New author, David Dulany, joins us to talk about how to build a sales development team and discusses the very recent release of his new book called The Sales Development Framework.
We cover off some of the big things in sales development right now such as what does WFH mean for the make-up of the future typical SDR team?
What’s happening with ageism in the sales space?
Should you fill your SDR team with all college graduates?
Plan your work and then work your plan.
David's 3 big things for building a strong and successful SDR team?
What Tech-stack should we be running right now and, in particular, what tech is an absolute must have today, it’s probably not what you’re thinking.
Grab the book - The Sales Development Framework.
Catch all versions of me here.
VIP sales mailer
Tactical Pipeline Growth
1 on 1 Consulting
Alrighty, welcome to the boss podcast this week. I'm delighted to have David Delaney along, David. Thanks for joining us.david-dulany:
Absolutely. Thanks for having me.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--mark_mcinnes:
Very cool. So a quick introduction, so. David Delaney. you're the founder and CEO of 10 pound director of sales development for a software company called act on hosted the 10 bound podcast, which is a great podcast by the way. And listeners, make sure you get your heads around that. And most importantly, and very excitingly, a brand new author with a brand new book called the sales development framework. So David w we'll spend a bit of time on the book, but can you tell us a little bit about 10 bound and what it is that you do with your day and who you are?david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--david-dulany:
Yeah, absolutely. So 10 bad focuses on the sales development space, obviously everything that we're doing. And and you know, in, in the tech industry here in, in the Silicon Valley and now, you know, worldwide, a lot of the companies have sales development teams. So they, they break up the sales team into the. The front end, you know, sales, development, reps, SDRs, BDRs, et cetera. Then they've got the account executives and the customer success. And so we really focus on that front end and we've got content research advisory and events that, that try to bring that industry together and offer, you know advisory and solutions for people trying to figure that out. And so I've been doing this for. Going on five years actually. And, and and you know, new to the, this entrepreneurship space and, and running your company and all that good stuff. So, yeah, it's been great.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--mark_mcinnes:
So do people businesses subscribe to tin bands and then get access to the resources. Is that like, is that how that works?david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--david-dulany:
Yeah. You know, on the advisory side, you could think of it this way. there's a ton of free content on the, on the site. And so if you want to do it yourself you know, we've got all the usual. Research papers and blog posts and webinars and things like that. To help you, if you need a little bit more support than we offer, you know advisory services. So we can stand in as a fractional manager, build playbooks, do training, things like that.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--mark_mcinnes:
Okay. And, and what sort of companies do does that, do you typically work with, are they tech or are they only tech or.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--david-dulany:
Yeah, I mean, 100% a software as a service companies. we would love to, you know, And beyond that, but and, and primarily here in the Bay area and then the San Francisco area you know, it's just, it's a really hot industry right now. And most of the companies that are focused on software as a service, one of the first things they do is hire a sales development team. And once they have the sales development team, Then it opens up a lot of issues and they start needing advice and content and training and things like that. So that's where we step in.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--mark_mcinnes:
Yeah. Just not as easy as what people think. Right. So people think, Oh, we'll just hire a few people and get some phone numbers and you know, how hard can it be? Hey, David, it's Mark. Do you want to buy my stuff? and you know, you, and I know it doesn't really work.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--david-dulany:
Yeah. I mean, there's so many, there's so many, it's just an interesting topic. I mean, that's why I've been, I w before I started at 10 bound, I was running sales development teams, that software as a service companies. Right. And and then we started this. It's an interesting topic because essentially. salesforce.com. You know, when they, when they came out with structuring their sales team with the sales development team, they made a big splash. There was a big, a book that came out called predictable revenue by Aaron Ross. And it became sort of the Bible of how to set this up. So, you know, like I said, a lot of these companies, they get some funding. They find a market and the first thing they do, they buy predictable revenue and they set up an SDR team. And then it's like what do we do now? Right. So,david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--mark_mcinnes:
Yep. Yeah. You got to page 14 in predictable. I've got that book somewhere here, but how many? And it was, it's like the bar, it was like a bottle, right? So it's, it's like, it's what, it's what it was. I think things have changed a lot. but anyway, so, but I'm really interested to hear what you think. So you've obviously spent some time writing a great book about sales development. You've got, you know, that's your entire focus. So tell us a little bit about the sales development framework. Like What there's a lot of stuff we've already said, there's some great books. Why do you need to run another one? What's what's, you know, tell us a little bit about that waste the whole. So you think, what are we doing wrong? But we don't already know.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--david-dulany:
Yeah. I mean, it it's interesting because you know, and we were joking around before it took five years to write the thing. And essentially where it came from was we were running a sales development manager. Training class. So it was pretty unique. There's a couple other companies that do it now, but back then, it was hard to find you could find SDR training, you know, and you know, similar to some of your programs, Mark, you know, where the individuals could learn prospecting and cold calling and all those skills. But we, we saw a niche where there wasn't a lot of training for managers on how to. Start the program and build it and run it and be successful. And, and so we created a manager training program that we've been doing now for about four years and iterating on it. And so essentially with the, with the book, we, we took that. Manager training and broke it out into chapters and, and, you know, built it out. So you could just buy the book, you know, and run it yourself. If you want it to, instead of paying to take it training, I hope you'll still take the training, but you could just buy the book and do it. So it could be for anybody from. You know, an executive who wants to start it SDR team, or they were just handed the SDR team and they're like, what do I do with this? I don't even know how to do this. or you're a middle manager you're running a team or even an SDR who, you know, wants to step up and be a manager. At some point, it gives you a framework, you know, to build the program.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--mark_mcinnes:
Okay. All right. So it's, it's definitely for that, the managers, the leaders, or the aspiring managers and latest rather than an SDRs handbook on how to do things or does it include that as well? Yeah.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--david-dulany:
I mean it's. Yeah. So it's, it's more of the strategy and tactics for setting up the program and running it on, on a daily basis and being successful. and, and that's funny that you mentioned that because. Hopefully it won't take five years, but we do an SDR training class now. So I got to get that you know, hopefully it'll be a shorter time, but I got to get that done at some point. But this, yeah, this is definitely you know, it's interesting because SDR management is, is a really tough position. I mean, people re realize it. I mean, a lot of times it's SDRs who get promoted. And suddenly they're managing a team of people to get results through a group. And they're like, Oh my God. You know? And, and they, they psych loud, they burn out. They they're like, ah, we're back to become a sales rep because it's, it's, it's a tough job. So we hopefully can make it a little bit easier.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--mark_mcinnes:
So, so I'm interested in, in digging in a little bit into like the process of writing the book. So w w well, let's get into the, like, so you said it took five years. So tell us a little bit about that process. I mean, that's a long time.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--david-dulany:
Yeah, I know, dude. And, and as funny you said that yours took six months and I'm jealous. I wish I had that kind of discipline. and it was, it's an interesting time. I mean, I had been in the corporate world for 20 years before this, between, you know corporations and startups, you know, software companies and stuff. So yeah. you know, I, I, when I started going out on the entrepreneurial path, one of the first things that we did was set up a payroll. Where I had to make payroll for myself from day one. and, and, you know, I'd never done that before. So, so it was a question of, you know, starting the company, putting products and services out to market making payroll, you know, and, and surviving and making some kind of contribution to my family. and then. In the back of my mind, I was like, you know, I I'd like to get all this down into one, you know, book or one guide. And so bill built out the, the manager training and started doing that and just putting notes into a file you know, working with different editors. And when you, when you can, you know, put a little time into it here and there and suddenly. You know, four years passed and it's like, I gotta get this thing done. So and I'll, I'll telldavid-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--mark_mcinnes:
Yeah. Did he get,david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--david-dulany:
he get an editor to help you at all?david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--david-dulany:
Oh, I mean, I cycled through, you know, a bunch of people who tried to pull it together with me and, you know, I bet that's why there's like about 20 people that I think, you know, in the, in the, in the book, because they tried so hard, but it was just, I, I, you know, I was hard to work with and stuff like that. So anyways, long story short I interviewed a guy. For our podcast named Kyle van Boris, and just an amazing guy. I, you should have him on your show. eh, he he's you know, just a really great gen genuinely awesome person, and he knows he's forgotten more than I know about sales and entrepreneurship and all that stuff. And he said something really interesting. He, he goes You know, he had written a book and it did really well. And he said, everybody should write a book, you know, just the, the process of discipline and pulling people together and all the stuff that you learn. And it's kind of stuck in the back of my head. And I finally you know, got a Ray of light and I said, Hey man, I've got like, This big file full of, you know, craziness that I've had for four years. and do you want to be a coauthor, you know, and, and let's work on this together and bring it to market. And thankfully he agreed. So we were able to do it.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--mark_mcinnes:
Oh, well, well, congratulations. It's it it's, it's a good feeling as you will know. So when's the, when's it due out? When, when can we get it? It's pretty close. Isn't it?david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--david-dulany:
Yeah, it's actually, it, it dropped yesterday. so it's,david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--mark_mcinnes:
and you know, we got, we ordered some and there's only like five or six mistakes and we'll fix those. And then it's It's there and it's, it's awesome that I'm, I just I'm so psyched that, you know, we can share this and I just think it's awesome, but Hey, that's just me.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--mark_mcinnes:
Okay. So let's give, let's give the listeners a, you know a couple of reasons to buy it. So you know, what's different about what, what do you talk about in the book that people don't know? You know, like w what are you doing differently? What are you telling them to do differently? Like, give us a couple of those nuggets, if you wouldn't mind, like, and you can choose, I'm sure there's a couple of really good ones in there.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--david-dulany:
Yeah. I mean, one, one thing that has come to mind, it's, it's sort of a, it's a leadership book that sort of mans does a sales of moment framework. And so the reason that I, I took that, that angle is if, if you think about putting these, these programs together, you can kind of boil it down to the, the there's the people. There's the process and there's the technology that's plugged in. And especially around here. I mean, the first thing that people do when they want to start, one of these is they buy a bunch of bright, shiny objects, which is great. I mean, you need a, a solid tech stack, but that that's kind of where they stop. so they really focus on the technology maybe a little bit on the process. And then as far as people it's just like, Let's just get some, you know, butts in the seats, you know, I mean, anybody could do this type of attitude. I mean, not, not obviously not all companies that think like that, but they, they look at sales development is like really tough job. Let's just get some, you know, really junior people stick them in there and there'll be, it'll be great, you know? And so we try to flip that around. And so we start in the book with let's think about the culture. From a people perspective, let's think about the culture that you want to establish on the team and make sure that, that it reflects the, the type of team that you would like to see in the future. So you know, and that's really up to the leader. Who's going to start the team, you know, they've got to come up with like a hypothesis for what their culture is going to be. So we have them go through like an exercise of. Let's write down, you know, what your culture statement will look like? Is it high performance? Is it team team-based and supportive? Is it a learner mentality? Like what do you want to establish that as moving forward? And then once you get it down, then you share it and you start to form the actual culture as you move forward. So we start with the culture, which is now a little bit different than most of these type of books.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--mark_mcinnes:
That's great. you know, I don't know what it's like in the us right now, but I can certainly say here, it's very difficult to get salespeople. what we're seeing is people that have got jobs don't want to move because of fear of, you know, starting a new role, and then having to prove themselves in somewhat challenging times in relation to COVID or whatever. So if you go to a new job and you're, you know, you'd done perform you're in on probation and then could find yourself without a job. So there's a. Tendency for people to stay where they are. And at the same time, businesses are thinking let's get back to work on eight people to start driving revenue, start booking meetings. So there's an increase in the amount of positions. No, one's moving. So there's a decrease in, in in a viable talent. So it's really putting some pressure on, on what we call the business development sector. You know, so SDRs I is anyone that's generating revenue. So I don't know if that's the same over there. but as a result, You know, there's, there's, there's not a lot of people around that can do at the moment. So, yeah. Interesting.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--david-dulany:
Is, I mean, it's, it's, it's interesting too, because there's sort of a, I mentioned this a little bit. There's kind of a stereotype of. business development slash sales development. There's a lot of different ways to put it, but it's essentially that, that, that team that's prospecting and following up on inbound leads. There's a lot of, there's a stereotype of that. It's, it's gotta be like someone right out of college, you know, who. has the right resume and they've done, you know, sports and, you know, it's, it's, it's like, and, and it, it shuts you down to a lot of potential employees that, you know, could be amazing for the job. I mean, and, and could potentially really do a great job, you know? and so I always try to encourage people to look beyond just the stereotype, you know, from a culture perspective and. Really give a diverse audience, a chance for the job, because they could do a great job, you know?david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--mark_mcinnes:
Yeah. Yeah. Look, I was going to ask you about that. So I'm glad that you brought that up. some of my best clients have got a really diverse I grind of, of STR slash lead gen. And in fact, what we've found is that, you know, middle-aged men and women are actually very good. You know, ringing people up and having a business conversation with just that little bit of extra, you know, life experience you know, people that have been doing those types of roles for a long time, you know, and, and aren't focused on how quickly can I become an IAA. They're very comfortable in their role. using it as a stepping stone, they treated us as a profession, you know, and they've been very good. You'd be listened to them in their tone, their pace, you know, they can handle objections really easily. and I do think there's a challenge in relation to putting, you know, your most junior employees all the time on the front front end of you know, your first engagement with. With your prospective clients. so I'm interested on your take on what you think there. You're the sales development framework author. You've got all this sales development experience. What do you, what do you thinkdavid-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--david-dulany:
Yeah. I mean, you know, it's really interesting because when I talk to leaders, they'll I don't know where this comes from, but th they, they're always, they've always got that certain stereotype of what they want, the SDR team or the BDR team to look like and, and, and be like, and I think that there there's just a lot of causation. I think there's a lot of age-ism. You know, in the tech industry in general you know, they, if, if, if you're kind of over 40, you know, you're put out to pasture for some reason, which is, which is really strange. and, and there's a real emphasis on energy, you know, and, and doing stuff and, and, and it, it, it, unfortunately, You know, freezes out this whole part of the population, that that would be terrific at the job if you gave them a chance. And you know, I think COVID may have helped us a little bit in this regard, you know, because Now you can work at home. So it's, it's not necessarily that you're coming to the office and everybody has to look the same and act the same and play ping pong and, you know, do foosball and stuff like that. It's now that it's more remote, it's all, it's more about the. Results that you're getting. And that's really what you want at the end of the day from the sales development team. It's are they setting appointments for the sales team? Are they building pipeline? Are they doing it reliably? you know, what, who cares? What their background is necessarily. I, so, yeah.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--mark_mcinnes:
Yeah. Yeah. And maybe that, I'm just thinking, as we talk, maybe that work from home thing will make it easier for, you know, moms and dads said maybe you've got kids or whatever, when I stay home and do you know, four or five, six, eight hours a day on the phone. in the Mo that might work really well for a lot of people. Does he book cover off, you know, how many culture in, in like a work from home sort of remote situation, do you cover any of that sort of stuff in the book?david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--david-dulany:
It does. Yeah, it was funny cause it was it was part of the editing process over the last year because a lot of it was emphasized being in the office and doing morning circle ups and. You know going out new years and stuff like that. So we, we had to, we had to do some editing because it is it's quite different and it's almost, you know, there's a lot of books I see popping up now on, on the, the nuances of, of managing a remote team. But we definitely cover off on that and, and and, and dive into how to make that successful because it's critical right now.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--mark_mcinnes:
Yeah. So, David, what do you think are the two, like if you had to just pick two, what, what two mistakes do you think people typically make when they're setting up a sales dev team? You know what you know, like if you were coming to make me, did I know how to sales, they have a team of 20 people before you walk in the door. What are you, what, what, what, what do you think right.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--david-dulany:
