The Reality of Business

Team Leaders Part 1: People Management Without the Drama

• Bob Morrell and Jeremy Blake • Season 6 • Episode 18

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If you lead a team, or have just started, this is part 1 of two episodes all about making that role easier and more effective.

We talk about the stuff that’s hard:

  • What to do when someone says the rules don’t apply to them
  • How to respond without backing down or starting a row
  • Dealing with likeable people who still aren’t performing
  • Helping quiet team members feel confident to speak
  • Getting two people to work together when they clearly don’t want to

You’ll also hear how to open a meeting with purpose, give useful feedback, and create the kind of team environment where expectations are clear and people know what good looks like.

This episode is all about managing people – the day-to-day conversations, nudges, and challenges that come with the job.

Part 2 is coming soon, where we’ll look at managing time, workload, and getting out of firefighting mode.

Listen in and take one idea into your week!

For more info, free resources, useful content & our blog posts, please visit realitytraining.com.

Reality Training - Selling Certainty

Bob Morrell:

So um look, Jeremy, I really appreciate um you taking us through this in this meeting, but I just want to make it clear that um I this doesn't really apply to me, does it? What you're asking. I know you're the team leader, but this doesn't really apply to me, does it?

Jeremy Blake:

I think I think it does. I think I think uh regardless of experience, yeah, yeah, yeah, I do.

Bob Morrell:

I know, but you know, I've been doing this a long time and I've never been asked to do these sorts of things before. So I don't think this applies to me. And I think if you check up the line, it won't be something that I have to to focus on, okay? Yeah. Um okay.

Jeremy Blake:

Uh um I I um I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna come back to you, okay?

Bob Morrell:

Fine, you can do that, but uh yeah, it's it I don't need to be in this meeting anymore, so I'm gonna click off. Okay, cheers. Bye.

Jeremy Blake:

Ooh. We're gonna deal with things like this today when you're leading people. So, Bobby, can you intro? We've got some new episodes we've been researching, and we're gonna launch today, aren't we? So, what are they about? What are we doing?

Bob Morrell:

We are gonna do two episodes focusing on team leaders and team leadership. We need to be clear about what team leadership actually is, and in fact, what is leadership overall, especially when it comes to running things like teams, and most organizations thrive on having efficient teams. And also, we've broken down this subject into three broad areas, but there's a kind of an overall arching thing here because uh we're currently working on two massive projects at the moment, and we're doing a lot of work with team leaders, and a lot of the success of the work that we do hinges on those team leaders being able to lead effectively. And what we just heard there was an example of a not very effective team leader who doesn't know how to deal with an individual in their team who is giving them refusals and pushback. And this is something that we come across a lot, and we want to empower team leaders to be able to cope in all sorts of situations so that they can lead their people effectively.

Jeremy Blake:

If you're listening to this and you are a team leader, it could be that you have the classic ratio. You have about eight, 10, 12. And if you're someone who manages team leaders, however many you have, you may realize that kind of dynamic where you're overseeing potentially a region, it could be a geographic region, of course, it could be a non-geographic region, and you've got these team leaders who are much closer to the people talking to customers, and that's the point. Is the reason why Bob said it hinges on them. They're the closest person to someone doing the work and feeling customer reactions, whether those are business people or consumers.

Bob Morrell:

Now, in my experience, um, a lot of the team leaders that we work with, I think they break down into two camps, and I want to make I want to be very clear about what those two camps are. There are leaders who see their job really as administrators, and what they want to do, what they aim to do, is to get everyone feeling as comfortable as possible and for everything to tick over in a relatively okay way. So that's one type of leader, and then the other type are what you might term far more dynamic leaders who are far more involved, far more proactive with their teams, looking to improve what their teams do all the time. So if you're in that second camp, we're gonna give you lots of stuff today that's gonna help you. If you're in that first camp, our challenge to you is we're not sure that you are effectively leading if you just want everyone to be happy and comfortable and just ticking over. That's not leading. That is simply caretaking performance, and that's not what leadership is. Leadership is absolutely focusing on your people, raising standards, unlocking potential, and your job as a leader is to create a bridge between where people are and where you need them to be. That's what you're there to do. And a lot of what we're gonna think about on these two episodes is focused on those areas. We want to make sure that you, as students of leadership, are able to absolutely apply this to your people right from now. And I think it's gonna make a huge difference to your outcomes and your success.

Jeremy Blake:

I think the other thing I would just say is probably more so in the last five years than in maybe any other period in a long time, lots of people have been promoted into leadership without necessarily setting out with that ideology that they would go up that career path. Quite often they find themselves in a position where company scales change and they're asked to step up. And that's why I'm going to, in this episode, become that new leader. So, what we're gonna try is the dynamic where Bob is, in a sense, the more senior leader, and he's trying to help me understand this world I'm entering. So I'm gonna be green.

Bob Morrell:

Okay, now let's just uh deal with the first point. A lot of organizations, and you may well be in one, the reason they don't have a consistent leadership strategy is really because of two things. It's either one laziness, and that's a tough thing to hear, but some people just can't be bothered to put together a decent leadership strategy. And the second is an addiction to firefighting because all the time you're dealing with crises, you feel as though you're being productive. And actually, if you organized the work and what you did more effectively, which is what leadership is, you would be more effective. Um, it does take work to organize it, and everyone thinks, oh, I can't be bothered, it's so much work to organize everything. Well, do you know what? How much energy and work are you doing handling chaos? So, our big lesson for you on these um on these sessions is to think, okay, what organization do I need to do to make my work more productive and more um effective rather than constantly firefighting? That I think would be a great objective for you to set from these episodes. So let's begin. We're gonna we're gonna deal with this first episode purely on one subject, which is by far the biggest and most difficult subject that that all team leaders face, especially when they're new, and that is managing people. Okay, we're just gonna focus on managing people um for this episode. So, Jeremy, you are the new manager. Let's see what sort of questions you've got. What questions have you got for for the audience?

Jeremy Blake:

Well, I'd love your help, really. I I had a Zoom today with the team. I mean, I I think I'm three weeks in now, and I had Liam, um who's clearly been there, I think the longest, um, most experienced on paper, and he just pushed back at me and said that that what I was suggesting didn't apply to him. And I've got this overall feeling that I mean I'm with them remotely, I'm with them face to face. It's that balancing act that we're all trying to do. But I I just don't understand if I know they're engaged. I just don't know. I don't know who is they're looking at me. I don't know if they're really getting it interested.

Bob Morrell:

Okay, so here's the first question. If I was to say to your team, what are the top three priorities right now, what would they say?

Jeremy Blake:

Um, I think they'd get the top two, but they wouldn't get the third.

Bob Morrell:

Aha. Okay. So this is this is a classic thing where is everyone clear on what the top three priorities are right now?

Jeremy Blake:

No, um no, we keep debating products actually. The point three. I don't think they're clear on which products are the ones that are the autumn range. So actually that that that dances around a bit.

Bob Morrell:

So what could be what could be a really good um action from this? What could you do?

Jeremy Blake:

I reset and make very clear what the next three months' priorities are and um and try to re-engage the focus on that.

Bob Morrell:

And if I could make a suggestion, I would also plot in some times to reiterate that message on several occasions over the next few weeks because I think uh, you know, sometimes you say things that you think are totally clear and it just doesn't go in. And I think repetition is gonna reinforce that message, and uh that's gonna really help them focus on what the goal is. And I would also suggest that they need to make sure they understand what the goal is and the why. Why is that the goal? Yeah, yeah, understand the how, so how they're going to achieve it, and then be reminded of that until it is second nature to them, so that that focus doesn't drift, and then maybe that will help them all. And we'll come on to the your individual in a minute, but I think that's a really good point. No, that's good.

Jeremy Blake:

That's good. I mean, and and then if you've got Liam who says I have a portfolio range, he's forgetting that some of the products for autumn have a shelf life, and which is why we're trying to help people get the most out of them now. Can I just focus on his pushback, the general pushback? Sure. So um what's your current approach to his pushback? I try and make him feel that he's his seniority as an experience is a value to the team, and that um it is for him too, because we're all one team. It shouldn't be that his his route to dealing with customers is any different to anybody else's. I I suppose I speak general fairness back to him and it isn't quite working. He's still wriggling away from it.

Bob Morrell:

Okay. So that sounds to me as though you're either backing down from his pushback um and possibly avoiding the friction that put that your response to that could could uh Yeah.

Jeremy Blake:

I keep trying the come on, come on, but it isn't it isn't really working.

Bob Morrell:

So let's go back to what is the why? Why do we expect a certain standard of performance? Okay, we expect that for a number of reasons. There's business reasons for that, there's values reasons for that, and there's also um, you know, some really important commercial uh elements that are very clear, obvious ones, yeah. Okay, yeah. That's the why. Okay. Now, within that, there are non-negotiables that that are so essential that we expect from our um from our teams and how they perform and what they do. Go back to those. What are the things that we absolutely expect and that they all agree are are essential? Now, it may be that he doesn't quite get how to get to some of those non-negotiables, some of those objectives. It might be that he needs some additional training, coaching, or support that will help him to come closer to it. Um, and we can we can provide that if it's required, and then set a point to review it. And you may need to do that continually with him on his pushback until it lands. But the fact is, if he realizes that if he pushes back and you'll say, Okay, let's go back to why we're doing this, and what is important about this, and what are the non-negotiables that we've all agreed on? Okay, what support can I give you? Okay, let's review how you're doing. Let's review it tomorrow. If he then does still is not getting the message, then there's something else. Then it's not so much, it's not so much his inability, there's something else attitudinal that we might need to think about. Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, how does that sound?

Jeremy Blake:

No, that sounds good. I think much clearer because uh yeah, I'm sounding quite weak when I'm when he's when he's pushing up, really. Pushing back. Okay. So you're talking about going back, making things clear. I don't want to be what they complained about, the last person you ran the team. I don't want to be a kind of micromanager. And that's you know, it's a really weird balance. You you're trying to check in with people, help them, um, but then you don't want to come across as, you know, being over their shoulder.

Bob Morrell:

I know what you mean, but it's similar with your with your pushback person, really. I've you know, often in Teams, people, some teams that you and I have seen in our career, you know, I'm sure, either have to appear to have total freedom and you think, well, I don't know how that works, or you have managers who are literally sitting on top of people and it's too close, and there's very little in between. Now it comes back to this thing about um this balance, which is what are number one, what are the clear expectations? Okay, what is success? What does it look like? Can we all see what that looks like? Can we all envision what that looks like? Yes, it does. Right. We can see what the success is, we can we're absolutely clear on it. So let's now schedule some checkpoints to check that we're moving towards that level of success in the right way. And of course, there are lots of things that our teams have to do, lots of tasks they have to do. Those will result in outcomes. What are the outcomes of those tasks? If we know what those outcomes are, the person isn't just thinking about what their job is, but what is the outcome they're moving towards, and that's going to give the results that appear. Now, that is something that we go back into. I we want our people to be the best they can be, to um to understand those expectations and then try and meet those expectations as as hard as they possibly can. Um, and we're there to support them with those checkpoints and make sure they're focusing on outcomes. That means we've got accountability for what it is they're doing, but there's also some freedom for them to operate as individuals. And that I think is the perfect balance. It's a tough one to strike, but it's that first element. What is success? If we get that really clear, then the rest of it should fall into place. How does that feel?

Jeremy Blake:

Yeah, that sounds good. I'm gonna ask one more, one more question, and then what we're gonna do in this podcast is we're gonna go to a quick fire where I'm gonna fire questions at you and you kind of go through some top tips. So, one other thing, Bob, with this team of mine, you know, I've got vocal Liam, but I've got very quiet people who don't open up to me. And also, when you came in the other day and you helped run that meeting and you were kind of talking, there's some people who just don't talk much, don't share much. How can I get these people to open up? I've got a few of them.

Bob Morrell:

Well, I think that's um a very interesting point. Lots of teams have uh all various types in these days, and some people aren't very vocal, not very uh open when it comes to coming forward with ideas and um perspectives. Um, I think with somebody some people who are quiet, it's a nice thing to do to say, look, this idea you've got about whatever it may be, I think it's a really important thing for you to share. So I'm going to ask you to talk a bit about that when we all meet together. Nice, so pre, pre, set it up, prep prep them in advance. Good, and then when when you're in that situation, you just gently call them in and just say, Look, you were talking about something I think it would be really good for you to share and get them to share it. Um, it is public, of course, but I think after you've had that discussion, make it in public again. Say, I really appreciate you sharing that thing you did in there. Thank you for that. Yeah, yeah. Those three elements sound so simple that then once I know that that's what it's going to be, then I'm much more likely to want to chip in.

Jeremy Blake:

At reality training, we spend a lot of time working with team leaders. Team leaders are a really important part of modern businesses. And if they're skilled at leadership, they can really create a high-performing, motivated and productive team. If they lack skills and knowledge, then that's where we can come in. We know what it is to be a successful team leader, and we've got a series of modules on areas like presentation skills, time management, running meetings, performance coaching, delegation, and how to manage remote teams and many more. These make a really big difference to your team leaders' effectiveness and the results they can produce with their people. We know that team leaders are essential these days, probably more than ever, and we also know how to make them really good at what they do. For more information on how we can help your team leaders transform your business, contact reality training. Selling certainty. Right, we're now going to move to the quickfire round, which are questions we are often asked by team leaders. And I'm now going to be this team leader, and I want you to think of these questions. So, really succinct answers, Bobby. How do I give feedback?

Bob Morrell:

Simple. Number one, start with what worked. Okay. Number two, the one thing that I would improve or change or make better would be this. And then three, a belief. You're capable of doing this. I think it's going to make a big difference. It's going to be really fantastic. Those three things mean that whenever you give feedback, the people are open to it and want to hear it.

Jeremy Blake:

We live in a meetings culture. Number two, how can I how should I open my meetings?

Bob Morrell:

Okay, first of all, uh, it's the first minute that makes all the difference. So you've got to absolutely get that first minute right. So don't open with a load of small talk crap or really loose agendas. Be really solid at the beginning of the meeting. There's three things to remember. Number one, what is the purpose of this meeting? One clear line. Don't pussyfit around. One clear tagline for the meeting. Two, set the time expectation and stick to it. And number three, assign roles in the meeting. Someone's going to take notes, someone's going to manage the time, someone's going to take us through some feedback from yesterday. Make sure everyone understands roles that will focus people in team meetings.

Jeremy Blake:

Next question. Let's go back to the actions that we got earlier.

Bob Morrell:

The clarity of purpose. A leader should be able to define succinctly what success looks like. Okay. So you look up and you think, yeah, that's what the vision is of what we're what it is we're trying to do. So define the what and the why. We are doing this thing to achieve this. Great, I get that. Um, sometimes you can come to your team and go, okay, that's the what and the why. You tell me what's the how. How do we get to that? Absolutely. And then lastly, set a follow-up.

Jeremy Blake:

I could put it to them, yeah. Good. Um, they see me as somebody who should know a lot of answers because I did the job before for a number of years and then just stepped into leadership.

Bob Morrell:

What do I do when I don't have all the answers? So don't pretend you know and dodge the answer, and don't pretend that's just it's not going to work and it's going to undermine trust, and leadership is all about trust. Number one, acknowledge you don't have all the answers. Number two, tell them what you do know for certain, whatever that may be, and then set a next step. I will find out more and update you at a certain time. That's the best you can do. Um, but it will engender trust.

Jeremy Blake:

Two of the people in the team, one guy, one girl, um, I knew very closely. They're really lovely people, but they just don't perform. How do I deal with nice guys in the other thing?

Bob Morrell:

Lots of people trade in their jobs on their likability and they think they're too likable to get rid of. Um, I think it's important to come back to what the goals are of the organization with with the individual and the goals of the team. Um, I think you can therefore show them the data because they can't hide from the data. So they're really good, but you know, they're not doing their best. Um, you then help them understand that likability doesn't beat performance. You can appreciate them as a great teammate, but you make it clear the output has got to improve.

Jeremy Blake:

Next question. I've got two people both very good on their own, they refuse to work together, and it's a kind of constant, you know, elephant in the room. How can I get them to try and try and work together?

Bob Morrell:

Number one, how does that poor relationship affect the goals that you're heading towards? Quite a lot. It's a general area of negativity. You need to make that very clear to them that that is uh detrimental. You then have to create a structured collaboration between the two. Yeah. And they're not going to like that, but that is leadership is to is to build on whatever they do have and make it better. They then have to have joint accountability meetings through that process on that collaborative element. Um, because if you don't get them to work together, what you're training is your avoidance of that issue.

Jeremy Blake:

Yeah, very good.

Bob Morrell:

And that will just undermine my last one for now.

Jeremy Blake:

Neggies, neggies, neggies. Everyone's got a neggy. What's the most simple advice you can give to new team leaders, including me, dealing with negative people?

Bob Morrell:

You sometimes get a real negative person in a meeting chiming in. Acknowledge their concern. I hear that concern, I hear it. Then throw it back to them. What solution do you see for this then? Um okay, that's difficult. Now they may not have any solutions. They may say, Well, I I don't think it's relevant, I don't think we should be doing it. Well, I heard what you said about it. What's the solution? Because it's not disappearing. What's the solution? And then you can say, Look, let's reframe this. What are the things we can control? Well, we could control our the way we feel about it, we can it we can control what we do, we can control different elements of it. Let's reframe that solution. And the moment people start being negative and you start asking for solutions, different parts of the brain engage, and it becomes very important. Rather than the moan. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So there we are.

Jeremy Blake:

So last last thought in this episode. I think it was Drucker who said um culture, you know, eat strategy for breakfast or whatever it was. You know, just the company culture is the dominating force, how people sort of feel around there. Some of the team go to team leaders and and sort of want them to change the culture of the organization. You know, well, you're you're now a leader. Come on, this is wrong that we have this, this is wrong that we have these things going on. So, what would you say to team leaders who quite simply they can't change the culture of the organization, but they've got to kind of mentally deal with that and respond to that.

Bob Morrell:

It's it's it's really difficult because um as as individuals we uh we have these things uh given to us by an organization. As an individual, of course you can't change the culture of um of your organization. The only thing you can change is the culture in your team. And if you create a team that has a fantastic culture, then those people will be successful and they will move to other teams and they will spread that idea of what a great culture is. Okay. You cannot say our new culture is gonna be this and we're gonna become it from above. It just doesn't work that way. No, it has to be that team leader going, This is what we're gonna create, it's gonna be amazing, and let's all work in it together. And as you are successful, you will go to other teams and you will spread that culture. And I think if you take more personal responsibility for that, then you're gonna be more successful.

Jeremy Blake:

I'm just thinking that's almost like families, isn't it? You can't when the all when when about five siblings and their next families all gather at Christmas, you've still got five different cultures because each family's gone off and created its own mini culture, hasn't it? From the matriarch or the patriarch before them. Very good. Well, look, hopefully you've enjoyed that episode. We're gonna do another one, aren't we, in the canon, which is you know, definitely this is a big topic, team leaders. We're gonna move away from people in the next one. So, do you want to let them know what it's about? And then we're gonna sign off and then we'll get you to tune in.

Bob Morrell:

The next one's gonna be all about managing time and managing work. And I'll leave you with one little thing to think about. In most movies, leaders that are portrayed are bad leaders because bad leaders are much more exciting and interesting. Yeah, if you go into a really good organization where everyone gets on, when you look around, it's actually not that exciting. That's because everyone's motivated, knows what they're doing, and there's a lot of self-leadership going on. And I think if when it comes to managing people, that idea of creating pockets of self-leadership is a great objective.

Jeremy Blake:

Good stuff. Thanks, Bobby, for this fast and furious um episode on team leadership. Hopefully, you've enjoyed it, and we'll see you on another one soon. Bye.