Series 13 The Supply Chain Story - Breeds, Beef and Business

Join us this week as we explore the intricacies of finishing cattle, farm management, and market dynamics with Noel and Jo Gall. Discover insights into breed choices, feed strategies, biosecurity, and the impact of market trends on Scottish beef production.

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Here is a link to all episodes of QMS's podcast https://qmscotland.co.uk/news-media/qms-podcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hello, welcome to the QMS Podcast. I'm Kirsten.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

And I'm Robert. We're your host for season 13, taking you on a journey through Scotland's red meat supply chain from farm all the way through to fork.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Across the series, we'll be chatting with farmers, vets, processors, chefs, and lots of people from behind the scenes, sharing real stories, insights, and experiences from across the industry.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Whether you're working in the sector or just interested in where your food comes from, there's something here for you.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

And don't forget to hit subscribe and follow us in socials so you never miss an episode. So we're continuing on the journey of Farm to Fork today. So last time we spoke to store producer Murray McConkey, and he spoke about his cattle and sheep enterprises and his diversification. He's down in Gatehouse of Late, and it only feels right to take the next part of the journey, bring it home, bring it up to Aberdeenshire, and we are speaking about finishing. So today we have got a very dynamic husband and wife team in No and Joel Gull. So welcome onto the podcast, guys. Well hello. Okay, so this time last year you were preparing, I think I can't remember the date actually. I think you were preparing for the RNAS Beef Tech. So you had a big open day um on the farm. What has happened in a year since that big event?

SPEAKER_04 1:32

Well, we're just discussing this the other day how we found any time to do all our other stuff and prepare for that as well, because it's only uh I think it was about two days' time, and so I'm not sure how we did it all last year, to be honest. But we well, we got through it and it was good. It was all enjoyable for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

So we spent a fair bit of time looking for things afterwards that had been tidied away and nobody could remember where they were.

SPEAKER_04 1:56

Yeah, that was that was that that was a thing. Everybody's like, where is the such and such? Oh, yeah, that's hidden there. Where is the this? So everyone was hidden, and then we had the that that was a thing for about two months finding stuff.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

And I think you'd manage to have the earliest ever cut a silage and bucken as well. Have you managed that again this year?

SPEAKER_04 2:14

No, we're cutting today, but it's by this time last year, we'd cut two small cut small cuts to get into the right timing for beef tech. So we'd cut two smaller cuts, but we're cutting today, and it's yeah, it's the grass is there, it's good, works well. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:33

So I wasn't at beef tech and I've not been to I don't actually know much about you guys at all. So, Joe, do you want to run me through, run us through a bit about your broader system? What's whereabouts are you and what do you do?

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Well, we're in um about 40 miles north of Aberdeen, so right out on the point of the northeast of Scotland, and right out in the North Sea, so it's quite a exposed and um it's quite a hard environment a lot of the time, I suppose. It's quite flat. Um, and probably your knowledge's much better to explain more about the system than me.

SPEAKER_04 3:15

Um well, so our general farm system is finishing cuttle. That would be our main core of our business, finishing cattle that we're buying in most weeks of the year, and we're selling most weeks of the year as well. Um, alongside our finishing cuttle, we run a suckler herd, so we don't really graze many finishers, but we'll graze our grass with cows and calves. Um and then through the winter, that same grass will get finishing lambs and some we Joe runs a small flock of North Country Chebiates, um, pure and north country chibiates. So that's the and we you know, and alongside that, which I should have said first, is we grow enough well, we try to grow the most of our arable crops to feed to our finishers, and the same with the straw, you know, all our straw, no straw really leaves. In fact, we'll be a small buyer of straw. Uh and no most of the grain will stay here to be fed. Any grain that is sold would be like maybe wheat or oats will probably buy back some other feed, um, dependent on what it is for different times of year and different prices of probably other straits, I suppose. Yeah, that's the basics of it.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

And roughly in terms of numbers, so obviously the the finishing job is becoming a broadly across the country is becoming a scale game, it's becoming a numbers game.

SPEAKER_04 4:52

What roughly how many are you running in terms of roughly uh about the thousand sort of marks? So we'd kind of put our we've kind of put 16 away a week, which you know, which would take you to over 800, but then there's a few other extra bits go here and there over the year. So it puts us to just around about the thousand um yeah, that sort of number of cattle, and we do about 800 sheep sort of um sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

Yep. And in terms of a how long are we keeping these? Like are you buying them young, keeping them a long time, or is it shorter keep stores you're running?

SPEAKER_04 5:31

Um it's not the shortest of keep stores. I would say we're probably middle range, so you know, we're you know, you probably most of the they'll you know, I'd like to buy them at 500 kilos, but buy like a store cut off at 500. But the reality is that the 500 kilo ones and above are quite in demand and don't often look a little bit too close to their dead weight price potentially. So we're generally buying a little bit less, probably like that 460 to 480s is probably our average. Keeping them, you know, in the past, I'd like to say we could keep them for 100 days, but the reality is if they're 460 kilos, 100 days is not going to be long enough, so they're we're probably pushing closer to 150 days, I would imagine, maybe even a bit more. Um, so yeah, and we're not that smaller stuff, you know. We would have done some of that in the past with grazing cattle, but we haven't done so much of that. Um, just with the way the we've got a few more cows and just changes of grass and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

So if you're buying cattle in quite frequently, what spec are you looking for? What is it that you're asking your buyer to buy?

SPEAKER_04 6:47

Yeah, well, you know, it's no secret that um Andy Ingrid would buy the majority of my cattle. Um, and and our discussions I have with him are well, he knows the spec, and he knows I would like to finish Angus's, but he also the main top line as we speak about his price, and so if I you know and we try or he tries his best to buy them as can as he can and select it over the marks, and that's what we've tried to do for the last number of years, which is at the moment becoming increasingly difficult. But um yeah, it's just uh it's it's it is price-driven, um, and there is a there is a speck of cattle, but it's kind of quite loose if that's sensible. I don't know. We are doing it a little bit with one-dale log you now as well. So we did a we trial with our previous to be the previous to before beef deck, we thought we'd look into it this really bad contract stuff, and so we did some stuff with one-and-level log you, and so we've got uh we've got a few more of them now, and they're a bit harder to finish a wee bit longer, keep maybe kind of a bit smaller, but um yeah, quite especially in the climate, we've just seen the contract prices there, so that's it does feel kind of right at the moment, whereas this time last year it felt completely completely wrong. So um a bit of swings around.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

So what's the balance then? What how much wagyu have you got to prime cattle?

SPEAKER_04 8:28

Uh I think maybe uh I don't know the exact numbers. Maybe I think maybe 15% of them maybe could be Wagyu now. Um and I'm not sure what we're gonna go with that. It's quite tricky to gauge, but it does feel kind of like the contract price stuff, you know. Um but they it's just to get a you know, a supply and stuff as well, it's just to get it all out of the out of the you know, out of the system, like out of there. They've got a system that they move on from you know from a rearer to grazer, rearer to like a finisher, and so it just depends on when the rearer grazer wants to get rid of them and what sort of size they are. So it it's just a bit it's just a different thing. If you want them tomorrow, you can't go get them tomorrow. You know, you need to just wait for the kind of wait for the cattle to come online, sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

So it's interesting having having both. I know there's quite a lot of people in this area that have gone right down that that route and they're 100% working with with a Warrendale and other other companies like it. I it's interesting to see in terms of you know if you're if you're if you were half and half, you're half right and half wrong, regardless of what the trade does. Um so it's I think I think it's a nice insurance policy and a nice certainly a good system, it's an interesting one to follow and yeah and see where it see how it evolves.

SPEAKER_04 10:01

Yeah, it's um it is interesting, and you know, the first ruggies we took home, I think my dad's eyes is we popped out his sockets of his you know, he's been used to keeping different looking cattle to that, and so was I to be honest. And you know, I think the first ones we took home we grazed them and they were walking, you know, they'd as good as walk through the railings because they weren't you know, our system isn't made for for narrow wag, you know, and uh I don't think anybody at Warrendale will be annoyed to hear me saying they're a bit narrow when they come home, but they were walking through railings because they were so small. Um, but you know, we kept them a year, maybe they grazed, and then we kept them maybe nearly a year and a bit, and you know, they did as good as anything else, to be honest. Um, I was quite happy with them, so um, but yeah, not so nicer than I maybe.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

Digressing maybe away from your system here, but you were saying with the Wagyu that you've got your kind of contract price. How do you think going forward? Because when margins are so tight for finishing cattle, what's your thoughts on how we get a kind of fair price constantly throughout the year for beef cattle?

SPEAKER_04 11:18

As in finished beef, yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I think unfortunately, you know, as if you're in it, you know, I suppose when we're buying, it's a it's you know it's supply and demand, and the same on when we're selling, and so at the moment, um there doesn't see the demand for the prime cuts or the high-end cuts, the Sarah Lines of Phillips of Ribbay's the the demand isn't there for for that prime area, and so the you know the put the the guys that are killing them are are cutting back their kill because that there's no demand, and now I think that's a few different reasons for that, but um which we don't really know. So, unfortunately, that's a supply and demand thing, and the same goes for the other end. You know, when we were trying to buy them, it could it's it should be supply and demand as well. So how how much you want to interfere with that system is quite tricky, I suppose. Um, but you know, probably on the two years this year and last year, then I think that'll it'll just be very average by the time you know it'll be average, it'll be average of the year before. So it was a you know, it was quite evidently a good year last one, and this is gonna be it's not so great at the moment. Um, but it'll probably square itself up, I would guess.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Well, I think the price rose significantly for the customer, didn't it? End customers, so I guess those the prime cuts, it was bound to have to to to tail off or come kind of full circle because people probably can't afford to pay that.

SPEAKER_04 12:59

Yeah, that and the price of fuel, I think that you know, fuel and stuff at the pump. You know, if you speak to anybody uh in the industry, they're just saying the gut the consumer isn't buying it in the supermarket, and so if it takes them an extra 30 or 40 quid to fill the car, am I gonna spend it on chicken pork or high-end fillet or ribeye or sirline or whatever you want to call it, and they are trading, you know, trading down to stew and steak or mints or whatever it is instead of there, and so that so the the whole animal's not getting sold, which is you know makes it very tricky for the pre for the packers or something, I suppose.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

And I suppose it's nothing we've not seen before, you know, when there is a financial downturn, habits change, shopping habits change, and and we have to be aware as well when when we go to the supermarket or go out for tea or whatever, you know, our first strings are tighter and ever prices easily, it's not just the it's obviously the general public that we're feeding, but but you feel it when you're out for tea as well. That maybe you're on the state, maybe you have something you you go down so you can have an extra beer or whatever. Like it's and we're in a very interesting time. And certainly going back to the supply and demand story. As a store producer, supply and demand suited me down to the ground up till this, you know, even including this spring, that we had a product that was in short supply that enthusiastic finishers were desperate to buy, which was you know was phenomenal. I just I'm not just sure where we're at for this back end or into next spring. I suppose it's water to go under the bridge between now and then the job.

SPEAKER_04 14:44

There is, and I think what there also is going on is you know, I think the supply and the the the production of beef calves in Scotland and England or you know in the UK as a whole is the same as it was this time last year because you know maybe a slightly back of any so you know this the shortage of beef that rose it to above seven pound, that hasn't really changed, I don't think. You know, there's not the the cattle on the you know the cows on the ground or the livestock on the ground are still the same, so it's demand that's dropped off, it's not because it's it's not supply. Supply is the same, you know, generally, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

So if you think back then to the fact that you're you're buying in cattle pretty much every week, talk us through your biosecurity. What what does it look like when those cattle are coming on?

SPEAKER_04 15:38

Well, we've discussed this before, Kirsten, so you know, but um yeah, so biosecurity is tricky. Like, you know, the reality of of biosecurity is quite tricky, so we can only fend it off, I suppose, because we are buying from different places. So in the winter, you know, we're not not saying this is all right, but we don't graze cattle beside our cows in theory. So that would be try, you know, try to keep the cows separate if we can. So through the winter, the cows are on a different holding or a different farmsteading, and then any cattle that we take home, you know, all year we'll take home and we'll stay, maybe uh we might be in a somewhere for about a week, and then we'll vaccinate everything. So, you know, we we were quite robust on vaccinations. We'll uh I don't have it to hand, but you know, the cost of it is in comparison to the price of the animal, I always felt was quite quite cheap. So in the last maybe three or two to three years, we've probably ramped that up even more, and just and it's what I would call an insurance policy. So you know, you get quite a sizable bill for the vet every month, but it's probably still not the price of a store beast. Um, but as a rule, we know what we shouldn't have if we've vaccinated. Um, you know, the IBR, intranasal, you know, pneumonia is a big one, and then a warmer and a flucoside is generally about the uh about the stretch of it.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

I think that saying it's an insurance is actually a nice way to explain it, there, isn't it? Because the the cost of those vaccines, say they're even £20 or £30, it is nothing compared to what you what a loss is.

SPEAKER_04 17:27

Yeah, the loss is the biggest one, you know, and the loss is the one that you see, but the other loss is the loss in growth. You don't really see that until the day you sell them. So you and if they've been not well because of a pneumonia, for instance, or they've got worms, you know, for pretty basic stuff and they're not thriving, then they're they you know they're loss already, they're making a loss already as well. Um you know the one the dead one is the one the loss you see. The other ones aren't the other ones aren't.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

The other loss you don't see is you know, we can't we don't value time, but if you looked at if you did put a value in your time, see even those animals that you do get better, you know, the pneumonia case, the lameness case, the whatever the problem is, the time that's spent on that individual daily is probably not far off the time you spend on the rest of them for the day. You know, it's colossal, and we don't have there's not enough support, there's not enough staff out there anymore. We're all running harder, running more stock, and these lame ducks that take up a lot of time are a huge cost, a huge burden on the business. Yeah, yeah, that's correct.

SPEAKER_04 18:38

Right, definitely. It's just the kind of you know, you're gonna get the lame ones, whatever you do with vaccinations, you're gonna get it, and you just you know we just have to try and keep them all as healthy as you can through different different methods, or not different methods, but diff whatever you can to do it um within time restraints, sort of sort of thing, and you know enough with it.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Yeah, so see on that in terms of so obviously Andy's buying most of what you're or buying them for you. Yeah, how much of a the spec so we know he knows what you're looking for in terms of weights and breeds, and do you go into places that you want to get cattle from again and do you go to places you don't want them from? Do you or is it driven by price info?

SPEAKER_04 19:28

I uh uh try generally to leave quite broad brush because if you start going into real hard specifics and you want to get the numbers out and you want them at a price you want if you want the number, you know, a certain amount and you want them at a certain price, if you then start specifying and then I want to buy them for there because we'll have one bad batch for there, or I don't want to buy them there because such and such, it bec becomes probably quite tricky, you know, for the buyer. You know, it's quite tricky for him to do that as well.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

So well, it's like anything else, the more specific you are and the more demands you make, the more expensive something is. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:05

And I suppose there probably comes a time if you're going to do that to him, you'd be better to go yourself, you know. If you're gonna be so you have to be, you know, we've got quite a good understanding, uh and you've a good man buying them too.

SPEAKER_04 20:18

Yeah, yeah. He's he's brilliant for that job, so you just he knows a bit about the job. He knows more than I'll know, so leave it, you know, we do our bit and uh and he does his bitty, you know, and I think that works probably quite well. I think as you speak about time, you know, if I wanted to go and do that job, I'd have to be prepared to go to a number of auction marks every week and not buy a single beast, you know, which or for myself, which would seem or not not buy a single one, or be pushed into buying some because I was there, I suppose would be the other end of the scale.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Um time's the most valuable thing, you know. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:01

So yeah, we'd we try to find it. I think uh I just do what we can do here and make the best of that, and then hopefully Andy can do the other side for me.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

And see, on on the so the Warrendale cattle will obviously be mostly dairy bread. Are you 100% 100% dairy bread? Yeah, and are you on the rest of your business, so the Anguses and things, are you happy to buy dairy dairy bread cattle as well? Are you mostly looking for that?

SPEAKER_04 21:31

Well, we wouldn't really, it's hard to know if they're dairy bread or not, you know, because they're coming, you know, a lot of them, a lot of these dairy bread stuff are as nearly as good as the is the is the beef bread stuff nearly, you know, they they're using very good genetics. Um from art to say for our you know, if you took Angus for an example, they'd be using great sire great sires, and so it's hard and probably a big cow, you know, out of the big holstein cow. probably so you can get some big on you know big animals and you think is that out of a dairy don't really know we don't know it might be twenty twenty months old by the time it turns up here it doesn't look like it came from a dairy yeah and certainly when you see it in a hook you'll uh you most you'll not know it yeah definitely not know so um yeah the dairy's got a lot to the dairy now has a lot to um you know it's got a lot of work uh not a lot a lot of work to do but it's it's producing a lot of cars it's got a lot to offer to keep the to keep the cattle job going in in Scotland like you know it's a big it's a big part of it now. Yeah it's actually amazing to think the so over the last probably ten years or so the sex semen things really come to life and there's a serious amount of you know if you look at a dairy farmer's books store sales are now a huge part of their income but yeah I think I'm sure we're now at a stage where we've we've done that there's not many spare dairy uteruses out there to produce any more beef calves so that they're beef stories yeah we saw um the Wabu guys are now sex semen the opposite way so they'll sex semen for for for male calves which I didn't know well you know it's obvious that you could do it if you can do it to females to you know so they use female or the dairy man will use females female sex semen for doing his uh to get his replacements and then once that's finished they'll go because the male ones are going to be a bit stronger and a better store so he'll then go to male sex semen after that and I warbue male sex semen.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

So I'm sure they can do that for all breeds probably to get they can and it is there it's just the fact the demand's not quite high enough yet to make it cheap enough to okay to really exploit it. You know certainly for for pedigree stuff and things it's it it's well within the price bracket but yeah a for a commercial suckler guy we're not maybe just quite we're on the brink of it you know there's certainly some people using it but the more the more people that get involved with it the more there'll be yeah no it was something I hadn't really thought about before but I heard that the other day I'd certainly rather sell a pen angus a big pen angus bullocks than a wee penangus heifers yeah yeah yeah I would I would both believe that right so makes sense and when you're buying in then are you are you sex specific are you looking for steers or are you buying heifers?

SPEAKER_04 24:31

No the the broad brush custom the broad brush you get twice as many options if you buy stores add heifers stocks add heifers sorry stores and heifers you get twice as many options so and no in that in and sometimes I think that's probably quite good when you look in a pen you're like oh actually these ones have finished a bit quicker oh it's an angus heifer so she's away a bit quicker and then there might be her uh but another uh a stot next to her which needs a while longer and might be a bit bigger so it's a it's a it's a mix again I don't think it seems to it doesn't seem to once they're in a pen here they kind of stay as a group and so I think they get mixed when they come off the lorry or from the market in a few different places and then they stay as a group after that um so I don't think it seems to m make a lot of difference. I'm sure it makes a little bit of difference but um for management it doesn't seem to be it seems to be fine.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

So you're keeping them then mixed steers and heifers together so that that that batch effectively coming home in that week that they can then go through it all at the same time and then hopefully it makes it easier for loading and such like when it comes to the end but what does that mean for feeding like do you have to adjust it at all for steers heifers or they're just in that batch and that's where they are no no we're feed you know we're feeding them we're feeding them a high a high energy diet you know basically what it is a high energy diet and so they're all getting fed the same and you know you'll be rightly so there's probably some heifers in there that will go fat too quick on that system but if you were to go and spend all the time moving one to somewhere else to put it to slow it down for a little bit you'd have a lot of mixing so I try where we try not to mix in him you know they'll say there's 40 into a pen or around about that they'll stay that 48 until we pick out fat and then say this is the ideal world it doesn't happen like this say there's 40 next door that were a week or so behind them then we'll maybe pick out of there and once they're both at a point where there's say 20 in them we can merge them together and then that'll they won't mix they shouldn't generally speak it's not always happens but generally they won't mix again if we can get away with it and I think that's so they only get one mix at home and I think that's probably quite good for you know just them just water production for growth rates as well you know mainly it saves that extra check I guess doesn't it that they're they're not having to re-establish hierarchy and pens or the the kind of know who's who's the boss who's the weak one the know um their surroundings as well which is quite good. So it's all about the same speaking about then nutrition you're obviously growing a lot of your own cereals what else is making up that diet um so it'll be you know in the end it'll be quite heavily barley based so that's you know growing a lot of barley growing barley for that job um we'll put in pot ale or maize syrup um depending on availability we'll put in straw for the you know to bind all together a mineral generally we've been feeding a percentage of tatties and at the moment we're going quite heavy on the tatties because they're quite available um so we're feeding a lot of tatties at the moment but we would all I would I try to always feed tatties even if they're just on the number of being the right number like cost cost per per per like you know if you say a ton of tatties is worth uh you know five to one sort of thing and you say oh well that that looks a bit expensive compared to barley but even if they look a bit expensive I'll still put in a little bit because I think it's they they like it to eat it makes them what you know they like a tattoo to eat and puts a bit of moisture into the feed all the time as well because it can be a bit dry.

SPEAKER_04 28:53

And we'll make you know we're obviously we're making silage just now and we'll put silage in those diets so it'll be a similar diet what we call our starter diet to what everything else is getting but we just double it up with silage for a week or so and then we just then drop the silage slowly drop the silage out and once we get it onto what we would call our full ration and it seems to work. It seems to be a safe way a safe way to get them on if on a high energy diet I think you're you're very well placed with where you are that you have that availability of broctatties and I don't know like screenings and there is quite a lot of waste products quite handily available for where you are yeah yeah we did we used to do a fair bit of biscuit meal but that seems to I'm not sure why but that's kind of you're laughing because you ought to feed it to your tucks it's a secret is it secret ingredient so we used to years before I'd bought quite a bit of biscuit meal but I'm not sure what's happening but it doesn't seem to be competitive and like I'm not sure how that all works but like it looked always used to look competitive to price to barley but it doesn't seem to at the moment I don't know if they're not making so much or it's wheat price is a bit more expensive than barley so so there's no biscuit meal at the moment maybe you have to go and get some deep you just never know what's happening with digesters and other sources of it as well yeah we've seen a bit of that over the last few years digesters have been you know there was a great supply of pot ale and draft um for years and years and that was probably too easy for people in the area to be feeding it and um and it just disappeared but there is rumors that it's on the turn and there's some um like some digesters weren't happy because they weren't getting a supply all the time and they're like well it's a distillery it's turned off so we don't have any and the guy that the the digester or the AD plant whatever it was is like oh no but we need it we've 365 days well unfortunately there's no supply so there won't be and there's been I've heard a lot of rumors of that going on whereas I'd imagine Mr. Beef farmers like don't worry we'll take it we'll take it back.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

But we've got a plastic cheek we can deal with yeah so yeah that's a bit you know that's been a bit frustrating but it seems there is there does seem to be other things well we that may we're taking maize out of uh Edinburgh North British is it North British distilleries so they seem to be producing more at the moment I don't know it's it's nice though the way that the large proportion of your feed is very very local so when we talk when we talk about Scottish beef being a sustainable protein source having everything produced your straw is produced in the holding the majority of your feed is probably within 20 miles isn't it oh yeah well you know tartys are coming through a little bit further away whiles you know the majority of what we are feeding to our animals is home produced you know that you know there's not much you need by minerals obviously in in okay the pot ale but that's in percentage wise it's quite a small amount of volume of what we're feeding in a year so you know I'm not trying to suggest I'm some sort of specialist regenerative farmer but like that's what we're you know we everything that we're putting putting in to those animals is is generally staying on our farm we're spreading it all back on um yeah I'm not I'm not I'm not a regen farmer as such there'll be there will be bits of what you do that we can learn from the regen world and we can you know we're we're all we're all looking with interest and it's about picking the wee bits off the menu from we need the extreme regen guys to to show us the wee bits and pieces.

SPEAKER_04 33:15

Yeah I think that's right. So see when it comes to so obviously at your finished animal where are you killing them where are they going generally um yeah they're mostly going to keep back at Aberdeen to Markdosh Donald and so that's the majority of them are going there. And as I've said before and like last year you know we've had a good relationship with them for years so um I've got no reason to be doing it indifferent at the moment um they're quite you know they're pretty close and tariff is a tariffs would be slightly closer with Morrisons and then it's then the next closest is to Aberdeen so yeah that's where the majority of them are going.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

And then what about so there's obviously there's another enterprise we haven't talked about there's a diversification can you tell us a wee bit about your hotel story well we bought the hotel I'm uh we got married in 2013 and at that time I was have always worked in events and hospitality and a this hotel which a I had once been at the night before or the night of New Dear show I think which was a place that had a great reputation in the area and it had people had quite you could tell that people in this area from as an incomer had quite a fondness for you know it's a the whole idea it's called saplin Bray the whole idea of Saplin Bray so it came on the market in 2015 when we had a nearly one year old little boy and we managed to get finance together and we bought it and opened so we got the keys November and we opened in December for Christmas. So that was the very end of 2015 so that's we've just uh passed our 10 year milestone last December which was felt like quite a milestone actually felt like 20 felt like 20 uh yeah it was a it was a genuine milestone yes it was it was so I think at the start I said I'll do 10 years but I'm still there we're still there so just another team yeah um and are you putting your own product into the hotel is that part of the story we do lambs so we have our own lamb I mean apart from a few you know if we're at run into the end of a menu we might have to buy some cuts if we've run out of our own lambs but uh we're generally self sus uh we're self-sufficient with lamb. Uh we have done cattle a few times but you would need to have a shed full of freezers because you know we can sell maybe two sirloins a week maybe hardly but nearly um and then you're just left with freezer fulls of mince and dice and so it's quite it's more of a a difficult thing to be self self-sufficient with beef. But we obviously buy as much as we can locally and um you know we're fully fully supportive of all of those things and and most certainly because and I think maybe farmers have to remember that a lot of the time is that you shouldn't support of course you should support local but generally Scottish produce for almost anything is the just about the best in the world that you can get so you're buying you're buying the best thing anyway even if your principle is because it's local and you know when I worked away in London and places like that you've realized how sought after Scotch beef lamb seafood all these things are so you know it is important to celebrate and sometimes you do have to pay a wee bit more for it but you are paying for quality.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

Yeah it's a very very good answer and it actually highlights the bit the bit about you know anybody that's putting all of their own beef through a farm shop or a restaurant or a you have to change that menu so often to try and use up all the you know the carcass palette story is a nightmare whether it's as a butcher shop as a restaurant you know it's it's very difficult to sort all that out and I think we learned that a lot we all got eyes opened in COVID when obviously the hospitality sector at one stage was completely closed and the price of beef was shooting up because the sun was out everybody was having barbecues and everybody was buying steak and you know we realized a bit more about where you know provenance where that stuff's actually coming from that actually the supermarket was getting felt us prior to COVID and then we realized that actually it's down to carcass balance and down to hospitalities as much as anything.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Yeah yeah and I think in the last five to ten years a lot you know in terms of lamb we wouldn't really be left with anything because something like a shoulder is now very you know people are cotton on to the fact of what a great thing that is to eat you know when it's a slow cooked shoulder and that's something we can sell really easily it's not that people would always be looking for a loin and the same with beef you know brisket shin all these things it have definitely become more fashionable. I suppose it depends on the type of thing you know if we were selling loads and loads of burgers maybe you would go through more mints but it's just like you say the balance of of what you're going to consume. As the cost of living has increased as well and people are feeling the pinch have you seen any trends of what people are choosing off the menu compared to normal or have you changed your menu to to try and help people um I would say that um it's difficult to remember now but if you go back to I think it was 2024 and I think that is when in the media it was the absolute height of we're in a cost of living crisis and that was the really wet winter wet spring and and I think everybody was depressed and it was grim like it was a really bad it was a really bad start to the year in terms of you know historically the hotels always had quite a good local trade and quite a busy you know even during the week we would have quite a busy bustling lunch trade and that spring that winter and spring that just absolutely fell away um there wasn't a spring that yeah well there wasn't a spring no but terrible and I think the things combined you know to to actually it was just like a general feeling of human nature that nobody had any enthusiasm to go out. But since then I would say it's picked up and at the moment even through that the price of beef we we don't have a big menu we only ever have one steak on our menu whether it's our choice whether it's Sterling or Rabai um so no I don't think we have seen a trend but the trend that maybe we are seeing is that different a lot of hospitality businesses have closed so therefore maybe there's less choice for for the consumer to to decide to go so maybe that's you know had an effect on an effect on us.

SPEAKER_04 41:06

I think I think I well we have spoken that before that people that are going out to have their tea for whatever reason but you see a lot of that as people are coming to the hotel because it's somebody's birthday it's somebody's graduate you know an event a special occasion which means that they are quite keen to spend money on or not keen but you know they're not they're more willing to spend it on a good product and so they're more willing to buy their beef at that point in the week so you don't really notice a downturn in beef sales because we've spoken that already and you says well I don't truly see it.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

We haven't I don't think we've seen that I think the one thing in terms of meat that you would say is that uh we try to near we try to always have lamb on our menu if we can and we'll all we can always sell lamb even though people in Scotland talk about people don't Scottish people don't like lamb um when it's on offer I think it is actually popular. I think it's maybe that people in Scotland are not keen on cooking lamb because it is interesting how many people say to you well I always I always have lamb when I come because I don't cook it at home.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

That's interesting isn't it and it's well just you wonder how much as they've heard their the generation before them say that. You know have have they tried it?

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Because does it smell I don't think it smells when you cook it I've got an old friend who says it's because his generation were brought up on boiled mutton or something got a half of that I think it's a thing it's the it's maybe harder to get right you know mince and steak and things taste like beef is fine.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

If you get lamb wrong if it's in the wrong hands overcooked undercooked it's maybe the one you do pay the chef to do if you're not as experienced with it says me who I don't really do the cooking.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

No I don't actually think that's true. I think I think things like shoulder and if you buy a loin or lamb mince the same I think I don't actually think it is I think it's maybe just an idea of it. You know it's just the the perception that it's more difficult because it's less well known but um it is a really interesting thing why English people would always choose lamb for a special occasion and Scottish people would always choose beef. You know it is it's it's interesting how that came about.

SPEAKER_02 43:42

I think reading the room though in terms of the economics of the job I think we should be encouraging more people to eat beef at the moment's okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

Yeah at the moment And when we're s when we're speaking about lamb here, is it your now I know um Joe you are very Keen supporter of your chevy it flock. So is it the cheviots that are going through the hotel, or you're buying in lambs as well, aren't you? Is it a bit of a mix between the the two that are going, or are you going for the ultimate wanting to hear this hear the feedback of how how your lamb is is tasting and get that feedback from the pretty much all TV at lamb.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Whether it's you know at the end of the summer that you know it's a things that are not gonna make it as a as to sell as a breeding female or to sell as a breeding tup, and as the as the year goes around, that's what gets sold off. We don't we don't cut any la cut any tuplams, so it's the tup lambs as the year goes around that go it well, obviously any females that are definitely not gonna make it come the back end, but then after that would be yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

And then you're you're buying in. Did you say at the start was it 800 lambs you're buying in?

SPEAKER_04 45:02

About there something, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

Um and they are they're coming in as stores to finish.

SPEAKER_04 45:09

Stores to finish, uh, and to finish probably that slightly later market, like that March, probably you might get a few away in February, but really it's March and April, probably. Um onto some well, onto stubble neeps after winter barley. The last few years we've done a bit of that, and I had a complete tried some real needs last year, which I failed at in completely. They were all they were all looking bonny, and then I came back the next day and they were they weren't gone. Fucking they robbed me. I think the moth and the beetle had done been the been the thief. So I've uh chapped the idea of uh leaps, genuine real leaps, and we've got some fodder beat in this year. On and I've watched your podcast on how to grow it, or not podcast, your tutorial, Kirsten.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

She makes it look very simple, doesn't she?

SPEAKER_01 46:05

Do you want the good news or the bad news? No.

SPEAKER_03 46:08

Well, I the the bad news I already know that it's gonna cost me a fortune to grow them.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

Um, no, a different bad news, I'm afraid.

SPEAKER_03 46:18

Oh, what more bad news?

SPEAKER_01 46:22

Lambs, lambs don't tend to finish on fodder beet as well as they do on me. I'm aware of that.

SPEAKER_04 46:27

I just I don't need them to finish on it, I just need them to be eating it. Um I think I have a yeah, we can uh we still grow a bit of oats, so um the oats are a good supplement at the same time. I think I'm gonna conjure up a ration when they're on the fodder beet to be on an oat diet at the same time, oat and protein. Yeah, right. I need protein at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

Yeah, you'll need your additional protein.

SPEAKER_04 46:56

And um just thought I need to go and check them after the after I go. See if nobody's been away with them yet.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

The the fact is well, they've got a bit of a thicker leaf, and it's like it's almost a bit waxier, so the beastie doesn't tend to enjoy it as much as they enjoy the meep, so you might you might get off without the beastie attacking that.

SPEAKER_04 47:19

The main reason for growing them, somebody told me that exact same thing. So the the beastie doesn't want the beasties generally don't like them as well. I'm sold, I'm in.

SPEAKER_02 47:27

So we had our we had our first proper fodder beet experience last year, and I thoroughly enjoyed growing fodder beet. Once once you get out of the scary bit at the start, I you know I thoroughly enjoyed growing it and I really enjoyed feeding it on all of the dry days. The odd stinking white day was a different job, but no, it's an amazing job. That was to cow to suck their cows actually. So that was the winter plant in the field following kale the previous year, so it worked in worked in really nice. We're not growing it this year, but we'll certainly be back into it the year after or the next few years anyway.

SPEAKER_04 48:06

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm I was more than I was quite keen to see what like it was. Um the word was it was slightly hardier, maybe a bit more expensive to grow, but slightly hardier. So it can't be any more expensive than the neeps I grew last year, because I think there's only one survived.

SPEAKER_02 48:27

It depends how you view it. If you if you cost it per acre or cost it per ton of dry matter, it's either the dearest or the cheapest crop you'll grow.

SPEAKER_04 48:35

Okay. I will like the last year I costed it per that single leap, you know. Yeah, yeah. It's the dearest turnip in the world. So it's the most expensive meat in the country, that least.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

And are you still uh put putting in then your catch crops? So after your winter crop comes off, you're you're stitching in something for the lambs as well, are you?

SPEAKER_04 48:55

Yeah, right. That's stubble neaps what we're what we would call a stubble meat. And you know, they're not a huge yielder, but they're pretty easy growing. Um and last year they were you know winter barley was off pretty early, so they're in, you know, they're all in in July, and they were yeah, there was a there's a lot of bulk there, but it's just a it's just enough to store, you know, it's really just store in a lamb when the grass is run out.

SPEAKER_01 49:20

Um they're very low cost to establish, they're they're a very cheap crop, but you're also you're getting so many returns off it as well, because obviously your your lambs are using up that arable ground, so you're getting two crops off of off of the same field, but you're also returning that nutrients, which which is then giving you a better crop again next year.

SPEAKER_04 49:42

You might say it's regen and more double regen, yeah. Yeah, another regen. No, I think there is a there is something in it, I think, and it's it just you just to watch, you know. We're still trying to we're growing bits of LC vape as well. We just to watch for being a bit too heavy on the brassicas sort of thing, which is probably actually why this the fodder beats will be a bit a bit easier, maybe. We're not getting it, we won't get the same bother with club roots and stuff, so um, yeah, I think I know.

SPEAKER_02 50:16

Yeah, my regen comment was tongue in cheek. Like, I think it is it is definitely from a soil health perspective. It's the if you can get animals back on an arable field and get a living root in that ground, there's no question about it, it's gonna be better all around.

SPEAKER_04 50:31

Yeah, no, I do I do believe that as well. I think you're right. Like, I think that is that is true.

SPEAKER_02 50:38

It's good, just conscious of time, but thinking back to um where we're at just now. So if we go back to finishing cattle, what's obviously the economics of the job is changing. What's what's your thoughts looking forward? Are you optimistic? Are we going for it, or are you what's uh have you any indications of what we're shooting for at the moment?

SPEAKER_04 51:04

No, I think it's it's it's really hard to know at the moment. And um uh was that a thing last week, and so you know what we really need to wish for here, which I never really thought I'd ever say, is we need to wish for England football team to be in a final and lose. But that's me, and it to be really hot in summer is hot at the same time. So, all you know, the whole of England is chewing up steaks like it's going out of fashion, barbecuing it, watching the football right into the final, and then you know, if they lost in the final, well that would be a disaster.

SPEAKER_02 51:41

That is a controversial. I don't know if I might be happy, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:48

Basically, Robert, we're needing people to eat steaks, and once people start eating steaks again, the whole carcass ball into we spoke about is gonna square up again. And I'm not saying the price is gonna go flying up because I don't think it should, and then you know it can recover a bit, but this seven pound whatever it was a kilo was evidently unsustainable. We've seen it, so um so no things leveling out a little bit would be great, but yeah, I'll stand by my first comment.

SPEAKER_02 52:19

Yeah, and we could also hope for Scotland to do really well as well, couldn't we? That could work.

SPEAKER_04 52:24

Yeah, well that well, you know, listen, they could get the if it's a Scotland England final, that'd be even better, and there'd be a lot of steaks eaten then. Yeah, that was um we were at a meeting last week, and that was uh there was a bit of chat about that. That's not not that's not never mind what Trump does. It's not my well, you know, that's the you know, the global global stuff is the same, it's the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 52:50

Is that is it not fair to say though that's pretty much the commentary for every May? Is it depends what barbecue season is going to do, what if the sun comes out, demand goes up. There's always a bit of a blip at the start of the year, and it just takes a while to get going, and if we do get that good summer, which we're hopefully after a poorer spring, hopefully we're due a summer. Yeah, yeah, it maybe does it does help the thing out. And I suppose all we can do is is hope that the thing comes good.

SPEAKER_04 53:19

Yeah. If you look back to what we were getting cuttle price in COVID, I remember trying to sell cattle in Covid, and you couldn't sell them the very first weeks because McDonald's shut down all you know, all these big consumers of beef all instantly shut down. They didn't know what was going on, and the price of cutle went through the floor. It was like three. I think I remember when bulls to sell in were getting a bid £3.30 a kilo for bulls. You know, it's only um only five five or six years ago that number. Um, so you know, it's we're in a lot better place than was okay. The cost of all went up at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 54:02

And the thing that drove it up to start with was everybody had to stay at home and the sun came out and they all had barbecues in their garden.

SPEAKER_05 54:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:11

So you know your you know your buy-in cost, you don't know your end price. Do you know your cost of production so you can kind of keep an eye on what the next buying price looks like?

SPEAKER_04 54:27

I've got a good idea of it. I don't know offhand at the moment, but I know you know what our you know, we've got a good idea of our feed costs, but then you know, unfortunately, the moment if it you want to go and put a price of barley into your ration number, you know, so it's the same old story. Do you want to put in the price of barley at the cost you think it costs you to produce it or the cost that you could have sold it for? Now at the moment, we're all aware that none of those prices are probably they're not the same number, um, or they're not nobody, you know, 125 or 100, you know, this rumoured price of feed barley at harvest, you know, into 120s, 130s, you know, it's a 145 just now, it's not it's not cost of production. Um so it becomes tricky to. I think we'd I try to see it as a whole farm job sort of thing. You know, we're gonna put this into and I think you see it as a long term as well. Um cursely like the jumping in and out of finishing cut all we'll be pretty brave.

SPEAKER_01 55:35

I think you have to cost it at at the opportunity cost, the cost that you would be selling it at. But then it's circular, I guess, isn't it? And that you're you're using your own grain, so you have a handle on the cost of that. You you can potentially make or have some cutbacks or reduce fertilizers by using your mucks, and that you know you've you've got a bigger control. The fact that that you're growing it, you're you're producing the straw, which again very much helps. You're seeing the straw all the way through, that you then obviously get the fertiliser cheaper as well. The fact that you've got your kind of cheaper inputs in your your feeds if you're managing to get broccatis and such like so it it does mean that you've got more control than somebody that's maybe farming in a different area that that doesn't doesn't have as such access as you do.

SPEAKER_04 56:30

Potentially, potentially, but I'll just think in you know, I said that just now. I remember whatever what year was that um barley wheat went to 300 pounds a ton. Well, barley in the area was over 300 pound a ton, you know, and so that year we're like, what are we gonna do now? So the numbers didn't stack that year either. You know, if you know, if I had to take my opportunity cost and you've got a thousand ton of grain sitting in your shed and you're like, well, it's all worth 300 pound a ton, let's just stop finishing cattle and sell the grain. Um it becomes tricky to so you know you can say opportunity cost, but if you always go on opportunity cost, you're probably gonna try and get you're gonna you're gonna go in and out of doing something all the time, and I think we're all aware that try to get in and out quickly. Yes, getting getting out, getting out's easy, but you only do it once. You know, there's no road back. So, yeah, you know, I do look at the price of the spot market for grain and what it you know and you can make decisions on it. But it's quite tricky to do that at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 57:41

And cash flow as well, when you're used to having cattle coming off on off, you know that cash flow spread is there and it's working for the business. Whereas if you sell all your grain at one time, then then does the whole business work effectively too?

SPEAKER_04 57:56

Well, probably that year that at a £300 a ton, it probably would have worked quite quite fine, to be honest. But you would have then had to pick a day when you want to start buying cattle again or feeding barley again or what you want to do, and that would have been you know that's what it would be tricky, and that's the old hindsight game, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 58:16

Um so obviously, after we're going along the journey along the supply chain, is there anything that you guys would be keen to ask of the processors? So anything you don't understand or anything that you maybe a frustration with processes, is there anything you would want to us to ask on your behalf?

SPEAKER_00 58:36

As in the meat trade, as in wholesalers and butchers, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:43

Yeah, well, I've had discussions with guys before about you know long-term contracts with finishing cattle, and they seem reluctant to do it, and I'm not a hundred percent I don't a hundred percent understand it when I'm sure they've got a six-month contract with Tesco, McDonald's, you know, all the the people, but they seem to be reluctant, you know, and so we've discussed that before, but seems to be uh some some businesses, some some supplier, not suppliers, some slaughterhouses seem to be doing bits of that and others don't, um for various reasons, I suppose, on their own on their own part.

SPEAKER_02 59:31

Um yeah, it certainly works well in other sectors and knocks the highs and the lows out and leaves you with a workable price. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:43

Um I don't know, I don't have other questions for I suppose you know we we haven't heart on that, and that's part of your thing, you know, eating quality and consistency of the beef product. That's a whole different, whole different day.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

But that's you know, a consistent you find that in the sometimes, yeah, you get inconsistency in steaks and you just you just have to you know accept that that sometimes you get a steak that's you sometimes do get a sirline that's um grizzly, and there's no way of knowing that necessarily before it's cooked. Um you'll get one end or whatever that's I don't know, do they have intentions to to have some sort of scanning technology or you know that can pick these things up? Um because that's definitely a downside, I would say. Um because when you get that as a as a in hospitality, you just you kind of just have to take off the bill because you know there's nothing you can really do about that. You have to accept that that's the case, so it is top.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:01

It's interesting because you were speaking about Scotch being the best in the world, and then we have these kind of inconsistencies, don't we? Then if you get one good one, one bad one, and it makes it as as the person selling it, it does make it very, very difficult to to kind of handle customer requirements. And there's some countries that are doing tenderness tests, and and you know, they they know what they're selling, don't they? So it's yeah, it's a very good and valid point.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:30

The same meeting I was at last week, we had similar discussions, and one of the speakers said, Well, it is all very well that we should try and get a consistent beef product up to point. He says we need to make sure and not lose the taste, you know. You know, beef if beef is going to be a premium product, which it is, and it's gonna hold a value, you know, way in excess of what a chicken is, then we need to make sure it's got the taste there. And if you just consistently go down, you know, uh like you know, every chicken's the same. If you go down that beast route, you're gonna something's gonna be you're gonna lose something, and if you and if you lose taste, then that's gonna be a mistake for your premium product because we're then gonna undervalue the beef product.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:26

And it is difficult when we like think of your system, you've got wagyu, you've got some dairy beef, you've got some beef from the beef herd. I remember from the beef tech day, did you have 17 different breeds in the holding or something like that at the time? You know, there's there's a mass array, and it's trying to have that consistency when there's so many different factors at play as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:49

Well, that that's it, you're not gonna get the consistency, and unfortunately, we're not gonna get the the same consistency as a chicken or as pork as well, I suppose. But do we really want it if we're gonna trade off for something else? Would be the the problem, would be right, would it?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:12

Maybe you have to watch it's certainly where for beef and for lamb, the flavour is the whole the meat you're eating for chicken, particularly, the flavour is what you put on top of the meat you're eating, and and we can easily go down that road. It wouldn't take many generations of chasing for the wrong thing, selecting for the wrong thing, and you could read the flavour out entirely, and then you're competing with chicken, and you're never going to compete in terms of efficiency.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:42

Yeah, absolutely. So that's the that would be the danger of always pushing for certain traits, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:52

But then that's maybe efficiency more than you know, in terms of how long the animal is actually alive for.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:00

Which is a whole different conversation, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:06

Yeah, yeah. It's good enough. Are you summing up Kristen?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:14

Uh you go for it since I introduced you some up.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:17

Not entirely sure how we're summing that up. We'll go very simple. Um okay, guys, the sun is shining and there's plenty to do. Um, hopefully, um, I'm just thinking to your your foot going back to your football analogy, Noel. I'm really hoping that you're uh correct up to but we didn't we didn't actually predict what the final result would be, so we can we can hope for the right result. Uh but it's been really good to catch up with you, really good to to meet you and and and have a good pleather with you. Uh so much more we could go at such an interesting system, and and uh I'm sure we could have another podcast just on the hotel and another podcast just on the sheep. Uh but unfortunately we're at our time, so we'll probably draw a line under it at that and thank you very much just now, and uh hopefully you've had a good spring and summer in front of you. So thanks a lot. Thanks very much.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:07

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:08

Thanks.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:09

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:10

That's all for this episode of the QMS Podcast. Thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:14

We hope you've enjoyed hearing another story from Scotland's Red Meat Supply Chain.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:18

Across this series, we're bringing you real insights from the people who make the industry what it is, sharing their challenges, their opportunities, and everything in between.

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SPEAKER_02 1:05:32

Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next time as we continue the journey through the supply chain.