference is not what happens in the bedroom. It's about affection. It's about caring. It's about saying, I love you every day and meaning it. It's about giving your partner complements giving your partner surprise gifts, having romantic dates every week, having Romantic Vacations, cuddling? So, you know, cuddling, you know, you think Well, I mean, why is that important? Because it's not sexual? No. But when we cuddle, we secrete oxytocin. So of all the couples they studied, who didn't cuddle, only 4% at a great sex life. 96% of the non cuddlers had a terrible sex life. So it's about affection. It's about love. It's about respect. It's about caring. So it's not really that complicated.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 12:03

It's not that complicated. But it's not. That doesn't necessarily mean it's easy to do in your day to day life, unless you're intentional.

Dr. John Gottman: 12:13

That's right. That's, that's the key thing. I think you've hit the nail on the head, Kimberly, it's about being intentional. This long study at UCLA was a really good example. They studied dual career couples. And they found that, that these young couples spent less than 10% of the time in the same room in an evening. And they talk to each other less than 45 minutes a week. So they really were not nurturing the relationship, not giving it the attention it deserved. They weren't asking one another questions. They weren't going on dates, romantic dates, they were really letting the relationship kind of fell, you know, just disintegrate because they weren't giving it any energy or attention.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 13:04

Sure. Now, this is a question that I wanted to ask you, in, in some of the research that I've done looking at marriage and how it's changed since the 1940s 1950s, to now in the 50s. And before marriage was referred to as something called a commitment based relationship. And what the research I've read his has indicated is that starting in the 70s, which is around right before the time you started to do your research, that it started to become more of what is called expressive individualism. Where as in the 50s and 40s, the the commitment behind marriage was I will do what's best for the relationship. And then in the 70s, it began to become I want to do what's best for me in the moment to make me happy. Do you think that's true? Number one, and then my second question is, how do you think culture is affecting marriage and the future of marriage today?

Dr. John Gottman: 14:03

Wow, those are those are big questions. Yes, I think you're right, I think the 60s, especially in seven days, but especially the 60s, where there was a much greater focus on self, and on being an individual, and being happy. And whatever feels good is good. That sort of mentality that focused much more on the individual and individual development, not a bad idea, especially for women. I think it was really critical for women to undergo that kind of change. Because women had been really thinking that if they nurtured the relationship, everything would work out. If they if they put all their eggs in the relationship basket. Those eggs will be treated with respect and gentleness and care. And that just wasn't true. So women really needed to develop their own dreams. Just the way men had been nurtured to develop their dreams. Women had to have their dreams, their wishes, their hopes, known, first of all and respected Second of all, so it turned out that men had to go through a really big change in honoring women and accepting influence from women. And that turned out to be the integration that we needed to go from just focusing on the relationship and commitment and not on the quality of the relationship. Just its its existence was enough? Well, I think women were saying no, it's not enough, really, it has to be a high quality relationship, because women were better off alone, than they were in a bad relationship. And that became a known fact, that women, you know, didn't need men to be happy, they can be quite happy, alone. But in a great relationship, they'd be much better off than being alone in a relationship that respected them and honored them, they would live longer, they'd be healthier, and their children would we would be better off. But but the quality of the relationship became essential. And that's a transformation I think you're talking about. So whereas it seems like the 60s was a selfish period, because people are focusing more on themselves, it turned out to be that that selfishness was required for women to have a voice and to be heard. And, you know, it's still the case that women and heterosexual couples are a lot less happy than men are. But the men who listen really are way ahead of the game, compared to the men who don't listen, and ignore their wife's dreams and happiness and needs.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 17:02

Hmm. Now that we have more women who are working, working full time, maybe even being the full time breadwinner, for the family, what I have noticed with with my friends and other people I know and even with my own marriage, to some extent, is that's there, there's not a lot to go by, like my mom did not work, right. I never saw this modeled for me. And in culture, it's not the norm, or at least it didn't used to be the norm, but it's coming becoming more of the norm now. And I was seeing something the other day. And I I don't know if this is actual research, or just a statistic that was out there. But it said something like 90% of couples, or there's a 90% increase in the divorce rate of couples where the woman is the breadwinner. Now, I think it's interesting to ask you that question, since you're the expert on divorce. But But what do you think about that? I mean, how can we win this when there's the couples where women are working, and they're working full time? Or they're the full time breadwinner? What are some of the best things that couples can do to have a high quality satisfying marriage and not an unhappy one where the woman ends up with most of the burden?

Dr. John Gottman: 18:17

That's a great question, too. And, you know, I think a lot of sociologists have weighed in on this question. And the answer is very simple. Men who help men who do housework, and childcare have happier wives. And, and it's really about pitching in and helping. And that's been a big change. And yet, they're still, they're still the case that in a lot of relationships, women have two shifts. And as all the Hochschild has pointed out, you know, they they work most, you know, over 70% of American women work outside the home, and yet, when they come home, they have another job, you know, they have to have to clean, they have to, you know, make dinner and all that kind of stuff. And it turns out that men who help with the housework, get a lot more sex, and they're much happier. So that, you know, if you, you know, if you vacuum, you know, if you clean up if you cook, if you help with the children, you have happier wife and a better relationship. And not only that, you're more involved with your children. So part of what's happened is, and this has been an emergent thing is the nurturing father is a new thing that's happened since the 1960s and 1970s, that men who really are involved in the care of babies, and, you know, have learned that when they when they bade their baby or diaper their baby, it's really fun. It's babies really interested in you, and really likes you and is more attached to you and your life is much more satisfying if you're involved with your kids. So this idea that you can be masculine and still be a nurturing loving person, you know, that's a that's a new concept, you know, assist the 50s. And so we see that the women's movement has really helped men kind of increase their repertoire of emotional responsiveness to their children, to their wives, and it's really opened up Man, I think in a very big way, it's created a new kind of relationship. Now, it's not a relationship without conflict, because once, once you're equal in a relationship, you have more conflict. You know, you don't have those stereotype things to go by, like the man's in charge and makes the decisions, you've got to kind of duke it out. So there's more conflict, and people want to people don't know how to have conflict in a way that is constructive. So particularly Americans think conflict is a waste of time. And it's destructive. But actually, conflict has a goal. And the goal is mutual understanding. And once people realize that conflict is not only inevitable, but actually helpful in a relationship, you get to understand your partner better, you sharpen your ability to love more, then the relationship really changes very dramatically.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 21:29

This is one area of your research. I just love because it's so true, that the couples that want to stray away from it or push it down, or or that think that if we fight, it must mean we weren't meant to be together, or we're not compatible. Yeah, you know, this just turns it on its head and says no conflict is is helpful. It's a way to grow. It's a way to connect. Yeah. Much more

Dr. John Gottman: 21:57

of an Italian view than an American view.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 22:02

I love it. So can you walk us through what healthy conflict looks like? And what to avoid in conflict?

Dr. John Gottman: 22:09

Yeah, I you know, that's what Bob and I discovered some things about conflict that are, were really surprising. So by bringing couples into our lab, every couple of years, we learned that most conflicts never get resolved in a relationship. And they really arise from the fact that we choose somebody who's very different from us. And the big mistake that people make in relationships is, once they're together, they tried to change their partner into them. And we're not really attracted to our clone, we don't, we're not attracted to somebody who's like us, you know, and that that's true, you know, across the planet. And like an Israeli kibbutzim, when boys and girls were raised together, they're more like brother and sister, and they're not interested in one another, they turn out to be too similar. So we really are looking for people who are different from us. And there's even a wonderful study by Klaus Wedekind in Germany, that found that women really are attracted to men who smell very different from them. men wore T shirts for two days, and the women selected the t shirt of the man who was most different from them in the genes of the immune system. And when they did the next experiment to see what they like these men more when they met them, the answer was yes, they like them more. So women are looking for somebody very, very different. Now, once you are together with somebody who's very different from you, if you try to turn that person and to you, you're gonna have a bad relationship. If you can really be nurtured by the differences, then you'll have a great relationship. My wife is an athlete, she was a downhill skiing racer in college. She's a mountain climber. She went to Mount Everest base camp number two, what before she was 50 years old. And, you know, I'm much more of a wimp, you know, I exercise but not like she does. I'm on the treadmill, you know, watching videos of the great courses, but she's out there, you know, hiking, hiking in the wilderness. Well, I learned to appreciate nature, really through her. And so the difference really enriched both of us and we, we love getting into a kayak, and you know, kayaking out in the ocean, and seeing the wildlife she really helped me to see nature. I grew up in New York City and for me, nature was taking a subway to to Central Park and having a picnic and then going home and wiping the nature off before he went inside. But her nature was about loving trees and, you know, really being a steward of nature. And I've learned I've learned from her. So the differences can enrich people. And if they try to really change their partner into them, they're going to have a very unhappy relationship. So it's, again, it's not very complicated to have a great relationship. You pick somebody very different from you. Learn from those differences and be enriched by them.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 25:24

Hmm, I heard your wife Dr. Gottman. Say that. The greatest myth is that you have to be compatible, right? I loved that quote.

Dr. John Gottman: 25:37

Yeah, if you're compatible, you're probably going to be bored. You know, I mean, you know, if you're, if you have the same personality, it's not interesting. It's not interesting to have relationship with yourself is nothing new is nothing. You know, I, you know, I love talking to Julie. And you know, it's never changed in 35 years, I still look forward to talking to our breakfast. And I think that's what makes a relationship really work is to keep curiosity alive. That's why we wrote the eight Dave's book was to nurture curiosity and one another.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 26:14

Yes. Now, what you just said after 35 years, you still love talking to her? Are you are both of you just continuing to learn grow? Dive into your hobbies? And then that's something you're intentional about talking about every, every day? Yes. Not run out of things to talk about?

Dr. John Gottman: 26:37

Or no, you know, it's like, you know, I just did, she keeps changing. She's so interesting. I mean, she's, you know, she has such a rich inner world, you know, just hearing about what she dreamt last night and what she makes of it, how she understands it. You know, she told me about a dream she had, we're expecting our first grandchild right now, you know, so we're both dreaming about babies a lot. And she had a dream last night about baby animals coming to out of the forest into a pond. And she was observing them. And, you know, so she telling me about her dream and telling me about, you know, what it means about her becoming a grandma. And I'm going, Wow, that's so interesting. And I'm dreaming about babies. So it, it never stops. It's a it's a long conversation that never ends, and keeping curious about her. And when we go on a date, I get ready for the date, I think to myself, What do I know about Julie right now? And what don't I know about her? And then I have questions. And I asked her those questions. And it's always fascinating to see how she views the world.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 27:51

I love that. It's, I mean, marriage is the most important relationship, I believe that you have here on this earth. It's the person that you chose to be with, it's the person you're modeling your behavior to the children for how they're going to grow up and experience it. Right. And so I love having this mindset approach of approach it with curiosity and newness and, and like, it's the most important relationship in your life, because it is, but it's not what people typically do. I agree

Dr. John Gottman: 28:25

with you, Kimberly, you know, there's, there's, you know, when we're a tourist, and we go, you know, to a new town, let's say, we take a vacation in Italy, and we're in this little town, near Venice, was just filled with questions. We just want to know, who built that church? And who made those stained glass windows? And, you know, what are they have in the market here? And you know, what's the wine like? And what's the cuisine like, and we have all these questions we want to answer. Well, you know, being married is about being a tourist in the landscape of your partner's mind and hard. And if you can still be a tourist and say, so what's on your mind right now? What's what's on your heart? What are you thinking about? What are you worried about? What are you hoping for? What are you wishing for? What's going on inside you? Then you stay alive and curious. And you You are enriched by your conversation with one another and your time together? It's not any more complicated than that.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 29:27

I love it. Well, let's talk about this book, eight dates. So my husband and I actually got this last year and we've been working through it the other day about it. I said, I can't believe I'm gonna be talking to Dr. Gottman about this book. And we have not finished it in a year.

Dr. John Gottman: 29:45

What what's been your favorite date so far?

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 29:48

It was let's talk about what what we might fight about. Mm hmm. Like these are the it was, you know, one of us is more functional, punctual. One is less differences in how we parent and things like that. That one was my favorite because my husband and I do have a lot of conflict. We don't shy away from it. But I what I don't think we do well, or what we're learning to do better is to have the conversations on the front end before it becomes conflict. In doing that as much as possible. It was the it was the chapter where it said 69% of conflict is going to be is never going to be solved right. You just have to learn and how to respect each other in your differences. It was that chapter.

Dr. John Gottman: 30:34

Yeah, and you know, that's a really big thing. Because accepting the differences is really what the Masters do. And even being able to laugh about the differences, and see them over and over again. And then actually respecting those differences and understanding, well, this is, you know, this is, this is a part of the woman I love, this is a part of the man I love, you know, and that's what he's like. And here are, here are some of the triggers, that person has and, you know, really gets upset very easily about, and here are, here are their crazy buttons and things that make them really go ballistic, you know, and learning that about one another, then turns a perpetual problem into one that's an exploration of your dreams, and your hopes and your wishes.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 31:27

But you know, what I love about the book, more than anything is the first of all, the way it's set up was definitely planned, right? Like it goes through trust and commitment is the first date because that's foundational. If I don't have this trust and commitment, it's harder to talk about conflict, it's harder to talk about sex. That's right. And so every chapter is there for a reason. And it ends with dreams, right? Because this is like it's oh, you know, we're closing it, but it's closing with something for us to be aspirational about. And, and to take us further and to go faster. And so the way it's put out is beautiful. But my favorite part is that it gives you a reason to go on dates, right? And it gives you here's eight critical and essential conversations. And here's the template. Here's what to read beforehand. Here's the chapter summary. Here's an exercise for you to do separate or together and talk about, and then here's what to do on your date. Here's what to talk about. It's just it's a it's a plan for how to have a great date. I love it.

Dr. John Gottman: 32:34

Yeah, and we feel tested the dates to you know, being researchers, we actually 350 couples, both same sex and and cross sex relationships, the greeter, videotape, audio tape, I mean their dates, and we can analyze them. And we could, you know, rule out the dates that turned out to complete duds and have and have the dates, you know, we could fine tune them. So that, you know, they didn't have any snags in them, they didn't really get people into conflict, they actually, all they do is keep curiosity alive. Even the date on conflict is not intended for people to have conflict. It's intended to say, so what's been your experience with conflict in a relationship? What have you seen in your parents? What have you not seen? How do you want to be talked to talk to when you when I disagree with you? How do you want me to talk to you what, what feels respectful, what feels constructive to you, you know, so you're really sort of fashioning your own way of dealing with conflict, by keeping curiosity alive, rather than being aggressive, you know, and hostile about it, you're being open minded about it and listening.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 33:52

Right? So in your testing, so this just piqued my research mind when you had these 350 couples go on the dates? And then you would listen to them? Would you change the dates and have them go back on a date with the new information? And then continue to research what the what the audio was, like until it was? Yeah, what yeah,

Dr. John Gottman: 34:14

we, we were able to do some of that we, you know, we, you know, unfortunately, we didn't have any research funding to do this work, we would have done it, you know, much, much more carefully over time. But we, we did the best we could, and some of that really involve changing the date that was not working, that we thought was an important thing for couples talk about, and seeing if we could make the date, you know, stay alive for people. And then, you know, there was a lot of serendipity in it, because the data on trust and commitment turned out to be the most productive day of all of them. Because we're asking people, What does that mean to you? To trust someone? What does it mean to you that to distrust someone? Have you been betrayed in your relationship? Have you trusted someone who really wasn't trustworthy? What was that experience like and what do you need to feel safe in a relationship? What do you need to feel like your partner is really there for you when the chips are down? And so people exploring that and just talking about it led them then to go to the next stage and say, What can I do? To make you trust me more, what can I do to show you that you are the love of my life? And I'm not going anywhere. Even if even if we go through a rough period, I'm not going to hang in there. What can I do to make you believe that? And so people really got to where they could be open minded about their partner's deepest fears, and greatest hopes and dreams, for making a relationship safe and trustworthy. And really being there for one another when the chips are down, rather than going through these emotional injuries, where they just don't know what what is it that means trust to you. What is it, that means commitment to you. So it's a great day.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 36:21

It is all of them so far, we have to finish it and we will, all of them so far have been great. There has been none of them that have been that have been negative. And there have been things not this but different things that my husband and I have done in the past that did end up negatively ended up in fights like just different, you know, maybe like card decks, not the Gottman card decks, those are great, the one that's on the phone, the app on the phone, those are great and helping to

Dr. John Gottman: 36:49

Yeah, that's how you should tell your you should tell your listeners because that's a card deck, that's an app that we have that's available for free in the App Store, you can just type in Gottman card decks. And it's been downloaded 350,000 times so far. And it helps couples just talk about really tough things, even building a love map of your partner's erotic world, knowing what turns your partner on and turns your partner off 100 questions you can ask a man 100 questions you can ask a woman about their inner erotic world. And so many couples in America are embarrassed to talk about sex. And they don't?

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 37:37

Yes, so we'll have the link to that in the show notes so that people can find it because it is great. I mean, just a couple of weeks ago, my husband and I were on a trip in Arizona. And we had a four hour drive. And when we were dating back, you know, 11 years ago, he we used to play the question game, or we just asked each other questions. But now I mean, last week, he said, pull up that card deck and go through the the questions, the open ended questions in it. And so we spent four hours just asking each other some questions. Oh, that's great. So there's different ones. So for the listeners to know, there's different types, you can do the sexual ones, you can do more open ended ones. It's so there's a lot of options. And it's great to help keep you connected. And we'll have we'll have the link there. So one of the questions I wanted to ask you about going back to commitment. How, how would you define commitment in a relationship? Because I think you did these dates on dating, or married people? Is that correct? Or in the 350? That's right. So is there? What is the difference? Or maybe another way to say is how does commitment change when you're dating versus when you're married? And how do you is that measured differently?

Dr. John Gottman: 38:52

Yeah, that's a really great question. And, you know, fortunately, the research of a brilliant woman named Carol rustbolt, really 30 years of research that she did on commitment really helped us understand what commitment is like in relationships that work. And it's kind of a surprising thing that she found. And it has to do with what do you think about when things aren't going well between you and your partner? And so, when things aren't going well? Do you give voice to your complaints to your partner? Or do you find somebody else to complain to about your partner? Are you? Are you raising those issues with your partner, or avoiding those issues? And it turns out that if you are complaining to somebody else about your partner, then what you do is you give yourself permission to do that, the complaint about your partner to somebody, and you magnify in your mind, what's wrong with your partner, and you think to yourself, I can do better. I'm suffering, you know, and looked at all the negative things about my partner. Whereas if you give voice to those complaints with your partner, what you're actually doing, the way you're thinking Carol taught us is that you're magnifying your partner's positive qualities. And in your mind, you're minimizing your partner's negative qualities. So So I'm saying, God, you know, Julie's the woman I love, and, you know, right now, I'm not feeling real happy. So I'm going to talk to her about it, because she's, she's a great person. I mean, you know, she's a kind, generous, you know, loving person. So I'm going to tell her, you know, honey, I'm really not happy, because we're not making love very often now. Or, you know, we're not having conversations like we used to, or we're not having a lot of fun or adventure, I'm going to talk to her about it. Because I, I feel lucky to have her in my life, even though things are crummy right now. So I go to her and complain. And because she's, she's the love of my life. And she's, she's the one I have to talk to about this to make it better. So what that's what Carol rustbolt showed us, that there's a process that leads to betrayal. And the process is, I think there's an alternative, and I can do better than this person in my life. And once I start thinking, I can do better than I abandon the relationship, a complaint to somebody else about her. I give myself permission to cross boundaries. And I think to myself, God, you know, that that lady in Starbucks that I see in the morning, you know, carries that really cute umbrella. She has a great smile, and Julie hasn't smiled. That that a knee for a long time, you know, and, you know, why don't I have a conversation with her? And, you know, maybe if I have a conversation with her, I can say she says, Well, you know, are you married? And I said, Yeah, I am. But I'm really not happy. Right? So I cross a boundary, I talk about my wife to somebody else. And it's a potential alternative relationship. So that's what cower rustbolt taught us, she she's done the only research in the world that can predict sexual infidelity in heterosexual couples. So brilliant research. And so commitment. You think commitment is something you say, at the altar when you get married, or maybe you don't have a commitment ceremony, but it's something she showed us that you do every day, every day, when I'm not with jewelry, I'm thinking in my mind, boy, I am really lucky to have joy in my life. And there is nobody, there's no woman on the planet that can replace her. And I think about stuff like, you know, she knew my mother, my mother's not alive anymore. You know, we we raised a child together. And she's such a great mom. And now she's going to be a grandma. And I'm going to be a grandpa. And so I think about all the positive qualities. And that's what commitment is about. So we understand commitment through this beautiful research that Carol rustbolt has done. And I'm unfortunately Carol car while Russ both died at the age of 51, from breast cancer. And so and she never wrote a book. So if you want to read about it, I wrote a book called The Science of trust. And her work is described there. And I wish I had known Carolyn, I wish he had written the book for the general public because her insights into loyalty and betrayal are really just absolutely beautiful.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 43:52

You know, I it's really, that's really fascinating. And the other layer that I think fits into this somehow, is someone could be of a faith. So I, I am of the faith that I value, the commitment that I've made in my marriage, right, and many people I know are of the same one. So outwardly, like I'm committed. But mentally, if I were to begin thinking those things, like you said, I'm frustrated with my husband, his name's Rob, if I'm frustrated with Rob, and and just start to think, are there better alternatives? I start to notice the guy at Starbucks, right? Like if I start to mentally do that, I might never think that physically, I would do anything because I'm committed like I made a vow before God, I honor that. But how does that affect my happiness in the marriage the way I begin to treat Rob, right, like I and that could lead to betrayal, even if I never actually cross over into a physical or emotional infidelity.

Dr. John Gottman: 44:51

That's exactly right. That's what Carol Tada. So it, you know, it's almost like there's a switch, you know, like a railroad car switch. And you can go one way toward loyalty and another way toward betrayal. And even if you don't have an affair, you're treating Rob entirely differently. You're, you're seeing Rob as dispensable. You're seeing Rob as Yeah, you know, I can get rid of him and I still can have a happy life, you know, so you're not taking what he's saying as seriously. Are there alternatives? And you know, and now, you know, you don't have to really complain to him about what What, what's bugging you about him? Whereas if you're committed, you're going to say, Listen, Rob, you got to you got to pay attention to what I'm feeling right now. It's very important, you know, you're losing me, you know, I'm becoming more distant from you pay attention. And that's what you do when you're committed, you actually give voice to your complaints. And so that whole idea of taking your partner seriously enough to have conflict with them, is absolutely critical. And that's what Carol showed us.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 46:03

So what about when someone's in a marriage or dating relationship where they were they are taking it seriously, they're listening to this podcast, they're reading all the books, they're trying to do all the things, but they have a spouse or boyfriend or girlfriend that is not interested or not engaging? What do you recommend for those people to do to try and lead their loved one to engage back into the relationship and care?

Dr. John Gottman: 46:33

Yeah, that's, that's a great question, Kimberly. And that's kind of why we designed the date on trust and commitment. So the first step is to really be curious, not judgmental, about your partner, and saying, Oh, well, I'm the enlightened one. And my partner is living in the dark, you know, my partner, stubborn and unwilling to, you know, doesn't care about me really enough to read this book. But if you go on the date on trust and commitment, you're really saying to your partner, I'm curious about what it means to you, and what you know, what being safe in a relationship means to you? And how have you been disappointed in your other relationships? How did your parents show one another that they were committed? And they were trustworthy? Or how did they fail to do that? And when you open yourself up and are curious, then you can find, you know, that maybe there's a reason why your partner is less committed, and less trusting that you are, and you know, and your partner can let you know what that means, you know, so you, there are surprises there, you know, so you might find out well, he is really telling me, or she's really telling me that my attitude towards saving money really gets in the way of his feeling, trusting of me. And that if I, if I was dedicated more to saving money, he or she would feel closer to me and safer in the relationship. No big surprise. Really. That's now yeah. Because here's what I grew up with, in terms of safety and money and poverty and wealth. Right. So there's a big surprise. And so each one of the dates are designed to maximize curiosity, rather than blame, and accuse and say, Well, you're not as committed as I am. You're not, you know, you don't trust me what's wrong with you, you know, but to actually say, help me understand how you feel helped me understand how you view the world. And when you're open and curious like that, there are only surprises there. And you can then build trust and commitment within that world of being curious and interested in open minded.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 48:55

So Dr. Gottman, you asked me the question, which was my favorite date? What is your favorite date, in the eight dates book?

Dr. John Gottman: 49:03

My favorite date is the one on sex. And because, you know, you know, for the past almost 50 years, I've had couples in the lab talking about a sexual issue that they have. And in America, if you don't come from a Hispanic or Latino background, that's something we discovered, if you come from a Hispanic or Latino background, the culture really approves of you talking openly about sex. And the same thing is true for gay and lesbian couples. They feel comfortable being direct about sex, and saying, you know, I really want more oral sex. And here's, here's what turns me on. And this is what I want. Or, you know, I would like to try this or, you know, they focus on non monogamy as an issue, and they're open about it. But most most American couples from all these other cultures that we have in the United States, so many are very embarrassed to talk to each other about sex. And so they don't really ask questions they don't really know their partner sexually. And, and that's so sad. You know, what, why I mean, if you know if you were going to give your partner a back rub, you know and massage, you might start off giving them a massage the way you like to get one, but you would certainly listen into their feedback and say, No, you know, rubbin a circle rolling up and down, you know, harder, they're over to the left over to the right. Right. And, and you would you wouldn't feel defensive about getting that kind of feedback about how to give your partner a massage. But with with sex, people feel personally offended what you don't. You don't like the way I do this? And you know,

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 50:53

so for the first time.

Dr. John Gottman: 50:57

It's so silly. Why Why would people? Why should they stay unhappy about such things, when they can actually have a wonderful sexual relationship? Just by asking these questions and being open minded?

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 51:11

So would you say or let me put it this way? What would you say? Is the biggest issue that couples are encountering when it comes to what is standing between them having a great sex life?

Dr. John Gottman: 51:28

I think that's it, I really think is, it's being open minded having a sense of humor, and being playful and adventurous about lovemaking. And, you know, really trying to understand what, what turning your partner on what's turning your partners off. And the other thing that I think is really critical is talking about how to respond to know. So that when your partner says, No, you know, I'm, I'm really not in the mood to make love. It's the furthest thing from my mind. I absolutely don't want to do that. That No, doesn't have to end connection. Because the response to know should be thank you for telling me, You're not in the mood to have sex or in a nightclub? What are you in the mood for? Should we make some popcorn and watch a movie? Should we go for a walk, you want to cuddle? You want time alone? You know what, you know, it doesn't have to end connection it can, you can still stay connected to one another. So the way somebody responds to know is really critical. If they salt and punish their partner for saying no, our research shows that they'll eventually have much less sex, if they're open minded when their partner says No, they'll have much more sex, no does not have to end connection. And I think that's a critical thing for people to realize, especially when a woman says Now

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 52:56

when in talking about the the gaps that may that still exist in research things to still be still be researched. What are some that you believe are left to be discovered?

