Nutritional Revolution Podcast

Should Endurance Athletes Take Antioxidants? Dr. Carlene Starck Explains the Science

• Season 6 • Episode 191

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 53:53

Send us Fan Mail

In episode #191 we delve into the science behind antioxidants, supplementation, and their impact on training adaptation with Dr. Carlene Starck. If you're an athlete, coach, or health enthusiast, understanding how to support your body's natural processes can make all the difference in performance and recovery.

KEY TOPICS

  • The role of high-dose vitamin C and E in exercise and whether they blunt or support training adaptations
  • The mechanisms of antioxidants, including direct antioxidants versus polyphenols, and their effects on oxidative stress
  • How NRF2 signaling influences antioxidant pathways and its relevance for supplementation strategies
  • Practical insights on timing, dosage, and food sources of key nutrients like vitamin C, glutathione, and amino acids
  • The potential of compounds like sulforophane from broccoli to enhance performance and recovery
  • The importance of individualized approaches to supplementation and training load management
  • Emerging research and ongoing projects in protein and amino acid metabolism

Please note that this podcast is created strictly for educational purposes and should never be used for medical diagnosis or treatment.

ABOUT DR. CARLENE STARCK:

Dr Carlene Starck is a protein biochemist and nutrition scientist with a PhD from Massey University and over 30 peer-reviewed publications. Her research spans protein and amino acid metabolism, dietary protein quality, and nutrient requirements across the lifespan, including landmark work on how we model and measure the body’s true metabolic demand for essential amino acids. Carlene is the founder of Starck Science, a consultancy connecting mission-led food and nutrition companies with rigorous scientific expertise. She works at the intersection of research and real-world application, translating complex protein science into practical outcomes and tools for athletes, active individuals, health care professionals, and health-focused organisations. Her Precision Protein Framework challenges conventional protein recommendations by recognizing that protein value is determined not just by how much is consumed, but by its amino acid quality, its suitability for the intended outcome, and the broader matrix of nutrients it provides. She has been an invited speaker at international nutrition and sports science symposia, and her work continues to shape how we think about protein quality standards and dietary requirements in both clinical and performance contexts.

FREE RESOURCES:

FOLLOW DR. CARLENE STARCK:

MENTIONED:

TIMESTAMPS

  • 00:00 - Introduction to Dr. Carlene Starck and podcast overview
  • 02:46 - The effects of high-dose vitamin C and E around exercise
  • 04:39 - Optimal doses of vitamins C and E for athletes
  • 06:40 - Timing supplementation during training cycles
  • 09:12 - Dietary sources of vitamin C and typical intake
  • 11:04 - The role of glutathione and amino acids in antioxidant response
  • 13:15 - Direct versus indirect antioxidants and their impacts
  • 15:07 - Supportive antioxidants supporting endogenous pathways
  • 16:22 - Using compounds like tart cherry juice and their duration in training cycles
  • 18:13 - Fundamental nutrition and supporting nutrients like magnesium and zinc
  • 20:29 - Glutathione supplementation and supporting natural production
  • 22:50 - Keratin, glycine, and cysteine in supporting antioxidant pathways
  • 30:22 - Broccoli compounds, sulforophane, and performance benefits
  • 35:23 - Using NRF2 pathway activators for ongoing performance support
  • 38:41 - Physiological effects of loading antioxidants pre-competition
  • 45:09 - Clarification on her PhD research and personal background
  • 46:43 - Upcoming projects and research directions

