Muscle Talk - By International Protein

The Science of Keto Diets

July 21, 2021 International Protein Season 4 Episode 11
Muscle Talk - By International Protein
The Science of Keto Diets
Chapters
Muscle Talk - By International Protein
The Science of Keto Diets
Jul 21, 2021 Season 4 Episode 11
International Protein

In this episode, we discuss keto & why it causes weight loss.
We discuss if it's healthy, the negatives, the benefits, and how long you should stay on the Keto diet.


  • What is keto?
  • Why does Keto cause weight loss?
  • Is keto healthy?
  • What do you eat on the keto diet?
  • What are the negatives of the keto diet?
  • How long should you stay on the keto diet?


If you want your own questions answered on our podcast, then join our private Facebook group and share your ideas,  https://www.facebook.com/groups/muscletalk

If you'd like to learn more about International Protein, visit https://www.international-protein.com/






------------------------------------------------------
A Thinkroom production - www.thinkroom.com

Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, we discuss keto & why it causes weight loss.
We discuss if it's healthy, the negatives, the benefits, and how long you should stay on the Keto diet.


  • What is keto?
  • Why does Keto cause weight loss?
  • Is keto healthy?
  • What do you eat on the keto diet?
  • What are the negatives of the keto diet?
  • How long should you stay on the keto diet?


If you want your own questions answered on our podcast, then join our private Facebook group and share your ideas,  https://www.facebook.com/groups/muscletalk

If you'd like to learn more about International Protein, visit https://www.international-protein.com/






------------------------------------------------------
A Thinkroom production - www.thinkroom.com

Ash Horton:
Welcome to Muscle Talk, where you'll get world champion advice about nutrition and stacking on muscle. Our host, Christine Envall, she's a three time world champion bodybuilder and IFBB professional, a food scientist, and a founding co-owner of our podcast sponsor, International Protein.

Ash Horton:
In this episode we discuss keto and why it causes weight loss. We discuss if it's healthy, the negatives and the benefits, and how long you should stay on the keto diet.

Ash Horton:
All right, Christine, so what is keto and why does it cause weight loss?

Chris Envall:
Okay. Keto is a style of dieting, [crosstalk 00:00:49] dieting, and it's a low carb form of dieting. So keto, essentially there's various different forms of it, but I have a little definition here. It is a low carb, high fat diet. It also says it lowers blood sugar and insulin levels and shifts the body's metabolism away from carbs and towards burning fat and ketones. That's kind of like the scientific definition of it. So basically a keto diet is called keto diet because it puts your body into what we call ketosis, which means that it's burning a different form of fuel. So normally you think about what the body runs off. It runs off of carbohydrate. [inaudible 00:01:28] blood sugar, blood glucose, or glycogen in the muscles. So when you don't have that present, the body flips over and starts burning what we call ketones. So they're a byproduct, or not really byproduct of metabolism, they are a different part of the metabolic path.

Chris Envall:
So instead of starting out as a sugar, like you can enter them what the sugars become. You can enter that as a direct phase. So instead of entering it as a carbohydrate, you can directly put the ketone in which comes from fat and it [inaudible 00:02:00] into the metabolic process and then it just keeps on going. So it's kind of like short-circuiting part of the metabolic process, if that makes sense. So it bypasses the part that requires the insulin and that's where the trouble comes or that's why these diets got developed because going back when people started to have trouble with insulin insensitivity, so basically the body stopped responding to insulin, along with that came issues with blood sugar levels. So low blood sugar with cholesterol levels, heart disease, obesity. So all of those, what they call metabolic disorders, they worked out that these diets were very, very effective at bringing people back to, I guess, a better state of normal. Dropping weight very, very quickly and getting them back to a stable thing. Not healthy, but get them out of that danger zone.

Chris Envall:
So how that worked obviously was it bypassed the part of the metabolism that required the insulin and fed into a different part of the energy cycle. And that's what these ketone bodies are. So they are developed from when fat breaks down as a source of energy. So that's where the name keto comes from, is because it was basically using ketones instead of carbohydrates as the energy source.

Ash Horton:
So you used the word healthy before, and you said not healthy, but back to a stable level. So is the keto diet healthy?

Chris Envall:
Well, I'm talking about the person and the state that they were in when they started. So what that's basically saying is it was developed not for people who had healthy metabolisms or sports people or any of those people who are not functioning normally, the diet was developed for people who had issues. Like they had high blood pressure, high blood lipids, insulin insensitivity, obesity, and they needed something which would have a dramatic impact. So that's where you asked the question about weight loss. So when you radically change someone's eating habits, some of it is simply the fact that they couldn't fit enough food in of these types of foods, so their energy intake came down dramatically. It wasn't as such as that they weren't burning, that they were burning a different type of fuel, and that's not the magic, you're burning fat, but it's not magically doing it.

Chris Envall:
There is still a calorie reduction, and a lot of that comes about because you can feel a little bit sick on these diets, but essentially it still was restricted. When they did these diets with the people, they found it was way more effective than feeding them the same calories, but on a high carbohydrate diet. Because on the high carbohydrate diet, it still had to invoke their insulin system, which wasn't working, so it was causing all kinds of troubles. So they needed a diet which bypassed the part of the metabolism which was the problem, and that's where the keto diet. So what it essentially did to those people was bringing their insulin, like not requiring their insulin, so it didn't kind of matter that that wasn't working, but it did also improve their blood lipids and it also improved their blood pressure and a whole bunch of other medical markers and obviously dropped weight.

Chris Envall:
So that's why they became popular. But if you look at the diets and you look at all of the studies that have been done over the years, after the three-month mark, the benefits stop. They don't keep on getting better and better and better, and it becomes as good as any other diet. So whether they got to that point by low carb, Mediterranean, DASH diet, any other kind of diet, at some point they all end up at that same point and the improvement doesn't continue except on the Mediterranean diet. Believe it or not, that actually continues to improve. But pretty much every diet hits a point where the person's blood lipids come down or their insulin sensitivity improves or their blood pressure improves, but only to a certain point, and then it doesn't get any better from that point. So at that point you could essentially be on any kind of diet.

Chris Envall:
So it was very much an acute intervention to get people back into a healthy state. So that's what I was talking about there. And how it works is you're now essentially restricting your food because if your food flips from being eating a whole lot of carbohydrate, which is very, very easy to consume, to eating a lot of food which is a lot harder to consume in terms of you think about how protein fills you up, or how fat fills you up compared to say how a carbohydrate does. Also the fact that your body is running on a different system, it's a whole different way of eating. So from that point of view, the weight loss is happening because the person is really changing their eating habits. It's not like there's magic that is causing it. Because if you were to still consume 6,000 calories based on keto, you're still going to gain weight because the energy that you don't need is still going to get stored as body fat.

Ash Horton:
So what do you eat on a keto diet?

Chris Envall:
Okay. Well, do we want to talk about that or just whether or not they're healthy? It probably falls in, I guess. So a keto diet, there's actually a couple of different forms of keto diet. There's not just one anymore. The basic keto diet or the standard keto diet is very low carb, moderate protein, and higher fat. So what they are saying is about 70% of your calories is coming from fat, 20% coming from protein, and 10% coming from carbs. So now if you're an athlete, bodybuilder, 20% protein is way, way, way too low. We will be looking at a much higher level. So that's why they have the high protein ketogenic diet. I think that's the one which is more popular today. It's very similar to standard keto, but it includes protein at about 35%, which is what I would expect to see an athlete or a bodybuilder eating, about 5% carbs and about 60% fat. So it's a little bit less fat than the standard keto diet and again, much, much lower carbohydrate.

Chris Envall:
But then there's also what we call a cyclic keto diet, which is where they're going up and down in their carbs. Not a lot of research around about that. And honestly, if you're trying to stay in ketosis and [inaudible 00:08:08] feeding, that might actually wreck the whole system, because the idea is that it takes a particular period of time to get into that state and then you can come out of it by refeeding, but then you got to go back into it again. So we don't know a lot about cyclic ones. And then targeted keto diet, that's where you actually add carbs around specific workout. So again, you're starting to mess with what essentially is a keto diet, and it's not the same thing. But the high-protein keto and the standard keto have the most research and are probably the most popular in terms of the true staying in that state of ketosis.

