Coffee, Conflict, And Keeping Calm

We trace a small coffee clash into a masterclass on anger: how pride fuels escalation, how to de‑escalate when stakes feel high, and how midlife hormones can set the stage for rage. Julie shares evidence‑based steps for calm choices, plus candid stories about medical hurdles, HRT, and building autonomy at work and in life.

• Anger triggers and the cost of being right
• Practical de‑escalation in retail and public spaces
• Fight, flight, fawn, freeze and the amygdala
• Breathing, goals, and outcome‑focused choices
• Perimenopause, menopause, and mood shifts
• How to ask doctors for tests and HRT
• Invisible labor and midlife emotional load
• Boundaries, timeouts, and flexible work
• Career pivot to autonomy and client fit
• Data over feelings when advocating for care

Check out the app, it's Anger Solutions
Send us a message on Instagram at Diva underscore tonight

Chapters

• 0:03 Meet Julie Christensen
• 0:37 The Coffee Mix‑Up And Staying Calm
• 4:29 Where’s The Beef And Respect
• 10:30 De‑Escalation On The Retail Floor
• 12:51 Fight, Flight, Fawn, Or Freeze
• 16:40 Breathing, Goals, And Better Choices
• 17:12 Women’s 40s, Mood, And Hormones
• 22:48 Medical Hurdles And Hysterectomy
• 27:19 Learning HRT And Advocating Symptoms
• 31:12 Invisible Labor And Midlife Rage
• 33:05 Asking For Timeouts At Work
• 36:51 Autonomy, Telehealth, And Self‑Care
• 39:33 Sick Leave, Fairness, And Frustration
• 41:57 Pivoting Careers And Gaining Leverage

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:03

Hi, I'm Carlene, and this is Diva. Tonight, I'm thrilled to have with me Julie Christensen, a renowned psychotherapist, author, and speaker with nearly three decades of experience in communication and personal development. And she is the author of Rise of Rage, and she's an expert when it comes to anger management. And so hi, Julie. Hello.

SPEAKER_03: 0:31

How are you? I'm great. Thanks for having me on the show.

SPEAKER_01: 0:35

Oh, thanks for being here. I wanted to bring up something that happened to me yesterday. And hopefully you can relate to this one because that's your focus. So yesterday I went to McDonald's. I wanted a coffee. And so I'm like, okay, I need like a little pick-me up because the weather is like so gloomy. So I got myself a medium double double. Then they gave me my receipt, right? Which is the number they call out. They call out my number. And this guy goes up and he takes my coffee. And I'm away. Yes. So I'm like, that's my order. And he's like, no, no, no, no, no. He's like, I ordered a coffee. And I'm like, my number's 269. And then I go tell the ladies, and then they're like, oh, you guys have the same order. I'm like, no, we didn't. He he took my medium double double, and his coffee was a dark black. And so he was adamant that that was that he could take my order. And so they had to remake my coffee. Now I could have snapped, which is probably what I wanted to do. Because I'm like, I like, I mean, it's not their fault. It's his fault for being ignorant, right? And so I let him walk off. And then I'm like, can you guys just make my coffee again, please? You know what I mean? And I just handled it like in a civil way. I could have been made a scene about it, which is what, depending on the mood I'm in, right? We're all likely to do that. But I'm like, you know what? It's not their fault. I just wanted my coffee. So yeah, they made me and they made my coffee with my order, but it just makes me think about your situation that you had when you went to McDonald's.

SPEAKER_03: 2:14

Yeah, this was this was many years ago. I wanted a quarter pounder with cheese. And so I I went through the drive-thru and I ordered my quarter pounder of cheese, and they handed me my bag, and the bag felt real light, you know. I was like, this feels weird. So I I pulled into a parking spot. I opened up my my sandwich, and there was no meat in there. There was everything else but the burger. And so I was like, oh, okay. I went back around and I I parked my car, went into the restaurant, and I walked up to the counter. And I honestly I thought it was funny. I really did, because I I think as I told you the first time I shared this story with you, I didn't need to eat the hamburger. I'm gluten intolerant and I'm lactose intolerant. I should not be eating bread and cheese, but here I am ordering this quarter pounder. They give me everything except for the part that I'm allowed to eat. You know, like the whole thing was just kind of comical. So when I went in, I walked up to the counter and I said, I pulled out the the container and I said, I don't know if you're gonna get this reference or not, but where's the beef? And she looked and she just she went into panic mode. She was like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe it, you know, and she ran off and and they were so apologetic, and and they were like, What can we do for you? And I was like, just give me a new hamburger. And they're like, Do you want a new i do you want an ice cream? Do you want something else? I was like, No, this is already more calories than I should be eating today's, but just you know, give me the thing because I'm hungry. Uh so they made it for me, and and the girl at the counter expressed gratitude to me. She was like, I'm so thankful that you handled it this way, because a lot of people would lose their minds over a mistake like that. And I was like, it's just a piece, like it's just a hamburger. It's not, you know, like the world isn't ending because I didn't get meat in my bun. It's fine. But that that shows to me how easily people can escalate. And I think what's interesting about your story is that even though you had the proof, right? You had the proof, you had the receipt, show him that this is not what you ordered, this person decided he was he was happier being right, right? It was better for him to be right than for him to be happy. Because if he ordered a dark black, he guarantee once he got in the car and drank that double double and realized it was not his order, now he's gonna have to be miserable because he's not coming back into the restaurant to say you were right and I was wrong, because his pride is more important. Right, right. So this person not only sacrificed his his enjoyment of his morning coffee, he he made life more difficult for you, and he didn't end up getting what he wanted. So it's like just take a minute, just take a minute, take a step back and go, okay, well, let's let's take a look here. Oh, you know what? You're absolutely right. This isn't my coffee. I apologize. Here you go. Let me take mine, have a great day, and off we go. Like it doesn't even that doesn't even require anger management or anger resolution skills. That just requires a modicum of respect for other people, you know. If if you respect other people, then you would at least hear them out and see whether or not you did make a mistake. When you're not willing to do that, that's when things go a little off the rails.

SPEAKER_01: 5:26

Yeah. I think for me, it was more or less how I handled it because I'm just like, I was getting a little annoyed because I'm trying to explain to him that that's not his order, and I'm showing him my order ticket. I didn't show him my receipt, but like he was in a rush, and it was like, he's just like so he's like, this is he's like, I ordered a coffee, that's my coffee, and then he just walked away. And I was just like, so then the staff have to help me now because it's like, well, which is really yeah, how it should be, right?

SPEAKER_03: 5:58

Because you did the right thing, you didn't cause a scene. I've been in Starbucks when a scene has been caused, it's not pretty, like it totally wrecks the vibes. You know, your laptop and you're chilling and you're having your night ten dollar mocha latte, whatever you're drinking, and then these two two fools start fighting over who should be in line and why don't you hurry up and order your coffee because you've already butt it. Like, boys, take it outside. You know, like we don't need this. So, like, you chose the right path by saying, you know what, it's just a coffee. And at the end of the day, this is the key thing I wanted to point point out is that you decided at the end of the day what was most important to you was getting your coffee. And so you knew you weren't going to get the coffee by trying to fight him for it. So let him go and then turn to the people who can actually help you solve the problem and ask them to make you your coffee for your order and then be on your way, right? Like you handled it correctly. What happens is people lose sight of what they actually want, what their end objective is. Oh, right, right. And so for him, his primary objective in that moment was to be right. And so all he cared about was taking what was his and carrying on with his day, not understanding that in doing so, he wasn't actually getting what he wanted. And now, like I said, he's too embarrassed to go back. So he has to fuck it up and drink the double double, you know? Whereas you were like, you know what, I'm just gonna stay calm and ask people if they can remake it for me, and I'm gonna walk away with what I wanted in the first place.

SPEAKER_01: 7:31

It's true, it's true. I think I've had like I think over the years I've learned what's worth getting angry over and what not. But I think I don't always process it too, especially when I'm at work. I think in in the work setting, I I'm not that person. And I've been told many times, like, Carlene, you are way too nice because I've had people yelling at me, like my work in retail. And so that's the name of the game where people get upset if they are, you know, asked, because we have to ask for ID where I work, and as soon as they're asked, and they they think like the per the person who asked for ID is in the wrong, then it becomes like, oh, you're a racist or you're this, and then it escalates. And I've seen it happen where I'm just sitting there watching the behavior and I'm like, we've been taught to how to de-escalate things, but in the moment, some of my colleagues they don't de-escalate, they actually make it even worse. And so then the shift lead has to come out. Um, I'm I won't say her name, but like I'll say person A, um, she was just getting so angry at the customer who was telling her off, and then she just got so angry. I've never seen her like that, but I think this job has gotten to her in some instances where she's not gonna be quiet anymore. And so the shift lead comes out and they're like, okay, person A, just go to the office, and then they have to deal with the customer who is so high strung, so angry, and like they leave angry, you know, and it's really like you said, it's it's sometimes it's not worth it. I and sometimes I wish I would react to what they're saying to me, but I can give you another an example. So when I worked at downtown Brampton, I had this grandfather come in with his kids, and they said, I said, I can't serve you, like you are underage and like you can't buy for them. And then he got so mad, he was like, You fucking bitch, and did it. I was like, I'm doing my job. You're buying alcohol for minors, and they don't even have ID. Like, you know what I mean? And that's when people get upset, or you know, and there's no way to de-escalate it at that point. Like, I mean, all I did was I was just quiet. And then I think either my manager came out to talk to that person, but then again, my coworker is like, Carle, I can't believe you didn't say anything. I'm like, what am I supposed to do? Yeah, what's the I mean, in my eyes, what's the me swearing at him back or like responding to his ignorance, it it really is not gonna do, it's not gonna change anything because he's very ignorant, right?

SPEAKER_03: 10:04

So yeah, and and you're you're right, because number one, you're doing a job, so you're representing your employer, and you need to represent your employer in a way that maintains professionalism. Number two, when the other person is in the wrong and they're the one making all the fuss, let them have at it. Really, because anything you say, when someone's already escalating, anything you say is going to escalate them further. Because anger has this unique quality that when your amygdala gets engaged, it shuts off all your higher order reasoning. And so you're not hearing as well. Oh, you're certainly not making sense of what people are saying to you. Yeah. Because your amygdala is running the show and the amygdala wants satisfaction. That's all it wants. It doesn't, it doesn't want common sense, right? So you trying to say, sir, please calm down. What do you mean? I'm already come, right? Like nothing you say is going to bring them down. All you can do is step back within reason, right? If they're a danger to themselves or to anybody else, then you gotta you've gotta do what's necessary, you know, whatever your your guidelines are. But otherwise, let it out. Go for it. It's like when a two-year-old is having a tantrum. Okay, get it out of your system. When you're done, we'll talk. But for right now, I'm just gonna sit here and I'm gonna stare at you like you're an alien. Yeah. Because you're not acting human right now. So go ahead, do what you gotta do. When you're done, we will reiterate the policy and give you a choice as to whether or not you would like to leave or whether you would like someone to help you leave.

SPEAKER_01: 11:47

Yeah. Those are your options. Yeah, yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_03: 11:51

Like that's it. Uh otherwise, what happens then is anger escalates. When he calms down, if he if I mean he's a grandfather, when he calms down, he should be able to reason that what he was doing was actually illegal and you weren't targeting him in any way by telling him, no, you were doing your job. And maybe common sense would say, next time you go to buy booze for your minor grandchildren, maybe you don't bring them with you, you idiot. Go buy your go buy your booze, and then if you want to share it with them, share it with them, but don't go dragging them into the into the store.

SPEAKER_02: 12:30

Yeah, I know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 12:32

Because you pretty much know you're gonna get turned down at that point, right? So he will figure that out eventually, but he won't be able to figure it out in the moment because his brain isn't capable of doing that kind of higher order reasoning because it's engulfed in that fight or flight state of mind.

SPEAKER_01: 12:50

Yeah. So fight or flight, let's let's talk about that. I I don't know if people understand what that is, but fight or flight, like when you're in a difficult situation and it's fight or flight. So you're reacting without necessarily thinking about what yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 13:07

Yeah. So what happens whenever we are triggered by any kind of a stimulus that is scary, it's it makes you angry, it feels like a violation of some sort, any kind of a negative stimulus. The brain immediately goes into this fight or flight mode. And it's actually not just fight or flight. We can go into fight mode, which is where we're like, you know, some people are just geared for that. Like I am, I am gonna fight you, I'm gonna everything you say to me, I'm coming back with something else. Like I will chirp for chirp, right? And then you've got the flight, which is where people might be hardwired to retreat. And so I'm just gonna get away from the situation as as quickly as I can. Uh, and then we have fawn, and fawning is where we just give in. And I think that's perhaps where this grandfather was hoping that if he got aggressive enough that you would just say, Oh, you know what, sir, it's fine. I'm so sorry, I'll just give you what you want. Uh, but not everybody fawns, and not everybody fawns all the time, right? And then there is freeze. Some people just freeze up and they're not able to do anything at all. That's why, you know, when we watch these movies like Godzilla, yeah, I'm always I'm I'm always just or Jurassic Park, you know, we watch these movies and people see this this ginormous T-Rex coming for them, and they just stand there and they're rooted to the spot, and everybody in the theater is going, Run, why aren't you running? Right? Like the and they're just frozen because that is an aspect of this fight, flight, fawn, freeze response. So, yeah, when that happens, it's very difficult to come up with an alternate response than the one your body sort of automatically chooses, because, like I said, higher order thinking is kind of shut off. So the way that we re-engage that is number one, by taking as many deep breaths as we're capable, because then it pushes oxygen back up into our frontal lobe so that we can do better at decision making. And then the other thing we need to do is once we start pushing oxygen into the frontal lobes and they re-engage is to start asking ourselves some key questions really quick, right? So that we can make some informed decisions. So those questions include what's happening, what does this mean? How do I feel about it? What should I do? What's my what's my desired outcome? Right. So in your case with McDonald's, your desired outcome was I want my coffee, right? I want my medium double double. That is what I want. So knowing that that's what you want, then you say, okay, what's the best thing I can do to get that outcome? Yeah. What are my choices? And then once you look at that, you say, Well, I'm just gonna let this guy walk away and I'll I'll reorder. What's the worst thing that can happen if you let him walk away? You have to wait an extra five minutes for your coffee. What's the best thing that can happen if you let him walk away? You get the satisfaction of him drinking something that he didn't order. Plus, you get a fresh coffee. Yeah, yeah. This is good. This is a good choice. Yeah. With the with the screaming customer, what is it that you want? Number one, you want to be safe, right? Number two, you also want to stay employed, which means you're not going to sell him out alcohol to a miner. So you're going to stick by the store policy and you're going to remain as calm as possible. Now, what's the worst thing that can happen if you remain calm and stick to the policy? He might get real mad, he might come back and destroy some stuff. But if you destroy some stuff, he's going to get arrested and he'll have to pay for it all. So that's not on you, right? Yeah. Best thing that can happen is he leaves the store and he doesn't try this foolishness again. So when you process it through like that, it's easier to come to a conclusion of what's the best course of action to take in this moment. But we first have to re-oxygenate our brains so that we can do that deeper level of thinking, right?

SPEAKER_01: 17:11

Yeah. Yeah. So getting back to the conversation at hand, you know, and the series itself, like this is a series devoted to women in their 40s. And I think what you your experience and um your knowledge around um anger and raise, rage, you know what I mean? I think there's a lot of things that come up in your 40s. I think I don't know if you've had a lot of clients in that age group, but I think like, you know, mood swings and like perimenopause and like depression and and all the symptoms and like things that come up as a woman in this stage of life. Like, you know what I mean? It's a different stage of your life. And so some days you're you're on it and some days you're not. And so when you speak to your clients about this journey or the stage of life, this next chapter, what do you help them tackle?

SPEAKER_03: 18:06

Great question. Yeah, it's a lot, it's a lot. Perimenopause and menopause is no joke. Um and uh I I have several clients who are in this in this phase of their life's journey. Uh so there are things that typically what I would encourage people to do is first and foremost, let's rule out all the things. Because that they're coming to me for psychological symptoms, right? I'm depressed, I'm anxious, I'm angry, whatever. Let's rule out all the organic possibilities for why you're feeling this. So when we're talking about organic things, we're talking about is it paramo is it perimenopause? Is there a hormonal imbalance? Um, is your thyroid out of whack? Right? Let's look at all of these different things. Um, have you ever had a head injury? Are is your sleep disordered? So we look at all of these very basic things, and whatever we can can get answers from our doctors or through blood work, I encourage clients to do that first. If the thyroid comes back, thyroid levels are within, you know, are within the normal parameters, there's nothing out of whack with the blood work, everything looks fine. Then we would look at, okay, so how old are you? What are your perimenopause symptoms? Right. Uh, because when doctors do blood work, they're not checking for hormone levels and balances and that sort of thing. They're checking for all the other stuff. Yeah. They don't they don't really care. They don't really care about perimenopause and menopause that much. And that's because they haven't been taught much about it. They get, I think uh one uh doctor I saw, she interviewed a bunch of OBGYN students, and they said that they had gotten less than two weeks of education on perimenopause and menopause in their entire time in medical school. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So they're not learning a lot about it, so they don't have much to offer. So when we want our hormone levels checked, then we've got to go specifically ask for that, right? Which is what I have to do. Yes. So I I want to know what are my what are my estrogen levels, what are my progesterone levels, what are my testosterone levels. I want I need to know all of that because if things are out of whack, then maybe I need some hormone replacement, even in perimenopause. And this is something that most doctors do not talk about at all. And I am not an expert on this. I'm just sharing what I what I have learned because I've had my own journey.

SPEAKER_01: 20:42

Yeah, I always say, I guess um, yeah, with a disclaimer here that you know, we're just basing it off of our own experience. And like, so if you are feeling the symptoms of perimenopause and menopause, just please talk to your doctor. Because even with me, like I am 41 and um I have a pre-existing condition, which my gynecologist could sing it's because of that. But I'm like, why am I going getting hot and I'm cold? And then it's usually on the week of my period. So I'm just like, it's it's pretty, um, Julie. Um, when you think about that. But yeah, it's like, well, next time I go now, it's like, well, we're gonna have to think about a workup, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03: 21:23

So yeah, because the the challenge is, you know, like for me, I also had pre-existing conditions. I number one, I have a blood disorder. Number two, I had endometriosis. Number three, I had ovarian cysts and the and fibroids, which nobody told me about. I had fibroids for years, nobody mentioned them, even though they knew they were there. So there's all of this stuff going on. Yeah. And uh I struggled and struggled and struggled and struggled until the point where I started begging doctors, like, would somebody please just take this plumbing out? I don't want it anymore. It's causing me so much hassle. I don't want it. I have my kids, I'm happy in my life, I do not need this thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:07

And no one would do it. Oh, wow. So I guess you're dealing at a different time where they weren't offering now, they're offering.

SPEAKER_03: 22:16

They would not do it for me. I went to two OBs and they both refused. One offered me an IUD and I was like, that will not solve my problem. That will compound my problem. The other one said she just refused to do it. I found out later on, like years down the road, that neither of them were were qualified to do the procedure that I was asking for, which is why they both denied me. Instead of being honest and saying I I'm not authorized to do it, they lied and made up foolishness. So, anyway, that was a whole other thing. So I I put up with all of my challenges for another almost 15 years before I finally just I was like, I cannot take this anymore because I'm a therapist. I have to sit in one place for at least an hour, sometimes an hour and a half. And when you're bleeding so heavily that you've got to take care of things every hour on the hour, or else you're gonna have an accident. And the bathroom is on the other side of the building in an office complex. There is no margin for error, right? I had extra changes of clothes at my work, I had extra shoes, I had all I had like an entire pharmacy in my office because there were times when I would get up off of a chair and and then I would be like, Okay, well, thank you for coming. I'll invoice you later, right? And then walking out the door, I'm like bathroom, hoping to God that nothing happens, you know, on the way there. It was insane. I couldn't live like that anymore. And so I finally went to my doctor, and I'll never forget this day. I went to my doctor and I said, like, I need to see someone. I can't do this anymore. And she said, Well, I've I've found you a doctor. I think that you'll be a good fit, but it's a nine-month wait. I got in my car and I drove to Port Deluzi in Niagara and I balled my eyes out, called my husband, hyperventilating. He's like, he he must have thought I'd been diagnosed with cancer or something because I was losing my mind. And he's like, Are you okay? Are you okay? Do I need to come? Like, what are you? And I was like, No, I'm just so upset. Like, if I were, if I were pregnant, if I were pregnant, she would have got me in there right away, right? Yeah. But because I am not a priority, my health is not a priority, I'm gonna wait for the full gestation period of a child before I get to talk to a doctor. I have to put up with another nine months of this. So nine months I waited to see that. You waited nine months? Wow. I had to. Oh. Then she got me. What did we do first? We did medication to try and shrink my fibroids. That did not work. Then we did thermal ablation to try and stop my periods. That did not work, which I kind of suspected it wouldn't, but I was like, let's try it anyway. So what the thermal ablation did was it took my 10-day periods down to seven-day periods. So shaped three days off, but it didn't change the heaviness or anything like that. So we had to wait two months to make sure the thermal ablation wasn't working. And then she said, Okay, I'll give you a hysterectomy. Thank you. How long is that gonna take? Another six months.

SPEAKER_00: 25:29

Diva tonight, glamour for your ears. This is 40, a female perspective.

SPEAKER_03: 25:36

So it was another 18 months after I saw her the first time before I actually had my uterus taken out.

SPEAKER_01: 25:42

We're looking at time here, because you said nine months, then you after the nine months I finally saw her. Yeah, that's how long it took.

SPEAKER_03: 25:49

So I guess I can't complain now. And when I finally got my uterus out, here's what she said to me. Now, Julie, when you wake up, because I said, take the ovaries too. They're growing cysts everywhere, like just take it all out. I don't need it. She said, now when you wake up, you're gonna be in full-blown menopause. I was like, okay, that was all she told me. What? That's all? That's it. You're gonna be in full blown menopause. Okay. She did not say here are the symptoms that you're gonna experience. She did not say here are the the treatment options. She did not suggest hormone replacement. She did not tell me that I would only need estrogen because without my ovaries, I don't need progesterone anymore. She didn't tell me any of that. She just said, We're gonna send you home after your surgery because nobody gets better in the hospital. And she sent me home. And that was it. And for the first five, I mean the first three years, girl, I was on fire. I was on fire. Like the guy from from uh oh, what's that? What's that action hero group? The the guy is elastic, and then the other guy catches on fire, Chris Evans. He would just go boop and his whole body would catch on fire. I was like, that's me. That's me. I mean, I would literally, I would, I would go up to my husband, I'd pull my shirt open, I'd go, feel this, and he'd put his hand here and you could like feel the heat radiating out of my clothes. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 27:09

But I want to know what year was this 2020.

SPEAKER_03: 27:12

2020 during the pandemic. Damn. I had my surgery.

SPEAKER_02: 27:16

Everything else.

SPEAKER_03: 27:17

I had my surgery in January. Oh my god. I was off until March. I went back to work, and a week later the world shut down. Yeah. So it was it was a really like, I mean, I I made it through. I I made it work, but I didn't know what I was doing, right? And then I found Dr. Mary Claire Haver on Instagram, and I soaked up every little piece of knowledge I could get from this woman because I was like, nobody is talking about this except for her. And she was the one who really educated me on hormone replacement therapy. And so, and what I like about her is that she shares the research, right? She's like, this study shows this, this study shows this, this study shows this, this is what you know. And so I went to my doctor, and that was only last year in the fall. I went to my doctor and I said, Hey, I would really like to be on hormone therapy. She goes, Why? I'm 54 and things don't work the way that they're supposed to. So, you know, doctors always want symptoms. So I'll say this to your listeners doctors want symptoms. They don't care how you feel about it. Don't go in there telling them, I, you know, I'm so upset, I'm so frustrated. They don't care. Yeah. Symptoms. I got my gynecologist's attention when I gave her my symptoms, when I actually did the math on how many products I was using every period and how frequently I had to use them. And I said, that equates to this equivalent of blood loss. Then she went, oh my God, let's do something. She didn't care about the fact that I couldn't get through a one-hour session. What she wanted was the number. So I gave her the data. So I did the same with my family doctor. I was like, this doesn't work, this doesn't work, this hurts. Right? I laid it all out. And then she prescribed it immediately. And so I've been using the estrogen gel now for just about a year. Game changer. Yeah. Um, now I also understand that some doctors don't want to even talk about it. No, they don't. But that's changing because the FDA in the US has now lifted the the cautions around hormone replacement therapy. They've acknowledged that the research that informed that decision was fake. It was bogus. So that's good. And I think perhaps now doctors might be more willing to have that conversation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 29:46

Yeah. I think it's important though, to have this conversation to what did my friend say to me? I have a friend who she's in her 40s and she's done both surgeries, and we've been doing the research together because, like you, I have. Fiber, it's too and boy, does that pain? It's very excruciating.

SPEAKER_02: 30:03

Listen, yeah, it's again no joke.

SPEAKER_01: 30:07

Yeah, we're supposed to be talking about anger, but I you know what it's one of anger.

SPEAKER_03: 30:11

It links because when you when you feel like garbage, your hormones are all over the place. Our hormones re are part of what regulates our mood. Oh, yes. Yeah. And you know, I I hear so many women, myself included, that are like, I just I just don't care. You know, like the We Do Not Care Club on Instagram is worldwide. Why? Because we're all in that place where it's like, I don't have it in me to care when my my uterus is contracting like I'm giving birth. I'm having this intense pain. Nobody cares that I can barely stand up. They still expect me to go to work anyways. People are being rude, and I don't have the energy for this, right? Like we all have that, right? Where it's just sort of like, I used to care about these things. Okay, I'm wearing track pants and a sweater, and my socks don't match, and I'm wearing Crocs, and my hair is still in a bonnet. I don't care. You should be grateful I got out of bed today. You know, like that's where we're at, right? So I think that the rage is real because women traditionally carry much of the emotional labor. We do a lot of the invisible labor, the planning, the scheduling, the who's gonna pick Johnny up from soccer, like all of that is women's work, right? Plus, we're managing households, plus we're working jobs, plus, plus, plus, plus. And then people are like, well, why can't you do this? And something snaps. You know, you get to a certain age where you're just like, bro, you did not just ask me what about this, right? You did not just sit on the couch with one hand down your pants and the other one flicking on the remote, asking me when supper's gonna be ready. You just know you didn't.

SPEAKER_01: 32:00

Yeah, yeah. I think, I think I my moods have definitely been on a roller coaster. And like, I I guess the one thing I guess we we should uh I should ask you is like when you are feeling the rage or if you are at work and you're just today's not a good day. Like, what should you say to your manager or whoever's in charge? Like, because sometimes you just need five minutes, right?

SPEAKER_03: 32:22

And so Yeah, then you ask for five minutes. You know, I think we have to get to the point where we don't have to tell everybody our life story, no, no, but to be able to ask your leadership to create a culture where a timeout is normalized, right? Yeah, like can we just can we just normalize this? Like if if I'm in the bathroom for more than two minutes, can you not ask me why? Because right, like when when you're on your heaviest period days, you don't want anybody going, Oh my god, you've been there for so long, leave me alone.

unknown: 32:59

Right?

SPEAKER_03: 33:00

I'm already embarrassed, I already feel gross. I don't even want to talk about what I just had to do.

SPEAKER_02: 33:06

Right?

SPEAKER_03: 33:06

Like, please don't comment, just leave it. Let's just normalize that sometimes people need additional time to take care of what's going on with their bodies, and we should not even be paying attention to it outside of just being having concern. Are you okay? Right? Are you okay? Yeah, I'm good. Are you sure? Do you need a couple more minutes? No, I'm fine. That should be the the conversation. Let's normalize that because women should not have to hide what they're going through. It's normal, it's natural, right? And this is what the doctors all tell us, right? Oh, what you're going through is normal. Yeah, I know. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

unknown: 33:49

Ready?

SPEAKER_01: 33:50

But how do I I have to find a way to, you know, to treat it? We have to find a solution because you know, Julie 2.0 is now Julie 1.0, and she's barely hanging on to a thread like that. Exactly. Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 34:05

Yeah. So I I think it's important to ask the people around you to show you some grace. And you know, like if you need to take time for you, take time for you. I was very much for a long time. I have to do this, I have to do this, I have to, you know, I made a commitment, I have to see it through. I mean, when I was a public speaker and I was traveling around the northeastern United States and and from Ontario out to the East Coast and Canada, sometimes I'd have to get in the car and drive for three hours. Wow. Now, when you're on your heaviest day, driving for three hours is a problem. Do you know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it's like, and you're in a rental car. Again, no margin for for any kind of error or mistake or accident. And if there is an accident, then you better be prepared on how you're going to take care of that before you return that card. You know, like all these things that we're constantly thinking about. And then you got to show up and you got to be your best self and all this kind of thing. And now I'm more of the mindset where if I don't feel like I can go to work, I will reach out to all of my clients and I will say, listen, I can't come to the office today. I need to do this virtually. And if you don't want to do it virtually, then we need to cancel and move it to another day. Because I just can't, you know, if I'm if I'm in bed with a heat pad on my belly and I'm in my comfortable clothes, and I know that once I get off this call, I can put on Netflix and drink some hot chicken soup and just feel sorry for myself while my uterus you know ties itself in nuts. Yeah. Then yes, I can do my session from from virtual. But if you need to see me in person, I can't do that today. I will not be there for you. Right? Like I'm honest with my clients because I think the other thing is too, I need to model self-care for my clients. And so if I know that I'm not going to be a good therapist today, then I'm canceling my appointments.

SPEAKER_02: 36:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 36:05

And I think there needs to be freedom for us to do that, to say, look, if I have to take a day without pay, okay. But again, women should not have to take a day without pay for something that is not their fault and without and outside of their control, and doctors won't help them with it. That should be pay sick leave, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01: 36:23

Right. I know. And I feel like we're we're slowly getting there. I mean, like the fact that now there's no tax on pads, but the thing is, even the time off of work, like I think Americans think that we get it. I had a guest think that, but we don't. So you're using your sick days. So when you have to take time off because you're in so much pain, excruciating pain.

SPEAKER_03: 36:46

Yeah, realistically, women should get at least 12 sick days per month just for the bad cramp day. Never mind flues and da da da and your kids getting sick and all the rest of it. Like we should probably get, I think what's what's the the like 15 sick days. I don't know if that is like something that EI, no, EI is 15 weeks. I'm sorry. Oh but yeah, 15 sick days I think is appropriate, but most places only give you eight. Yeah. And some give you even less than that. That is, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 37:16

Yeah, we are a long way from that, right?

SPEAKER_03: 37:18

So it's like mine all up, go to work because you're not you're not getting away with this, right? But it's not like it's not our fault, you know? And I think that that probably generates a little anger and resentment as well. Like, you know, if a guy got a vasectomy, how much time would he get to take off work? Because all of the men would be like, Oh, oh my god, dude, take as much time as you need, right?

SPEAKER_01: 37:41

But yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 37:43

Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01: 37:44

We have a long way to go. And I I feel like it's like the labor law board would have to get involved with that. There's a whole bunch with that, but yeah, who knows what the powers that be will decide on that. But with you and your career and how you've gotten to here and now, and we're talking about all the health things um that you know, as a therapist and a mom and you know, an author, you mentioned uh prior that, you know, there was a moment where you had to decide that you're gonna go back to school to start your career over again. And so when was that and when did you have that like wake up call?

SPEAKER_03: 38:28

So this would have been it started in 2008 when the economy crashed. I was getting zero speaking gigs, and when your business model depends on you getting speaking gigs, that was rough. So I made the decision at that point that I would go back to school. Uh no, I was going to uh go back to work to either full-time or a contract something, and I couldn't get a job, and I have a good resume, and no one was hiring. So then I'm in a situation where I'm not I'm not getting steady work, I'm not getting any gigs. So without gigs, it's hard to sell books because you've got to be in front of audiences to sell books. So what am I gonna do? So I was talking with a colleague of mine from when I was in the public speaking world, uh, working for another company, and he said, Well, there's an opportunity that I think would be a good one for you, since you know, I'll recommend you and we'll get you in there. So I went to work for the National Student Leadership Conference. Uh, this is a program that runs through the summer in the United States. It runs in different communities, and I was hired to work in New York City. So, okay, I I mean, I it meant not seeing my kids for a whole summer, which was kind of a drag, but we needed to generate some income. So I took this job. And while I was there, I just I I had a come to Jesus moment, I guess, where I was just like, I I can't get any further in my career with just the undergrad. As someone whose focus is psychology and, you know, like for the credibility, but also just for the doors that having a higher level degree would open for me. Most of the people I was working with were like the same age as my kids, maybe a little bit older, and some of them already had their master's degrees and were working on their PhDs, and they were all like babies, in my opinion. And I was like, what am I doing over here? Right? Like, and I had always said, Well, you know, my kids are in school, my daughter's starting university, this is happening, this is happening. I need to, whatever. No, they like at some point you just have to put the hammer down and say, I'm gonna do the thing. So this brings me to 2009. So I worked in New York City for the summer of 2009, and when I came home from that, I said to my husband, I'm going back to school. We're gonna have to figure this out because I am never ever, not that my time with NSLC was bad. It was just like, I I'm never doing that again. Right. But I'm never, I'm never gonna allow myself to be in a position where I have to settle anything. I want to be in a position where I always have leverage. And then I I opened my practice in the end of 2010, early 2011. And that was a game changer, right? Like now I have autonomy. And if I want to work more hours, right now I work three and a half days in my practice. I'm not working in the practice today, which means I can have a conversation with you, I can, you know, I can catch up on other things, I can work in my other business. If I want to take time off to travel, I can. If I want to take an extended afternoon to go on a hike with my husband, I can. And I can set my own hours, I can set my own rates, right? Within reason, they have to be with you know within the ethical standard, but I can set my own rates. I can decide how, when, where, and with whom I want to work. And that is the ultimate blessing, in my opinion. Yeah. Because if I gotta work, it'd be nice to work on my own terms.

SPEAKER_01: 42:10

Definitely. And I guess that's what you mean when you say autonomy, being able to work at your own schedule and not have to worry that, oh my gosh, I have to be at work for you know, one o'clock and I have to do this, this, and this, right? And so that takes away from that. So having the autonomy is amazing. What was your childhood like? Which part? Were your parents like entrepreneurs or creative people? And did they influence the work you do now?

SPEAKER_03: 42:39

I would say, I would say yes to all of that. My mom came from a long line of academics. My mom was a librarian. She was a career librarian. Wow. Yeah, she worked in the National Archives, worked in that beautiful library on Parliament Hill. Yeah, she was a career academic. My dad was an entrepreneur through and through. So on the one side of the family, we have doctors, lawyers, judges, uh, engineers, professors, you know, librarians, and then on my dad's side, we have people who are all about business. And so I got a good balance of both of those things. Now, my mom was also very entrepreneurial, and she ended up jumping into business with my dad in her latter years. And they managed to find the sweet spot in their business, traveled all over the world, went to all these different places. They, you know, they really made it work for them. So yeah, I think that that was the education I got in that regard, in terms of seeing both the success and the struggle was helpful. I will also say, though, that there were some things that my parents inadvertently taught me that have not served me well. And one of the biggest things I can say is how my mom always used to say, you're gonna have to work twice as hard and be twice as good because you're black and a woman. I reject that now. I just reject that. I am who I am. If I'm a black woman and you don't like that, you don't have to work with me. Pisa. Yeah. Right. Again, I think that's part of the we do not care phase that I'm in. But it's like, if I tell my clients, look, go on my website and see what I look like before you book an appointment with me. Because if you see my picture and you go, Oh, I don't want to work with her, that's fine. Go with God. I will help you find another therapist. But what I don't want is I don't want people coming into my space because now I have autonomy. Right? I do not want you coming in my space and trying to tell me how to run my business or how to do my job.

SPEAKER_02: 44:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 44:39

No. So if you're uncomfortable with the way I do things, I tell all my clients up front, this is how I work, this is what I'm like, these are my weaknesses, these are my strengths. If you don't feel comfortable with that, at any time you can tell me, and I will happily help you find another therapist. And I won't be offended because what I want is for you to get well. What I want is for you to be able to live your best life and have really good mental health. And if I'm not the person who can help you do that, I'll help you find someone else. Please don't come in here trying to convince me that I should believe your ideas when your ideas are ideas that harm people like me. I'm not going to embrace that. Please don't come in here and insult my family or insult my children, which has happened from clients. I'm just not accepting that, right? So yeah, I think it's I think that whole idea of you've got to work twice as hard, it set me up for this thing where I was always working to try and please other people, to impress them, to get their approval. Now we do not care.

SPEAKER_01: 45:44

You are a force to be reckoned with. So thank you, thank you for being on the show. It's been quite the experience. So thank you again. I'm Carlene, and this is Diva Tonight with Julie Christensen. Check out the app, it's Anger Solutions. And yeah, I'll see you on the flip side, I guess. Yeah. All right. Thank you so much. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_00: 46:05

Diva Tonight with Carleen will be back. Send us a message on Instagram at Diva underscore tonight.