Exploring Deliberate Design and Its Impact on Brand Building, Happiness at Work, and Effective Communication #515

Have you ever thought about the power of deliberate design? Join us as we dive headfirst into an engrossing conversation with Kevin Finn. Together we explore the principles of brand building and the role of conscious design in shaping not just our businesses but our lives as well. Drawing inspiration from Edward de Bono's work, we explore how our choices echo in our health, relationships, and work, and the importance of self-care in the grand scheme of things.

We turn our attention to the concept of happiness at work and how it can be a catalyst for productivity. Kevin shares his unique insights on how infusing 'happiness works' into an organization's ethos can create a positive environment, coaxing out peak performance from employees. We then delve into the power of design thinking, how it challenges the norm, and the art of simplifying complexity - all aimed at enabling you to accomplish your desired outcomes.

To wrap up, we delve into the nitty-gritty of effective communication, the essence of simplifying a product or service to offer value, and the importance of controversy in gaining brand attention. 

We emphasize the role of diverse perspectives and the power of respectful disagreement. This episode is quite the roller coaster ride, filled with nuggets of wisdom from Kevin Finn, and practical advice that will leave you enlightened and inspired. 

Join us on this journey of discovery and design.

Chapters

• 0:03 Deliberate Design for Building Brands
• 6:58 The Power of Deliberate Design
• 11:57 Deliberate Design and Impact
• 23:06 Power of Happiness and Creative Thinking
• 29:11 Creating New Designs
• 37:51 Effective Communication and Simplifying Complexity
• 46:31 Brand Clarity and Controversy Importance
• 56:37 Informed Opinion, Respectful Disagreement
• 1:04:38 Appreciation for the Book and Guest

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

The man that Cam Project podcast, a podcast empowering queer driven men to live more fulfilling lives. We are here to challenge your beliefs, redefine success and talk about the important stuff in a relatable way. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review. My name's Lockies Stuart. Let's get into it. Welcome to episode 515 of the man that Cam Project podcast. My name's Lockies Stuart, and, as always, we're bringing you another unique and incredible guest, one that I've had the privilege of working with and being inspired by on a very, very regular basis. For those who are watching on YouTube, get his book right here. And for those who are following along on Instagram, you will see that we're giving away three signed copies of this book. Now. I read this book six months ago.

Speaker 2: 0:54

You're the first person I gave it to.

Speaker 1: 0:55

Yeah, I'm very grateful too, and then you've given it to Brad and a few other people, but the reason why I invited Kevin on the show was everything that I read through this. I was sitting there going. This is obviously awesome for my business. However, so many of the questions that you ask and I think questions are there, you know what help us get more of what we want out of our life and help us understand more of who we are. The questions that you were asking.

Speaker 1: 1:21

I was like I can put this into my own personal life, from relationships to health, to my purpose All things that a lot of people who listen to this show are looking to improve upon. I was like let's just pull some of these chapters apart and see what happens Now. Kev, you've got a wealth of experience been in the industry for 30 odd years. Yeah, you know, for people who want to go check out his Instagram, all the links will be in the show notes at the end. Definitely go do that. There's some brilliant YouTube videos as well on branding and brand principles and marketing and just everything.

Speaker 1: 1:53

But I am very honored to have you here today and I look forward to diving into a few of these chapters Now, some ones that we're going to cover, but don't hold us too accountable if we don't get there, if we go off on a segue. But design is deliberate. That can transfer into designing your life is deliberate. Brand principles in action. Now we've got five brand principles here that we'll play with six deceptively difficult questions. Now I want to get these questions out to you and I hope that you write them out throughout this show because and use them in your own life, and some of them are very confronting and we'll dive into that in a moment. But I do want to start with who the book's dedicated to. It's beautiful. I did have the page folder, but now I've lost it.

Speaker 1: 2:37

Here we go, there we go. There's also a little note to me in the front, but I won't read that for everyone. So my son, who helps me see the world through the curiosity of a child, who challenges and teaches me every day, who reminds me to keep things simple and to follow my heart, and who is forever showing me the importance of a brighter future, illian man, how does it feel having all the intellectual knowledge that you have amassed over the years into one well-written book?

Speaker 2: 3:08

I'm relieved. Yeah, it would be. Yeah, look, there's a couple of things on that. Number one it took three years to write it. I've been kicking around these 15 brand principles since 2003. And when I thought about writing it as a book, I thought I'll be done in six months because I bring it in my design practice. I'm talking about it every day. I have really really meaningful long conversations with business owners. So I thought six months. It took three years to just write it and it took another year and a half to just get the partnership with Booktopia to get it published, to do the final printer, to get everything organized. So four and a half years in total. So when I say it's a relief, it's like, oh man, I was working on this for a long time, but that dedication that you read out.

Speaker 2: 4:10

There's three main reasons that I wrote the book. One was for business owners. I'm surprised and thrilled that it is resonated with the design community and designers. But I wrote it for business owners because I thought I've had the benefit of, like many others, 30 years of having conversations with business owners. So what have I learned? What are the patterns that I could then just hopefully translate over to business owners to help them. The second reason I wrote it was because I was trying to debunk this myth that designers build brands. We have a lot of people in my field who go out and they sort of mark themselves as are we build brands or we create brands. And I was saying that's not true, because it's business owners and staff and customers who build brands and as designers, we have a role to play. It's an important one, but we don't build brands. And also there was this myth around if you've got a logo, you've got a brand.

Speaker 1: 5:10

So I want to demystify that.

Speaker 2: 5:13

But the third reason, which goes to reading out the dedication, was in doing the book. The reason why it took longer than I thought was I started to delve into where brands in 21st century are heading, what the future looks like, and it just kept reminding me that this is my son's future, it's his generation's future and businesses and brands have a huge role to play in what that's going to look like for my son. So the dedication not only was he, inspires me every day, it was. This is really about where the future is going to head, and I'm not saying I've written about the future, predicting it, but all the patterns, all the signals are heading in this direction and it has a big impact on the next generation.

