203 The World Isn’t Built For Your Cycle with Claire Baker

Your Cycle Isn’t the Problem — The Way We’ve Been Taught to Live Is

What if the days you feel flat, emotional, tired, or “off” aren’t something to fix…
 but something to listen to?

In this episode, Sally is joined by Claire Baker — menstrual cycle educator, author, and founder of Cycle Coach School — for a grounded, honest conversation about menstrual cycle awareness, agency, and the long-term impact of ignoring the body’s rhythms.

We’re not asking you to ‘love your period’, we’re just saying it might be nice to stop fighting with your body.

🔥 WHAT WE TALK ABOUT

🩸 Claire’s journey off hormonal birth control — and what it was like to experience a natural cycle after 10 years on the pill
 🌙 The four phases of the menstrual cycle, explained with nuance (not rigid rules or social-media trends)
 📉 Why cycle tracking is about curiosity, self-trust, and noticing patterns — not biohacking or optimisation
 🧠 “Cycle amnesia” and why writing things down helps us understand ourselves over time
 💔 The shame, silence, and secrecy many of us grew up with around periods — and why inner-teenager repair matters
 🔄 How cycle awareness remains deeply relevant in perimenopause, menopause, and post-menopause
 🌱 One small, practical way to begin building a kinder relationship with your body today

“Everything is cyclical — our energy, creativity, relationships, and lives.”

🧭 ABOUT CLAIRE BAKER

Claire Baker has spent over a decade teaching women how to work with their menstrual cycle rather than against it. She is the author of 50 Things You Need to Know About Periods, creator of Adore Your Cycle, and founder of Cycle Coach School. Her work has been featured in Cosmopolitan and Women’s Health.

🎧 Listen if you’re tired of powering through — and ready to meet your body with more curiosity, compassion, and trust.

📲 Connect with Claire:

Website: www.clairebaker.com

Instagram: www.instagram.com/_clairebaker_

Sally's Links:

Email: info@sallygarozzo.com 

[Free Guide] Healing The Trauma Underlying Your Menopause Symptom Severity: https://www.sallygarozzo.com/healingtraumatheguide

[On-Demand Masterclass] How To Heal The Trauma Underlying Your Menopause Symptom Severity [£17]: https://www.sallygarozzo.com/healingtrauma

[On-Demand Workshop] Redefine Your Values at Menopause and Live Life in Alignment With Them [£27]: https://www.sallygarozzo.com/redefine 

[Online Practitioners Diploma - Self Paced] Menopause Wellbeing Practitioner [£127]: https://www.sallygarozzo.com/meno

[One to One] Bespoke Transformational Hypnotherapy & Coaching: https://www.sallygarozzo.com/rapid-transformational-therapist 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sallygarozzomindmentor

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallygarozzo/

Send me a WhatsApp: https://wa.me/message/FTARBMO7CRL

Transcript

Sally (00:00.916)
So today on the podcast, I'm speaking with a lovely Claire Baker. For over a decade, Claire has been teaching thousands of women how to stop fighting their cycle and start working with it instead. She's the author of 50 things you need to know about periods. The creator of the beloved program, Adore Your Cycle and the founder of Cycle Coach School, where she trains professionals to weave menstrual cycle awareness into their work.

Claire has this wonderful gift for making conversations about periods feel easy, approachable, and even joyful. Her work has been featured in Cosmopolitan and Women's Health. And when she's not coaching or teaching or writing, you'll probably find her dancing in the kitchen or browsing her favorite bookstores. So Claire, welcome to the podcast today. How are you?

Claire (00:51.466)
Hey, Sally. I'm well, thank you. Yeah, I was just saying to you, I've just woken up from a nap, so I feel very rested, but alert as well. I'm here and excited to speak.

Sally (01:00.458)
I know that feeling. was in Spain recently and I had the most incredible power nap. I had a cold before the power nap and after the power nap it miraculously disappeared. So this is how powerful power naps are. Perhaps we'll talk about this actually. So let's talk about you. Can you take us back to the beginning? What drew you into cycle awareness in the first place?

Claire (01:29.518)
Yeah, I totally just stumbled and fell into this work. I certainly never sought it out. I had been on hormonal birth control for about 10 years, all through my teens and my 20s. And then I had my quarter life crisis when I was about 25. And I just went through my life with a fine tooth comb and was assessing everything.

Sally (01:41.066)
Wow.

Claire (01:55.894)
It just started to feel a bit weird to me to be taking this little pill every day. And I just got curious about what it might be like to have a natural menstrual cycle again. but I'd suffered a lot with hormonal acne as a teenager. So I was nervous about coming off it. So I did a lot of research into hormones, the endocrine system, gut health, all of, all of that. and so when I came off it, I was.

I was fairly like, I was very curious and learning a lot all of the time about, what was going to happen. And then nothing happened. My period just didn't come back for the whole first 12 months. had post-pill amenorrhea for a year and I used that year to just continue this deep dive. And at the same time I was in tandem, I was studying nutrition and study studying health coaching. So.

On one hand, I was learning all about the female body and how it works. And then on the other hand, I was doing this health and life coaching certification, but I wasn't learning anything about the female body in that certification. And it just sort of like, it felt like a really interesting contrast. And this was back in 2013, for sure things have changed now. But at the time it was still.

Sally (03:10.922)
Yeah.

Claire (03:13.772)
you know, talking about periods and talking about menstrual cycles was not something that people really did that much. So had a few select teachers and once my cycle did return, I'm really grateful for them and for what I had learned so that I could start to track it and start to get familiar with all these new hormonal phases that I was experiencing. Because for me, coming off the pill, it was like going from black and white to technicolor. I just had such, you know, such an incredible

awakening, honestly, how different I felt being off it compared to being on it. And so I'm really glad I had, these teachings to kind of, you know, help me navigate through that. So that was about 12 years ago now. And then it just naturally became a part of my work with clients. I've always worked with women. And so it just naturally became a part of the conversations we were having in coaching sessions. And, over the years just began to shape my.

work till it ultimately became really the core of my work actually.

Sally (04:14.922)
That's so interesting. So you were on the pill for 10 years. What was it like being on the pill for that long? When you look back, do you see a difference in yourself from being on the pill and then not being on the pill?

Claire (04:31.65)
Definitely. Yeah. When I first came off it and when my cycle started to return, the biggest differences I noticed were around my physical body. So around my energy levels and my strength and my libido, I would say those things were suddenly like, they were cyclical. They changed a lot from week to week. And I think parts of, yeah, parts of me just, it's hard to even describe, came more alive.

I would say creatively, think I just felt myself in a different way and I was moving around the world in a different way. And I think I also, because part of my story is also pain. So I've also navigated on and off period pain in this time being off the pill. And so also I think having a natural menstrual cycle really taught me how to slow down, how to practice.

rest administration, how to listen to the feedback signals that I was getting now through my menstrual cycle, now that it was alive and well again, I really learned how to soften because I'm what we might call a very type A personality, very ambitious, very growth minded, always thinking about the next thing and very proud of my accomplishments as well. But I think

menstrual cycle awareness has just really helped me also to appreciate like the softening and the surrender and the letting go that I never really had to do when I had the same hormonal landscape every day while I was on the pill.

Sally (06:07.21)
Hmm.

Sally (06:11.754)
Why is it important to have a natural cycle?

Claire (06:19.308)
Well, there are a few ways of answering that question. And from a physiological perspective, the hormones that we, that are moving through our body when we have a natural menstrual cycle. So for example, estrogen and then progesterone that's created after ovulation, these hormones are really good for our mental health. They support bone health. There's evidence that they can also be supportive in reducing cancer risks.

there are benefits to having these hormones in our body. I think that it can also be important to learn how to trust your body for contraception or conception. And I think that often when we take the pill, if it's for contraception reasons, I'm fully in support of that. think that at certain times, and I'm definitely not anti-pill, I think that it's great to have that option.

Sally (07:05.074)
Okay.

Claire (07:18.712)
But I also think that it takes away some of the agency that women can experience when you actually learn to listen to the biomarkers and the fertility signs that your body is sending you. So I would never say that one is right or wrong, but I think that if we're talking about, you know, why could it be important? Then I think that it can also, you can really build a sense of confidence and trust in yourself when you know how to track ovulation and you can confirm it.

and you know when you're going to bleed and you can begin to prepare for that and to care for yourself through your menstrual cycle. But I don't regret the years that I was on hormonal birth control and I think that it has its purpose for sure. Time and place.

Sally (07:59.883)
Yeah, absolutely. Everything has its time and place. You know, if it's been invented, it's been invented for a reason. And, you know, I always say nothing is all bad and nothing is all good. You know, there's nuances within absolutely everything that we do and take and have. So, yeah. So, for listeners who are brand new, could you give us a simple

Claire (08:04.526)
One.

Claire (08:19.566)
Mm.

Sally (08:26.544)
example or a run through of the four phases of the menstrual cycle?

Claire (08:32.942)
So, when you're experiencing a menstrual cycle, the first thing that we often think about is menstruation, right? And I think, a huge misconception, that a lot of people have, is that there's the week that you're bleeding and then the rest is just the same. And when you are on birth control, essentially that is the experience. You have that week that you take the sugar pills and you're bleeding and then the rest is the same. Actually, there are four phases, like you say, so there's that...

Sally (08:38.313)
Yeah.

Claire (08:58.796)
week of menstruation or the, you know, however many days that you're bleeding. And we call cycle day one, that very first day of full blood flow. So, when you get your period, that day one, that's the beginning of your next menstrual cycle. And it also marks the end of the prior one. so menstruation takes us then into the follicular phase and the follicular phase, is when the body is preparing.

ovulation. So, once we finish bleeding, then we move into the follicular phase and your reproductive system is preparing for ovulation. And then ovulation is that next phase. And technically, ovulation is really only a moment. It's that one day that the egg is being released. But often, we talk about this ovulatory phase or the fertile window, which does encompass more days in the menstrual cycle.

about five days, if we're talking about a fertile window. And then, we move into the luteal phase after ovulation, and that's when the hormone progesterone is higher and that hormone, you know, while in that first follicular phase, estrogen is sort of ramping us up, and getting us out into the world. And, you know, we kind of want to be seen, we want to be social. That hormone progesterone is more about nesting. It sort of brings us back into ourself. It's kind of like the no hormone, the cozy sleepy hormone.

And that one then takes us, that luteal phase takes us back down, through the pre-menstrual until we then begin to bleed again. And my teachers at Red School, Alexandra Pope and Shani Hugo, well, it's a talk about the inner seasons of the menstrual cycle and those four phases correlating with winter being menstruation, spring, then ovulation is summer, and then autumn is the luteal phase. And I love that.

Sally (10:47.316)
Mm-hmm.

Sally (10:51.21)
It's lovely actually. I'm interviewing Alexandra Pope next week. I know, I know. I'm so stoked. And I read her book probably about 10, no, probably about 15 years, no, 13 years ago, I would say. And it just blew me away. It blew me away. The idea of...

Claire (10:56.121)
wow, amazing.

Sally (11:14.782)
dividing our month into those weeks and each week having a certain flavor. And it's not to say that you rigidly stick to that. It's just an idea of what you might be feeling. And if you're not feeling those things, maybe there's something to look at or maybe there's something that's out of alignment. Because I think those seasons are like an indicator for us, like a measurement marker that we can perhaps

latch onto something for us to recognise within our own bodies? Do you prepare yourself for each phase? Or is there anything that you do to support each phase?

Claire (11:54.732)
Yeah, definitely. think that, you know, each phase has its own magic. And I would say that most of the women I work with have a phase in their menstrual cycle where they feel at home and they feel like themselves and they feel really good. It might be like their favorite, their favorite phase. And then there's often a phase where we might feel more challenged and more tender or there might be more trip ups.

And we can learn a lot from both for sure. For me, I know that like, again, like I said, I period pain has been part of my story. So I really love menstruation because I love how it like gives me a chance to stop and to just, and release and let go and do a bit of reflecting and setting some, some intentions for the next month ahead. But at the same time, I have to really take care of that.

that time as well, because I don't know how it's going to be. yeah. So I definitely do a lot to ensure that I have space and, and time to rest during menstruation because of the magic that it offers. And also because it can be really challenging. And I would say that every phase has that.

what I call like a menstrual joy, you know, there are opportunities in the lead up to ovulation, for example, where a lot of women do feel like they have more energy, more confidence, feeling like sexier and more open to the world. And I know that that can really be a time where people can really experience a lot of anxiety and overwhelm and tenderness actually as well. Right. So every and also the pre menstrual, you know, that is a phase where

If you struggle with PMS or PMDD can be really tough. And I've seen women transform that phase for themselves because they've learned how to listen to the emotions that are coming up and how to move through them and how to create more space, how to say no and set some boundaries. And then actually they're like, I love this phase. I feel amazing. I feel like this wild kind of raw power emerge and I feel like a bad ass and it feels great. So I think.

Claire (14:07.374)
Yeah, there are so many things that we can do to care for each phase. And I love that question because I think it really helps us to care for these different parts of ourselves. And that's something I love about menstrual cycle awareness is like these different parts of ourselves come alive at different times in the month. And so we get to know these different parts and we get to negotiate with them, care for them, let them be expressed rather than always being the same.

Sally (14:35.656)
That's beautiful. I really love what you've said there. You know, the full range of what it means to be the person that has a menstrual cycle and really dipping into those peaks and troughs, those interesting nooks and crannies and corners of our personality, of our essence of who we are, you know, as women, as people who bleed. And it's so interesting. It's not just black and white. It's very, as you said, glorious technicolor.

Claire (14:40.141)
Yeah.

Sally (15:02.538)
And I would love the world to really embrace that. would be so lovely to actually have that woven into the fabric of our society. would be so much easier for women, wouldn't it, if that were held for us.

Claire (15:18.958)
I think it's, you know, I've seen a lot of change in the last 12 years. Like I said, when I first was exploring like what is ovulation, I had literally no idea really what it actually meant to ovulate. I was 25 and I really didn't know. And gosh, it's changed, you know, I just see like innovations around period apps and cycle tracking. see, sorry, the dogs have just gone.

Sally (15:45.2)
You

That's alright. Don't worry, it's all good.

Claire (15:53.102)
Period products, conversations around advocacy and period poverty, just a general, I think women and people menstruate are more comfortable talking about periods now. We're seeing some change in period policy, some, you know, we still have a long way to go, but I do think it's going in the right direction.

Sally (16:14.21)
I do, I do. In Brighton we have so many young female progressive companies that are emerging that have the female cycle at the core of their business, if you like. it's just, it's so amazing to see these young women setting up these businesses that are super well informed, really friendly to the female cycle. So yeah, love it. Now.

Why do you recommend people begin charting their cycle and why is it such a powerful practice?

Claire (16:52.494)
There's a lot of stuff out in the menstrual cycle awareness world that I just, so, so on one hand, I'm just going to backtrack a little. think it's great that there's more awareness coming out all of the time, right? About, about periods and menstrual cycles. And at the same time, what I'm starting to see more and more is like a lot of fads and cycle thinking, like bio hacking and these tips and tricks that ultimately when we share things on social media.

Sally (17:00.234)
show.

Claire (17:21.038)
We lose nuance, right? We lose the chance to really dive into it. So things are simplified. And I think that that can sometimes cause harm because actually, like I just said earlier, can experience ovulation, for example, as this time where you have more energy and you feel more confident and outgoing. And that is a fairly common story. But I also see so many who also experience that to be a tiring time.

actually very exhausting and draining and the, you know, sort of actually get into the loo to your face and feel relieved that they don't have to worry about anyone else's needs anymore. So I think that what cycle charting offers us is a practice to actually check in with ourselves and our own silky experience. So rather than borrowing TikTok trends or what

someone on Instagram does for their cycle or what I talk about doing for my menstrual cycle, right? It's all your friend or whoever cycle charting gives us a chance every day to take a moment and take a breath and just check in like, cool. What day of my cycle am I on today? What phase does that put me in? Depending on how you're tracking, what methods you're using or your intention, you know, that will depend on what

what you check in with. it could be fertility biomarkers, or it could be your physical energy. could be your creative energy, or you might be tracking changes in, in your sexual energy or relationship. So it just gives us this chance every day to be okay, cool. What's going on? So I think that in itself is powerful to just have that mindfulness and that presence and kindness to yourself each day. think the process holds a lot. And then over time,

Sally (19:05.907)
Yeah.

Claire (19:10.284)
And I would say, usually I would say three months, you know, to start to really see patterns emerge. Then you do start to see like, interesting. noticed that around cycle day 17 each month, I seem to have a bit of a crash and I get frustrated or I end up in an argument with my partner. that's interesting data. Like that can then serve you when you start to think about how you show up around that time in your cycle. Or you might notice that.

there's a repeating theme in certain phases. And so you can begin to work with that. And you might notice that there are some self-care practices you feel drawn to in some weeks and then others you just not bothered about it. rather than trying to follow this like linear, consistent, you know, fitness plan, for example, you might realize that actually you really love doing strength training.

in the lead up to ovulation. And then after that, you drop the weights off a little bit. That feels good to you. And so that's what I think cycle charting really offers us. There's a couple of things there. It's that mindfulness every day, just checking in, how am I doing? What's going on? What's my capacity today? And then it helps us to actually paint this map of what our cyclic experience looks like.

rather than just simply borrowing the theory, which is helpful to get started. I understand that, but there comes a point where we actually need to listen to our bodies rather than, you know, someone on social media or even a book is telling you.

Sally (20:48.65)
Yeah, yeah definitely. And then I guess it's looking back, isn't it? Making sure that we look back over the charts that we've written. I remember before I had a smartphone, I just used to write it on a wall calendar, like how I was feeling, what my energy was like, if I had a headache or if I felt puffy or...

know, low mood or my quality of sleep, things like that. And then I would look back and see if I could recognise a pattern. I definitely had really bad PMS and I didn't listen to my body very much at all, pre reading the Wild Genie. But yeah, I just used to try and power through all the time. And then I would think that I was weak.

for or substandard, know, for not being able to have energy, especially in my, in my, in my bleeds.

Yeah, and I think the way that we, I'm sure things are changing now, but I think the way we advertise tampons and sanitary pads and cups and things, don't even know if cups are advertised on TV. I mean, I don't really watch terrestrial TV now, but what are your thoughts around the way periods are sort of advertised in the mainstream? Do you have any thoughts around how, yeah, how...

how what we see in the media kind of shapes our own experiences of our cycles and what we think about having a cycle.

Claire (22:25.326)
Yeah, I mean, I certainly wasn't brought up seeing images of, you know, all stories of having a period, being a positive thing. grew up in a pretty body positive house. My mom's a nurse. So, you know, we knew all the names for all the different body parts and there's a lot of nudity and just openness about things. But in the, I would say, you know, even still, like I think that the media in storytelling and film.

at advertising, like ultimately the overarching myth is that it's a burden to be in a female body and that a period is something to be hidden away. It's something not that you don't talk about. My girlfriend's and I never spoke about periods ever at school. You know, I don't even know how we got through high school without, like, I actually can't believe it, but we didn't, we didn't talk about, we didn't talk about periods at all. And,

Yeah, I think it has, I think that for sure. Again, I think it's changing. think we've moved on, I think from the blue liquid in period ads, I'm seeing more red blood like looking liquid in, in period product ads, which is great. but like you, don't spend a lot of, yeah, I don't spend a lot of time engaging with that. Occasionally I'll walk through the supermarket and go and check out the, the period product aisle to see what's there.

Sally (23:51.466)
Hmm.

Claire (23:52.71)
And I'm always, you know, I feel like I'm always a little bit disappointed and also a little bit delighted. think I'm seeing more period underwear available in supermarkets now, which is cool. And then at the same time there is, if I'm honest, there's this really skeptical part of me that's like, who's profiting from this? know, like some of them are, you know, really great independent, like you say, female owned brands and businesses. But then I see like,

Sally (24:19.081)
Yeah.

Claire (24:23.669)
menopause moisturizer and I'm like, what? Like, oh, you know, perimenopause chocolate. I'm like, this is just really like, I don't know. So I think it's, you know, there's a, there's great. I, and I think that is, you know, there's a, yeah, capitalism is going to capitalism, right? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Sally (24:29.898)
you

Sally (24:40.382)
Yes, it's a double-edged sword. It's a double-edged sword, like you say. Yeah, yeah, it's both good and bad. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. No, I think it's good. just, always, no, you're right. I, we never spoke about periods at school, I don't think. And I just remember the shame. I was thinking about this yesterday, actually, the feeling of shame that would occur. So I remember.

I remember a teacher, so all the girls had to go into the school hall and I remember a teacher showing us a sanitary pad like this and she would go, make sure you change your sanitary pad often because as soon as the, can't believe I'm gonna say, as soon as the pad hits the air, it will smell. And just the shame of like being a woman with this,

Claire (25:30.904)
Wow.

Sally (25:37.611)
this having to deal with this stuff, you know, came over me. And also I remember being in a toilet once with my, I think I was about 10 years old. And I said to my mum, what are these, you know, on the wall that you can buy? And she said, oh, I'll tell you when you're older. And I don't know how I felt about that. I mean, obviously it's so hard for parents to know.

what to say, how to get it right. I'm not a parent. I've never been through that challenge, so I can't really say. But I do, I just remember the feeling. I remember the feeling of secrecy, of shame, of, you know, we can't really talk about this. And I do, I remember having to like hide how I was feeling with the pain, you know, the physical pain that I was feeling as well. And

you know, thinking back, I feel quite sorry for my, for the younger version of me that had to go through that every week. And I don't have periods now. I've been two years without periods. And, and it's only now when I'm sort of looking back. So I've been, I've been sort of embracing this time in my life where I'm just relieved not to have a cycle anymore. Actually, I don't, I don't particularly miss it, but I'm starting, I'm starting to talk.

to more and more people about cyclical awareness on the podcast. And it is starting to make me think about those years that went before where I sort of tuned out from it or didn't really embrace it or felt shame around it. And I'm starting to feel like I want to do some of the tender repair work, you know, on...

on that younger version of me who sort of went through that or felt she had to disengage or dissociate or, you know, not really think about her cycle or override it or just take loads of painkillers and just get on with it. But feeling that debilitating tiredness sometimes around Bleed the Bleed and not having the availability to rest, to give myself what I needed and to...

Sally (27:53.173)
feel like I had to power through. It's really sad. It's really sad when you think about how you had to sort of deny your own needs. Yeah, to survive, yeah.

Claire (28:02.382)
Yeah, to survive. Yeah. Yeah, really. Yeah, really. Yeah. And needs that aren't just for that. Like we said earlier, it's not just about menstrual needs. It's not just about what you need when you bleed, which is already significant. It's about needs every day because the menstrual cycle is happening every day. If you have a menstrual cycle every day, there is a new hormonal shift. And so I think about, yeah, like

I struggled in high school, you know, I found it tough. And I, and I think my mom was going through perimenopause when I was getting, you know, going through menarche and getting my period and just starting my periods. And I just think, God, we, really had a lot of conflict in our house. And I just wonder like, who knows, but how my, our relationship had been different as well. If we had.

you know, beyond, yes, we had the language of like genitalia, but if we had more language to actually share, our experiences and for her to, you know, to understand what she was moving through and then also for, for me. And I just think like how many of my moods were probably just really, you know, PMS, you know, PMS that had just like, maybe I was just in my loo to your face whenever we had those huge arguments, but I would have no idea because you know, I didn't have this language.

this understanding at all. And again, I think it's changing. Like I do see, I see, you know, friends of mine going into schools, sharing menstrual and cyclical workshops with, with kids and with teenagers. And, and I think that, you know, that's really important work. And I think, like you say, it's important work for us as adults to go back and to spend some time with that, with that part of ourselves and

Yeah, tend to some of those needs now, right? Because we still have the same needs, even if you're post-menopause, you're still a cyclical human who still needs time for rest, time to express different parts of yourself. Like all of those needs are still there. They may not follow the same rhythm, but they're still there. And I think it's really powerful to go back and spend some time with what I call like the menarche self. It's not just about that moment of bleeding. It's like,

Claire (30:21.25)
Who were you during those, those teenage years? Like who were you becoming as that power awoke in your body? Like, what were you drawn to? What were you curious about? You know, and I think there's some really interesting parallels with like the inner, in a child work that I know, you know, lot of therapists, maybe yourself, you know, also does like looking at like, yeah, who was that little person, that little human and just acknowledging them and making room for them. yeah.

Sally (30:49.148)
Yeah, going back to the inner teenager is something that we don't always think about doing, actually. We think about going back to the inner child, the six-year-old, the four-year-old, the ten-year-old, but the part of us, the teenager, you know, the teenager who...

Claire (30:57.038)
Mm.

Yeah.

Sally (31:10.588)
who started her period and I'm getting flashbacks left, right and centre when I remember. had to go to... The first day I started my period I was 12 years old and I thought I needed a poo. I was like, I really need a poo and I sat on the loo and I was like, my god there's blood and it was only a little bit and I was like, mum, I've started... That's what I said, I've started in my...

thick London accent and she very pragmatically came up the stairs and went, right, right, okay. And she got the bag of sanitary pads and said, right, let's read the instructions. Bless her. She was probably like, a bit thrown. And I just remember having to wear it feeling really, well, first of all, these big sanitary pads when I was younger were so uncomfortable. And you just think, God, you feel like everyone can see it.

Claire (32:07.458)
Mm-hmm.

Sally (32:07.562)
as well and you don't know when to change it you don't know how you can't sort of feel into how heavy it's it's going to be if it's going to be a little bit of spotty or if you're going to flood so you keep going to the toilet and I remember we had to go out this day as well we were going to um a race meet my dad was a um he had a motorbike shop and he sponsored this this young chap um

Claire (32:16.813)
Yeah.

Sally (32:33.546)
And I remember, you know, sitting in the caravan and just thinking, God, do I have access to a toilet, you know, and navigating the sensation. It was like a bit of an out of body experience in a way. And I remember overhearing my mom saying to her friend, oh, she started her period today. So yeah, was, it's an interesting flashback as we're talking. And I wonder if the listeners, perhaps when they're listening to this and maybe,

Claire (32:45.998)
Mmm.

Sally (33:02.25)
re-experiencing their own... what's it called when you first start up at Menarche? Menarche?

Claire (33:05.08)
Yeah.

Claire (33:09.248)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, think about it. It's, it's pretty wild, you know, to go through your whole life without that happening and then for it to just happen. Like it's big. It's a really big deal. Yeah. So I think it is. It's, it's, it's very interesting to look back. I actually don't remember mine. I don't remember it at all. And I've, I've, yeah, I know I don't remember it. for some reason, it's not a memory that I've held onto.

Sally (33:20.906)
just like that.

Sally (33:31.015)
Really?

Claire (33:39.222)
I remember a lot of things around it. remember wondering when it would come because I started much later than my friends. And I remember my mom being really curious about it, but yeah, I remember then trying to use tampons and just failing terribly because I was attempting, you know, it was just bad. my God. have such a memory of trying to ride a bike one day with this tampon, essentially just hanging out of my whole body.

trying to flush pads. Like I just had no idea what I was doing, but I don't remember the first time.

Sally (34:12.554)
That's interesting. Have you thought about why that might be or just one of those memory blocks?

Claire (34:17.39)
Yeah, I mean, I could, I could guess it could be something around wanting, you know, I do remember wanting to keep it hidden. I didn't tell my mom. I didn't tell anyone. I just got some tampons and I just got on with it and I just took care of it. You know, I'm the eldest of five and I think I was just like, all right, I'm just going to deal with this. I guess. And, and while I look back now and think, that was such a big

deal at the time. think I just thought, well, everyone else has been had their periods for at least a year or so now all my friends finally it's here. I'm just going to make, you know, struggle around with this tampon rather than asking for help or rather than making a big deal out of it. Like it's very on brand for me to do something like.

Sally (35:10.034)
Yeah, that makes sense being the eldest child as well, having that sense of like, almost like being a surrogate mother, perhaps, and yeah, taking on the weight, the burden, the responsibility, and then, I'll deal with this, I'll deal with this myself, Yeah, not.

Claire (35:17.904)
Totally.

Mm-hmm.

my God, totally. Yeah. And I know it was hurtful for my mom. know that she was upset that I didn't share it with her. Like she was so excited. Her first born, her daughter, like the excitement that I see in my friends now when their kids start menstruating. And I think, God, really, you know, I think it's such a good lesson, isn't it? In like how asking for help helps us to actually strengthen our relationships because I was like, I'll just get on with it. And mom, think really wanted that.

moment and you know we didn't have it. Yeah.

Sally (35:57.738)
So...

Sally (36:01.414)
a non-parent I can't, I can't quite, although I am a step-mom and I do remember when my step-daughter started their period and there was, there was a, there was a sense of, my husband's eldest daughter when she started she sort of came up to me and sort of sat next to me and I think Graham had said Izzy started her period and she wants a little bit of support.

And I felt very honored and very privileged and very like, okay, I need to approach this tenderly because I don't wanna be overbearing about it. I have a tendency to be like, let's go all in with all the knowledge that I have and make sure that you're okay. I don't wanna do that, but also don't wanna be too flippant and too standoffish. it was...

It was a real sort of moment where was like, okay, I have to approach this very sensitively and ask her what she needs. Is there anything that she's worried about, anything that she's curious about? it's more, for me, I think it was more about asking questions rather than just going in with too much of the pragmatism or too much of the overbearing knowledge dumping on her. Yeah, because I think that's what I really needed.

Claire (37:22.155)
Yeah, I think.

Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that perspective because when I think back and I think what would I have liked? Like I see some of my friends or people I know creating like period parties for their kids or buying them gifts and making, you know, this ritual around it. And my adult self thinks, that's so beautiful. And then my like, yeah, my teenage self is just like cringe, cringe, like get away from me. I couldn't think of anything worse than that.

Sally (37:54.441)
Yeah.

Claire (37:54.958)
Um, you know, like I just can't, like, I don't want that. I don't want the ritual and the celebration either. think actually just having some questions would have, would have been really lovely. Um, so I appreciate you sharing that. Yeah. Just like creating space for curiosity. Um, and for the, yeah, for the person who's experiencing this significant moment to share how the experience actually is for them.

Sally (38:05.833)
Yeah.

Sally (38:20.38)
Yeah, yeah.

Claire (38:20.878)
rather than projecting your own stuff onto it as well, which is, I imagine, not easy, not easy as well when you're like a parent guiding someone.

Sally (38:29.296)
Gosh, yeah, it's not easy. yeah, you can't you I think it's an impossible job, actually. And you cannot get it perfect. You cannot, you know, you, you can try to get it right. But in trying to get it right, you might get it wrong. So, yeah, I don't think, yeah, I think it's an impossible job.

Okay, where are we? So we've got some more time left. I would love to keep going. I love this digression though. It's been, it's been wonderful. yeah, actually let's talk about for listeners who might be in perimenopause or postmenopause. How can cycle awareness still be relevant for them?

Claire (39:11.566)
I'm gonna come to this question, Sally. I'm just trying to figure out why my messages are going off. I swear I told them do not disturb, but I just can't figure out how to turn them off. I don't want them to keep going.

Sally (39:21.926)
Claire (39:28.942)
Okay, I think I'm just going to, I think it's on.

Sally (39:34.506)
That's okay.

Claire (39:37.326)
Sorry about that.

Sally (39:38.238)
No, it's fine. It's fine. We have pings every now and again on the podcast. So yeah, don't worry.

Claire (39:42.926)
Sure, sure, sure. Sorry, would you mind asking me that question again?

Sally (39:48.689)
Yeah, of course. So for listeners who might be in perimenopause or even postmenopause, how can cycle awareness still be relevant to them?

Claire (39:59.288)
Hmm. So, if you're in perimenopause, then I actually think that cycle awareness is, is more important than ever. I would say specifically tracking ovulation because that's going to give you a lot of data that you can work with to figure out what's happening with your hormones. often women and

People who menstruate notice that there is a lengthening or shortening of their menstrual cycle. And what's happening there is that the timing of ovulation is actually changing. So it's not just that your period is coming sooner or later randomly. It's the timing of ovulation is changing or that luteal phase is shortening. so without going too far into those details, that actually tells us a lot. If it's that first half, the follicular phase shortening.

or if it's that loo to your phase shortening. So that can tell you a lot already just by saying like, okay, when is ovulation happening? And then how does that relate to when you're getting your periods? And particularly as cycles can become more irregular, this again can become like that handrail, just something for you to use every day to check in.

How's my capacity today? as energy levels can really fluctuate during that time and capacity can change too. So again, it's that like opportunity each day for presence, for kindness, for curiosity and that check-in. And then you'll probably notice that some of those patterns that you have maybe been tracking previously will start to change as well. perhaps if you felt really energetic in your pre-ovulatory phase,

traditionally or historically in your menstrual cycle experience, you might start noticing that that might change. And those patterns can be really important and helpful to track as well. And then as you get closer to menopause, then you'll also be able to track, when is this moment of menopause actually occurring? Because as I'm sure, you your listeners know, menopause is actually that 12 month moment after your last period. So it's no bleeding at all, no menstruating for a full year.

Claire (42:13.696)
And it's through charting your cycles that you're actually able to really acknowledge that and to get a sense of where you are then in that menopausal journey, because you might have eight months of no periods and then you get a period. So therefore you'll know that you're not in menopause yet. So I think it's really important actually. And it's a big misconception that I get actually that it's that menstrual cycle awareness isn't relevant for.

Sally (42:32.147)
Yeah.

Claire (42:38.946)
folks who are perimenopausal when actually I think it's hugely relevant. And I think this can come down to this myth of the perfect cycle, this perfect 28 day cycle where everyone ovulates on cycle day 14 and it's just not the case at all. And actually I think even if you have an irregular cycle and you're not in perimenopause, then this work is really for you as well. And getting those data points in can help a lot. And then when we're post menopause, so then when

Yeah, menstruation has come to an end. We're no longer ovulating and we've been able to mark that moment again, as there's this opportunity every day to check in and how's my capacity? How's my energy? What's going on? What's alive for me today? Plus we're still cyclical, right? So there may not be a menstrual cycle happening anymore.

But we're still moving through cycles all of the time, inner and outer. There's still the cycle of the moon. If that's something that you feel impacted by, some do, some don't. There are of course the seasons all around us that definitely have an impact on our energy, on our mood, how we show up to the world, how we show up for ourselves. There are of course inner cycles, a creative cycle that you might be in with a project.

or with the loved one, know, cycles in relationships, cycles, like it's just like an infinite amount of these like concentric cycles that we're moving through all the time. And so what I love about this work is that we get to kind of, we get to know what our relationship is with spring, for example. So we get to know what our relationship is like at the beginning of something.

How are you when you start a project? What's it like for you when you start to like take those tender steps out into the world? Are you able to move gently and let yourself wax like the moon or are you just like full throttle like bang out the door? And so I really see that menstrual cycle awareness but any kind of cycle awareness just helps us to get a sense of, okay, so what is this moment like in the?

Claire (44:52.054)
in the creative cycle or if you're in a phase of, you know, you've been in a relationship for a while and you've had that beautiful honeymoon phase and now you're coming perhaps into more of an autumn in your relationship, then you've got language for that and you have an understanding of like, okay, cool. We've been through the spring and the summer together. Now we're in an autumn. Nothing's inherently wrong with that. This is what I know about autumn.

this is what I know works for me. Like let's work with this knowing it's temporary and you're going to come out of it and you're going to move through a winter and come back around again. So I think it helps. I find to navigate transitions, to navigate big changes, to navigate life honestly, in general, there's also the greater life cycle. Right? So, you know, we think post-menopause it's, you know, we could think of it as like an autumn in one's life, those years from about 50 to 75.

But we could also think of it as like within that, like a second spring, there's that like emergence of spring energy there too. So I think it's relevant at any life phase, you know, if I'm honest.

Sally (45:57.993)
Yeah, the pen, a penny's really dropped for me actually, especially with relationships and projects that a project has a life cycle as well. And I'm not a fan of summer. I, I, I joke as I'm allergic to summer. do have like MCAS symptoms that come up like puffiness, swelling. And I feel like there's like a wasps nest in my.

Claire (46:12.046)
in

Sally (46:20.276)
head sometimes with summer, it's quite overwhelming. I love winter, I love autumn and I love spring. But I also recognise how with projects as well, the summer part of a project, like the actual getting out there and standing on stage and delivering the workshop is the most overwhelming part of the project for me. So I really enjoy the planning.

the build up, the lead up to it, the delivery is a tad overwhelming for my nervous system, although I do enjoy it. And then the come down afterwards, know, the sort of post being on stage, the post public speaking dip that you get, that sort of come down. And then maybe you go into sort of like a rest phase again, where you're starting to just envision the next project, for example.

So that is a really powerful realization that I've just had. Were you speaking about the cycles of absolutely everything? I mean, we have our 24 hour cycle as well. We have a cycle when we eat a meal, don't we? Start a main course dessert kind of thing. Digestion is cyclical. Yeah, I never thought of it like that. It's everything.

Claire (47:37.89)
It's everything. Let's just start noticing you're like, hang on a minute. Everything cyclical. so then that begs the question, why do we make it out? Like a menstruating body is, is, is other or strange or weird or should be hidden when actually like everything in nature is cyclical. Human beings are cyclical, know, again, like if, you have a menstrual cycle or not, you're going to move through these.

phases might look a little bit different and they might take longer or be shorter. But, yeah, I still can't quite answer that one. Why then do we make it so weird that we have menstrual cycles when everything is cyclic?

Sally (48:08.648)
Yeah.

Sally (48:24.52)
Hmm, I guess we've not really recognized the cycles. We haven't had that penny drop moment or not enough of us have had that penny drop moment because men do have cycles as well, I believe. I think they have like a testosterone fluctuation, but maybe they're not as tuned into it. I don't know.

Claire (48:45.846)
Yeah, their cycle is more 24 hours. So they have a testosterone cycle. The male body moves through a very similar to the circadian rhythm. So essentially, you know, we also move through this circadian rhythm with hormones over a 24 hour period. Their testosterone cycle is essentially, you know, over that 24 hour period. But I definitely, you know, I see, you know, my partner is male and I see him

go through cycles of his own, of course, as well, because we are, of course, more than just our biology. Of course, we all are. And so there is this cyclic imprint. I think that affects all of us in different ways, regardless of our hormonal makeup.

Sally (49:20.745)
Yeah.

Sally (49:27.411)
Yeah.

The astrological cycles as well, know, the Saturn return every seven years, the seven year cycle. I interviewed Lulu Minns on the podcast and she's written a book called The Genius Wheel. And she talks about our seven year cycle and how you can kind of, can, you can see it play out when you look back at certain things that have happened in your life, certain milestone moments, and then you can track or chart these bigger.

Claire (49:33.08)
Mm-hmm. Totally.

Sally (49:59.312)
seven-year cycles that we have that we don't necessarily recognise because they're quite spaced out. know, to look back over seven years is quite far. The monthly cycle, the daily cycle, it's sort of within our short-term memory but those longer cycles take a little bit more reflection, I think, to notice. So yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah, so what did I want to ask you?

yeah, I wanted to ask you actually, how do we track ovulation? Because we know how to track menstruation. But how do we track ovulation?

Claire (50:38.85)
First things first, do not trust your app. is the first thing I will say. And this is one thing about cycle tracking apps becoming so popular that I worry about because many of them predict ovulation for you based on what could be called the rhythm method, which is essentially just minusing 14 days from your average cycle length. And unfortunately, that just doesn't work from.

most of the time, actually the, the logic behind that is that the luteal phase, which is the phase from ovulation to menstruation, those final couple of weeks is on average 14 days. Sometimes it could be 13, 15, you know, we don't usually see it less than 11. And if we do, then there's, there's something that needs to be investigated. If you're over 18 days and you're probably pregnant. like we, it is, it is usually in that, you know, 14 day kind of window, but it's definitely not accurate enough.

to then say, okay, blanket, if we just take 14 days off, then that's ovulation. So first thing I would say is just be really mindful because even some of the, what I think are some of the best period tracking apps still have this functionality where they predict when ovulation is going to happen. The best way and the most evidence-based research way to track ovulation, is to learn how to track your biomarkers. And I would suggest, learning how to track your cervical mucus.

and also, basal body temperature. That's the combination of those two methods is called the symptom thermal method. And it's the method that I'm trained in. And it's the one that  has the most amount of evidence behind it. So I would say find a, you know, find a practitioner or a cause or know, a great book that you can use to, to learn. But essentially, what you're going to be learning is how to tell the difference between different kinds of mucus.

And I teach it through sensation. So, I teach it so that you learn. this is the way I was taught is through noticing those like wet and slippery days, and what your patterns are there in comparison to the dry days. And we know that if we have, you know, a peak wet day that we see in combination with a temperature shift on our chart, then we can confirm ovulation. And I won't go into all of the rules here.

Claire (53:04.706)
But really that's what we want to be doing to confirm ovulation. And it might sound complicated and I think sometimes we can get overwhelmed by this, but it's actually quite simple to learn. Once you understand what your cervical mucus patterns are, great. We can just use one or the other. We can just use mucus and we can just use temperature.

So what the mucus tracking is doing is it's telling us when that fertile window is opening because you can actually get pregnant if you have intercourse around about five days before ovulation actually happens. So before ovulation even occurs, that fertile mucus is going to tell you that wetness, that slipperiness, like, okay, cool. The estrogen's pumping, we're preparing the body to ovulate, the fertile window is opening, great.

something to keep in mind for contraception or conception, if you're having penis and vagina sex. And then the rise in temperature essentially closes the fertile window. So the beginning of that slippery mucus is like the opening, like cool, body's fertile, ovulation's coming. And then once we see that rise, that actually tells us that we've ovulated already, probably the day before. It's difficult to pinpoint the exact day, but the reason why that temperature.

Sally (54:09.13)
Claire (54:26.102)
increase happens is because of progesterone. And progesterone is the hormone that's created after ovulation and progestation, progesterone, it's the way to support a potential pregnancy. And that actually increases our body temperature slightly. So that's why we see that rise. And once we see that, that then closes the fertile window.

Sally (54:32.884)
Okay.

Sally (54:47.818)
Okay.

Claire (54:47.98)
You can still get pregnant if you were to have intercourse, you know, that day and a few days after. So we have a kind of a buffer as well to be like, okay, cool for using this to contraception. Like we're going to give it a few days to buffer that, but a consistent rise of three, three high, high temperatures over six low ones. It's called the three over six role. If you're listening, there's one to learn more about that, but that will tell us brilliant ovulation has occurred. We've got this nice consistent rise for a few days now.

And we can confirm that we're in, the luteal phase now. And once you get to the hang of it, you know, it takes a few cycles. and there are some apps that you can use, like read my body. use Kindara that you can input your own data into it. So it's not going to predict it for you, but it can help you to see it nice, you know, on a, on a chart. And like I said, right at the beginning, I think that it gives us.

Sally (55:16.307)
Hmm.

Claire (55:41.13)
learning how to do this gives us an opportunity to trust ourselves and to have some agency in our choices around contraception or conception, or even just simply being able to map those phases of the cycle clearly so that we know like I'm in the follicular phase or now I'm post ovulation, I'm luteal, so I'm coming up to menstruation and having that awareness, it's life changing.

Sally (56:10.065)
Yeah, yeah, really is. Thank you for sharing that. It's super interesting actually how we track ovulation. And I know some women can actually feel when they're ovulating, they can feel a sensation in their ovary. I know when I was coming to the end of perimenopause, my god, my ovaries, when they were really trying to ovulate, you know.

the pain it was like this stabbing pain in my ovary I thought there was something wrong but there was nothing wrong nothing wrong at all and you know I don't get it now but it just goes to show how hard my body was trying to just push out those final eggs bless it my god

Claire (56:55.246)
Yeah, I get, get fingers as well. Definitely. although I would say just to be clear, you definitely can't use that to confirm ovulation because there's also something I hear that, well I felt it. particularly if we're talking fertility purposes, like I really want to make sure that listeners understand, you really need to

Sally (57:04.275)
Okay.

Sally (57:16.84)
Yeah, or contraception purposes.

Claire (57:19.192)
For sure. Like feeling it isn't enough. can definitely be a guide and be like, okay, cool. I think something's going on here, but you want to be tracking that mucus and that temperature to get that clear confirmation either way. Yeah.

Sally (57:25.214)
Yeah.

Sally (57:31.912)
That's good knowledge, thank you, good advice. So finally, what's one small practical step that anyone listening to this that's quite inspired could take away to start building a kinder, more curious relationship with their body, with their cycle?

Claire (57:49.166)
Well, if you listen to the stool menstruating, then the first thing to do is just to get clear on whereabouts you are in your cycle. So have a look back and see when your last period was. And the first day of that first bleed is cycle day one. Then you count forward from there and that's where you will be today. And then I would just take a moment today to check in. And of course, regardless of whether you're menstruating or not, what's alive for you today? How are you feeling?

What's your capacity? What's going on? And document it somewhere. You know, I think there's something that I call cycle amnesia that is real, which is you don't remember. You just don't remember. You know, you might think I will never forget how this pre this PMS feels, or I will never forget like this energy I have today. But the truth is that you will.

because you'll change and you'll move on and it's very difficult to look back actually and to remember. So you need to collect that data, collect it somewhere. I have free principal charts on my website that you can download. Like I said, there's also some great apps, but just put it somewhere. could be your journal, it could be your notes app, whatever, somewhere that you can then come back to it and begin to make, know, do that pattern finding.

Sally (59:06.25)
Yeah, so it's the looking back, the looking back that becomes important. I love what you said about the amnesia. That's so true. It's so true. It's like they say you forget the pain of labor as well, you know, when you've had a baby. I guess there's a reason for that, to kind of keep, well, stop, well, to keep the population going. Yeah, that's a really...

Claire (59:08.75)
Mm-hmm.

Claire (59:16.814)
you

Claire (59:22.862)
No.

Totally. Yeah, totally.

Sally (59:31.366)
A really good nugget of wisdom. I love that one. Yeah, thank you. So Claire, where can people find out about you? Where are you most active on social media? What's your website? All of that.

Claire (59:43.416)
My website is clarebaker.com, C-L-A-I-R-E, Baker.com. And like I said, that's where I have some free charts. There's also a free 20 minute class on there and like a private podcast to get you really inspired on what to chart and how to chart. So all of that's on my website. I've been on and off Instagram, if I'm honest, over the last couple of years, but I am currently on there. So you can find me at underscore clarebaker underscore.

But my favorite place to hang out actually at the moment is Substack. And I write a publication called The Periodical. And that's just where I get to write, which is my favorite creative outlet. And I feel like there's just more room for, yeah, nuance discussion. And that's what I am here for. So yeah, that's probably the most interesting place to find me, beyond my website.

Sally (01:00:15.85)
Yeah.

Sally (01:00:36.298)
Mm, lovely. Brilliant. Thank you so much, Claire. What a lovely conversation. You've opened up a lot for me today, so yeah, I hope our listeners have felt the same.

Claire (01:00:46.53)
Yeah, same to you. Yeah, you've given me lots to think about as well. Thank you for inviting me.

Sally (01:00:50.91)
You're very welcome.