Psychedelics: Explorations, Insights, and Microdosing with Matt Zeeman #509

Are you ready to shatter your preconceived notions about psychedelics? Meet our guest, Matt Zemon, author of Psychedelics for Everyone, who effectively debunks the myths surrounding these potent substances and sheds light on their potential to combat mental health issues and enhance consciousness. We venture into an enlightening discussion about the essential factors to consider while sourcing these medicines and techniques to mitigate associated risks.

Psychedelics aren't just about personal explorations, they have a profound impact on our relationships as well. We delve into the transformational power of these substances, sharing personal experiences and insights on emotional expression and relationship dynamics. We also touch upon the pressing opioid epidemic in the US and discuss various ways to safeguard oneself while using these potent substances.

Last but not least, we talk about microdosing - the practice of taking controlled amounts of psychedelic drugs. Learn about the different protocols, potential benefits, and the latest research findings in this area. We also discuss Matt's ceremonial experiences, the process of immigrating to Australia, and conclude the episode with a special giveaway for our listeners. This episode promises to change your perspective about psychedelics and open doors to new possibilities. Tune in for a riveting chat and remember to show up with an open mind.

Contact Matt:
https://www.mattzemon.com/

Chapters

• 0:03 Psychedelics for Mental Health and Well-Being
• 10:54 Reducing Risks With Psychedelic Drugs
• 16:10 Psychedelics' Medical Legalization and Use
• 30:04 Overcoming Fear and Improving Relationships
• 37:54 Men's Mental Health and Emotional Expression
• 44:23 Microdosing and Deep Connections Explained
• 58:45 Preparing for US Trip and Finding Support

Transcript

Lachlan Stuart: 0:03

The Man That Can Project Project podcast, a podcast empowering career driven men to live more fulfilling lives. We are here to challenge your beliefs, redefine success and talk about the important stuff in a relatable way. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review. My name's Lachie Stuart. Let's get into it. Welcome to episode 509 of the That Can Man That Can Project podcast. Today I've got a very, very interesting and exciting guest one that I've never had this conversation with a guru, matt Zeeman, who has a new book out called Psychedelics for Everyone, a beginner's guide to these powerful medicines for anxiety, depression, addiction, ptsd and expanding consciousness. Now, in today's discussion, we're going to be diving into the myths and rumors around psychedelics psychedelic medical treatments versus ceremonies and psychedelics in business, and much more. Now, matt, thank you so much for joining me.

Matt Zemon: 1:04

Lachlan happy to be here.

Lachlan Stuart: 1:05

Thanks for having me on. I'm more than grateful to have this conversation because, as I was just sharing with you, I've some mates who've had magic mushroom experiences and it's definitely a conversation that is starting to become a lot more prevalent, especially here in Australia, and I'm sure you hear it a lot. You're leading the way in the States, but I want to go back in 2019, you had an opportunity to experience a guided psilocybin so magic mushroom journey and it completely changed your worldview. So since then, you've gone from someone who had never taken drugs, with the exception of a few experiences with cannabis, to taking a deep dive into the study of human consciousness with the help of psilocybin, ayahuasca, ketamine, LSD, MDMA, DMT, 5MEO, DMT and more. Can you start by sharing how those experiences have shifted your worldview?

Matt Zemon: 2:01

I'm happy to and I'm so excited to be talking with you to an Australian audience. You are the first country to legalize psychedelics. You just legalized MDMA for post-traumatic stress disorder and you legalized psilocybin for some types of depression, so you actually leapfrogged above what we're doing here in the States and I'm super excited to be talking to an Australian audience about this.

Lachlan Stuart: 2:27

It is a trip down here, mate, since we're playing with it.

Matt Zemon: 2:31

Let's find a way. The yeah, I was not a drug user, I wasn't even a big drinker, and had a chance to do this guided magic mushroom journey and it just I just couldn't believe how profound of an experience I had. I reconnected with my mom, who died when I was just 22. She was 49. I had lots of just different insights, one of which being I felt so incredibly loved and safe and that felt just awesome. And then, like a second later, I realized, oh my God, I'm living my life not feeling loved and safe, what's going on with that? And just a number of things off that first journey.

Matt Zemon: 3:16

It made me, when I emerged, I was like I need to go back to school. What just happened, and so I did that, got that masters in psychology and neuroscience and then simultaneously I've been working with different facilitators to try different medicines, see how those, what those do, and then doing research and just trying to spread the word about the power of these, but also that they're not for everybody. Even though the book is called Psychedelics for Everyone, not everyone should take a psychedelic. There are people with contraindications or previous health histories that just don't make them a good fit. But for everybody needs to understand, in my opinion, what they can do, who they can help, and then that might make a decision on how they vote, how they think about it, how they talk about it. Whether or not they take one is kind of irrelevant.

Lachlan Stuart: 4:11

It's interesting and I was going to bring that up how you do say it's not for everyone, but it can be better for the world as a whole. How would an individual go about finding out whether it could have adverse effects for them or if it would be something that would benefit them? Is there a way that, like a process that people can go through for that?

Matt Zemon: 4:31

Yeah, I mean there are a number of medical professionals who do specialize in this. The one that I refer people to all the time is spiritpharmacistcom. It's a guy named oh my gosh Malcolm. Hi, I'm Benjamin Malcolm, thank you, lost it there. He's a PsyD and he does consultations with people all over the world. He looks at their medical records and helps them understand whether or not they're a good candidate and which psychedelics they might be a good candidate for. As an example, if you're on an antidepressant, you can still take ketamine. That's great For most people many people can but you probably should not take ayahuasca. You can probably take psilocybin, but not definitely. There's ways to figure those things out. Spiritpharmacist is a good place to start. Many medical professionals will help people with this. If you have someone you trust that you can also talk to them. There's lots of information in places like my book. The mapsorg website has tons of information that can help figure that out.

Lachlan Stuart: 5:45

Your book's a best seller in 19 different categories. When I was doing research, I should just list every category, but I was like we'd be here for a long, long time.

Matt Zemon: 5:55

It's wild. It's so far-exe. The first week we had thousands of downloads. It's been wild. The demand for this kind of information is definitely out there. This book does a couple of things uniquely. It's written for people without a science background, but it is all medically reviewed. My hope is that people can read it and find it to be not too technical, not too opinionated and information that they can trust.

Lachlan Stuart: 6:24

That's what I think was brilliant when you were saying, I would just say, for layman's terms, for someone like myself who doesn't understand all the ins and outs of the science with a lot of those things when you mentioned a moment ago how it is so medical, you can seek out people who can direct you in the right direction, my misconception around it was it's just like you'll go do this ayahuasca or whatever in an uncontrolled area where you could have a wild trip and just lose your mind and it's game over. That's what's been a fear of mine, because I have, as I mentioned, had a number of mates who have been like it is just eye-opening. It shifts your whole perspective on who you are as an individual, what you want from your life. A lot of the pain and the fear that you're experiencing is gone. For me that sounds very appealing.

Lachlan Stuart: 7:17

I would like that, but then the flip side of that is I've also heard stories of people losing their mind and a lot of stuff like that, but you referred back to we can find experts who can teach us or recommend hey, if you're using an SSRI or an antidepressant, for example, steer clear of this sort of stuff. This might be the right direction for you, and here's how it could help. Can these plant medicines and psychedelics be a replacement for antidepressants?

Matt Zemon: 7:51

Yeah, I mean absolutely, is the short answer there's. Wow, you just covered a lot. Let me try to unpack all of it. Antidepressants only work in something like 40% of the population. If you're listening to this and you're on an antidepressant and it's not working for you, you didn't do anything wrong. It's not that you failed the medicine, the medicine failed you and the therapy didn't work. I don't think that's made clear enough to those of us who are on, who use antidepressants. I also don't think the side effect cost is made clear enough. So upwards of 73% of people who use an antidepressant have some type of sexual dysfunction. It's a huge number. There's gastrointestinal issues. There's suicidal ideologies or ideation with younger people, gastrointestinal issues and there's a lot of other things. So if it is working but you don't like the side effects, maybe looking at psychedelics is something to consider. Again, not telling anybody to do anything, I'm talking from my experience and what I understand, but it's something to consider. And ketamine is the only legal option here in the States. In Australia you now have potentially access to psilocybin and MDMA. We can talk about those here deeply in a minute.

Matt Zemon: 9:12

I want to go back for just one more second, because the whole thing about the fear of losing your mind is something that I think we all grew up with Anyone born from 1970 until today. All of us grew up in a prohibition and we just didn't know it. No one said you're living in a prohibition. We knew about the alcohol prohibition back in the early 1900s, but we didn't know it was a prohibition. So we were just told drugs are bad, there's no medicinal use, they're going to fry your brain, you're going to lose your mind, bad things are going to happen and that's not what the science says.

Matt Zemon: 9:46

There's a really powerful study by a guy named Dr David Nutt out of Imperial College London where he said let's forget how drugs are scheduled and let's just look at harm to self and harm to others. And he just stacked them. And on the far left, the most dangerous drug harm to self and harm to others is alcohol. I think it's like a 73 on the scale Alcohol causes the most harm to yourself and the most harmed others. Yeah, it's legal.

Lachlan Stuart: 10:18

Yeah, it's legal and readily available everywhere.

Matt Zemon: 10:21

Yes, and then you come all the way down to the end of the chart. And the last drug he mentions I think it's like an eight on the scale are magic mushrooms.

Lachlan Stuart: 10:31

So sorry to interject. Could that be, though, because of the availability, for example? I don't know what the variables are on those studies, but if you're looking at alcohol being the main reason for what you mentioned, because we have more access to that, could that be why that's it?

Matt Zemon: 10:51

My understanding is the study is scaled accordingly. So it's really just how much damage can this drug do to a body that's?

Lachlan Stuart: 10:59

insane.

Matt Zemon: 10:59

So using that drug, what is the damage that typically has caused other people? It's like tobacco cigarettes would be is way up there on that chart, but like there's no lethal dose of mushrooms, it's relatively every year. Again, we I don't like using the word safe, so we talk about reduced risk the mushrooms. The risk of taking having an adverse event with mushrooms is much lower than having an adverse event with alcohol. So how then do we keep ourselves as men, in thinking that's your audience is here how do we keep ourselves safe with these medicines, these drugs? And there's three things.

Matt Zemon: 11:41

We talk about source, set and setting. So source is where did those drugs come from and are they what you think they are? So MDMA I'll use that as an example. Ecstasy there was a study done where they bought a ton of street drugs and analyzed them, and over half of things that were sold as MDMA had no MDMA in it Far half. And then another had some MDMA and then finally, I think the last quarter or 20% was pure MDMA. So in the States there's an organization called Dance Safe. There's another one called Drug Checker. If you are buying drugs, testing your drug to know what's in them is important, and if you have a pure source, you're less likely to have an adverse event. So, like in America, we talk about the opioid epidemic. I don't think you have the same challenge in Australia.

Lachlan Stuart: 12:37

No, not to the scale.

Matt Zemon: 12:39

And while opioids are challenging and there's been a kind of a constant overdose from opioids, the issue is not the opioids, it's the fentanyl and it's people buying drugs that they think are one thing, it's laced with fentanyl and then they're dying from an overdose and that's the culprit here. So again, sources number one. If you're buying a medically, if you're buying legal ketamine from a doctor, from a pharmacy, you know what your source is. But if, for all of us doing underground drugs, checking your drugs is super important, we then get into set and setting. So set is your mindset. So, before you talk to an Australia people doing the vision walks with some of the Aboriginal people, but what is the mindset going in? So has whoever, whatever you're taking, has whoever is going to be your guide? Have they talked you? This is going to be about a X hour journey. You might feel these sensations. It's going to take about an hour or whatever it is, to come on. It's going to last this long. These are the things that might happen If you see something scary. Look, you have to go forward. You can't run away. So someone helping you, kind of what's your intention? All those things are your mindset. So, assuming that someone's helped you with all that. You know what the rules are, you know you're going to be, you know what you're taking.