Speaker 1: 6:01

And the beautiful thing is you've taken so long to carefully think about this, using past experiences but also thinking about the future, which I think is important, an important skill set and principle for life. And when we then think about being deliberate, you've written here on the chapter and I love this and this will tie into where we're going next. But for businesses, so obviously, chapter which is designers deliberate and you got this from I'll read the very first part In one of my conversations with the late Dr Edward De Bono, he provided me with the best definition of design I've ever heard, one that I subscribe to and abide by to this day design is deliberate and that's powerful. And then you wrote later on in the chapter, early on in the chapter, for businesses that have successfully become brands, they've done so deliberately, by focusing on aligning their purpose and value proposition with the needs and desires of their customers. Now for me, when I was reading that, I was like okay, well, purpose value, what's my purpose? What value do I have to offer and how can I then position that in my environment? And I thought about that.

Speaker 1: 7:11

Many people the question they're asking themselves is what is my purpose? It's a very big buzzword at the moment and I thought, okay, well, maybe I could start with what value do I have to offer and to what community do I want to do? I want to, I guess, put that in and then I can define my purpose base of that. Because for some people I guess I want to break this down For some people it can be very overwhelming because you don't have self-esteem, or so you don't think you have much to offer, which I didn't In the beginning.

Speaker 1: 7:40

That's how I thought about myself, but I attached myself where I subscribed to my purposes to make a million dollars. That was all I needed at that point, because I gave myself something to work towards, something that I felt was bigger than myself. I learned a lot along the way I grew. I surrounded myself with highly people who are where I wanted to be, and it made me recognize my value because I was upskilling. That was very deliberate. Prior to that, I was just sort of like a bit of tumbleweed blowing down a desert track, and I guess I want to unpack this with you a bit more. A question that you wrote is what do I need to achieve and what must sorry, what must I do to achieve that?

Speaker 2: 8:21

Very simple, very powerful, yeah yeah, well, it was interesting because, for those who don't know Edward de Bono, he's the guy who sort of coined the phrase lateral thinking, among many others, but he spent 50 years in his professional practice he's a doctor of neurology, I think, and he was trying to teach thinking as a skill. So he was like there's a myth out there that we're not creative, we're born creative. We've got to find creative people who do creative things for us. And he said that's ridiculous. We all have creativity. Some do it professionally and others just do it every day. And he said but you can actually think. You can teach thinking as a skill. So in my conversations with Edward I was saying you know how do you define design?

Speaker 2: 9:19

And I was expecting this really kind of thought provoking long and the interesting thing is it was thought provoking and profound in its simplest form. And why I think it's incredible is that when he said those three words, design is deliberate. It doesn't have creativity in there, or artistry or vision, or it's a very practical breakdown, which I think is profound, because that's applicable to anything. And, as I say in the book, whether you're designing a logo or a business, or a fitness program, or an app, or a city or an economy, you're taking deliberate steps to an outcome. So those two things what am I trying to achieve and how do I get there? And when we're going through the design process, if you're saying I'm going to create a fitness program for Sarah or I'm going to create a business model for Sam and her business, we will look deliberately at what the context is, we will look at the challenges and the opportunities and we will take very deliberate steps to an outcome that we have previously defined. That doesn't mean we're going to get to that specific one, but it's a direction. We say that's where you want to head and around that we can shift and pivot and adapt. It's what I call the difference between creativity, which is fearlessly inventive, and strategy, which is sort of a long-term goal of where you want to head to. And then tactics are the deliberate steps we take to get there. And when we look at those three things together, deliberately, we start to just totally change how we're approaching things.

Speaker 2: 11:06

And I guess the thing for our viewers and listeners is probably to consider is that we do a lot of things deliberately, but they're subconscious. What we're talking about here, and what Edward is talking about, is when we do them consciously, like you just described. You consciously said this is what I want to do and here's how I'm going to get there. It can change, but I have a plan and it's deliberate. That, as a conscious act, is how design can be translated into a creative act, like doing a logo or a website, through to designing a business, through to anything we do. And I love that about design because it makes it democratic, it makes it accessible and it makes it, from my point of view, really clearly understood as to how we can implement design in any situation.

Speaker 1: 11:57

When we think about intent. I know for a long while I guess I had it linked with manipulation to a degree, because I was like, okay, if I want to be intentional with how I would love my relationship to be, could that come across as manipulating? The same with and I've thought about this and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it Someone were to think you know that's manipulating or you're over thinking things. What are your thoughts about that?

Speaker 2: 12:26

Well, I mean, put simply, if we're manipulating a situation, we're doing it deliberately.

Speaker 2: 12:36

That's because we're thinking this is the outcome that I want to engineer and I will deliberately get there. So you know, if we're talking about design and being deliberate, it's a tool. It can be used for good or not good. So what we say here, and what Edward is talking about, is when we're trying to design for an outcome, we're doing it deliberately and we should be doing it consciously. Now, if we start to say I'm deliberately trying to create an outcome that I want to work towards, that I will benefit from and others may or may not, but at least I'll benefit from. Well, then that starts to. And if we're doing it consciously, that starts to hopefully bring in our values and ethics and start to say, well, if I'm deliberately designing something for an outcome that will only benefit me, or I'm only going to look at the benefits that I'm happy with selectively for other people, I'm not going to ignore maybe some of the collateral damage it could create Well, then that becomes a values and ethics conversation not a design conversation.

Speaker 2: 13:48

But when you are doing it deliberately and doing it consciously, it should automatically bring into that sort of process what else is happening here, what else are we doing, what else am I trying to achieve and how am I going to achieve this and who else will benefit. And that comes back to or doesn't come back to. It comes to. What we'll probably talk about later is what I talk about impact.

Speaker 1: 14:13

Yes.

Speaker 2: 14:14

And a lot of people talk about impact and they say the impact that I want is on this thing or this situation or this community. And I look at impact differently and we'll use this design as deliberate analogy. So when I talk about impact, I talk about dropping a pebble into water and the immediate impact that first ripple is who we intended to. So let's say it was you know in your analogy what I want to get out of this and there's my impact. Wow, cool. But when we start to look at it consciously, what happens in the next ripple and the next ripple and the next ripple and we need to be thinking about that deliberately and how we design anything that we do, because that draws into the process what is the impact of the outcome that I'm seeking for myself and who else may benefit or not? Yeah, it gets a bit deep.

