Nutritional Revolution Podcast

Tim Tollefson Talks Ultra Durability, Race Directing, and the Power of Community

• Season 6 • Episode 179

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In episode #179 we spoke with Tim Tollefson, pro ultra runner and RD and founder of mammoth trailfest and TheMammoth 200 about:

  • His path as a pro runner
  • The evolving landscape of trail events
  • The significance of volunteerism, community engagement, and sustainable growth in trail running
  • Practical advice on altitude adaptation, nutrition strategies
  • How we can help grassroots races thrive sustainably.

An appreciator of the imperfect, our next guest Tim Tollefson believes that access to the outdoors is essential for community health and that our next step, no matter the size, should be taken together. He is founder and head crafter of the mammoth trailfest, one of the country’s largest trail running events - and largest 50k - that was created to offer opportunity, access, and education through running. He is also the race director of The Mammoth 200, which will launch its second class of finishers in 2026 after a successful inaugural year in 2025. Tim is also a professional runner for Craft Sportswear, 3x USATF Trail National Champion, 2x Olympic Trails Marathon Qualifier, advocate for mental illness awareness, and an orthopedic physical therapist. His advocacy extends also into being a member of the boards of both Runners for Public Lands and the Professional Trail Runners Association. Tim and his wife Lindsay live in Mammoth Lakes, and are parents to Nacho, a rollicking 12lb doodle.

Please note that this podcast is created strictly for educational purposes and should never be used for medical diagnosis or treatment.

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Hello everybody and welcome back to the Nutritional Revolution podcast. Today we have for you guys an appreciator of the imperfect. Our next guest is Tim Tollefson and believes that access to the outdoors is essential for community health and that our next step, no matter the size, should be taken together. He is the founder and headcrafter of the mammoth trailfest one of the country's largest trail running events and largest 50K that was created to offer opportunity, access and education through running. He is also the race director of the Mammoth 200, which will launch its second class of finishers in 2026 after a successful inaugural year in 2025. Tim is also a professional runner for Craft Sportswear, three time USATF Trail National Champion, two times Olympic Trails Marathon Qualifier, an advocate for mental illness awareness, and an orthopedic physical therapist. His advocacy extends also into being a member of the boards of both runners for public lands and the Professional Trail Runners Association. Tim and his wife, Lindsay, live in Mammoth Lakes and are parents to Nacho, a rollicking 12 pound doodle. This episode was super fun. Tim is a blast, you guys. You will absolutely enjoy it. Hello everybody and welcome back to the Nutritional Revolution podcast. Today we have for you guys, Tim Tollefson Did I say it right? Yes. We were practicing how to say his last name before we hit record. I was kind of hoping you would butcher it, then I was going to try to intentionally butcher your last name. Well, no, how do you think you say my last name? uh, you seem fancy. Chanel? Oh, good job. Yes. People always call me, no, people always call me Kayla Channel and it is Kyla Channell for the listeners. So yeah, good job. I'm super impressed. actually like respect. I appreciate that. That's why I like want to get everybody's last name right and first name. Cause I know how it can be butchered so often. Thank you for joining us today. We're super pumped to have you. As our listeners know, we're going to jump straight into our two truths and a lie and I'm going to be kind of typing those down as you break them down for me. So I feel like it's like throwing me back to summer camp with this prompt. I love it. So I don't know. I was just walking Nacho and trying to think of a few things and it's actually remarkably hard to play this game internally. feel like it's, but let's see. How about once I made more money winning a local 5k than I did finishing third at UTMB. okay. I hate pickles. Hey. and I would rather go for a hike than scroll Instagram. Ooh, I mean, I hope that one's true. Cause me too. Okay. I feel like you totally could have made more money winning a 5k than third at UTMB the way our system is. ah I feel like that's true. So I feel feel like maybe the lie is you don't hate pickles. That's my guess, but don't tell me the answer. um We gotta wait. We gotta wait. The listeners gotta hang tight and we're gonna find out if you made more bank on a 5k than third at UTMB. We all wanna know. take us back a little ways, um Did you grow up in Mammoth? No, but my wife, Lindsay and I, we've been here 15 years now. Yeah. And for our listeners, do you want to give, we have a whole host of like cyclists on here too. So for our cyclists, friends who maybe aren't as familiar with the running, ultra running community, do you want to give us a little bit of background on your sport, your maybe accomplishments and what you're up to these days? Sure. So let's see. Been in mammoth for 15 years. My wife and I actually came here initially trying to chase road marathons. And so like we were post collegiate track and cross country athletes and wanted to try our feet in the marathon world. And we heard high altitude training was all the rage, you know, uh, back in the, the late aughts. so we finagled a way to move up here into mountain paradise. And it was kind of at the time where Team USA and the Mammoth Track Club were in their heyday. So think Ryan and Sarah Hall and Meb and Dina and a bunch of other Olympians. And there were a lot of triathletes and road cyclists up here also at the time. It was kind of before maybe Boulder and Bend and a few other hubs and Flagstaff really took off. uh And so my, I guess my background in general for running is I was the classic High school athlete that did a lot of sports thought I was going to turn pro as a soccer player. Turns out I wasn't as skilled as my mind thought I was. And I was far better at the endurance side of running laps around the field and playing midfield. And so my coach convinced me finally my senior year to give up soccer and go full like headfirst into, into running. And I squeaked my way on to a division two cross country team at Chico state. And so I was not recruited, but thankfully it was also a time where there was more availability for high school kids, I think, to do that. so over five years, I slowly got better, missed out on all-American status five times by just like one spot. so like, Lindsay was similar. So when we graduated, we both felt unsatisfied and kind of like, we had an ax to grind. so... Then we started going into the road world, ended up qualifying for the Olympic trials twice in the marathon, uh 2:18:26 PR. This was pre super shoes.

