The Reality of Business
Welcome to The Reality of Business, the go-to podcast for insights, stories, and straight-talking advice on all things business.
With over two decades of running Reality Training, Bob & Jeremy have coached thousands, spoken at global conferences, and worked with businesses of all sizes - from start-ups to household names. Their experience, paired with their unique storytelling style, makes this podcast a must-listen for anyone looking to sell smarter, lead better, and think differently about business.
What You’ll Get
🎙️ Expert insights & strategies to transform your approach
😂 Honest, light-hearted discussions - no corporate jargon, just real talk
💡 Lessons from global business leaders & industry disruptors
🌍 Stories from working with world-renowned brands
Launched in June 2021 as Bob & Jeremy’s Conflab, the show has evolved into The Reality of Business, delivering thought-provoking discussions, entertaining banter, and actionable takeaways to help you navigate the challenges of modern business.
Why Listen?
📈 Want to sell more and manage better? We’ve got you.
💬 Looking for fresh perspectives on leadership & sales? You’re in the right place.
🎧 Need an engaging listen while you work, commute, or unwind? We’re here for that too.
🔗 Discover more about Reality Training & our work with global businesses: www.realitytraining.com
🎵 Original music by Charlie Morrell.
If you enjoy the show, leave a rating and review - we’d love to hear your thoughts!
🚀 Listen now & rethink the way you do business.
The Reality of Business
The Digital Nomad Podcast: The Astounding New Truths of Remote Working
Digital nomads: A lifestyle revolution or a passing trend?
Can remote work truly free us from the traditional office, blending adventure with productivity? Or is it an overhyped fad destined to fade away?
Join us as we explore the intriguing world of digital nomads – exploring the rise of this global phenomenon and the unexpected challenges it brings.
Through engaging anecdotes and a fictional exchange between a CEO and a director debating the push for more in-office days, we reveal the realities of working remotely abroad. Discover how millions are embracing this liberating lifestyle, and how it compares to the entire working population of the UK.
We uncover the staggering growth of digital nomad communities, the origins of the term, and the appeal of new visas offered by countries like Portugal and Spain. Whether you’re a millennial seeking adventure or a seasoned traveller chasing freedom, we look at how technology is reshaping work in a globalised world.
But it’s not all glamour. We examine the pros and cons of life on the move – balancing exploration with safety concerns, time zone headaches, and the realities of adapting to local cultures. What does this shift mean for businesses and economies? And how can companies harness this trend to create dynamic workforces?
Whether you’re considering a digital nomad lifestyle or just curious about this cultural shift, this episode offers a thought-provoking look into how remote work can blossom into a truly enriching existence. Tune in for insights, inspiration, and practical advice!
For more info, free resources, useful content & our blog posts, please visit realitytraining.com.
Reality Training - Selling Certainty
Luke, can you hear me okay?
Speaker 2:Yes, hello, sebastian. I must say it's very nice to hear from the CEO once in a while. How are you?
Speaker 1:Well, yes, sorry if it has been a while. Things have been quite busy and well, your marketing is marvellous, the stuff you're producing, the team, all working well. I wanted to talk to you personally. I only need a few minutes, just a bit of a change.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We've got a couple of weeks left of the month, and then what we're suggesting is from the first of next month. Um, especially you as a director. Uh, all of us. We're going to be in four days a week. Now I don't mind if you have the friday at home or the monday, but I'm sure that's good with you. Four days a week, okay? Oh, I see you?
Speaker 2:you mean in the, in the office in london yes, back in.
Speaker 1:Yes, I know it's been a while.
Speaker 2:I know it's been well, it's funny, you should say that, um, I'm not sure that's going to work because, um, as of next week, um, I'm booked to work, well, for the next three months, anyway, in portugal. What so? Yeah, they've given me one of their digital nomad visas, because I've been working so effectively, uh, from home, that I just thought, well, I may as well go and spend a few months in the sun working there. And, yeah, I've got a little place sorted and I'm going out there.
Speaker 1:How is this going to work? Because you know the directive we're doing is we've got to be in four days a week.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't know where that's come from and, again, this is the first I've heard of it. But you've you know. As you know, I do good work. I can coordinate the marketing and have the meetings from just about anywhere.
Speaker 1:Let me stop you there. I'm going to have to talk to Maureen in HR. I'm going to have to get more gend up.
Speaker 2:Well, have a chat with Maureen, and I mean you might be aware that there's a number of us digital nomads on the books already, so there might be something to consider I will come back to you luke.
Speaker 1:Um, okay, I'll come back to you luke, okay. Hi Bobby, how are you doing? Hello?
Speaker 2:there, Jeremy, I'm very well indeed. How are you sir?
Speaker 1:Yeah, fine, I'm intrigued at this. As you can imagine, I'm playing a little sketch to begin and I'm thinking, gosh, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:It is and, for those who may not yet be up on what we're actually talking about, it's really straightforward. Talking about it's really straightforward. We're going to be talking about hybrid working and the current trends when it comes to how we work as organizations. We're then going to move into the very interesting world of digital nomads and I've got a little quiz for you, jeremy, on the statistics of digital nomads across the world and then we're going to think about how that actually works in practice, and I've done a lot of research into this and it's absolutely amazing what's currently taking place, and I think you're going to find it really interesting. So, yes, that's what we're on about.
Speaker 1:So let's go back to my little favorite thing to often kick things off. I'm 11 years old, uncle Bobby, what's this thing that you were talking to Aunty Susie about? About digital nomads, what's all that?
Speaker 2:Well, little Jeremy, a digital nomad is very simply somebody who can do all of their work from just about any location on earth, as long as they have a really good Wi-Fi connection. So, as an 11 year old, you know that that's the first thing you ask. Never you enter any building it is what's the. Wi-fi code well. I could be anywhere on earth with a good Wi-Fi code and I could do my job eight hours a day, and that means that I can travel around, living in different places, experiencing different cultures and working effectively.
Speaker 1:Is that because mum says you come up with ideas but other people do all the work?
Speaker 2:Maybe that may be the case, and I may as well have them in a sunny climate as opposed to in the horrendous, because you always on just your laptop.
Speaker 1:I don't see you sort of making things or doing things like like my dad you know he goes into a building and he makes all this stuff was.
Speaker 2:He's a tool maker, isn't he? Yeah?
Speaker 1:well, quite senior in a good company that make really good hammers, but yeah, yeah, well, that's great, and you know, that's a really important thing.
Speaker 2:my company is a digital marketing company, and that's what we do. We get most of our inquiries through the internet, and so that means we can work anywhere in order to make that shop window look fantastic. The other side of that is let's think about the weather. So we're recording this today, and it has just stopped raining here. It's been raining all morning, solidly, and we've had a pretty wet year. Actually, over through the year, the summer was a bit of a washout and it hasn't been terrific. When I was researching this, I just thought, okay, I've got all the stats here, which we'll come on to in a bit. How could I spend the majority of the winter living somewhere a bit warmer, a bit sunnier, a bit cheaper, actually, in most cases. What would that mean? And it is surprisingly appealing as you go through that.
Speaker 1:Shall I not come straight in with? Well, I haven't done much research, bob, but I know that since Brexit, the facts are simple, because my mate lives in Italy, and that's because he's an Italian citizen, but his neighbor, Herman, who married an English woman, they're only there every now and again and they keep going home. I think it's 90 days, isn't it Correct? I don't understand you're going to achieve this.
Speaker 2:Let's come on to that in a bit, because that element of it is a stat. But it's not the most important thing, because I found out so much about this lifestyle that that element of the uh restrictions that we face as brits is slowly diminishing through various policies is there also some technicality about the word living as in? Home ownership.
Speaker 1:We get into some detail, do we?
Speaker 2:Oh yes, oh yes.
Speaker 2:I mean okay there's a lot more to it than that.
Speaker 2:Before we get into the actual digital nomad stats, let's just think a little bit about the current trends Because, as we all know, the coronavirus pandemic forced many, many, many people to start working from home and still many haven't relocated back to the office.
Speaker 2:Many are still working from home or spending the majority of their time working from home, and this skit we did at the beginning just focuses on this idea that I think directors, many directors around the world, are going. Hmm, I think we'd quite like our people back in our offices again now, and they're now making those requests, but in many cases those requests are being turned down because and hard to enforce, well, almost impossible to enforce. And I think, once you've let the genie out of the bottle, as it were, that actually remote working is fine, then to actually reimpose that focus on an individual and a company is very, very hard to do. Corporations, when they lease a large building like a head office in central London or central New York or Tokyo or Hong Kong, wherever they have these large buildings, what do you think is the term, the average term, of a lease that they will take on one of those buildings?
Speaker 1:10 years, 40. What.
Speaker 2:Yep. So they, in cases, are buying 40-year leases for large, beautiful buildings and thinking, well, hang on a sec, we need to use this building. We've got cleaners, maintenance, security people, it, all the other bits and pieces that go to make this thing usable.
Speaker 1:Are you saying for a large organisation, the standard terms for a large building that might have 500 people in or whatever the standard terms today, 2024,? Are people want you to sign up for 40 years?
Speaker 2:It can be that it can be up to 70, by the way, oh my gosh. So if you're a very large organisation that you assume is going to be around for another 100 years, then actually you're thinking well, I'm buying cheap for 50 years time. I mean, that's another way of thinking about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you're still paying a lease. You're entering into a contract, but you're just paying yearly amounts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:There'll be break clauses and review points and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, absolutely right, and they may even go up with inflation. And they may even go up with inflation. I mean, it may be something that you literally can't get out of. So that's one of the key reasons. But not many are in that. Only the biggest are in that game. But that is a main reason why you think well, hang on a minute, we've got to get people coming in to use this space because we're paying so much for it.
Speaker 2:However, I read a really interesting article about a chap who said look, these organizations are paying for these concrete boxes where I'm sat in a cubicle being instant messaged by someone two cubicles away rather than come and speak to me, and I'm creating friendships that don't really go anywhere because they only exist within the office and there's no real value. And it's costing me money to go in every day and buy coffee and lunch and all that sort of thing, whereas actually I'm realizing that I'm actually twice as effective working from home. I'm really good at doing that. I can have as many meetings as I like. It's saving the company money in terms of travel and all that sort of thing. So actually, that sort of facade, the facade of presenteeism, which you and I have talked about a lot on this podcast is currently blown and for people who are good at what they do, then they can work effectively from anywhere.
Speaker 1:I mean this could spread into a debate that sort of goes off tangent. But the effectiveness and production and output is one thing and output is one thing. It's also just a change to our society in some ways, in that we would go to work, have work-based friendships, we might have social time with work. It was part of our week. That's changed and I suppose output is one measure, but the others are well-being. Some people are not well-placed to work at home in isolation at all.
Speaker 1:And so I think it is a wide debate. But going back to our original sketch, I think am I right in saying that for your research into this you're thinking of self-sufficient people who can dip in and out, but chaining them to a desk is sort of almost an extinct idealism, I suppose well, I mean, that's a very good, that's a great, that's a great title for a book there jeremy extinct idealism, that's a brilliant title for a book.
Speaker 2:it's not bad, is it? And no, and I think if any senior people are listening to this podcast, thinking, hmm, maybe we should consider digital nomads, I think they need to get rid of their idealism as quickly as possible, because it is this idea of going into a big building all the time is becoming extinct slowly but surely. And even if there is a move to where managers are thinking, oh my God, I can't keep an eye on my employees, I need them back in, and they're forcing people to come back into the offices. Now, I'm afraid, when we look at some of the stats here, we are moving further and further away from that as a situation I mean just based on bearings of little bits of reading and we'll come into your stats.
Speaker 1:I know that one trend has shifted with large organizations. They used to often have fail-safe buildings. They'd have a second building should there be a fire, should there be a problem. That's gone, so they're no longer keeping another space that they dip in and out of. So you've got some data that shows a trend. Have you that? The hordes, Okay. So how are we going to go into this? Am I going to play a guessing game? First of all.
Speaker 2:Let me give you one big stat which sort of underpins everything. There's one article I read which says that, at this current time, something like 20% of central city offices are lying empty. Okay, anywhere on earth, around 20%, if you think about that, 20% of London, 20% of New York, 20% of Los Angeles, you know, some of them will be less, some of them will be more, but overall 20%, and there's no movement to occupy those offices currently. Okay, there's no movement into those. Wow, now that creates this change Because, of course, we can work from home.
Speaker 2:We have good internet connections. Now we have software, such as exactly like the software we're using, which makes all that possible. We then now move from the working from home question mark to well, if I can work from home, I can work anywhere. And so this gives rise to your friends and mine, the digital nomads, and so this gives rise to your friends and mine, the digital nomads. A digital nomad we described that to an 11-year-old a few minutes ago. Let's now look at some really startling statistics on this and see where it takes us. So, jeremy, how many digital nomads do you think there are worldwide? How many digital nomads do you think there are worldwide? How many digital nomads do you think there are worldwide?
Speaker 1:And by that term they're not in their own countries, where they're born, they've moved somewhere else. These are people who, yeah, people who define themselves as digital nomads.
Speaker 2:Moving about, yeah, moving around. What do you think?
Speaker 1:Gosh. Okay, Give me 10 seconds on this. I'm going to take the amount of countries percentage. Me 10 seconds on this. So I'm going to take the amount of countries percentage I think there are 700 000.
Speaker 2:Okay, so that's and that's you thinking about this and then thinking a bit more than you probably originally first thought, and adding a bit okay we're currently between 35 and 40 million people no come on. Yes, and I knew that would startle you, because you think this is a tiny, tiny number of people doing this.
Speaker 1:The thing that's interesting is they're not like our friend Simon, who's moved countries. They are moving. They are following the drought season. They're moving somewhere else. You know, absolutely, gosh.
Speaker 2:Give that number again, else you know Absolutely, gosh, give that number again Between 35 and 40 million.
Speaker 1:And that's validated. I don't know how they've got that. They must have.
Speaker 2:I've got lots of articles on the BBC and on various other forums and various other sites that corroborate that. So we're looking at.
Speaker 2:That's a trend that is not going anywhere. That's only ever going to increase. Okay, that's a trend that is not going anywhere. That's only ever going to increase. Okay, that's the first thing. We've effectively got most of the working population of this country. In effect, we've got 68 million or so in this in the uk, so that the working population of this country would be like everybody in the uk working from going somewhere else. That's, that's where it is. That's a good way of thinking about it. I've got here some also stats on what percentage do you think are millennials. So which do you think?
Speaker 1:Naturally, my default was older. And then a part of me goes hold on. They haven't got children yet, but they'd have to have done well.
Speaker 2:That's a growing sector is digital nomads who have children.
Speaker 1:It's small but it's growing. My first thinking is I'm post my children. They've gone off. They've either left home or I'm able to maintain a home in the uk and they come and go or whatever.
Speaker 2:Okay, so that's another thing to debunk yourself off right. Lots of these people do not maintain a home in the place they're coming. Wow, because they've decided to be a digital nomad. Just go for it, so they'll get another place when they come back in the end okay, so.
Speaker 1:so I'm going to go older still. So what was the question? So what percentage are millennials, are millennials? So I'm going to go out of the 100% of all millennials, I'm going to say they make up only 20%, 37% are millennials.
Speaker 2:And what do you think percentage is between male and female?
Speaker 1:Oh, that's good. Okay, I'm going to say that women are more. I'm going to say women are less moving than men.
Speaker 2:Yes, you're right, it's 62% male, 38% women. What percentage do you think are American? And it is the highest percentage of all digital nomads.
Speaker 1:And that makes sense because my son, wherever he goes, he says there's Americans everywhere. He goes to Rome in a quiet area and there's six of them around the corner. Yeah, so North Americans, canadians, people from the US, they are a staggering 40% of all of it 46,.
Speaker 2:Very good, yeah, okay. So nearly 50% are Americans. Now, of course course, you imagine a digital nomad to be sitting on a computer somewhere working. What percentage do you think work full time as a digital nomad in another country? So what does that what you mean? Work full time. Ie, they're not part-time or contracting for different companies. They are literally sitting working. Oh, I see full-time for an organization. Three quarters of them, 75. Nearly, it's 62% full-time. I mean, I'll give you a couple of these. There's no point guessing Of those who work full-time, if they work 40 hours a week, 70% will do that work.
Speaker 2:So, the fact they're sitting in Portugal doesn't mean they're working any less than they would do. So the percentage of digital nomads who are satisfied with their income is 82 percent yeah, I think that follows because yeah, you've got to have enough income to be able to support the lifestyle, so you wouldn't do this unless you did have that so I don't know if you've got the research on this.
Speaker 1:I wonder how many of them leave a place where the place they move to the cost of living is less than where they came from.
Speaker 2:The vast majority, and we will come on to that in a moment because I've got some stats on that. But there's a few more things here. What year do you think the term digital nomad was coined?
Speaker 1:That will be the mid-90s, when internet started to get better, so it was actually 1997.
Speaker 2:Two chaps, sugio Makimoto and David Manners, wrote a book called the Digital Nomad, predicting exactly what has happened, and that's been doing the rounds ever since Now. Here's a really interesting question that's been doing the rounds ever since now. Here's a really interesting question do all digital nomads use digital nomad visas?
Speaker 1:gosh, the answer is going to be a very solid no and there'll be loopholes. There'll be relationship loopholes parental passport changes. I remember now my mother's irish. There'll be all sorts going on there, won't there?
Speaker 2:so interestingly, what I found out is that, whilst lots of over 50 countries now offer you a digital nomad visa, the vast I would say nearly a half of all digital nomads are not staying long enough in each country in order to need one, because they literally wanted to go around to different places. Ah, I was taking the question as you mean like moving from digital nomad to settling in another. Portugal and Spain and Italy and many other countries want to attract people to live there for longer, so they're offering incentives for you to get one of those visas.
Speaker 1:So what you're saying is some of them. If they were coming from Britain and they had to play the visa rules they would be returning.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, not necessarily returning to britain, of course they. They might do six weeks in spain. They might then fly to thailand for two months I see they might fly to australia for three months because there are different rules in different countries but you make the clear point.
Speaker 1:The technicality I understand is is it's europe? You can't remain in europe for more than 90 days.
Speaker 2:True, that's, that's true, that's true, unless you have a digital nomad easily which will allow you to live, in some cases for up to three or five years, in a European country which actually gets around that current restriction. So that's why I think it's becoming Can you then apply for another one?
Speaker 2:Haven't read into that. I'm assuming you can, but I think there will be limits to how long you can do it. For it's interesting, in germany they have a different system, called a freelancer visa, which there are very strict rules hi, I'm a freelancer, are you?
Speaker 2:I'm just freelancing my way around berlin and and you, once you've gone through the strict rules to get one of those. You then have a year and then you can extend it for up to three years. But I think that's fairly strict and they don't expect you to hang around long after that.
Speaker 2:And then the last stat I've got just on the top 10 was that we talked about those people that are full-time workers 66% have traditional jobs, two thirds so I work for this company, I'm on a salary and that's it. And then a third are contractors, self-employed or you know their own business. So that's the stat. Now, I knew that some of those stats would blow your mind, because I knew that you thought this was a very, very niche thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, rather than mainstream. I did feel that it wasn't fully accessible to younger millennials, but millennials are getting older and it's interesting Did you say it was, what percentage of millennials? The vast majority wouldn't 37%. Yeah, so nearly sort of 60% are older.
Speaker 2:And those older people? No, they're not, oh, they're not that much. Older Generation Z 21%. Right, wow, baby boomers, they're not oh they're not that much older Generation Z 21%.
Speaker 1:Right, wow Baby boomers 15%.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the biggest sector is 45, 45 year olds, or something, is it? Well, no, your typical digital nomad is a white male from America who's 35. Right, he is abroad for a minimum of seven months a year. He spends a lot of his time in a place called Port Mau in Portugal, which apparently is very popular. He is either a developer of some kind or the founder of a startup of some kind. That's very, very common, and the average salary is $122,000, about £90,000. That's a typical digital nomad.
Speaker 1:So I tell you, I was in oxford yesterday with tash and we walked past a brand new pastel donata shop. Okay, well, you say we went gosh. Do you remember we had those when we were in lisbon and we would have two each and coffee and tea and we'd give the guy five euros, 20 yeah how much is a single pastel donato, which is tiny they're the smallest ones I've ever seen in this shop in oxford well, if it's anything like the ones in lewis, it's going to be three or four quid apart.
Speaker 2:It's two pounds 85 god they're having a laugh, aren't they?
Speaker 1:and and we just looked at them, went wow, so that's. Another point is if the cost of living is less always my digital nomad. I'm building in rental income. I mean not rental income. I'm paying rent because I'm probably not allowed to buy. You can't buy under the visa, can you?
Speaker 2:um, I don't think you can buy, although I've seen nothing to say that you can't do that well, if you did, you've got to sell it and go within five, haven't you?
Speaker 1:no, no no you.
Speaker 2:You could buy the property and keep it, but you couldn't necessarily live there well, that's the point.
Speaker 1:Definitely buy's the point. You could definitely buy it. There's not the added advantage of, hey, I've now bought it. No, when my visa's up, I'm out, yeah.
Speaker 2:But then actually if you look at some of these places, some of the property is so low. If you're that much of a kind of switched on digital nomad, you could buy the place, have a year there hanging on, so it's. It's actually quite a sort of uh thing for somebody who's a bit entrepreneurial. You.
Speaker 1:You could actually do quite well in that, in that world. It's funny you say that. I was talking about the old adage of taking a horse across the state or or a boat that you take across somewhere. There's various tales that say you should never lease. You should buy your boat to do your journey and sell the boat to someone else at the end. That's more economic than leasing. So maybe there is something. I'm going to be in Portugal for five years or base myself there. I will buy a little thing and I might just sell it before I get out.
Speaker 3:Thank you for joining us on the Reality of Business. At Reality Training, we specialize in creating sales and management programs that drive real results. For over 20 years, we've helped major brands sell more, retain customers and lead their teams effectively. Curious about how we can help you, visit realitytrainingcom today.
Speaker 2:So now let's move into some of the actual practicalities of this yeah, I'd like.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's my question, I'm listening to this, I'm going here, I am. I mean, we've got listeners from different countries. But maybe, if you just say, ostensibly, how does somebody do this? Someone's sitting listening to this and it's raining and they want some warmer climes. They might be in a position, whether they're millennial or they're older grown-up children.
Speaker 2:I mean you said people taking small children is on the increase, but it's probably the smallest sector, I would have thought still well, so you'll be won't be surprised to hear, with 40 million people doing this worldwide. Yeah, yeah, there are now companies set up to help people do this yeah so you can actually go and speak to a company. They'll say where do you want to go? I want to go to italy. Okay, fine, whereabouts in italy? Well, I'm not sure really well, um, tell me your situation. Married with two small children, right?
Speaker 2:well, the best place for kindergarten situation, yeah, and the three situations is milan or turin or wherever, and this is where you're going to go and this is how you're going to set it up, and we'll do it all for you. So that exists already. Not just that, though. There's a whole secondary industry springing up of co-working spaces. Yeah, yeah, and this exists all over the place. I mean, I'm in lewis. There's one up the road here and it says outside, uh, it's called networks, and so.
Speaker 1:So if I don't go to an agency, what do I do? I go online and look at the country and I. Google nomadic visa in Italy, and there's application forms. Absolutely, do I need permission from my government in the UK. No, you just fill it in.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, the appeal to the foreign country is that you are earning money from an outside company. Yeah, okay, so that's important. You're choosing to live and work in their country and spend your salary in that country, which they very much would like you to do, and so as long as you can prove that you're not going to be a drain on the resources of that place that you decided to go, then they're perfectly happy for you to live there for a limited amount of time. That's the deal. Now, not only is that the deal and I haven't got time to go through all the different scenarios that exist, because they're changing all the time but each country that offers a digital nomad visa will have various criteria. You have to prove you earn a certain amount of money. If you're a business owner, you have to show accounts and you're not just trying to subvert the visa rules by doing this. So you have to prove that you can sustain yourself.
Speaker 2:But the fact is, we know that the average digital nomads is in about 90,000 pounds a year, and you could have a nice lifestyle in England or the United States or wherever on that sort of money. But actually, if you go to somewhere like Spain or Italy or Greece or Thailand or a Caribbean island or Sri Lanka or Hawaii or you know. There's so many places you can do this. You can actually have a fantastic lifestyle on that sort of money in those locations, be one of the richest people in that area, and I've got a great example of this. There's an area in Spain, to the east of Portugal, and it's one of the poorest areas in Spain actually, but lovely part of the world. The summers will be long and hot and they will give you, as a digital nomad, 15,000 euros as a sweetener for you to move to that area for two years.
Speaker 2:Two years, that's how much they want you to do it, they really want you there. They do. There are certain places in Italy where they'll give you 30,000 euros to do it, because they want you to move into that area and spend your money, and that's the appeal, I think, for those places. Now, that's if you want to stay somewhere for a couple of years. As I say, I think there are lots of digital nomads who just make a plan for a couple of years.
Speaker 1:Yeah right.
Speaker 2:I'm going to move around. I can have six weeks here, three months here, move around to somewhere I like, and I get a budget for all of that, all of the accommodation costs, and I can do that because I can literally work anywhere. Now there is some disadvantages. If you're working for a United States organization and you're somewhere which is seven or eight hours ahead or seven or eight hours behind where your main office is, you are going to need to be doing late nights or early morning meetings and you're just going to have to accept that. That that's part of the deal and I think that's something that people have to come to terms with.
Speaker 2:But I think, other than that, it's for your company to think okay, this person's working there, I trust them to do their work and do what they have to do, and I need to think about that when trying to organize things with them. And once you have got your head around that to organize things with them and once you have got your head around that, I think it's remarkably easy. The appeal is amazing the idea of being somewhere warm where you do your day's work and in the evening you go out and it's 23 degrees and there's a bar on a beach. I can't see that there's much wrong with that, really, as an appealing location, and you're going to be paying two to three euros for a beer, as opposed to six or seven pounds in the UK. So there is that thing about it it is going to cost you less to live in these locations, which is appealing.
Speaker 1:This sort of digital bit could be a topical word. You know. I'm thinking of a joke by Mac in the Telegraph or something, or a well-known cartoonist of a couple of people looking at a cross, at an Englishman in a cafe, and someone says is he a digital nomad? He hasn't had his laptop since he's arrived. He's a notebook nomad, you know it's. I'm just sort of that kind of image. You don't have to be using the laptop, no, but everybody does, absolutely because they're.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's part of the tool for communication and software it is and the other thing I go to is, let's just say, a family wanted to go to portugal for two years, put their kids in the schools there and they were able to get a job there.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's different.
Speaker 1:I know, I'm just spelling out the difference. They're then having the Portuguese state employ them, engage them healthcare, da-da-da-da-da. So, there's the idea that's a slightly more higher cost to the nation.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Your singular thing that you're pointing out is that if the income comes from another country into the bank account, into Portugal, that's external funds with no drawing of the existing company. Exactly, that's interesting, but if that person was highly productive and worked for the company and was great to have in the country, that takes us back to everyone being able to do this. But we're saying this is a distinction.
Speaker 2:It's currently not this is a way of getting into europe and beyond it is that, but I also think it's more than that. I think it is a huge lifestyle choice that many people have got the right mindset to do because they're so used to working remotely now that it doesn't matter where.
Speaker 2:Extension for an adventurous mind. You just think well, I could literally do this anywhere. I'm going to do that. Now there is a backlash, as you won't be surprised to hear. So certain locations like Barcelona and various others are getting a bit sick of digital nomads because their arrival in these places is driving up the prices for locals. So that is a downside where, oh, lots of people with high incomes coming in who can afford to pay three or four or five euros for a beer right, so the local bar whacks the prices up absolutely, and so that's one of the downsides here.
Speaker 2:However, I would say that what's happening is I did a search and I thought I'd give you a list of all the countries where you can do this. There is too many.
Speaker 1:There are too many. All over the world. There's some distinctions, but you're saying so. Can you do this in France? Oh, yes, so France.
Speaker 2:Most of the European countries you can, except Germany, as I said. What about the Nordics and the Scandis? I'm sure you can, but I haven't looked into the details there. There are some where you can't because various reasons. But what's happening, I think, is that lots of places are going. Hang on a minute. Hang on a minute. So there's a place called anguilla, which is a caribbean island. I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, yeah, the cost of that digital visa is quite a few thousand dollars so it's a bit ah, you pay for the visa, so you pay for the visa, so what does that cost you? To buy the visa in spain or whatever?
Speaker 2:well, sometimes it's, you know, hundreds, 200 euros. I mean, you know it depends on what it is and where it is, but they're changing all the time those fees because it's becoming more popular. There's a few important things to just to ponder on this. There are two main markets now for digital nomads. The first is what we discussed, so the individual or the couple and, in tiny percentage cases, a family, going to a country, working for a few months or a year and moving on. So that's the first type, of which there are many, many people doing.
Speaker 2:But going back to what we discussed at the beginning, if you are no longer paying for a massive office or a much smaller, smaller head office and you don't need all that office space, that gives you some funds. And so the secondary market for digital nomads is, if I have 40 people in my team working across the globe in various locations, I'm going to want to bring them together a few times a year. So that is what's called the off-site marketplace, and what that means is that you'll say, right, we're going to choose the Digital Nomad location in Portugal. Let's say we're going to book that location. That location is a beautiful property that has amazing facilities. They have yoga classes and exercise classes in the evening. They have beautiful rooms, a swimming pool on the roof, a lovely bar in the evening, and we're all going to book that and spend two or three weeks working together on our projects, spending time together.
Speaker 2:The company pays for the accommodation and the flights. Then we go back to our hybrid, varied, nomadic locations and work and then we'll come back together in a few months time somewhere else. Now that's a huge marketplace because people think, yeah, I'd like to do that and actually the company is going to pay. So that's really good. And I found a great example a beautiful place in Portugal, in Porto. Funnily enough, they have a rooftop pool, they have different events and this is this whole thing I was talking about, the kind of co-working scenario. So if you've got a site or a number of sites around the city that you own and you've got individuals running their own business, people working for companies or companies themselves and teams coming in, you're mixing with varied types of of worker and so they will run events and food-based sessions and training sessions and networking sessions and go off on a trip and see but they're expecting you to be there for a week or something, or two weeks or whatever it might be.
Speaker 2:The average is about two weeks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because those are people who are then coming back to their countries to continue whatever it is they have there.
Speaker 2:Or to go to wherever they're actually working from.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because they've been pulled in.
Speaker 2:And this place is beautiful with lovely rooms. The average cost for a room per night en suite room is between $85 and $115 a night for a very nice room in this lovely location with the pool and all the other bits and pieces. Now, that is a huge marketplace. So I think there's something very appealing also about saying well, no, we're not paying for our offices anymore, so why don't we go and have a strategy session in Italy for a few weeks?
Speaker 1:So here's a question Is anybody want to come and be a digital nomad in the UK?
Speaker 2:Well, isn't that interesting. There's no statistic on that. Do we offer it to people? I haven't seen it.
Speaker 1:I don't think that we do so. You've looked from here going out. I understand that. I'm wondering if somebody's in New York and saying I want to go and work in London, England, for a bit.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, the most popular country on earth is the USA to do it in, so to go and do it there. But then you've also got Spain as the second. I think Spain has a lot going for it because you've got amazing cities like Madrid, barcelona, seville, all those places down in the sun, and you've got that good climate and Burgos.
Speaker 1:more people could discover your Burgos.
Speaker 2:Well, they could, but I think it's very rainy in winter. It's a bit like Ireland and Burgos, so I think you'd probably go there for the spring period, it'd be lovely you might, you might.
Speaker 2:That's quite appealing. So I think that's the interesting stat, that it's not just moving around it. It's not just moving around. It's also this idea that as a company, we could do what we're doing anywhere if people can have, if people can work anywhere, then we can work anywhere. Why do we have to have a meeting in london or new york, wherever our offices are? Why don't we go abroad somewhere?
Speaker 1:I think what's very interesting is a lot of people's work, sort of the main bit of the work isn't necessarily physical, is it? No? That, no, that's what's interesting. But it is also quite selective, because a key worker can't do this. I'm a nurse, I'm going to go and be a nurse, no, no, because you work at this hospital.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, in our sketch the 11-year-old talking to you is his uncle. His father went to a factory and helped make hammers. So he can't do it. It's only open to a sort of select type job description.
Speaker 2:And I know you said marketing company, but one does seem to think of the creative industries software developers, coders yeah, yes, absolutely, you know, because, if I don't, I've got some stats on that, because I can see that that's a question, because you think, well, surely only certain types of business can do this.
Speaker 1:Well, I think it's job function. It's more the function of any business can do it because there'll be people within it, but some might have an expertise in a particular role that requires their physical presence in a different environment.
Speaker 2:Well, let's be clear. So 79% of digital nomads rely on technology yeah, for their work. So that's a fact. You've got to rely on technology in order for it to work, anyway. I think that's that's the thing. However, if you think about the stat, in 1997, the idea of digital nomads was just an idea. Nobody was doing it. Now we've got nearly 40 million people doing it. Yes, it's only ever going to grow, and so what's going to happen is the idea is that what you can do remotely will grow and grow as well. So the most common jobs are things like developers of various types, systems administrators, web developers that's a massive chunk software developers, people who work in sass, and virtual reality and all that sort of thing, but then you also get areas like human resources.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know why do you need to do that from anywhere?
Speaker 2:Why do you need to be in an office? Psychologists of course you can do that face to face anywhere. Journalists yeah, now it's got here. Medical professionals it's up 33%. A few years ago, moving abroad to do, yeah, that work, you could work abroad support jobs. Creatives up 21 percent, yeah. Bloggers, coaches just a bit like psychologists.
Speaker 2:There you go yeah, so, yeah, so there's definite growth in in those areas, but again, it's taking time for those to catch up with the big it jobs that are currently taking place. So there are some places that they said you wouldn't want to go. So they said you wouldn't want necessarily to go to Japan, because I think the cost of living there is even more astronomical than London and places like Kuwait where it must be unbearably hot, and things like that. Now, the top five cities that male digital nomads like the most are number five Cape Town, south Africa. Really. Number four Seoul, south Korea.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:Number three Madrid in Spain. Number two Porto in Portugal. That's very popular for digital nomads, and the number one in 2024 is Budapest in Hungary. Yeah, great place, so that must be very low cost to live there. I would imagine so very appealing. The top five cities that nomadic women like the most Vienna, berlin, munich, chiang Mai. In Thailand and you won't believe this Medellin in Colombia, really yes, what do they like about Medellin? I couldn't possibly say. Maybe they've got a secondary job as a drugs mule. I mean, who knows?
Speaker 1:To our Colombian listeners not everyone from Colombia.
Speaker 2:No, no, but these are nomads going there.
Speaker 1:It's funny. I started doing I mean, I do yoga and I've tried a bit of Pilates. And the woman who I found online says I looked at her website, I'm originally, she's from Europe. Now she says but now I'm I base and I run my work from Thailand, so she is teaching and filming and recording and uploading from Thailand. She can live anywhere to teach Pilates. You know, yeah, that's fascinating, isn't it? So what about relating this to you? If? Do you have a nomadic vision for you?
Speaker 2:oh, I really do. I mean, I really do. I think this is very appealing for somebody like me who I've reached a certain age.
Speaker 1:My boys have reached the point where they are, you know, becoming more independent, and so the necessity for me to be in the uk is lower the other fact is that you and I both were crestfallen with the Brexit result, of course, but then it's a way of you accessing Europe, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Oh, very, very much so, and I think that's a great point. However, there are pros and cons, so the pros are fairly obvious. So the ability to travel when and where you want, you have a great work-life balance, you experience new cultures and you meet new people. I mean, that is the massive appeal of being a digital nomad, and 78% feel optimistic about the future of their careers by taking this as their job. So that's, I think there's no question that for the individual, it's incredibly positive.
Speaker 2:There are some disadvantages and challenges. The challenges are certain countries. You might feel less personally safe. You're going to places which are less well-developed. Being away from family and friends that would be your biggest thing. You would struggle with that hugely. I think Working across time zones is a challenge. We've talked about that. You're going to have to be up at certain times. Loneliness 26% report a level of loneliness because you might be in a co-working place full of people who are not like you at all and that might be slightly difficult. Travel logistics can be a pain, and also managing work and travel together could be difficult too. So those are some of the the clear challenges. However, the future is absolutely immense. The predictions on growth are just exponential. And so if you think we're approaching 40 million now, in 2024, in another six years' time it's going to be we're getting up towards 100 million, and that's massive. And that's 100 million people on good money traveling the world to work rather than staying in a single place, and that's a huge shift.
Speaker 1:I'm wondering if at one point they will. Then well, with some way off a tipping point, whether they say we don't want this money going out the country.
Speaker 2:It's interesting, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Imagine you're a small country and you suddenly suffer a brain drain. But it isn't a real brain drain because the company's head office is technically based in that country where you live. But you're now working in another country and the salary is going out.
Speaker 2:Well, no, there is a gray area around where you pay your tax. So if you're still being paid your salary in the UK, if you pay tax at source, that continues and you're just spending it elsewhere. So the country doesn't get that bit of the money.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, there we are, but still if you're spending all your earnings in another country and a lot of people were doing it from that country- yeah then the gdp of the nation would go down because the and the amount of money being spent. You know, that's interesting, really intriguing some of those.
Speaker 2:It is I did some research into rents in certain countries and you know the rents in the UK are off the charts at the moment, very, very high. You go to somewhere like Spain residential not necessarily with a sea view and a appealing holiday apartment block, but a residential apartment in Spain, Italy, Greece, Turkey, somewhere that's going to be warmer here definitely than the UK for a few months. You're looking at a few hundred euros per month, I believe it, sometimes as low as 350, 300 euros a month, or you could probably get a one bed probably a one bed would be even less, almost certainly.
Speaker 2:And then it becomes very, very affordable because again, your cost of living plummets and you also get the benefit of the climate. So I think, looking at this, it is right now very appealing. I think there will be not only challenges in terms of the cultural impact on locals, but also certain countries will think well, hang on a minute, we need to think about this because we're now less attractive for investment. It's a great indicator, isn't it? How many digital home ads do you have? Hardly any.
Speaker 2:Well, maybe we should go where they're going. So that's interesting. I think it also opens up this idea of using the fact that there are low-cost flights, low-rent apartments All these things become available. Why don't companies take advantage of these things in order to have a more interesting working life, which I think is appealing? And in fact, I remember being offered an off-site as a target. If we beat a target for an American company I was working for, we would then get taken to barcelona for an offsite. We had to hit the target to do it. Yeah, now they would do it as a matter of course every three months. I would imagine they just go well, let's all go.
Speaker 1:Let's all just don't go and do it because the cost is so much lower yeah, now it's interesting I can see other side businesses, as you say, growing up, you know you've got airbnb, you could have nomad airbnb and just you know a house that as you walk in it's set up for it with a standing desk and a brilliant this, and that you could kind of create the space, couldn't you?
Speaker 2:oh, it would be fantastic. But also I think if you are single, yeah, then it is appealing because you are going to meet lots of new people, and if you can work effectively from anywhere, then actually why wouldn't you? Why would you sit somewhere where the weather's perpetually miserable, freezing?
Speaker 1:cold. I mean you've always struggled with our weather.
Speaker 2:I have I have, if you think about it, december, january, february, to do that in the sun somewhere. I can't see any issue with that. I think it would be delightful to be 15 degrees warmer on average, to be 15 degrees warmer on average.
Speaker 1:I think that would be pretty good. Come and be a digital nomad in the UK and enjoy warm fires in the pub and mulled wine. I give it to me as a marketing challenge. I'll sell it back the other way.
Speaker 2:I think that's hilarious. I think that would be a really, really good deal A free welly boot loan in every house. We've got your welly boots lined up for you.
Speaker 1:We'll have a wax jacket sorted. There'll be the waterproofs. We've got it fully worked out for you People who live in such hot countries, you're desperate to come and have cooler weather.
Speaker 2:Then the Spanish guys would do another ad showing some people running through the rain in London going where could we have gone for this? Let's go to Spain. I think it just has that They've always got the sun Anyway. I think it just has that They've always got the sum Anyway. That's an interesting topic.
Speaker 1:It's good fun.
Speaker 2:I think it's one we'll be returning to in due course. Nice stuff, good stuff. If you like our podcast, please share it with your friends and colleagues.
Speaker 1:And we look forward to entertaining you with another one very soon indeed, jeremy, lovely to see you. Yeah, you too. Lovely stuff, bobby Cheers. Okay, all the best, thank you.