Speaker 1: 15:13

I think it's awesome to talk about it. This is why I really, really encourage everyone who's listening to read this book and not just because I've been telling people to read it before we've had this conversation because it breaks all of these things that I believe, or I've been thinking about a lot and you've just given me more questions to ponder, so to speak. But that metaphor you gave, where it's the pebble in the water, and then the ripple effect of what does X impact, or how does X impact Y, for example, I think about. So we look at like three buckets. We've got six areas of where we want to help with health, but I believe, because predominantly, men will want to be the protector and provider, so they go all in with their career and I've been guilty of that but the sacrifice that they don't consider until it's too late is their relationship and is their health.

Speaker 1: 16:03

Now, when you're not feeling healthy meaning energy, or you're not feeling strong and confident, and who you are, mentally strong and confident, that impacts your mood. Which impacts, you know if, your mood when you go home to your partner or to your children, how do you think they feel about that? Same with you know, then, the impact of not having a very happy home. Life impacts your work and it's all connected. So that ripple effect and bringing it back to, I guess, the first point in that of design is deliberate. I always believe in starting with how I need to be. You do the exact same thing. You're very, very deliberate and very, very consistent in so many things that you do in your life and I've had the benefit of watching that. But for an individual, how do you need to show up or how do you need to look after yourself so that you are the best in business, the best in your relationships in life?

Speaker 2: 16:51

Yeah, and the kind of it's not rocket science in a way, but we find it so hard. It's all connected, right as you say, and I think that for me it's taken me a while to and there's a specific kind of way that I got here. But I'll talk about it. I have to look at it and I have to say to myself if I'm not healthy, then how can I show up every day for my son, who needs me, and I want to be here for him, and you know my wife and everyone and my friends. So I need to be healthy and that's not I need to be an absolute fanatic, militant health nut. So no, I just need to be healthy as I can. So I deliberately design into my day a gym session, not because I have to fit it in. So no, that is part of my work, because I'm working on myself.

Speaker 2: 17:52

So, my working day includes gym time, that is working on myself so I can perform in everything else in my life. That's kind of part of how I look at health. The other thing is that when I'm looking at work I say we can get really fanatical about it, we can get obsessed about it and we can get consumed with it. And I said to myself and I had to get here, transition to this and say just a very shallow kind of way of looking at the world, because it's very one-dimensional kind of monoculture, it's just work. And yes, we can say, but we're providing and we show up and we love it and we've got passion and I say, yeah, but what else is going on?

Speaker 2: 18:35

So for me I deliberately design into my day time with my son. I do all the pickups, I do all the drop-offs, I go to all of the after-school kind of events and things, because I want to be there for my son and I want to be there to see him grow up and to be his biggest cheerleader. So for me I design my day deliberately that my working day is a full day, but my job, my kind of practice, is about five or six hours and then I've got an hour and a half in the gym and I've got other time if my son needs me.

Speaker 1: 19:12

Not always.

Speaker 2: 19:12

If he does, I'm available, if he doesn't, I keep working. But I stop at six or earlier, like I'll stop at three if I've got to pick up my son from school. I can come back and work a bit more, but I'll stop at five, five thirty. And it's rare I work in the weekends, and there's reason for that, because I'm then not burnt out. And why do I only work four, five, six hours a day? Is that I can make decisions quicker, because I'm not burnt out, I'm not tired, I'm not like feeling like a sick grind. It's something that I really enjoy doing because I've got other things in my day which I've deliberately designed.

Speaker 1: 19:51

And for those who are listening who maybe don't have the, you know, if you are working for someone and you don't have as much control over your hours, my thought process would be then be deliberate with your design. If that's not fitting with your lifestyle, maybe look at other options for yourself, rather than just staying stuck, because a lot of people do just go. This is it. I accept that, poor me.

Speaker 2: 20:14

And there's nothing wrong with saying to, and that's a really good point. If you're working for somebody or you're working in a company and I'm lucky enough to be in control of how I use my time, there's nothing wrong with going to your boss or your seniors and saying I would like to be working 9 to 5 or 9 to 6, because I don't want to get burnt out and I want to be here showing up every day to do my absolute best. And that can only happen if I've got downtime and a social life and a healthy kind of I wouldn't say routine as such, but routine is good. But if you've got a sense that I want to be able to go to the gym in the morning or in the evenings, whatever suits you, and if you have a very specific view on this, if you're working in company and your boss is saying you need to be here at 8, you need to leave at 8. My advice would be look for another job.

Speaker 1: 21:15

It's funny. Gadi, who I had on the podcast on Saturday, said the exact same thing, yeah, yeah. Because for his employees, he's a bit more flexible, as I, johnny, for example, wants to do his school drop-offs and pick-ups, so that's how he does things and I'm accommodating with that because I know if he's being fulfilled in that way, he's going to perform better in the workplace, which is important. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 21:36

Yeah, it's funny. Two very quick stories here. One is when I used to work in Sydney. I was working in Satchi and Satchi part of the big global advertising network, and I was the joint career director of the design team and we had a policy. You know what work you have to do, doesn't?

Speaker 2: 21:57

This is pre-COVID, this is in the early 2000s. You know what work you have to do. Come in whenever you want, leave whenever you want, as long as you get the work done, and if you need help, put your hand up. That was our policy. Simple, that was policy. Guess what happened? Everyone showed up at 9 and left at 6 because they said I want to be around everyone and I want to put my hand up, I want to be with you and talk to you directly. And, okay, post-covid, that can happen remotely now. But the interesting thing that we found I saw was that when you this is back to deliberate design you can't design culture, but you can design the circumstances for culture to thrive. And we designed a sort of a. The context for people to be as free with their time as they wanted to, with a work ethic was get the work done and with the support that were here if you need us. And they showed up on a regular day work. They weren't saying I'll come in at 12 and leave at 3. Yeah, and we thought, no, they were in and then we all enjoyed it.