So I'd like to think I'm at least like a 1:

59 guy now, but it's yeah. It was back when we used to basically wear three to four ounce shoes and it was nearly running barefoot. ah And then after a couple of years of doing that, I kind of dove into the trail world and Over last decade, that's where I've spent my, my career and had the ability to travel the world, compete kind of on the, some of the biggest stages. Uh, I did finish it third at UTMB twice. I got second at CCC. Uh, I've won three national titles, a couple other wins internationally. Um, and yeah, I kind of, uh, kind of sampled it all. And now I'm, I like to call it my sunset years. I'm hanging on. I still have the mind of a young. 20 something pro athlete, but my body is making me rethink and play the game a little differently. And sometimes that's at odds with my nature where I just want to play the game how I always played it. But I still have that competitive fire to trying to put the kids in their place. I, you know, trying to squeak out a couple more seasons of professional running. Amazing, If I can ask, what do you notice with your body? Are there injuries coming up or is it like recovery is not as fast as it once was? It would, it's, it's the recovery, you know, and, and I've always heard that from people. Um, like I would say intensity, still can pop good workouts. can still put in some big long runs, but it's the bouncing back where even up until I'd say just maybe two or three years ago, I felt like I could handle anything and I wouldn't break, but now I'm having to be much more cognizant of it because if I don't give myself maybe an extra day or two of rest, or if I don't listen to the little signs, instead of bending and maybe kind of slowing me down, like I actually break, you know, proverbially. And so it's, it's been trying to reframe what it takes to stay in the game. Mm-hmm. Have you found any like nutritional or tools like the boots or anything like that that you feel like helps speed up that recovery or help a little bit in any way? man, I want to say yes, because like that's what pros should be doing, right? But I feel like even though I've spent a career in the pro ranks, I've always resonated more with just like the nine to fiver, because a lot of actually my pro career, I was working full-time and training. And so maybe I use that as an excuse, but I didn't always do the little one percenters, you know? And then as I freed my time up and left my job and started training full-time, think it was honestly kind of hard for me to change that mindset of starting to do more. um But I guess I am, I try to make more time for drills, which Lindsay, she will laugh when I say this because she's very diligent and she's always like harping on me to do them more. it's, I think it's, know, behaviors are hard to change and it, I know the importance, but uh I think one of my greatest talents that I've recognized is just general durability. And that's what's allowed me to have a 30 year career in basically running where for a long time, I always like thought like, like I almost was embarrassed to be so durable because you know, maybe we'll get into it, but like I was of the generation where it's like thin was fast and like drawing was not considered fast. And so like, but really my strength has allowed me to stick around this long and actually perform. And so I've, I've kind of finally reframed and kind of accepted that Yeah, that is such a strength or such a gift or a talent is actual durability and strength and be able to handle the load and not break down. Yes, yeah, yeah, 100%. I mean, that is like a big thing we try and prevent with athletes, right? It's like we want faster return to play so you can continue training and getting more adaptations. And but pieces of that mean like proper recovery too, right? So yeah, that is 30 years. That is impressive. Just for personal question out of curiosity, have you ever dealt with IT band stuff? And how do you fix it? So IT ban, like ITBS or like plantar fascial issues, I feel like are the two most nagging issues that, I guess if I had enemies, I would wish those things on them because they suck. Often I think, if we break it down, it's a repetitive stress injury. And so it's something that you need to address why you're having excess load in that region. And often, I find that it's due to some mechanical issue of maybe a little too much, not to get in the weeds, but like internal rotation or adduction of your femur. And that can be caused by a weakness or a motor control issue in the hip abductors and external rotators. like often kind of strengthening up the chain around the hip and pelvis can help control the knee a little bit better. And so that can be one of the common causes. You can have the ground up issue of, okay, maybe your foot is kind of like, you know, causing a problem, I often will see wherever your pain point or let's call it, you know, presentation of an injury is it is sure possible that there's something happening there, but more often than not is above or below that. That's actually the root cause. So it's kind of, you have to tease out what might be causing the excessive load and strain or stress to that region. Yeah. And for our listeners, you in your nine to five, you were a physical therapist, right? Yeah. finished my CEUs, and so I'm still licensed. I'm just not currently practicing. Yeah. I mean, you're the perfect person. I feel like to ask these questions. You have the personal experience and the like brain and knowledge skills to like put the pieces together. That is certainly helpful. Yeah. IT man stuff is rough, man. It is so rough. uh Okay. Well, you have gone from world class athlete to obviously experiencing loads and loads of races yourself as a competitor. And now you are Director of the mammoth trailfest. You founded and started that, correct? Tell us about it. Well, it's, I mean, I think it's the coolest thing ever, uh but I might be a little biased. So mammoth trailfest is a multi-day kind of trail running festival or gathering that we put on every end of September here in Mammoth Lakes. And it really was born out of a desire to kind of fill a void that we had here locally. You know, as I mentioned, I, I've spent the last 12 years traveling the globe, competing in some of the biggest races, some really small grassroots races, been all over the country and Every time I would return back to Mammoth, it just struck me that we didn't have something like that here. Like I would argue it's some of the best terrain and mountains in the United States, possibly the world, depending on who you ask. And it just was shocking that we didn't have anything. And the more I would talk to locals about it, they would kind of confirm like, yeah, we should have some sort of event. know, we didn't really have any trail races like specifically in Mammoth. And so I had this idea and a lot of it started from my first trip to Europe where I raced in the Alps in 2015. so that idea just kind of like germinated and started to bud and build. But honestly, I was just really nervous because I had never been in the event space. I'd never put on an event. I almost liken it to, just because someone gets an Oscar, it doesn't mean they could actually produce a film or direct a film. And so just because I'm a pro runner, it doesn't mean I could actually put on an event. So I was really scared. I think just that fear of failure kept me on the sideline for a long time. And then I finally kind of got the courage to maybe start something because I started to see, you know, there was a really big demand and then the pandemic hit and it was like, So like delayed us another year and a half or two years, but yeah, it kind of came out of a dream for wanting to offer people opportunity to come and either push themselves to the limit or just like kind of be introduced to trail. so. You know, I want it to be a welcoming space that people could come learn, succeed, fail, whatever it is, and hopefully just fall in love with the trail community. And I felt like there was no better place than mammoth. And it, so that's kind of, kind of where it's been going in over the last five years. It's been incredible to see the reception of people that, know, have kind of helped us build it to what it is now, which is, you know, four days of activations and. clinics and gatherings and three days of racing and we're the largest 50K in America and we have nearly 3000 people that come to town to actually pin on a bib, which is just wild. Yeah, that's amazing. So how long did it take you with the to go from like this vision in your brain to actually hosting the first race? So I would say 2015, 2016, I thought, man, we need to have that kind of thing here. Our first event didn't happen until 2022. So it was quite a while. I got part of it also was I started really taking steps towards it in 2019. But for anyone listening that is either an organizer or it's actually great information for anyone like. getting permits is a huge challenge in the United States to put on an event. And it took me several years to finally secure our permits needed. And some of that was just going back and forth and building relationships with the land managers. And then the other part was I was just like a stickler for every little minute detail of like, okay, which way are they gonna run up this trail? What time of day will it be? Where will the sun be setting? And so it was kind of thinking through the entire runner's journey to try to maximize the experience. that just led to kind of a slow process of finally being able to unlock what we were hoping to. That's really cool though, that thought process, thinking about like, they're going to be cresting this hill when the sun is coming up or something. That sounds actually really rad to be able to have that thought in your mind when you're planning a course. That's really cool. I have no nothing about the whole permitting process, but when you do something like that, you obviously have to have your route already planned in your mind. And then is there so many athletes that they allow to... Like is that permit only for so many athletes from that trail on a given day or how does that work? That's right. So each area will be different and it will depend on the type of land you're running across. And in the United States, we have a lot of different designations from, you know, the Bureau of Land Management, the US Forest Service, private lands. You know, you have regional, county, municipalities. And so depending on where your course is going, you may have to get permits from all or, you know, none of those. And so a lot of it, I would say really is just it comes down to relationship building. Like you really need to build a rapport with those land managers or agencies because ultimately they are the gatekeepers that will allow you onto the land itself. But for most, the Forest Service, which that's some of the greatest trails we have in the country is on US Forest Service land. They do have basically calculations on how many footfalls the resource can handle throughout a given year or time period. And so they help dictate how many runners could use an area based on not only your special event, but other recreators. Because, you and I think this is the beauty of our system is as a special event operator, I don't have a priority over you to come and use the same trails. So we have to be mindful and good stewards and partners to all recreators. You know, even if I'm like, I want the right way, I think I should have it, you know, but that's not how it goes. And I think it's actually better that way. But so the land managers are actively thinking about how many people can travel across this this land without damaging it so that people can continue to not only enjoy it, but the land, the ecology, the wildlife, everything will be negatively impacted. So there's a lot of little things that go into it. It's not just as simple as, you want to have a race? Here's 100 people or here's 1000 people. Wow, yeah, goodness. And with the years of the mammoth trailfest, have you had to request to try and get more and more permit space, I guess, or to allow more racers? Or what does that look like? Yep. so Lindsay and I, as we set out to do this, we were kind of at odds just conceptually and just personally where, you know, she deals with like climate anxiety. And so the idea of having a large scale event like freaked her out. like, and so we really tried to think about, okay, if we want to have something, cause we want to welcome a lot of people, but we want to hopefully do it mindfully and thoughtfully grow. Part of that was the actual numbers. And so we've talked with our land managers that We want to have a five to 10 year approach each year. If we can thoughtfully show that we are doing it the right way and you're not noticing degradation damage or, you know, local impact negatively, then let's try to progressively get larger. And so we've done that each year, just kind of stepping upwards. Um, it's not an indefinite growth. You know, I think we're right about where we want to be, but We also invite them to participate. we, we have several forest members that actually run our races. have people out auditing because we want that feedback because we know that we can't control everything, but we want to learn and hopefully do better. And so that kind of goes back to, yeah, we think about long-term, if this is sustainable, and then also the feedback from them to make sure that we are blind sides, blind, you know, blind spots are kind of being, um, uncovered in, you know, I don't know, uh, like we're educated in that realm. Yeah, that's great. I remember with one of, I think it was one of the gravel races. Are you familiar with Rebecca Rusch you know? Yeah. Yeah. It might be something like that. I actually forget. But I think with her private Idaho thing that she does, there was something where like for however many like gel packets people picked up off the trail after the fact, they like won something. So there's this huge incentive to like leave no trash. you which I think was great. You're not supposed to be littering anyways, but if someone is coming across a trail and they pick up wrappers, they apparently win a prize. So I thought that was really cool. um Yeah. Okay. So for the listeners who don't know, you mentioned three days of racing. You mentioned 50K. What are the other distances that are options there? We have a 50K, a 26K, a 10K and a 5K, but the 5K goes straight up the mountain. Oh, and the most important race, we have a 1K kids race. Yeah. awesome. What is the dragon ascent? Is that the 5k uphill? I saw that on. Okay. This sounds brutal. If my IT defense works. nice. Yeah, my mom does it every year. Oh, I love that. That's great. um So out of curiosity, like me being sports nutrition, I'm curious of the distances. Is there a distance where you see more GI issues occur? likely the 50K just because it's the amount of time out there and the need to continually eat and drink. Although from, I would say the competitive standpoint, you definitely can see it in the 26K just because it's such a high octane, adrenaline filled, two to three hours that you still can get yourself into some trouble if you're not careful. Yeah, goodness. And so on that note, like how do you think about aid station layout and what is at those aid stations for the runners? So part of, as I kind of referenced a little bit is we wanted to build trailfest to almost break down the stigma of ultra running is like rah rah rah, hyper competitive, you know, it's not for me. And, you know, so we wanted ample aid stations. We have six aid stations for our 50K, you know, so you're never going more than basically five miles before you hit something. Now, granted on a trail, five miles could take someone three hours, but you do know that literally around the corner, you will have some sustenance and support. so we try to have that stuff. And what's fascinating on the actual breakdown, in Trail and Ultra, you have, I'd say, the buffet of sweet and salty snacks that you would think of. If you're following any of these unsolicited meme accounts on Instagram, like... The jokes that are out there are real, like there's just going to be bowls of like M &Ms and Oreos or, you know, pretzels and boiled potatoes, whatever it may be. But I'd say in the last couple of years, what's been fascinating is we've seen the rise of more and more liquid calories for the masses where, know, and it's something our nutritional partner, GU Energy, that I've been working with with the races all five years, um, and as an athlete for almost 15 years. you know, we've had this change the way we structure because historically it'd be like people want gels and shoes and maybe, you know, stroop waffles. But we're now seeing the trickle down effect from the elites into the masses and the back of the pack where everyone talks about, I drink my calories. And, know, I think it's finally catching up where last year we almost had a panic, like shift things around the course. Cause everyone was coming in only wanted liquid calories. They didn't want food. And we're like, wait, no, no, like you're supposed to eat things, right? But I think we're starting to see that just the general population that consumes podcasts and editorials and listens to the recaps, they're hearing that these top tier women and men are actually just drinking, you know, 70 to 120 grams of carb per hour or whatever it may be. And, you know, whether or not they're ready for that kind of stuff, they're just like taking it and trying it themselves. Mm-hmm. Wow. So does GU have a like a high carb drink mix that would be that you'd have to put at an aid station or something? Yeah. So we have what's called rock tain. It's a, uh, high carb drink mix, and they've been actually doing it a long time. use that at my first UTMB 10 years ago, uh, or 11 years ago, but, it's actually what Magda, the current president of GU one Western States using. Uh, so it's, I think it's 250 calories per like 20 ounces of water. Yeah. Okay. And of any of the aid station food that is solid, do you notice like a favorite among the participants? Uh, at trailfest our summit pancakes, we, we, have a wonderful volunteer, Elka, who flips blueberry pancakes. And that one is money. It's, uh, that would, that would be something that we would never, ever go away from, but it's unfortunately not at every aid station, but I'd say that's the number one. awesome. Okay, so I also noticed who you incorporated and have been doing USADA incorporation with your mammoth trailfest. Is that something that's been part of mammoth trailfest since year one or is that something you had to bring on kind of slowly into it? So we started working with USADA our second year. So the first year we did not. And this was something that I pushed for in our, 2023, we became part of the Golden Trail World Series, which is a global network of races that bring some of the best athletes to onsite. And I just felt, you know, at that moment it was paramount that we actually had actual drug testing and a little inside baseball. Back in the day, there was the system called Quartz that was kind of shredding around as an anti-doping program, but it was not. It was a health monitoring system, but a lot of events and races, especially in Europe, were using this as sort of a guise to actual anti-doping. And having been a recipient of that as an athlete, I found it incredibly stressful. And also, I started recognizing this incredible liability that it carried because it wasn't actually a sanctioned. you know, anti-doping effort. And so when we realized we were going to be welcoming some of the world's best, said, I reached out to Asada and said, we need to have you guys on site. And so that started a multi-year relationship with that. Nice. Wow. Yeah, that I feel like I can't even imagine putting on a race. Like it just sounds like all the different like steps you have to go through in the permits and it sounds like a lot of moving puzzle pieces that you have to to do to pull all this together. So. We like to say we're glorified janitors. know, there's a lot of it is not sexy. There's a thousand moving pieces and a lot of unglamorous moments, but if you like problem solving and tinkering and doing something different every day, it's pretty fun. Yeah. Well, I it certainly keeps you busy. I can just imagine like the to do list and the like step by steps you have to do for stuff like it with the USADA just for our listeners who don't know. Do you want to do you want to break it down for our listeners if they're like, who's USADA? Are you inviting USADA? Is this a person? Usada is a very nice lady. Um, so it's the United States anti-doping agency. And so they were most famous for the Lance Armstrong case and the BALCO scandal and helping to basically litigate those and, and, know, bring some justice to athletes, but they're basically a governing body that, you know, works with the IOC. So any international Olympic committee, uh, sports to, to enforce. to test and well, I test and force, also just educate athletes. So it's, it's an anti-doping program. Um, and you know, it's, it's something that I think is especially needed in our sport as we are starting to see a higher professionalization in trail and ultra. know, maybe we're, you know, five, 10, 15 years behind cycling, but you know, we, we often talk about the analog to, to cycling and, you know, taking learnings from that, where we want to create. Or make sure that athletes can compete with full faith that they can compete and win clean and never let that kind of like the narratives creep in where you get to culture where maybe, you you start seeing more incentives to cheat the system or operating gray areas. And so that's where having someone like usada I think is really important because they, are not only the, they are able to test and kind of like litigate things, but they also, a lot of people don't know this. You know, they would rather spend their time educating and they do a lot of education because you know, there's a lot of ignorance as an athlete. You know, I, felt this as a college athlete, as a fresh pro, even as a seasoned pro, that there's a lot of unknown and in the doping world or the anti-doping world, there's a strict liability on us as athletes where we are a hundred percent responsible for what is in our body. So intention does not matter. Like if I test positive, the intention. doesn't remove the fact that I tested positive. Now that could change maybe the sanction or what kind of like, what's kind of, I guess, cast or what I eventually may serve based on intention and the ability to prove things. But I have to be responsible for everything I ingest. And so I think that's where USADA and hopefully most organizers or stakeholders start to realize the importance of just education. You know, like we need to educate young and seasoned athletes. of what's out there, what the dangers are, what resources they have to like learn and hopefully be a stakeholder in this because ultimately, as I said, like we want to have full faith as athletes that I can compete and win clean and not be tempted, you know, by the siren song of something else. Totally, yes. And so with the, you started testing, are you doing that in like randomly in just the top winners that are potentially would get prize money or like should the recreational athlete be like, my gosh, I'm taking estrogen or something and freak out that they are gonna get tested. It's great question. So what we've done is we will test our podium athletes. So the top three women and men, and then in the past we did random two additionals on each side in the top 10. So it really was designated for the people that would be competing for prize money points or potentially leveraging sponsorships. uh Now our policy is that anyone at a trailfest event could be subject to testing, but the reality is that would not happen because what we haven't talked about is drug testing is very expensive. And so like, you know, it's, it's a burden on me as a local organizing committee to fund this cause no one else is paying for it. And, know, there's a running joke that cyclists probably would know is like, you have to be an idiot to get caught on race day, but it's a step towards signaling that we're going to take this seriously. And we want to work towards an eventual out of competition, like drug testing, um, framework that would. you know, catch more people that may be potentially like skirting the system. But so yeah, that's kind of how we break down who gets tested. I think that's super helpful for the listeners and also for the listeners. I think did you did you put on like a webinar education about the USADA testing last summer? OK, awesome. You can do that again this year. So um hopefully, or I would say yes, and part of this goes into just kind of pulling back the curtain. Anytime we work with USADA, we will always put on that free webinar and USADA helps put it on. Part of it though is the financial portion that I talked about. Depending on how competitive our fields are or what kind of prize money we're putting out, that can kind of dictate if we will drug test because... We also have to survive as a business and it doesn't always make sense to pay all this money. If it's, if it doesn't feel like it's actually going to be making a dent, if we don't have the competition that like basically justifies it. So, but something that, you know, I did actually this summer, uh, or actually, no, not in the summer, uh, this fall, I think it was in December. worked with UTMB and we gave a webinar with an international testing agency, um, that was free to all athletes. And so it was regardless of going to a specific event, but it was just an educational piece. So if someone out there wanted to learn, you could access this. And then I think that's something that I hope we get more and more of. So regardless, if you're actually showing up to a specific event, we just want more resources out there. Cause I think the education is what ultimately either leads to someone falsely testing positive or like, well, I should say it. I think it will make all athletes sleep better if they just are informed on what to know about the whole system. Cause as I said, it is scary when you don't know and I've been there. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And for the listeners too, if they're looking for safe products, safe supplements, they're looking for things with informed sport, NSF certified for sport, informed choice, any other, do you recommend any other? I think there's like two others, but I don't see them often in the United States. Yeah, those three are great. I've heard of true shield, I think it's called. And then, and so what you're referencing is fantastic. It's like, look at your supplements, your like other, uh, you know, potential things that you might be taking or, uh, minerals and vitamins. But I think one thing I always educate people also, cause it is re or bookmarking is called global DRO.com. Okay. is where, you know, medications should be checked because, know, as endurance athletes, you asked about IT band syndrome, like, you know, I might start taking a bunch of Advil or Tylenol or my friend had something and they gave it to me and said, it's an anti-inflammatory. Like I recommend before you put anything in your body, you should check. And so this is where you check medications, you know, it's over the counter medications don't mean they're safe for sports. And so it's a great resource where you can put in your sport, your country, where you purchase the, the, the medication and then see if it's allowed for in or out of competition. And so it's a very nice way to do it. It's another piece that I just think would be helpful. And then also, you know, I, it's something I've had to do because I was taking, uh, SSRIs or an antidepressant and like, was afraid, like, you know, I'm taking medication and like, you can check any medication. Cause even if your doctor gives you something that you need medically doesn't mean that. it's medically okay for sport. You may need to clear that with a physician or the governing body of your individual sport. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a great point you make. because a lot of, again, like women going through perimenopause on HRT and stuff like that too. mean, those technically. So yeah, I think that I think that's If you've ever tried to buy creatine or electrolytes online and wondered, is this actually legit? We got a quick fix. We built a Fullscript dispensary for Nutritional Revolution listeners so you can shop trusted professional grade supplements that ship direct from the manufacturer, no random third party sellers, no sketchy storage. You'll find brands we use with our athletes all the time like Thorne Klean Athlete, Nordic Naturals, Pure Encapsulations, Designs for Health, Designs for Sport, et cetera, and a ton of NSF certified for sport options. Everyone gets 20 % off always, and during promos you can get up to as much as 35 % off, and it's free to create an account. If you set up AutoShip, you'll get an additional 5 % off. Just open up the show notes and tap the full script link to get started. great. um OK, so also for the listeners, when when is the race races? Uh, well this year we have mammoth trailfest, September 24th through the 27th. Um, and then we did add it kind of a, a little larger race the week after October 2nd, which is called The Mammoth and it's 214 miles. So we kind of went from like 31 miles to 200 plus. Yeah. goodness, how many participants can sign up for that? Uh, we're sold out. have 250 people, uh, and we have a wait list right now, but it's, yeah, there are a lot of kind of, kind of, uh, I don't know, like maybe, uh, slightly unhinged individuals that think it's fun to run 214 miles, but, yeah, so that one, that one's over five days, but last year our winner, uh, he's a professional and he ran 45 hours and the first woman was 47 hours. but the cutoff was 110 hours. Wow. Jeez. Manuela, God, Vilaseca she didn't run it, did she? She did not, but she's an ex-teammate of mine and I hope that we get her to come out soon, because she won the Triple Crown, uh which I believe you just had her recently on your podcast, right? Uh-huh. She is incredible. And also just a genuinely amazing person, like so fun to hang out with. Yeah. was so like, I love talking to her on the pod. She was so sweet. And she's she's got a lot of good nuggets. I like I remember talking to her like one of biggest takeaways I thought was really cool. And I think a lot of our listeners thought was really helpful was She would chew gum, like minty gum, you know, throughout to like help break up the taste and get the sugar like sensation off your teeth of fueling for that long. I that was a really helpful tip too. So yeah, she's like, and just, she just like travels all the way over here just for the race and then works like all day back home. like, I don't know how she does it. It's like really incredible, really incredible. Yeah, she's, you know, you gotta get her out there. See, see what she. of damage she does to those trails you're gonna need an extra permit or something for her out there. It's, and the, had, mean, she's that, I love that nugget as well. And you'll see other like Courtney Dauwalter will brush her teeth in the middle of an ultra. One, it is refreshing, but like, so I think there is that almost reset button, but my wife is a hygienist and she's like, what you guys are doing is just killing your, like your teeth. And it's like, yeah, we are just bathing them in simple sugars for five, 10, four. for like, I mean, well, like 120 hours or whatever it was, 140 hours. no, even more, but it's insane. Yeah, it is insane. My dentist is never happy when I go in there. He's like, have you heard what all these cyclists are eating? All these gummies and stuff. I'm like, I've heard about it. It's not stoked on it. OK, so I'd love to hear from you uh with your experience thus far with Mammoth mammoth trailfest. Have you I'm sure you've had maybe many, but is there a meaningful story uh with a participant that you've witnessed at the festival that maybe changed how you run it or will run it um over the years. That is a fantastic question. hmm. um You know, I would say, it's so hard because there are like, what I love about being on this side is selfishly, I get to watch, you know, whether it's a couple hundred or a couple thousand people cross their own, both literal and proverbial finish line at our event. And you see it on their face when they complete it, like what it meant to them. Um, and so it's really hard to distill and pick one, but What's coming to mind right now is there was this gentleman last year that he had been running races his entire life. He was in his, I want to say he was right around 80 years old or so. And he finishes the race. He takes off his shoes. He sets them down next to the finish line and he just walked away. And I was like, what, what? And like I pulled over his daughter and she said, like later, like, He just had the best experience of his life and he never wants to run another race. He's been doing this his entire life and he's just done. He just like walked away. And I was like, I was like tearing up thinking like that's incredible. Like it's, uh, it was really cool. And we just left his shoes there next to the start finish line, you know, for the remainder of the actually for a week, because the following week we had our 200, but you know, I would walk back and forth and just see a shoe sitting there and just thought, wow. That's really cool. Cause it just meant something to him. And you don't know exactly what it could have been the volunteers he interacted with. It could have been just, he got up and over the summit when he was chasing a cutoff and, something struck him where he's like, okay, I'm done. And I just thought it was really beautiful. that is really beautiful. I love hearing stuff like that. um Okay, I'm going to jump to some quick hitters and then we of course have to figure out your two truths and a lie. um So what is one course design decision you're proud of? So I kind of mentioned a little bit earlier how it took me a few years to like come up with the design because I love the aesthetic of a good course. And even when you open the map, I want to see a loop. I don't want to see these weird out and backs or, you know, I joke with some race director friends like, were you like drunk in a washing machine when you like plan this out? Cause I can't make sense of it. Like I want it to conceptually make sense. Um, and so I don't know, maybe it would just be the fact that, you know, even though it took longer, we came up with a route that it maximized the aesthetic and the view for the runner, even if it meant there was less vert or whatever it might be. Cause it was more about, I want the experience to be elevated versus just checking a box of, know, it's exactly 31.1 miles or whatever, you know, it says on paper. Yeah, amazing. I love that. I think that's wonderful because a lot of the reason why I feel like people are out there is, I mean, it's beautiful. It's lovely to be outside and to see all these cool things. And I mean, the vert is painful and fun too for other reasons, but we're out there to be outside. OK, what are three mistakes you've seen first timers make when racing at altitude? Amazing. So they get to altitude and they're excited and they have beers with their friends, like in the condo the first night. You know, I would say like in general, you come to altitude, the recommendations are hydrate, not with alcohol. Don't do something stressful for the first couple of days where plenty of sunscreen. And so we see people that are just pumped that they're like on this, like they finally made it. Not the runners necessarily, but like sometimes if depending on what their motivation is. But I would say not in general, we could tie this into something more practical, not drinking enough water, like under hydrating. When you're at altitude, you get dehydrated, dehydrated faster. And so like, if you're already at a deficit and then you have altitude, your heart's going to be working harder. It's going to set you this cascade, cascade of events that's going to impair your, your event. I'd say under hydrating, getting out too fast or too hard. Um, you know, like I said, your heart, heart works harder at altitude. And so if, and you may not notice that on flats or downhills, but the moment you have even like a 1 % incline, your heart rate is going to jack up. And so I think people get a little too aggressive. Um, was that too? I don't know. And I don't know. Like, so then probably, uh, being too hard on themselves, like expecting to run what they did at sea level. So I think just having a little empathy and compassion for yourself that now you're at eight, nine, 10, 11,000 feet. it's not going to feel like running along the beach. Yeah, yeah, that's a great one. Okay, my next one is the eight station menu item you'd never cut, but I think you might have mentioned it might be those pancakes. So for mammoth trailfest specifically, it'd be pancakes. We didn't talk about the Mammoth 200 and that one I would say, oh man, we've had so many good foods out there. We had a pho bar at one of them. We had breakfast burritos being made, like fresh pizza. So that one's harder burgers. that's honestly like people hear, oh, you're running 200 miles, but some people take it as like, no, I'm just getting a supported through hike with picnics. Yes, that's great. Yeah. Awesome. I love that. um Okay. And then last one change you want the entire sport to adopt in the next 12 months. That's it. See, I should have read my pre-homework. ah Cause I feel like this is like a chance to like change the world, but I don't know. would say probably. Like, let's focus more on like how we can be good partners to our local communities. And that ties back to what I said at the top, like even our land managers, permitted administrators, you know, I feel like it's so important to cultivate the volunteerism aspect of our sport. You know, if you look at the history of trail and ultra, it like, that's a pillar of what made it so special. And I'm not afraid, but I think it's gonna... we have to actively cultivate that volunteerism spirit and like the generosity of like, hey, what can I also provide and not just take, even though you're paying good money. So I'm not saying like that that's not warranted, but I just think for our sport to gen like to survive into the next generation or generations with some of those same ethos is going to take, you know, cultivating the spirit of volunteerism and having been on that side, you also recognize like how much more you appreciate. your experiences when you know what it's like to be on the other side, whether it's course marking, our amazing Amanda or someone leading, you know, the aid stations. I think there's, just look at an event, you look at the trails, everything differently if you've kind of been on that volunteer side. And so I would just say all of us should try to figure out a way that we could, you know, be part of that a bit more. And then I think it's also very topical. you know, support the local independent races that you want to see stick around for the next even year or two. Like maybe it's similar to cycling or triathlon. Our sport is currently experiencing like this kind of like bundling and corporate consolidation and like, which is exciting for the professionalization of the sport. But some of the concerns and fears are, are there really cool grassroots smaller races going to kind of die on the vine because people want the big festival feels like what I'm doing. And you my answer is no, if we still support the races that we love, you know, but, know, it's just important that you do, you know, vote with your feet and go to the races that you want to see stick around. Yeah, yeah, that is great. Do you with people who volunteer, do they get like I've seen with some of the gravel races, if people volunteer, they get like uh put into like a lottery for next year or something like that. Do you guys do stuff like that? Absolutely. So I would say even better, like we just give them credits. So like if you come every hour you work with us, we give you race credits so you can just turn around and sign up and we give all of our volunteers early access because all of our events sell out. And so they can sign up stress free with their credits and guarantee their spot. I love that. I love that. That's great. OK, I'm going to jump back to actually, we had one listener question here, to get to here, too. uh OK, altitude adaptation takes a while. Should runners get in just before mammoth trailfest and send it? I love it. So great question. If we look at the research on this, it's kind of like, if you can't get to altitude maybe seven to 10 days before, sometimes it's kind of better just to be like the day before or two days before. There's kind of this weird window, but I think it also kind of depends on what you're trying to get out of it. Like if it's just like... physiologic adaptations or more psychological central governor adaptations. I feel like there are different things you could kind of like strategize on, but in general, um if you're here, I'd say at least a day or two before it's going to be enough. If you then mix it with don't over exert yourself, drink plenty of fluids, stay out of the sun until you know, don't do hard strides getting ready for the race. Like know that the hay's in the barn. ah But there's also a lot of benefit if you can do like little altitude stimulus, like camps where like, if you could come and just, and I think this might be a little more psychological, but if you could come for one or two days and get like a nice little bulk of training a month or two months out, you're not going to keep those physiologic benefits. But I do think you're going to, like I said, psychologically recognize, Oh, I kind of know what it's going to feel like when my heart rate spikes early. And so like, you just kind of prime your brain a little bit. think that's super helpful. Okay, I want to jump to your two truths and a lie. You said you once made more money winning a local 5k than when you finished third at UTMB. You hate pickles and that you'd rather hike than scroll Instagram. I thought the lie was hating pickles. Which one was it? I'm lazy. I love sitting down and just like. No, you're a doom scroller? Maybe you're not doom scrolling, maybe it's kittens and puppies and trails. Um, so you thought the lie was pickles, huh? Um, it's the Instagram, like I sure I love hiking, but I'm also really lazy. So I would rather just like, like lay down and do nothing is actually why we've always had small dogs. Cause we didn't want a dog that could run too far. like we've had a pug, we've had a Frenchie now we have a Labradoodle and I mean, not unfortunately, but He does run like 14 miles, which is amazing, but running was training. So I wanted just to like be a sloth otherwise. know, I mean, and admittedly, don't think lazy is the right word. I think it's that I'm so tired from all of the training and the work and the mental demands of what I do that the thought of just like Netflix and chill actually like was more appealing than going for another hike. Cause I'd already been out there for a while. So maybe it's a little misleading, but like, yeah. Like I often do find myself kind of like if I have free time, I'm not doing more exercise. Yeah, I get that. I understand that now. And you do in fact hate pickles. I do hate pickles. They're disgusting. um I mean, there's just, I don't know, like the, smell, the taste, the everything. Um, so not much. No, it's funny. I was, I was in Japan with some friends on a running tour and I had a hard time with like 12 days of pickled everything and fish for breakfast. Like the food was amazing, but I was like, I want some waffles. I want, you know, cereal. No pickles, pickle juice on course or anything like that for cramps. uh we served that at our aid stations, but I don't take it. Yeah. then you did in fact make more money doing a local 5k. I did. had a, it's now no longer in existence, but it was called the Zach a mac and it was a hill climb. was really cool. was runners versus skiers versus fat bikes. And it was held in the winter on a groomed trail to the summit. And I did it. Uh, yeah, it was, it was pretty awesome. And it also speaks to just, you know, our sport is evolving where when I was performing well at UTMB, they didn't pay prize money. Right. Yeah. are seeing prize money, which is really great. And like we've had to advocate for that kind of stuff. again, it shows the progress and the health of the sport, but you know, it was only, you know, seven, eight years ago that there was no prize money there. uh Yeah, goodness. Yeah, times are changing. Times are changing and improving a little bit, a little bit at a time. Okay, I want to be mindful of your time, Tim. Where can people find you and follow you? ah You know, wait, can you say my last name again? Tollefusen. That was so close. Tollef, Tollefison. Cut this out. Hold on. Tollefison. Tollef... Amanda cut this out. No, we're keeping this in Amanda. This has to stay. Um, they can find me at Tim Topolson, uh, at Tim Topolson on Instagram. And then, um, I would say, uh, honestly, like, yeah, don't follow me, but check out this nonprofit that I work with Runners for Public Lands And you know, we have really cool resources that are free to people. And if you want to be a supporting member, we'd love it, but it's a, it's a great. Great organization where we're just trying to increase access and equity for runners across the country and give more resources to race directors and runners and land managers. So yeah, check me out there. I'm a board member of them. And then is it like mammoth trail fest.com? yeah, mammothtrailfest.com or themammoth200.com. All right, well, we will link that in our show notes for our listeners. You guys can check it all out. Sign up maybe for next year. Get on some wait list. And thank you so much for joining us, Tim. This has been awesome. Thanks for having me.

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Kyla Channell, MS

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