Matt Zemon: 14:02

Then we get into the setting. Do you have a controlled environment? Do you have a male and female presence? You kind of have the energy balanced. Do you have clear rules? Are you someone who is in the room allowed to touch you or are they not allowed to touch you? Is the music controlled? You have, are you going to get interrupted with the dog's barking or the neighbor's coming over? Your kids are running in. So again, source, set and setting. But what Johns Hopkins has found is, when you control for those three things, the probability of having a positive psychedelic experience is like 99%. Wow. Now, it might be challenging, you might have a lot of emotion, you might see something that's hard, but the probability of a positive experience is very, very, very high and you're not going to lose your mind and you're not going to fry your brain. Probably more probably than I mean significantly, probably. Again, I can't say in absolutes, but we talk about risk reduction. Source, set and setting are the three things to think about.

Lachlan Stuart: 15:01

When you say that, it makes me feel so relieved because there are so many things that I would have never considered and I've. You know, back in the day I used to take recreational drugs and it was supposed to be like MDMA or ecstasy or whatever. You don't know what's in it. I never had a drug checker. I trust my mates let's see what happens but I remember an experience I had on MDMA and I was my dad was actually there which made me feel terrible. But I was like having those raptor claws. I'm looking down. I was like I'm never touching that drug again. But as you were just mentioning the source setting and all of those things, I'm like. Well, I was at a pub with sports going on, dudes like with you know fighting and there's.

Lachlan Stuart: 15:41

It just wasn't a very nice environment. So I can sort of looking back and like no wonder I was stressed now because it just was not the right situation for that and obviously the drug itself probably wasn't 100% MDMA or whatever it said it was to be. So I think for those who are feeling potentially how I've thought about it is like get those things dialed in and make sure you're looking for the right situation if you are interested in looking at it. I guess then, looking at the medical treatment side of it versus the ceremonies, what would be some of those significant differences there?

Matt Zemon: 16:20

So let's. I mean, why did Australia legalize MDMA? Is probably a good question. So Australia is looking at the same data that we're looking at here, which is the phase three clinical trials of MDMA for treatment resistant post traumatic stress disorder. So picture veterans, first responders, victims of sexual assault, people where they've tried all the existing pharmacological and talk therapies and nothing's worked, as treatment resistant being the keyword.

Matt Zemon: 16:51

They took this population and in two different phase three trials they gave them some therapy three sessions of MDMA and some more therapy and at the end of that process, 67% no longer qualified as having PTSD and 88% had a clinically significant improvement in symptoms. So the results are off the charts. And when in a country in our country, we have over 20 veterans a day killing themselves the people who have treatment resistant PTSD it's a very challenging thing to live with. So the results are strong. We've needed a new medicine for this and now there's one available in. Australia has taken the incredible step to legalize it across the country first. Now we've had two states in our country that have legalized it and creating a medical framework around it that's Colorado and Oregon and then we expect our FDA to legalize it federally the end of this year, the beginning of next year, but good for Australia to get ahead of this.

Lachlan Stuart: 17:58

So why did they put it on the band substance list? Because I think it was back in the 40s. They were studying it back then and seeing some great use cases for it. And then what changed there?

Matt Zemon: 18:12

Yeah, there's so much good research happening. In the 40s, the 50s, even the 60s, we had in our country we had the Nixon administration and they had kind of two enemies they had the anti-war left and they had black people, the civil rights movement, and they figured by putting harsh drug laws they could infiltrate both groups. So in 1970, the Nixon administration passed what was called the Controlled Substances Act, basically making a ton of different drugs illegal. Our country then pressured other countries to follow suit and then MDMA actually was legal all the way until 1986. It kind of was under the radar 85. And then it got rescheduled.

Matt Zemon: 19:02

And that's actually was the genesis for Rick Doblin to start MAPS, the Multidisciplinary Association of Psychedelic Studies. He started that in 86 and has been on a crusade since then to get MDMA rescheduled or re-legalized and they've raised over $200 million to do this. It's been a huge undertaking and they've created, they've done all sorts of really interesting things from a business model to kind of keep the costs as low as possible for the consumer, and they've created a public benefit corporation. They've just done amazing, amazing work for MDMA. It's exciting to see that that's going to be a tool that people can use again, coming up right around the corner.

Lachlan Stuart: 19:47

It's interesting where you say that trying to keep it as affordable for, I guess, the consumer, because a lot, of, I guess, pharmaceutical goods whether it's a cancer treatment etc are very expensive and you know, even if a person does come out the other side feeling healthy and stuff, they do have the burden of financial debt as a result of that and it's why a lot of people can't necessarily take these treatments. So it's great to hear that they're looking to find a way to make that as affordable as possible for people. Thank you.

Matt Zemon: 20:16

But let's pause here because I don't want to sugarcoat this. None of this is going to be affordable. In the beginning, it is more affordable than what could have happened and it's going to be expensive. So let's start with MDMA. Again, you're talking about a six-hour-ish journey and in our country, it'll be required to have two people in the room Two people for every person.

Matt Zemon: 20:38

It's going to be a huge amount of labor when it begins and it's going to be expensive. Ketamine, which is legal across all 50 states and it's prescribed off-label for depression and anxiety the medicine itself is not tremendously expensive, but the labor again is and insurance doesn't cover it. They cover one version of it, but for the most part it's a cash. So people are paying for in-clinic. They're paying $3,000 to $6,000 for six ketamine treatments and then if they're using one of the telehealth companies maybe they're spending $1,200 for six sessions. So it can be less, but then they're taking on more responsibility for themselves and on how to manage it.

Lachlan Stuart: 21:20

So then, if I'm looking at cost-verse I guess expense then obviously six sessions. Is there a rough with the research out there? Is there a rough expectation of what people could experience on the other side of six sessions, for example? That's a great question. What's a great question they could have.

