BOSS Podcast

The magic 3 M’s model to better customer conversations- Joe Micallef.

May 24, 2021 Mark McInnes/Joe Micallef Season 2 Episode 49
BOSS Podcast
The magic 3 M’s model to better customer conversations- Joe Micallef.
Chapters
BOSS Podcast
The magic 3 M’s model to better customer conversations- Joe Micallef.
May 24, 2021 Season 2 Episode 49
Mark McInnes/Joe Micallef

In this episode we hear from Joe Micallef, Joe is an ex-Aussie banker who now specializes in sales coaching and training for bankers, predominantly in the USA. 
 
Joe and I go way back to the good Ol SalesITV days, where we were working with the legend, Dean Mannix.  
 
So there is a lot of commonality in the way we train and the way we think about sales.  
 
Joe has a couple of really simple ways he coaches and trains his clients and he shares those models with us in this epsiode.
 
They are the 3M Model and the 3 C' Model. 
 
I challenge you to run this simple and effective exercise inside your business you will see a marked improvement in the quality of both your and your team’s prospecting, no matter where you are in your personal sales journey, 


Joe Micallef
https://www.linkedin.com/in/growupsales/ 

Mark McInnes
https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-mcinnes/ 

Website/ Newsletter
www.markmc.co 

TPG
www.markmc.co/tpg 

Show Notes Transcript

In this episode we hear from Joe Micallef, Joe is an ex-Aussie banker who now specializes in sales coaching and training for bankers, predominantly in the USA. 
 
Joe and I go way back to the good Ol SalesITV days, where we were working with the legend, Dean Mannix.  
 
So there is a lot of commonality in the way we train and the way we think about sales.  
 
Joe has a couple of really simple ways he coaches and trains his clients and he shares those models with us in this epsiode.
 
They are the 3M Model and the 3 C' Model. 
 
I challenge you to run this simple and effective exercise inside your business you will see a marked improvement in the quality of both your and your team’s prospecting, no matter where you are in your personal sales journey, 


Joe Micallef
https://www.linkedin.com/in/growupsales/ 

Mark McInnes
https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-mcinnes/ 

Website/ Newsletter
www.markmc.co 

TPG
www.markmc.co/tpg 

Mark McInnes:

This week I'm joined on the BOSS podcast by Joe Micallef, Joe, welcome to the BOSS podcast.

Joe Micallef:

Good day , Mark. Good to see you, mate. Good to see ya.

Mark McInnes:

How I a great long time, no speak, but we've got a friendship that goes back quite a few years ago.

Joe Micallef:

Yeah, absolutely. We used to catch up like at least once or twice a year. I'm not living over here in the U S now. So I've been here for quite some time, but when I started this journey as a professional coach I was fortunate enough to meet Mark McGuinness through his his, his relationship with Dean Mannix at sales ITV. So we're both We're both students of the sales ITV platform. And and since then, Mark and I have maintained a close relationship. So certainly a mentor of mine. Big fan Mark. So love, love your work.

Mark McInnes:

And your mind as well go. Like I love the way that you've been so successful in another country. A lot of people would have found that really daunting or bit challenging. and here you are you know, and Aussie from, from, from Sydney, that's going out, you know, from the suburbs of Sydney, that's gone out and done very, very well. And I'd love you to share that. I mean, you've had a really successful banking. Korea, not, not as a banker, but as a senior, you said, so, Doug, can you share with the listeners a little bit about maybe that journey where you've come from and how you've ended up in, in the U S

Joe Micallef:

Yeah, absolutely. Megan made I've I've never taken any shortcuts. I've always done it. The tough road. So yeah, it's a 30 year career in banking. I started with one of the major banks and then I joined this little bank called Macquarie bank. Well, it's a little bank in the, in the sort of the mid nineties and McCory had no absolutely no presence in Western Sydney, which where I was born and raised. So that was my first foray into sales. And prospecting and business development went out to Western Sydney. Nobody knew Macquarie bank. We were known as the expensive bank and very quickly we grew a portfolio of $200 million in lending and 150 million in deposits within three years now in banking circles. That's pretty phenomenal. So love that. And then I had an opportunity. I came back into downtown Sydney or into the city, but you could tell him he living overseas racking to the city. And I hope Macquarie, especially its relationship banking area, develop its business development skills, right? It's business development strategies. Whereas before it was like, Hey, we manage a few clients, we get a few referrals and it was that slow, steady growth. Well with suddenly we had this sharp growth successful once again. and then they tapped me on the shoulder and said, Hey, Joe, we've just bought this business in Canada. it's flat-lining can you get over there and see if you can generate some business development spark. And I did, that was in 2010. Same thing again, mate, it was all about prospecting and that's what I've learned is a lot of bankers just don't know how to proactively develop business development strategies or proactively engaged clients. But I learned very quickly that if you want to create a sales culture, you need to create a coaching culture first. And that's what I did in Canada for a few years, again, turned around this business that was, flat-lining just like coaching my team on how to be better at prospecting, better at engaging clients, better at having meetings. and then I met and fell in, love with an American girl. That's a whole other story and moved to the U S and that's when I thought, you know what? I love this coaching gig. And in the U S maybe we got 5,000 banks over here in the U S so. My I arrived, not knowing anybody not knowing or no context. And I started with a clean sheet of paper. And again, I just put those skills into place and I love work with bankers that I am helping them develop these prospecting skills.

Mark McInnes:

No unique in the coating and the training spice in the, I can't think of anybody that is just so focused on one sector. You know, you have people, you know, like Dean for example, he's, he's, you know, he's excellent at training financial services, but he also trains solar and he does some other things, you know, I do financial services, but I also do it. I'll do business services. So, but you just do financial services and even narrower than that, don't like, you've got some geographical boundaries that you operate in. Tell us about what they are and why.

Joe Micallef:

Yeah. You know, one of the things that I've learned over the years and by, in, when am I being a business banking career, and even in my career in Canada was to specialize. I always specialize in specific markets. And as you, and I know when you specialize, you can create. Tremendous value for the industries you specialize in. Right? I mean, that's the secret, isn't that the key to prospecting? So when I arrived, I was going to be this sales coach and I started talking to all different types of businesses. And I said, Well, hang on. How am I creating value besides being this energetic guy with a weird accent in the U S which drew a crowd? I can tell you, I realized that, hang on, I've got this 30 year career in banking. And as I started speaking to bankers, I recognize it. They've got some serious challenges over here. They're highly reactive. And I'm, you know, I'm not shy about saying that because I know a lot of my banking contacts will watch and listen to this podcast. And, you know, they, they're reactive. They're waiting for people to walk into the branch, waiting for people to walk them out the phone to ring, or maybe they'll get some introductions from their clients. And so when I recognize that was a big problem I thought make this 5,000 banks here. You're not as Spotify thousand Banksia. So if I, if I understand the industry really well, understand their challenges really well and can provide solutions to those challenges, then why do I need to broaden? But you know, you and I know mate perversely, by looking after these banks. Some of these commercial bankers will say, Hey Joe, I've got a client that's really struggling with sales. Can you do a presentation for them? We'll do a workshop for them. So I get some introductions to other industries, but, but banking, there's just so much opportunity. And you talk about geographic. I live in the Midwest, so the real heart of the U S so and that, that covers about 15 States and a lot of States with a lot of banks and they all need help. You know, and last year, quite frankly, they they closed up over here, all the branches closed. And so now, as they've been reopening they've, they've realized, Hey, we've got to get better at this prospecting thing. How do we re-engage with our customers and our prospects? So my business has been soaring for me, zooming, as, as you can say because of that, there's a need, I understand the market. I've had success in that space. Plenty of opportunity. Why, why would I, why wouldn't I want to focus.