MORE NR

CONNECT 

TRUSTED RESOURCES 

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Nutritional Revolution Podcast. This is Kyla, your host, and today we have for you guys Dr. Carlene Starck and she is a protein biochemist and nutrition scientist with a PhD from Massey University and over 30 peer-reviewed publications. Her research spans protein and amino acid metabolism, dietary protein quality, and nutrient requirements across the lifespan, including landmark work on how we model and measure the body's true metabolic for essential amino acids. Carleen is the founder of Starck Science at a consultancy connection mission led food and nutrition companies with rigorous scientific expertise. She works at the intersection of research and real world application, translating complex protein science into practical outcomes and tools for athletes, active individuals, healthcare professionals, and health focused organizations. Her precision protein framework challenge conventional protein recommendations by recognizing the protein value is determined not just by how much is But by its amino acid quality, its suitability for the intended outcome and the broader matrix of nutrients it provides. She has been invited speaker at International Nutrition and Sports Science Symposia, and her work continues to shape how we think about protein quality standards and dietary requirements in both clinical and performance contexts. This is an awesome episode. We get to dive into conversations around antioxidants consumption and training adaptation. So stay tuned. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Nutritional Revolution Podcast. We have for you guys Dr. Carlene Starck. Thank you so much for joining us. It's such a pleasure to be here. Thank you. I'm super excited. we were talking. If you guys listeners missed the episode with Dr. David Church, you gotta go back. He was the one who connected us with Dr. Carlene And we are super pumped to have you because we're gonna cover some very interesting stuff today that I think is like she before we hit record, Carlene said this is old literature, but I think it's all literature that's like resurfacing itself to with what's happening in the endurance supplement space.~ we're gonna start to talk about that, but before we start to learn. get to learn a bunch of cool stuff from you.~ I'm gonna have you break down your two truths and a lie. And I'm gonna be taking some notes here. Okay, so two truths in a lie. so number one,~ my PhD was on a protein called myostatin, which is completely unrelated to antioxidants and what we're talking about~ but ~ it's actually it's a important protein that's involved in~ how muscles ~ grow and what happens after muscle damage and things like that. So it is relevant. ~ I have seven horses and I compete in eventing.~ only compete on two of them but we've got a number here.~ and then thirdly I ~ competed in endurance mountain biking for a number of quite successfully in both New Zealand and Canada. Cool. my gosh. Okay. These are all good ones. Before we hit record, you did tell me that you had to go feed your horses. So I feel like that one has got to be true.~ well, you that you have horses for sure. And then I imagine maybe you've done some competing. So hopefully that one's true. ~ the myostatin PhD. I forget if I saw that. I feel like the the like you were saying, the amino stuff is more recent. I'm Kind of want to lean towards that one is the lie, but don't tell me the answer. We're gonna we're gonna find out if you competed~ in some events with your horses and if you're ~ the a successful endurance mountain bike mic biker as well at the end of the episode. So hang tight, listeners. ~ so when I came across when David Church referred us to you, of I know we looked at a bunch of articles you wrote for amino stuff, amino acids. and we do have a question from one of our listeners that we'll dive into about that towards the end as well. But I definitely caught my eye for the the conversation around antioxidants and specifically supplementation with vitamin C and E. And ~ I know we're going back in time for you here, but could you brief us and remind us a little bit on what what is the evidence saying right now or that we have f around vitamin C and vitamin E supplementation? Yeah, of course. So ~ I mean when as I mentioned, the you know, when I did this research, it wasn't actually me personally either, it was sort of the the lab that I was involved in. I had a couple of ~ PhD students that I was co-supervisor for that were really the majority of the research. ~ but there was a lot coming out around taking vitamin C and vitamin E when it's taken around when we train and the effects that they may have on actually blunting our adaptation to exercise. Now, since that time, so ~ we published a paper 2017, I think it was a review sort of looking at using antioxidants with a specific focus on the the antioxidant supplement that that we were researching at the time. But we published in 2017. Mm-hmm. Now, since that time, over the last sort of ~ nine years, there's actually been more come out. It actually looks more and more likely that vitamin C and vitamin E, when taken in high doses around exercise, can actually blunt the effect, the the adaptation effect. ~ so whether or not we can fully respond to the training stress that we're putting ourselves under and then adapt to that training stress. ~ so it's it's important to note that this ~ has been shown in both trained and untrained individuals. So a lot of the time When we're looking at research, especially when it comes to training, you can see a difference between effects on untrained individuals because their is not as adapted to the effects of training versus highly trained But this is something we see in both.~ But it is something that happens with high doses. So we're not talking about the vitamin C or the vitamin E that you might get from whole foods in the diet that you might get from eating an orange or some kiwi fruit or something like that. We're talking about high doses in a supplemental. And what dose would that like what is what are we talking milligram wise? Yeah, so for vitamin C for example, it's like your five hundred to a thousand milligram tablets,~ that you might have in the same width. I can't remember the exact dose for vitamin E, but it will be what you would get in ~ in a vitamin E capsule, which is a lot higher than than what you'll get in the diet. And a lot higher I will also note than what our current recommended intakes might be. So Mm. Mm-hmm. And why were individuals taking, Mm-hmm. do you think, vitamin C and vitamin E around endurance exercise? Did they think it was gonna help performance because of the oxidative Yeah, so I mean, when we exercise, we do submit our body to a lot of oxidative stress. So it's well known that I mean, just the process of being alive, we're constantly producing free radicals in the body. And so what it was thought was that as we're exercising, we're producing elevated levels of free radicals, which could potentially have a damaging effect. So if we take antioxidants, we can counteract that damaging effect,~ and then we can ~ you know, l we'll be better for it, we can respond better, we can adapt, we're not gonna get sick,~ all of that kinda. Because obviously we you know, we hear the term free radicals, it sounds pretty out there, it sounds pretty ~ nasty. They're also called reactive oxygen species or reactive nitrogen species they are highly reactive, and so they can sort of ~ I'm just thinking about you know, like ~ old computer games like little Pac-Man, you know, like going around mopping up all these little nasty bullets and and reactive things. And so that's sort of the perception that people might get is that Hm. have these free radicals, they're floating around the body, they're knocking into different molecules and they're creating damage.