Matt Zemon: 21:38

So with ketamine the research says you need to kind of dose up. You're going to do four to six sessions over four to six weeks and then after that maybe you don't need ketamine again or maybe you need it once a month or once a quarter or just during episodes in your life. It just depends on the person and there's no rule of thumb. It just depends on how the person reacts to it. Silicitein is different and what Johns Hopkins has shown is that in many cases it's one dose, or MDMA, in many cases it's those three doses and you don't need it again. It has long, long-standing power, again in a medical model, silicitein. So again, australia has.

Matt Zemon: 22:24

My understanding is you've legalized silicitein for some types of depression. I'm not exactly sure where you draw the lines, but here in the States the research that people are looking at is on terminal cancer patients. So this is a situation where the medicine doesn't change the outcome. They're still terminal. What it does? It changes the way that that patient can experience that last chapter of their life and how their family and that patient interacts, and that can be profoundly beautiful. These people have high levels of depression and anxiety, as you can imagine. They don't have 14 weeks to mess around with a depression or an antidepressant and see what works. And silicitein in a single dose can change the way they experience this last chapter. And again, it has many, many other uses. It can be used for all sorts of other things, but for that population, that type of depression, wow, it's just incredible to have another tool in the toolbox.

Lachlan Stuart: 23:32

I think it's phenomenal and that's yeah for me. When you mentioned the price, it can come across as expensive but I'm looking at OK, if I can invest $4,000 to $6,000, and it can shift the way that I get to experience what's coming in my life. For me personally I'm like that's money well spent Because I have had mental health issues and stuff in the past and it is expensive. Going to see. I'm not taking away from other professional health stuff I still see as psychologists, but for me it is expensive. It's a luxury to be able to afford going to see a psychologist every month or every week or whatever that looks like and that adds up. So for me going OK, well, if I can invest that in there and potentially have some life-altering I guess thought breakthroughs, that for me is game-changing.

Matt Zemon: 24:21

Absolutely. And this is also then, I think, where the intersection of what you do in your day job and psychedelics may interact, and I think this is really interesting. So we have there's kind of three different models of how people access psychedelics. David Bronner from Bronner's Soap talks about this as the unified field. So in a perfect world there's the medical model. So some people I want to see somebody with a white lab coat, I need a doctor to prescribe it. I want the medical model. Great, let's all work together and make sure the medical model is legal. Other people say I'm an adult and plants shouldn't be illegal, period. So that's the decriminalization model. Anything that grows in mother nature should be legal, and that's a whole different model, and let's support that. So that's leg number two of the stool. And then the third leg is I don't want to talk about my diagnosis. Maybe I see a psychologist, maybe I don't. I don't want to have my level of depression or anxiety measured to determine whether I want to use a psychedelic, because I believe it's going to have a, it's going to connect me with a higher power, or my higher power, however it is. I define that and I want to use it for human optimization and for spiritual purposes, and in our country we call that religious freedom use. It's a whole different. It's just another way for people to meet the medicine, and I think it's an important way.

Matt Zemon: 25:53

And what happens a lot is people are working with people like you. They're working with coaches and people who they just want to be better humans. How am I a better husband? How am I a better father? How am I a better brother? How am I a better boss? All those things and they're using psychedelics to explore. And they don't want to meet someone in a medical model. They want to have. They want to be able to talk to their coach in advance. Help me prepare. I'm doing this because I have no, I don't believe in God and I don't know what happens. My parents are aging and I don't know what's going to happen to them. My kid just got an awful accident. How do I process this? My kids are are different animals in me. How do I process that? What does this mean? And then I want to take this medicine and I want to go back to my coach afterwards and I want to unpack it. I want to unpack it for months and that should be legal.

Lachlan Stuart: 26:48

Oh man, that gets me excited thinking about it. It upsets me that people don't get that opportunity because when, generally, when an individual come to work with myself or someone else in our community, they're stuck at some point in the framework, whether it's they don't know what they want from their life, they don't understand who they are and a number of other things, and it takes, as you said and I've heard you say on other YouTube videos like it's a tool. You still have to do work to continue growing through that. Quite often in society now it's like we're chasing success. We, especially with social media, it's like we need to hustle.

Lachlan Stuart: 27:29

That for many people means they can't slow down and explore who they are. We need to earn more money, we need more status, we need to provide for our families and we neglect ourselves. And it can get very you can get very resentful or you can feel confused or isolated. And now having something that can potentially you know whether it's an immersive experience through the medical model or through the ceremonial model or whatever that looks like to then come back and go, I just had this breakthrough, this thought I need to unpack that. It just helps fast track, in my opinion, fast track that experience, to living a more fulfilled life, which is, as you mentioned, matt, that's what most of us are trying to do. It's like how do I wake up every day, excited about what's in front of me? We've had X amount of years of conditioning to think a certain way. We've had experiences, we've had traumas that have shut parts of ourselves down. The goal is to unlock that and maximize what's remaining in our life.

Matt Zemon: 28:28

Absolutely. What you're saying is music to my ears, laughlin. So let's break this down a little bit for your listeners. There's no magic bullet. Psychedelics aren't gonna cure anything. It's a catalyst. So it's another technology that you can use and again, you can meet it in different ways. I'm gonna focus here on ceremonial for a minute, though. So it's again, it's a catalyst for change.

Matt Zemon: 28:51

So, for whatever reason, for whatever reason, you're listening to minute 28 of this podcast. So something has you curious enough to be here still listening. Something's going on. You're lonely, you're not fulfilled in your relationship, you're not fulfilled in your work, you're not fulfilled with your as a parent or as a child or as a whatever identity. Something's going on, and maybe that expresses itself as anxiety, maybe you feel sadness, maybe you feel lethargy. You don't get out of bed in the morning. It can look a lot of different ways, and sure, you can exercise and you can meditate and you can do all sorts of things and you can go to talk therapy and maybe in time you can find your path. That's great. In my experience, psychedelics help do it faster. Again, it's not that it's going to cure anything. It's going to give you the space to process and determine what do I want, who am I and how can I get there. And then, when you finish with the medicine, the real work starts what we call integration, and that's when you're unpacking this psychokaryo.