Mark McInnes:

Well, well, I'll tell you why a lot of people wouldn't focus this because I would look at the possible opportunities to be training everywhere else. And I would look and, you know, they get greedy and, and this is a mistake, you know, I think what you're doing is absolutely perfect because most salespeople, most business leaders. I think we could widen out our offering and capture more people. And when you do that, you stop being comical. If the financial services and the Midwest banking expert, and you become just another trainer and you've got to compete with everybody, my bet is that. And I don't know, but my bet is you're competing against very few people. As in your mind, you know, most people would consider Joe the go-to guy for what it is that you do. And that's because you've been able to carve out that niece or. Yeah.

Joe Micallef:

Yeah, well, there's 12, there's 12 state banking associations. Now that I'm their sales coach, I'm their sales and service guy. Right. And so, you know, there's a few other players out there, there is, is in this space and some wanting to get into space, but they go, Hey, you know, Ozzy, Joe, that make great speaker, great coach. And so I get the referrals just come pouring in and that's being in a little period of only five. And he is because of that focus, you know? And so.

Mark McInnes:

you do have a very strong character, like a very strong presence too. I think that that helps. So

Joe Micallef:

tonight. It scares them too, but that's okay. It wakes them up And wakes them up and then they're afraid to not do their field exercises with me. I get it. Cause I'll pull them out. So now it's, it's great. I enjoy it. I love it.

Mark McInnes:

And you do a good job. So I've been over there off self, senior clients have walked with you. You know, we've done some presentations together in the States and you know, I'm not how much I love you. You do a terrific job. I love what you said there about being reactive because I think that's the same regardless, you know, like right now there's a lot of people in certain sectors going, we need to press the go button on our, on our sales. Even here in Australia where we're not as affected by COVID as what some other places are, you know, but they were still being very reactive, you know? So that proactive piece is really important. So, so many of people miss that and just expect the phone calls to come in and makes it very hard.

Joe Micallef:

Well, it's the biggest difference between as I cite a bank is as big as difference between being a service provider. And a finance professional and today businesses like your target market, they want to finance professional. Right? A lot of it, the pandemic was a great, you know, it's been a horrible time, but it's been a great opportunity for bankers to outreach. And, you know, I've been saying over here in the U S bankers are the economy's first responders, right. Because you're getting out there and you're helping these businesses like resurrecting these businesses or helping them achieve their vision. So the only way you're going to do that is be proactive. Right. It's it's the biggest, that one word is addiction. Biggest difference between sales, mediocrity and sales success is being.

Mark McInnes:

So you've got a model that you use to help finance professionals with their prospecting. So I want to unpack that a little bit and share with the visitor, with the visitors, with the audience. so it's called the 3m model, right? So that's the three M's three for Mark three for meatloaf.

Joe Micallef:

Yeah,

Mark McInnes:

Great.

Joe Micallef:

right. You know, you, you know, you've written a Great. book about it. I, I'm a, I'm a genuine fan of the book. As you know, I've shared it with a number of my clients as well, but prospecting is one of the biggest challenges. You know, I even got a phone call from a banker today is saying, you know, my boss is on my back. I'm going to ramp up my prospect meetings. I need your help, Joe. And the first thing I thought was, why is it your. Wasn't your boss helping you. Right. And so that's a whole other story that you and I talk about the need for consistent coaching, but prospecting prospecting is still the biggest challenge for all salespeople. Let alone bankers, especially bankers have been reactive. So what I've tried to do is simplify it. whenever I provide coaching around prospecting, I talk about this 3m process and again, taking inspiration from all the sales people that I've worked with and learned from over the years, but I've just tried to keep it simple. And three M stands for motivation. Message and method motivation message and method. So if you think about who you want to outreach to, right? Who you want to connect with, who you want to meet, because that's ultimately what we're trying to achieve, right? Put your target list together, ads, people with common industry or some common challenges, whatever it may be and think about what would motivate them to want to meet with you, what would motivate them? I want to meet with you. So it's not your motivation. How many times have we heard that mistake been made? We see it all the time, such a common look, I'd just like to I'm Joe blow from ABC bank and I'm just reaching out to because I'd love to learn more about your business. Well, that's what you want, not what they want. You know, we've heard that mistake so many times, what would motivate a target? a prospect to want to meet with you. And I've got some theories around that. And we'll talk about that in a second, but then once you understand that motivation, you truly understand why they'd be interested in meeting with you because you understand the industries and the challenges and the goals put a message together around that motivation. Put a message together. And this is what you talk about in the book bite. When you talk about content, right? So what is your script look like? All the attachments, like what is that message that you're sending out? And the last one is method, which is your channels in your book. You can tell I've read it right. is his message and sorry, his method. So, what method are you going to use? And, you know, for goodness sake, don't just use one method. You know, there's several methods you should be using over a period of time, so understand their motivation. What would motivate them to meet with you? How do you put that into a message? And then what do you use? What's the method you're going to use the channel, as you say, to get that message out there. So three AMS. And when I, when I break it down, as simple as that, if the light bulbs go off for a lot of bankers and like, Oh, okay, I come back and the toughest bit really is the motivation part. They just going to sit back and forget, you know, stop thinking about you and really think about them.

Mark McInnes:

Yeah. Okay. So can you, can you get a lot? I liked it cause it's really simple. And started while I'm thinking, you know, my five pillars has got two too many, so well done. So the, the motivation piece. So it's interesting when you first said that I'm thinking, okay. Yeah, it's all about motivation. It's all about me, but what's the motivation to engage with us. So can you give us an example of, of, you know, the sorts of things that finance professionals should be talking about to create, you know, to tick that box?

Joe Micallef:

Yeah, So a line I like to use with a lot of my clients, I want to bankers is I say to them, it's not about contacting as many people as possible and hoping to get a meeting. It's about making yourself tremendously valuable to the people you want to meet. So know who you want to meet first. Right? So whether it's a, you know, manufacturing clients, whether it's small business clients, whether it's millennials, you know, we know there's all these into these targeted groups. And it's funny that you and I opened this conversation by talking about specific industries and having a specific target market. So thinking about who you want to meet, and a lot of bankers will say, you know, small businesses, Joe, any small business, I said, okay, so. What would motivate them to want to meet with you? And here's a little thing I use. It's called my three CS. I love my three M's and my three CS. And it's simple as this, when you're thinking about what would motivate them, think about a concern they have about banks. What's a concern, small businesses have about banks charge a lot of fees. I'm not really getting any value. They don't understand my business. They don't understand, you know, they don't offer me any guidance on efficiency. So what's a concern. Secondly, what's a crime, what's a crime being committed right by those businesses. And now I'm not talking about illegal activity, right? I'm talking about, they just, they're not using online banking. They're not leveraging the equity in their business. They haven't developed a succession plan for their business. So there's all these crimes being committed by these businesses that are not. Enabling them to grow. And then the last thing I think I say, when you're thinking about a motivation is what's a crisis that's impacting that industry. What's a crisis that's impacting the industry. So manufacturing firms there has, they're struggling to retain skilled labor at the moment. Right. Manufacturing firms are struggling to retain skilled labor. Look at the restaurant industry in the crisis. Yes, we can talk about the pandemic, but there's lots of other mini crises that are happening. So as a banker or any salesperson, if you can think about your target market, what's going to motivate them. Well, what's going to motivate them is if you can express some knowledge. About concerns I have about your industry at crimes. That's preventing them from being more profitable and growing and crisis that. may be impacting their business and share That with them and let them know that you've got some strategies to help them. Why wouldn't they want to meet with you? That sounds like a lot of great motivation there. Right? And it's all about them. It's not about you.

