Living Apart, Together

Dr. Julie Pham shares her decade-long experience with "living apart together" (LAT), a relationship arrangement where committed partners maintain separate homes. She reveals how this unconventional approach has deepened appreciation, improved communication, and allowed both partners to bring their best selves to the relationship.

• LAT relationships affect approximately 3% of married couples who choose to maintain separate residences
• Being in a good relationship and being good roommates are two different skills that don't always overlap
• Seeing each other once weekly while living 1.5 miles apart creates intentional, quality time together
• Saying "I'm grateful for you" instead of "I love you" addresses the core need to feel appreciated
• Setting clear boundaries helps prevent resentment in both personal and professional relationships
• Turning 40 brings clarity, confidence and the ability to be unapologetic about personal needs
• The "rubber band rule" teaches awareness of how far we can stretch before breaking
• Multiple truths can coexist, creating space for different perspectives and experiences
• Starting her company CuriosityBase at 41 demonstrates it's never too late to follow your calling
• Embracing aging rather than hiding from it creates freedom and authenticity

If you're curious about different relationship models or want to learn more about Curiosity Base and the seven forms of respect, follow Dr. Julie Pham's work and consider how boundaries might transform your own relationships.

If you want to connect with Julie on social media you can at 

www.instagram.com/curiousitybased

https://curiositybased.com/about-us/

If you would like to have Julie on your show you can connect with her on PODMATCH! www.podmatch.com 

I want to thank Julie for sharing her journey on love on Diva Tonight! It's been a great experience! 

Chapters

• 0:00 Introducing Living Apart Together
• 5:12 Defining LAT Relationships
• 10:33 Communication Beyond Proximity
• 17:22 Gratitude vs "I Love You"
• 23:13 Finding Clarity at 40
• 31:05 The Calling of Curiosity
• 35:57 Embracing Multiple Truths
• 40:42 The Rubber Band Rule

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

Hi, I'm Carlene and this is Diva Tonight. Today we're celebrating the power of being a woman at 40 and also all the complexities and nuances that come with different relationships. I have with me Dr Julie Pham, an expert in relationships. When it comes to the work environment, she has a company called. Remind me again, it's yeah, and so we're not really going to be talking too much about your career. I mean, we will, but I think it's very interesting that you are sharing your relationship and how you have something that isn't like. You're in a relationship that isn't conventional in the sense where you're not married, but you guys are living together, apart, I guess that's the term. Living apart, together, living apart together. Yes, this is new for me too, and I think it's very interesting that you're in this kind of relationship and this is your first time talking about it in a public setting. So thank you, carleen. I just feel that your audience.

Speaker 2: 1:10

I just want to spread that this is an option, because so many people think that you're supposed to live together and then get married. And you don't have to do either.

Speaker 1: 1:19

Especially, you don't actually have to live together because I do think that being in a good relationship and being good roommates are two different things yeah, because I mean you could be in a relationship too and it's it's like you're not living together, they're living together, but you're you've grown apart. So it's kind of like you're living with your roommate, like everything goes down down together for granted.

Speaker 2: 1:41

You actually don't talk that much and you're just kind of at the end of the day you're like, well, we're together and you're just watching TV or whatever, and you barely see each other, even though you're technically living together.

Speaker 1: 1:52

Yeah, yeah. So can you tell me about this lifestyle, like your choice to do so, living apart, together? For those who don't get what that is, I mean, it's self-explanatory, but you know.

Speaker 2: 2:05

It's probably not. I have to tell you, I actually had to look up the I know that there was a term, a back term, because I was doing this before 80s really became something that people started writing about, and I actually just looked up the stuff that I guess about 3% of married couples actually do this now, and so what it means is that you are together in a healthy relationship and yet you decide to live in separate places. So I'm not talking about in separate bedrooms, I'm talking about in separate homes, and so because I know that there are the couples that they may just have their separate bedrooms, and so my partner and I have been together for almost 11 years and in the beginning, when we started dating, we did think, oh, we will eventually live together. And he's got, he's a single dad and he has full custody of his kids, and when he got his kids they were they were nine and 13.

Speaker 2: 2:57

And so I was just like, oh, this is, I'm not going to live with you. And because I didn't want to be, I didn't want to be the default babysitter, and we also have really separate expectations, so I'll get to about that. But so that played one factor in it. But after a while we're like this is actually really good. And even when because now his kids are his kids are both adults and and one's about to leave, which is we'll probably not live together unless we can't afford to or we can't afford to live separate households we actually see this as something that is really good in our relationship. So living apart together is just you you are in a relationship and yet you choose to live separately.

Speaker 1: 3:40

Yeah, and so how is the setup? I think that's the one thing that some people would question, like, how do you handle day to day logistics, like when do you guys see each other?

Speaker 2: 3:50

Do you see each other every other weekend, or do you plan your visits like that always on Saturday, and so even for married couples who live together or people with kids it's just they. Still it's a good practice to have a date night so that you can set aside a day where hey, this is, this is on our calendar. Otherwise people, even when you live together, you might think, oh well, we don't have to do that and it's like, actually I think it is important to to prioritize it and to make it a special day. So for us, we see each other once a week in person and then we talk every night. And actually we have always lived within 10 miles of each other, so we are living separately, but it's not actually not that far, and actually where he is right now he's living a mile and a half away from me. I can walk there, okay so it's not too far.

Speaker 2: 4:42

Okay, it's not too far, but you know, there are also, I know, couples who they live in different States, and so I have a friend where she's in Seattle and her husband's in Nashville, and so she'll go out every couple of weeks, and so it depends on how far away that you are from each other. That depends on how often that you see each other. I think an important part of this is that you have other ways of communicating, and so the thing about living apart together means you understand that we don't have to be in person to communicate, and, carly, don't you think? The pandemic taught us that too?

Speaker 1: 5:15

Yes, it did it did. You know what I mean? It taught us a lot, Actually it's funny that you talk about that. During the pandemic, the guy I was seeing at the time I haven't even talked about this in open form, but he was literally a one-minute walk Like he was my neighbor next door, Didn't live any closer than that and he was way younger than me oh, my goodness, 15 years younger and it was. Yeah, the pandemic taught me a lot, for sure yeah, a long distance relationship?

Speaker 2: 5:52

it's not like that, but it's in permanent state yeah, it's.

Speaker 1: 5:55

I think it's harder when it's long distance, I mean, especially when you don't get to see them as often as you want, and I think it might it would. It would be easier if you, if I met the person in the beginning and then maybe it was long distance or something, but I think even in the beginning, I just think it's challenging to do long distance, I mean in your, in your situation. Do you think, because you live apart, that you could do long distance because you've gotten used to that?

Speaker 2: 6:23

I mean yes, and I've actually, in my, in my twenties, my first serious relationship. We started long distance together for two and a half years and we were in different countries. And so I actually think that the the thing about long distance is it forces people to communicate in different ways, and that was in the, that was in the two thousands where we didn't have, I mean, video conferencing, was not there yet, and I mean I was living in Vietnam and we'd have these calling cards where it'd be 30 cents a minute, 35 cents a minute. That was a very expensive call. So actually we did a lot of emailing and when I lived in Vietnam, home internet was really difficult at the time, so I'd have to go to these internet cafes and we'd write letters.

Speaker 2: 7:04

And so my point being, I actually think in any relationship going long distance, even if just for a month or two months, it forces people to communicate in a different way and not just to rely on the ease of being together and just unspoken proximity, and it's just actually we have to articulate how we feel and what's happening in our lives in a way that helps people feel that we are still together even though we're apart, which I think is what we did during the pandemic Right Fast forward. We were all learning how to do that, and so so there's long distance, which is temporary usually, or for some people, that's a permanent state with the. Living apart together, that is hey, we've made a conscious decision to do that. Being apart together, that is hey, we've made a conscious decision to do that. And it's also the like I said earlier, being a good roommate and being a good partner are two different things and in a way, when we are together, it's like hey, let's actually, let's bring our best selves, not our leftover selves.

Speaker 2: 8:00

Because sometimes what happens is when we are together, all live together ourselves. Because sometimes what happens is when we are together, all live together, and it's just like you get home and you're tired and you bring and you were, you had to be cheery at work with your friends and you bring your, you give your leftovers to the people at home. Yeah, it's hard, it's hard Right and like and so with me and my partner, it's like okay, no, we are. We want to bring our best selves when we're together, and that just means our more, say, optimistic selves, our more open selves. It's not pretending to be different, it's just more of like. You know what I really want to be present with you right now. The time that we have together is precious, and it's thinking more about that as the quality of the time versus the quantity of the time.

Speaker 2: 8:39

Yeah so where did you guys meet? We actually met through volunteering and so, carlene, I did not do this online dating stuff either, so I've never actually Right, and actually neither of us have ever done online dating. And I gave him a Valentine card one year that said you saved me from online dating, and I actually asked him out. That was a joke we have where I was the one who asked him out. I like to tease him if I didn't ask you out. And so I will say, like I said earlier, we didn't expect this.

Speaker 2: 9:15

In the beginning, I think we had this both, this conventional idea of yes, eventually we'll live together, and a lot of my friends thought we weren't serious. Are you guys serious? Because we don't have any intention of living together. And friends were just are you guys serious? Like, are you in a committed relationship if that's not the destination you are moving toward? And then I think it was maybe six it had to be five, six years in where our friends were like, oh yeah, you are serious.

Speaker 2: 9:43

And now we've been together for over a decade and people realize, oh, this is just another way to be together. And so you know, for your listeners, sometimes people have, they're having real issues in their relationship. And I say try just living separately, because you'll have a different relationship with each other when you're not having to clean up after each other, having those, all those resentments that you get. That is from a life together. And and if you still can't make that work, then okay, but at least try that, because maybe you're conflating living together with being a good partner and being in a healthy relationship.

Speaker 2: 10:22

And I will also say you do have to make the decision. People have to make the decision of having separate households, and so this could be a pro or con, because some people like to combine all their, their resources so they can have more. Yeah, like because I want this and I want this, I want this, yeah. And so for us I mean we both what also really helps is we both live very simply, we both have small places, we both don't like to have a lot of stuff, and so we don't need to have all that space, you guys, in terms of living apart, so you pay your own bills and he pays his yeah.

Speaker 1: 10:56

Do you guys do anything together in terms of like finances, like when you go away together?

Speaker 2: 11:01

Yeah, so when we go away, we usually have this okay, you pay for this part and I have to pay for this part. So we don't do this whole splitting down the middle or the yeah, it's, we don't use those apps or something like that. It's more of yeah, hey, I'll pay for the lodging and then you pay for this part and and. And even when we have, when we go over to friends or we do a date night, we'll take turns paying, or if it's, if it's my friends, we're going into my friends or we're doing something with my friends, then I pay. And if it's his friends, and he pays. So even if it's a potluck, if it's my friend, I will pay. If, even if it's more my friend than your friend, I will, I will cover that. So, yeah, but we don't, we don't do the whole calculation thing, but that's also just. I know some couples are fine with that and we're just the ease, it's it all. It all washes out.

Speaker 1: 11:56

When you tell people, though, like I mean, you mentioned briefly that your friends didn't take the relationship seriously, but when you, when you talk about it, I don't know who you talk about it with. When you, when you talk about it, I don't know who you talk about it with Do you, do you face judgment? Like, do people judge judgments or assumptions from other people? Don't live this way, because it's not it's still not conventional and it's like kind of like.

Speaker 2: 12:20

I think there's surprise and then there's curiosity oh, how does that? How does that work? And do you, do you intend to live together? And then, depending on for friends who have been in relationships who are divorced, it's like, huh, maybe I would like that, and I think, especially for women, if you can afford to have your own household. And when I tell my friends this, they're like wait a minute, yeah, I do like my space, I do like my things. Why would I go and live with someone? Because for many women, even when you have a partner, if you have a male partner who's really progressive and likes to share things, somehow a lot of the household duties and the emotional labor of the household somehow still falls to women. It's just kind of a default right, and so I think, and then those subtle little resentments do build up. I mean, I think for many women or I'll just speak for myself.

Speaker 2: 13:19

That's the way I was conditioned. I have two younger brothers. I've lived with them as an adult and somehow I found myself picking up after them, even though they are adults too. So this is a way to actually to to have your relationship focus on what you enjoy doing together and not not being a roommate. Another thing that I'll say that's a bit different from our relationship is, early on, I said I don't want to say I love you, and instead, because for me that what I really wanted in a relationship, what I felt was missing from earlier relationships, was I felt I was taken for granted, and so what's so important for me in a relationship is gratitude, and so actually, instead of saying I love you, what we say to each other is we say I'm grateful, I'm grateful for you, and that's our way of saying I love you. Wow, so you have it and it's and it's constantly quote reminder I mean we, you know, I don't, I'm I really I'm kind of confused, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:20

So you know how people say I love you, I love you, I love you, right. And so for me, love is like oh well, that's a big, that's big word. And yet, at the core of what, like, the most important thing in a, in a relationship, for me, is that I feel that that person appreciates me and they don't take me for granted, right, and they can love me and they can give me roses and they can tell me how beautiful I am. But what I actually want to know is that they appreciate me, and so I told my partner really early on I don't ever want to be taken for granted, and so instead of saying I love you, which feels more kind of generic, we have chosen to say our way of saying I love you is saying I'm grateful for you.

Speaker 1: 15:00

So you have not said I love you.

Speaker 2: 15:02

Oh, no, we have said that, but it's just not our, but our way of saying is that what you're saying? No, it's more of like a substitute. Instead of saying I love you, we say I'm grateful, Okay, yeah.

Speaker 1: 15:16

And you feel that that makes the relationship more complete in that way, or you feel like that.

Speaker 2: 15:22

It reminds us of what's really important. What do we prioritize? And what we prioritize is saying I appreciate you, I don't take you for granted.

Speaker 1: 15:30

I see the effort you put into this relationship and what has made you decide that this is the way you want your relationships? Is it from previous relationships where you felt that?

Speaker 2: 15:41

yeah, previous relationships definitely feeling taken for granted and and that's why when I got to this relationship, it was just I and we entered this relationship when I was in my mid-30s and it's like I want this relationship. I've learned from other relationships and what I want in this relationship is to feel appreciated, and I want also my partner feel to feel appreciated and to be a little more specific than just love, because love is really big and broad.

Speaker 1: 16:09

Yeah, no, it is. It is and I think I think, especially if you I don't know how your family was growing up, but I find the one thing about like immigrant or caribbean families like I'm from the caribbean, like my parents didn't my mom would say I love you a lot and so it was never done that, and so like you don't grow up with that, and so when you're in a relationship and the person says I love you or that feeling, it's different. It takes time to understand what that actually means. Like you know what I mean, when you love someone you're willing to do anything for them. And so when you don't have that base to work with, or like you don't have that own experience, I think it changes like your outlook on what you're expected, what you expect in a relationship to begin with. Right, so, totally different.

Speaker 1: 16:58

But you know the series. The show is focused also on 40 and like at 40. So now that you're you've been together, for you said 11 years, almost 11 years. And now that you've been together for you said 11 years, almost 11 years. And now that you are 40, what has surprised you most about this stage of life?

Speaker 2: 17:16

That it gets better, that I didn't expect to have so much clarity, I didn't expect to have so much more confidence at this age, and, at the same time, there's still times where I'm seized with insecurities as well, so I don't want to say no.

Speaker 2: 17:32

I do feel a lot more unapologetic about what matters to me and just saying no, I'm not going to go to that, you can do that, it's okay, I don't need to go, or I don't need to do that thing, or I don't want to do that thing. This is what I value instead, and I really I think that experience has taught me that, because experience has taught me I don't want to be resentful, and the way I avoid being resentful is by being clear in what I want and what I don't want, and also, though, that I can still learn and discover new things about myself too. So that is that I can discover that I can continue, that I can continue to learn. I mean, for a while, I took adult break dancing classes. I will never be good at dancing, and yet there's still something so much fun about it, and so just there's a freedom in. Not everything has to be something that I eventually excel in, because there's many things I have not excelled in, and there's something fun about just learning.

Speaker 1: 18:31

Okay, that's good. I think for sure at this, at this stage, I feel that too, like we're, like you said, not being apologetic anymore, like being okay with the mistakes that you make and being okay with who you are and being comfortable with you know, before I would be like, if I'm listening to music while I'm walking and if I feel like you know dancing to the music, I'd be like, oh, other people are gonna think I'm crazy or strange, but now the stage, I'm like I don't really care. So, um, I think it's. It's more or less. You're not as self-conscious about everything, but just accepting yourself, of course, but yeah, so how would you describe the difference between how you approach your relationships in your twenties and now? Oh, gosh.

Speaker 2: 19:13

So wait, are you talking about all relationships or romantic relationships?

Speaker 1: 19:17

Um, I guess romantic relationships yeah, and you can elaborate too with friendships. I think it encompasses all things, I guess, yeah.

Speaker 2: 19:26

Yeah, I mean, I think that it's setting boundaries and saying and not feeling that I should do something. So even the word should, I really try not to use the word should. So, going back to early on, when my partner got his kids, just establishing it, I'm a stepmom, I'm not going to be a babysitter, I am their dad's partner, and now we have as the kids are now adults we have a really good relationship, but it wasn't always we had to earn that, and so I think that being clear about what I need is something in all relationships that I've learned to apply, and I also I don't get FOMO. There's that fear of missing out. I think they call it joy of missing out. Right, if you want to go, do that, that's cool.

Speaker 2: 20:19

There's actually something liberating about saying no, that's okay and I'm not. And let me offer something else and not worrying about is that going to hurt the person? Is that going to hurt their relationship? Because now I think more about if we are truly friends, then you don't want me to do something that I don't want to do either. And then, Carlene, another thing is just really thinking about the friendships and the people who I want in my life and understanding that it takes work. I think some people think, oh, friends should just come to me, and I'm recognizing at this stage we're all really busy and so sometimes I do have to put in a little more effort, especially with my friends who have kids, who have other other really time consuming responsibilities and I'm OK with that too really time-consuming responsibilities, and I'm okay with that too. So, yes, I'd say that setting boundaries, but also understanding that different people have different needs and sometimes we do have to give more if we want to have that person in our life and to accept that they've got things going on too.

Speaker 3: 21:23

Diva Tonight glamour for your ears. This is 40, a female perspective perspective no, you're right.

Speaker 1: 21:31

Um, sure, I think especially time is so important and, like you, have to make time for everyone. Like you know, and sometimes I guess, what we can, what I can say based on your experiences that, since you live apart with your partner, that it allows you to devote time to other things too, like other people, and you know your friends, family, colleagues, whatever and your business right, because I mean there's more to you than your relationship. You have a career as well, and your background isn't. You have a phd and as well, right, so it says a lot about you as a person and like your achievements in life. But what are you most proud of at this stage in your life?

Speaker 2: 22:14

I don't know if it's the. I'll say something that I'm very proud of. I don't know if it's the most the thing that I'm most proud of. I'm really proud of starting my own company. I did that. I think I was probably 41 or 42 when I did that and I just curiosity-based. I love my and actually I'm proud that I was an employer from the get-go. So a lot of people they'll start their company and they're a solopreneur and from the get-go. It's just.

Speaker 2: 22:39

I don't want to build this company alone. I actually left the best job I ever had. I was working in a nonprofit and I had some interns there and they were going to lose their internships if once I left to start my own company. So I actually took them with me and I used my savings and I paid for their their first salary out of my savings because I was like I want to build this company with other people and so I'm proud of my small and scrappy team and what we're doing to help spread curiosity in the world and just bit by bit, just the the impact that we're having yeah, no, that's amazing and I think, well, I mean in terms of your company and what you do.

Speaker 1: 23:16

I think a lot of it, from what I've read briefly, is that curiosity basically help others, like set boundaries.

Speaker 2: 23:23

And there's seven, there's seven, yeah, the seven forms of yeah, there's the seven steps, but also just getting curious. And how do we get curious about ourselves? Practice inward curiosity. How do we get curious with other people? Workplaces have the opportunity to be learning organizations, because learning doesn't stop at school, and so that's what we really try to do Work with employers to create these cultures of continual learning where people feel safe to ask questions. They feel safe to say I don't know. And how do we learn from one another, versus just getting training?

Speaker 1: 23:56

Right, I think that's a different concept. So what gave you the idea to start your own company?

Speaker 2: 24:03

Yeah, yeah, and so I'll tell you. Some people say they follow your passion. Yeah, and so I'll tell you. Some people say they follow your passion. I actually think I was answering a calling. I felt called to do this work. I at the time I was working as an executive at a nonprofit and probably it was the best job I ever had and the only reason I would leave the best job I ever had. Wow, I love writing. I think at my core, I'm a writer and I have these ideas that I want to share and I wanted to share it under my name, and I could not do that as an employee. So I actually had to start to take the risk and to start my own company. And I did that in the middle of the pandemic because I felt, wow, I think that the work, what I'm writing, can actually help people beyond the audience at the nonprofit that I was working at and I just want to. I want to try. I felt called to to do that work.

Speaker 1: 24:54

No, I think it's great what you're doing, because there's so many things that we are supposed to do in life and if you find your calling, not a lot of people say that it's their calling. Like, I think, the other person I spoke to I remember when I was visiting a family member in the hospital and the nurse said to me this is a calling. You know, I've decided that this is my life's work because it's a calling Like she's. Like I spend 12 hours a day here working as a nurse and I lose a lot of time with my child and my family, and so this is not just for anybody. You know what I mean. So when you're doing something like that, that means that you've devoted your life to it. So obviously it meant something for you to start the company CuriosityBase, which is cool. It's so cool that you do that. So where did you go to school?

Speaker 2: 25:47

For my undergrad I went to Berkeley and for my grad school I went to Cambridge in the UK.

Speaker 1: 25:53

In the UK. Okay, so that was when you were asking about that. Okay, yeah, yeah. And so do you feel like your education has led you to where you are now, because, I mean, obviously you were working for a company that you enjoyed working for, right.

Speaker 2: 26:08

Yeah, I'm trained as a historian and I don't do historical research. Now, I mean, actually, my PhD is in intellectual modern Southeast Asian history, and that is not what I do. My dissertation was a biography of a South Vietnamese communist revolutionary, and that is not what I do. My dissertation was a biography of a South Vietnamese communist revolutionary, and that is not what I do, carleen. The work, though, of a historian is it's about perspective taking and about uncovering the stories, and that is so central to the work that I do now, because, for us to practice curiosity, we have to. We have to be open to different possibilities, and so you have, you may, and I truly believe that multiple truths can coexist, and so, instead of trying to fight over what is true, let's actually understand why your truth is the way it is, and I'll just give you an example.

Speaker 2: 26:57

I'm a Vietnamese refugee. That's a really important part of my identity. I'm a South Vietnamese refugee. My parents and I left communist Vietnam, and so we just had April 30th and the 50th anniversary of the end of what's called the Vietnam War, and so in the US, they call that the fall of Saigon. In communist Vietnam, they call that April 30th, liberation Day, when the North liberated the South, and for the South Vietnamese community that I belong to, we call that the day we lost our country and all three are true Fall of Saigon, liberation Day, the day we lost our country. For me, I'm really interested in why is that? What's your story let's talk about? What does it mean for it to be Liberation Day, what does it mean for it to be the day we lost our country? And so that's central to my work now to help people embrace that, to be open to different possibilities.

Speaker 1: 27:48

Yeah, there's different possibilities in every. I think, in a way, when you talk about that, the fact that you studied history, history, is important for everything the history of the company, the history, how we got here because I always say, it's not where you're going, it's where you came from. And if, if, because of your history, if it helped you form the person that you are today, help me form your identity, and so it's kind of like you're a teacher in a in a way, but in a different platform. And I think even for me, like you said, we, we it's it's our passion or our calling Right, and so for me, like you said, we, it's it's our passion or our calling right, and so for me, I think it was my, I realized what my passion was really late and having that clarity.

Speaker 1: 28:30

That's what you said earlier about being clear about who you are, and I think that's the important thing. So you, you're not practicing what you studied in school, but in some shape or form it has helped you with what you do now, like your career, your business and your identity Right, and so I think it's changed your identity. Obviously, it's still a part of who you are. Do you feel like all three things like are true. Like you lost, they lost your country.

Speaker 2: 29:01

Say that Right, I right I mean, well, that's that's when people are, I mean, as political refugees, that's, we're fleeing, yeah, communism, and so that's.

Speaker 2: 29:11

Then it feels like the country we lost and and and and all and all of them are.

Speaker 2: 29:16

All of those different names are true, and so for me it's more about the process of learning than it is actually about the final label, and that informs how we work now, because even we all have even our own little stories, our experiences that lead us to who we are today, and so there's one of the stories that make up a nation and one of the stories that just make up me and who I am. And so how do we go back in time? I can't remember the name of the book, but there's this one book about storytelling, and it says that people who are able to know their personal history, kids who are able to know their personal history, are actually much more resilient in life. And then the author then went on and did a study for organizations and they found out that employees who know the story of their, of the ups and downs of their company, their employer, actually are much more engaged in the work. And so I think knowing our personal history is makes us healthier and makes us more engaged.

Speaker 1: 30:15

For sure. Yeah, I think knowing is half the battle, right, and understanding too. And so, in terms of like organizations that you work with, right, how do you help them in terms of like? Is it boundary setting to begin with, because you said it's curiosity based, but do you help, I guess, if you elaborate? How do you help?

Speaker 2: 30:36

Yeah, yeah, and so yes, and actually I'm wondering if I. So one of the things that we do workshops on is called the seven forms of respect, and so I'll just say there that a lot of people it's about how respect is relative, it's objective, dynamic and also contradictory. And it's contradictory because we as humans are contradictory, and so it's actually helping employers move away from right or wrong respect versus disrespect to huh, how do we, instead of saying how do we be more respectful, how do we get, how do we talk about what does respect mean here in our organization? And then the other part of that is in terms of the boundary setting. When people talk about respect, they often talk about the golden rule Treat people the way you want to be treated. Now, the thing about the golden rule is what if they don't want to be treated the way you want to be treated treated? Now, the thing about the golden rule is what if they don't want to be treated the way you want to be treated? What if they don't want to be treated the way you want to be treated? So I have what I call the rubber band rule and I teach people this.

Speaker 2: 31:28

The rubber band rule is and I normally have a rubber band, but the rubber band rule is we are able to stretch. So, carleen, maybe you'd like to be treated a for people, and sometimes, though, we're stretching a lot, and it's really uncomfortable, and what can happen is, if I wanna show respect, but I don't feel true to myself and I'm stretching and stretching, and stretching, I can snap and break, and so, with the rubber band rule is about knowing what are my internal breaking points, what's gonna make me snap, and that's actually about self-awareness and it's about self-respect, and so I teach that a lot, too, to give people this mental model oh, am I stretching? Oh, and, because everyone's rubber band is different, and also your rubber band could be different at work and home, I'm a lot more stretchy at home than I'm at work. Like, I'm much better at boundary setting at work than I am at home, and that could be different for different people, I mean.

Speaker 2: 32:22

So, carleen, I invite you to think about that. Are you more stretchy at work or at home? And I invite your listeners to think about that too. And am I actually? Am I snapping, am I breaking? And is that because I haven't told people that I don't want to do this?

Speaker 1: 32:41

I feel like you're right. I think a lot of us are more stretchier. I guess I don't want to do this. I feel like you're right. I think a lot of us are more stretchier. I guess I don't even know the term. It's more accommodating at work to do more, and then you find like you're taking on more than you can, like you're biting off more than you can chew.

Speaker 1: 32:55

I've done that in many sets of the work because I'm a hard worker, but I'm also, like you know, I can get fixated and, like you know, do many things, and I think in my last role that I was working at, I realized, wow, you write everything that you actually are doing. I'm like I didn't realize I was doing this much work, you know, and no wonder I'm feeling burnt out, right? And so that's where boundary setting starts, at the beginning, and I think what I have to say and I think maybe you teach this to people too is, like when you're starting a new job, like how you have to pace yourself and not do too much because you're trying to prove something. I think that's what I've always tried to do is always, uh, prove that I'm a hard worker, like to compensate for the things that I'm not good at like in terms of time management and that kind of thing. So that's like we're always learning and always working on ourselves, but that's important too.

Speaker 2: 33:51

Yeah, although I'll say like I find myself stretching so much more from my family than I would from my coworkers, and that's I also take for granted I also that's because I'm also the CEO, so I don't have to stretch as much right. But for my younger brothers and for my mom, do this right. And it's because we're together. I mean we are a family. I can't fire anyone. They can't fire me, we're in it.

Speaker 1: 34:20

So you can't take time away from them and set boundaries Because, like you said, I think you, um, you, you are right, I think you do stretch more for your family and I I remember I just had a situation where I realized I want to do so much and sometimes I can't and I have to say no. And it is the hardest thing when you are such a giving person, when you want to do everything to help your family, and sometimes you really can't. You know, and and that's a and you, you brought that up in terms of, like what we think about, and I hope that people, like whoever's listening, will think about, like how have you stretched yourself to the point where you can't do it more? I guess that's the one thing when, when we're older, right, and at this age, uh, in our 40s, where it's like now I realize I'm going to set boundaries for myself. So do you practice the seven, the boundary rules with your family, if that's the case, do you realize?

Speaker 2: 35:14

Yes, but I mean, this is something that is imperfect too and I'm always working on it. You know, there are times where I'm like I didn't know I was gonna snap until I snapped, because I sometimes I'm so proud of being so stretchy, and it's just like, oh no, now it stops. And I've you know, I've had to, I've had to do that recently where it's just like no, we can't continue anymore. This is, and I do believe that some things have to just break so that we can create instead of repair. Sometimes you need to have it snap and walk away and it's just like we're gonna have to just break so that we can create instead of repair. Sometimes you need to have it snap in and walk away and it's just like we're going to have to, we're going to have to figure out something new now, because there was no way to make things work in the old, in that old structure. So I mean, I'll just give you I.

Speaker 2: 35:55

I, during the pandemic, I ended up moving back to my family home with my two younger brothers. My father was in hospice at home, but we decided to be with him and then, after he passed, we all decided to stay and we recently realized we have to move out because we are getting stuck in certain patterns. We all we broke the pattern and now we are in this messy transition period and we know it's going to be messy for quite a while, and yet what we had before was unsustainable. So I think that sometimes people are really afraid of that messy part, that messy transition part. We just it takes a while to figure that out, and yet you can only have change if you're willing to have that messy part too.

Speaker 1: 36:35

Yeah, I think the pandemic like, well, we're still talking about it now it's been five years, but I feel like it's all encompassing where the pandemic has taught us a lot and it's also it created a lot of new things too. Right, I think you said you started your company. I started working more on the podcast during the pandemic because, like when when you say before, like you, I had more time, so time was an issue before and so I had more time, so it was like no excuses. Now you have the time to work on things and I think, like you said, with your family, you realize certain things have to break or realize that this is the end, you have to walk away. So going forward. So are there what's next for you in terms of, like, your personal life, your romantic life? You?

Speaker 2: 37:21

know, I will say, a big epiphany I had last year is that we are as humans, we are all going through multiple journeys simultaneously and each of those journeys have their own stages. And so and I realized that with my business I realized that as a first-time CEO, as a middle-aged woman, and it's nice to actually have some stages where, like, we're just good, it's like smooth, right, there's like no drama in my relationship. That's the stage we're in, which is great, right. And then in my business life, it's like, oh, we are still working through how to get to this success, and 50% of businesses don't make it past year five. So the fact that we're still here, that's great, you know.

Speaker 2: 38:04

And just recognizing that's the stage we're in. We can't. Everyone's got to go through puberty, right. We all got to go through menopause, right. Those are the certain stages. So what's next for myself? Well, I shared with you my personal life. Is just that day, that would be great. No drama, yay, that would be great. No drama, yay. And then, and for my business is just continuing to to, I think, in this economy and with in world affairs is, I wouldn't say grow it, but just strengthen it and deepen it, yeah yeah, I have an interesting question.

Speaker 1: 38:37

So what's one thing you wish women knew before turning, or? Even yourself. What do you wish?

Speaker 2: 38:42

you knew before you turn that we shouldn't be afraid of getting older. The way that people talk about aging. It's so interesting how people oh, I don't want to talk about my age, or, or I'm not going to tell you about this because then I'm going to date myself. We talk about it as if it's something to be ashamed of and and we can, and so it's just, something is actually. It's like it's great, it's great, and the more you embrace it, the more I embrace it. Oh, it's an attitude. Am I going to embrace it or am I going to push against it and try to hide it and try to look like I mean, I'm not one of those people. I update my headshot right, like I'm not using a headshot from when I was 25. Use your headshot, embrace you. So I wish that was something that I saw modeled more. Wow. I still think the way we talk about aging is it's as if it's something that it's something to be ashamed of. It's like no, embrace, embrace our age, you know what it's so true.

Speaker 1: 39:43

I feel like I am embracing my age and I say, and I and when people ask me how old I am, I'm okay.

Speaker 1: 39:48

I think before I would be like you know, you're like, oh, I don't want to talk about my age, it's, it's a generational thing and I think our family passes it on and we have to like break the generational gap with that or the generate like whatever our generation passed down. But I love that that you said that, because it's so true and I hope that other women women who are, if you are listening to this that you embrace your age, because I feel like age means wisdom and that, like you figured out like how to get here and what, like what it means to be here, like you did, you put in the work, right, and you put in the work yourself. So it's amazing, right, and thanks for sharing your relationship in this in this way. I think it's so interesting in a way and I hope maybe it will inspire people who thought this is the end, that maybe they'll look into other living living together apart or living apart together living apart together.

Speaker 1: 40:47

Living apart together, right, lat, lat. Yeah, it's a new, it's some people have been doing it for years, but I feel like lat is is is a new concept. Not many people are doing it, but I think it might be something that would help. I mean, you're enjoying it. You know what I mean. So, yes, they both don't fix it right. Yeah, have your own place, have your like your own. Yeah, I guess there's there's a lot of things that you like about having your own space and like do you do you feel like when you don't live together, that you miss the person more? So when you see them, it kind of makes it better in that way? I just think that we appreciate each other more.

Speaker 2: 41:35

When we do see each other, I really do feel that we're just okay. We're not on our phone.

Speaker 1: 41:42

Oh right.

Speaker 2: 41:44

We are together. We are with the time that we have. We are just okay, we're not on our phone. Oh right, we are together. We are with the time that we have. We are together. We're present for each other.

Speaker 1: 41:50

That is a hard concept for many people. Now we're not talking, yeah, you're not doing any work, you're not answering emails. You're in the moment with your person. Well, that's amazing. Thank you so much, julie, for being on the show. It's been great talking to you. I'm Carlene, and this is Diva Tonight with Dr.

Speaker 2: 42:11

Julie. Thank you so much, carlene, I really enjoyed our conversation.

Speaker 3: 42:14

Diva Tonight with Carlene will be back. Send us a message on Instagram at diva underscore tonight.