Matt Zemon: 30:04

What I remembered in my psychedelic journey is that I'm loved. What I remembered is I'm connected to all people and all things. What I remembered is I don't have to do anything to be worthy of love. And what I remembered is I get energized by this side or the other thing. So now, how do I change my life to have that carry forward? And you have this beautiful time after the psychedelic where your brain's a little bit more plastic and you can implement really meaningful behavioral change because you literally have changed your mind during that journey. I'll say one more thing on this.

Matt Zemon: 30:45

During the psychedelic, a couple of really cool things happen in the brain. You're what's called your default mode network. Think of it as your inner narrator, the voice that's oh, you're not good enough. No one loves you. You got to do more, you got to do better, you got to be faster, you got to be stronger, you have to make more money. That's quieted down and that by itself was like wow. I didn't realize how much noise that that thing was making. Then you have neurons that haven't fired together in a long time start firing together. So your brain literally lights up with new connections, or connections that used to connect but they haven't, because we've grown and grown We've pared it down, pared it down and pared it down, so now they're firing again. It's like oh, I didn't connect this to that or the other thing.

Matt Zemon: 31:31

And then, depending on the psychedelic you take, it can remove shame, blame and guilt, so you can process things that have happened in the past without feeling bad about it and just look at it as a human. Okay, that happened, hmm. Okay, now what do I want to do about that? And you put all that together and beautiful things can happen. It can be hard. Those things can be really hard to look at, but it can be. The other side of it is can be quite, quite transformational.

Lachlan Stuart: 32:01

I'm glad you touched on that, matt, where you're talking about the inner conversations we're having with ourself. I'm not worthy. And then also the shame, blame and guilt, because I know for myself and I've never shared this on the podcast but for years I've been seeing psychologists and, you know, coaches, and I've recently done like one of those crazy breath work experiences where you feel like you're seeing a kaleidoscope and just like it was hectic when I did that, but in that moment I was desperate for that because I'm like I've got so many beautiful relationships in my life now and I've come a completely different person to where I was 10 years ago. There's an area of my life that still struggles and it's an area that I want to improve and it's also times ticking which is with my parents and my family. There's still this barrier that I experience of not being able to fully let's just say like surrender or be be fully open with them. It's like I am. We have awesome conversations but I still feel like every time I'm there there's resistance for some and I don't know what the fuck it is.

Lachlan Stuart: 33:08

And when I did the breath work, I was having this experience and seeing all these things and I was like, man, I just love them. As soon as I wake up. I'm going to tell them I love them as soon as I woke up, matt, I'm just like that's all right, carry on. And I didn't do it. I didn't act on it. I didn't do that implementation piece you spoke about.

Lachlan Stuart: 33:25

And that's why, for me, when I keep hearing these experiences and then you speak about it, then I'm like I need to do this because I don't want to know my parents to pass away, for example, or don't want to live the next 60 years and not have the opportunity to experience what that could be. I don't even know what that is, but I feel like there's something there that's not being said or not being done that I need to need to go in through. And whether I don't know whether it's shame, blame, guilt, I don't know what it is, but that's why, for me, I'm like I feel we're having this conversation, feel my mates here having experiences with it, because it's like, okay, I need to work through that, because I understand what I could potentially miss out on if I don't do that.

Matt Zemon: 34:10

That is the key to the integration piece and that's why we need to work with either a guide, a psychologist or a coach when we're working with psychedelics, even in a ceremonial setting, to maximize that benefit, so that you write down, use the breathwork example you just gave. You came out of it I need to tell my mom I love her. You write it down and then you would go and talk with your coach okay, I need to do this. And then they would hold you accountable. Did you do it and help make that happen? And maybe it's that, maybe it's I want to write somebody a letter, maybe it's I want to write somebody a letter and then burn the letter. That's all okay, doesn't make a difference. You inherently, intrinsically, know that something is missing in the relationship that you've created, and I'm going to put the responsibility on you.

Matt Zemon: 35:01

You've created everything in your world. You're the director of your film. So there's something missing in the relationship you've created, and now you have the opportunity to change that, and that's this. It's an abundance mindset, it's a 100% accountability mindset, which might speak to the work you, again, you do in your day to day life, where we all own it 100%. It's not I own it 50 and you own it 50, nope, I own it 100%. So the relationship with my parents, I own 100%. So. So how are you going to make it, how are you going to make this, the rest of the time you have together, different? And what a empowering thing to know that you can. You can do it in your actions, you can do it in your words, you can do it in your thoughts, but it's all you. Nothing happens to us. It's all things that we create, and it's just a, a hopefully an empowering way to look at the world.

Lachlan Stuart: 36:00

It's definitely empowering. There is still like fear of what you know what that could look like, but that at the same time, as you mentioned, even when you're in that that journey state where it's like you see the fear, you don't run from it, you walk to it, and I think that's an important part as well it was just like getting moving towards that. We've mentioned, obviously, the ceremonies in the medical treatments and stuff. Another thing that I hear a lot of people talk about is micro dosing. What is that? What's the benefits of it? In what I guess cases would you utilize micro dosing?

Matt Zemon: 36:37

I'm happy to dive into micro dosing, but since we still have a little bit of time, I kind of don't want to let you off the hook so far, with the fear.

Lachlan Stuart: 36:44

Damn it.

Matt Zemon: 36:45

Because that was a nice transition. Um my uh, I'm a little curious. Let's play with this. I mean, you're coaching all the time, what? What is it that you're afraid of?

Lachlan Stuart: 36:56

It's not being strong. I feel like I have needed to be the, the go getter, the one, the ambitious one, because I have always been an elite athlete and everything like that. And I feel, if I'm not being elite, what I perceive to be elite or striving, it's like you're done sort of thing. I feel I know I feel like then when, if I were to go home, I don't have much to talk about, I'm much valued offer, but I also know that that's wrong, like that's complete bullshit. However, I can't drop that. I've never been able to drop that guy. I've hugged my dad, I reckon in my adult life, three times, as I even, every time I leave, leave home, I'm like, oh, today's going to be the day and I don't do it. Like what, what's going on?

Matt Zemon: 37:52

So you're not, you're not alone with this. This is, I mean, this is the work you're doing with men is particularly important. We are as a culture, society tells us, we have to be strong, we have to provide, we have to be better, stronger, right, the elite athlete. It's not good enough that we, and we need to do that to win the affection of our parents. That's where it starts, right, that's the first, that's the first group we're trying to please, and then it's of our partners, and then it's of our employees and our friends, and it's a, it's a lot of pressure on men to do this and men don't cry, as we're often told, and all these things. And then we end up.

Matt Zemon: 38:36

I don't see how it's not surprised us that we are living in a loneliness epidemic, that we have men who the only time we know how to be affectionate is in the bedroom, that we just don't know how to show our emotions and we wouldn't have evolved over millions of years with tear ducts if they weren't for a reason. And we know when we're hungry for affection, we know when we're hungry for love, and yeah, it's. It's a lot of masks that we wear as men and it's, I think it's important the work you're doing and that men can have this discussion openly and say I want to be hugged by my parents. I want to hug my parents, I want them to know that I love them no matter what and I'm and I want them to love me no matter what it's. Yeah, we grow up differently.

Lachlan Stuart: 39:29

Even as we're talking about it, it's like I can feel my heart race racing, my muscles like tensing up, and it just feels very uncomfortable. And the other frustrating aspect of that is I literally talk to people about this all day, every day, and you do all this sort of stuff, but there's still that resistance. And that's literally for me. I've I've spent money with so many different coaches and so many different modalities and it's still. I still need that thing. I feel like I need that experience to just be able to go. This is it, I, I, because it's. It is. Yeah, I'm glad you didn't let me off the hook, but it is. It is challenging day in, day out, like I am always going to strive for this next thing and try to make people proud. So it valid. You know this whole cycle, which I know is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. However, I'm looking for that moment where I can just go this is enough.

Matt Zemon: 40:31

It never ends. There's what? So the goalpost. I would imagine that the things that you consider success today, I bet you 10 years ago if you could have had, if you could be where you are right now. 10 years ago you've been like I made it.

Matt Zemon: 40:44

But you just move, that. We all just move the goal because we're looking for external validation and external things to to give us happiness, and the secret is there is nothing external that's going to make us happy. It might make us happy for a minute or an hour or a day, but it's all internal and if we don't spend the time making connections with other humans and sharing and loving, we're not going to find that happiness. So we're all learning, growing and healing as we move forward every day. That's all we can do until we die. Failure is not possible. We're always moving forward. So you might feel it a task, but there is no such thing as failure and there's probably things that you thought, oh, this is awful when it happened, that in retrospect you know that's great. And there's probably things that you thought were great and, in retrospect, not ideal. But it's, we're all moving forward. It's and this seems, this is, this is the growth edge. For you, it sounds like Laughlin.

Lachlan Stuart: 41:56

Definitely. I'd love to know for you, matt not to deviate away from me, but the 2019 you had that experience where you were invited to have the ceremonial experience and that was life-altering for you. What was your worldview prior to that?

Matt Zemon: 42:15

Oh, I was. I was probably like a lot of your clients. I was an entrepreneur. I built a bunch of businesses. I was making money for money's sake and I mean I'm a perfect example of this. Like I remember saying, oh, when I have 100 employees, that's gonna be awesome, and okay, when I have 500 employees, that's gonna be awesome. When I have a building with my company name on it, that's. Those milestones came and went and it's like, oh, I don't like tapping this many employees, or this is complicated or this is.

Matt Zemon: 42:43

It wasn't happiness. Oh, when I sell a business for a million dollars, I sell a business for $10 million. None of this is happiness. I didn't believe in any type of higher power whatsoever. I took my kids to a Unitarian church because we wanted them to have the community and the religious education, but not because we had any or not because I had any belief, and yeah, and then I made no time. I worked and I went home and I had really no time for my friends that I had were kind of long-term friends. High school, college, I had a group of entrepreneur men that I saw regularly, but yeah, which just wasn't a priority, and never talked about mental health and never talked about loneliness and the things that are real. So, yeah, I really I owe a ton to what psychedelics changed the way I looked and interact with the world and I'm super grateful for them. And again, this is my experience. I'm not trying to talk anybody into anything my experience.

Lachlan Stuart: 43:52

What would have been some of the main changes or things that you noticed with how you interacted with your mates? More specifically, you're talking about a loneliness epidemic, almost where people do feel we. You'll hear people talk about it all the time. We have access to everyone on social media. People are dropping into inbox your text message, your email, but we still feel lonely. What shifted for you there and how did you start acting differently?

Matt Zemon: 44:23

I think before I can stay surface level with or I could stay really great at surface level. So go meet you at a party, talk about nonsense, go home and it's just kind of we all had candy, it doesn't mean anything and I just don't have the tolerance for that anymore. I'd much rather, lachlan, have a really powerful hour, discussion with you, connect deeply, like this guy's awesome, and then, even if we don't talk again, this exchange is worth our time. So, yes, there's constant interruptions and I try to be more judicious about which ones am I gonna accept versus letting other people run my life through my inbox or through my social media. And then, when I do engage, I try to really engage and allow the time for that and the attention for that.

Matt Zemon: 45:22

And that's hard again, as a doer, like I'm a historically a task kind of maniac. You give me Evernote, I'm gonna create lists. You give me a project, I'm gonna okay, here's how we're gonna get there. And these are the 22 steps before this milestone and this and that and the other thing, and I can hide behind tasks all day long. So stopping or slowing that down and making time to have real conversations is probably the biggest change. I still get lost in my tasks and maybe the task has shifted a little bit, maybe they're more purpose driven than money driven. But when I do talk to someone I try to give them my full attention and make a meaningful connection and use that time in respect their time and my time, which is something. I guess that's. I guess I haven't ever talked about that, but that is another thing. Where it's I didn't respect my time, it was money, but besides for that it wasn't valuable, wasn't about let's exchange some love, let's exchange some energy. Let's both leave this conversation better people.

Lachlan Stuart: 46:28

It's cool to hear thanks for sharing that. It is interesting that we do. A lot of the metrics in our life is based around money.

Matt Zemon: 46:35

Sure.

Lachlan Stuart: 46:36

So I think we need to be more in the process of giving people access element as opposed to going there's other ways. I can give an exchange value through many. I can definitely feel it and it's even more mind blowing the fact that we're doing this over Zoom right.

Lachlan Stuart: 46:52

So we're missing out on some of the communication senses, right. But I can still feel how Jenya knew why, and I feel like you do deeply care about this conversation, which is wild through internet. I can tell you by just giving them my full attention. Like people, I love to feel heard. I'm sure you love to feel heard. So when you actually get that, you're like I could sit here and talk all day long and the conversation feels a lot better and people walk away going. That was the best conversation I've ever been a part of and chances are they did all the talking as well. Sure.

Matt Zemon: 47:23

And that's I mean, that's also the beauty of curiosity. Like I really do love learning about other people, I'm happy to share, but I'm also happy not to give unsolicited advice. Yeah, I mean, and you have to be to do 500, some podcasts, you have to be a pretty curious person, you have to be a lifelong learner or you wouldn't be able, you wouldn't have to stamina.

Lachlan Stuart: 47:43

Yeah, yeah, well, let's dive into the micro dosing now.

Matt Zemon: 47:49

Now, that's fair. Now he's gonna like it.

Lachlan Stuart: 47:52

Let me off the hook a little bit, but I really appreciate that last part. It's very, very rare that someone will not let me move on to the next part, so I appreciate that it was good Got a little 15 minute session in there for myself. But micro dosing is something that I'm hearing a lot about. I don't really understand because I look at things like you know, and a lot of men especially, I'm an all or nothing kind of bloke. Let's throw him in an immersive experience and get this done. Where's micro dosing's place in, I guess, the psychedelic world?

Matt Zemon: 48:24

Okay, so let's let's first define what micro dosing is. Micro dosing is when you're taking what's called either a sub perceptual or sub intoxicating amount of a psychedelic. So typically one 10th to one 20th of a dose. So if you think about a, luckily, if you were to come to one of the ceremonies that I'm involved in, let's pretend we would give you five grams of mushrooms, so you'd have a very deep dive. If you're micro dosing, maybe you take 0.15, 0.25, 0.5, somewhere in that zone, depending on how the psilocybin affects you. People take believe in micro dosing because they believe it helps them with creativity, helps them with connectivity. It makes the blues bluer, the grays less gray. The research is split. There's some research that says, ah, micro dosing is really a placebo, and there's other research that says no, no, no, this actually does work. Again, it's early days for that. People can make their own determination, but it is becoming popular People typically, when they talk about micro dosing, they're typically talking about either mushrooms or LSD, and then mushrooms are typically more available than LSD. So I think that is why it's done more. There's two protocols for micro. You know. On my website, by the way, matzemacom, there's a free guide to micro dosing. There's also a great course by Third Wave that if you go to their website. So there's lots of resources out there for micro dosing. But there's kind of two main protocols. There's the Dr James Fadiman protocol and he says look, take your micro dose on day one, still in your body in day two, let it flush out on day three, take it again on day four. And you do that over and over and at the end of four weeks take a two week break. So that's the Fadiman protocol. He wrote the psychedelics explorers guide. He's super reputable in this space and it's kind of the godfather of micro dosing. Paul Stamets, who's a famous mycologist, says yeah, you can do it that way, but I think you should take it four days in a row because it's easier, and then take a three day break and you do that for four weeks and take two weeks off. So just a different protocol. Some people like Fadiman's, others like Stamets, I don't know. The other thing that Stamets does that's unique to his protocol is he says look, in addition to your psilocybin, your active ingredient in the magic mushroom, put in a little lion's mane and niacin, and the combination of those three things are referred to as the Stamets stack and what he has explained, his research has showed. His research is fascinating that when it comes to memory and dexterity, that that combination of those three things is like he uses example, it's not one plus one plus one, it's gunpowder. It makes this whole new thing and it's exponentially better. So that's typically what some people talk about, microdosing.

Matt Zemon: 51:26

When we talk again, I'm gonna go just back up for your listeners one more time. When we talk about ceremonial doses, that's macrodosing. You're going in there. You typically will have a guide or someone who's hopefully super experienced in what you're doing Hopefully it's a man and a woman and you're gonna take a large dose and you're gonna go deep inside yourself.

Matt Zemon: 51:45

The ceremonies that I've participated in, that I'm involved with, are typically multi-day, so you'll take different medicines over different days and there's a lot of history with that. Like in the ayahuasca tradition, many times you'll do three sessions over three days or four sessions over seven days, and the idea is that you're able to go deeper each time. So it can be incredible. I'll give a specific protocol, ceremonial protocol. One type of ceremony is to have day one be either MDMA, like you talked about, or SASEFRAS, which is also known as MDA. It's a little bit longer, a little bit deeper. It's a heart opener. So on day one, open your heart, feel the love to yourself and to all the people. It's a great way to start, it's a great way to get into ceremony, connect with that higher power, and it's a gentle medicine.

Matt Zemon: 52:41

Day two psilocybin. So now you've practiced, you're feeling open, you're surrendered, you understand how ceremony works, you've connected with the other people in the room. Now you can do that deep dive and do that kind of cleaning at the molecular level, that deep connection with the higher power. It's beautiful. And again, 6 hours-ish for psilocybin, and then in some ceremonies they might move to Bufo next. Or 5MEO DMT, which is a very short medicine, 10 to 20 minutes but it's known as a personal conversation with God. There is no question of you, just dissolve into the energy of the world. There's no you, there's no earth, there's no time.

Matt Zemon: 53:26

You're just gone and it's really incredible. There's a joke about there's a lot of atheists who try Bufo and none of them emerge as an atheist afterwards. It's powerful, powerful medicine. But again, doing multiple medicines over multiple days allows you to go deeper, connect stronger and is a really nice ceremonial practice. And then so here's how it ties back to microdosing. Then, after that type of experience, as you continue the integration process with, hopefully, your coach, your psychologist or your rabbi or whomever maybe, then you incorporate some microdosing to help remember and help the spirit continue. But again, that's a personal choice.