Mark McInnes:

Yeah, I love that. That must be, that's a really easy way for you to any sales person to sit there and write down those three CS and go what's happening right now. So that's, that's really clever, Joe. I love that. I really do. And, and just to be clear, you know, if you're not, if you're listening to this now and you're, and you're not. A banker in the Midwest, give this a go. This has got to work. You know, like I said, these strategies are absolutely going to be applicable to you. You just need to use your language instead of the banking language, but let's keep pushing on. So is that, does that take the motivation box?

Joe Micallef:

Okay. Yeah. it does mate. And my thanks for clarifying that it does in whatever industry like that, those three CS work for you. And I made, so just think about if you're a sales person, whatever industry you're in. Just think about what your potential clients don't like about. You know, your kind, so even sales coaches like you and I, when I reach out to banks, prospect of aims, And I want to talk to them about sales coaching, their sales coaching needs, I think. Okay. What what did banks or any client dislike about sales trainers? Oh, it's not sticky. We've done it before. It doesn't work. We know that we know they had that it's too expensive. So then we think about how do we make sure we overcome those concerns for them. So it can be any industry mate. Absolutely. And yeah,

Mark McInnes:

And I know you're a big, I know you're a big advocate of coaching you know, and, and Selma. I mean these skills, without anybody helping you to get them to stick, you know, the chances of them sticking very, very low. If you don't have somebody to hold, hold your hand across the execution piece. So I'm keen to talk about that if at a later stage. So the second piece was message here. Is that right?

Joe Micallef:

Yup.

Mark McInnes:

Give it

Joe Micallef:

So

Mark McInnes:

How does that work?

Joe Micallef:

as you, and I know it's a, once you figured out that motivation, so whatever it may be, it could simply be that the, the small business that you're targeting is struggling to retain staff and that you offer solutions that can help them retain their staff, grow their staff energize the staff, whatever it may be. you now got to structure a message around that. And as you, and I know it's about using influential language and so make sure your message isn't too long, but it's also not too short. Make sure your message has got a simple call to action. And most importantly, make sure there's a there's that there's value in it that you're demonstrating credibility. Right. And then highlighting that right. There's by contacting me. I'll be able to give you some guidance and ideas on how you can absolutely retain your staff or again, whatever the motivation may be. you and I are fans of, you know, Robert Cialdini and persuasion and using weapons of influence as is our buddy Dean Mannix. that book, that concept, the six weapons of influence makes perfect sense. And I know you talk about in your book as well, So couldn't agree more, your message, your script. Should include that kind of influential language. Like how do you, you know, you can use social proofing. I've been speaking to a number of my clients lately have all been struggling with, retaining staff and we've been sharing some strategies on some simple, these three simple things they can do, you know, to make about. I'd love to share those strategies with you, you know, things like that. Right. You can tell I've learned from the best buddy. So, you know, so simple things like that. but what a lot of people do is they just forget this call to action. You know, even if that, even if that call to action is, you know, Interested in learning more, right. Nothing more. Or this is now your third or fourth attempt, right? I'm a big fan of the prospecting cadence, as you say. And it's not just one attempt, I'll talk about that method in the moment, but yeah, you, you just gotta make sure that your message aligns to the motivation. Once again, it's about them not too long, not too short. And there's some value in it. Even if that means that message includes his information that we've been sharing on, you know, five simple ways or three simple ways to retain your staff or to energize your staff, you know, or you invite them to an event.

Mark McInnes:

So with, are you finding your call to actions? So I found that if I asked too much too early, or if my clients asked too much too earlier, it sort of plans a bit flat. so I'm wondering, you know, what CTOs are you putting in? What were you asking your clients to put in their outreach? And does it vary the foot as you get further along, you know, or do you just tell me a little bit about that if you would mind?

Joe Micallef:

What are we, what do we want? We want a meeting. Is that ultimately what we're trying to do in key? Right? So you've got to create value and you want to be someone that they want to meet. Okay. So so it's a great point, mate, as long as you focus that call to action on is how do I get that meeting, then it can be anything like, you know, interested in your thoughts. do you know, is there any strategies you'd like to share? There's a number of things we, we do. I do. I do try to ask for that meeting upfront. sometimes it's just simple as you know, the, my first cadence may simply be, or prospecting outreach may simply be a LinkedIn connection. Right. So what's the call to action. Let's misconnect on LinkedIn, right? So sometimes the call to action is an invite to an event. Like what are the favors you can do? And there's your call to action. Align to a favor. So the call to action should do a couple of things. One. Boost your credibility. So show that you are someone that can create value and add value, do favors, and then ultimately ask for a meeting. So if you're outreaching four to six times, right? If not more right, but if you're outreaching, then I would say at least half of those, in my opinion, should be a request for a meeting. And I look forward to having a meeting with you.

Mark McInnes:

Okay. Yep. Lovely, lovely, sorry. that might step makes really good sense. And of course I love the weapons of influence stuff. If you're not using them and people learn them, use them, it absolutely increases your response rates and at least it gives you a really easy system to work to so that you know, that what you're asking for is client-based you should almost do a full podcast on weapons of influence. They don't, that's the thing.

Joe Micallef:

especially if you use a combination, right. And that's the whole point. If you use a combination of them, they work. And we do lots of scripting around that.

Mark McInnes:

Yeah, but not all six at once. That's going too far

Joe Micallef:

Now I think I've gotten up to full, I think I've gotten up to four, but.

Mark McInnes:

so last one was method. Right? So hit us with that noise.

Joe Micallef:

Yeah. It's like what you say in your book and you know, folks, if you think I'm, you know, I've been plugging the book, he hasn't paid me for this. I'm a, I'm a true fan. And the reason being is because this stuff works and so does. Using different methods or different channels. Okay. So it's not, you know, one outreach, one and done it doesn't work that way. So create a cadence. And I just mentioned that a LinkedIn connection that's one method, right. Then there's a LinkedIn message. then if then email, if you get their email address like I, I advised them to sign up for my newsletter to get regular free material that they can use to coach their staff. But I always say one of the methods and I believe you say this in your book, mate is a call. Like still make a call, still try and make that connection. And these days I'm inviting them for a zoom meeting and I'm getting more yeses than nos these days. I just did one a few hours ago with with a prospect and happy to have a zoom meeting. It didn't even give him the choice so we can have like, As a coach, it's this kind of energy I want to portray. And I know I can do that better in a zoom meeting as well. So make sure that you've got a number of methods that you're outreaching video messaging has just become so such a valuable tool because your goal is to ultimately get the zoom meeting. Right. So I, you know, I get that but use a number of different methods and, and map it out as you do in your book. And I certainly do as well. I get my clients to map out their 3m strategy. Over eight weeks, right? like two months now, as you recommended. And and it works, it really does, but map it out, think about it now, plan in advance. And then you can, you can bring, you know, new target groups in, at the beginning, right? So you can have four or five target groups going at once. So I'm a big fan of making sure you use different methods.

Mark McInnes:

What's the most unusual method that you're using.

Joe Micallef:

For me, video messaging of late has been, it's not so much even unusual now it's becoming a little bit more of the norm. and I use, I use so I look, there's a, there's a number like LinkedIn has worked well for me. Why. Because my target market lives on LinkedIn. If you're a banker and you're not on LinkedIn, what are you doing? Right. So they live on LinkedIn. So I do a lot of outreach through LinkedIn. and so whether it's connections, whether it's messages, whether it's sharing and inviting them to an event, but I've been using the customized video message and my. Response rate is significantly increased. I there's so many platforms as you know, mate. I'll use . I know you had the bond Juro CEO on one of your podcasts. Brilliant mate. Well done. so I've been using that and then I, my bankers have started using it, but you know, they've got to get confident. They're gonna go, okay, can I do this? Well, you can, you know, so get the motivation and the message, right. And now deliver it in front of a camera. So that's one that I've been using because bankers haven't been seeing it. And the last thing I'll say very quickly about that. Is I've had CEOs of banks, busy CEOs who get that video message and say, can you teach my staff how to do that One of the great things, folks, especially in Mark and I's game is that we're sales coaches. So if we're amusing this prospect in cadence and I've had CEOs go, you know, I love the four touches as Mark calls them touches over the last few weeks. And then this last video, can you teach my people how to do this? So just by following through or developing a prospect in cadences, it's helped me with my credibility as it will. Any banker any salesperson. Right, because it shows that you're genuinely interested in helping a client you're genuinely authentic and a video message does that. What, what are some of the unusual ones you're using.

Mark McInnes:

so I'll come back to that. I'll say, I'll say some different ones, but I love how you said it helps build your authority, but you're reaching out over different channels and being persistent, you know, like I think we lose credibility if you send one email, like, and that's not just sales coaches. Right. So if you're a professional. Do you get like in any sector, if you're a professional it professional business development for a banker, you know, a bank or selling, printing, like, and if you're a professional, you know, that you supply a service for that particular customer. And you give up after one. What does that say about your intent and your, and your desire to help people? Like, not a lot, you know, when I had a client on the phone recently we, we recorded these calls and he was ringing up and the guy was like, man, you're so persistent. And he goes, well, because I know it's going to make a big difference. And I'm passionate about what we help three people just like you last week. And I went. Hold on. Let's go, you know, and, and they could hear him give up because the guy was just so passionate, you know, and that turned into a really good engagement because that prospect was just saying, I don't have time. And of course we know that that's a pretty reflex, you know objection. It doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have time or that they're not interested. Some of the things that I'm using now, the high value clients, Joe Customized landing pages. So you can use like this tool called cards. I double R D dot.com. And you can literally make a personalized landing page for every client. If it's, if, if it's, if they're worth more than 10 grand a year, I think that's worthwhile doing you know, and started to be joining dot. Cara would be the URL. It's got your photo on there. You put your contact details. It literally takes 10 or 15 minutes. You know, and then once you've built that site, you can then send that URL by different methods. So, you know, you can text message that you could email it. You could video message that you could, you know, you could send it rather than a card and send it like, so. Once you built the architecture, but again, it doesn't take very much, I'm not a web designer, but you can use something like that. You can then drag people back to it. And it's got really strong life. I think that's a strong way to get across to people that are a part of our YouTube. I've got a bunch of others as well, but I won't share them all here. It's all you. So speaking of which, Joe, we didn't get to talk about coaching, but I think that's going to provide us with an opportunity for the future. How can people get more, more of you? How do they get any contact? What's the best way from, to learn about Jeremy?

Joe Micallef:

Yeah. So first of all, just reach out on LinkedIn, send me an invitation to connect. And then when you send me an invitation, make sure you put a note there that, Hey, I heard you speak to Mark McInnes on the boss podcast and I'd love to learn more. So Joe Micallef on LinkedIn. I've also got my own business, my own consulting business. And that's the website for that is grow up sales.com grow up sales.com. So there's plenty of information there and plenty of contact details as well. So love to connect. And if you do have a challenge, if anybody out there has got a challenge, regardless of whether you're in the banking industry. And I worked with banks all over the world, which is great, not just the middle Western, the U S but I'm working with a client in Canada and one in Australia at the moment. Feel free to reach out, let me know what your challenges and I'm happy to have a quick conversation about one or two simple strategies that can help you overcome those challenges

Mark McInnes:

Jar. Thanks for being on the podcast. Really appreciate it.

Joe Micallef:

might appreciate you much. Cheers, mate.