Business Language, Political Spin & the Loss of Plain Speaking

We’ve all sat in meetings where a lot of word are used, and nothing really gets said. 

In this episode, Bob and Jeremy talk about the language that’s crept into politics and management over the years. The phrases that sound confident and purposeful but often dodge the issue or leave everyone none the wiser.

Why do we accept that certain areas of work and public life are packed with oddly chosen terms that make our skin crawl or test our patience? And at what point did we lose the habit of just saying what we mean, simply and directly?

From political staples like “tough decisions” and “the national interest” to workplace favourites such “let’s take this offline” or “have you got the bandwidth?”, we look at what these phrases are really doing. Not just how annoying they are but how they affect leadership, trust, decision-making and everyday communication at work.

We also talk about standards. What comes as standard in the way your organisation communicates? Could your people explain what those phrases actually mean? And would things improve if clearer language became the norm rather than the exception?

If you’ve ever left a conversation feeling confused, irritated, or quietly switched off, this episode will strike a chord.

This podcast comes from Reality Training. For the last 25 years, we’ve transformed the customer interactions of many leading UK businesses and developed thousands of managers to be better at what they do.

For more info, free resources,  useful content & our blog posts, please visit realitytraining.com.

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Transcript

Welcome And Episode Setup

Jeremy Blake 0:28

Hello, and thank you. Uh thank you, listeners, for telling other listeners to join as we have had a wonderful surge of new people who've discovered our most recent podcast on standards. So um we have raised the standard in listener numbers, so thank you so much. Um here we are today and Bobby Morrell is in his new booth. He I need to share that with you. I'm looking at him in a new booth, it's quite impressive. It's not as impressive as the booths that we sat and had breakfast in in Princeton, if you remember those days, Bobby.

Bob Morrell 1:02

I do.

Jeremy Blake 1:03

But it's a sound booth, and uh we hope that his sound is quite glorious. We're both in our little studios. And today we have something special for you. And the working title is Double Speak Rhetoric and Spin. The language of politicians, you know, the language of business. Is it persuasive or confusing or just bull? Quite a long title. And Bobby, you have been researching this topic because I think at the beginning of the year we just thought, wow, the the rhetoric and language has seemed to be reaching new levels. It's almost hark harking back to a previous era of political speak. So I think it's been an enjoyable topic for you as our resident historian stroke politician.

Why Rhetoric Feels Louder This Year

Bob Morrell 1:51

Um I must uh of course give a nod to the excellent and humorous podcast by Armandu Ianucci called Strong Message Here, which uh you can find on the BBC Sounds app. And uh he has various comedians like um Stuart Lee and others um talking about these things that politicians say. And over our years uh working in business, there's also, of course, lots of things that people say in management as well. So what I've done is I've got a list of ten political terms that are used all the time, that we can have a bit of a chat about those. And then I've got a list of ten management terms that many of you will be familiar with. And then I've also got five of those terms that you'll be slightly less familiar with, which are uh almost like the sort of coming up things that you're gonna hear. So if you hear some of these things in the next few weeks, you can go, aha. I heard that on the podcast. So lots of good stuff to look at.

Ten Political Phrases Under The Microscope

Jeremy Blake 2:53

Now, knowing this was coming up uh your episode, if you like, I wonder if you're going to bring into your list some of the ones that make parts of my insides visibly move. Uh I say visibly, no one can see it, um, internally move. There are certain phrases that people say that almost make a bit like biting into a lemon. They kind of make you wince.

Bob Morrell 3:17

Oh, I've got some that are gonna make a make your non-existent hair curl. So yeah, it's it's gonna be good. Okay, let's start off with the political ones, okay? Now, the one that I hear a lot of, um, okay, so let's try let's try and do a role play on this, Jay. I want you to be a hard-hitting journalist, okay? And I'm a politician, and I want you to challenge me on um a decision that's been taken that lots of people don't agree with. So imagine it's um No, I've got one.

Jeremy Blake 3:49

Don't worry, I've got one.

Bob Morrell 3:50

Go for it, go for it.

Jeremy Blake 3:52

So, winter fuel allowance. I mean, extraordinary. There are so many people who are wealthy in this country, there's no proper means testing for this. I mean, there's people who have huge pensions and yet you give it to everybody. This is ludicrous, isn't it? Why are you still dishing out without means testing the winter fuel allowance?

Bob Morrell 4:11

Well, I think what you'll know about me that as a politician, I um I'm not afraid of making tough decisions. And what we've done is that we've made a very tough decision, and we're going to be limiting that allowance from now on uh under certain criteria. And I make no apology for taking those tough decisions. So there you've had two. You've had tough decisions or not afraid of making tough decisions, and I make no apology. So you're making no apology for something that perhaps you should apologize for. It's a really interesting term, isn't it? Because it doesn't it doesn't actually mean anything.

Jeremy Blake 4:55

If if I if I'd had my gallbladder removed, I would no longer be able to produce the bile that's just been produced.

Bob Morrell 5:04

Very much so. And I make no apology for that. I make no apologies to.

Jeremy Blake 5:08

I'm not afraid to make tough decisions. It's it's obfuscating the question. Yes.

Bob Morrell 5:13

Yeah.

Jeremy Blake 5:13

But it'll I haven't asked I haven't asked you about your character. No. And whether or not I haven't had a I'm not disputing your character, I'm disputing the winter fuel allowance and the way it's done.

Bob Morrell 5:23

As if anyone would walk into a voting booth to vote and think, oh, I must vote for that guy who's not afraid of making tough decisions.

Jeremy Blake 5:32

It's literally. Do you know I I have to hark back to my Yellow Pages days. There were two leaders there, both Scottish, and this was their favourite thing. I make no apology. They would say it a lot. They'd say it in meetings about, you know, I make no apology for killing you all within an inch of your life working late because we've now hit the target. I make no apology that I've not promoted you. Yeah, it that I think I make no apology. Does that make mean you don't have to apologize? It's really intriguing, isn't it?

Bob Morrell 6:01

Now, here's a great one. This has happened this week. Someone big in politics resigned this week. Um, so ask me why I've resigned, Jay. So very straightforward question. Why have you resigned? Well, I think it's important um because I was becoming a distraction and um the government needs to get on, and I'm becoming a distraction. Isn't that good? It lets you off, doesn't it? It lets you off a little bit.

Jeremy Blake 6:31

So you know in French the word distraction means amusement. So that too, I was becoming an amusement, is actually that's good, isn't it? But the truth is, I always remembered that.

Bob Morrell 6:42

You're actually more entertaining, doesn't it?

Role-Play: Tough Decisions And Non-Apologies

Jeremy Blake 6:44

Yeah, I was becoming a distraction, I was becoming an amusement.

Bob Morrell 6:48

Okay, so um have a go at me about ask me why the government is changing course. Ask me that.

Jeremy Blake 6:55

You said in your manifesto, a clear direction, you now have completely made a U-turn, which is a word you often talk about yourself. Why have you done this?

Bob Morrell 7:06

What's important for you to understand is that what we've done this week is done a reset on what's going on. And what that means is we've now got a much clearer set of priorities going forward. Oh, I beg your pardon for asking. I didn't know. Reset.

Jeremy Blake 7:21

Now I know you did a reset button. I I'm I'm so sorry. Was it just the software needed a reset?

Bob Morrell 7:25

Okay, I mean, it's I mean, in the words of your father, it is brilliant bollocks, isn't it? Brilliant. It really is. You're taking brilliant bollocks. Now, how about this? Now, um, I might be flying a kite here, but I think we need to think about um taxing richer people at a higher level.

Jeremy Blake 7:44

I've never heard this.

Bob Morrell 7:46

Oh, this is a whole thing, not just that. Is this one of your interlopers? No, no, no. This is uh this is what they say a lot in politics. I might be flying a kite here. They fly a kite. What they do is they throw a policy out there as an option, okay, and then people go, hmm, I don't like that policy, and they go, Well, I'm not gonna do it then. So they do a little U-turn, they fly a kite, and the other one they do is um I'm gonna be rolling the pitch.

Jeremy Blake 8:12

Oh, rolling the pitch here.

Bob Morrell 8:14

I'm rolling the pitch. That's what um the Chancellor did recently about tax increases. She rolled the pitch two weeks before the budget. Um, so you know, that's quite good. Um, so flying a kite rolling the pitch. Now, um okay, so they're both horrendous. Ask me about um about you the UK's nuclear deterrent and why we wouldn't go to another country to buy our nuclear weapons. Ask me about that.

Jeremy Blake 8:44

So there's a lot going on around the world at the moment. We look at Iran, we look at the nuclear deterrent. Why are we not potentially buying arms in other countries and other nations? Why why do we have to self-make everything?

Bob Morrell 8:57

I think it's really important for people to understand that the decisions we are making on defence are always in the national interest.

Jeremy Blake 9:04

And sorry, beg your pardon again. I should never have asked. Now you now you said it's the national interest. I I not the national, not just the interest, uh the national interest, right.

Bob Morrell 9:13

Now, what they oft what politicians often do is use that as a stick to beat the other parties on. So if the parties complain about something, they'll say, well, though that they're not making decisions in the national interest, they're making them from a party political point of view. So national interest is big. Um now that's not that's that's nationalism. Oh, but to some degree. Now listen, Jeremy, I don't want any more of these difficult questions from you journalists, because I think it's important for you to understand that what we're concentrating on is delivering for ordinary people.

Jeremy Blake 9:45

Oh, please, please, please, please. It's a film with Robert Redford. Um, ordinary ordinary people. Yeah. Um it makes me think of Alan Party. Who are they?

Bob Morrell 9:56

Can you define an ordinary person?

Jeremy Blake 9:57

Well, they're not, they're not, they're not interesting. Um, they're not they're not intriguing, they're very ordinary.

Bob Morrell 10:03

Um, and you want to be an ordinary person.

Jeremy Blake 10:06

Ordinary girl, millions just like you. Alan Partridge sung that song. Do you remember? Well, can you imagine going on a dating app and you see?

Bob Morrell 10:14

I'm looking for an ordinary person. And well, imagine someone describe themselves as quite ordinary. You know, it's you know, not exactly.

Jeremy Blake 10:21

Well, I suppose it makes us feel that the forgotten, the people without voices, are not being missed. Do you think that's the angle they're taking?

Bob Morrell 10:30

Okay. Um, ask me why um uh why we've increased business taxes.

Jeremy Blake 10:38

So corporation tax was 20%. There was notes of the climate's now 25%. Just this, amongst other taxes, why have you increased corporation tax to a quarter of the profit?

Bob Morrell 10:50

I think it's very important for people to understand that um we take this very seriously, and at the same time, we don't want to spook the markets with our policy. Oh spooking the markets. So are the markets a kind of group of young people who hang around and then suddenly they hear something, they go, Oh, oh my god, oh, we've been spooked. And they, you know, what who is the person that is spooked by things that happen in the economy? Spooking the markets is such a good term, isn't it? It's so Halloween childishness. Yes, it's so childish. And the last one I've got on the political one is um, and this is very prevalent at the moment with the so many Tory MPs going to reform, turncoats.

Jeremy Blake 11:38

Now, where does that come from? Who were their first turncoats?

Bob Morrell 11:41

The turncoats were from the American Revolution, where um they would go from red to blue or from blue to red, you know, you would have people. Oh, you mean the the American Civil War? That's right. No, no, the American Revolution, where they chucked out the British.

Jeremy Blake 11:56

Oh, that war of independence.

Bob Morrell 11:59

Yeah, right. Absolutely, yeah.

Jeremy Blake 12:00

1776. Um that's interesting, complete digression. Did you know that I think it's Aronofsky, the director, is making a completely AI film on the 1770s called 1776. That looks good. Yeah, it looks good. Yeah, interesting. Um, so the turncoats were ones who went to fight for the British or the the Germans who were helping us hugely in that 25% or a third were Germans, weren't they?

Bob Morrell 12:26

Well, they were, but um interestingly, there was a British general who fought for the Americans and then went across to the British, and he was known as one of the greatest turncoats in history. Yeah. So there we are. Now.

Jeremy Blake 12:40

Did he then? I I'd like to just know, did he then, bit like a Russian defect, did he come and live his out his years in Blighty or not?

Bob Morrell 12:46

He did, in the end. Did he really?

Jeremy Blake 12:48

Wow.

Bob Morrell 12:50

This podcast comes from Reality Training. For the last 25 years, we've transformed the customer interactions of many leading UK businesses and developed thousands of managers to be better at what they do. To find out more about our work and to see what we could do to help your organization, go to realitytraining.com. So let's move into management.

Flying Kites And Rolling The Pitch

Jeremy Blake 13:17

Yeah. Oh, this is uh this is uh this is a field, isn't it?

Bob Morrell 13:20

You haven't eaten recently, have you?

Jeremy Blake 13:22

No, I haven't, not for many hours.

Bob Morrell 13:24

Um so we're in the middle of a meeting. You've just asked me a question which is tangential to the conversation we're having. It's a slightly different subject, okay?

Jeremy Blake 13:35

Okay.

Bob Morrell 13:36

Thanks for that, Jay. Um, why don't you and I take this offline and uh we'll cover that later.

Jeremy Blake 13:42

Yeah, that's that's utterly repulsive, isn't it?

Bob Morrell 13:45

Yeah.

Jeremy Blake 13:46

It's it's so grotesque, it's as if what we're in is a digital world. It's so gross.

Bob Morrell 13:52

Do you know what that actually says? If if anyone says to you, let's take this offline, what that says is this is awkward, and I don't want witnesses to the conversation we're gonna have. That's really belittles it as well.

Jeremy Blake 14:04

It makes out that it's yeah, yeah.

Bob Morrell 14:07

Now in the in the infer thing. In the same meeting, just after I've said let's take this offline, you'll go, okay, and I'll say, Yeah, we'll we'll circle back on that.

Jeremy Blake 14:16

Oh, don't please.

Bob Morrell 14:18

There's so much of this. Um now look, guys, I think it's really important that we uh make sure we're going after the low-hanging fruit.

Jeremy Blake 14:28

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Because we do a lot of fruit picking in this country all the time, don't we?

Bob Morrell 14:33

All of us. Jeremy, I like the way you've committed to this project. Are you sure you've got the bandwidth?

Jeremy Blake 14:39

Oh, dear, yeah, because I am broadband.

Bob Morrell 14:42

Okay, now this is one I read and I thought it was really funny, and I've heard this a couple of times. You're expressing something, and then someone says, Can I offer a gentle challenge to that?

Jeremy Blake 14:54

Oh.

Bob Morrell 14:55

It's slightly flirtatious, isn't it? But it is actually it's actually a very polite way of saying you've just spoken bollocks. Can I offer a gentle challenge to that? It's quite good, isn't it?

Jeremy Blake 15:06

It's a sort of Oh no, it's not good, it's awful. Can I offer a gentle challenge?

Bob Morrell 15:11

Now, this is one we hear a lot, and I just think we just need to say it. If anyone says to you, with respect, I think what's really important is because that with respect contains no respect. Okay, at all.

Jeremy Blake 15:28

Well, we've got to talk Alan Partridge again when he interviewed um Nick Nick Ford. Nick Ford. Nick Ford. He said with respect, and then he came back and said with slightly less respect.

Bob Morrell 15:39

Right, exactly.

Jeremy Blake 15:40

In fact, that's what we encourage you to do. If someone says with respect, you come back and say with slightly less respect, I didn't need to hear that.

Bob Morrell 15:47

Now, um, there's a couple others here which are so good. Okay. So, how many businesses have we worked with in recent years who've said what we want to do is create a culture of ownership throughout the entire organisation, okay really?

Jeremy Blake 16:03

You don't want anyone, any you don't want anyone to be a serf, you want everyone to be landowners.

Bob Morrell 16:08

Marvellous. What they mean by that, if you think about that, the term create create a culture of ownership sounds amazing. But they want to do that, okay, with um to get which gives people that feeling of responsibility, but they have no authority, they have no budget, and they have no decision rights.

Jeremy Blake 16:30

Yeah.

Bob Morrell 16:31

So we're gonna create a culture of ownership without giving you anything to own. We just want you to feel like you're an owner, but we're not gonna allow you to make decisions.

National Interest And Ordinary People

Jeremy Blake 16:39

The only the only thing they want you to own is the tasks that you're given that you will complete them and you won't complain about them.

Bob Morrell 16:47

Well, the only way this is gonna work, Jeremy, is um if you can bring your whole self to work.

Jeremy Blake 16:52

Oh, don't, don't, uh Can you do that?

Bob Morrell 16:54

Because I've seen you come in a few times and there's been a third of you there, maybe? Yeah.

Jeremy Blake 16:59

Well, ever since the amputation, I have left one of my legs at home quite often. I will not bring my whole self always.

Bob Morrell 17:05

No. Now, for now, I think we need to park that. Yeah. Okay. Do you want to put a pin in it as well? Let's put a pin in it, pop a pin in that, which is also another way of saying shut up, park that. Now, um, let's imagine we're in a meeting, you've raised, a bit like um, let's take this offline, okay? You've raised a topic that um that I don't really want to talk about, okay? Rather, rather than say, let's take this offline, I'll say this. Hmm. There's a conversation to be had about that. Oh no. So let's take this offline and do that later.

Jeremy Blake 17:40

So your tone, your tone of fake intrigue might m nullify me momentarily.

Bob Morrell 17:47

Now, that's enough for now. I think I've given people plenty of uh there. There are loads.

Jeremy Blake 17:52

You have missed, you have missed my that makes me. Well, we had a dear old chap who he's not that old, but he's a bit older. Um, he's been retired a bit, who when we used to have meetings with him and we'd talk about what work we were gonna do, he would say that I think there's a piece around. And I always found this bizarre because the piece would be static. Yeah. You see, I always thought if you were cutting a birthday cake and there was a piece there, you'd never say there's a piece around. Because then you're starting to smear the chocolate cake over. You might have decorations or plates around the piece of cake, but there's no piece around. How does the piece move? I think there's a piece around leadership, I think there's a piece around delegation, I think there's a piece of a piece around.

Bob Morrell 18:38

Surely it's a piece about leadership. Yeah, if you have a piece of about if you have a piece, it's about it, not around it.

Jeremy Blake 18:45

There's a but the piece, the single the a single piece, it's it's sort of a repulsive word, piece, isn't it?

Bob Morrell 18:53

Of course.

Jeremy Blake 18:54

Now a piece.

Bob Morrell 18:55

What we haven't done here is look at some of the um, you know, the three-letter acronyms that perpetuate business these days. We might have to.

Jeremy Blake 19:04

Well, Terry Terry Morris taught us when he was working with us TLR. That's a lovely TLR. And people go, what three-letter acronym? It has its own three-letter acronym.

Spooking The Markets And Turncoats

Bob Morrell 19:13

Oh, there we go. I know. Um, so that's and that's enough to keep people thinking about it at the moment. Now, the important point to say is that the kindest thing you can do to someone who uses a lot of this speak is to point it out. I wasn't very good at it when I was younger. I used to work for a chap. Everything he said was from different people's perspective.

Jeremy Blake 19:37

I remember you telling me about this guy.

Bob Morrell 19:38

So from my perspective, it's like this. From your perspective, it's like that from their perspective.

Jeremy Blake 19:42

Just summarising views.

Bob Morrell 19:44

And so you know what everyone's perspective is on everything. Oh, yes, I do. And it went on and on, and he'd say it about eight times a day, and I just wanted to strangle him in the end. Why not just say that? I think Glenn Hoddle did that.

Jeremy Blake 19:56

I think Glenn Hoddle talked about it. His was situation. Oh, situation, yeah. When you're in that situation, when you're in that situation, and when you find yourself in this situation, he said it about eight times in an interview.

Bob Morrell 20:06

Yeah. He was in situations. Yeah, it's good, isn't it? Well, look, I think um the best thing we can say to our listeners is look out for these. Well, we hope we hope they're now across this.

Jeremy Blake 20:17

That's another one. I'm across this. Yeah, you're over it. You used to be on top of it. Now you're across it. You're no longer on top of it. Maybe that's because that's too sexual. So now you're across it. But that's contextual as well, isn't it? It is, isn't it? You're above. I'm under it. I'm under this. Ooh, you're you're subjugated. Um that's really odd, isn't it? I'm all over I'm all over it. That's perverted, isn't it? Um I'm across this, someone I'm all over it. Ugh. It's uh well, thank you for that. Well, look, uh on that, um, let's uh I think we need to point something out that um you, my you are probably guilty, the listener, you. Which which is your one? So, you know, ask somebody who knows you well and is prepared to tell you the truth. What do I say that that makes you wince like biting into a lemon that causes a bit of your stomach, your bit of your lunch to move?

Bob Morrell 21:14

I can tell you what you do, which is different. Okay. You find words that you've never used in common parlance, and then they become your word for about two weeks.

Jeremy Blake 21:26

And I get excited about the word. Oh, yeah, that's me.

Bob Morrell 21:29

So there was a there was a period a little while ago, and I mentioned it on a podcast where you said extrinsic on every sentence. You couldn't say it. But do you know why?

Jeremy Blake 21:40

I read about I was trying to deal with one of my children, and I read about rewards, and I got very excited about intrinsic and extrinsic. I couldn't get couldn't get over that joyous discovery.

Bob Morrell 21:49

Oh, no. And and and I remember listening to you once thinking, I don't think he's ever actually used that word. And in fact, I used a word in an email the other day, and you Picked map picked up on it as well. Um, yeah, you did. What was that?

Jeremy Blake 22:04

Oh, you said, oh yeah. Requisite. It does all make sense. We're putting together the requisite content at the moment.

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Bob Morrell 22:14

That's a good word. That's a good word.

Jeremy Blake 22:22

You know, you know, you know what I got very excited about for a while? Exemplars, didn't I? Oh, yeah, that was one of yours. Like, like the example, the top, it's an exemplar essay, an exemplar answer. Yeah, she uses that all the time, and I thought, actually, it's quite good for us. What's the exemplar in that one?

Bob Morrell 22:40

Very good. Well, look, um, good luck with that, everyone. Um, and we will see you soon with another podcast um to point out um the vagaries of management and leadership and business, but also to give you tips and ideas.

Management Jargon Hits The Boardroom

Jeremy Blake 22:55

I've got one tiny thing to say. Uh, you know, in the title, are you trying to confuse someone? Because if you do, you will, if you're trying to persuade someone, this kind of language that isn't earthy real language doesn't effectively persuade people and get them, you know, geared up to do things with you and for you and so on. It's just non-persuasive language. It is seen as gobbledygoo can speak.

Bob Morrell 23:20

Okay, see you on another one soon.

Jeremy Blake 23:22

Cheers all the time.