Speaker 2: 23:06

The second thing is when I left Satchez, I was doing an identity for a recruitment agency in Dublin. Yeah, this is when we were living in the top end of Western Australia, in East Kimberly, and they were going the traditional route of how do you promote a recruitment company the best jobs, the best listings, and, and I struck me, I went you know what your positioning, your whole message, should be two words. The company is called prosperity, so that kind of gave a sense of we want everyone to prosper. But I said, your positioning, your whole mindset, your attitude, should be two words Happiness works. So when people are happy, they're going to work. When people leave a job, they're either unhappy or circumstances mean they have to leave. But they might be really upset that they have to leave, because I love it here. When people are happy and they're working, the company is more productive, the employer has more productive staff. So this sort of old school 20th century dictatorship ruling of a company on the boss, you're the.

Speaker 2: 24:17

You work for me, you do as I say, yeah, no that's gone, because when people are really happy it just explodes in productivity. So that's kind of what underpins the book, because for listeners and viewers there are no real answers in the book, because it is more about a mindset and an approach, and that mindset and an approach can be applied in something as simple as two words for an organization. They ended up having those two words embedded in their DNA Happiness works.

Speaker 2: 24:49

They used to say Mondays we love, and they would get CEOs of organizations and companies in every week on kind of a podcast sort of style, and talk about how happiness is embedded in their company and how productive it can, what the value of that is. So they embrace those two words because, as you say, if you're in a company that they are pushing you to work ridiculous hours and not paying you perhaps, or you're just getting burnt out or hating it, it's time to look somewhere else.

Speaker 1: 25:22

That's why we really, or I try to instill in our members within our community to do it for today, do something today to be better for tomorrow because it's okay.

Speaker 1: 25:33

It might be that daily deposit in your relationship today because so many people an example could be their wife's just walked down on them. They'll go okay, I need help with this. How do I get it back? We'll talk about it, but chances are it's been happening for the last X amount of years because you haven't been invested in it. You become complacent, I think, when you think about the overall intent and what we're all here to do.

Speaker 1: 25:54

We're very fortunate. We love what we do from a career standpoint. We're also both very aware of how much time our relationships need and what we want to give and receive in that situation. Same with health give and receive. I know that I'm doing that now. I do love feeling fit and confident. I love crushing some weight every now and then or running 5Ks, but I'm also thinking about how things are going to be when I'm 80. Career may or probably won't be the focus, but my relationships will be my health, to look after grandkids or to be able to have awesome adventures. That starts with that design point. One other thing in that chapter that I quickly want to touch on as well was a question. Never read anything like this or thought about this because I've just been like I'll wait for someone else to do it. How do I need to think to produce something that is not yet here?

Speaker 2: 26:50

That is out of the box. You know what? Just in what we were talking about earlier, about all things we have to consider and juggle, and it can sound overwhelming, but it goes back to this mindset. It's like I don't need to have all my time, energy in one box, which is work, or in my relationship and my work suffers. You just need to look at it and say balance. It's not rocket science, balance when it comes to creating something that wasn't there before. That was the other part of my conversation with Edward de Bono, because we were talking about creativity and design and he was saying well, there's a chapter in the book about two types of thinking Analytical thinking and design thinking, or creative thinking.

Speaker 2: 27:39

Critical thinking is always looking at what has been there. You're analyzing data, you're analyzing what has been created, you're analyzing the past to this point today, because it's there, it is in existence and you can look at it and you can assess it and compare and contrast. That Creativity and design is what can be. What if what isn't there? What can we create that is new or different? Again, that might sound overwhelming, but when you look at anything in the world that has been redesigned, they usually say this is what's in existence. We can improve it. That's a redesign and that wasn't there before, because you're improving on what was there. That's another thing about. There's a great section in the book on hacking. We think hacking is like some dude in a hoodie, in a shark and face taking it down.

Speaker 2: 28:41

The next corporate victim. Hacking is a really creative way to explore how we can create something that wasn't there before, by either taking things that are in existence and merging them into something new. Taking something that's in existence and saying how can I improve that to it becoming something new, or, in some cases, just going, wow, let's just create something totally out of the box. That doesn't happen as often as we think. If we look at some of the best big watershed moments in culture and business and technology let's look at the iPhone I was like ooh, that wasn't the first, it's just the best. Yes, let's stick with Apple. The iPod that wasn't the first MP3 player, it's just the best.

Speaker 2: 29:31

That was them saying how do we create something that is in existence but improve the experience, improve the technology, improve whatever it might be, and then you're creating new. With that in mind, we have to be humble and say, when we're creating something new, it could be a tweak, it could be a sort of adaptation, it could be observing patterns that are in other areas and pulling them together Wonderful, but we're standing on the shoulders of giants. We're looking at what happened previously and making something that progresses us all forward or progresses the community forward. So, again, this act of designing something new doesn't need to be overwhelming. It's a mindset, it's an approach that we say can this be better than it is? Can we challenge the status quo? Can we add value? We're designing something new.

Speaker 1: 30:33

And for the process of doing that it requires the skill of thinking, as we were talking about in the very beginning thinking and also communication, two skill sets that we don't really intentionally do.

Speaker 2: 30:48

Well, there's a again, and we talk about in the book is that there's one thing to have this great vision and to see the future in a really inspiring way, and that's great. The big part of that is to bring people with you. And how do you bring people with you? You communicate it, you make it compelling, you make it understood, you make it, you know they can see the benefit in it for themselves. And that's all communication. It's all about that. There's a way I talk about this and we are kind of going off.

Speaker 2: 31:24

That's perfect, but it's relevant Is that businesses go out into the world, brands go out into the world and they tell their story. We are an amazing company. We are so innovative and we're so progressive. We've got heritage and legacy and we've been around for a hundred years and we do this and we do that and that's our story and it's important and it's wonderful.

Speaker 2: 31:47

People give shit, they go, and and the reason why is that people don't really care about your story. They only care about where your story shows up and their story, and that's when communication comes into it. That's when you say we've got this incredible new design thing or this new value that we want to offer to you. And it's important to you because here's what shows up in your life and that means you need to understand their world. As a customer or a community, you need to see where what you are bringing into the world is going to impact them positively and they're going to see relevance in that and they're going to transact with you and they go. This is cool because I understand it, it's relevant to me and I know where your story shows up and my story. I'm going to transact. If it's I've got this stuff, you should buy it because I want your money. It's direct.

Speaker 1: 32:45

But you see that sort of communication.

