Ever been caught at the end of a meal, wallet in hand, wondering just how much to tip - or if at all?
That's the exact conundrum we unpack in today's lively podcast, where we navigate the new Employment Allocation of Tips Act 2023, set to revolutionise UK's service industry. Join us as we delve into the principles of fairness and transparency in tip distribution, sharing tales from across the globe that highlight just how varied tipping practices can be. We've got the latest guidance for businesses too, ensuring they're on track with the upcoming legal standards.
Now, let's talk about the money side of things. Have you ever pondered why that bottle of wine at dinner seemed pricey, only to find out about the hefty service charge, on top of that mark-up, later? We're pulling back the curtain on the economics of tipping within the restaurant scene, from how service charges might fatten up revenue, to the ongoing debate over menu pricing that includes it all. We even sprinkle in some personal experiences and cultural contrasts between UK and US tipping habits, seasoning our discussion with a little global flavour.
For a heartier serving of insight, we recall those standout moments in customer service — both the dazzling and the dismal. Like that time when the absence of lemon in a lemon chicken dish had us questioning the very essence of gratuity. Or the awkwardness of contesting a service charge in sunny California, where tipping expectations had us tangled in a social and financial faux pas. Through these stories, we explore the intricate dance of respect and reward in the service industry, leaving you with a taste of the emotional and economic layers of tipping.
The new rules are going to shake things up – and adds increased complexity to this emotional subject. Please listen and share!
For more info, free resources, useful content, & our blog posts, please visit realitytraining.com.
Reality Training - Selling Certainty
Ever been caught at the end of a meal, wallet in hand, wondering just how much to tip - or if at all?
That's the exact conundrum we unpack in today's lively podcast, where we navigate the new Employment Allocation of Tips Act 2023, set to revolutionise UK's service industry. Join us as we delve into the principles of fairness and transparency in tip distribution, sharing tales from across the globe that highlight just how varied tipping practices can be. We've got the latest guidance for businesses too, ensuring they're on track with the upcoming legal standards.
Now, let's talk about the money side of things. Have you ever pondered why that bottle of wine at dinner seemed pricey, only to find out about the hefty service charge, on top of that mark-up, later? We're pulling back the curtain on the economics of tipping within the restaurant scene, from how service charges might fatten up revenue, to the ongoing debate over menu pricing that includes it all. We even sprinkle in some personal experiences and cultural contrasts between UK and US tipping habits, seasoning our discussion with a little global flavour.
For a heartier serving of insight, we recall those standout moments in customer service — both the dazzling and the dismal. Like that time when the absence of lemon in a lemon chicken dish had us questioning the very essence of gratuity. Or the awkwardness of contesting a service charge in sunny California, where tipping expectations had us tangled in a social and financial faux pas. Through these stories, we explore the intricate dance of respect and reward in the service industry, leaving you with a taste of the emotional and economic layers of tipping.
The new rules are going to shake things up – and adds increased complexity to this emotional subject. Please listen and share!
For more info, free resources, useful content, & our blog posts, please visit realitytraining.com.
Reality Training - Selling Certainty
Good afternoon listeners and good afternoon Bobby, and we're both delighted that the sun is upon us.
Speaker 2:I'd like to first of all say apologies to anybody listening to this podcast in the morning, because Jeremy's chosen the afternoon because that's when we're recording it, but of course you could listen to this podcast at any time.
Speaker 1:Well, no, I would say. If you've started, you must now press pause and you have to wait till tomorrow afternoon. If you're ahead.
Speaker 2:No, I'm sorry. I think we must allow our listeners to listen any time to the podcast that they want to, and not be so fascist about timings.
Speaker 1:Some people may have only just got up, so instead of actually greeting them with good morning, we could still say good afternoon and get away with it.
Speaker 2:Well, that's true, but again we are alienating anybody who's listening before 12. Hmm, bob and Jeremy's Conflap the Reality Podcast. Bob and Jeremy's Conflab the reality podcast. So welcome to Bob and Jeremy's Conflab.
Speaker 2:We are going off in another direction today, but it does actually link back to some of the podcasts that we've done a little while ago on service and thinking a bit about behaviors, and also we did some stuff about bad management and there's a lot of subject matter flying around at the moment.
Speaker 2:I've just been listening to the today podcast, all about economics, and there's a lot of stuff there which is slightly depressing about our aging population and what have you and the cost of things and very little wriggle room, and that's within the economy as a whole. So if you now bring that down to the world of customer service in restaurants and of course you could extend this to barbers and taxes and things like that as well there's a whole new law coming in to manage the way that we are charged and in particular we're talking about tips and service charges and many of us will have seen at the bottom of our bills 12.5% service charge added, and the new law is coming in to right a historic wrong and I think it's probably fair to say, jeremy, that many people didn't realise that it was a wrong, did they?
Speaker 1:When you say they didn't realise it was a wrong, you mean the owners of the restaurants, the owners of the establishments.
Speaker 2:No, they knew it was a wrong, I think customers made a huge assumption that the service charges would be split amongst the staff.
Speaker 1:Let's explain what it is. It's called the Employment Allocation of Tips Act 2023. So the Act was raised, but it doesn't come into effect. Till the 1st of July this year. We'll make it unlawful for employers to withhold tips from workers.
Speaker 1:The new law will introduce a number of changes to tipping practices in the UK and, if not adhered to, could have substantial financial consequences for employers, with awards of up to 5,000 per employee to reflect losses suffered. Now it protects tips paid by cash and cards. So I don't know if you're like Bob's saying, consumers not realizing this. I would often say to a waiter ooh, will you get it if I put it on the card? Do you need it in cash? So it ensures that tips are passed on to employees without any deductions that's the point from their employer and they should be allocated fairly. And all workers are protected by the new law, including those on zero hour contracts. You know those famous HR assassins who come in and try and save companies money by creating zero hour contracts.
Speaker 1:So hotels, bars, restaurants what you're actually going to have to do and this is a I actually refer listeners to this site very good law firm We've jumped on this called Walker Morris walkermorriscouk. They will help you with the bit of the law that's tricky. You have to create a sort of distribution document if you were checked, because it will also be knocking on the door of employment and immigration. If you're not doing that properly, you see it could expose other things and you have to fairly disperse your tips and prove that you have a proper disbursement policy. So that's all the boring bit. To kick off the podcast. I don't think we need to say any more about the law. But July 2024, bobby and I will be sitting in a restaurant. We'll have this is an imaginary world momentarily would have received extraordinary service and we'll want to tip the waiter waitress and we'll have the full confidence that he, she, will be keeping that cash or that cash will be going into a pool for fair disbursement.
Speaker 2:Okay, so let's just go back to a fundamental question. Really, why do we have to tip?
Speaker 1:well, my research and I know you've done some too doesn't really give us that answer. I think the most interesting research I have is from germany and france. In the language of tipping, so in germany a tip is called a trink geld and, yeah, in french it's a poor boy and if you translate this it just means drinking money. So trink geld is a bit of geld for the, and poor boy, boy, boisson boy. The verb to drink. It's for you to have a drink, so I give you a little bit of money and that means that you can have a drink on me later. So I think it's cultural that we well, you worked in a pub growing up. I'll have one later. Let me buy the barman a drink. And that extended as hospitality grew.
Speaker 1:This is me imagining into rewarding people with a little bit of something to have a drink off, so I can't place it historic.
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of stuff online when you look at this subject, which says that we're becoming more and more americanized because, of course, tipping is endemic across america for so many things, uh, to the point where it is actually assumptive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's in no way discretionary in america in certain places. I remember the first time you and I went, jeremy, we got to newark airport after landing in new jersey and a gentleman told us what our fare was going to be to our hotel, what the charges were and what the tip was. They just added it all together. There was no moment where we were thinking we weren't going to be paying that tip.
Speaker 1:We had to pay that tip well, if listeners don't know, the usa, canada and columbia are right up in the higher ranking. It's expected to be 15 to 20 percent of your bill, so that's like paying more than corporation tax on your on your thing. So 15 to 20 percent, so that is, as you just said, standardized and what you're also calling about this rocketing is nice little word called tipflation so it's the inflation of tips. There was a survey carried out in the us. I think you you used the word assumptive just then yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they asked US consumers do you think that tipping is an obligation or do you think it's a choice? Well, 29% believed it was an obligation. Okay, 21% a choice. And that ridiculous thing the other percentage went. Oh, it depends. But what we're saying is most people in the US believe it's an obligation that you pay it. They don't really have the choice.
Speaker 2:But you see, isn't that interesting? 15 to 20%. So let's say you've got a dish which is $20. Yeah, okay. So let's say you know there's a plate of food for $20. You could add $4 to that dish and have no tip. Okay, and just say tips are included, just make it $24 instead. Now, psychologically then the people think, well, it's quite expensive for that, but actually when the bill comes you're paying it anyway, so why not just include it? Now, that's a big thing that I've been reading about is there's now a movement in certain restaurants to all inclusive. Everything is included, gr gratuities. This is not a tipping restaurant. I've been to one of those in America. Actually, I haven't been to one in the UK yet.
Speaker 1:I think, just coming in on that yeah, if you were to have the dish for $20 and let's say it's a fish dish or whatever it is, if you thought that's not comparable, that I'm paying $24 for that fish dish in other places, the challenge you'd have is you're marking up, you're trying to get a $24 dish to compete against $20 dishes.
Speaker 2:But the point is that if you signposted early doors in this restaurant there are no gratuities, Everything is included you would expect to pay a little more for the food, but you know there's not going to be a a 40 addition at the bottom of your bill. It's a change in thinking. It is.
Speaker 1:It's the same money yeah, but we're a couple of brits speaking. If I said that to an american, they might go. I think that would take a while to change that behavior because I prefer to know the fish is costing me 20. It's up to me to to reward the waitress.
Speaker 2:But it isn't up to you because that service charge is there. It's not up to you because you're paying it anyway, and I think this is the odd thing about it. Now, the difference is this, and I think we've really got to make this point we, as many other consumers have thought, believe that the service charge 10%, 15% was the tip was going to the waiting staff, was going to the chef or whatever, and maybe some of it was. But if actually it's just an additional charge and I heard a guy being interviewed about this the other day on a podcast and he said restaurants only make money from wine and service charges. The markup on food is tiny and therefore they only make money from wine and service charges Well, if that's the the case, then they're going to have to put their prices up because great, we've got more prices going up great, brilliant your service charge has to go to your staff.
Speaker 2:Now, you have no choice there. So if you're going to have a service charge, you're going to have to give it to the staff. And and as for the wine, well, I found out some stats on wine. They make your hair curl. I mean it's absolutely ridiculous what they charge. There is a whole thing about this, because I've also thought for a while if alcohol is so hugely marked up in restaurants, why do we tip against it?
Speaker 1:well, because it's bundled in, isn't it?
Speaker 2:it's bundled in. You're already making a fortune on that bottle of wine, so why don't I just pay you a percentage of the food cost as a service charge?
Speaker 1:Because, the bill is run up.
Speaker 2:You've just opened yeah, but you've just opened a bottle of wine which a child could do, yeah. So you know, it's an interesting. That's another perspective on it.
Speaker 1:Well, I think the other thing we should talk about right at the outset, even though we're well into this episode now, is, I think I feel that I'm rewarding good service with a tip absolutely right or not rewarding with no tip yeah, absolutely right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they're still being paid. By the way, they're still getting the person just you're, you're serving, you is being paid regardless.
Speaker 1:Well, let's talk about our experience. Just the other night, which I think would bring it into focus. We went to a curry house in lewis. Yep, his service was nowhere near as good as the buckingham fort, no, and so therefore, when we came to tip, I thought we've had to call you loads of times and there's no one in here. You're late with this, late with that. I didn't feel I wanted to tip as much as I would do for another curry experience I totally agree.
Speaker 2:So for the tip is saying thank you for speediness, friendliness, chat, whatever, recommendations, knowledge, skill, humour, all of those kind of things which are part of the experience, but that's why, when we got to know those waiters in Princeton all those years ago, they said to us that's why we know that whenever the English come over, we know they never tip because we think they're a bunch of tight asses. Well, they didn't want our table, do you remember?
Speaker 1:No, it was only because we knew the girl We'd met a girl from another place who was friendly. She then talked to the waiter and said these guys are friends of mine. Now they're fine, but no one took our table of Brits over there. Who wants them? We're not going to get our 20% out of there. There you go.
Speaker 2:So, again, that's cultural, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, whereas you know, if we have amazing service and actually in America the service is by and large way better than we get over here so of course you're going to reward it in some form, which again is an odd one, why do we actually do that? But then over here, almost automatically in the last 15 years, the service charge comes in 10%, 12.5%, 15%, they're going up, and one chain in London have brought in to circumvent this new law. They brought in a thing called a brand charge, which is 15%, already brought it in, which is already percent, already brought it in, and that will be. And they're being criticized for that, because they're being explicit that this is an additional charge on top of your food, which is not a tip. So you're being charged this service charge and it's it's just a charge for you, for you to be, to actually be there, and I suppose if you want to tip, you have to either tip someone directly you know, have more fascinating the marketing director there, using the word brand charge, young people could brand.
Speaker 1:It's a good brand you know I'm part of, I mean outrageous.
Speaker 2:I'm at the behest of the brand I've experienced the brand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, that makes my stomach go a little, I think well, again, what you're doing is you are blatantly saying there is an additional charge for you to eat here because business rates are high, employment costs, electricity, power, energy is high. To run a restaurant of any type these days is extremely expensive and, rather than it being an additional income stream, actually for some it will be. I think for many it is a lifeline, and there's a huge amount of concern that this is going to drive many restaurants out of business and pubs and others who are already struggling.
Speaker 1:Thompson was quite vociferous. This will be going back 20 years. In one of the other roundups of minimum wage increase he was arguing against the minimum wage increase across his restaurants because he was saying I can't afford to pay any more to my waiters and bar staff and bus boys and so on, and if they're prepared to do the job for that, I throw in some other stuff. They all get fed such and such. I don't really want to pay them anymore. And he was quite strong in saying that the amount of money they're already receiving is enough for that. Yeah, extraordinary, isn't it? Temporary period of time and so on.
Speaker 2:Well, at the same time, there is a question mark over. You do these jobs. Why? Because you're good in front of people, you enjoy it, you enjoy the interaction, you get something out of it, you're motivated to do it. In many cases in other sorts of establishment, you do the job because there's nothing else you have to do it, you're on the lowest hourly rate and any tips you get on top make up your poor hourly rate to a slightly better hourly rate. That's what we're talking about here and that's where I think, at the lower end, this is really, really dodgy, because I think what's going to happen is that you've got people who are paid, you know, £8.50, £9 an hour maybe, and if they're under 21, by the way, or under 18 even then it's even lower. So there are very, very low rates of pay, and that additional tippage might give you an extra pound or two an hour.
Speaker 1:We're saying that's vital, but you're also saying some of those jobs may be lost. Oh yeah, Because the restaurant can't carry the additional loss of income.
Speaker 2:I can't see how they can. Yeah, Now it's interesting. There's a restaurant opened in Lewis recently. I haven't been in there yet. It's a very nice looking restaurant with some amazing wines in the window. They've got a beautiful shelf of wine and I'm sorely tempted to go in there. However, I've done some research today on wine in restaurants and the percentages. You just think I can't see how they can justify it really. Let me ask you this question what do you think the average markup is in percentage terms against the retail cost of a bottle of wine in a restaurant? 46%, Okay, If it was that low, you'd be out of business in a few days I've gone high.
Speaker 2:Okay, the average markup on a bottle of wine against retail is 300%, so a tenner bottle of wine will be 30 quid. Okay, on average.
Speaker 1:God, aren't I naive.
Speaker 2:There we go.
Speaker 1:I'd sell that for 15 quid. No, no chance, Okay there you go.
Speaker 2:Now it's even worse. Just to make you realize that of course the £10 is the retail price. If I'm buying in bulk, I'm going to get it for six or seven, Okay. So I'm making even more on that bottle. And I read about one chap who had varied wines in his place, but everyone asked for marlborough, new zealand, sauvignon blanc. Sauvignon blanc, sauvignon blanc. Okay.
Speaker 2:He found a bulk supplier who could give him a bottle of four dollars, okay, and he was selling it for 50 nice now that's a huge markup and he said he had other wines that were better value, nicer, uh, lower markup, but people just wanted the new zealand, and it was just and and fifty dollars. What the hell? They were just doing it and he was making a fortune. Now let's think about that as a single premise, that you're making 300 on your wine. Okay, and actually so for me to give you 15 on that.
Speaker 2:30 quid, that's another four pound, 50 on top, you've just made 215 percent yeah, it says 315 percent for a single bottle of wine yeah, that's ludicrous why are we tipping the wine? I don't get that.
Speaker 1:I just don't get I I don't, I don't know we where we've had these arguments before. I remember during the pandemic, when restaurants were closing, everyone looked at the large owners of shopping centers who were renting to Strada and Jamie's Italian and all that kind of mid-range market, yeah, yeah, and how they were shutting down like nobody's business. Well, they were relying on quite healthy numbers of people adding it into their shopping experience mid-market, mid-range, but british land and all the people who own these kind of buildings were still charging pretty healthy rental sums and the whole thing just ticked along it. It worked, so the markups were good. So I don't fully back and believe when they all say they're going to go bust with this. I think I think there's. I think there's a pyramid involved.
Speaker 1:Reality Training was created in 2001 by Bob and Jeremy, both actors who met at drama school. In 2001, by Bob and Jeremy, both actors who met at drama school, reality delivers training that is effective, memorable and entertaining, with a touch of theatricality to bring it to life. We now have a company of trainers, actors and coaches who you can work with to create change programs across your business. Please contact us via realitytrainingcom. Please contact us via realitytrainingcom.
Speaker 2:Let's imagine that you have got one of these big restaurants in a nice position, maybe in an airport, and let's imagine it turns over a million a year and some of them will turn over way more than that. Yeah, okay. So a million a year, you've got your 12.5% on top. That's £120,000 in service charges on that million turnover. Okay, that's essentially free money. Okay, so you've got all the costs you've just been talking about, all your rates, all your staffing costs, etc, etc. But you've got 120 a year cash injection simply from transactions. That's just free money essentially. And people already paid the markup on the booze They've already made. You've made some money on the food, it's you know. In that sense it's a huge amount of money. And then you go into a chain who are turning over 10 million. Then 1.2 million a year is in service charge money, 1.2 million just in credit card transactions.
Speaker 1:Okay, it's mad money 1.2 million just in credit card transactions. Okay, it's mad. So, interestingly enough, the chains that have multiple investors wanting their money back don't own their own buildings. This seems possibly more vital to a family-owned mortgage-free yeah. So there might be some independents that come through this quite nicely and some of the chains that had well, I don't know, it's going to be very interesting. I think one thing that's going to bound to happen is they've already got the percentage on the booze that can't move too much, but they're all going to mark the food up. The food's going to rocket, the food's going to have to go up, but then, in which case, less people will go, then you create you're in the same pressure on the sector. Yeah, it's poor historically. When I worked at cafe bohem there, was no minimum wage law.
Speaker 1:I kept all of the tips, so that's one thing he did do is we kept every red cent of it, but it was all cash.
Speaker 2:It was a cash economy oh, I agree, and I was the same. When I worked at the swan in tunbridge wells, I used to do saturday nights in the hotel bar. It was very faulty towers, you know, and I was, you know, bowtied up and, uh, you know, all the usual bum flufferies and I was often handed cash tips from people who I was serving. All I was doing was serving them drinks. It wasn't a cocktail bar, it was no, you know, it was no skin off my nose, I was was being paid anyway, but there was a feeling that they wanted to reward my joie de vivre with a few quid, and I was delighted to accept it, of course. But again, I think we've really got to make a distinction between personal reward. Here's a lovely guy get you a, a drink. Back to your original point now, of course, when I worked in pubs and you worked in pubs, if somebody bought you a drink and they were buying around, you could have it yeah, okay, so I'll have a half with you.
Speaker 2:Don't mind if I do yeah, that's or you know now, these days nobody drinks behind the bar, which I think is absurd yeah and so you, you take the money, do you.
Speaker 1:How does that get? You're not meant to?
Speaker 2:you're not meant to.
Speaker 1:You're meant to run the money you're meant to run the money through the till. Let the owner make the profit margin on the beer and you pour the beer it's extraordinary, isn't it?
Speaker 2:have it at the end of your shift. My grandfather, joe morel, the late great joe morel. He worked in a series of pubs around clark and well, and whenever he was bought a drink he would take the money and put it in a little pot.
Speaker 1:It was a tip.
Speaker 2:That's great okay now again, that's a personal thing and I think many of our listeners will think well, okay, if I go to a barber's, if I get a taxi and the guy's efficient and quick and a good laugh and whatever personal reward, yep, I'll physically reward this person in some way with some money. But I think this idea of now the way the service charge has come in, I think what it's done is actually it's now biting back at the people who brought it in to use it as a revenue stream, because they're now thinking hang on a minute, oh no, I've got to give all of this to the staff.
Speaker 2:So maybe if they worked on it in a slightly other way, they might have had a halfway house or called it tips, for your server actually called it that on the on the thing that might have made a massive difference. Service charge sounds like really what on top of everything? You want me to pay this on top and I will never forget. I won't. We won't say where this is. We went for a Christmas party once to a very, very top restaurant and it should have been wonderful and the service was average to poor. There was a huge service charge and this was a couple of weeks before Christmas and they wanted us out before 9.30 so they could give the table to somebody else. Now do you really think I'm going to give that brand a tip and be happy about paying their service charge when actually the service is appalling and they're hurrying us along? That's outrageous. That's absolutely outrageous. And what happens is this you just don't go back.
Speaker 1:Well, that's right, you just vote with your feet. I mean, there's some we're a country that has this sort of odd relationship with that. The us are much further down the road of sort of obliged brazil, chile, around 10. The netherlands publish it all, so it's all in print saying exactly what's going to happen. So you know, japan, none of this, there's none of this. It's all part of the game. There's no culture. It the price is the price. That's where it is.
Speaker 1:Iran if you really have been charmed, you leave a gift for the person who served you, you don't? It's nothing about money. What a little, a little trinket. I don't know whatever key rings you notice they didn't have one. I think the wider debate that appeals to me is if you are wanting to earn money by being brilliant in customer service. Restaurants have been a fantastic ground for you to go into, because you know you get food. You, you can be a low income but work your way up, and then then you're you get food. You, you can be a low income but work your way up, and then then you're in hospitality and then you're managing people and so on, so on. If they don't get this right, this will be another sort of point of journey into work being cut off or reduced.
Speaker 2:Yes, I is an interesting one because and then you structure your menu so there's no tips and no service charge, it's just decide on the pricing. I was just thinking back to years ago. There were two restaurants I liked, one in london, one in bristol that were Italian and every server in that place was way over 50. Okay, and male they were all male and the service was just off the charts friendly, funny, quick, efficient, knew all about the dishes, personality and charm, you know, just fantastic. Now, in that kind of scenario, of course they would have benefited from tips and service charges, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:But I wonder whether when that's your full time job, you're a pro. You've been doing it for 20 or 30 years. Of course you're on a salary. You're already on a salary, you're on a salary per year. The standard of your service is not going to deviate. You're always going to be brilliant and people are going to go to that restaurant because of you. Absolutely Not much emphasis is put on that. That you know if you've got a really good server. People come back every week. Let's go and see that lovely guy you know, which is actually brilliantly lampooned in the league of gentlemen when this couple who are unhappy.
Speaker 2:Go to see an italian restaurant with luigi because he lifts their spirits they're so depressed until he comes in luigi, luigi, and then it turns out his name isn't luigi, but wonderful, you know, that's the point that if you've got a really, really good level of service, then you are the custom is going to be, then the custom is going to be such, your regular custom is going to be such. And come back to Indian restaurants. We go back to the same Indian restaurants when the service is amazing all the time, because that's the reason, that's how they absolutely lock in their revenues and they lock in their longevity, because they're absolutely brilliant. And I think we have a real disconnect between those two things with this service charge, with this new law that actually, if your service is poor, now this law has come in, everybody is going to be way much more conscious and I hope that the places that are brilliant and have great people, people flock to them because that's going to make everyone work harder.
Speaker 1:You talked about the top restaurants that have employed waiters permanently. Maybe the kind of casual relationship with staff will change and they'll say look, we want to make a commitment to you. If you make a commitment to us, maybe you'll have more places deciding that actually just being brilliant. Having the volume of customers is now going to be more important than the tip. There's going to be such a sort of spotlight held over this tipping principle. Right, let's do, let's do. Three is the magic number.
Speaker 2:Three is the magic so nice, easy one.
Speaker 1:What's the best customer service you've ever had when it comes to bars, restaurants, hospitality?
Speaker 2:I think I've mentioned this before, but it was in new york. It was in the grammer sea tavern, which is not a low-cost restaurant. We went in. All of the servers are women of a certain age, all wearing beautiful outfits and their knowledge of each individual cocktail, each individual dish. The best way to go through the menu is just amazing and you have an amazing meal. And then the bill comes at the end. This is not a tipping restaurant. Our service is included. We hope you had a wonderful time. They do not want to tip. Now, that was shocking because it was in America, but it was also a great example of exemplary service that wasn't hustling for tips. They were just that good because they chose to be. And my question to you is what is the best customer service you've had?
Speaker 1:I think I possibly am in California and it's two summers ago and I wish I could remember the place. It was a California town, a traditional US restaurant. We looked, we didn't understand the menu in any way and the prices were very high to us as UK foreign travelers. And this woman in her 60s came over and just said oh, it looks complex. Start small, work your way through it. Don't don't order as you go. Our chefs are quick, don't worry about spending a fortune on these mouths because you don't know the portion sizes. You, you just start small and we'll work. And it was like took all the pressure off and we tasted different things and then some kids were more hungry than others and we added dishes as we went, which was a really nice way. Rather than what's your starter, what's your main, what's your put, lock it in. It was just come and go as you please that that was.
Speaker 1:That's the most recent good experience, and I will try and find out what the place was called yeah so worst service for you.
Speaker 2:Well, my question to you is similar. Is it? Can you remember a time when you didn't tip because the service was so bad? So that's a slightly different question. I've had lots of bad service, but I'm just thinking about a time where it was so particularly poor that we you or I, or whatever we didn't feel a tip was was warranted, didn't think it was was worth I know one with tash when we were on holiday in torquay.
Speaker 1:I ordered the lemon chicken and there was no lemon in it. It was just a dry piece of chicken. I said there's no lemon, is there some lemon? It's a lemon chicken dish. And he went. Other people have had it and they haven't complained.
Speaker 2:So we didn't give him a tip no, have you ever, on that, removed a service charge before paying the bill?
Speaker 1:possibly not just being too bloody english and what you just said earlier just crossing it off the list and not going there again I'm sure that's the more default habit for a bit disgruntled off we go. We're not going back there again.
Speaker 2:I can't remember a time where I I don't think I've ever done that, but I'm just trying to think of a time that there have been times when I've been away on business where the service has been average or below average and I haven't tipped because I just think no you know, please give me, me something to to reward you if there's nothing to reward, yeah, vacant.
Speaker 1:Looking around doing the Michael winner thing, waving the napkin yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:It's funny. My son, charlie, has just recently started a job serving at a wedding venue, and I'm not sure what the tipping scenario is there, but he says what's quite interesting is that people, when they see you behind the bar or they see you serving something, they naturally feel slightly sorry for you, and I don't know whether this is part of the deal. People go, oh, look, this poor guy's having to work behind there.
Speaker 1:He must be poor, he must be struggling a bit and actually I think there is a bit of that there was. There's a hotel in buckingham that's now part of the buckingham university. I don't know if you know this. You remember that thing called buckingham beals on the roundabout. It then became a best western. Do you know the one I mean? Out on the roundabout that's?
Speaker 2:now part of Buckingham University campus.
Speaker 1:But there was a guy who worked behind that bar there who, when you looked into his eyes, you felt you shouldn't have ended up doing this. And so you feel slightly and he had sort of no busyness and he'd take ages to pour a pint because he had ages and it was a bit depressing and you thought where's he scuttling back to? There is something about that. You shouldn't have to be doing this.
Speaker 2:No, my third question we've actually talked about is I was going to ask you whether you remembered when we had to play an assumed tip, and that was, of course, in America. When we first went there, we were told what the tip was that we were going to be paying. That was so bizarre. Yeah, can you remember another time when you've had to pay someone?
Speaker 1:said, oh, and with the tip? Yeah, that's again a Californian trip with Tash and the kids in a pizza place. We paid the bill and we didn't tip because we were just rushing. And we were called back in with a manager having a conversation with us saying Chelsea's been your server. You really need to give her 20. That's how it works here and as brits you may not understand this. I'm going to take you through it and I need you to cough up and give her some money. She ran out for us and brought us back into the restaurant to tip yeah, I've never heard about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was extraordinary and she was folding napkins, scowling in a sort of ante room and we sort of looked at her and she sort of looked back at us and was sort of doing that face like oh, and the manager was saying, look, look at Chelsea, she's over there. You haven't tipped her. And I went. What she said let me explain to you, because you Brits just don't get this. And Tash and I go what? How much was the bill? She wanted us to put down another 40 quid. And we were talking and we went we're not doing that when it's chelsea's been off and hardly attentive and these have been pizzas that have already, you know, a pete.
Speaker 1:That pizza was 29 and then well that's what it is here in this part of burbank or wherever we were, and I remember us just leaving ten dollars or something and walking out and her going unbelievable and chelsea coming back in as we look back through the windows, chelsea and the manager talking, and I just thought your service has been desperately average. Why should I tip you?
Speaker 2:god, I mean there's a whole drama, right there, you can imagine Chelsea's face, can't you? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I made sure to face like a smack backside.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so my last question to you is you're running a four site restaurant group. You're the owner of it. You and your fellow director have just got this news. You're not very big, but you're quite ambitious. You may be in your forties and this little restaurant business of yours, what are you going to do? What are you going to talk to your staff? What's your plan to deal?
Speaker 2:with this. It's a really good question. I I think maybe maybe we re-institute something which you you don't see in many restaurants these days you get managers and things like that. I think if you had a permanent head waiter or permanent head assistant head waiter who salaried people who were there most of the time, then you would have an exemplar to use that awful word a fantastic service that would in each place, would carry a higher salary cost but would absolutely show the standard. Then you could have however many waiting staff you need to run the evening, who will be on an hourly rate, but I think you you absolutely make sure that the head waiter and the assistant okay are running the service level so that you, as a restaurant, keep getting customers, because now you're losing your tips yes, yeah, correct, and actually it shows that you've got to.
Speaker 1:Then I up. I'm with you on that. I think I would do nothing with my prices. I would prove that we're good and that we're happy to go along with the law because it's a law and that everyone's going to keep their tips. We're not going to get it, and because we're so good, I would then be able to inflate my prices in due course.
Speaker 2:And actually the other thing I was thinking. There are certain restaurants. Nothing happens before 7, 7.30. And then at 9.30, the chef's gone, I think you and.
Speaker 2:I have, you know, traveled and got to places and turned up at restaurants. We've missed the chef and it's, you know, chicken salad or something. And I think maybe there's something about extending the hours slightly that you're open, because that's, you know, means you get a bit more passing trade. But regardless of solutions, I think this new law over the next two or three years is going to shake out a lot of poor service restaurants and pubs and I don't think there's anything that's going to change that.
Speaker 1:It's a very interesting thing. So, instead of us giving you tips, today it's been more about tips.
Speaker 2:One other thing I was going to mention just very quickly. If you ring a contact center and the person you speak to is amazing, wouldn't it be lovely if you could just say, yeah, I'm going to give you an extra fiver? That's very funny, really. Yeah, we don't do that that, but the guy's incredible. I, I could buy something for 50 quid. I, I could easily spend that on a, on a meal somewhere. Why can't I? Why can't I tip the guy fiver on the phone. Interesting, isn't it? That's funny. There we are. Think about that. Thanks for tuning in. Cheers, bobby. Thanks guys, bye. Thanks guys, bye.