A Question of Faith: Grief in Jewish Thought

In this episode, we speak with Rabbi Dan Liben, of Temple Israel of Natick, about faith and grief.  Lots of people talk about faith.  They may talk about faith in God or faith in man or faith in science, but what is faith?  How does faith help us during times of distress? Perhaps, instead of faith, people are talking about a kind of trust.  Is faith something we should consciously think about in our everyday lives? Perhaps, instead of faith, people are talking about a kind of trust.  Is faith something we should consciously think about in our everyday lives? 

Rabbi Daniel Liben was ordained by the Jewish Theological Seminary in 1983, and became the spiritual leader of Temple Israel of Natick, Massachusetts, in 1991.   He is a past president of the Massachusetts Board of Rabbis, and of the New England Region Rabbinical Assembly. Dan has made the exploration of prayer as a spiritual practice a cornerstone of his Rabbinic work.  

Dan has taught meditation to Rabbis at the Institute for Jewish Spirituality.  Dan also teaches Israeli Folk Dancing and likes running. Dan is married to Fran Robins Liben and together they have five grown children and eight grandchildren.

Most importantly, Dan is Michael's brother. Collectively, they are bereaved of their father and Michael's daughter/Dan's niece Liel. Michael's loyal Listeners may remember when Rabbi Liben was on the program in Season 1 where he talked about Jewish Observance of Grief.

Rabbi Daniel's Biography

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Transcript

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 0:00

Well, I think in as with all things with people in mourning, you take your lead from them. If a person in mourning feels that they want to have a theological conversation or talk on any level about God, then then your role is to hear that and to help guide them through that in the way that they want to be guided.

Michael Liben: 0:28

Lots of people talk about faith, they may talk about faith in God or faith in man, or faith in science. But what is faith? How does faith help us during times of distress? Perhaps instead of faith, people are talking about a kind of trust. Is faith something we should consciously think about in our everyday lives? Welcome to the 54th episode of "Bereaved But Still Me", the podcast formerly known as "Heart to Heart with Michael", a program for the bereaved community. Our purpose is to empower bereaved members of our community with resources, support and advocacy information. Today's program -"A Question of Faith - Grief in Jewish Thought". Here with us today to discuss this is our guest Rabbi Daniel Liben. Rabbi Liben was ordained by the Jewish Theological Seminary in 1983, and became the spiritual leader of Temple Israel of Natick, Massachusetts in 1991. He is a past president of the Massachusetts Board of Rabbis and the New England Region Rabbinical Assembly, Dan has made the exploration of prayer as a spiritual practice, a cornerstone of his rabbinic work. Dan has taught meditation to rabbis at the Institute for Jewish Spirituality. He also teaches Israeli folk dancing, and likes running. Dan is married to Fran Robins Liben and together they have five grown children and nine grandchildren. But more importantly, for our purposes tonight, Dan is my brother. Collectively we are bereaved of our father, and, my daughter, his niece, Liel. Our loyal listeners may remember when Rabbi Liben was on our program in season one, where we talked about Jewish observance of grief. So Dan, thank you so much for coming back to the program.

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 2:02

Pleasure to be here, Mike.

Michael Liben: 2:04

First off, tell me, is there a good working definition of faith because I'm not sure everyone is working off the same concept?

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 2:12

Well, I'm not sure if there is one simple definition of faith. But I will put out there that in the Jewish tradition, we actually have two different words that we use when we talk about faith. One of them is "emunah", and the other one is "bittachon" Emuanah is always translated as faith and bittachon is translated as faith or as trust. And I think that's really important, because it begins to point the, towards a certain direction of how we might think of faith. Bittachon, for me, is a sense that whatever however things may work out that I have the the faith, or the trust, that I will be able to handle it, that I will be able to weather the storm. That's an important aspect of faith, I think.

Rabbi Daniel Lieberman: 3:27

Well, I think that's true. And the truth is, we don't really ever know where we're headed, things are unfolding and changing all of the time. But I think having a faith enables us to have that structure that you were talking about; an ability to deal with whatever unfolds as it is unfolding.

Michael Liben: 3:47

Is faith transactional? Can you bargain with God in that way?

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 3:50

Well, I think we experience it that way. I think it's human nature to experience it that way. But I don't think it's the reality. And a good example may be to look in the Bible. In the Torah and the book of Genesis, we see an example of Jacob, who offers two classic prayers to God when he is in a crisis situation. The first one he is very young at the beginning of his journey. And the second when he was he is some 20 years older and literally on the way back from that same journey to his home. And the contrast of those two prayers, I think is instructive. Because in the first prayer, we see Jacob who is alone, running away from home, forced to run away because he saw his brother, wants to kill him and with good reason because Jacob has been deceitful with him and stole the blessing from their father that rightly belonged to Esau. He's running away for his for his life, and he is away from home for the first time in his life. And he goes to sleep that night with nothing but a rock to put under his head as a pillow. And that's when he has that famous dream of the ladder with angels, descending and ascending. And I'm not going to go into the importance of the ladder right now, that's not our direct interest. But what I want to point out is the prayer that he offers when he wakes up from this dream. His first reaction is, surely God was in this place and I didn't know, and a sense of awareness that the world is different than what he thought that the world is larger than what he then that he thought and that he is connected to the universe or to God, if we want to say God, in a way that he didn't know. But then comes the prayer, which kind of, I think it's kind of forgets that transcendence. And the prayer he offers is a transactional prayer, as you suggested, the prayer he offers is kind of,"Well, God, if you see me safely on my journey, and if you give me food, and if you give me clothing, and you'd be bringing me back again in safety, then you will be my God. And many of our commentators look at and say, This is very transactional prayer.

Michael Liben: 6:01

That there's another word for it that I can't use, it puts himself in a position where he can tell God what to do almost is it, I think, a loss of who's in charge there, you know, I'm saying.

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 6:14

Well, at the very least he's suggesting he's, you know, maybe not, you know, he, he's suggesting that this is what God wants to do, should do, if he wants him to accept him as his God. It's a little bit"chutzpah-dik". Or, or you could say that this is kind of classic of its foxhole theology, when we really feel threatened and we're at our wit's end, and we leave all our more sophisticated theology and sense of presence behind, then we fall into that,"Please, God, if you do this for me, then I will believe in you". So that's the first prayer he offers. But then we see the second prayer that he offers some 20 years later, which is in the follow following week's Torah portion. Where instead of that kind of a prayer, the prayer he offers begins with gratitude. He says, "ketonti micol chasidim" - I am small compared to all of the goodness that you've provided me, I left here with nothing but a staff in my hand, and I've come back with two huge camps, and with wives and children and possessions. And I don't deserve this.

Michael Liben: 7:28

I have to I have to break here for a second. Because first of all, we need to put this in context. He's coming back, and Esau's waiting for him, and he doesn't know what's coming.

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 7:37

home to, to, to to pay up as it were, to pay the piper.

Michael Liben: 7:52

But just to point out, I just want to point out that as far as his first transactional prayer went, God came through.

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 8:00

That's true, but he doesn't know if God will still come still come through now that it really counts. Now that he's really coming back to face what he did 20 years ago, maybe this is payback time. Maybe this is it. And after beginning with gratitude, he then says, "And I need your help". First comes the gratitude. And then after that"I need your help" is this interesting prayer. It's a very Jewish prayer. He says, "And remember, you were faithful to my father and my grandfather to Abraham and Isaac, you made promises to them. So for their sake, keep that promise with me".

Michael Liben: 8:46

Can faith function as a coping mechanism? What I mean is when when my daughter was dying, I, I sat there, but I didn't read texts and prayers to bring her back. I read texts and prayers, because I was in a place where my faith told me that things tend to work out the way they should, even if I don't like it. And whereas the rest of my family was telling me, "We're gonna bring her back, we're gonna pray, you'll see, you know, we have faith". And at one point, somebody in my family accused me of not having faith. And I said, "Well, no, I have buckets of faith, except that my faith says things work out the way they should. And your faith is leaning towards magic and I don't really know that that's going to help you". So how can faith work as a coping mechanism? And and how can we help other people get to that coping when they're when they're dealing with their own grief?

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 9:41

Well, there are a lot of things to unpack in what you just said, Mike. And the first thing I want to say is that I don't think I'm going to judge the quality of another person's faith. So if a person believes that through their prayers and through their intense relationship with God, God may choose to listen to her, and to change the decree as it were, who am I to say that that's not possible? Who am I to say that that's not, you know that that's not helping them in this moment? But it doesn't describe my faith, as I think it doesn't describe your faith. And and that's where I agree with you. I think that yes, faith, of course, is an important and necessary coping mechanism when we are in dire straits, when someone we love is on their deathbed or any number of things might be befalling us in the world. But, I suppose there are different ways that people understand that. For me, it's more in the sense that you describe. Things will unfold the way they need to unfold, which isn't the same thing as saying the way they're supposed to unfold, unfold if a child isn't supposed to die, but things do unfold the way they have to unfold in a way that we can change their course. In faith for me as it is for you, I believe, a coping mechanism in that first of all, it connects me. It grounds me. It reminds me that I'm not alone in the universe. I'm connected to the other people who are around me, I'm connected to a power that's much greater than me, I'm connected to God as a source of compassion, who will hold me and see me through this, even if I'm going to be sorely disappointed in the outcome. So yeah, I think faith is a coping mechanism, a necessary one, even for people who may not think about it much, to think of the question of faith much until a crisis occurs. And then they might find that it might be the simplistic faith of Jacob in the first dream; the foxhole kind of faith. It may be a mature one that comes out of years of gradual growth and practice. But faith will, you know, faith will be there for you in some way in the way that you needed in that moment.

Anna Jaworski: 12:21

You are listening to "Bereaved But Still Me". If you have a question or comment that you would like addressed on our program, please send an email to Michael Liben at michael@bereavedbutstillme.com. That's michael@bereavedbutstillme.com. This content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. The opinions expressed in the podcast are not those of Hearts Unite the Globe, but of the hosts and guests and are intended to spark discussion about issues pertaining to congenital heart disease or bereavement.

Michael Liben: 13:01

If you find yourself in a position of a transactional faith, where you ask for something, and you're not going to get it, are you setting yourself up for being hurt?

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 13:14

I don't know, if you're, I think that the hurt is going to come in any event, no matter what the the the nature of your faith, and your belief is we can't avoid the pain.

Michael Liben: 13:25

But we can prepare for it.

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 13:26

Yes, sometimes we can prepare, but even the best of preparation, life will catch us off guard, will take us by surprise, it's the nature of life. And I think that every one of us will find ourselves at one point or another, like that first Jacob on his first night away from home. It's not as if that the transition from a transactional faith to a different kind of accepting faith is a ladder that you climb, that you you know, I start at rung number one and that I end up and I get a gold star when I get to rung number five, I think there's a continuum. This we're describing a continuum of how we relate to God and what we need in our lives, and what our soul needs. And we will go back and forth like the ladder with angels going up and down and up and down. We will go up and down that ladder of faith.

Michael Liben: 14:20

Sure, sure.

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 14:21

Actually side by side, let's think of it as a continuum rather than a down and an up.

Michael Liben: 14:26

I you know, I accept that. I like that. I think that's that's probably a healthier look of it because nobody's faith is bad.

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 14:35

I just had one more thing too. Rabbi Harold Kushner used to, to tell the story that often he would walk into a home after, after a family had suffered a death. And people would say, "Why is God doing this to me?" or "Why did God allow this to happen?" You know, and Harold Kushner is such a well known theologian, they would expect some kind of a real answer. And Rabbi Kushner would always say, would always demure from that conversation, because he would say, not to that person, but to you and me right now, "When a person is in the midst of suffering, that's not a time to do theology". Let the theology come at another time when you're more stable at a different place in your life. But in the time, when you are suffering a loss, forget about that. Just accept the compassion that you can accept from the people around you and from God, and be compassionate with yourself, and just do what grief needs to do.

Michael Liben: 15:46

Well, I'm glad you brought that up, because that really goes straight into the next question. Traditions are often comfort during times of distress. And in this particular case, we're talking about loss. And last time you were here we talked about, we talked about Jewish traditions regarding loss and regarding bereavement. So if there's something there that will help us as it relates to faith?

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 16:12

That's a good question. I think there is, as you said, when we talked about how how we mourn in the Jewish tradition, it's very much about surrounding ourselves with community. It's about having people come to comfort us for a full week after the after there's been a death. And it's also about an ongoing in the months that follow an ongoing presence in the community through the the obligation having to say the Kaddish, as a mourner, the memorial prayer in the presence of others, when it's not, it's not good enough to stay home alone, in the midst of your grief, you need to get yourself up and go to a synagogue or another place where a service is being held, and say it in public, with people surrounding you. So I think that part of our faith we learned from that is that it's not only about the grieving process, but the the nature of our faith, is that our faith very much ties us to our people, that my relationship with God, as Dan, is not separate from my relationship with God, as part of the Jewish people. So I think that's an important piece of our faith. It's never completely individual. It's always tied both theologically and practically, through the way we pray, and the way we mourn and the way we celebrate through the community in Israel.

Michael Liben: 17:43

How are you, as a rabbi concerned with other people's faith? So when you are working perhaps, in our example, with a family and mourning, and you see faith wavering? I'm not sure what that means to see faith waiver. But if if you are fearful that maybe someone needs a boost in their faith, do you do go in and deal with that? What do you do for them?

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 18:05

Well, I think if and as with all things with people in mourning, you take your lead from them. If a person in mourning feels that they want to have a theological conversation or talk on any level about God, then then your role is to hear that and to help guide them through that in the way that they want to be guided, in a way that reminds me of spiritual direction. As a spiritual director, I'm not really directing the directee I'm really holding the space for the person who is coming into, bringing into, speech and thought and feeling their own religious journey. So I think it's that that's very much what happens, I think, in a house of mourning my role isn't to tell anybody, or to in a very directive way try to, quote unquote, bolster their faith, but merely to hold the space for them to begin to talk it out for themselves and to think it through for themselves.

Michael Liben: 19:06

Is this something that most people tend to talk about? I mean, I would think it is personally but you know, I'm projecting myself on that.

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 19:14

No, I find a lot of people, a lot of Jews, aren't used to talking about, about faith. It makes them uncomfortable. They like to speak about more concrete things, and even at a time of a loss. Many times it's something that they're they will, you know, it's like this: sometimes they will start and people will always start a conversation with me with the words rabbi, I'm not religious, but you have to pay attention to.

Michael Liben: 19:51

Always, always, always. As you probably are aware, not all, I would say, probably most of our listeners are not Jewish. But I believe that people can learn from other people's beliefs and faiths. Is there something in common that sort of ties us together with other faiths? Now you've worked in a lot of ecumenical situations, so you have an insight that perhaps I don't have?

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 20:17

Well, I think it should be clear to everybody that human beings are going to face the same existential crises in their lives. And therefore, although we use different language to talk about to talk about the transcendent, to talk about God, to talk about our connection, to however, we can see that the stories we tell about the the stories that guide us, that we've been raised with are different, but they're all going to answer, address these very basic needs. So in that sense, I don't, I don't know if there's anything specific that one religion has to teach another, but they all inform one another. They're all, they're all, when you get below the surface, they're all speaking the same language.

Michael Liben: 21:05

That's interesting. So you're saying, basically, that faith is a human, there's two ways to look at it. Faith is a human need, or faith is a human construct. And by that, I mean, not everybody is religious, so faith for them may not have a religious basis. And yet it's there for everybody. And so if I understand you correctly, think faith is something common to all people.

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 21:32

I think the need to feel connected in some way beyond ourselves, and to make sense of the world is common to most people. I think it's a pretty, we're pretty hard wired that way. And I think that whether people consider themselves to be religious or not, there are certain of these existential and theological questions that they will ask themselves at certain points in their lives. Absolutely. Absolutely. So but I don't think it belittles it to say that the way we talk about God or the way we understand our faith is a human construct, because everything, everything, as human beings, everything is a human construct, we, we have the capacity to develop language, and we have the capacity to develop stories. And this is a uniquely human capacity, this human storytelling capacity is what allows us to soar and to reach and to see and understand our lives in very, very significant ways. So that the that the stories are, in a sense human constructs, doesn't make them any less real or profound. So each tradition, each religious tradition might have its own separate set of stories, but all of them are, are, are equally profound in the way that they help us within our traditions, understand what's going on in our lives. The truth of what's going on in our lives.

HUG Info: 23:12

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Michael Liben: 23:54

Let's talk about Abraham for a minute. And what his faith meant to him. Maybe he's a better example not so much of faith but of trust. I personally have trouble with Isaac story as a bereaved parent and never really understood what we're supposed to learn from it. Of course, I'm talking about sacrificing Isaac.

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 24:11

I think there's so much we can say about that story to get to the heart of where you're going with it or where your problem with the story is, I think one way of understanding the story is that where we're seeing Abraham not being a blind automaton, offering up his son as a sacrifice because God says so. But actually we see, we're seeing Abraham as the same Abraham who challenged God a few chapters earlier over the Sodom and Gomorrah story and said,"Hashophet col ha'aretz lo ya'hse misphat" - will the judge of all the earth not do justice? How can you do this? You know, you're the God who's bringing love and justice into the world, and how could you even contemplate destroying the whole city? I don't think this is really a different Abraham, even though it looks like a different Abraham, I think this is Abraham, in his quiet walking with Isaac up towards the top of that mountain, pushing back to God. And it's really true when the text says that Abraham believed in God, in that episode, I think what he's saying what the text is saying is, he believed in the God who was the God of justice of all the earth, He knew that God wouldn't, wouldn't, wouldn't really ask him to offer his own son. And, and therefore, he when he's going up that mountain saying, I believe that this God is going to stop me. I believe that this God just wants to see if I understand how profound a God this is. But I know that he's not the guy who destroys children intentionally.

Michael Liben: 25:55

That's where I lose it. Because that's a lesson perhaps, that Abraham learns. But I don't think he needs to learn that from what you're saying. He already knows that. What am I supposed to learn from that?

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 26:06

Well, here's where I like to interpret this story in a different way. I see it this way, and here there is a lesson for all of us, and even is a lesson that has to do with loss. I think that what Abraham is being tested here, he's being given an experience, he's being a lesson he's - I don't want to interpret as a test, but in this"nisayon", which is sometimes translated, translated as a, as a test could also be, "he's being taught a lesson" And I think this is the lesson that Abraham is meant to learn. God brings Abraham to the very brink of a life without Isaac, even though Abraham has been promised that the future the Jewish people is through Isaac that the covenant is going to continue for generations and generations through this Isaac, and he brings him to the brink of there not being an Isaac at all, because he wants Abraham to learn something. And what he wants Abraham to learn is that even if there is no Isaac, the meaning of Abraham's life, is Abraham's life. And not vicariously through Isaac and through the future. Because Abraham had forgotten that, Abraham was so focused on the future, and on the fulfillment of the covenant with Isaac, that he forgot that the real meaning of our lives, is what we're doing right now, in this moment. Even if the worst happens, and our beloved is gone tomorrow, it doesn't wipe it out. And I think that's that's that's part of the lesson here is that in a book of Genesis in which the Jewish people are being told that the covenant is about the future, God wants to remind Abraham that the covenant, his covenant, is also about what's happening in this moment, even if there is no future, even if it never comes to be, Abraham is still Abraham, the blessings that he's given to the world is still the blessings that he's given to the world. The other way of understanding it is to look at it absolutely in the context and contrast with the other episode in Abraham's life that I mentioned, which is Abraham arguing back over Sodom and Gomorrah. So yeah, one instance, where Abraham has no problem talking back to God, no problem, challenging God's authority, or God's will, God's decision making. And then we have this other instance, where he seems to completely turn the opposite way. And can say "boo" to God, even when it concerns his own child. So here, I think looking at these two stories, in contrast, it's, there's something that we can take into our own lives, about knowing that there are moments when our relationship with God will seem very clear. And moments when we can, we will feel very justified and talking back. And then there are moments when we're just, it's gonna be, we will be dumbfounded in the way that Abraham was dumbfounded. We will not understand what is going on in this moment, and what God's role is in it. And that life is like, that life holds both of those moments.

Michael Liben: 29:25

Abraham did not lose his son at the end of the story. But Aaron, in the desert, lost two sons. And his answer was silence. He was dumbfounded what you said. Are the stories related?

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 29:38

It's very interesting that you bring that up in the context of Abraham because I hadn't thought about this but just as there's the same kind of polarity between Abraham in the Sodom and Gomorrah story and Abraham in the biding of Isaac's story, we have a similar kind of polarity with with Aaron where at one point you have Aaron at the In that horrible moment where two of these kids have just been killed for some ritual offense, it's hard to even understand even the Bible is unclear about exactly what happened in that moment. And then you have the Aaron, who only a couple of chapters earlier, really only verses earlier, is invested and appointed as the most important person in the religion of Israel now. More important to even than Moses, because it is Aaron who is going to be and is progenitor, his children are going to be in charge of offering sacrifices, of creating this relationship between God and the Jewish people of atonement and forgiveness in very important ways. So you have this real high, where he understands exactly who he is -"I'm Aaron, I'm the high priest, I'm the guy who has been appointed by God to be in charge, the most important religious person here". And then Aaron, that same Aaron who only verses, what is verses later, is bereft of his two eldest sons and can't possibly understand why, and can only react in dumbfounded silence. So there is that same, also that same kind of dichotomy. of, of that we often will feel in life, there are moments when we will feel proud and clear and, and, and in charge, and moments where we will feel completely completely ruthless and at loss, and that life is, is going to hold those. You can even be Aaron, the high priest, and you will still suffer the same kind of grief, their religion won't protect even you; justice, religion didn't protect even even Abraham from going through terrible crisis.

Michael Liben: 31:43

Let's close this. Most of us, in our lives do not rise to the level, neither of Abraham nor Aaron. So what is the role of faith in society? How do we relate to faith daily? Or do we?

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 32:00

Well, I think that's a really important question to ask, particularly now, when the world is still in the midst of this awful pandemic, that has shaken our sense of what's normal from day to day. So I think it's really really important for us to say, yeah, faith is what is is the capacity to hold what is unfolding all around us to withstand the the fact that we don't know what's happening next. And also that faith is what gives us a connection or rootedness to something greater than ourselves that helps us to withstand the not knowing because we are living in a moment right now of tremendous not knowing.

Michael Liben: 32:51

Rabbi Daniel Liben, even thank you so much for joining us on "Bereaved But Still Me". It's always a pleasure to hear and get some of your insights into the world. You're always fascinating for us.

Rabbi Daniel Liben: 33:01

Well, thanks for inviting me, Mike, I always appreciate having these conversations, and look forward to having another one again in the future.

Michael Liben: 33:09

Oh, I hope so. I hope we can make a mini series of faith in different religions. But that concludes this episode of "Bereaved But Still Me", the podcast formerly known as "Heart to Heart With Michael". Again, I want to thank Rabbi Daniel Liben for sharing with us and hope that what he has shared has brought some comfort to those who are listening. If you enjoyed this program, I'd like to invite you to be a patron. For a monthly pledge you can join us and continue to provide free programming to the grief community. Just visit www.patreon.com/hearttoheart. Please join us at the beginning of every month for a new podcast. And until then, please remember that moving forward is not moving away.

Anna Jaworski: 33:46

Thank you for joining us. We hope you have felt supported in your grief journey. "Bereaved But Still Me" is a monthly podcast, and a new episode is released on the first Thursday of each month. You can hear our podcast anywhere you normally listen to podcasts at any time. Join us again next month for a brand new episode of"Bereaved But Still Me".