Brad Jackson is Associate Dean of Strategic Engagement at Waikato Management School in New Zealand. He also serves as Professor of Leadership and Governance. Jackson has published several books — Management Gurus and Management Fashions, Organisational Behaviour in New Zealand, Demystifying Business Celebrity, and Revitalising Leadership. He has also co-edited the Sage Handbook of Leadership and Major Works in Leadership. He is a former co-editor of the journal, Leadership.
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Quotes From This Episode
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Brad Jackson is Associate Dean of Strategic Engagement at Waikato Management School in New Zealand. He also serves as Professor of Leadership and Governance. Jackson has published several books — Management Gurus and Management Fashions, Organisational Behaviour in New Zealand, Demystifying Business Celebrity, and Revitalising Leadership. He has also co-edited the Sage Handbook of Leadership and Major Works in Leadership. He is a former co-editor of the journal, Leadership.
Select Publications by Dr. Brad Jackson
Quotes From This Episode
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Episodes Mentioned in This Episode
Did You Enjoy Phronesis?
Connect with Scott Allen
Note: Voice to text transcriptions are about 90% accurate.
Scott Allen 0:02
Brad Jackson, you are an award winner. And you've won an award. I don't think that you knew that you've won an award. But you've won an award for the distance. The guest furthest from me at this moment and I think it's you, I think you get the distance award. I'm so excited to have this conversation with you today. I am in Cleveland, Ohio. You are in New Zealand. And for our listeners, Brad Jackson is, well, he's a scholar, he is an administrator, he's a professor. He is he trots the globe, especially when we can track the globe right now, we've probably paused on some of that. But Brad is the Associate Dean of Strategic Engagement at Waikato Management School, which is based in Hamilton, New Zealand. Brad Jackson, how are you, sir? Happy New Year,
Brad Jackson 0:54
And to you to Scott Kyoto to you and your listeners. And thanks very much. It's great to be awarded for coming the furthest. Although, you know, distance in some respects. As you know, this particular euro has just become so much more compressed. It's been a marvelous experience to be able to participate even more globally than I was historically, through digital contact and great, you've had a great lineup of speakers, and lovely to be able to join this and to, you know, wave the flag for Oceania.
Scott Allen 1:29
Well, sir, you have been, you've been exploring this topic of leading in place, and you haven't another one another award that I want to give you. But that's going to be later in the episode. So I'm going to keep you in suspense. You have two awards, you didn't even know it, you're going to get two awards. So So leading in place, you had sent me a paper as we prepared for this episode, I looked, but I would love for you to take our listeners through some of that work. How are you thinking about leading in place? And then, of course, we have the leadership hex at which I'm excited to hear about too.
Brad Jackson
Yeah. Well, yeah, thanks. Yeah, really, what the place is part of that hexad framework, which we've developed, can parry who, God bless him, we lost him two or three years ago. But he and I co-authored a book called a very short, fairly interesting, quite cheap book about studying leadership. And for the third edition, we were looking at a way of trying to sort of promoting multi-dimensional views of leadership to kind of open up our perspective. So we were inspired by Keith Grint's four lenses of leadership and added an eye they were around person, position, and performance. And so we've added process. Yeah. So those what we've added purpose in place, to that to create this, this hex out there. And really, it's just trying to if you think about, the way I look at it is you've got this kind of an iceberg of the way we think about leadership. And we all know when people focus on leadership, most of the work has been around the person, you know, what's distinctive about the leader, and particularly, we tend to get very focused on those that are in positions of authority. And then we get hung up on how well they and their organization, their team, or whatever or their community are performing. what we believe is very important is he said below that iceberg of attention that gets all the focus, there are these three other lenses, which is around process, performance, or purpose in place, are really critical. But they're nowhere near as well recognized or as utilized either in media, conventional media, or social media or even in academic research and so in particular places a major passion for me. And that's part of the reason why I have worked to leave the different parts of the world is that I think there's nothing like working...if you want to get to know a place to try to change something. Visiting is easy, you know, climbing a mountain and jumping out of a helicopter or whatever, fine, that actually go into an organization to try to make something happen if you really get to that place. But it comes by honestly because I'm a geographer, originally my undergraduate degree was at the University of Bristol, I did a Bachelor of Science, I got very focused on quantitative analysis of space. And then I moved to the University of British Columbia. And that's what brought me to North America to do my Master of Arts, my MA in geography, and that was all hermeneutic interpretive approaches, so no numbers, and by all about meaning, and so that was sort of the basis of my education. In particular, if you think about my undergraduate was all about understanding space and how to analyze and make sense of space, and then my MA was just about "place," an important distinction. And I suppose as you go through your career, particularly as you get towards, quote, The Twilight Phase of your career, you tend to think about Hang on, where did this all start, and you start to go back to your original passions and interests. And so what I've been sort of quietly and slightly more noisily doing recently is looking at what I call a geography of leadership. So in other words, we've talked a lot about the fact that psychology and leadership tend to, you know, like, they've had the tight reins on the field for a while, but sociologists have gotten their political scientists, philosophers, you know, including scientists, and etc, now and the arts, and what about a geography of leadership? And what would that bring to bear? And it's so that's essentially why I thought, look, this is something that...we've talked a lot about the context that's in it's usually acknowledged sort of in a fairly grudging way, at the end to say, Well, of course, there's a context. You know, it's sort of usually in the last part of the Ph.D. people say, "Oh, you know, there are some specific contextual issues here, blah, blah, blah." What I wanted to do is to say, if you put "place" first and foremost, how does that then change? What comes to bear in leadership?
Scott Allen
Wow. So tell me a story about that, Brad. Unpack that a little bit, unpack that. Maybe even give me an example. Right. What do you I I'm really, really intrigued by this, because I think you're exactly right. I think you're right on a number of things, for sure. I mean, of course, contexts. You know, Barbara Kellerman talks a little bit about leader, followers, context, she calls it her leadership system. But that whole realm of context has not necessarily been unpacked - Fred Fiedler was really one of the first to, at least in contingency theory, start thinking about it's not just the leader of the followers, right. There's a, there's a context that's, that's in play. But you're unpacking this context in a different way. And I love it. I think it's a lot of fun. So tell me more.
Brad Jackson
Yeah, because I think the other thing that's important about context, situation, you know, number of people foregrounded that, but I don't think they've - it tends to play a sort of subsidiary role. There is a recognition that it's important that it acts on what behaviors and relationships but the piece that hasn't been in the way in which place can be an active resource, in a constraint in leadership. So it's actually a dialectical relationship. And, you know, you mentioned the hex addict. The hex is basic planet promote, when you say, well hang on, what's the relationship between the person and the place in leadership or the performance in place or process and, but then my particular passion, I think you've had Steve Kempster, on the show, primarily is that you know, we have a sort of twin passion for the role of purpose and the way and so what we've been working on is this sort of notion between purpose and place the relationship. So look to give you I mean, an example, I guess, where I got really, you know, thinking about the importance of place in leadership was really my encounter moving from to New Zealand, and 1999, from from from Canada. And, you know, we have, you know, in University and other communities, we are brought on to what's known as the marae, which is a meeting house for Māori, and essentially, the locally, we bring you on through a porphyry. And when you spend time, you know, sorry, we spent the night as a group there, you are encouraged to provide a media, which is basically talking about who you are. And one of the things that you're asked to talk about is and yes, you know, is your lineage, which, you know, who are you know, your answers because they play a critical role in influencing leadership. That's another topic, by the way, but you're also to talk you're encouraged to talk about your Mountain and your River. And as someone who's sort of moved around an awful lot, I must admit, I really struggle with that say, "Well, what what is my Mountain and my River?" and the whole idea is that these are kind of critical advocates for who you are and what you're about, and what you stand for. And so for a long time, I struggled. I hail from my family's from Leicestershire. I wasn't born there. I was born in Germany. So you know, I sort of focused on the, the Beacon Hill, which is the sort of the oldest rocks of Europe and the river soar in the grand union canal. But I thought isn't interesting. I have trouble with And yet, I found that remarkably grounding when I did do that process and so, whenever I go back to England, which was last October 2019, I always make a point of going to Beacon Hill and, and going down to the, to the river and the way the river meets the cal. And really sort of thinking yeah, that's a lot about who I am in an awful lot of. So in this incredibly digitalized world, you know, where, you know, it's, everything is fast-moving, connecting with, with, if you like business schools have played a critical role in the quote, destroying the challenges that distance and time plays, its that actually, we may have lost something very important in terms of who we are, and what we're here to do, which is sort of anchored in place. So, so yeah, so I get pick up on
Scott Allen
Would you talk a little bit more about the mountain and the river and kind of the thinking behind those two? I find it fascinating.
Brad Jackson 10:57
Yeah, well, there's a strong spiritual connotation to that in Māori cosmology, about the creation in some of these mountains and rivers. And so yes, it's a very important part of that, but it actually, it does, you know, you're there are we tend to think of, okay, mountain that's got to be the Himalayas or the Andes or whatever. But in actual fact, it's actually looking even in the Midwest, you know, the, I don't, by the way, I was based on the prairies for a while, but at least I had to read, it wouldn't
Scott Allen 11:25
Brad, it would not be a mountain, it would be a hill!
Brad Jackson
But it's still that sense of, you know, where you can get height where you can get, and you start to think about, quote, the morphology, you start to think about it, not just us, but it's something you physically engage with and appreciate. And it's really about that sort of timeless aspects, but recognizing it's always in play, it's always growing up, we live, you know, in New Zealand is called the shaky Isles. So we have a lot of interesting stuff happening in terms of our Earth, the Earth's crust here with earthquakes, the old volcano, and so you are you, know, that that that place, and the environment is so obviously important to who you are, and what it's about that we do an awful lot to, you know, subjugate them and minimize that and push that to the side, whereas natural fair, and so if we think about just about COVID, in the response there, how powerful that has been in terms of, I guess, underlying the power of place because people have been, quote, locked in. And they have, you know, certainly in New Zealand, we're able to walk around their immediate neighborhood, and actually start to walk slow down, see things, observe things, and in a way that I think, has been quite palpable for people to, and but also, if you think about the whole epidemiology, you know, we did, I did quite a lot of studies of that when I was doing geography, looking at the spread of diseases, you know, and the proximity and social spaces in order. So I think people have become a lot more conscious about where they are, the immediate environment, how well they're doing compared to other parts of the world. And, you know, where do we want people here and wherever, you know, that kind of thing. So actually, I do think, places become so much more significant for people. And in terms of saying, well, what's it all about? Where do I need to be? And how, how do I interact without it without environment. So in a way, in a way, it's reinforced. And, you know, for me, I came from Australia had about to came earlier than I was planning ahead about three or four days to leave the country to get to New Zealand, my wife and I weren't sure we were gonna be able to get back in we got in. We had a, we got there a day before lockdown. And we were two weeks in quarantine in New Zealand, but we just felt so happy to be back in New Zealand, so happy to be "home," in a pandemic context, you know, and so I guess, in a way, this place issue and getting people to act into combine to tackle this common issue has been really palpable. And you know, the sort of team of 5 million has been remarkable. To be here to be a part of that process in place was central...
Scott Allen
Would you talk? Would you talk about that? Tell us some stories, Brad. I'm going to tell you one quick story. And then I want to hear about what you've witnessed with the team. Have you said the team of 5 million people. That was beautiful. But your story resonated with me because my family spent October in Utah. And my wife and I are we travel, and we absolutely love the American West. We love being among the mountains. And it's for some reason, it's just calming and my wife and I were on a walk last summer. And I said to her, I didn't need to be among the red rocks. I just need it. And we traveled to Utah, we basically drove straight there, we stopped five times and didn't know anybody. We just rented an Airbnb and we kept to ourselves for a month. But on the weekends, we went to national parks Zion or Bryce or Death Valley and some famous National Parks in the US, and just had an incredible was so grounding to be there. So your story resonates, it read very much resonates for me, because it was calming. And it was a wonderful experience. And whether it was our kids being able to physically climb on the red rock and engage, right? It just it was a wonderful October October, none of us will forget. And on Halloween, which is a big deal in the States, our children were worried because it was going to be different. And we said, well, how do we create the most memorable, incredible Halloween you've ever experienced? And we said, well, we've got a surprise. And so we ended up in Arches National Park dressed the five of us dressed as dinosaurs running around, Arches, but again, it was this place that had a history in our family and to go back there, and to be there, in this just beautiful, beautiful, scenic place. It was a memory that the five of us will remember forever, they will never forget that Halloween. Right? So your story resonates for me in a very, very beautiful way. But I want to hear about what you've witnessed. Because I don't know that there are many other places on planet Earth that have dealt with the pandemic better than New Zealand, at least that's my impression. Is that, would you agree?
Brad Jackson 16:49
Yeah, yeah. And I and I just commit, you know, to talk about the fact that this was very much a collective experience that you had. And I would sense that you know, this was even more important to you in the COVID context than it would have been a year or two earlier than he was a more purposeful engagement with that particular place. And I'd certainly America West is you know, stunning. I've just saw the movie Nomadland. Much is made of Francis McDormand. So you know, performance, which was one of the requirements, performance, but I think the Oscar should go to the place. I mean, that's that was a vital part of, you know, it was, you know, South Dakota, and Arizona, and so and Nevada, so it was very, you know, and I, when I was watching the movie, I was saying, oh that's...
Scott Allen
what's a character can never
Brad Jackson
go to a movie with a geography, geography or leadership scholar, you know, but I think the point, the point is, it's important that obviously, these you know, we have strong attachments to mountains and rivers, etc., and, and those, but if we can harness that same sensitivity and attachment to the kind of more mundane immediate environment that we're in our home, our community, the organization that we're in, and give that as, as much of a sort of importance. I think it might, you know, he can, it's interesting how that can change the leadership dynamic. And I suppose that that that sort of bigger argument is what I sort of picked up on. I mean, let's face it, we're in we have a great geographic advantage here in being remote. Because the rest of the world is remote to us. That's the way we tend to look at it. But so we are an island. And it's no accident that the islands have generally done better in you know because they're able to manage borders, but we were an incredibly integrated country. We have massive international tourists, figures, we had, you know, students, international students, a lot of Kiwis live, overseas, etc. And so we are and we're probably one of the most diverse populations on the planet. So it's not as if we're hermetically sealed from the rest of the world. But, I think what was very important is that you know, Jacinda Ardern, you know, our Prime Minister, and was able to, if you like, speak to New Zealanders in a very responsible and responsive way. And the kind of key difference that I picked up on was then compared to say, the media messages I was getting in Australia versus, you know, in New Zealand was that Jacinda was sort of speaking alongside her, you know, chief medical officer to, to, to basically, you know, very calm way considered way, speak to the 90% that we're really, you know, really keen to conform, not just conform, but be proactive versus speaking to the 10%, that we're not, you know..so it was always to the majority, the Wise the majority, the majority, and did it in a way it was just involved us made us feel very, you know, proud of what we were doing, but also, you know, spoke in a very real way about the risks. So, I, you know, I just genuinely felt that every night, we were having a conversation, because, you know, we'd gone through the flights, we've gone through the borders, we got there, we finally sat down a hotel, turned on the news. And we just felt that we were being spoken to personally about this. And there was an obligation, we were clear about what our obligation was, but there was also a sort of a sense of pride, that we would find a way as a country to respond to this and to really, and I suppose the focus on localism, really vital, you know, what were the efforts being made in various, you know, remote parts of the country to sort of build that solidity. And that sort of sense of, and we're not a, you know, a New Zealand's a, you know, a pretty quiet, unassuming group, we don't like to show off. But there was just a way of showing and what was really powerful, and this goes back to processes, this genuine collective, sort of celebrating the collective effort. So it wasn't about individual heroes, or whatever, it was a sort of collective effort. And I suppose that's where that process purpose in place, really, I think she had intuitively so much is made of, quote her persona and how she but I think she intuitively and others too, got how important it was to work around the place, purpose and, and process there. So that was the kind of key people in a difference.
Scott Allen
Well, and the performance has been solid. Right? And she used her position of authority to influence others. And would you say a little bit more about kind of what was what, what are some aspects of the source of you said, you said, pride, you said collective, you use some very important words there. And she was a piece of that conversation, obviously, her leadership was, but can you think of other sources of what I mean, I love the image of you and your wife kind of sitting down in front of the TV and feeling a part of something larger? What's the source of that? Is it the place? I mean, that's it must be a piece of it. Right?
Brad Jackson
Yeah, yeah, I think and I do think, you know, I'd go back to the fact that we are two nations, you know, the founding nations, and then the more recent, the crown and the and the Pākehā. So we're kind of a, I think that the Maori the wisdom and knowledge were a really important part of that, which and it's become critical as far as thinking about the longer term, thinking about the much broader community and beyond the immediate family, and, and so I sort of that, that, I think, we've had that sort of fusion of leadership philosophies and ideas, which are, which are very, very important to and I think, also, we've had a, you know, a government, it's, you know, compared to a lot of parts of the world, there's still a fair bit of trust in public servants. And, and what the government does, we've had some very good Prime Minister's very good cabinets over the last 15 years. So it's not, there's not overnight in terms of, you know, Helen Clark, John Key...there's that there's a good lineage there. So I think that stability and trust and the government was sort of there, but it was, it was done in a spoken to in a very much respectful, but all about the "we," you know, and re-emphasizing, and being able to emphasize small wins, things that were going well, things that needed to be addressed apologies when they were needed. And I just feel that sort of just being able to speak to the zeitgeist to know the country, and sort of taking some pride in the fact that we were doing well, relative to the rest of the world. We were quietly a competitive nation. I mean, we like to excel we call this "punching above our weight" in sport and rugby, and cricket, all this kind of stuff. So so that was partly that but in a kind of constructive way. So when we did have to reverse and go back into lockdown in Auckland, I think there was it was quite a stain. We thought we were and of course, there's always the possibility every day that we will have to, you know, return to that. And so it kind of an appreciation for that. And there's a sort of a sense now that people are probably being a bit too taking it for granted. So there's trying to inject that energy and to say, you know, we've got to be vigilant here, as well, so yeah, and you know, it actually, you know, in the recent election, this was the first time the national one government had succeeded, and being the only government to be able to run. And so I think it's actually paid dividends as far as her popularity and the party's popularity to so it's reinforced that I think, because now it's like, Okay, what next? Expectations are gonna need to be managed there as well?
Scott Allen
Well, there's a leadership scholar, is there anything else that stood out for you that you're observing kind of witnessing firsthand?
Brad Jackson
Yeah, I think it's the notion that, and this is where "place" is very important is that you know, with a lot of leadership scholarship is focused and research and development on individual organizations, teams. So what I call intra-organizations. So an awful lot of our work is still very focused that way. But really, to me the frontier, and I've been, I was already sort of onto this, and thinking about this, I moved into a school of government, and did that because I wanted to get more into sort of systemic change, and in particular, cross-sectoral change. So how do you bring disparate organizations from the business, the iwi, which is the indigenous sector, the community, and the government, public sectors? How do we get them to connect to be able to sustain focused change? And so one of the critical answers that you're not going to be surprised here is place? So if you're able to actually say, look, this, this place is significant is important to people, and not only to them, but their predecessors and the next generation, and the next generation? We need consistent effort there to work on "What is this place? What does it need to be? How does it get there?" So I suppose that's something that I've seen has been quite powerful. And I do actually see that this is going to ironically, in a, you know, a global age, I think this is going to become a key way in which we are able to make substantial change. You know, I mean, obviously, this is globalized efforts, but actually, it's got to be done. And of course, the key task of leaders and of course is to, you know, create the kind of collaborative governance structures that sustain that, but then the collective leadership that gives it life keeps its momentum. So I think this is going to really become increasingly important. And so that's the other thing I've noticed, etc. So, and a lot of the people who weren't, you know, they were accountable to power players and rivalries, etc., people saying, you got to check that at the door. This is something much bigger than this particular organization, and its share price and all these other kinds of things. So I'm actually noticed that's particularly in the, you know, the Waikato where I'm based, you know, which is in the sort of central part of the North Island, very strong Maori presence, who we have campuses in Hamilton, as well as the Toronto in which is the Bay of Plenty. We're really getting much more engaged with our, our place, we are the University of Waikato, we need to be much more instrumental and, you know, more interventionists there, in terms of rebuilding the place, but also with the university as well. So, you know, so much focus on connecting globally, which is important, but actually, I sort of think it's an important thing, really, really great universities are very much of their place. And they use that to create strong connections with all the universities that are of that place.
Scott Allen
It's time, Brad, for me to share with you the second award, and you ready, I've already mentioned it, you just kind of blew past it. And you have the coolest title of any leadership book ever written, especially in Leadership Studies book, which is a Very Short, Fairly Interesting and Reasonably Cheap Book about Studying Leadership and it's all of those things. It is. Once you tell us a little bit about the story behind the title of that book. And then you mentioned earlier that you're working on the third edition.
Brad Jackson 29:21
Well, we've done the third edition can can't Yeah, it was Ken Perry, who was a tremendous leadership scholar, in fact, he was responsible for that people's Brisbanian from Queensland, and he was instrumental in encouraging me to move there. But he was Director of the Center for the study of leadership Victoria University of Wellington when I first arrived from Canada in about 99. And I said, "What's this leadership thing?" you know, you do this and this, and I thought, well, actually, that's kind of what I've been doing. So, we wrote a pop book together called the Hero Manager, about you know, nine exceptional New Zealand chief executives and reasonably popular, gave Stephen Covey a bit of a run. But I got approached to write a book a sort of grammar book on leadership and I bought by sage and I was quite keen I was I just moving into the leadership space, I think one of the best ways to, to learn a new field is to try to teach it and write about it early on when it's still novel to you, you know, it's more effective at teaching in a way because you kind of still a mystery, it's still exciting. And what happened is only used to be the book reviews editor for Journal of Management Studies. And I got a copy of Chris Gray's book, which had that same title. And it was the first in a series Yeah, man. In fact, there are a number of fields there. But leadership, I think, was either the second or the third. And what happened is like this arrived, and I thought, gosh, that's not this grammar, you know, and, but amazingly, I saw the book and the next day, my publisher said, hey, we've got this idea, how about you do the very short fairly interesting. So I just grabbed it. And then I said, I know the very man that needs to be part of that was Ken Perry. So we, we worked through that a lot more experienced was a lot more knowledgeable. So really, really helped me just sort of said, looking at sort of writing this, I was teaching an honors course and leadership. And as I was teaching it, we were writing the book and working on what was working, what wasn't. And so it's evolved since then. And it's done really, really well. And it's funny, a lot of people kind of I get notes from various doctoral students around the world, even MBA students saying thank you because this book is really helped demystify this stuff, because we've written a fairly humorous way, but also trying to create a more holistic. So the sort of functional instrumental work as well as the critical work and just, I mean, when I talk to business people, I always say, look, it's so it's right about leisure than that you'd never find in a regular book. All that stuff is about the icebergs, all the stuff below in academia, most business people are blissfully unaware of so. So yeah, we've done I've done three editions now. And so that, you know, just but it is trying to create a more holistic, appreciative perspective of a whole range of perspectives that we've got, it's a wonderful field to be a part of, and, you know, I've gone off to, you know, public management, public policy, social enterprise social management, I've always thought no, this is my home, this is where I belong is with the ILA and the leadership community, too. So it's a great way of keeping in touch that
Scott Allen 32:47
You and you had mentioned Ken's passing, is there a story that comes to mind for you about working with him that stands out, that listeners would love to hear?
Brad Jackson 32:57
Yeah, and it's, but what was amazing was, you know, his battle with pancreatic cancer. And what was amazing was how many stories that Steve Kempster and I received, we were, you know, we, we took on, we put together a special issue, in honor of Ken Perry in the Journal of Management and Organization. And it was, I was just amazed how many people had a story about Katy Perry, how he spent time with a particular, you know, doctoral student, or challenged a business executive or took someone to a cricket match, or, or whatever, you know, and so, so it was fun. I mean, I have a lot of, you know, really great, you know, personal memories from him. But what's done me was probably more important is how many other people he, you know, created stories with and, and just had this lovely kind of holistic view, wasn't very judgmental, that sort of asked the ask the questions that had to be that other people wouldn't ask if you know what I mean. So I thought that was the thing I sort of most, not most value, it was just straight, very honest. approach to two things. And, you know, I remember as we published this sort of book, you know, that the Hero Manager, and we, you know, we went to the big book launch, and they put us up in this tiny hotel room. And the two of you ever shared a bed together, it was kind of it was a bit thinking, Well, you know, fame is not and so, yeah, and I was just, you know, really pleased that we were able to get the third edition out... it's, it was interesting, you know, truly global perspective, because, you know, there's been a kind of divide between Europe and North America and you know, but actually, he had Why you're bringing old scholars together? Everybody knew Ken.. Yeah. And his favorite phrase was his The thing was what he would say, "here's the thing," you know? Oh, what's he gonna say now?
Scott Allen 35:15
Maybe that's what maybe we'll call the episode that in his honor. "Here's the Thing"
Brad Jackson 35:21
like, this must be the place
Scott Allen 35:27
Well, Brad, I hope you have a wonderful Friday, it's Thursday at 4:45 here 4:47. It's probably about 10:47 or 11:47. There now I am. And I hope you have a wonderful day. Thank you for the work that you do. Thanks for bringing this dimension. I love that connection to geography. And I love looking at leadership through that lens. It's just a beautiful way of and you've stretched my thinking in a really fun way today in this conversation. I know our listeners will enjoy it as well. So be well sir. I hope you have a wonderful - I cannot wait to buy you a pint at the next I LA I hope in Switzerland. And we will catch up in person
Brad Jackson 36:13
There's quite fine Swiss beer there so I am going to hold you to that. Yeah, just to sort of acknowledge and to say thank you so much scope for the invitation and the way in which you've thoroughly enjoyed it too. It's just gone so quickly. And, but just to sort of, for those that are listening, in particular, to stay well. And to you know, think about the connection to a place to use that as a really key driver for who they are and what they're about and generations to but to stay well stay healthy and we will find a way we are finding a way and so stay well.
Scott Allen 36:50
Thank you, sir. Have a great day.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai