In this episode, we get deep about mixing up your proteins and how so many people get it wrong.
Muscle Talk - Bodybuilding podcast by International Protein
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A Thinkroom production.
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In this episode, we get deep about mixing up your proteins and how so many people get it wrong.
Muscle Talk - Bodybuilding podcast by International Protein
If you want your own questions answered on our bodybuilding podcast, then join our private Facebook Group and share your ideas, https://www.facebook.com/groups/muscletalk
If you'd like to learn more about International Protein, visit https://www.international-protein.com/product/protein-synergy-5/
A Thinkroom production.
https://www.thinkroom.com/
Ash Horton:
Our host, the world renowned Christine Envall, an IFBB professional, three times world champion, a mentor, an icon and, of course, a founding co-owner of the best supplements money can buy, International Protein. In this episode, we get deep about mixing up your proteins and how so many people get it wrong.
Ash Horton:
Hey, Christine, we chatted in a recent episode about mixing up your proteins, so I'd really like to go a lot deeper on this and get a really good understanding of what proteins should be used, and when. Perhaps, you can even give us a bit of a rundown on how International Protein products should be used because a lot of these listeners are going to be using your products already, so actually use your brands and tell us the Synergies versus your WPIs, those sorts of things.
Christine Envall:
I think that's probably the best way to do it because when we designed the International Protein range, we did actually have a specific usage in mind, and a specific reason to use it and even, in some cases, a specific age group.
Christine Envall:
So, I guess I can talk through the range, Amino Charged WPI being the one that I'll kick off with, which is a whey protein isolate. So, again, we've talked in other episodes where that's a very rapidly absorbed product. It's a very high protein product, so it's very low lactose, very low sugar, very low fat, so it's essentially the purest form of protein that you can get, in one of the most rapidly absorbed forms that you can get.
Christine Envall:
So where is this most useful? It's post workout, so get it in quick. The idea is to get that protein in quickly to help with your recovery. And with Amino Charged WPI, we also put in arginine and glutamine, which are really great for recovery. Arginine has a lot to do with helping that process. It is also useful for sparing muscle, and can be used as an energy source, but it's actually very good for recovery. And, of course, glutamine, we all know. So it's very high in those things. That product was designed to be used post workout.
Christine Envall:
So Whey Protein Isolate gets used many, many different times a day, but it's actually not that suitable for a lot of different times a day, unless you literally are eating maybe eight times a day, and you're using a protein that frequently that you don't want something that's taking a long time to digest. But most people aren't doing that. Most people are probably having that five meals a day, in which case post workout is the best time for something like a Whey Protein Isolate.
Christine Envall:
However, it also makes sense that it would be good as a weight loss protein because of the lower calorie count. Obviously, the more fat that you naturally have with a product, so contrasting that to something like Superior Whey, which has more of the concentrate. So difference between an isolate and a concentrate is normally, not normally, it is, an isolate has been more isolated, so it has a higher protein content.
Christine Envall:
The concentrate is the same type of protein. It's both a whey protein. So from amino acid point of view, it is the same amino acids. It's just that the concentrate has less protein, therefore it has more lactose, which is sugar, and more fat, so that is the main differences. So therefore the calorie count is higher, because obviously the more fat per gram, the more calories it's going to have. And that fat, that also slows down the digestion a little bit, so that's one of the main differences there.
Christine Envall:
But as far as what amino acid you're actually getting, you are getting the same one. So, when looking at those two products for dieting and things like that, then obviously the one which has the lower calorie count would make sense that you're using the isolate. So that is what's in our Iso-CutS, but the other ingredients that we put in to the Iso-CutS, like your green tea, your green coffee, Garcinia, your Lipotropins, like your choline and your inositol and your L-carnitine, all of those things are helping with your weight loss as well.
Christine Envall:
So that product, it's not only the protein in there, it's the whole product that we've designed to help with people trying to lose weight. So having said that though, this falls, I guess, outside the International Protein range a little bit. Some of the proteins, like your plant proteins, are actually also really, really good for weight loss in different ways.
Ash Horton:
Why's that?
Christine Envall:
Some of it is they do have more of what we call the muscle sparing amino acids, so the glycogenic ones, the ones which will get converted over to energy to be used as an energy source, and that helps spare muscle because you're... We talked about before. If you've got it in your system from food, and it's there and available to use as energy, you're not going to strip it away from your lean muscle. So, that's one of the reasons.
Christine Envall:
There also may be.. And, again, it's not 100%, but there's potentially more appetite suppression involved with some of the plant proteins. Now, whether that's because obviously they digest a little bit slower than an isolate, so there's that aspect to it as well. So we don't obviously combine those two products in one product.
Christine Envall:
But if people do have plant protein and, say, the Iso-Cuts and that, then they're more than welcome to play around themselves and do a half-half mix and see if that suits them, or use one at one meal and one at another meal. And there's, obviously, the other health benefits that we'll probably do a whole podcast on, plant-based proteins and the health benefits of those kinds of products.
Christine Envall:
The other thing with Iso-Cuts is that we also put some fibre ingredients in there. So fibre, again, it's really healthy to have fibre, particularly when you're having protein because it helps everything move through better, but it also fills you up and helps with that feeling of satiety.
Christine Envall:
So that's our two products which are purely based on isolates. You've got one which is really good for recovery, and one which is really, really good for weight loss. So, that's the starting point there.
Christine Envall:
When it comes to weight gain, obviously protein and carbohydrates have the same calorie count. So theoretically, people think that carbs make them get fat or make them gain weight. But if you're looking at it gram for gram, it's not going to make you get any fatter than what protein is because they essentially give you the same amount of energy.
Christine Envall:
So when it comes to gaining weight, we also need to incorporate other things other than protein and carbs, and obviously that's your fats because it has more calories per gram. And when people are struggling to get the calories that they need to grow, then it makes sense that you would take those calories in from a fat source.
Christine Envall:
But just focusing on the protein part of the mass gainer, we tend to like a blend. We tend to not use, honestly, just an isolate for all those reasons that we talked about. It is really just purely a protein and doesn't have the extra fats and carbs with it. It's not just that. It's also, again, that speed that it's in your system. And when you're wanting to gain weight and gain muscle in particular, you want to keep your body in an anabolic state, so you want to always have those amino acids floating around in your bloodstream.
Christine Envall:
So when it comes to an isolate, it is actually possible to take a protein, an adequate protein, but be in a catabolic state because your body's literally cleared it out of your bloodstream too quickly. So if you eat, say, every four hours, but you add an isolate and it takes one to two hours for that isolate to be digested and basically stored where the body wants to store it, that means that there's two hours till your next meal, and you've essentially got no amino acids floating around in your bloodstream, hence you're putting yourself into a negative nitrogen balance.
Christine Envall:
So that's where you go into catabolism, and that's where your body starts to release amino acids from your own muscle tissue. So that's where it is possible to be eating enough protein, but at the wrong time and the wrong type, throw yourself into a catabolic state.
Ash Horton:
And do you think that a lot of... I mean, obviously professional bodybuilders know exactly what they're doing, but a lot of people out there, they'd probably just buy one protein and just stick to that, and don't really know what they're doing. Is that a fair call?
Christine Envall:
It's a fair call, and I see it. Obviously, our Amino Charged WPI is our biggest selling protein. And if people are only using that for post-workout recovery, that's fantastic. And a lot of the time that is the only time that people are using protein.
Christine Envall:
But when people do start to use protein more times per day, and I know that you need to do that often to get the protein that you need because, realistically, a female who's weighing maybe about 65 kilos or more, she's probably needing about 125 grams of protein a day. And then a guy who's on average weighing maybe 80 or 90, he could be needing 180 to 200 grams of protein a day. So splitting that over those five meals, for example, you're needing about, for the guy, 40 grams at each meal.
Christine Envall:
So putting that into context, that's a couple of hundred grams of chicken breast, or say 170 grams of steak, or something like that, and that's five times a day. And a lot of people again are probably underestimating how much protein they're eating like, "Okay, I have 25 grams of protein a couple of times a day." That's half of what you need. So, a lot of the time... I think I've lost a little bit of my track of where I was going with that, Ash.
Ash Horton:
That's all right.
Christine Envall:
But, essentially-
Ash Horton:
That's what makes it human. That what makes this podcast enjoyable because we screw things up.
Christine Envall:
I know where I was going now. Because obviously to eat steak or chicken five times a day, particularly if you've got to eat a couple of hundred grams, one, it's expensive, two, it's inconvenient because you've got to cook the stuff, or you have to eat stuff, which is cooked and cooled down and old and cold and all that nasty stuff.
Ash Horton:
It's not the same.
Christine Envall:
It's not the same. But a protein powder, other than your post workout, that opportunity of having maybe with your breakfast meal or maybe your bedtime meal, having those two or three times a day when you're using a protein powder is a really, really easy way to get that 25 to 40 grand hit of protein, and it's really easy to measure it out, you don't have to cook it. So that's why we see the usage of protein powder is where it is because people are realising that they need to eat more protein, and it is a cost effective way to get that, and it fits in with most people's lifestyles.
Christine Envall:
So when it comes to doing that, that's where if they're using an isolate at all of those times, it's not necessarily... Whilst you're getting the most protein, more than likely per serve, it's not delivering to your body in the way that you want to have it. You really want to look at something which is more sustained, and that's where we talk about something like our Synergy, which has a mixture of different proteins. So it has a different amino acid profile for each protein that goes into that product, and they have a different digestion rate. So you're giving your body that constant influx of the amino acids.
Christine Envall:
So when someone is trying to grow muscle, and obviously that's where I was talking about the mass, well, it has that same amino acid, has that same product protein profile that we're use in our Synergy. So we literally took the protein of the Synergy and then we added to that, the fats and the carbohydrates to make a mass gainer. But it's the same basic proteins, so it has the hydrolysed WPI, the WPI, WPC, the egg albumin and the calcium caseinate and [inaudible 00:11:02] casing. So it has that whole range of proteins, the different amino acid profiles and different release rates.
Christine Envall:
So that's a really, really good product for keeping yourself in that positive nitrogen balance when you're trying to grow muscle, plus the extra calories coming in from your fats. And then your recovery coming in from your carbohydrates, because obviously if you're using weights, you need to have those carbohydrates because your energy system runs off carbohydrate for weight training. Whereas with aerobics, or aerobic type activities, you can use fats and carbohydrates, so you can utilise your fat sources, which is what a lot of people want to do.
Christine Envall:
Whereas when you're doing weight training, you can't because it's carbohydrate based, that energy system, simply because you don't use oxygen. And obviously without the presence of oxygen, you can't burn fat, plain and simple. So when it comes to people who want to make some gains, then we are looking at a protein, or a mixture of proteins, of different time releases to keep them flooded with those amino acids.
Christine Envall:
So that's why I actually recommend, if you're not trying to gain super huge amounts of weight, you'd go for something like the protein, Synergy. But if you're actually very fast metabolism, or you're trying to actually actively put on muscle, then you would probably use something like the Extreme Mass. So that's the weight gain version of the Synergy, but both of those are really great to keep you going.
Ash Horton:
So what's the major difference between the two?
Christine Envall:
Okay. So the Synergy is just the protein component, so it has all that mixture of proteins. The Mass is literally half of it is the protein component, and then the other half of it, we put in the rice starch, essentially like ground-up rice. So if you imagine you get your rice, but you didn't want to eat it like rice, so we've turned it into a very fine powder that just puffs up in the water, so it's a different form of rice. And then we've obviously put your glucose polymers, which is your maltodextrin, and then we put the MCT oils because that's that fast burning energy.
Christine Envall:
So MCTs have the calories of fat, but they have a different way that the body breaks them down compared to other fats, and it's broken down into what we call a single step process, which is what carbohydrates and proteins are broken down in. All other fats have to be broken down and then reformed to be used, whereas the MCT is just broken down and used, so it's much quicker. So it's giving you that high delivery of energy, which is really great for workouts because it's giving you the calories and the fuel.
Christine Envall:
Obviously for weight training, as I said, you need the oxygen to burn the fats. But if you're doing any kind of activity where you've got a mixture of endurance and explosiveness and things like that, so your hit type of workouts, or people who do marathons and stuff. But people do like to use it for weight training. I think it just really gives them the extra calories for the energy that you're burning in an auxiliary sense around that which, most people, that's walking upstairs, getting around, driving, just everything, thinking everything like that.
Christine Envall:
So that's the really great thing about that is the main difference is half of it's the protein and half of it's everything else, the carbs and the fats. So as far as your calorie count, it's got... Off the top of my head, I don't have that number unfortunately, but it's from having that fat content, it's going to have a higher calorie count per gram than what the Synergy does. We'd also recommend it to be taken in a higher dose because, again, you're trying to get a whole... So if you took a hundred grams, which is a serving, you've got 42 grams of carbs and 42 grams of protein, and I think it's about 10% fat, coming in from there. So it gives you a nice, big, solid amount of protein, fat carbs, for energy and recovery.
Christine Envall:
And that's a really good one also for the young guys. And, again, it's suitable also for older people who struggle to eat. So I put my mum on it and she loves it because she doesn't like the whole fuss of having to eat, so it's a really good way of getting a balanced macro-nutrient profile into people. So it's good for older people, and its good for younger people and just anyone who has a high demand for the amount of energy that they're burning with that product.
Christine Envall:
What else have we got? The Superior Whey. So again that's a whey protein and we talked about how the difference between the isolate and the concentrate is essentially like the fat and the lactose content. But it also is some really critical growth factors which, when they turn it from that concentrate and they strip out the rest of the fat and the rest of the lactose, there are some growth factors and things like [inaudible 00:15:38], which is a powerful antioxidant, is somehow some of that will get diminished in the isolate because you are looking purely for the protein. And the concentrate has been shown to have higher levels of that, just because of how, I guess, it's less stripped out of everything else. And that one is also very good for older people because the antioxidant has an anti-aging property, so that's just a really good little difference. There's a very subtle difference between those two types of products.
Christine Envall:
But if you're not looking for the absolute lowest fat and lowest lactose, and you don't have a lactose intolerance and you can do that, then that type of product is really good to take, particularly for older people or people who are just really looking for general nutrition, like they just want a really great value protein. But do keep in mind that it is still a whey protein, so you are looking at one type of amino acid profile. It's not something where you have the different profiles from your casein and your egg, and it is still a relatively quickly digested product, so it's still up to about two hours and, to me, the difference between a half an hour to two hours is still relatively fast when you look at the scheme of things. But some people look at isolate as being a whole other beast to what a concentrate is, but the reality is they're not terribly different.
Christine Envall:
And for a lot of people who aren't looking for the Rolls Royce of everything, then they may be better off going with something like the Superior Whey, and that's regardless of whether you're younger or older, but it doesn't have the same kind of benefits as something like the Synergy, which will definitely keep you going between longer meal breaks. So with the Superior Whey, again, that two hour period, if you're eating three to four hours, you still potentially have that couple of hours where you don't have all the amino acids floating around in your blood system. So, again, we always say that's a high frequency use product where people who do eat every two to three hours, and that may be consuming four shakes a day, that's the kind of product that they go for.
Ash Horton:
And with the Synergy, because it's slow releasing, I guess, is there any cognitive benefit in that? Or is it all physically muscle?
Christine Envall:
I haven't seen any studies around that specifically cognitive benefit of the amino acids. I haven't seen a lot to do with that.
Ash Horton:
Dumb question, possibly?
Christine Envall:
More a bit of a curve ball. I'll go and have a look and see if there's any research done on it, but it's not something that I've seen pop up in relation to that. That is more around carbohydrates, I guess and, again, things like the carotene that we talked about, where there is definitely a linkage. Or something like, again, it's more the carbohydrates which link into the function of the brain, and we're having something like a keto diet, which is running off a totally different system to the carbohydrates, how that almost lowers the excitation of the brain.
Christine Envall:
And they're actually seeing that, that can have a benefit in stopping seizures which, to me, that's saying it's slowing the brain down which, to me, if you're a normal person, it's maybe not a great thing, and we've all seen people who have, what we call them, the dieter's brain, because it slows them down a little bit too much. But obviously in specific applications, it can be a good thing to slow that down where people are having... The brain is firing incorrectly, or too much, and it has positive benefits around that. But, as far as a protein is more around physical appetite, suppression, muscle recovery, muscle growth, and that I haven't seen anything pop up around cognitive function.
Ash Horton:
Okay. So let's just summarize this a little bit. Let's say, someone is trying to drop weight. Let's talk about, perhaps, they do a little bit of cardio in the morning, they rest during the day, and then they hit the gym in the evening. So what would be the ideal protein mix that you would suggest for someone in that scenario?
Christine Envall:
So their post workout if they're trying to drop weight, they really can go with the Iso-Cuts or the Amino Recovery, so they're both, because of the isolating them, they will recover. But because someone is wanting to drop weight, I would recommend that they use the Iso-Cuts really because you're trying to get the full benefit of that product.
Ash Horton:
For both the cardio and after the weight training?
Christine Envall:
Yeah, because that's the thing, is what is your priority? If your priority is to drop the weight, then I would say use the full three serves a day of that product to get the full benefit of the active ingredients that are in there to lose that weight. That's your perfect situation. Someone maybe doesn't want... Because a little bit of caffeine, like 30 milligrams coming from green coffee, so it's not super strong. But some people may not want to take that post workout, or late at night, close to bed, so they might want to take the Amino Recovery, and then they could have something like the Synergy in-between times to make them feel fuller.
Christine Envall:
But the Iso-Cuts does have that fiber, so it does tend to fill you up a little bit more and, obviously, the benefit of the Garcinia and how it processes the carbohydrate and also helps with appetite suppression. So if ultimately weight loss is your goal, then you are better to just take the Iso-Cuts as your three protein servings. And then at your other meals, your two or three other meals, you would be using some chicken breast and fish as your nice lean flesh proteins.
Ash Horton:
Okay. So same scenario, but this time we want to gain mass, so cardio in the morning, weight session in the evening-
Christine Envall:
If the person is trying to gain a lot of mass, they maybe are doing a very light cardio session in the morning and they aren't necessarily doing it fasted, so that's a different kind of scenario where they may or may not want to actually take some of our other products like the... Well, even the person trying to lose weight could take something like Amino Recovery before that cardio session to make sure that they're getting just enough amino acids in there to be used as a fuel. They could take the 2:One:1 just to ensure that they're not utilizing their actual muscle as an energy source, that they're actually using an added supplement. But they would be probably better to try to time it so they could actually eat something before, but that could be difficult because of the time that they need to get up.
Christine Envall:
Something like the Extreme Mass, because it has the protein and the fat and the carbs, puts everything back straight after. They're trying to gain that mass, they need to put that back, then I would be utilising that. And I'd probably be using that straight before they go to bed as well, but still then using the Amino Charged WPI, but with something like our Extreme Carbs after their weight session.
Christine Envall:
So we didn't talk about these Extreme Carbs because it's not a protein, but it's definitely something where you can really dose and measure your carbohydrates, and it's a performance product in the way that we've put the mixture of different carbs together to really either help you with the energy for your training or to help get those carbs back in after a training session. So particularly when someone's trying to gain mass, they may even use that carbohydrate products throughout their training session mixed together with something like either the 2:One:1 or the Amino Recovery.
Christine Envall:
So they're really trying to give their body every opportunity to stay in a positive energy balance, positive nitrogen balance, and to really maximise their strength in the gym and to probably not overdo the cardio. Keep the cardio in for fitness because that'll improve your weight session, but not really go for that high-intensity type cardio. It might be just a fairly gentle walk on the treadmill or walking outside, something not over the top, not trying to really strip the world up and just give them a little bit of health fitness coming in from that cardio. So I would definitely be adding maybe a couple of extra meals as well. They could do an extra mass meal outside of their regular meal, so they might be looking at six or seven meals a day because they have to keep getting those calories in there.
Ash Horton:
Right. And, just to summarise, someone that's a little bit older, probably they go for a little bit of a walk, there's not too much exercise mixed in there, what would be the ultimate?
Christine Envall:
Well, that's actually interesting for an older person because it would depend a lot on the rest of their diet. And sometimes, again, that can be a little bit questionable. So, again, I use my mum as an example, because she's ancient. She's 81.
Ash Horton:
I'm sure she'd love you saying that. She's probably going to listen to this.
Christine Envall:
She'll probably will.
Ash Horton:
You'll be in trouble.
Christine Envall:
She knows it. But she actually has about six hot drinks a day because apparently old people stop and have a cuppa quite frequently, and she actually adds a teaspoon of the Extreme Mass to every one of her drinks. I mean, it's not a lot, but it just adds those extra little bit of calories, and so even if she's boosting it up by 20 or 40 calories at each meal with a little bit of protein and carbohydrate, it works. So it can be something where they could spread that throughout the day. As I said, the Extreme Mass, because of the balance of the protein and the carbohydrate and the fat, it is our closest thing to a meal replacement. The reason we can't call it a meal replacement is we don't put the extra vitamins and minerals, so you're not going to get everything that you need.
Christine Envall:
However, there's no law that makes food be quantified for that. So if you're eating your meal, and I'll use you as an example, Ash, you're having your rice and veggies, you're not getting all of your nutrients out of that, there's no protein, so you'll be lacking a whole bunch of your B vitamins, you'll be lacking probably some phosphorus and some zinc. So you're allowed to eat that and nobody is telling you off, but as a food company, we can't responsibly call something a meal replacement, unless it has everything that you would get supposedly out of rounded four-square meal, or three-square meal, type meal that granny used to cook.
Christine Envall:
So that's the thing too, that always baffles me how there's no qualification or quantification about what you do if you freely choose, or if a takeaway food place sells food and says, "Oh, that's a meal," and no one questions that it's a meal. And, yet, if you actually looked at its nutrient balance, it's probably far from what you need to get everything that you need. But when it becomes a supplement, it gets very scrutinised in terms of what you can and can't say about it. So in terms of that mass, it ticks all the boxes from a macro point of view, but it doesn't tick all the boxes from the micronutrient point of view, hence we can't say that. However, it is a really great option for people who are struggling to eat properly.
Christine Envall:
If they are not struggling to eat properly and they just need to get their protein throughout the day, then I would flip it over and use the Synergy because it doesn't have the carbs and it's just really a protein supplement but, again, it's going to keep them going. Or they could look at the Superior Whey, but it really depends on that meal timing. If they are eating quite frequently and they don't struggle to get their meals in, then the Superior Whey would be quite fine as well, particularly if they're just using it to boost up the protein in a couple of meals and they're eating really well with the chicken and the beef a couple of times a week, or they're combining their beans and their rice and plenty of dairy products.
Ash Horton:
Obviously, we're not speaking to our audience here, but we might be speaking to them about their parents' perhaps.
Christine Envall:
I keep saying that we can't forget that our parents... So much has changed since they were young, so much in terms of education, around nutrition, activity, lifestyle, what foods are available. And I always think that we take for granted because they're our parents. They know everything about these things, but I think nutrition is one area where there's been so much more awareness come around and so much change in terms of even what the government recommends versus what is actually good, and it's still a little bit behind in terms of the importance of protein in so many factors around health and metabolic diseases. And, as people get older, it's easier to eat convenient foods, which are not necessarily that good for us. And, again, I'll use the chicken nugget example, is it's not real chicken and the actual protein content is pretty low but, for some reason, old people love it because it's so easy to eat.
Ash Horton:
I worry about what's ground in to there. It's not real chicken is the fair comment, isn't it?
Christine Envall:
Yeah. So, keep an eye on your parents and make sure that you're educating them along with what you know. And the best thing on the market, according to the medical professionals, is Sustagen, which is so full of sugar, that it's ridiculous. So, what products that are promoted to old people are not necessarily the best products from a health point of view either.
Ash Horton:
All you got to do is look at McDonald's. I think they created a company called A Hundred Percent Beef, and it wasn't a hundred percent beef, the product that they created, but their legally registered name was A Hundred Percent Beef. So there's all sorts of-
Christine Envall:
Well, that's like the hydrolysed protein, the hundred percent hydrolysed versus the hundred percent of what could possibly be hydrolysed versus the hundred percent of what the enzyme we used could hydrolyse is 100%, but it's only 5% of the product, and people getting their head around that and sifting out what's marketing and what's not.
Ash Horton:
Now, factually, I haven't checked those facts. It's just what I've heard, so McDonald's please don't get upset about that. But this is fascinating stuff and I think it's probably cleared a lot up for people and it's probably really helped them. I know, and I'm not a good example, but I know I would just stick to that one protein and I just take it all the time, so this has been really beneficial. Thank you very much.
Christine Envall:
No problem. But if anyone does have any questions, specifically, about their situation and which protein is best for them, then just pop it on the Aussie Muscle Guru Facebook page.
Ash Horton:
Words of wisdom. If you like what you've heard, recognise that these tips are free, so show your support by becoming a loyal International Protein customer by jumping online, hunt our product down and hit that Buy Now button. So, once again, like, share and subscribe to our podcast so we can continue to bring you these episodes from our one and only Aussie Muscle Guru, three times world champion, Christine Envall.