Speaker 2: 32:48

It's one in the delivery, and a lot of people then start talking about, oh yeah, marketing spin. But you get caught out on that Correct, particularly these days. So I think when you go and say here's where our story shows up in your story, and our story doesn't take up your entire life, when you wake up, when you go to sleep, it only takes up here. But that's important and we would like you to consider that us other competitors, because we think we can do that really well, because we've either adapted it or we've created something new, or we've hacked it into something more interesting for you or it's very relevant to you. And I say we don't need to have everyone as our customers. We probably want a certain kind of everyone. That's who we're looking for.

Speaker 1: 33:32

I think that's very relevant for finding out who you want to spend time with in your life as well. You mentioned the value that you can get from people or talking to a specific audience. It's much like when I shifted my social circle based on not people who I've always been around just because that's comfortable, but more around people who were going in the direction or had results and outcomes that I was looking for. I then got to start thinking in a way that they thought.

Speaker 1: 34:03

I got to watch their behaviors, I got to think about questions that they were asking themselves, and it helped me create a more compelling future, one that motivated me, one that excited me, and I think that's a good point. To add on that, and that's obviously one of the six deceptively difficult questions, as well as like one, oh sorry, two. Point two so who are you talking to? Point three is what are you saying? And point four what channels are you using? Where are they hanging?

Speaker 2: 34:28

out. Yeah, well, a couple of things on that. The first is that it's really important for us to be I'm not saying you're doing this, but it's important for us to not kind of go I'm going to dump these people because they're not going where I'm going. I'm only going to hang out with the people that are not going where I'm going. I think the way we think about it is we gravitate towards kindred spirits and over time some people in our life might be heading on a different path and we might love them the bits, but we just drift apart because they're going one way, we're going the other way. It doesn't mean that we've dropped them or anything. It just means that we gravitate to those kindred spirits, and they'll be. I think a healthy social network is when not everyone's heading the same direction.

Speaker 2: 35:10

You are, but there's enough people who keep you grounded and we'll connect with them on common ground, shared values, you know, circumstances, whatever it is, but again, deliberately singling out certain people who you can learn from and adapt towards and say right now in my life, that's a kindred spirit that I want to gravitate towards a bit more at the moment versus I'm going to get rid of everyone else because they're not in that camp.

Speaker 1: 35:38

I put my hand up. I did do that in 2014, 2015.

Speaker 1: 35:42

It was the first time I'd been exposed to this personal development and I was boy. I believed I was growing at such a rapid rate. I was so excited by all the things that I was learning and the changes that I was making. I was like I'm better than everyone. If you're not on this journey with me, bugger off. And unfortunately, I did cut a lot of people out and I learned I think it was around 2016. I was like man, I don't have any friends anymore. Everyone's gone.

Speaker 2: 36:07

Well, the people he had left were acquaintances, correct?

Speaker 1: 36:11

And Jim Rohn said at Best Race, there will be people that you need to completely disassociate or remove from your life because they only bring yeah, they're toxic or they're negative.

Speaker 1: 36:20

Correct. That's once again. That can be hard to do because they may have been age old friends. The second is the distance, and not because you're better or worse. It's just at the moment you want to prioritize time over here, and it's for whatever reason. And then there's the enhancement. Yeah, who are the people and I love what you said where it shouldn't all be the same kind of people, the same way of thinking, because you do need to be challenged, but you also need a break.

Speaker 2: 36:43

Yeah, and you need to be grounded by people who you just say you know what? Every time I see you're the kindest person around and it's just this unconditional kindness that is a real injection in my day. Oh, you smile, yep, and I say, oh, jesus, bring light into my life, yep, and you're doing something completely different and I'm on a different path. But what you bring into my day to day cannot be matched by these other people that I've got that are going in a certain way, yep. So that's kind of, I think, something to be mindful of. And this, back to the questions, is. I'll run through the six questions because they get us into that Beautiful. So the first question and I ask the business that I work with and also just people who were talking about how to position ourselves, I guess one what value do you provide? That's a very difficult question to answer because it's not value for money. What is it that you're going to bring to someone's life or their business that they really go? Yeah, I can't get this anywhere else, or I can't get it the way you give it to me anywhere else. That's the first question what value do you provide? Secondly, who are you talking to? People say everyone, because they want to have a wide market. And I say awesome. So you're speaking to three-year-olds and 96-year-olds and they go, of course not. So not everyone. So who are you talking to? Be specific, not demographics what kind of person are you talking to? Are they progressive? Are they traditional? Are they conservative? Are they innovative? What kind of person? Third, what are you saying? If you know who the kind of person or your customer might be, what are you telling them? So what's your message to them?

Speaker 2: 38:29

Number four what channels do you use? So where do they hang out? What do they like to read? What do they like to listen to? Where do they go to get their information? Or where do they go, how do they like to receive information? And the thing I always like to say to them is you might say oh, channels we use. We use our EDMs and events. You go great. Have you asked them if that's how they like to get their information? Because if they like it somewhere else, that's the wrong channel or you need to add a channel. So what channels you use isn't like we use some full stop. It's what are you using and are they the ones that these people like to use?

Speaker 2: 39:15

The fifth question is is where ego comes in. We say can you live up to it? I go, of course, doing this for years. Okay, where's the proof? So, if you can live up to what you say in the value provide, where is the proof that you can live up to what you say?

Speaker 2: 39:31

And then the last question, number six, is the toughest one, as the one that usually is like a punch in the face for people. It's so in. You've told me what value you provide. You told me who you're talking to. You told me what message you're giving them. You told me what channels are using great. You told me you can live up to it awesome. Why should anyone care? That was the one that got me.

Speaker 2: 39:57

So if you shut down tomorrow, would you be missed. And what's interesting about these six questions isn't like that's just a. You gotta answer these questions and figure it out, and you gotta you know they care about you. The answer to sec, the answer to question six, should be the same question. Answer the question one what value do you provide? Because if you're providing real value and you shut down tomorrow, you'll be missed If the value that you provide in your customer or your community or your market is so valuable and so relevant to them and so specific to the world that they operate within and you shut down tomorrow, you would be missed and they might be able to find a competitor or an alternative.

Speaker 2: 40:46

But you'd be missed and people care because the value you provide Go. So the people you've identified Are your customer. They know what you're telling them. It's clear You're reaching them in the ways they like to be reached and they understand how they can be reached. You live up to it in their mind, not in your mind. In their mind, and if you stopped you'd be missed. That's why those six questions are a little feedback loop and I would recommend you do those a few times. And we have a. There's an example in the book of a hypothetical. You could run it through and see the differences.

Speaker 1: 41:30

I loved that example, but those the question number one and six took me back to when I mentioned I wanted to earn a million bucks.

Speaker 1: 41:37

That was now my purpose that I decided on, and I recognized very quickly that I didn't have people in my circle of influence who'd Aren't that much money. So I was like, how do I even do that? Is that possible? Yep, and when I was like, okay, I need to hang out with millionaires, I then thought about that what value do I have to provide them? Bugger, all like I don't even like hanging out with myself currently.

Speaker 1: 41:59

I didn't like who I was at that point in time so rather than sort of dwelling on that and go and that's never going to happen.

Speaker 2: 42:04

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:05

I pretty much asked myself what value do I provide and what value can I offer them?

Speaker 1: 42:09

And that's when I got to work I said it as I mentioned, that Hardcore journey of understanding who I was, what value I can provide, and it started happening. I'm clear on who I was talking to, what I was saying, the channels that I was using. Can I live up to it? I was practically. I still do practice what I preach. I don't try and Be anything else, and we'll talk about this as well why brand is more than just a yeah it's.

Speaker 1: 42:31

It's so much more than that and ties into anything else. And why should anyone care for me that question? When I was reading the book a couple of months ago, I was like man, that's, that's that's deep, because a lot of people and data shows around mental health issues and Challenges like that. A lot of people don't think people care about them.

Speaker 2: 42:51

Yeah, but they.

Speaker 1: 42:51

They don't ever bring it back and circle it back around. It's like they don't feel like they have value. Everyone has value, yeah, yeah. What needs to shift is your belief on yourself, yeah, the perceptions on how you see yourself, yeah, and that's a skill set To develop in itself.

Speaker 2: 43:05

And what's, what's kind of cool about those six questions is that when you say, you know, do I matter? Or why should I care about me? It's really.

Speaker 2: 43:15

Ego, it's, it's arrogance, it's doubt, it's imposter syndrome I get. You get caught up in that sort of Hamster wheel of just oh god, I've got to push through and what? Why this, these questions work. Is that you can actually Stop thinking about that and just go back to question one and say, if I just focus on the value I provide, whether people care or not will take care of itself. I don't need to be stuck in that. I just need to be over here in the value if I want to actually just think about how can I show up in people's lives, how can I add value to what they're doing? Whether they miss me or not is up to them, not me, correct? I just have to try to get as much value so it actually takes that pressure off of Having to be, you know, really important and people have to care I'll be missed and eating all the validation.

Speaker 2: 44:04

Yeah, it's like. No, no, just just go to question one. Question six will take care of itself. So that's why those six questions actually Help. Just one communicate and structure how that might be. But two takes the pressure off and at the same time reminds you of how important the answer, question one, is and two of the most undervalued Skills is communication.

Speaker 1: 44:26

Yeah, and thinking, or even three, and listening. Well, yeah, yeah. So if you want to just surpass so many people, go, you know, google. Yeah, how can I improve my communication? Or how can I learn to think better? Or how can I read this book or read how to win friends and influence people? And just start there and start practicing that with your mom or your buddies or your Siblings.

Speaker 2: 44:49

That whole listening thing is really interesting. There's a. There's a. Really I found it kind of a shallow way of thinking about it, but it's a really clear way of thinking about it is I can't breathe. Was but some Millionaire, billionaire person and they said you know so, how did you become so wealthy? And he said I asked people what they wanted and I gave it to them. That's it. I listened, I Looked at what they were looking for. I created value that was relevant. This is the long answer. I created value for what they're looking for and then I promoted it and communicated through the channels that they Could see it, because you've got to be visible. And they went oh, that's interesting. And then they bought it and then you that they wanted it and then all of a sudden he became a billionaire.

Speaker 1: 45:31

Why do we over complicate things? Well?

Speaker 2: 45:34

there's a, there's a another Chapter on simplicity in the book. We over complicate things because we think that when something is simple it's lacking. So we, over time, we add complexity to make it sound more, more kind of thoughtful, or make it sound more Deep or and and I think that simplicity is so undervalued and it's important is, you know, underrated that we need to sort of go If this can be really simple, people can grasp it or they can interact with it. One of the greatest things about the iPhone was not necessarily because it was simple, because another sort of definition of simple is intuitive, so it's intuitive. That is a version of simplicity.

Speaker 2: 46:26

So Simplicity isn't let's make it simplistic and dumb it down. Simplicity is how do we keep the essence and remove the friction? So we can take that billionaire's comment I asked people what they want and I gave it to them and that's it simple. But within that you can dig into it and say there's a lot of things happening under that listening and research and Trialing what, whatever they created to get to that community and those customers that they, then how they see it, and so that that's really kind of a I wouldn't say complex, but it's a very involved process, but at the top. You need to be that clear. This is what we're gonna do, this is how we're gonna do it, and part of it is listening and communication and thinking through what is involved and having that mindset underneath it that says we need to adapt as we go, as we listen and as we learn, and then we can get what they want and then they'll buy it.

Speaker 2: 47:33

Buying stuff for the sake of it is like you know, widgets goes back to value, because a value could be an experience, not a product. The value could be an education. You know, value starts to open things up into areas that are much wider and much deeper, and that comes from listening and communicating.

Speaker 1: 47:56

Very well said. Take that one away everyone. It's a beautiful part. Let's talk about some brand principles in action. A brand is the most valuable real estate in the world. Why?

Speaker 2: 48:08

Well, it will do a little exercise here for our listeners and our viewers that think of a brand that you really, really know, you're very aware of what they do, or the product or service, but it has to be a brand that you are not a customer of and you never liked it to be so, for example. Maybe you're thinking yourself.

Speaker 1: 48:31

I was thinking of Nike straight away.

Speaker 2: 48:33

Yeah. But let's say, people out there might say I don't eat fast food, but I know McDonald's, Right, so that's a good example. Or I know Apple, but I'm a PC person. I never go out.