Lachlan Stuart: 54:10

That's incredible. A couple of days driving deep Is that fatiguing.

Matt Zemon: 54:17

I just remember when I was like, yes, of course it is, but it's also energizing because the whole experience is so. Again, you haven't experienced this yet, but there's just nothing like it and it's hard to explain. Like what does it feel like to be completely safe and loved? Until you are completely safe and loved, what does it feel like to connect with a, to have your own direct religious experience? I don't know. I didn't think it was even possible. I raised people in the Bible or in the Quran or whatever. It's not for me.

Matt Zemon: 54:58

No, you can have your own direct religious experience and it's pretty liberating to again time back to your audience, the people you work with every day. We know how to take control of our bodies and we know how to take control of our minds in terms of learning and content, and we can be disciplined in terms of generating resources. Well now, how do we become disciplined in terms of loving ourselves? How do we become disciplined in terms of making time for this higher power, making time for everybody and everything? And psychedelics doesn't cure it. It's not an instant switch, but it can show you the way and then you can walk through it.

Lachlan Stuart: 55:37

Love it. I wanted to ask you one final. I was actually going to ask you to share one final story I saw on your Instagram about doing psychedelics with your nephew. It was an incredible story and a great one to finish on.

Matt Zemon: 55:50

Sure, I'm a fan. I love multi-generational psychedelics, so I love it when parents do it with their kids, when fathers do it with their sons. Yeah, we had an 80-year-old person in a 50-something-year-old son in a recent retreat and we've had younger people with younger sons. I had the really good fortune of experiencing a journey with my 21-year-old nephew and it was beautiful on so many levels because, again, you're in group ceremony and we're all going through our things and working through our processes and watching him go through his process. I realized that as an uncle, I looked past him a thousand times in our relationship and just saw him as the kid. He's the kid at Thanksgiving, he's the kid at the table. I didn't see him as a man. I didn't see him as a fellow traveler. I didn't see him as someone who was working through all the things he was working through and that day or those days because it was a multi-day I saw it and he worked hard on his journey and we were able to connect and have really deep conversation and conversation that we never would have had it not been for the space to be opened up. Yeah, and it's beautiful and it was a great reminder that our kids are not us. Our nephews are not us. They're their own animals. They come through us, but they're not us, and we can try to control them, but we weren't able to be controlled.

Matt Zemon: 57:32

Why do we think we're going to be able to control them? And is that really our role? Or is our role to give them love and support? And if they ask yeah, in my experience, this is where I hit the rocks. Maybe you'll hit those rocks, maybe you won't. In my experience, if you do these things, these types of things happen, but we all have, at least for me. I wasn't super happy. It wasn't clear sailing. So what do I really know? What is the advice I really can give other than you're loved. You're always going to be loved, you can't fail and I'm here for you.

Lachlan Stuart: 58:14

It's a beautiful story and an experience. I'm sure it would have been as well. When you're saying that 80 year old with a 50 year old, I'm like I'm going to try and get my dad into it.

Matt Zemon: 58:24

There we go.

Lachlan Stuart: 58:25

It's interesting that because we're moving to America, on 10 weeks away, we're moving over. Oh my gosh, yeah, which is going to be amazing.

Matt Zemon: 58:33

So where are you?

Lachlan Stuart: 58:33

moving Nashville.

Matt Zemon: 58:35

Oh, my goodness. Okay, not too far from here, eight hours from my house. When are you moving?

Lachlan Stuart: 58:41

October 4th we fly out, so not too far. Vs is a 12 month process. It's tough. I thought Australia and Americans were allies, but it definitely makes it tough for us to get over there. But we got approved on Monday, so we're out of here heading over there, which would be awesome.

Matt Zemon: 58:58

And your parents are coming too.

Lachlan Stuart: 58:59

My parents aren't, but I'm going to. You know we'll fly them out every year, but my wife and my brother-in-law and sister-in-law, all that, the six of us. But it's going to be an awesome experience because I'll be able to link up with you now and give it an experience.

Matt Zemon: 59:15

There's a beautiful entheogenic church not too far from you, so be perfect. And Nashville, such an amazing city. If I was starting again, that is exactly the city I would pick.

Lachlan Stuart: 59:27

Yeah, it's a beautiful spot. We were there last year for a few weeks and my wife and I were like, yeah, this is where we're going to be. But, matt, where can people find you? You mentioned your website already and, for everyone listening, I'm going to give away a few copies of Matt's book. So if you first in best dress, I'll give away five. If you slide into my Instagram DMs so if you're watching on YouTube or wherever slide into my Instagram DMs. I will sort that out, but we'll give away a couple of copies of the books that are interested in that. I think it's worthwhile reading. But where else can people find you and Matt, or even order?

Matt Zemon: 1:00:02

their own copies of the book? Sure, so the book is available anywhere books are sold. There's also an audible version. There's a new psychedelic journal I just launched about a month ago called Beyond the Trip, which is for preparation and integration. So I highly recommend that if you're going to ceremony, or even if you're doing it in a medical model A lot of times the medical groups aren't spending the time on preparation and integration and you can take this journal and go work with your coach, like I'm like Lachlan. Linkedin and Instagram are probably the two other best places to see me. I'm on those pretty regularly and I do try to respond to. I might be slow, but I do respond to all messages and I'm here to answer questions and I want to be supportive. So feel free to reach out directly and if you're interested in like the church component that we were just talking about, reach out, let me know and we'll set up a time to talk.

Lachlan Stuart: 1:00:53

Sounds good. Matt, thank you so much for your time. It's been extremely valuable. You've answered so many questions that I had, and I'm sure a lot of other people had, and we also got a little deep dive on myself as well, so thank you for that experience.

Matt Zemon: 1:01:07

Lachlan, thank you, I really appreciate the work you're doing and it's super important that again, that men normalize these conversations, have these conversations and then we all become, we all make each other better through these conversations.