~ And so the thinking is let's take some antioxidants, Mm-hmm. get rid of those free radicals, and then we will be able to perform at higher levels. And I think the major thing is around recovery, right? We're going to be able to recover better and get back to our training more effectively. And so, I mean, the 500 to a thousand milligram vitamin C dose, I feel like that's pretty common dose you'd find in the store and that I've Okay comes. plenty of athletes take. and like I can think of an athlete right now now where she told me she was taking vitamin C because she didn't want to get sick in preparation for a race. Is there a point in one's training when we think about they're they're trying to build these adaptations at a certain phase of training? And then we're say couple of weeks out from a race where we're likely not getting much more adaptation. Like then is that an okay window to be taking that vitamin C? Yeah, so I mean there's number of things to unpack there. First of all, I personally take high doses of vitamin C, especially if I'm if I feel myself getting sick. I just honestly, I'm like taking it every couple hours, just chucking it into my body because I'm I just I cannot afford to get sick. So that's slightly different, right? Right. Mm-hmm. And also if we think about the literature, the literature's looking at we would call it sort of period you know period training that period training period we're either taking Mm-hmm. it immediately before or immediately after. So it's important to to just highlight that that ~ that when we're looking at those effects on adaptation we're taking it very close to when we're training. And so we don't have a lot of understanding when it comes Mm-hmm. to what happens if I take a high dose of vitamin C in the morning and then I train in the afternoon and I'm not taking vitamin C around that. Does that have an effect? Has it cleared for my system? Is that gonna impact things? Mm-hmm. So I think that ~ if you have a trained athlete and they are building up to a race and they really ~ are worried about maybe it's the time of the year, maybe everybody's getting sick around them, in those couple of weeks before a race, as you mentioned, you're not gonna have a huge amount of adaptation. Like if you're not ready for your race a couple of weeks before the race, then you you're probably, you know, not gonna be able to do too much in those two weeks. So I wouldn't expect that that would have any major impact. And if you're worried about getting sick, taking it sort of, you know, making sure you're not taking it immediately around your training is going to be a really good course of~ What a lot of people tend to do is actually sort of, you know, phase that approach. So perhaps they're not taking it during training, but then they may be taking it around the actual race or around their competition, especially if it's a you know a multiphase event or if you're competing over a number of days, then you may be able to we do know that those antioxidants Mm-hmm. are quite potent. So~ You may be able to support your body through that. But I wouldn't for your client or athlete in particular, interesting. I wouldn't expect that taking some vitamin C ~ leading up to an event to try and prevent getting sick leading up to that event, as long as it's not taken directly around training. I wouldn't think that that would have any major effects. Although, as I say, I don't have any specific research to back that up. Right. The It's just more my educated. yes. Yeah, no, there's certainly value to that, Yes. right? I mean, you've been exposed to to this to like a high degree, and you've you've seen a lot and can yeah, you can have some like ideas of and yeah, predictions and theories of how things might perform based off of what you've learned thus far from it. I think the you kind of touched on little bit, but the immediate question is like, okay, so there's five five hundred to a thousand milligrams of vitamin C. What would that equate to in food and~ is it a lot of Kiwis? Like how many Kiwis we t it's a lot. Yeah, so an orange I think an orange is around seventy milligrams or something. Okay.~ I mean the RD so I think in America in the US the RDA is around seventy five milligrams, I think, of vitamin C a day. Of vitamin C a day. In New Zealand, where I am, it's closer to forty. So those levels are very, very low.~ Mm-hmm. So it's very easy to get that from food. Keeping in mind, of course, those recommendations are based on preventing scurvy, which seems quite far removed from where we are in modern society. so an orange is around seventy. Yes.~ a green I think it's a green kiwi fruit is up around the hundred. And then we have gold kiwi fruit which is much higher, maybe 150, I think. Don't quote me on that. interesting. I am pulling those numbers sort of, you know, ~ from somewhere in my memory. Yeah. But fruit can be quite high. Not all fruits, Mm-hmm. so and if you took looked at fruits on average, a number of fruits don't contain Mm-hmm. lot of vitamin C. ~ there are some vegetables that contain a lot like capsicum or red pepper can contain quite a bit and I'm pretty sure broccoli Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. may contain a little bit as well. So so but in general the amount the amount that you'd get from a diet from a balanced diet containing a variety of fruits and vegetables is more than sufficient to provide us with our recommended intake. So when we're supplementing we are taking doses that are much higher than that. Yeah. The other part to this of course is that ~ Right. what's been shown is that actually when we take those high doses, our body doesn't actually absorb all of that. So we will excrete quite a bit of quite a bit of that. So I I'm pretty sure something like two hundred milligrams is the amount that Right. can be absorbed. So you may actually, you know, ~ if you're taking five hundred to a thousand milligrams, you're probably not getting all of that into the system.~ anyway. ~ so ~ Mm-hmm. Yeah, and there there are a few it does seem to potentially have a an oxidant effect at a high dose as well. So that's the other thing to keep in mind is that a lot of these compounds Mm. or supplements that have antioxidant effects at a normal dose can actually become pro oxidant at a higher dose, which we can probably get into a little bit later, but that's another thing to keep in mind, especially when you're looking at supplementation. Whoa, yeah, that is very interesting. Pro oxid. Okay. So, okay. So this also leads me into kind of people I feel like on the interwebs, like taking a little bit of something and then extrapolating it to something big, right? So they hear like vitamin C and they're like,~ they apply it to all antioxidants. What are your thoughts on that? Do we know like anything about that, whether this applies to all anti ~ antioxidants and immediately think of like tart cherry juice is like something that's handed to tour de France athletes, right, when they finish their stage.