Dr. John Gottman: 53:09

Well, that's a great question, Kimberly, you know, so, you know, I'm, I'm kind of a systems thinker. And so I'm really interested, we, we have discovered that, you know, when we try to help couples, that through prevention, we're able to have an effect that is three times the size of the effect we have when we try to intervene after problems are developed. So rather than preventing problems, we wait until the problems develop. And then we do therapy with a couple or have a workshop with a couple. So I really want to know more about prevention. How can we help couples really kind of understand the territory of relationships, so that it becomes something that people can do, like a set of skills that they can master, if they want to have a happy relationship? We know that people in happy stable relationships live an average of 15 years longer than people who are alone or people in unhappy relationships. So, you know, it's every bit as powerful as eating well, and exercising, and all the kinds of things you do to keep your body healthy. You keep your soul healthy by having great relationships, and not just love relationships, but also relationships with your children, with your friends with co workers. So the ability to have a great relationship in your life turns out to be very health giving. And we understand the mechanism through which that works. So I'd like to understand how to how to reach people on you know, in medicine, there's this amazing thing, that if you take all the people who have chronic health problems like diabetes, hypertension, asthma, only half of them take their medicine. The other half actually don't do what's good for them. And they they get sick and die because medicine has cures for these chronic ailments. My My blood pressure is managed by medication. I'm genetically susceptible to high blood pressure. I'm genetically susceptible to diabetes, but I can manners notice, well, the same thing is true for relationships, you want to really have some way in our culture where people can get together and deal cooperatively with conflict instead of aggressively and hostile Lee toward conflict. And so what I'm really concerned about is, how can we really be more cooperative with one another as a species, rather than aggressive and hostile and selfish? You know, both tenants existed in us human beings, you know, the tendency to be to be mean and hostile, and, you know, racist and sexist, and, you know, and selfish, but we also have this incredible ability to cooperate and love. But my question is, how can we move people, our species toward more cooperation and more love and prevent these terrible things from happening where, you know, people are lonely and unhappy and miserable, and, and live live, less healthy lives and live, you know, don't live this long. So that's really my question.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 56:47

Do you know Dr. David Matson? Mata?

Dr. John Gottman: 56:50

Yes,

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 56:51

I do. Yes, I had him on my podcast about a year ago now. And one thing I will never forget that he said, was when he was doing the research of what it would take to end terrorism in the Middle East, that the findings were that it has to begin within the home. Because it was a it is within the home that people learn to hate, or learn to love. That's right. So as I'm listening to you talk about what could these prevent preventative factors be? I'm just thinking is it isn't going to have to start within the home? And well,

Dr. John Gottman: 57:26

you know, we actually have studied that. And we came up with a thing called emotion coaching, which the the masters of parenting do, they really see moments when their child feels a strong emotion, disappointment, anger, you know, as opportunities for connection, and they go in and they listen, and they understand their child. And that's the key emotion coaching has now been tried everywhere on the planet. And it's really effective children are the same everywhere. And a parent who listens, develops a child who can love and that's the key.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 58:08

That's good. I love that. Okay, Dr. Gottman, I just have one final question for you. Although I could talk to you all day. So many more

Dr. John Gottman: 58:19

than two, I'm enjoying this

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 58:22

in honor of your time. So what do you believe is the number one thing for a long lasting marriage?

Dr. John Gottman: 58:30

You know, I think what it is, and this is supported by my research, is to develop the model that when your partner is upset about anything, the world stops, and you listen, and you listen without judgment. And you take notes about what your partner is saying. And you say, Baby, what are you feeling? What do you need? And that's it. That's the one thing if you do that over the long run, you'll have a happy stable relationship.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 59:09

I love it. That's great. Thank you so much. Thank you I encourage all everyone listening get the book eight dates as well as other books that Dr. Gottman has the Seven Principles for Making marriage work the the one about trust the science of trust, which I'm now going to go get and read because I definitely want to understand the betrayal and loyalty. Yeah, conversation even more. But thank you again for all of the work we've done. Thank you for having this conversation with me today. It's I loved it.

Dr. John Gottman: 59:41

Are you welcome Kimberly, it was fun.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 59:47

Friends, I hope you enjoyed today's show. Remember to follow it starts with attraction anywhere you listen to podcast and leave us a review. The more positive reviews we get, the more positive change we can make for relationships and for individuals around the world for shownotes updates and the opportunity to join our email list for encouraging weekly strategies for you to become the best that you can be in all areas of your pies. Go to pies university.com Again, that is pies university.com Keep working on your pies and always remember it starts with attraction