Speaker 2: 48:46

I'm Android right, so just think of something that you really know well and you would never be a customer of. That goes to brand principle number one, which is a brand is the most really important valuable real estate in the world, a corner of someone's mind and a relevant place in their life. So here you are you have a brand that you know, that you are not a customer of, and they're living rent free in your head Because you know about them.

Speaker 1: 49:14

You're aware of them.

Speaker 2: 49:16

You know enough about them to say they are the anthesis of who I am, but you still let them live in your head and part of that is they're in my head because I see them every day. There's some bombard I can't get away from them, for example, part of it could be I use them there as a benchmark for the industry, even though I don't like them and wouldn't be, but they're my benchmark. Part of it could be they're in my head because I absolutely hate them and they remind me every day of my ethics and values, whatever reason it might be. But that's all. Brand, because it's not just McDonald's A word, it's the experience, the food, the menu where they are. Everything that we know about them Is up here.

Speaker 2: 49:54

And that is interesting because when we're talking about brands, brand profile, brand awareness doesn't mean everyone's a customer. It means that you have a value, that people see you in society in a certain way as a benchmark or as a reference versus somebody else. And that is and I should be clear, they're not my words that a brand is the most valuable. Really say it in the world corner of someone's mind. That was coined by gentlemen Cole, sir John Higgardy, who's an English advertising legend. He's got a great book, a couple of books, and I got that in that book and I went. That's a really, really great way to explain to people that brand isn't just about customers. Brand is about awareness and that's why we let them live rent free in our head.

Speaker 1: 50:49

And the beautiful thing about that that I was just thinking of, as you were saying that even if they're thinking about you and you're not their cup of tea, for example, that's okay, because you know who your audience is.

Speaker 1: 51:00

You don't have to try and be some and people try to please everyone. We've got the people pleases and I don't really know who they are or what they stand for. It's a very confusing place to live. I lived there for a very long time and then, when I got very clear on my values and how I wanted to live my life, I guess the impact that I wanted to have I was like some people aren't going to like that, I'm okay with that.

Speaker 2: 51:21

Yeah, and actually you know you're in good company because Phil Knight, who founded Nike, he said you know it doesn't matter if there's a whole bunch of people who hate your brand, as long as enough people love it. Simple, once again. But what that says is the clarity behind what a brand means in someone's life, or the relevance or the reference it is. That clarity means that we can at least think about it. I love them, I hate them, whatever, I think one of the greatest threats to a brand is being absent minded, as in absent from our mind, because if we're not thinking about them, we're thinking about someone else.

Speaker 1: 52:06

Do you think that's why a lot of I wouldn't say brands, but like, let's say, social media influencers or even coaches, are quite controversial, because they want to sort of draw that line in the sand? You either hate me or you love me.

Speaker 2: 52:20

There's a couple of things going on there. I think that we have a culture right now which, unfortunately, is, if not rewarding, but definitely facilitating trolls. And people who are out there who are trying to act, controversy each other and that's a really kind of low base, but it's getting a lot of eyeballs mainly because of people like, yeah, or I hate you, but there's a lot of.

Speaker 1: 52:42

You don't have to think too much to get involved in that. You can just throw more bloody pickles at the window.

Speaker 2: 52:47

Yeah, I think that's going to be an interesting space to watch over the next sort of few years, because there's a big backlash on that now and there's some regulation coming in around that too, so that could change. But there's an old saying that all pure is good pure, and I think not really. I think that in today's day and age, with a hyper-connective, social media, shareable society we live in, it's very easy to paint yourself into a corner that if you do something controversial and you go, oh cool, we should keep doing that. Yeah, it becomes your brand. Yeah, then you can't be not that because. And then just dig deeper, even if you don't like it, because you go, that's my brand, now I've got to do it, and go, no, you have control over this. If you do it deliberately to shift, how would you shift? Go back to that question, number one what value do you provide? Don't be a troll, unless that's who you are.

Speaker 1: 53:49

Fine.

Speaker 2: 53:49

Joe Rogan go for your life. I don't know, but I think we'll use Nike again as an example. They did that amazing TV ad, dream Crazy, with Colin Kaepernick, and he took his knee, knelt down in the national anthem at one of the Super bars.

Speaker 2: 54:11

Yeah, which is very controversial. And Nike said we're going to do an ad called Dream Crazy and he's going to voice it over. And it was if you don't stand for something, believe in something, to sacrifice everything. That was controversial. And you might look at it and say Nike just jumped on the bandwagon and said let's just get eyeballs and be controversial, let's use Colin Kaepernick for our benefit. Well, behind the scenes number one Nike has been supporting African American athletes for decades, so that wasn't the jumping on the bandwagon thing. Two they had him as one of the sponsored athletes for two years prior. You haven't done anything with them. Three they said we can't let this pass. We have to do something. Even if we take a hit, we're going to have to do this. And sure enough, that ad went out.

Speaker 2: 55:09

People were on social media burning Nike apparel like throwing mud at Nike. It was a massive brand attack. And then there was another bunch of people who said good on you, we believe in that. And, as it turned out, nike sales rocketed, their market value rocketed because enough people said the stand that you took isn't controversial. It's being clear to us what you stand for and we believe in that. We're going to reward you.

Speaker 2: 55:45

And they then went on and supported Colin Kaplanik after his NFL team 49ers dropped them. They went on and did like he needed an income. We'll do a brand line with you. It's all that in a day. So Nike went all in regardless of what was happening. They knew it was going to come All of the trolling in the backlash because it was controversial. But if you do for the right reasons, if you do it to stand up to your values and your beliefs, then controversy can work. If you do it for the sake of it again designing deliberately your ideal outcome, yeah, if you say I just want eyeballs and I'll be controversial, but that's not who I am, it'll be who you become. But if you do it on your values and your beliefs, then it doesn't matter.

Speaker 1: 56:31

And it will always wear its head Like if that's not who you genuinely are, you'll see something.

Speaker 1: 56:37

I believe I listened to Joe Rogan, but then I always listened to like twos and froes because I believe a lot of conversations aren't happening and I think we're. In the beginning I just thought yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I was like I'm not challenging any of the conversations that have been had, or why I believe that. And I think one of the traps that I fell into was I wasn't asking enough questions around information that I was consuming. I was asking enough questions around stuff to support beliefs that I had.

Speaker 1: 57:04

And then I'd have conversations with people who had counter especially a lot on the podcast with different beliefs, and then I'm sitting there going, huh, never thought about that and I would never challenge them because I hadn't thought about. I don't like challenging people when I haven't thought about things enough. So now, when people ask me a lot about masculinity and all of these sort of topics based around men's health, there's a lot of them that I've never genuinely actually given enough thought or developed my own opinions because I'm like, well, that's not the land I'm running in at the moment. Yes, I understand, it falls under the banner of men's health.

Speaker 2: 57:36

However, Well, a good thing there is. You know, whatever information we get, it's like the social circle.

Speaker 2: 57:44

Yes having a diverse, social, whatever information we get, we should balance it out with. Can we validate that from other sources? Yes, and if we can validate it because, you're right, we have a tendency to find what we're looking for yes, if we're in the same box. But if we move into other boxes and say, let me see what they're saying, that we, the validator, challenge it and I then sort of say, well, everyone can have an opinion, that's easy. The trick is having an informed opinion, correct, and if we even informed opinion, that's analysis. We've analyzed as many different angles as we can to have an informed opinion that sits with our beliefs that we want to either challenge or champion.

Speaker 1: 58:31

And that's. It's once again hard to do and that's where I I in the beginning I would always throw out an opinion and not an informed opinion, and I learned from backlash and you know various other situations came from that I'm like, okay, well, where do I find the credible information? One thing I love podcast for as well is being able to listen to people who can respectfully debate.

Speaker 2: 58:56

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 58:57

Yeah, and they come from informed like it's their bread and butter, so then you can go. I never thought about that. That's a great question. Let me go look a little bit more, or I can appreciate that too. I think you're off the mark. Yeah, I feel like there's not enough public spaces where that happens with credible people which I wish it would because there's a lot of people, once again, who either, for example, listen to Joe Rogan or the flips or whatever that is that just hang on that side, which, once again, completely fine.

Speaker 2: 59:26

However start, yeah, start respectfully, as you say. Yeah, because I think we need to get back to a point where we can respectfully disagree, correct? Yeah, you're never going to always agree. We're not going to agree.

Speaker 1: 59:38

I was doing it yesterday at the park. I was like a lot of my families from the bush and I was out West last two weeks ago and I'm like how they view the world and everything that's going on at the moment is very, very different to how people where we are right now in the middle of Brisbane view the world, and I can appreciate and understand why they think that way. I can also understand and appreciate why people think this way, and I don't think the people out there are ever going to get you to think any different or made to think any different, and vice versa. Yeah, if we're not. We used to have villages and little townships and their way of doing things was okay and that was their way of doing things as long as you weren't.

Speaker 2: 1:00:21

And I think the key to that is kind of what you told me about. Is education Correct, Just being open to learning from different places? Because there's a really great conversation I had years ago with an incredible, very influential designer out of New York. I call Stephens Eggmaster and we're talking about globalization and there was a big pushback at the time around globalization. It was like homogenizing everything. And he said, yeah, well, I grew up in a small village in Austria and he said generations before me, girls were getting married at 14. So that had to change. So there's pros and cons to this sort of smaller village style thinking versus the global homogenized sort of thinking, and I think we just need to look as best we can with our values and our ethics and no other agenda and say can we get the best of this and hack it and deliberately design it forward to improve. That's, again, simple but very hard to do.

Speaker 1: 1:01:30

Yeah on scale, yeah on scale. It's once again. You've got those trolls and you've got everything else being thrown in and lack of the skills of communication, thinking, listening have not been developed by enough people to be able to.

Speaker 2: 1:01:44

Here's the thing, here's the thing. And for our listeners who might be thinking, yeah, we agree, solve a world and we can't do anything, we can have a view to change the world, and that's hard. And then we can say, well, if we can't change the world, can we change someone else's world. So can we positively impact somebody else's world? And if we can't do that yet, let's just change our own world and build up to it. So this whole idea of it's too hard. I'm just going to check out. I don't have an impact on this.

Speaker 2: 1:02:16

I think we do if we come back to ourselves again and say how do I want to show up in the world, how do I want to live, how do I want to impact other people? Because that has a knock on effect. That's contagious. And I always look at it and say, if we want to change the world, well, in that political sort of arena you say one vote at a time, but in our own world we say one act at a time, we can change our world, we can change other people's world. And then when you aggregate that, that might just go up a bit further. So this is the ripple effect again, you change your world.

Speaker 2: 1:02:54

Pebble drops change someone else's world the ripple Change someone in their world the ripple. So I believe that we are in a position right now in the world where it can look very overwhelming to change the status quo. So we just check out and go, oh, I can't. And we need to remember that we can change in small part what's happening in our life that may well have a ripple effect elsewhere, that I think that's something we need to get back to. We don't need to change the world, but we could help a whole bunch of people do it one act at a time.

Speaker 1: 1:03:31

Focus on what you can control, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:03:33

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:03:33

Kev, where can everyone find you? So on socials, where can people buy the book? Don't forget, we're giving away three books Everyone, so stay tuned on Instagram to see how that's going down.

Speaker 2: 1:03:43

And I would genuinely love to hear feedback about the book. I mean, I'm not saying I've got answers, I'm not saying this is a book that will change your world, your life, but what I am saying is that over the 30 years that I have been in practice and I've tried to just put as much as I've known into this book, that is a much broader book. I would love to hear feedback if you do come to read it. So you can find me on Instagram at just underscore, kevin underscore fin. Linkedin, kevin fin. You can get the book in Australia, new Zealand, at the moment through Booktopia and I'm just setting up my website to do international orders because unfortunately Booktopia is international distributor shut down in April, so we're trying to figure out how we fix that and it's not as smooth as we'd like, so I'm just going to do it off my website soon.

Speaker 1: 1:04:38

Awesome, kev, thank you so much for coming on. It's been an absolute pleasure, thank you for having me. I do truly recommend this book. For those who see my book list on socials it will be in there. But watching you over the last 12 or so months, the consistency that you show up, with the integrity and then also getting to learn more about how your mind works, has been an absolute privilege. Thank you for coming on Likewise. No-transcript.