Chris Envall:
Because it obviously takes a while for the body to kind of run out of all the stored carbohydrate. I think it's around a couple of weeks, again, depending on what you do, what your exercise regime is, exactly what you're eating. They think that actually taking ketones can force you in there sooner, and then obviously you don't want to pop out of that because you've got to then go through a process to get back into it again. So you want to stay in that state of always forcing your body to directly burn the ketones rather than have a source of carbohydrate, because your body will always burn the carbohydrate first.

Ash Horton:
What did you mean by taking ketones?

Chris Envall:
Okay. So there're products around called ketone bodies, which is essentially a chemical form of what your body makes from breaking down the fat, and they got popular a few years ago. Really, really expensive. The theory was that if you took them you could put yourself into ketosis quicker. But again, research is a little bit loose around that. Not a hundred percent certain. I know there're a couple of products out there that have them in, but they definitely died away in popularity. I think the flavor and the price apparently. I never tried them because it's just not something that I really want to do, but apparently they taste pretty rank. I think jet fuel was how they were described in one instance, but people who are into that think they're absolutely amazing. But I think for the average consumer, the price and the taste kind of really took them out of being something that was in everyone's everyday diet. It's way, way, way easier to get your, what do they call it? The Bulletproof Coffee or something, where it's basically MCT powder and coffee.

Chris Envall:
So it's like fat and coffee, no carbs, no protein and have something like that. So eating more fat is way more palatable than eating the actual ketone and then just let your body turn it into a ketone where it's supposed to. So as far as what you eat and whether the diet's healthy, it's like anything. You can have a very, and again, because we talk about the diet or the overall food consumption being healthy, not a specific food. If you choose the wrong foods, you can have a very kind of unhealthy version of it and you can have a very healthy version of it.

Ash Horton:
So what are some of the wrong foods that you might have?

Chris Envall:
From my point of view is looking at things, and again, a true keto person would probably disagree with me, but I would say sticking to eating a lot of saturated fats. And that's, I guess, the really contentious issue around these. If you're eating the bacons and the highly saturated meats to give you your fat and your protein versus eating olive oils and healthier fats with lean protein sources, to me, it's got to have an impact on your blood lipids. Like if you're eating highly saturated versus eating monounsaturates and polyunsaturates and omega fats, something like salmon being a good choice, but a lot of say bacon being a not so great choice. So that's the kind of difference that you get done. If you're getting your protein from protein powders and low fat dairy product or a lower fat type of cheese versus maybe still eating a lot of processed type foods to still get that protein and fat, then I think that's the kind of difference that you're looking at. [inaudible 00:11:54] looking at what other nutrients are coming in with it.

Chris Envall:
So I guess we'll start off with my targeted things of what people say to eat and that's things like red meat, steak, ham, sausage, bacon, chicken, turkey. All your typical kind of meats. Fatty fish, salmon, trout, tuna, mackerel. So they're all pretty standard. Again, eggs. So some people might struggle with the cholesterol. They're having too many eggs. If you have a genetic predisposition, that can be a problem. If you don't, eggs generally have a natural emulsifier in the egg, which takes care of the cholesterol, so you don't always have a problem. There's a guy who is in my Facebook group, The Middle Aged Muscle Movement, and he's on a, what they call a carnivore diet. So it's essentially a form of keto. And I know he eats some of the stuff which I would consider not so healthy and he's generally overall healthy, but he said that he did have a couple of issues with one of his blood tests that came back in terms of his lipid profile. That is something to be conscious of.

Chris Envall:
From my point of view, a diet that's devoid of a lot of fiber could be an issue, but if you're eating vegetables, the right type of vegetables on the keto diet to bulk up the food and to feel like you're eating something, then again that's going to be okay. But if someone's eating low carb, but not eating any of the low carb vegetables with that, then they potentially will have an issue because they're going to miss out on a lot of the phytonutrients, the antioxidants and the things that are in those more carbohydrate type of foods. And again, things like cream and butter, we all think of the saturated fat and we think of heart disease. And that said, whilst the diet did improve those markers in people, regardless of where the food was coming from, in terms of being saturated fat or unsaturated fat, it hit a point where it didn't get any better.

Chris Envall:
Whereas the Mediterranean diet, which has a lot of the polyunsaturates and monounsaturates, the fibers and more carbs and slow carbs and those types of foods, they have continued to improve. So I think it's not unhealthy, but there's a point where it doesn't get any better and people kind of hit a certain point. And then there are the arguments around the potential for cancer from a lot of meat products, and that becomes a whole other discussion around the health of eating those particular types of foods and not eating more whole foods, whole grains, legumes, things which all contain a lot of carbs for a keto eater. So that's where that comes in.

Chris Envall:
But just on the food that you do eat on keto, we talked about meat, the fish, eggs, butter, cream, cheese, but they say unprocessed cheese and not your cheese slices. More of your cheddar and [inaudible 00:14:41] cheese, mozzarella. Now interestingly nuts and seeds is on the list. And I found this really interesting because they do still have a substantial amount of carbohydrates. So if you're trying to keep your carbs below five or 10% of your calories, you're looking at less than 50 grams or maybe even less than 20 grams of carbs, so you wouldn't be eating nuts and seeds in it. You wouldn't be eating 100 grams, barely.

Ash Horton:
[inaudible 00:15:05] more seeds than nuts?

Chris Envall:
Seeds, they still have a relatively high level of carb. You'd be looking at maybe a 10 to 20 gram type of serving. It doesn't mean you can go eat unlimited, because I think you'd blow out your carbs very, very quickly. And then that means you can't eat any of the vegetables because they do still count the carbohydrate in vegetable, even though in my version of a carbohydrate, there's so much fiber with them that sometimes those carbohydrates, the body doesn't treat it in the same way as either white sugar or eating even a rice type of a product. So that is just interesting to keep in mind.

Chris Envall:
Keeping that in mind that you're not going to be sitting there eating like 100 grams of these kinds of foods. And I think that that whole selling point often with keto is, oh, eat whatever you like, eat as much as you like, you'll just keep on losing weight. If you listen to anyone who's followed keto, it hits that point where just like anything else that equilibrium happens and your body weight stops dropping because you got to count your calories, end of story. It doesn't keep on magically happening. And it was in that kind of three to six-month mark that that happened for most people.

Ash Horton:
I mean, is that combined with intermittent fasting? The keto diet, quite a lot. And then you can eat as much as you want of that diet in a certain window period, because that's something I've heard.

Chris Envall:
Yeah, that definitely is. I had a little note down here that keto is often used with intermittent fasting. So yes, a hundred percent what you can consume. Say if you're doing, the people who eat one meal a day, it would be very, very hard to overeat in that one meal, just eating these types of foods, before you got too full. Especially if you did that for a while, because your stomach will adjust and you won't be able to fit that volume of food. How long people can hang on a diet like that is another question.

Ash Horton:
Especially if they're physically active, right?

Chris Envall:
Yeah. And again, we're talking to bodybuilders and people who are trying to grow muscle and get bigger and be stronger. Mentally if you try to do one meal a day and then go in the gym and push some heavy weights, most people-

Ash Horton:
One meal is the extreme though, but let's say you're talking a 16/8.

Chris Envall:
Even a 16/8, if you think about eight-hour period, say you're awake for 16 hours, maybe more, and you can only eat for half of those hours. So it's like four hours each end. I think people would adjust to it, but again it would depend when you're training. A lot of people don't like to train on an empty stomach. I know me, I don't feel like I can push decent heavyweight around on an empty stomach. So if I hadn't eaten four hours before I went to sleep and then I had to get up and train, I wouldn't be able to do that. Cardio, I'd probably have no trouble with. So how you stack your meals and when you put your training in then becomes an issue so that you have the right amount of energy to be able to do that.

Chris Envall:
People can probably get used to anything, but that's one of the biggest failures of any diet is the adherence because it's too damn hard. Too damn inconvenient and just fitting it in with your routine. And for some people, they do only eat a couple of meals a day and that would probably work out quite okay. For other people who get hungry and active and feel that kind of, just that emptiness, not feeling like you're kind of substantial and solid, which comes in a lot when you're doing a lot of exercise and a lot of training, but as I said, people can get used to anything, but people struggle with just regular dieting, let alone doing that type of intermittent fasting. But I believe it's a lifestyle and people who do get into it get right into it.

Ash Horton:
So coming back to the keto diet, what are the negatives of it?

Chris Envall:
Obviously as you're getting into it, then there can be a lot of side effects like the flu type of feeling, diarrhea or constipation or actual vomiting in the extreme. Because I've never tried it myself, I don't know exactly what my body would go through, but I've read a few things where other people get that nauseous feeling, the headache, you're feeling super thirsty, like getting a lot of thirst and stuff. So even in the first place of getting through that can be tough for some people because if you think about it, a diet can be tough enough as it is without making yourself feel like you're kind of really sick. But then once you get through that, it's meant to be quite sustainable. Obviously you're not going to get the blood sugar ups and downs. So that could be a really, really good thing for some people to have that. I think for me, depending on what else you're eating so... Sorry, before I go on to that, poor energy and mental function is another issue. Increased hunger, sleep issues, nausea, digestive discomfort, decreased exercise performance, and that-

Ash Horton:
A lot of that's temporary. Is that what you were saying before? [crosstalk 00:20:21]-

Chris Envall:
Those ones can be ongoing. I mean, that's obviously the main things that are going to happen straight up. I think the decrease in exercise performance, it may take a little while for your body to adapt because adaption is not going to happen overnight and you've got to get your body used to calling on the secondary energy system. And it's going to want to kind of go that way first and then there're no carbs and it's going to go that way and readapt. And you can train your body to that. But I think there's going to be, again, everyone's going to be different and some people we'll stick on it for a few years. People that I see working on that aren't high level athletes. So most athletes are still finding that they need that carbohydrate to fuel it, because that's the most efficient way to do it.

Chris Envall:
I do know of people doing more endurance type sports where they do actually train on low carbohydrate to force their body to utilize more fat, so that when they're in race conditions they can give it the carbs, and then being able to tap into the fats is a super bonus. It's almost like having the secondary tank or the nitro fuel backup so that when they run out of the carbs, their body is like, yeah, I know what to do and it hit straight into the fat. Whereas when you're not trained like that, you run out of carbohydrate, the body kind of freaks out and it's like, oh, what do I do? What do I eat? So there's all of that consideration. And I know there's a lot of work being done around that. And that's probably where the cyclic keto or the one where they're looking at putting specific, targeted carbs at certain times and that type of thing. So that's something that's interesting.

Chris Envall:
Now, I think to follow keto you would have to be a person who likes that type of food. So for me personally, there's only so much meat and cheese, I don't really even eat cheese. There's only so much of that type of food that I actually feel good eating, whereas some people I love it. They're like, just give me meat, avocado. I know you love your avocado. And there's only so much of really low carb vegetables that you can enjoy before it becomes really unenjoyable. So that's where I was wanting to kind of talk on the vegetable side of things. Because one of the vegetables that they recommend, broccoli, that's fine, but it's 7% carbohydrate. So if you're trying to hit 50 to 20 grams of carbs and you're eating some nuts and seeds and then a couple of hundred grams of broccoli and you're getting close to your limit. And if you're a hungry kind of a person and I'm sure like anything your body will adapt and whilst meat might fill you up for the first few months, what then? As your body gets used to processing that type of food.

Chris Envall:
Tomatoes are good. Only 4% carbs and again, super high in vitamin C and potassium. Onion, 9%. That's still [inaudible 00:23:09] low, but you're not going to take a lot of those. You're probably not going to eat a lot of onion. Are you? Brussels sprouts, 7% carbs. Cauliflower, 5%. Cauliflower is very good. That's been used for all kinds of carb like food, like cauliflower rice, and they can make a lot of stuff out of cauliflower because it's got a really cool texture. So that's a really good vegetable for people following keto. Kale, that's actually got 10% carbs, which kind of surprised me for a green leafy, but really, really it's packed full of vitamin C, vitamin K, carotene, so you need to have that with your fats. So that's all good. Eggplant, 6% carbs. That's another good vegetable. Cucumber, only 4% carbs. They can eat stacks of cucumber. Bell pepper, 6%. Asparagus, 2%. If it wasn't so expensive, we'd probably eat lots of asparagus. But it also makes your urine smell.

Ash Horton:
It does.

Chris Envall:
Yeah.

Ash Horton:
We talked about that last episode. Was it you? No, it was somebody else.

Chris Envall:
That was somebody else.

Ash Horton:
They were telling me that they did it as a science experiment at school. And I thought, what a cool school to go to? I didn't get that when I was young. They ate asparagus [crosstalk 00:24:16]-

Chris Envall:
[crosstalk 00:24:15].

Ash Horton:
[inaudible 00:24:18]. That's random. I don't reckon that would be done in today's world.

Chris Envall:
Probably not. I know that in America, asparagus is huge. Broccoli and asparagus are the two main vegetables that bodybuilders love to eat. But again, [inaudible 00:24:35] kind of a point where like, eh, no, enough, enough. But super high in fiber, vitamin C, folate, vitamin K, carotene, antioxidants. So it is actually very, very good. Green beans, 7% carbs and mushrooms 3%. So mushrooms are really good. Cucumber is really good. But they're all mostly salady type vegetables. So it can kind of get a little bit ad nauseam eating those types of things. And then if you think about still, if you're having, I suppose, a couple of meals a day, intermittent fasting, doing that, it probably works out quite well. But yeah, for me personally, there's a lot of hours between when you're not able to eat. I like kind of like a 12. 12 hours of fasting is about as much as what I would go. If I count only having a protein shake, then it becomes about 15 hours, which is pushing up there. But yeah, probably a protein shake for breaking the fast.

Ash Horton:
It probably is. Yeah.

Chris Envall:
Yeah. So you're basically looking at a lot of meats, cheeses, fish, those type of vegetables, a little bit of your nuts and seeds and then your oils. Because again, if you're trying to get your calories from 60% fat, that's quite a lot of grams of fat to have to consume there. Avocado is obviously a good choice.

Ash Horton:
So how long should you stay on the keto diet?

Chris Envall:
Some people can stay on it indefinitely. But as I said-

Ash Horton:
It doesn't improve. So you're sort of once you're on it, it doesn't improve, so there's no point?

Chris Envall:
Well, there's no point unless that you can't control yourself eating the carbs. Because you remember the thing with the carbs is they're so easy to over consume.

Ash Horton:
Yeah. So if you're coming off the keto diet, you'd have to be really gentle easing back into the carbs, I'm assuming, because your body is not going to know how to handle it.

Chris Envall:
Not only that, but you're going to remember that it's very easy to tip it back over the edge again. Yeah. Because that's the problem with carbs, is that there's nothing wrong with them in the right quantity, but we seem to struggle with the quantity. So I think for some people, if they could elicit the same kind of control around the carbohydrate portion size wise, fit that into their diet and be satisfied with that, then they wouldn't have a problem transitioning back. But for some people it's probably just easier to say, you know what? I don't need these things. I'm used to not eating them, and it's like anything you get used to what you do, or they'll find a certain carbohydrate that works for them really well and they stick with that.

Chris Envall:
If anyone is thinking about keto, here's a list of what you're going to have to give up. So obviously sugary foods. So that's soda, fruit juice, smoothies, cake, ice cream, candy. I'm sure there's all keto versions of all these out there now, but it kind of to me defeats the purpose because you're trying to eat also healthier for your body. So if you start getting keto versions of junk food, then that's where we talked about it being healthy and unhealthy. The natural forms of foods that you would eat on keto, totally fine, but if you start eating a lot of foods which are manipulated to be keto and actually, I guess, processed foods, then that's where you want to end up with, it doesn't have the nutrients that you need. All those other foods are very rich in other vitamins, other minerals, other phytonutrients. Whereas when you flip over and you start eating a keto version of a cake, what's actually in it and is it still going to have the same nutritional properties?

Ash Horton:
[inaudible 00:28:01].

Chris Envall:
Yeah. But basically giving up grains and starches, so any wheat based products, any rice, any pasta, any cereals. Fruit, except for very small portions of things like berries. You're giving up beans and legumes, so peas, kidney beans, lentils, and chickpeas. Now that's a big deal, so obviously if you're trying to be vegan, it's probably not going to work so well for you to be on keto, and those foods are so helpful that it's not a great thing to be giving those up. Fruit, vegetables like potatoes, sweet potato, carrot, parsnips. And low fat or diet products like low fat mayonnaise, dressing and condiments. So you're using the full fat version, which isn't necessarily a bad thing to do, but that's the stuff that you'd be giving up if you're going to eat keto.

Chris Envall:
As I said, I know there's a lot of products on the market now, which is marketed as keto type products. And again, my jury or my decision is out without looking at each one and saying, well, okay, is that actually a good option? And you're probably better off to stick with your basics, like the vegetables and the meats that we talked about.

Ash Horton:
Okey-doke. Well, that was a lot of information and very helpful for probably a lot of people that are considering it. So thank you very much.

Chris Envall:
No worries. Like anything, I think if people are curious, give it a go. Be prepared that it's going to be kind of ordinary for the first few weeks, but unless you get through that, you're not really on it. Set yourself a target to try to stay, see how you like it after maybe six weeks or two months.

Ash Horton:
Personally, I've done it and I loved it. I was just surfing at the time, so I wasn't pushing the body too hard, but I loved it. And that was combined with the intermittent fasting and I felt like I had more energy and more mental capacity.

Chris Envall:
So why did you come off it?

Ash Horton:
I don't know. I got tempted into cake or something. But it was really good. It felt like it was a really good detox sort of portion of my life. I was living in Bali at the time and just spent six months doing it.

Chris Envall:
That's interesting insight there. Actually I was going to say that a lot of it too now is looking at the effect on people with epilepsy and is it even Parkinson's disease? So what they're finding is, obviously we all thought that the brain had to run off of glucose and that's why we had to keep carbs in, but we realized that the body can run off of, sorry, the brain can run off the ketones as well. And it is improving the situation where people have, I guess, the little bit impaired or messed up kind of electrical impulses. So where the epilepsy or Parkinson's and other neurological conditions, that the low carb is actually helping those types of disorders. So interesting. That's very interesting around how the brain was actually set up to run off of that and how it does change the chemistry of what the brain's operating on.

Ash Horton:
I will add though, that I lost a lot of muscle mass. I lost a lot of fat as well, but you know...

Chris Envall:
The muscle mass. Yeah. Again, depending on the study, some studies say where there wasn't a dramatic difference in muscle mass loss, but again, these studies were done on people who probably didn't have a lot to start off with given that they were potentially quite overweight. But as I said, for someone who is weight training, it's generally not the best way to go because of, some people say that they can't keep their strength. I know that-

Ash Horton:
You lose it.

Chris Envall:
Yeah. As I said, I've never done it, but I know how my body feels when I'm late on a meal, even though I haven't flipped obviously into full ketosis. But yeah, it's good for other types of activities or gentle fitness and people who are training and doing it are not training to the level that I know that you need to train to to be at a top something. So if you're trying to compete and do that type of thing, you're going to feel different to someone who's just training to be fit and generally active. And I think as people get older, it's a diet that's more suited to people who are a little bit older because your metabolism does change. You don't seem to have the same requirement for carbohydrate. But if someone's in their 20s, 30s, trying to get as big as possible, training really hard, then they've got to keep those carbs in.

Ash Horton:
Yeah, for sure. Thank you very much, Christine.

Chris Envall:
No worries, Ash.

Ash Horton:
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