So that's, it's a good question because at first I thought you meant, if you came to me and you were like, I'm going to start from a blank slate. that that's, that's that's an interesting problem right there, but if you, if you came in and you had 20 already. And there was something wrong. I mean, that's NASCAR when people call us you know, the for, I would start to break it down. Okay. W let's take those three aspects, people, process and technology. and one of the first things to look at is let's take a look at the process. How, how are leads. Flowing, you know, to the team and how effective is that and how are, is the technology working together? And is it, is it a hindrance or is it helping the team to be more successful? And then let's look at the people component. So how is the culture strong and supportive and healthy? are they getting enough training and coaching? Did we hire the right people to start with? Or was it kind of a wing it situation to just sort of fill the room with 20 people? There's a lot of, there's a lot of questions that you can start asking in that respect too. so that that's probably where I would start there.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--mark_mcinnes:
Okay. So and if I can put you on the spot without any what's, what's your favorite tech stack at the moment? Mark? What stuff do you love to use?david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--david-dulany:
Yeah, well, I mean, there's the foundational parts that you have to have these days. You, you really. you can't just have Salesforce and, you know, a list of leads from somewhere. and I, I think anybody that listens to this hopefully knows that already, but, butdavid-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--mark_mcinnes:
Hopefully they pass that.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--david-dulany:
yeah, I hope so. I mean, if not, you know, give me a thought, I'm happy to walk you through some stuff. so you've got to have some sort of sales engagement platform that sits over the top of. Of your CRM. And so, you know, HubSpot, you know, has both and now we're we try to stay agnostic, but you know, there's, some of the big names is HubSpot. Even Salesforce has a sales engagement platform that sits on top of theirs and then sales, loft outreach vanilla, soft Zandt, you know, there's a, there's a number of players and they, they, they essentially. Create a workflow for the SDR so they can stay on track with what they're doing all day. so you got to have some kind of sales, engagement platform and then data, right? Data is the lifeblood of sales development. you know, you only have so many inbound leads. a lot of those inbound leads need to be. Enriched and enhanced with good information, you know, and then if you're going outbound at all, you've got to have names and phone numbers that, that work correctly and are integrated into the sales engagement platform. So, you know, I would definitely look hard at, at those technologies. The other one real quick, that is making a huge impact in the sales. Industry for eight ease, but a little bit also in SDRs is conversational intelligence. You know, if you haven't looked into conversational intelligence, I would drop everything right now and become an expert in this because essentially you know, you're recording the calls that you're having and we're doing everything on zoom. So you're recording the calls and then these platforms will. Pick out the key components of the calls and, and give you advice and intelligence based on what is happening on the sales call. And so, you know, is the sales person talking too much? Are they asking enough questions? Are, is there enough of a, you know, use of a certain type of word? I mean, it's, it's, it's revolutionary really. It really is. so that's one of the lookout too.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--mark_mcinnes:
So that's companies like chorus and that sort of thing.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--david-dulany:
Yeah, gong hasdavid-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--mark_mcinnes:
Yeah. Yeah. There's a couple gone. That's the one I was thinking of. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, so that's pretty cool. So David, how can we get hold of the book if, if we can, so listeners are listening, thinking, okay, this is something that might help me. How do they, how do they grab themselves a copy?david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--david-dulany:
Well, there's an infinite supply and there's a on our website, just T E N B O U N D m.com. And, and right at the top, you can pick one up, even if you just, if you put the number 10 and then B O U N D, I bought that. And so it goes over to it. So yeah, pick it up and. Let me know what you think. Leave a review and let me know, give me your thoughts on it. I'd love to hear it from people.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--mark_mcinnes:
Okay. So I'll put that link in the show notes so that people can grab that straightaway. what about if people want to hear more from you or get in contact with you? What's the best way for them to do that? Deputy's there was social media channel, for example, that, that you own the lot ordavid-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--david-dulany:
Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn way too much. that's my little advice. I love LinkedIn connect with me for sure. It's it's do Laney, D U L a M Y. And yeah, I mean, I, I would love to come and visit you sometime, you know, it's this not being able to travel is absolutely killing me. So I hope someday can make it down there and be there life.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--mark_mcinnes:
Yeah. Well, if you ever come down, but feel free to come to Sydney and catch a couple of bees to be more pleasure, diamond really appreciate you taking, taking some time out of your day to come on the boss podcast, mate. That's been terrific. Thank you very much. And good luck with the book.david-dulany_recording-1_2021-04-21--t11-35-43pm--david-dulany: