The Reality of Business

When Values Get Quiet: Why DEI Cuts Raise Loud Questions

• Bob Morrell and Jeremy Blake • Season 6 • Episode 13

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Are values just words on a wall? Or something you’re willing to stand by – even when it’s hard?

In this episode, Bob & Jeremy take on the uncomfortable question many businesses are now facing: What happens to your integrity when you quietly scale back your DEI programme?

We’re seeing it everywhere - big names like Google, Pepsi, and investment banks are stepping back from the DEI work they once shouted about. And here’s the thing: it’s not just a budget decision. It’s a values decision.

So, we ask:

  • What do those cuts really say about what you stand for?
  • Are we really ‘past the point’ of needing DEI – or just bowing to political pressure?
  • And can values mean anything if they change with the wind?

With real-world examples, a dash of satire (don’t miss Bob & Jeremy’s sketch), and some heartfelt debate, this episode digs deep into the link between inclusion, integrity, and business leadership.

Whether you’re leading a team, shaping company culture, or just wondering where your business stands – this is the conversation you won’t want to miss.

For more info, free resources, useful content & our blog posts, please visit realitytraining.com.

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Bob Morrell:

Hi and welcome to Business on the Radio and today I'm joined by Mr Jeremy Black, who is the CEO of JT Gold, one of the major investment banks in the city. He's joining us today to answer questions about the scaling back of his bank's worldwide diversity, equity and inclusion program. Welcome to the show, mr Black, good morning. For the last few years, I read that your organization has had an extensive series of DEI programs which, according to one of the press releases I read on your website, has greatly improved the diversity of the pool of talent that you're working with. Why have you scaled back this program? In fact, in some places, cancelled it completely?

Jeremy Blake:

Well, that's interesting to say that it's greatly improved. I'm not quite sure where you've read that, and this is really one of the key challenges of measuring if it has any impact at all. What's so important? You've talked about recruitment. What's so important is we have a rigorous recruitment policy where the best people for the job are recruited, and I would like to point out straight away and, if I may, regardless of colour, race, gender or anything, we are open to anybody working at the bank and we always have been, since it was founded. Granted.

Bob Morrell:

So, in terms of cutting back this programme which, as I say, has been running for several years now, was this a financial decision, a cultural one, or something else, one or something else Not at all and I say not at all against my financial decision.

Jeremy Blake:

It's a decision based on a number of the key stakeholders I've talked to where there isn't really any demonstrable difference. We are ethical in our core as people at the bank and by actually having a separate policy with various programs that were running, there was no direct link that could be made. And we need to consider shareholder value. Of course we do, and at the same time, I'm not getting people banging on my door, beating a path to me saying we don't have the right people here. So I find this an interesting debate.

Bob Morrell:

So there was no external pressure on you to scale back these programs. External pressure to scale back? Well, I mean, we know for a fact that Pepsi, GM, Google, Disney, JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Citigroup have all cancelled or scaled back their DEI programs. So you're saying there's no external pressure on you?

Jeremy Blake:

to remove those programs.

Bob Morrell:

I think it's just interesting that there must be a number of a sort of common currency of ideas and thinking around, this Nothing to do with the fact that lots of these organizations have contracts with the American government.

Jeremy Blake:

Well, I would say that it's a thing of our time, or perhaps it was a thing of that time, Perhaps it was a. You know, there have been many trends. Even in my short tenure here at the bank, there's been many trends and focuses and things come and go and I think it's important to recognize this doesn't in any way change our characters and the way we treat people.

Bob Morrell:

That has always been imperative, but that's a really good point that you've made and I want to ask you about that no-transcript there's any political pressure in any way. That's led to this choice.

Jeremy Blake:

Look, when you talk about political pressure, we are in charge of individuals' money. We're also in charge of organizations' money. We're also in charge of public sector money. We have such a vast amount of people when you talk about pressure.

Bob Morrell:

Our job is to return profit on the funds that we are tasked to manage, so so this is completely separate well that what you're saying is completely separate to this point, because you, for the last few years, as many of your uh your colleagues in different organizations have done, have been running successful DEI programs which have broadened the breadth and the empathy towards different types of employee and all of a sudden these have been taken away. So if they're taken away, are you replacing what you might term traditional DEI efforts with a different approach to fostering inclusion?

Jeremy Blake:

So it depends what area of the business you wish to discuss. So you've started with recruitment. We are incredibly careful over getting the right person to fit into the bank and we are completely open to any faith, color, creed, gender persuasion, whatever. That's never changed. I don't need anyone to give me a policy to be human.

Bob Morrell:

Thank you, one of your company's values is a commitment to integrity and fairness. Yes, integrity and fairness. How do you feel that removal of DE programs, which are all about, let's be honest, equity, fairness how do you feel that that squares with your company value? Are you going to remove that as a value now?

Jeremy Blake:

you see you're, you're latching on to something that you've clearly picked up on your research, but I want to go back to a point that you just raised. A second, no, no, I want you to answer that point?

Bob Morrell:

your value is integrity and fairness. Are you saying now that you don't need to be as fair because that program is no longer relevant, because politically it's uncomfortable?

Jeremy Blake:

or been under question. You're questioning it because of the removal of the programs. You're trying to make a connection between the removal of a program which you say has been massively successful I don't know where you're getting that. We know the success of our own programs and at the same time you're trying to make this connection that we're now less human, less fair and so on. And it really doesn't.

Bob Morrell:

Well, actually, to be fair, Mr Black, we know that these things are successful because for the past 10 years, every single major corporation has run these things successfully and then, literally within a few months of a new government being sworn into America, they've all been cut or hugely scaled back. Now I want to move to one other question your company values about the way you deal with your clients and the way you operate with superb excellence, and all these sorts of things. Do you think it's possible to humanize a corporation which, after all, is many humans? Do you think it's possible to create values which actually are humanizing something which isn't actually real?

Jeremy Blake:

values which actually are humanizing something which isn't actually real. No, I don't. And at the same time, I think we could even argue that company values was a trend for a period of time. Having said that, the founders of our bank and the founders of many corporations talked about values and the way to treat people. If you're in a better position than someone else, you should look after people. So I'm not suggesting it needs to be written or printed, but now that we've got them, there's no harm reinforcing them. But I don't believe they can be humanized. But what we can do in our recruitment is look for people with these skills, as I've said before, without any need to hold up a torch to make sure that we are being diverse with our equity and inclusion. We are. We don't need to necessarily run these programs to carry on this behavior.

Bob Morrell:

So actually what you're saying is that these values are largely, to everyone who reads them, meaningless.

Jeremy Blake:

No, I'm not saying that. You've just said that. What I'm saying is that we began with them.

Bob Morrell:

You've just said that by scaling back these things, you don't necessarily need them, which, when we talk about things like integrity and fairness, if that's a value, that's something that you live by, that's something that you stand for, you don't stand for it enough to be able to be diverse to be fair to people and to include people in your organization to the extent that you did before.

Jeremy Blake:

So these are your words. You've tried to make a connection throughout this interview where you're saying it's politically motivated. You're now trying to make a connection between dropping the diversity and inclusion programs with a connection to our values. These are separate. Our values are our values and a human's values. We don't need people to tell us how to do that, and I think that's where this trend perhaps has come up against its problems. So isn't it interesting?

Bob Morrell:

that we're not the only one. We have to leave it there, mr Black, but I suppose it'll come down to customers whether they decide whether or not there's a connection between these things.

Speaker 3:

But anyway, thank you for your time.

Bob Morrell:

Thank you.

Jeremy Blake:

Well, you're listening to the Reality of Business. Thank you for selecting this and making it something that you get pleasure from listening. I'm your host, Jeremy Blake, and there's your host, Bobby Morrell. I'm your host, Jeremy Blake, and there's your host, Bobby Morrell. So you've probably guessed from the sketch that this episode is about diversity, equity, inclusion and a little bit more. So, Bob, do you want to expand on what's led us to want to do this?

Bob Morrell:

Well, there's been so much commentary recently about what's happening. So ever since the inauguration and in fact even before the inauguration, there's been huge controversy, and that's because major corporations, like many that were mentioned in the interview so we're talking about Pepsi, gm, google, disney, ge, intel, we're also looking at major investment banks and other major corporations are all scaling back their DEI programs or initiatives or things that they did to make sure that they had a diverse workforce, that they were fair to everyone and they were inclusive when it came to recruitment and integration and collaboration. And these DEI programs, as I said, in many cases have been running for years and almost overnight they've been cancelled or hugely scaled back. Now in some cases they haven't. Interestingly, apple shareholders voted against banning the DEI initiatives, but interesting that they were asked that question Shall we ban these DEI initiatives?

Bob Morrell:

So, even Apple and I think it's also fair to say that not all companies are abandoning DEI initiatives, but many of the biggest are, and some people have said well, that's because they have huge contracts with the government and the US government are putting these messages out there and then, in fact, internally within the government, they're scaling back these things and they expect their suppliers or the people who provide services to them to do the same, and a lot of organizations, it seems, have found it very easy to reach the decision to cut these programs.

Bob Morrell:

And we just thought it'd be worth having a debate about that, because I've heard lots of debates on programs and looked in various periodicals and also in other podcasts about where this sudden trend which, let's be honest, is a political thing where this trend has come from and how quickly it's been enacted, but also how this also feeds into this thing which we've covered quite a few times on the podcast company values. If you have a company value about empathy or about caring or about trust or about responsibility or anything which opens the metaphorical arms of the organization to everybody on earth, how does that value square with this sort of action, which is clearly coming from a very particular political perspective, and I think it's worth?

Jeremy Blake:

debating. One of the things I thought when and it was one of our clients when we turned up and we were there one day and there was some of this diversity work going on what I sort of squared in my head was this is more powerful than words on a wall saying what their values are, because they're actually doing something about it and they were talking about recruitment, they were talking about gender.

Jeremy Blake:

This was at the time of the pronoun debate debate that you know people choosing to state how they wish to be addressed and there were lots of people who just didn't know anything about this, and so it was a huge leveling level of education taking place in the minds of the people who are in that workshop. And then someone said, oh no, no, we have someone who does this. And I thought, well, so many people wouldn't know this. So it's kind of forming into a question to ask you when you are aligning the two, like the values. In my mind, a DEI program was the definitive creation of something real to try to educate people and improve a company's balance, if you like. Are you saying in your opening address where you're listing these companies, are you saying that they no longer the vast majority, no longer make that connection, which is why they've cut it?

Bob Morrell:

they don't think that you have to have a tangible program to run I think they do make that connection, but I think they've realized that it is not in their interest to explicitly say so by running a program, and so they've cut it to be in step with the current zeitgeist.

Jeremy Blake:

So I use yeah, and that's what's interesting zeitgeist. So when you talked, in the sketch you talked about political alignment. This is a closed question. Do you believe that large corporations believe that if they continue them, the government of their country, or some of the countries they operate in, would look at them less favorably?

Bob Morrell:

This is the question. Now I've got a few stats here, because the four pillars of DEI and you've already mentioned one of them are education, empathy, engagement and accountability. So I suppose what you're saying is that the world has changed in the last 30, 40 years and as an organization, we need to recognize that fact and make sure that we are Now. That's another perspective. You could just say that surely we've moved on to the point where we don't need to educate people and talk about empathy, but maybe we do.

Jeremy Blake:

I immediately, from my perspective, say we do, because I think so many people don't understand it. No, not everyone lives in an ivory tower, but people come from different backgrounds that are so diverse they often have no idea of how another human being lives.

Bob Morrell:

No.

Jeremy Blake:

Or what they've had to go through to arrive somewhere, and so I've always thought that the education allows people who've perhaps led a very secular existence to go gosh. Okay, ah, I had no idea. So I think that pillar of education has immediately been lost if we're not educating, because how many people have the self-motivation to self-educate themselves on this topic?

Bob Morrell:

Exactly the point I was going to make, which is so akin to that, is that if it were the case that we as a society are so advanced and educated now that we no longer need these programs, wouldn't that be wonderful? But the reason they're being cut is because of a political and public backlash that these companies are afraid of. That's the reason In terms of integrity. That's what's so shameful about it that these brands, who have these values that they purport to live by, but then, within a month or two, think I think we'll just cut the DEI because it doesn't quite fit. Well, hang on a minute. What are you talking about? Because where's the empathy? Where's the engagement? Because the reason you have DEI programs presumably is because we haven't got to that point in society where we're educated. We still do need that. We still need people to understand and I've got a definition here of what it gives. It ensures that everyone in the diverse workforce feels involved, valued, respected, treated fairly and integrated into the company culture. Who can argue with that as an objective?

Bob Morrell:

No, it's great Think about the other side of those words Uninvolved, undervalued disrespected, treated unfairly. No, it's great.

Jeremy Blake:

And you posed it as a question, I think aligned to education human beings, often through their parenting and upbringing, many people can't help but form a bias. It's not really genetic, it's more like learnt behavior. That you were told this so many times and if you think of a topic like racism. You and I used to talk about the terre blanche documentary. This who? Yes, yes and he couldn't see it any other way.

Jeremy Blake:

He'd been born a racist, raised a racism nick broomfield trying to ask him very basic questions and he just couldn't see beyond it. So therefore, unless you replace a bias with some level of education, the bias bias remains Absolutely right. When we come into recruitment, for example, if somebody is looking for a certain stereotype that is more akin to them, they're more likely to employ them because they look for it, and once they found it, they'll rely on the rest of the interview to try to reinforce the existing bias and go.

Bob Morrell:

I think you'll fit in here, you know, but isn't that awful that the new government coming in have made people think that their perspective is that DEI has gone too far and things are too diverse and too inclusive and too fair, even on the most basic level. We're being far too fair to women. Now what? This is the point about this? This is purely a political perspective from a very, very, I'm afraid, misogynistic, old fashioned, racist perspective and homophobic and everything else. Ok, it's all coming in from that political side and it's damaging something which was working really well, and it's also done for financial reasons. You're not just doing it from the good of your heart. We'll come on to that in a minute. But I've got another couple of two diverse stats that you'll like, well, one you won't like. So, according to a survey done by personnel today on their website, 20% of Britons support this policy of scaling back DEI. So that's what we're dealing with. We're dealing with a fifth broadly of people who think, yeah, I didn't see the point of doing those things.

Jeremy Blake:

Are we now extending that into again a political hot potato of Brexit and Brexiteer? You could say that you could say that that isolationism, island mentality Possibly. That's still quite a high stat.

Bob Morrell:

I thought it's one in five people it's not, it is, but the good news is and this is one thing that gave me a great relief the reason this isn't quite so acute in the uk is because the uk already has world-leading legislation in the form of the 2010 Equality Act, which actually puts in law lots of the things that these DEI programs talk about. So we are, as a country, further ahead legally on these things than many other countries who don't have anything like that. So that is good. Now, I did read one article which I thought was interesting from the London Business School. They were saying that perhaps this move will lead to better initiatives, not fewer. So you think, well, we're scaling back DEI because it's just what we need to do for PR points of view. Let's think of something better we can do, which we'll call it something else, and it might be more effective. Now I'd like to think that's true, but these are companies.

Bob Morrell:

Jeremy, what does the DEI program cost? Every year, it costs us 50,000. Well, that's easy money. We'll just cancel it. Easy money, we'll just cancel it. And I just think that there's something we have to think about the financial side. Now I'm going to give you a bit of background on that, because yesterday I went into LinkedIn and I asked my thousands of connections on there to give me a comment on this subject, to see if we could, you know, see what's going on in the world out there, and I had a very interesting perspective from a chap who you will remember, alex Copley. We won't say where he works.

Bob Morrell:

He's someone we know. We've worked with him a few times and he's made a very good point here. He says all business initiatives, however far removed they might seem, exist with one sole purpose to help return money to the shareholders. So a good DEI program attracts stronger talent, more cash to shareholders, clearly defined company values, more efficient collaborative organizations, more cash for shareholders, but none of these things are done out of the goodness of anybody's heart. Recently, it seems that anybody that does business with the us government is scaling back well, why it now impacts the money they can return to their shareholders. It might seem cold, but it's the reality. Hoping for a shout out on the podcast well, thanks, alex, you've got that that's really, really intriguing, isn't it?

Jeremy Blake:

and what's very positive about that is if you got hold of a company that were debating the cutting or scaling back and you said now look, you've got to remember that this initiative means that you do it to the very best level, which means that you're more likely to have the right teams who can speak to customers and internally collaborate, which means you're going to sell more and return shareholder value. It's a very good point, love it.

Bob Morrell:

Yeah, so that's the other side of it. But then, if that's true, if everything you do is to return profits, essentially, when you look at your values, these are our values. Why are you bothering with them? Why do you need to say any of that?

Jeremy Blake:

Well, what we seem to have is, if we remove the DEI program, we go back to writing on a wall. You know values on a wall, and I say a wall without joking.

Jeremy Blake:

There are a number of customers who have them on a wall, and sometimes the wall is at reception, sometimes it's a corridor. But if there's no program linked to those values where people actually understand what that means and how to embody it and what you know, that's a word. What we do with that in recruitment is means we do this, embody it and what you know, that's a word. What we do with that in recruitment is means we do this, this and this and let's teach you about it. No, no, and I think that's where it falls down hugely, doesn't?

Jeremy Blake:

well how is someone meant to infer the point I'd like to get to, which is a bit political, but well, it is political, is I? I was reading about reagan and sort of what he did in the 80s and Maggie and these sorts of two tribes, if you like, this concept of meritocracy that if you work hard in life, then you might climb a ladder and get your just rewards. Yeah, so Reaganism was a lot of that.

Bob Morrell:

That's 40 or 50 years ago, where the vast majority of the workforce were men, just on the most simplistic level. So the world's completely shifted now.

Jeremy Blake:

Well, and this is my point, if you think of you know, imagine saying that to somebody being displaced from Yemen, palestine, africa, europe, poland, ukraine hey, do you not know about meritocracy, mate? Just work hard and you'll change your situation. I think that that concept and how he got in was often saying do you want your neighbor being lazy? And all of these kind of speeches. He did, but I think the concept of a meritocracy now is hugely changed and I think that there are people who've never actually had to work that hard and have had things who still believe that if somebody works hard, we can reward them and we hold the power to reward. But I think it's become much more complicated to just come out with a standard saying well, if you work hard, you'll probably get that. I think that's much harder in the world we live in today today.

Bob Morrell:

Well, the most common company values are things like integrity, trustworthiness, respect, empathy, responsibility and commitment all those sorts of things. Okay, now, in july 2024, which is only less than a year ago, forbes magazine published an article that said brands should choose core values that support their purpose, turn them into catchy phrases that their staff can remember, change them constantly so that they're influencing the culture and the actions. And for number four, they should stand by their core values. Now, if that's true and I don't think it is but if that's true, if we went to any of those brands and took a random member of staff and said, can you just remind us what the company values are? Most of them would have no idea.

Jeremy Blake:

Well, my follow up question would then be can you tell me what you're doing to stand by them? Absolutely right. What are you doing? What are you doing to that? Have you heard Jane Fonda's speech? No, that she did. So she does a very political speech at the SAG Awards I think they're called SAG Screen Actors Guild. Yeah, that's it. It's very good. You should watch it. It's just been cut up into a section now where she says, by the way, where she says by the way, being woke just means you care about other people?

Jeremy Blake:

yeah, and she talks about actors. Core role is to be empathetic, to play somebody evil, to at least have the empathy for them, to display them and the actors if they're taking the job seriously, are teaching human beings how to be empathetic. I found that very interesting. It's quite a rallying cry which connects to what your episode is on here, that we have to do stuff about this. You can't just cut stuff. Yeah, just have a listen to that. I think you'll find that intriguing any listener. Just google and look up Jane Fonda's recent speech.

Speaker 3:

It's very, very powerful thank you for listening to the reality of business At Reality Training. We believe in training that's not just informative but transformative. With over 20 years of experience, we've honed our approach to deliver real, measurable change. See what we can do for your business at realitytrainingcom at realitytrainingcom.

Bob Morrell:

Well, my last thing on this is that let's imagine, in four years, eight years' time, different government less passionate about these things, are these programmes going to suddenly re-emerge in these companies because the zeitgeist changes and you think, oh, we better do something to show that we are diverse, fair and inclusive.

Bob Morrell:

How cynical is that that you will simply move Press the switch on again with political wind, yeah, and I think that that also denigrates any idea of what a value might be where you're saying well, this is how we work and how we live. So that comes back to one of the questions I asked you at the beginning in that interview do you think it's possible to humanize corporations? Is that why they have values to say? If this corporation was a person, these are the values they would live by? Do you think that's why they do it? Do you think that's possible to do it?

Jeremy Blake:

I think and I'm going to answer it in a long way If you go back to workers' rights and workers needing better conditions of in a factory, if you like and things start to evolve, you then have some industrialists, stroke entrepreneurs, who decide how we should treat the worker.

Speaker 3:

And.

Jeremy Blake:

I think that's where this starts. So if you look at the idealism of perhaps an enlightened person, so if you think of sped and lewis who creates john lewis, he decides that, written into its very creed, the workers will not be workers, they'll be partners. There are laws about how much more money somebody can earn. That is a an entrepreneur with a socialist set of values.

Bob Morrell:

Which goes completely against the current times we're in.

Jeremy Blake:

It does, but that bizarrely that is a socialist enterprise.

Bob Morrell:

Yes.

Jeremy Blake:

And continues to this day under great strain. But I think that's where it starts. So I believe there was an idealism in those early pioneers who decided to set in stone, quite literally, the values and wished the workers, the partners, whoever they were, the factory people, we will behave differently. So I think it came out of a time of gross neglect and awful conditions to a chance of you know an increasing standards of living started to improve social housing, water, you know all of that stuff, and I think some of those early people did put them in stone. So coming back to your question, do you believe it's possible to humanize? I think if enough people are excited to behave in a certain way, then I believe at least you can have the right level of integrity across a workforce. But I think all the other things become harder and harder.

Bob Morrell:

I also. I'm thinking about something just to finish. One of our recent podcasts that's been very popular is talking about conferences and sales conferences. Imagine doing a conference over the next two or three years where you go onto the stage in front of all your staff and you say let's talk about our values and how we act as a company.

Speaker 3:

How could a senior person say that with a straight face. Now, how could they say that?

Bob Morrell:

How could they say look, this is a really important value for us and this is how much we value you. Well, what about the person who's sitting there thinking I'm not sure you do value me because you took out something that was a really important part of validating me as a human. That's going to bite people over time and I think it's really, really sad. Anyway, we've had a good debate on this. We will come back to this, yeah I'm thinking of.

Jeremy Blake:

Do you remember, in our kitchen, the other day we all had the meeting. We were talking about chocolate and we talked about bourneville sure cabaret and you know the yeah, but bourneville, for example, that's a value. We will upgrade the conditions of you so that you living in much more comfortable surroundings, so you're happier to work, so these kind of things it's. It's almost like a timeline of progression. Now people have the housing, have the thing they want to be treated, treated better understood and um, yeah, it's very complicated but very intriguing.

Bob Morrell:

Well, we will return to the subject to company values, because it'd be quite interesting if some of the values change to the point of it'd be quite interesting if some of the values change to the point of you know they might change some of those words you know our values are work hard. Our values are give us everything. Our values are don't rock the boat, don't be unusual, don't be different. Our values are just do the right thing at the right time. Our values are be well managed. You know something really command and control orientated.

Jeremy Blake:

That would be awful I think also the joke of it is some people's values are deny everything well absolutely right I once met a chap who, when I challenged him and this was something connected to my wife's employment he said if you say anything, I'll deny it till I'm blue in the face. I will continue to deny and I will never admit it. And he told me. He said that's how I live my life.

Bob Morrell:

You as the ceo earlier was very, very ably, yeah, fighting this. But the point is yeah, how can any of them honestly say that this is anything other than a political choice?

Jeremy Blake:

it just is well, it's political and zeitgeist so there's there's obviously a belief that enough people won't mind, whether they're your customers or your employees. But again, who's making the decision?

Bob Morrell:

You know that's the point A good debate. We will return to this at another point soon.

Jeremy Blake:

Thank you for listening and we'll see you on another reality of business very soon and don't forget, you can always work on your values, listener, that's what you're fully in control of. For an optimistic end, note cheers for tuning in. Thank you.