Nutritional Revolution Podcast

30 Days Across Canada: A Study on Endurance and Energy Expenditure

• Season 6 • Episode 187

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In episode #187 we had a FIRST for the NR podcast: three guests, including one researcher and the two subjects of her study. Dr. Sarah Purcell dives into her study looking at two endurance cyclists - Leanna Carriere and Dr. Timm Döbert - and their adventure crossing Canada on their bikes. Join us for a fascinating exploration into the physical and ecological worlds, featuring unique insights from athletes, scientists, and explorers. This episode reveals the incredible energy demands of long-distance cycling on a plant-based diet, the science of bird migration, and the journey behind an epic cross-Canada ride.

KEY TOPICS

  • The science of energy expenditure in humans and animals, and how it intersects with endurance training and diet.
  • The design and experiences of a 30-day, 4,300 km cycle across Canada, focusing on plant-based nutrition and physiological data collection.
  • Practical tips for ultra-endurance athletes on nutrition, sleep, mental resilience, as well as maintaining body composition during sustained endurance efforts.

Please note that this podcast is created strictly for educational purposes and should never be used for medical diagnosis or treatment.

ABOUT OUR GUESTS:

  • Dr. Sarah Purcell is an Assistant Professor and Tier 2 Canada Research Chair at the University of British Columbia. Her research lab focuses on leveraging energy balance concepts to inform evidence-based nutrition strategies. Specifically, her lab’s work aims to: Utilize energy expenditure data to better define energy requirements and their determinants;  Investigate how factors like weight loss, exercise, and ovarian sex hormones affect appetite, energy intake, and energy expenditure; and Translate research on energy expenditure into practice. Her laboratory employs a variety of advanced techniques to assess multiple aspects of energy balance, including doubly labeled water, body composition analysis, hormonal regulators of appetite, and diverse dietary intake measurement methods.
  • Timm Döbert holds a PhD in Global Change Ecology. He is a fellow of the Royal Canadian Geographical Society, the Explorers Club, and the Scientific Exploration Society. His research focuses on the human footprint on nature from tropical to temperate ecosystems. in 2024, he cycled coast-to-coast across Canada from Halifax to Vancouver. 
  • Leanna Carriere is a Canadian endurance athlete, strength coach, and health advocate. A former international pole vaulter and Canada’s first female decathlete, she has transitioned into ultra-endurance sport, completing Ironman triathlons and other long-distance events. Her work focuses on performance, resilience, and women’s health, blending evidence-based training with real-world challenges. She completed a cross-Canada cycling expedition with Timm Döbert and is co-founder of 7 Summits Snacks and the Wings of Survival initiative, using sport to promote environmental awareness and human health. 

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TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 - Welcome and episode overview

01:00 - Introduction of guests and episode themes

03:07 - Fun facts: animal calorie burn and bird migration myths

05:10 - Personal background of Leanna and Tim's athletic achievements

09:42 - Dr. Sarah's energy balance research and her family life

11:06 - How doubly labeled water measures energy expenditure

14:06 - Details of the Canadian cycling study and participant experiences

17:02 - Food structure, nutrition planning, and on-the-go fueling

22:13 - Managing gastrointestinal issues during prolonged activity

25:16 - Daily routines and sleep during the 30-day expedition

29:21 - Data collection protocols and psychological assessments

32:01 - Nutritional targets, real food choices, and supplementing

35:44 - Study findings: energy burn, intake, and body composition changes

38:06 - Hormonal considerations and potential water retention effects

39:37 - Mental resilience and future research directions

40:57 - Upcoming ecological expeditions following bird migrations

44:33 - Lessons learned: sleep, rest days, and next adventure plans

45:35 - Planning future routes and documenting ecological studies

49:55 - The incredible journey of bird migration from Alaska to South America

52:22 - Fun facts: dinosaur origins of birds and migration myths

55:01 - Connecting with guests on social media and upcoming projects

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Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Nutritional Revolution Podcast. It's Kyla Chanel here, your host, and today is a first. We have three guests, a combination of participants in a study and the study researcher herself. So this is a very fun and exciting episode. we have today Dr. Sarah Purcell, and she's an assistant professor and a tier two Canada research chair at the University of British Columbia. And her research lab focuses on leveraging energy balance concepts to inform evidence-based nutrition strategies. Specifically, her works aim to utilize energy expenditure data to better define energy requirements and their determinants. Investigate how factors like weight loss, exercise, and ovarian sex hormones affect appetite, energy intake, and energy expenditure, and translate research on energy expenditure into practice. Her lab employs a variety of advanced techniques to assess multiple aspects. Energy balance, including doubly labeled water, body composition analysis, hormonal regulators of appetite, and diverse dietary intake measurements. Timm Döbert holds a PhD in global change ecology, and he's a fellow of the Royal Canadian Geographical Society, the Explorers Club, and the Scientific Exploration Society. His research focuses on the human footprint on nature from a tropical to temperate ecosystem. And in 2024, he cycled coast to coast across Canada from Halifax to Vancouver. Our third guest was Leanna Carriere and she's a Canadian endurance athlete, strength coach, and health advocate, a former international pole vaulter and Canada's first female decathlete. She has transitioned into ultra endurance sports, completing Iron Man triathlons and other long-distance events. And her work focuses on performance, resilience, and women's health. Blending evidence-based training with real world challenges. She completed a Cross-Canada cycling expedition with Tim and is co-founder of Seven Summit Snacks and the Wings of Survival initiative, using sport to promote environmental awareness and human health. This episode honestly was super fascinating. I loved every second of it. We could definitely have them back. They got some fun adventures down the pipeline, so I know we will have them all back. Enjoy the episode, you guys. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the new nutritional revolution podcast. This is the first of its kind today's episode. We have three guests on the pod today. We have for you guys Dr. Sarah Purcell, we have Leanna Carriere, and Dr. Timm Döbert. Did I say that right? Kind of. He says it's okay. Um, we're gonna have a real fun time today because we are breaking down not just a study, but also the athletes in the study's. personal experience. So this is gonna be very fun for for hopefully me and hopefully our listeners and hopefully you guys. but before we do that, we are going to break down and get everybody's two truths and lie. This is gonna be the biggest two truth and lie I've I've ever done. So I'll start in the order that I introduced you guys. So why don't we do Dr. Sarah yours first. Great, so I chose an extreme energy expenditure and energy intake theme and the animal kingdom because that's what we're talking about today. Okay, so first one, a blue whale can burn up to 4 million calories a day. 4 million. An African bush elephant can burn up to 200,000 calories a day. Or a polar bear can eat up to 60,000 calories in one sitting Okay. I this is all fascinating. This is all fascinating. I kind of part of me is like these all could sound real to me. goodness. I feel like polar bears don't eat that often, right? So like maybe they would put down a lot of calories in one sitting. An African bush elephant. I don't know if that's a Is that a smaller elephant than a normal? I don't know if that's a different size, but they're pretty big. I feel like they could 2,000, 200,000, right? Cals per day, four million and a blue whale. I feel like that might be real. Um, maybe I'll go with the smallest one. I'm gonna go with the polar bear being the lie, and we're gonna find out the answer. This is gonna these are gonna be super fun, you guys. Okay, Liana, you're up. What do you got for me? Okay, mine's not nearly as cool as Sarah's. so you can yeah, the just a little more random. I've ran them out every marathon. I've long jumped for Team Canada and I own a chocolate company. Ooh. All right. Okay. Um wait, what was the first one you ran Mount Everest Marathon? Is that a thing? I actually didn't know that. Yeah, there's a marathon that's At is it at the base or like does it go up the mountain? yeah, you start at base camp and then you run down. I feel like I'm cheating by asking you questions. Now I feel like it's true. okay. I forget if I saw something about your if you did your sporting history. So I feel like we can't the long jump thing, it might be true. I'm gonna go with the chocolate company being a lie. we will see at the end. And then Dr. Tim, why don't you break your Two truths and a lie down for me in no particular order. Right, we're also going to talk about birds perhaps a little bit, so I've got the question. Sorry, very, very sciencey too, but okay, one, two, three. Birds are dinosaurs. Birds can only migrate during daylight and some birds enjoy a vegan lifestyle. Ooh. This is really fascinating. Okay, but I definitely feel like birds are dinosaurs. I definitely think that's true. The migration during daylight, I never really thought about that, but I never really thought about that. and enjoy a vegan lifestyle. I feel like that could also be true, but you do seem eating a lot of bugs. Um, this the last two are tricky. I feel like for sure they're dinosaurs. I'm gonna go with the migration during daylight. Only can migrate during daylight is a lie. That's my guess. For now. these are gonna be really cool. I'm like excited for all of these reveals at the end of the episode, you guys. so for our listeners, hang tight. we will reveal those epis answers at the end. but before we kind of start jumping into the study, I'm gonna have you guys each give us like a little bit of a background. Tim, I'll start with you. You are a tropical ecologist. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, tropical ecologist, stranded in Edmonton. So I did both. It's, know, sometimes where your kind of academic trajectory takes you sometimes, it's just pure chance. And I got drawn into the tropics as a master's, students started working in Thailand and eventually did my PhD on kind of topics like deforestation, forest fragmentation. So broadly speaking, the human impact on nature, but that's... That's a couple of years behind me, so now I'm more a temperate scientist becoming a bird scientist. I love it. Is that is that ornithology? Is that are you is that the study of ornithology? Like are you do do bur I c my friend is an ornith Yeah. right, but I've always been more like a botanist. So all my topics, not necessarily because I'm more interested in plants, but again, sometimes you just get drawn into a certain subject and then you can start working on different topics, but birds are kind of pure passion and by chance know the focus of what we're doing. Cool. I love it. And Liana, you're a mom and also an extreme athlete. I don't know how extreme I am. I've done multiple endurance, long endurance events. Um I've been a personal trainer for almost twenty twenty years now. Um, mom to a nine year old. Uh and just yeah, love being active and love being active in the outdoors and lots of kind of experience in that realm. Amazing. I love it. And then uh Doctor Sarah, why don't you give us a little bit of breakdown of w what brought you and maybe two what we're gonna cover today. I'm very excited. So my research program is focused on energy balance. So energy expenditure, energy intake. It's primarily people with chronic disease. but I am an athlete myself, and so I am starting to dip my toe into some of these more extreme examples of energy balance in humans. and I am also a new mom, so I have a ten month old. congrats. That that that increases your energy expenditure, right? Yeah, chasing them around. Um, so for our listeners, this term energy expenditure, I I think sometimes people don't fully understand what that means and how that can be also tracked properly. Um, I know we'll probably talk about doubly labeled water a bit today, but do you want to share with our listeners um, you know, what is energy expenditure and how does So how does one properly track and calculate that? Yeah, it's a great question. Energy expenditure is the energy your body uses, both at rest, so just to keep your heart pumping and your brain thinking, your liver functioning. So that's resting energy expenditure, and then you have physical activity expenditure, which is movement, not only exercise, but all kinds of movement. And then you also have the thermic effect of food, which is the energy needed to digest and assimilate food. Measuring it is quite challenging, so it's usually only Measured in research settings. We can measure each component of those. The measurements that Tem and Liana underwent measure totals, all the calories burned in a day, as well as the rusting, and then from that we can get an estimate of the physical activity and energy expenditure. And did you so did you do that through the doubly labeled water method? Yeah. Yes, yes. um So doubly labeled water is uh it's double, so two different stable isotopes. um It's very safe. People hear isotopes and think it's very dangerous, but it's actually been used in premature babies, pregnant women, etc. So the way this works is uh individuals consume the water and then over a span of anywhere from seven to fourteen days, usually, the difference in disappearance of those would give us within 2 to 5% accuracy total energy expenditure. So it's the best way to measure total energy expenditure in free living settings. Interesting. So to kind of like nerd out a little bit and maybe take it to a little bit deeper level, because I do hear like I was just at a conference two weeks ago and they were talking about energy expenditure and utilizing doubly labeled water and in in endurance athletes as well. And how how exactly though is that measuring energy expenditure or how do you and if there's like an insane equation, I don't expect you to spew spew that out, but like what is it how how is you're measuring your like the urine output of the doubly labeled water? Exactly, yeah. So it's urine output. and so the two isotopes that you consume are actually present in very, very, very low levels in tap water. we just enrich that with the dose that we give. And then the difference and disappearance rate of those two isotopes is going to give you carbon dioxide production, and then from that you can estimate total energy expenditure. It is, yeah. Yes. Um, I at my conference too, they were talking about a company. I don't know if you've heard about this, and we can cut this out too potentially. I'm in a feel free. But with the that there's a company that's offering like a way to do it for the public. Yeah. yes, so um, and I've worked with them a little bit in indirectly. Um, I think it's the only company to actually do that. I will say it's quite expensive. so you know, obviously, you know, you're not going to want to do this multiple times. I mean, I guess you could, but it's quite expensive. But yes, there's a direct-to-consumer company that does that now. Yeah, fascinating. Fascinating. I'm sure that will start to expand, I imagine, like all the other kind of techie stuff. okay, so we are the study we're gonna be diving into today is called Energy Balance in Cyclists on Plant-Based Diets during a 30-day 43-kilometer ride across Canada. this is a study with two participants, which we have here on the pod. so I'm super excited to to have both Leana and and Tim here with us to share their experience. what What kind of like drove you to, I guess, do this study, Sarah? And then also Leanne and Tim, how did you guys become the the volunteers for the study? just gonna put it all on on Tang and Leanna. Like they start, you know, they they volunteered. Tim actually reached out to my previous supervisor, Carla Prado at the University of Alberta, about potentially adding some nutrition measurements to this. And then Carla knew I loved sport and she recommended me and then here we are. Yeah. were both Leanna and Tim, were you both plant based eaters prior to this study? Yeah. Yeah. We were uh both plant based prior to the study. All right. And and you were totally up for a thirty day, forty three hundred kilometer ride across Canada? Like were you trained for that? Like leading into that? Yeah, for sure. Uh we did lots of training prior to it. We worked with a dietitian here in Edmonton, Lilitha Taylor. And yeah, Tim Tim can maybe talk more on it, but he had this great idea of getting kind of the body tested, the nutrition tested and the mind tested and kind of collaborating with the U Bay, University of Alberta, to get data on all three'Cause we we we all we we know how the nutrition can affect our mind or can affect our body and we know physical output can affect what we eat and the mind it's all interconnected, so with the goal of perhaps coming out with a a paper that kinda embodies all three, but Sarah and her team was ju were just so awesome to be a part of and we were more than willing to get tested. That's awesome. So what yeah, Sarah, why what exactly were you trying to test through this study and also why thirty why thirty days? I think the why 30 days is a better question for Tim and Liana. but my main focus was on energy balance, and there is very little data on vegan athletes or plant-based athletes in relation to energy balance and exercise. And so for me, it was a very interesting question scientifically. Yeah. So measuring energy balance and then are you also looking at body composition and weight change through the 30 days as well? Of course, yeah. So we have nutrition intake, energy expenditure, as well as body composition and body weight changes. Great, cool. And then for Tim, why don't you share with us like how how was the food structured? Were you going in with a a plan? Were you guys reliant on gas stations? Was food supplied? Like what did that look like through the thirty days? Yeah, all supplied by Liena. It's almost a Liena question she was looking after, after the cooking. So we did have certain vegan kind of sponsors who send us some product. But I was literally just eating all the time and that strategy worked pretty well. But Liena can kind of dive into the nitty gritty nuances of what we did. Yeah, why don't you share that, Liana? Yeah. so we were working with Laletha and and Sarah and getting some numbers that rough numbers of what our caloric expenditure expenditure would be, kind of on a day to day basis. We kinda got a good idea of how much fat carbs and protein we needed to get in. Even prior to the ride we were looking, so one thing I did notice was and I I mean protein's such a hot topic right now, so don't want to over talk about it too much. But I kind of realized that some of our vegan protein alternatives didn't have enough protein in it. So I made sure while we were on the road that I was, say, making a tofu based rice in a pot. I try to keep everything in one pot. I'd throw an extra can of beans in there. So I I try to add where I could for those kind of meals when we were cooking because we were camping. On the go, uh, we had some vegan alternatives, kind of this protein jerky that we'd eat, sugar super simple sugars, chocolates, protein bars, we'd have fuel with electrolytes. So in the morning I'd pre-make a bag with a certain amount of calories, I think twice. So in total, I think it was four days at the the first four days at the beginning and then in the middle we had to track everything and write everything. So It's hard because when you're hungry, sometimes you just want to grab a handful from a bag and eat. so we had to pre-make those bags with kind of our our nuts or squares and sometimes just a variety. I would say a variety of different foods. Gas stations weren't actually Subway was where we found the sweet zone. When we saw Subway, we got excited.'cause you could get a a big kind of vegan based wrap and for under ten dollars that was that was pretty awesome. I found A protein smoothie place. It's called I think Froyo or something. The middle of Saskatchewan on a gas station. It was like a mixer self. I couldn't believe it. I walked out with these two cold because it was so hot. Protein drinks. so sometimes the gas stations were really a mix of things. but we had my sister also, who also is uh She did study nutrition and she's a food scientist. So she sent groceries halfway through the ride. So we just walked into a safeway and everything was there. So we had we worked with Lolita to really go over what we needed. And then just we wanted to make sure we had enough of a variety. It was two grocery carts at Superstore I rolled out with. And then we had another big order halfway through from a from a safe way. Yeah, protein based cookies. So I try to make sure we're always getting enough protein in, which I think we did a pretty good job, Sarah. and making sure we got enough calories uh and I don't know if we'll get into it more, but yeah, like Tim's burns a lot of calories between the two of us. We're looking at sixteen thousand calories a day to fuel, which is a lot of food. Is that fueling like one to one or is that a fuel that's fueling a percentage of what you're expending? The sixteen thousand. That's that was like I think the like the total what we had to refill at the end of the day, right? So like throughout the day we were taking in. I believe Tim was a little under and I was able to kind of meet that six thousand. But I mean a lot of that's very simple. I'd add extra oil into our meals. just Tim's so great at eating. Especially on the bike. He's so good at eating anything yeah. stop to eat when I'm exercising a lot, so I have to take it in through drinks. Like Gatorades are really good for me. But Tim will I'll I'll look at him and he'll be like, Yeah, I'm done my snack pack. And I'm like, what? I'm I've had like two nuts. But he's really great at eating on the bike. I think really helps when he does these long rides. Yes. Yeah. So did either of you guys deal with any GI issues taking in that many calories or cramping or nausea, burping, like anything like that throughout? Nothing That's amazing. Wow. it's been the time of our lives. Eating, cycling, no, no problems. I just briefly want to throw in, we did have a support vehicle, just so people don't think we took all that rice and tofu into our backpacks. I don't think we mentioned that. There was actually a vehicle supporting us, which also allowed us to collect certain data, like urine samples, which otherwise we could have never collected. Yeah, yeah. So and Leon, it sounds like you so you guys are riding, I imagine, like a good chunk of the day, and then you're still coming back and cooking and preparing food after? Yeah, I think that was the hardest part. I think the yeah, going also leading into it, we knew like for Tim, he tends to cramp. so we knew that like races that he's had cramping issues before. So we made sure that we had, you know, he was taking in enough of the salty type foods that we're having some sort of electrolyte. I don't my stomach doesn't do well with certain electrolytes. So I I just find like the standard Gatorade is the way to go. Sometimes he's the most sweet. So we're able to kind of make sure we had we each had what we needed on board to sustain us and avoid bonking, cramps, any kind of gut issues. Cause that that really is the worst. All endurance people have gone through it, I think, a time or two and then they're like, I need to call the dietitian. Right. Yes. Um, and then with your what was your day structure like? Tim, I'll I'll have you share that. Like what what time were you guys waking up? How long were you on the bike? Were you getting much sleep? What did that look like? Yeah, Liana jump in if I'm getting something wrong. It's been a while, but I'd say we got up at five and everything, you mentioned earlier, 30 days, everything was super structured because we really wanted to make sure it's useful data. So 30 days, no breaks in between, right? So 30 days nonstop. So we'd get up five o'clock in the morning and then we'd start literally before really getting up, we'd be collecting data already. So we had those... three different study elements, the psychology, physiology, and nutrition. So we'd be kind of taking the first measurements and then just, yeah, just slowly getting the breakfast ready. And when you're out in nature, everything takes time, right? And then some, it's not always sunny, it's raining and you got to manage your gear. So it'll easily take two hours until you get going, even though you haven't actually done that much. But I'd say we'd start around seven o'clock. And usually we get a good chunk of the day done in the mornings, you a little bit in your kind of still dreaming mode. It's not too much because you're on the road with traffic, but the time goes pretty quick. then Bill, our support driver, he'd sort of overtake us. He'd go somewhere to do the washing, get our clothes fresh and clean again. And yeah, take lunch somewhere along the road. And you know, just... it was so hot we did this I think first of July until 30th of July so mids of summer so just getting a bit of the shade so he's got this this nice van set up and there's a bit of a kind of canvas just just to hide and having cool drinks in the vehicle then cycle again in the afternoon and yeah so I think usually would be nine to ten hours on the bikes But then this additional time on the road where you're stopping and sometimes you take a photo or you have to find a toilet in the middle of nowhere for Liana to take a urine sample. You know, these little bits and pieces and then the time just goes and then Bill would always keep an eye on distance and the next campsite and where could we spend the night. And also the days, days easily go and they get somewhere. Liana, like Bill setting up camp, Liana cooking. It's easily nine o'clock, then you get an hour to recap a little bit the day, take final measurements, some kind qualitative data, so interviews for the psychologist and be at bed by 10, 10.30, sleep by 11. So six hours of sleep in a lot of ways, in a lot of ways not enough. Pretty, pretty hammered after 30 days, that's for sure. But I think we manage pretty well overall. Wow. Yeah. Man, it like it sounds amazing. And then also I'm sure it was like like you're saying, six hours of sleep was also very rough. Sarah, when when Tim's talking about measurements in the morning, are you so you are you from like afar collecting this data and and they're logging this? Yes, but first I just really want to commend Tim and Liana. They're probably some of the best participants I've ever had. And you know your food records were just amazing. And so I think that's really reflective of how much energy and effort you put into this and how much you really wanted to do research and get data. And I think that that's so important doing these field type studies. You have to have buy-in from the participants. So to answer your question yes I was in Kelowna the whole time um while they were doing all of this. the few days before they left on their ride, it was a little bit of a mad rush to make sure that they had all of the equipment to, you know, we had all of the instructions that we were ready to go and they both worked you know, I think it was down to like the hours basically away getting all of this. And so you know, it really helped to have participants and athletes who were so flexible. Great. And so were you having them collect like every single urine sample or no? Okay. and I can't remember the exact schedule, but I think so usually with double label water you dose, you collect a urine sample right before you dose and then a two a few hours after, and then I think uh like to one or two a few days after, and then one or two seven days after. But you know, when you're in the middle of nowhere, that's challenging. Right. Yes. And then other metrics. so you uh Tim, you mentioned like interviewing with the psychiatrist or psychologist. is that via Zoom or is it a form you're doing for the mental side? Yeah, had some, so any data collection we did, had sort of this pre-expedition component, a post-expedition component, and the expedition itself. so most things pre-expedition, we kind of did on site here in Carla's, Carla Prado's lab, and Michael Kennedy, Emma Mosovich. So they're all University of Alberta scientists. For the psychology data, I think we had an app, right, Liana? We had an app and... I think we used it daily, maybe every morning, every evening. then midway into the ride, we also had an interview. So we actually sat down in a gym somewhere in a tiny settlement. We found a gym space and wifi and, cause it had to be sort of private, right? We wouldn't want to like all sit in the van, the three of us and yeah, you needed the privacy components. I think that's. Is that correct, Liana? That's what we did? The app and... For for both the physiology and the psych, we used an app called I think it was Red Cap. And so yeah, Michael's team and then Amber's team, they put in questi questions to ask. the psychology, I think it was morning and night. The physiology we had to take we had to do it I think it was within twenty minutes after finishing the ride. Plus morning. So they came up with questions and we just kinda went through, you know, how tired of you are you in level, you know, one to ten. There's a variety of questions. It took a lot longer. It was a lot more consuming than I realized. Wow. And are you also tracking like weight every day? Like you guys hopping on a a bathroom scale every day or multiple times a day? Yeah, Sarah sent us with a scale. I don't I think you did you require us to wait? I know we we would check in on our weight because I was I was curious. I wanted to know our heart rates for myself. I wanted to know heart rates and weights and blood pressure where blood pressure cuff went off. So for me, those were like daily indicators if there's any flags of of getting sick or being run down or maybe needing a rest day. Mm-hmm. So from my end, but Sarah, I don't remember if you collected our wait halfway or Yeah, I think we had a few weights. It wasn't every day, but we had a few weights in that one week period with the double A label water and nutrition. Hey everyone, when's the last time you actually looked under the hood with comprehensive blood work? 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And now back to the show. so, let's see, I'd love to hear I know you talked about sixteen thousand calories. from a s like sports product lens, were you trying to eat so many calories like per hour? Were you trying to get so many grams of carbs per hour? Was there a target in mind for either one of you, Tim or Lyanna? think the goal was to finish our snack bags. So if I knew each meal was gonna be, say, between five and seven hundred calories, breakfast, lunch, dinner, and then packing those snack bags, but you don't Yeah, you don't I don't when you're on the road, you're you're kinda just you want to keep the the drip going and we're working at a low enough heart rate where we're not where that digestive system's not inflamed or irritated. So it it it's really just being mindful that to keep eating as you go, I think. yeah, I don't know if anyone else has anything to add to that. Great. Tim you It wasn't kind of paying attention too much how many carbs or so per hour. was literally, for me at least, it was literally just the luxury of having this little frame pouch on my top tube and just being able to snack. It's the best time to eat those things that you could never afford to eat in those quantities eh anywhere else on the bike. So so what were you eating? What was in your snack bag, Tim? Well, you mentioned the jerky, which was actually really tasty. Lots of chocolate, dried mangoes, seeds, nuts, all these tasty things. Some cookies that we got sponsored, which were really nice. They tasted way better on the road than afterwards, I have to say, when I tried them again. Lots of things taste really good when you're kind of on the move, right? as compared to everyday life. But I'd say that that was pretty much all staples. Amazing. So it sounds like you guys were able to put in like more real food fueling as opposed to like gummy bears and I don't know, soda and stuff like that. Was that the intention uh trying to get like more real food sources for energy or wha what was the kind of thought around that? Yeah, I really uh the biggest thing for me was I didn't want to change too much of how we normally eat. So if we actually like we gotta eat all these extra stuff, but it's not too far off of what we eat now. It's just like it's not as high and maybe we don't eat a big of chips or you know. but you know, the mornings would start with heavy porridge and I'd add extra, you know, extra scoop of peanut butter in there, extra trail mix in there. So adding extra to each meal for sure. Sorry, I just what what was your question? I just wanted Just trying to get more real food in versus like manufactured gummies and stuff.'cause you can get a good variety for your taste buds. I don't also think it's just it's just what I always believe in is real simple ingredients as much as possible. That's I I think it's just better for your body. When you're doing something like this, we're doing, you know, a hundred and fifty kilometers a day on average. I don't wanna be fueling with a whole bunch of crap and then you kind of feel this hungover because the next day we we have to get up and cycle and do it again. So it has to become a lifestyle and knowing going into this bigger expedition when we're gonna be cycling even further, it's the same sort of thing. You have to make it very real life and and we can't survive off of gummies and goose and and pre packed this and that. Like I think I really believe in like simple ingredients overall. And much more micronutrient dense as well, right? Than, you know, a pack of gummy worms or something like that. okay, well Sarah, I'm gonna have you break us down what what did you end up finding from the study? What what changed? Yeah, they ate a lot and they burned a lot. The take home messages. so you know one of the the biggest things is that you know their energy expenditure was incredibly high. So just looking at the data here. So for example, Liana's was about 5600 calories early in the ride and then at the the end of the ride it was about sixty three hundred Wow. was 9300 and about 9200, so very, very high. These are some of the highest numbers you know I've seen. and their physical activity level, unsurprisingly, was quite high as well. And so in the literature, what we use is PAL, so physical activity level, and this is the ratio between total and resting energy expenditure. there is some controversy in the field of. These really high PAL values, uh and both of their PAL values during this ride were just slightly above what has been uh initially proposed as the limit to human energy expenditure. And so and they did this obviously on a plant-based diet. And I think with the plant-based diet, another thing that I want to highlight is. They maintained a really high level of protein. So it's about 2.3 grams per kilogram of body weight. That's really high. Like that's hard to do, just like living your life, or just you know, regular athletes, not to mention that they were on the road, you know, very remote locations for a lot of this and cycling for many hours. a day. I think the average time that they were cycling was like seven hours a day or something, six or seven. And so to maintain that high level of protein, it just really goes to show that Leanna's planning paid off and you know talking with the dietitian and everything. uh So yeah, overall they burned a lot, they ate a lot. It was really impressive. Amazing. Amazing. And what were those compositional changes from beginning to end after the study? Yeah, or or weight data, or if you guys like did you do that? I thought I saw you did that, something like that, right? yeah. so you know, I kind of went into this thinking, okay, they're totally gonna lose weight, right? Like this is a huge energetic strain, but actually both of them maintained their body weight within two percent, which is really impressive. Liana maintained her weight. Mm-hmm. Tim, I believe you maintained your weight, but then there were slight changes in your fat mass. I think that decreased. and then I believe your fat-free mass increased by like very, very small amounts. And so I think that that really again just goes to show that they're really cognizant of their nutrition. Yeah, amazing. And and for our listener too, like this is a study with two people, one one female, one male. but do you think there's with based off what you found from the compositional changes in the energy intake, like do you think that there's a h hormonal aspect at play there? Potentially it's impossible to say with this study because we didn't measure that. As you said, it's with two people. There could absolutely be hormonal changes. Some of that could potentially be water retention as well. but yeah, that could potentially impact that. Wow. This is so cool. and then was there any takeaways or findings regarding the mental aspect side of things from the study? Okay. another research group of maybe me and ten. I don't know who you You feel like your mental Okay. Mm. I have to add Sarah was exceptionally fast in getting the publish. Being a scientist myself, I know how scientific papers can just drag on. know, there's so many steps in the system. yeah, Sarah was extremely fast and I'm... I don't know, maybe you know something, Liana, but I don't know really the findings for the psychological study. Is there something, Liana? No, I think the only thing we were told at this point was that they came out with a new way to get their data points from my understanding. Yeah, but but but they're still gonna work with us moving forward. So when you say work with us, there's another long bike riding project coming down the pipeline. Yeah, for sure. I'll let Tim dive into our Wings of Survival project. It's a thirty thousand kilometer cycle from Alaska to Patagonia, but Tim, I'll let you uh go into a little more detail about it. Yeah. Yeah, so that's going to happen this July. So we're going to start in Prudhoe Bay at the very top of Alaska and we're going all the way down to Ushuaia. So that's the southern tip of South America, 15 countries en route. It's the progression of summer. So we're trying to do this in about eight to nine months. And people do this, but the unique, not many, but people do this, but the really unique component is we're following the migration of birds. So cool. We're basically portraying birds as the greatest athletes on the planet. And our numbers might sound very impressive, but you look at these birds, it's just totally outrageous. And the idea behind this is to really draw more people into the fragility and the threats nature is facing and using kind of the human element as a hook to excite people because there's always these... these beautiful natural history films and they get better and better, but it only attracts a certain type of people. And then there's maybe extreme sports events, again, a different type of people, but how do you bring those different worlds of scientific exploration and natural history and youth education? How do you bring this into one story and do it very organically? And I think this is something we've tried to build and it's been five years in the making. The ride across Canada was coming up two years very soon. So this was sort of somewhere in the middle and it was an incredibly good kind of practicing opportunity. Lots of lessons learned. It's been very helpful. yeah, just six, seven weeks away from the start of the big expedition and yeah, getting nervous. Y I'm sure you guys are gonna do great. Are you gonna is there anybody documenting it? Like I feel like the you guys should do a documentary on this. Yeah, we we've had a movie production company. So our producer, Justin Brunel, he's with Moving Artistry Productions. That's his company. And he was filming me during an Iron Man event and heard us talking about this other great adventure we were planning. And he kind of said we we were telling him we were preparing for uh Iron Man in Patagonia, supposed to be the world's hardest Iron Man, and he said, I'll come with you and we'll see if we all get along Building a making a documentary. I mean, Justin's everywhere with us. So we have to get along and have a great relationship. And he's like, you know, no hard feelings if we don't get along, but if we do, let's let's do this and let's build a documentary. So it's been kinda as Tim said, the last five years. Justin's been almost on all our holidays with us. Usually there's some sort of purpose around why we travel. So Justin comes along and captures film and, you know, records sessions with our dietitian or psychology or just the other tests that we do. And so yeah, it will definitely be a documentary which I'm so excited to see. my gosh, that's so cool. You guys will have to let us know when that like gets published and put out because we will definitely want to be sharing that and then adding it to the show notes for sure for this. That's really fascinating. Exciting. okay. So talking about the what we were covering today, lessons learned. Tim, you kind of touched on a little bit. What are some of the things that maybe you learned that you're gonna be changing for this next adventure you're diving into? Changing, I think just more sleep. There's no, we got so tired in the end. We'd literally fall asleep on the bike. So not good. Cause there's so much happening that should never happen, right? With everything that's going on, that's different from sitting in an office. And still we'd get so tired that we'd literally fall asleep. So just getting more sleep. We'll have some rest days if you want in between. We'll use them for community engagement. it's become this big project. So there's, as I said, this education component and different types of scientific data collection will work with communities. it's become this big undertaking, but it won't be continuously eight months nonstop. There'll always be the occasional day of just resting at least off the bike. So I'd say more sleep. Love it. That makes me think too for your route. Is your route published? Like, are you gonna be coming down through California Bay Area by any chance? Well we we're actually going to be very close to the Pacific. So mostly along the coastline. It's not on, well, there's this sort of a route on the Wings of Survival website at the moment, but we're just in the process of getting a very interactive, let's call it expedition map. So we went just briefly, we went to Patagonia late January and we teamed up with a scientist from Western University. Chris Giulielmo and a professor at Chilean University, Juan Navedo. So we teamed up, they're experts on putting GPS devices on birds. So they're kind of like the tiniest things and they're solar powered and they attach them like a backpack. So sort of a harness system and it's fascinating science. So we'd be kind of walking into the mudflats and observing this particular species that we follow. It's called a Wimbril, so it's a shorebird. fits into the size of my palms, got a long beak to look for fiddler crabs. There's only two species that potentially do this entire journey from Alaska to Patagonia. But one of them tends to zigzag a bit going to the Atlantic, back to the Pacific. Can't do that on a bicycle. So we picked the Wimberl, which pretty much migrates along the Pacific coastline. So we went to this island, teamed up with the scientists. We caught nine birds. So it's a cannon netting, like a standard technique. You put a net out, you roll it up on the beach. The tide is coming in, so are the birds coming in as they're looking for food. And you know, when you see a bird standing on kind of one leg, they're obviously resting. they're taking a break. They come in, they get right in front of this roll-up net, and then you fire the gun. So the gun is basically shooting the net over the birds. You run to the beach, you grab the birds, you put them into a little bag. You safely take them to a kind of processing area, an outdoor lab in a way, then you take some measurements and then put the little GPS and then Justin's filming us releasing those birds and wishing them well. So of those, just briefly, of those birds we take, of the five, two never left. Sometimes they don't migrate. It also depends on age. And they have to feel ready for it, I suppose, if they don't feel well or nourish well, they don't migrate. So from Chiloe Island, which is quite far south, three of those birds traveled in one go to Baja, California, and we're live tracking them so we can see what they did. So they took the same journey pretty much, and it took them five days at 80 kilometers an hour, nonstop. as I said, completely crazy. And we were talking to the scientists and they're kind of crunching the numbers and they're using, they're looking at metabolism and... maximum weight to actually be able to take off all these different altitude oxygen levels, all these different parameters. They're putting it into their equations and they're like, these birds should fall off the sky after four days, but they can potentially travel eight days. It's pretty astonishing. So those three birds get to Baja California, pretty much the same route. And then they're starting to have their own little kind of decision-making. One bird is still there. It's just hopping around between two beaches. Seems to like... Enjoy the lifestyle there, not really making a move. uh The other one was traveling for about two weeks along the Pacific coastline of the US. So literally just hopping from one kind of beach, beach to the next if you want, and then stopped in Seattle for a week. It's kind of refueling a bit and then went to Alaska, close to Anchorage. The other one, the last one just went straight from Baja to Alaska. That's another three day trip, 5,000 kilometers. And we're now seeing it's on the way to Western Alaska, which is the breeding grounds. So they're taking on this incredible journey, literally just to reproduce, because in Alaska, the amount of insects is perfect for them and sort of the safety of remote places that you don't find on a beach. So just to reproduce, they basically take on this journey. And they do this every year, right? So they go to Alaska, go back. And so our ultimate goal is to meet those same individuals. again on the same beach where we take them in Chile. So they have strong site fidelity, they tend to return to the same places they visit. That is so fascinating. I cannot wait for this documentary to come out. This will be so cool to be able to like see stuff like that alongside uh cyclists going along the journey. okay, well, I want to be mindful of your time. So I'm gonna jump back to your two truths and lie. I'll start with you, Sarah. You said the blue whale burns four million calories a day. African bush elephant burns 200,000 calories a day, and the polar bear could eat 60,000 calories in one sitting. I thought the polar bear one was a lie. Is which one was the lie? No? Oh. it's actually a little bit lower, so it's up to a hundred and twenty thousand calories a day. so apparent so I you know I'm not a biologist, but from what I understand, the sixty thousand calorie figure from polar bears is like if they catch a big seal. So yeah, yeah. Wild. That is wild to think about it in that terms. Like a big seagull is sixty thousand calories of energy. Seagull. I was like, 'cause that's a huge seagull. now I'm so curious, like what is the energy expenditure of these birds that you're following? What did you do a little bit of digging? Maybe send send in Leah email. uh okay, and then Liana, you said you ran the Mount Everest marathon, you long jumped for Team Canada, and then you own a chocolate company. I heard you mention chocolate a few times in your bag on your bike. Did you I thought that one was the lie, the chocolate company. which one was your lie? I didn't long jump for Team Canada. I pole vaulted for Team Canada, but I didn't what it was. Darn it. Okay. Yes, I did so you have your own chocolate company? That's so cool. Yeah, I founded a company called Seven Summit Snacks with my sister. And basically because we were sick of using gels, like I said, I love whole foods and ingredients lines I know and understand. So we've yeah, developed a product line of chocolate that you can use while you're cycling, running, swimming, even being outside hiking. So they're delicious. can we do you sell that in the United States too? Can people buy We do mostly in Colorado right now. We're slowly branching out, but we can definitely send you some. All right. We will link that company in the show notes. People can check out who doesn't want to fuel with chocolate. okay, and then Tim, you said birds are dinosaurs, which I'm I feel like I'm highly convinced by, but then maybe too much Jurassic Park. birds can only migrate during daylight. I thought that was a lie. And then you said some birds enjoy a vegan lifestyle. Which one was the lie? you got it right. So they migrate. Yeah, they migrate day and night. okay, that makes sense based off of what you were explaining to us too just now. mostly at night. Really? Huh.'Cause we're eat eating during the day or? Well, it's sort of escaping predators, because lots of predators are active during the day. So I think the ones that people are familiar seeing is the big ones, the geese and the cranes, but it's actually close to 40 % of the 11,000 species on the planet migrate at some just short distances, but some very far. Very cool. This has been so fun. Okay, so Tim and Liana, we know what's coming down the pipeline for you. You guys got another big ride. Sarah, what's coming down the pipeline for you in the next couple months, year? What's what are any s studies coming out? We should keep our eyes peeled for her. I have some research related to ovarian sex hormones, so estradiol and progesterone, oral contraceptopils, these are all not an athlete's but I know you also interviewed Trent Stellingworth and Susan Boegman for further project further. So we're close to submitting the diet part of that. So I think hopefully in the next few months that'll be coming out as well. Cool. Amazing. Well, we will and do any of you guys do you want to share Instagram handles, social handlers where people can find you, follow you? I'll have Sarah, you can start. then we'll go to Tim and Lienna. I am really bad at social media. So I just have my own like personal one. but if anyone's interested, they can reach they can just Google my name, University of British Columbia, or research gate or something like that and reach me through email. Perfect. And then Tim, where can people find you and follow you? yeah, the website, Wings, www.wingsofsurvival.com is definitely the best one. We're trying to, as I said, have this interactive platform. So it'll be directly linked to, to Instagram and then the handle is Wings of Survival. Trying to keep it kind of contained to as, as few platforms as possible. So I'd say those are the two main ones. Perfect. Amazing. We will link that. And then Liana, what about you? The Chocolate Company and anywhere else? Yeah. Wings of survival, Seven Summit Snacks is our chocolate company and then at Leanna Carriere, I have all my other things on there as well. Amazing. Amazing. Well, we will certainly keep our eyes peeled for that documentary. do please let us know when that comes comes out because I I want to watch it. I'm sure our listeners are also very intrigued as well. But this has been fascinating and I'm sure I could have asked you guys all a million more questions. But thank you so much for your time. This has been amazing. Thank you. having us. Yeah, thanks so much.

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Kyla Channell, MS

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