~ that's gotta be rich in antioxidants, but does it have a thousand milligrams of vitamin C? Probably not. Yeah, so it is really interesting actually.~ and tartary juice is is a really cool supplement that I haven't actually played Mm. ~ with myself, but I'm keen to get my hands on some. I know you can get tartary juice powder now, which I'm gonna I'm definitely gonna see if I can purchase ~ and play with. Mm-hmm. But ~ so I I think the thing what's you know, we have different categories of antioxidant in terms of how they work, Mm-hmm. how they operate, where they come from. So in the diet you have your things like vitamin C and vitamin E, which function as direct antioxidants. So they actually have ~ an interacting effect with the free radicals that they're going to generally what happens is is it's to do with redox biology, you know, you have oxidation reduction. I don't know if you remember that from school. Mm-hmm.~ but really what we're doing is these, you know, an oxidant will go around oxidizing things. So then that needs to be reduced in order to to sort of deactivate or to neutralize it, I suppose you could say. Mm-hmm. So you have your ~ direct antioxidants which will go around and they will actually interact with these free radicals to neutralize them. But then you have things like your polyphenol antioxidants. So these are bioactive components that you might consume in other fruits and vegetables, and that's probably the thing that's working the most when you take something like tart cherry juice. These polyphenols don't have a direct effect on the antioxidants Mm. on the free radicals. But what they actually tend to do or seem to do is upregulate endogenous pathways or the pathways that exist within our body to stimulate those to jump into action and then you know work to mop up any sort of free radicals or excess free radicals that might be existing in the body. So those are two different effects. Interesting. And it seems like when we're actually doing the latter, so when we're supporting the body's natural response, that doesn't Mm-hmm. seem to have the same blunting effects because we're not, you know, like I would I think we can probably relate it to an analogy like AI or something like that. The the very contentious AI. So with AI, the the concern is that it's going to take our jobs. Right? So it's coming in, it can do what we already do, Mm-hmm. it we no longer need it. So that's like our direct antioxidants. Mm. can come in, they Mm-hmm. can do the job of what our body would normally do. So our body's kind of like, screw you, I can go and do something else. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm not needed, I'm gonna find another role for myself. Whereas with our polypheno antioxidants that is that are supporting the body's natural response, that's more like saying, okay, I'm going to learn how to use AI and learn how to use that tool to help Mm-hmm. me to do my job better. So AI is not replacing me, AI is actually enhancing my Right. My ability to do my role. Very cool. That yeah, that is a question I'd I wondered about too with the tart cherry juice is like again, you see it getting handed to these athletes on event day, but is this something that they would be beneficial for them to be using all through their season or through hard training blocks, or should it really only be something that's used on those like key events? it sounds like it could be all s year round. Yeah. You know, I thought long and hard about this and I I do think it's individual and I do think it's gonna depend on the load that we're putting on our body. Right. So you could say, look, Mm-hmm. I'm training really, really hard. I need all of this additional support. Then that begs the question, if you're training so hard that you need to be constantly providing supplementation to yourself to help you r to recover, A Are you actually training in a way that's supporting the adaptation so that you're growing stronger over time? Or are you doing too much? You know, Mm-hmm. like the purpose of training is that it's this concept of hormesis. So we provide small amounts of a stressful stimulus, Mm-hmm. the body responds to that grows stronger. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And over time we adapt and we get stronger and stronger and fitter and fitter and our performance increases. But there is a point at which, you know, this is the the difference between overreaching and overtraining. So overreaching is what we want, we want to reach further than what we can currently do. Overtraining is when we're doing so much extra that now the body can't respond, can't adapt, and our performance decreases over time. So if we are having to constantly supplement ourselves, that would say to me, actually we're moving more into that overtraining zone.~ and we don't want to be doing that. Mm.~ so I would always Go back to square one and say, what is my, you know, how can I train in a way that I'm allowing my body to adapt in the way that it's meant to adapt, supporting my natural processes.~ I would also look at the very boring fundamentals of the diet, right? Because we can talk a lot about antioxidants and supplements, Mm-hmm. but there are a number of different micronutrients and nutrients in the diet. that we need to get right to allow our body to actually respond to that adaptation in the first place.~ you know, like if we're doing, I know I know, you know, a lot of the the listeners may be doing endurance training, but for those that are doing resistance training,~ responding to that mechanical stimulus that's put on the muscle, is you need you don't just need amino acids or you don't just need protein. You need to make sure you've got things like magnesium and zinc, which actually help to support the body's~ protein synthetic response as well, right? We've got to have all of these things. So the very first thing that I'd be looking at if you were thinking, hey, look, I'm I'm I'm not recovering as I would like, or ~ I'm feeling really sore, how how is my fundamental diet? Am I getting everything I need? Am I getting all my micronutrients? Is that in there? And then I would look at am I training in the best in the in a way that's actually supporting my body's natural response? And then I would add ~ antioxidants on top. Right. It could be that you are fighting a cold or something like that. It could be that the rest of your life is quite stressful and you're just finding Yeah, everything too much. And and it's and it's a support mechanism. I would be hesitant to be taking something every single day. That was a very long winded answer to your question, but No, I think it's I think it is spot on and it's something that's crossed my mind a lot too with ~ I f I think it was might have been Dr. Dana Lis who brought it up at w conference I was at, but she was talking about to even just like the what is it like beta alanine and bicarb and all of these tools and and how often are we using those and when are we timing them into our training season to like how can we get the most bang for our buck with our own bodies adaptations before we layer in these, you know, one and two percent. you know, advantage performance supplements too. I think w that's something that I always think about,~ too, throughout a season with an athlete.~ okay, this is all like I'm just like soaking all this up because I think it's Yeah. so fascinating. what about the the hot topic glutathione? I think you talked about that in your paper as well. I feel like I hear about that more and more these days.~ can you give a little bit of background on like what glutathione is and ~ where are people getting it from? Do we need it? Tell us a little bit about that. Yes, so glutathione is it's called the body's master antioxidant. So we've talked a lot about antioxidants and how they work. Glutathione is one of those. The body makes it itself and it does have Mm. Mm-hmm. a direct effect. So glutathione exists in two forms. There's reduced glutathione and oxidized glutathione, and and it sort of cycles between those forms. There are a lot of other processes that need to interact and come in to help with that cycling, but effectively. reduced glutathione will interact with an oxidant, become oxidized and then all have to be ~ reduced back to its y you know, reduced form so that then it can sort of cycle in and sort of go around the body. Now, of course, in a state where you have a huge oxidant load, Interesting. then you may get a state you may end up with sort of a depletion of glutathione and ~ And and so it may not be effective all of the time. That might be, you know, sickness or health or anything like that or ~ exceptionally high training loads. Mm-hmm.~ so there's always going to be a balance between those two forms. And of course, your body doesn't just have one pool of glutathione that it keeps on recycling. ~ we do sort of ~ degrade glutathione and and ~ get rid of it, so the body's constantly having to make more as well. So it's sort of this you know, like a traffic light process where everything's sort of moving through and and talking to each other. So it's quite it's quite detailed or quite complex.~ the production of glutathione. So glutathione is a tripeptide. It's got it's made up of three amino acids,~ which is glycine, cysteine and glutamate. And sis it's always been thought that cysteine is the limiting amino acid Mm. for glutathione production. ~ and so ~ If we could supplement with cysteine or we could increase our cysteine levels, and that was the premise of the paper that you're talking about. Mm. So the work that we were doing at the time was there was a supplement,~ a sort of new protein powder that a company was looking at, which was actually based on keratin. So it was a keratin protein powder. Keratin is a protein that's in our hair, skin, and nails. ~ it's very high in cysteine. So the thought was hey, if someone's taking ~ keratin protein powder, Mm. really high in cystein, that may be able to support the body's natural Antioxidant response. In a number of ways, cysteine has direct effects as well, but potentially increasing levels of glutathione. Since that paper, and since that time, what we know now know is that both glycine and cysteine appear to be limiting for glutathione production, Mm. and we seem to get really good effects on glutathione production with supplementation of both glycine and cysteine at the same time.~ So that's Yeah. that sort of ~ there's a lot of studies now showing that providing glycine and cysteine will increase endogenous glutathione production and support that antioxidant response. Cool. But when it comes to glutathione, the l a lot of the foods that we consume will contain glutathione.~ Well little known fact is that mushrooms actually contain a good amount of glutathione. And they also contain another sort of important sort Seven. of antioxidant compound as well that they're very high in. So mushrooms are great, but it's all over. Lots of fruits and vegetables contain good amounts of glutathione. I'm pretty sure whey protein is a good source of glutathione, depending on the whey protein that you'll get as well, Really? and to contain a bit of that. So so yes, it's the body's master antioxidant, does a huge amount. ~ in general, what we know is that higher levels of glutathione appear to be associated with better health and better health outcomes. Lower levels appear to be associated with poorer health and poorer health outcomes. Hmm. And so ~ you mentioned it's present in food. Are we seeing success with like supplementation with glutathione? Yes. ~ yes to a certain extent. I don't know a huge amount about direct glutathione supplementation liter literature, but you can purchase glutathione as a supplement. However, it's because it cycles between this reduced and oxid oxidized state,~ it's pr you'll I would expect that you'll get better effects Mm-hmm. by supporting the body's natural production because obviously you're not, Mm-hmm. you know, like if you're taking it in a Anything that you're taking in a supplement form, and so this probably relates to vitamin C as well. If it's ~ if you've got any kind of redox biology where it can cycle between two different states, you've got the potential that what you're getting isn't you think you're getting, or that it's not going to be as effective. Mm-hmm. Right. So my go-to would always be let's support the body's natural response first,~ and then then I'll try ~ supplementing with with direct antioxidants. Mm-hmm. Gotcha. So is that something you like a use case that again, like an endurance athlete could use after~ I don't know, think of like someone doing like a multi-day stage race or you know close to back weeks of racing, like one a weekend for a couple weekends in a row. Like is there a use case there, do you think, to help manage? Yes, what most athletes seem to be tending towards is the ~ inacetyl cysteine.~ so that seems to be the go-to approach, Mm. which is providing the cysteine to support the body's natural production Wow. Mm-hmm. of glutathione. ~ seems to have quite good effects and purely for that for that reason is that it it's seems to be better to support Mm-hmm. the body's endogenous response. And then of course now we have supplementing with both glycine and cysteine is appears to do a better job. So I think that's what most high-level athletes will go towards.~ at the same, just you know, as I'm talking about all of this too, Mm-hmm. as I mentioned, everybody's an individual and everyone has a different life and they come from different backgrounds and they're doing different things. And so it could be that one person takes a supplement and they find, hey, I'm getting a huge response from this, this is amazing. Another person takes the same supplement and says this Mm-hmm. is no good for me, it doesn't work. Mm-hmm. So playing around with different things, I would say don't be scared to try. If you're going to try different things, don't try them on race day. Try them around race day and experiment.~ I mean, you know, I have horses now and I compete with horses and I do treat them very much like an athlete. And so I'm always playing around with different things. And the big thing I notice is that what works for one horse and supports one horse is completely different than what works for another and supports And so it's the same for us. ~ And so just, you know, having some fun with it, figuring things out during training. I was always, when I was training, I was always the type where I'm going to deprive myself as much in training as I possibly can so that when I get to race day and I'm taking all this stuff, I feel amazing and I can just really go out and just kick butt. Right. So that was always my approach. Yeah. I'm not sure that it was the best approach. But that were that was what really that worked really well for me because Ha ha. Yeah. It gave me a psychological advantage and I was always looking for the psychological advantage. I knew that I could push my body through anything, but it was my mind that would let me down. So that's sort of what I went for. wow, yeah. That's yeah, very clever. I I think it was~ was Asker Jukendrup. He was talking about how Elliot Kipchogi, when he broke the two hour marathon, he like trained to tolerate a certain level of dehydration in his training because they knew he couldn't replace it.~ percent. I think they said he lost like I think it was like 11% of his body weight or something crazy, like in the two hour marathon. It was something like High, high, high, like compared to what's the literature what says like over two to three percent dehydration, you know, performance impairments. He was like three times that or something crazy. So ~ yeah, I think that is, yeah, in your training, tolerate and then when you can bring I mean, you still lost a ton of fluids and I'm sure came out pretty dehydrated, but ~ being able to manage that is pretty pretty probably feels pretty good on the day of. the keratin thing you mentioned, mentioning glycine and cysteine is Collagen is rich in glycine, right? Yes, it is. It is rich in glycine. I was actually just mentioning keratin keratin. So keratin is rich in both glycine and cysteine.~ and one of the things that I'm looking back at the literature, the so a randomized controlled trial supplying keratin protein powder was done, but they didn't measure glutathione production. Hm. And it would have been really interesting to measure that because armour does Yeah. support both cysteine and glycine. Collagen isn't as rich in cysteine as ~ as what keratin is, Mm-hmm. Right. but collagen's very well known for being very high in glycine. But it it if we ~ support or if we supplement with collagen or with glycine in isolation, that doesn't seem to impact endogenous glutathione production. So glycine isn't enough. We need cysteine as well to actually support glutathione Mm, mm. Okay. Yeah. production. Glycine has a huge number of other benefits, of course, in the bodies, and a lot of people report benefits from taking collagen too, so ~ but I wouldn't use it for that purpose. Right. Yeah. That's helpful because I'm sure people thought about that too when they heard you hopeful well, maybe if they're like thinking about amino acids, like okay, so the another thing I wanted to cover with you today,~ I won't name product names, but there is a product that came out.~ we're recording this in end of June, came out in the last I don't know, couple months. I immediately got like a j gazillion emails from clients about it, like should I take this, should I take this? And it was kind of like a liquid form of ~ Broccoli, I guess is the way to say it. And they were ~ talking about being able to, I believe, like enhance performance and recovery.~ I thought there was a a targeting of I thought it had something to do with glutathione, possibly,~ but or you know, oxidative stress thoughts on these like bro broccoli, pre-broccoli products helping athletic performance. So probably if anybody is super interested, so the the molecule that you're talking about is sulforophane, which of course comes from ~ broccoli. Broccoli sprouts get to be really, really high in it. It's an isothocyanate, I think I've said that, correctly your ITC. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.~ and there is a very well established mechanism.~ and the person to actually follow, if you're interested, is Rhonda Patrick. She's done a huge amount of research in this. Mm.~ so Found My Fitness is her podcast and she talks a lot about sulforophane because Mm-hmm. she takes it all the time. She used to try and get people to grow their own broccoli sprouts or produce their own and you know, eat them in ~ and then she's now she just takes it as a supplement because it's way easier and she has children. Yeah. But ~ but so so yes, there is a very well established mechanism for sulforophane. Mm-hmm. And what it seems to do is upregulate the NRF2 pathway or signaling response, which is ~ people talk about it as an anti-inflammatory response, it's more of an antioxidant response. Mm. Mm. It does feed into the glutathione response quite well. Mm-hmm. So it seems to potentiate glutathione production, signaling, recycling, all of that kind of thing. So that's probably one way that it works. But there's a number of other downstream effects of NRF2 signaling which~ seem to have multiple impacts in the body and there is some research suggesting that sulfurophane can s ~ can support certain aspects of performance and athletic performance. For example, decreasing lactate production, supporting recovery, all of those sort of things. So there is really good, at least when it comes to mechanistic science, so looking ~ in vitro and in cells and things like that, as to its actual mechanism of action, and it does seem to work very well. There are also randomized clinical trials or randomized controlled trials that have been performed, so looking at humans and very good methodology, or at least intended to be good methodology, showing that there are effects on like taking sulfurophane as a supplement and then getting ~ beneficial beneficial effects for performance. So ~ there is research there, it does seem to be effective. ~ Mm-hmm. and and and support performance.~ In terms of specific supplements, I'm not sure which ones are better than others.~ I think that one Mm-hmm. of the things so I looked into the supplement that you're talking about and and there were a few things that stood out to me. So first of all it's a liquid supplement whereas other things might be capsule~ Whether or not that's better I'm not sure. The thing that I could not find any information on is dose,~ in terms of what the actual dose is. And and so looking at the literature, looking at what seems to be an effective dose of folforophane, and also looking at what ~ Rhonda Patrick talks about, sort of around that sort of eight to ten to fifteen milligrams per day appears to be really, really good. so if if you are looking for that kind of supplementation or you're thinking about taking sulforophane. looking around that dose appears to be ~ quite a bit of dose to take. And you said eight to fift eight to fifteen milligrams of sulforophane So eight to sixteen or the isothycyanate thing? The the so sulforophane, so if you're taking a sulforophane ~ supplement, Okay. the dose of sulforophane that seems to be effective is is like you could say around ten, ten milligrams or something on average. Mm. Yeah.~ yeah, so sulforophane is a type of isothiocyanate.~ yeah. There's a number of there's a number of different there's sort of Mm, mm. Gotcha. a a group of chemicals or compounds.~ they seem to have different Mm-hmm. different actions, but so for fine is the one that everybody's raving about. Okay. If you've ever tried to buy creatine or electrolytes online and wondered, is this actually legit? ⁓ We got a quick fix.⁓ We built a Fullscript dispensary for Nutritional Revolution listeners so you can shop trusted professional grade supplements that ship direct from the manufacturer, no random third party sellers, no sketchy storage. ⁓ You'll find brands we use with our athletes all the time like Thorne Klean Athlete, Nordic Naturals, Pure Encapsulations, Designs for Health, Designs for Sport, et cetera, and a ton of NSF certified for sport options. Everyone gets 20 % off always, and during promos you can get up to as much as 35 % off, and it's free to create an account. If you set up AutoShip, you'll get an additional 5 % off. Just open up the show notes and tap the full script link to get started. And now back to the show. And so kind of like on your kind of circling back in of like your conversation around the ~ direct versus indirect and and kind of like naturally occurring antioxidants, the these products kind of they're claiming to help drive training adaptation and and boost performance. And so is that ~ is this gonna fall into the category of like this is a direct o oxid antioxidant or are we able to use this to like help our own bodies processes and we can use this often or should we, you know, use it only at timely sin you know, situations? Yeah, so definitely the the second, so the latter, so it's supporting the body's endogenous response. It seems to upregulate the NRF two pathway. So, ~ so which is supporting a pathway which then goes on Mm-hmm. and supports other antioxidant pathways in the body to do their thing. So it's more of the using AI as a tool rather than AI taking our jobs. Mm-hmm.~ so it's definitely that. In terms of using it every day, it's difficult to know because we don't have the research. So A lot of the research that's been done is looking in an acute form. So maybe a person or the the group of people were taking it for a week before Mm. the performance effect was taken. I think there is one study where they looked ~ over the course of a month, so 30 days, and they did see beneficial effects ~ on that. Mm-hmm. And I think the dose was actually quite high, so around 30 milligrams a day. Mm. Wow. I think that's correct. so But but in terms of taking it longer than that and over you know, like every single day chronically, Mm-hmm. I'm not sure what the effect would be. I would suggest that if you were to take it in a more chronic form, Right. you'd probably want a lower dose of it because it's gonna you would expect that Mm-hmm. gonna build up. With any of these things though, Yeah. you know, we can think about caffeine, right? And a lot of people use caffeine as a performance enhancer. Mm-hmm. It's a very well known urbigenicate. It's works really, really well. And ~ it seems like you get the best effects from caffeine if you deplete yourself from caffeine. So back to that, I'm gonna deprive myself and then I'm gonna use it. Right. Deplete yourself of caffeine before race day and then on race day use it and you'll get a massive hit. If you are a caffeine sensitive person. Rate. Otherwise ~ you you know there are some people that don't get a response from caffeine. so I would say that the same th so, Yeah. you know, anything that you're using to try and Increase performance, you're probably going to get a better effect by using it you know, as a form higher dose around race day. Now, of course, the other side to that or the counter to that is that okay, but I just want to support my adaptation so that actually I'm in a better state consistently ~ leading up to race day, so that when it comes to race day, regardless of what happens. Or, you know, even if even if I'm not competing, even if I'm just, you know, training for life,~ then I'm gonna be in a better state. And that's something that we just don't really know because we don't have the evidence for when it comes to sulforophane. When it a lot of people take sulforophane more as a longevity aid, Yeah.~ for helping to, you know, just support the body's natural antioxidant response Yeah. Mm-hmm. to everything in our environment chemicals, toxins, stress, everything coming at us. So that might be ~ that might be a reason to take it every day as well. It's so fascinating. So with the research looking at like dosing for, like you said, like five to seven days or something before an event with these kind of like concentrated broccoli shots or something like that. what do you think is happening physiologically to like help them perform to to pile in all these ~ antioxidants or firing up that N NRF two pathway? before when they're probably in like a deload going into or like a decreased training volume going into an event. What what do you think is happening there to like load up their system with that to perform better? Yeah, so I mean I think a l a lot of it is gonna come down to that NRF two pathway. Mm. Mm-hmm.~ w one of the findings from the research is that it decreased lactate production. So it could be that you're just helping to sort of clear all of that so~ you come in very, very fresh. ~ that could be that could be another one. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. some people have suggested that it's doing things in the mitochondria.~ but that's something we we don't really know. Hm. from the research. So it could be that, you know, like it's potentiating mitochondrial function or increasing~ mitochondria levels, in which case we can actually, you know, produce more energy and we've got more to do more with.~ overall the mechanism's not really,~ not really known. ~ I think that the the best established ~ the thing that we could hang our hats on the most is probably more to do with lactate production.~ It does seem to be a little bit as well where it's supporting ~ the body to maintain blood glucose level. So we're not getting such a drop in glucose. So maybe it's happening more at the glucose use, lactate production, cycling back to pyruvate. Maybe it's something to do with with that, Hmm. Wow. where it's really having the majority of its effect, which I'm not sure how that links up to ~ supporting antioxidant function. I'd have to dive deeper into the literature for that, Yeah. but ~ yeah, at this point don't know exactly why. but it does seem to be doing something. Yeah. Very it's so fascinating. I think it's such a fascinating area.~ okay, well, I wanna be mindful of your time here. And I know we ~ I we had a listener question come in to the and this is ~ with regards to your amino acid research, which is probably a whole other podcast we could have you come on and talk about too. ~ but someone asked ~ if they are using protein powder, should they still be taking a branched teen amino acid or an essential amino So the very annoying answer to that is it depends. in general, I would look first of all so so lots of things. How old are they, what kind of training are they doing, Mm-hmm. how much are they using, what's their overall dietary protein intake, so many different things. Let's assume that they're using a whey protein powder.~ so we know whey is a really rapidly digested, Mm-hmm. highly absorbable form of amino acids, so it's gonna provide the body with all its distinctions amino acids. And they're taking a whey protein powder, and overall their dietary protein intake is pretty high, so they're getting a lot of dietary protein, and they're using whey as a supplemental form. In that situation, we don't need additional essential amino acids or branch chain amino acids. ~ the whey protein is very rich in branch chain amino acids, it's gonna give you everything that you need. Now, what about a person who may be trying to lose weight or trying to burn body fat? Right? They're trying to shred, they're trying to lose, they're trying to work towards. a goal, ~ we know in that situation that higher protein intakes can be hugely beneficial for maintaining lean mass at the same time that we reduce body fat. ~ so and and it can be very difficult to get all of that protein in. So taking an essential amino acid supplement might be very beneficial for that. So we're supporting, you know, for very little effect on satiety or or calories, we're supporting the body's ability to sort of ~ maintain our our muscle mass and simulate protein synthesis and and everything. Because what happens in a energy deficit is that all of the protein that you're consuming isn't necessarily going to go towards supporting muscle. A lot of it's going to be used for energy because our body is looking Great. for extra energy. The other situation where essential amino acids can be really important is perimenopause, menopause aging as we move towards those states because we need more protein Mm-hmm. in those states. Our body isn't using it as effectively. As it does when we're young. So that can be really ~ good as well. and then any case, you know, immune challenges, sickness, any time where we might need more. I'm not a fan of brunch chain amino acids by themselves,~ purely because the the key outcome that I'm looking Mm. for is muscle support. ~ and We can't build muscle just with the branch chain amino acids. We need all of the amino acids or all of the essential amino acids. The reason why people would take branch chain amino ch branched chain amino acids for exercise is that it was shown that actually during exercise we will use a lot more of the branch chain amino acids. We will oxidize as and we'll burn those for energy ~ during exercise. So it was thought if I supply extra BCAAs to my body, that's going to support me in general. But actually ~ one of the sort of ~ Godfathers of protein research, Robert Wolfe, he wrote a really good paper on this looking at whether theoretically ~ going sort of into the detail of the biochemistry, our branch chain of amino acids actually going to do what we think they're going to do. And really overall, no, Mm. if we're trying to really support our muscle,~ we need all of the essential amino acids to do that. The other time when I would look at using essential amino acids. Fascinating. is for specific purposes beyond muscle. So ~ anything like people talk about using glycine or something like that. Mm. So that's where we can target specific amino acids for different purposes in the body. Glycine can be really effective for ~ mood, for example. ~ yeah it can it can sort of work in in that way and~ yeah. for calming and some people take it for that. it can be very beneficial for cardiovascular health outcomes.~ we could also look at things like ~ hyrosine or specific amino acids that might work on dopamine production.~ So there are lots of different areas that we that we could take it.~ Yeah, but I would always favour an an essential amino acid over That's cool. a branch chain amino acid. Yeah. Awesome. I love that. I think that's super helpful. okay, I'm gonna jump back to your two truths and a lie. Yeah. You told us that you did your PhD on protein myostatin and ~ that you have seven horses and compete in eventing with two of them, I think you said, and then competed in endurance mountain biking successfully in New Zealand and Canada. I thought the PhD in myostatin was the lie. Is that which one was it? Was that right? No, I actually, I only have six horses. Well actually I only I only have five horses. Yeah. We have six on the property. One is not ours.~ and he's actually pretty much a wild horse. Wow.~ nobody's ever been able to do anything with him. So we just look after him and and love him and ~ let him do his Yeah. Aww. ~ but you did endu like a successful endurance mountain biking in New Zealand and Canada. That's awesome. Yeah, yeah. So~ I don't do that anymore. I had to choose between horses and mountain biking, both a very time and money intensive sports.~ but yeah, I got into mountain biking and I was doing probably eight hour races Right. is where I is where I found my my real skill. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. and loved that. But ~ but I actually, you know, speaking of of maintaining things and overreaching and overtraining, my My kryptonite was overtraining and underfueling, Yeah. geez. so very common. Yes. Yeah, d it is definitely very common in the endurance space.~ okay, well, what's coming down the pipeline for you the rest of this year? Any papers coming out? Any conferences you're gonna be presenting at? Yeah, so busy. So at the moment a lot of my ~ a lot of my research, protein research, I'm involved in sort of a I guess a an expert forum that comes together once every while. It's called the Protein Summit.~ group of reachers to get together and ~ look at the state of protein research cool. and and put out ~ put out papers associated with that. So of course those papers won't be coming out for probably another twelve months.~ but there'll be a lot of work coming out of that. So that'll actually be really interesting if we think about where protein is at the moment and all of the talk around protein and the controversies and things. So that's gonna be very important. moving forwards and sort of helping to see where protein will be going in the future. got a bit of research, Yeah.~ so most of my research is ~ amino acid and protein metabolism Mm-hmm. and using mathematical modelling to look at that and understand Wow. the mechanisms involved. So that sort of I've got that going on. We've published a few papers, so I'm looking at the next step, which is really No. looking at imbalanced intakes and and how those work. And ~ that's something I'm collaborating a little bit with Dr. Church on. ~ so we we sort of talk a what a little bit about that. cool. and then and then just can constantly sort of trying Yeah. to communicate around protein and amino acid metabolism and and put Mm-hmm. you could say the truth out there or helping people to understand ~ how to make their way through all of the stuff that's coming out in social media and and the misinformation Yeah. and what's actually true and how to use protein to support themselves rather than cramming their bodies full of protein ice cream, do I need to do that? How do I actually figure out what's gonna work for them? Yes, yeah. Protein chips, protein popcorn, yeah. Protein. Even though even though it's it's nice, it's isn't it? It's I don't know, it's a way to sort of eat eat sweet food without necessarily Yeah. feeling guilty, whether or not it's the right thing to do. Okay. Yeah. That is true.~ well that all sounds super fascinating. We will be linking ~ the papers we talked about today in the show notes for the listeners. And ~ and then yeah, if anything comes to mind too from from you, Carlene, that we covered, ~ definitely we'll we'll make sure we share it with listeners. Where can they find you, follow you? LinkedIn is where I'm the most prevalent I suppose.~ Dr. Carlene Starck on LinkedIn. So ~ so that's where I do most of my communication. I am fingers crossed in the next month starting a YouTube channel ~ just to get more things out there. ~ so that's me getting off my butt Amazing. and actually and actually doing it, getting over myself. But ~ and then I'm also on Instagram, Yeah.~ although that's a little bit less prevalent than than LinkedIn. Yeah. So Okay. Well, we will link those below.~ depending on when this goes out too, you'll have to share your YouTube account with us because we can link that in the show notes too for the listeners to go follow your Yeah. Yeah. I'll use this as my accountability. I'll have to do it now. Yeah. Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely fascinating. I really appreciate your time.~ thank you so much for joining us, Carleen. Thank you for having me. It's been great.

Head Shot

Kyla Channell, MS

Host