The Curious Professor - Exploring the Psychology of Wonder: Curiosity is my superpower - Dr B

In this episode, I’m joined by Dr. Karen M. Bryson — aka Dr. B — a USA TODAY bestselling author, university professor, and the host of The Curious Professor podcast. With a Ph.D. in Human Science, Karen is a renowned expert in storytelling, curiosity, personal development, and lifelong learning. She is a true curator of curiosities who uncovers fascinating stories in unusual places. On her podcast, she invites listeners on a journey of discovery, exploring intriguing people, places, artifacts, and natural wonders that spark curiosity and inspire creativity. Her mission is to inspire courageous curiosity, a sense of wonder, and a love of learning in others.

Karen has authored over 50 books, with decades of experience in writing fiction and nonfiction. She now provides a platform for others to share their stories, emphasizing the power of storytelling to create personal growth and transformation.

In our inspiring conversation, Karen shares her journey of personal growth, education, and professional success—from spending Saturdays exploring libraries as a curious child to becoming a university professor, author, and podcast host. We discuss the importance of curiosity as a key driver for self-discovery, creativity, and mindset development. Karen also reflects on how continuous learning and embracing curiosity fuel emotional intelligence and resilience throughout life. Plus, she shares a powerful question that challenges listeners to rethink their identity and potential.

If you’re interested in personal development, storytelling, curiosity, education, creativity, and lifelong learning, this episode is packed with valuable insights and inspiration. Don’t miss out—check out The Curious Professor podcast at thecuriousprofessorpodcast.com. All details are in the show notes.

Tune in to explore wonder, discovery, and how stories can transform your life and mindset.

Connect to Karen on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter and YouTube. 

Guest: Dr. Karen M. Bryson
Host: Urmi Raval
Sound Editor: Maja Pronko

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Eternal Paradigm. Together, we're uncovering human experience by exploring physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual stories. With me, your host, Ermi Ravel. Hello, welcome to this episode of Eternal Paradigm. I hope you're enjoying your journey to find you. I have no idea right now if you can hear all of the background noise that's going on around me. If you can't, then that's okay. I can give you a little snapshot of what it is. So we're heading into the summer holidays and I am pretty sure that recording has just come through. The kids are all out playing football, which is great, which also means they're all occupied. They're all doing something active. They're all having a lot of fun, but they're also very noisy. I've been recording most of my podcast conversations in the evening or in daytimes when the kids are at school. Things are now changing, so you may hear them in the background. I'll give you a little heads up on what today's episode is about. But before I do that, just a quick reminder. Head over to Eternal Paradigm Podcast on Instagram. I have an amazing community there. There's the Facebook page and there's the Facebook group. And again, I am going to put my hands up. I haven't been totally active in the Facebook group, but that's okay because if you join the community, it's an open group. Feel free to share. We're going to move on. So there are a few things in the pipeline for the podcast. We are nearing the end of this series. I have flipped things around a little bit. So we are still on series one. And while series one has been airing, we also had series two, which was the transformation series in January. And then we had series three, which was the creativity series, which was absolutely incredible. We're going to be heading into rounding off this series. And I'm really, really excited because it is now heading into August. when this episode will go live. And very soon, not very long to go now, it will be a year since Eternal Paradigm was launched. And it's only when I was talking to my guest in this episode that she pointed this out to me. And it was quite a surprise, actually. It was like this realization that I hadn't even thought about that a year will almost go by. But it's all here now. to carry on. Lots of exciting new things happening. So as I mentioned in a previous episode, I have got an event that I am going to be running and more details about this are to be shared very soon. It's the Inner Child Exploration. That's the first thing. The second thing is the Eternal Paradigm Podcast rebrand that is definitely in the pipeline. The website you will see has shifted over. However, I am still in the process of putting together all of the guest profiles. That is something I'm really looking forward to. What else has been happening, guys? What else has been happening? Tell me. talk to me. I always love hearing from you. It was actually quite interesting because I had a conversation with someone and they were just telling me that they're not too sure that human experience is all that it's cut out to be. I thought that was quite an interesting thing to say because obviously interesting is my favorite word, firstly. And secondly, because I I just became really curious about what their experience was about. But I couldn't really ask that question in too much detail. I don't think they would have been very welcoming to me probing. So I didn't. I just smiled and let it go. But you know what? It's really niggling at me. You know when you have those things that just niggle at you because someone said something and you're like, but why are you saying that? Why? What's made you do that? And then you kind of have to let it go. How do you make peace with that? I am one of those people that actually struggles with it. I'm now going to head on over and introduce you to my guest in this week's episode. So in this episode, I have been joined by Dr. Karen M. Bryson, or Dr. B. as she's known. She's a university professor, a podcaster, an author. And in this conversation, we talk a lot. Karen is an avid traveler. Curiosity is her superpower and she's devoted life to stories. And as you listen to the conversation and in the questions that I'm asking and what comes up, you'll kind of hear more about what things have been like for Karen and her curiosity, where it started from and how she's had this Because, you know, curiosity has her superpower from such a young age, which is why she is the host of the Curious Professor podcast. And you'll hear as she's speaking as to how all of this came about in her journey. I would ask you to check out her podcast. head on over to thecuriousprofessorpodcast.com. More details in the show notes too. And I'm really, really excited because the question that Karen asks as well is a mind-blowing question. I mean, it really does totally get me. It's like the best question if you ask me. I absolutely love it. Obviously, you have to wait till we get to the end of the episode to hear what the question is. I'm going to leave you to listen to this episode. I hope you'll continue to enjoy your journey to find you and stay true to you.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

To say who am I is such a big question. I'm not sure. I feel like I'm still in a process of discovering who I am. It constantly changes as I grow as a person. So who am I is a big question that I'm still trying to figure out.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Yeah. So if we kind of, let's narrow it down, what things do you know?

SPEAKER_00 6:49

I'll start with some of the things that I'm doing right now, because I feel like I've done a lot of things. But right now I am working as a university professor. That's what I do for my day job. I am a professor of psychology and human services. I am also a podcaster. I'm the host of the Curious Professor podcast. That's how we met. You and I met in a podcasting workshop, which was awesome. I am also a USA Today bestselling author. I'm the author of over 50 books now. So I am writing a lot. I'm always writing. That's one of the main things that I do in my free time when I'm not teaching at the university and now when I'm not podcasting. So those are some of the things I do. And what do I know? That's a more interesting question. Like, who are you? What you know? What you know seems to change too as you learn more. Like, sometimes you don't realize what you don't know. And that's an even bigger question. Like, what don't you know? And what do you still need to find out? As I approach middle age, I'm like, kind of in a frenzy almost to... learn more and to grow more because I feel like okay if I'm really at the halfway point and I've only got the last half left hopefully it's another half you never know what your life is going to be or what the time span that you've been allotted but hopefully I have another half so what am I going to learn in that last half or that final chapter in my life what are those things I'm going to explore those are big questions. And they seem to change as I explore more. As you get into things that you find interesting, you're like, wow, that's a topic that I could explore for a while. There are some things that you explore and you're like, okay, I think I've learned enough about that particular thing. Let me move on to something else. And then there are other things you're like, wow, I could investigate this and learn about this and explore this for a while.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

Gosh, there is so much there in what you just said, so much. And I resonate with so much of that as well, because it is, it's like, it's like the sea, it's so vast. It's like the sky, it's never ending, right? Yes. Let me ask you, take us back to where your curiosity started, because right now, you mentioned, you know, that you're a podcaster, and then you've also got books, there's like 50 books, and you're a professor. So there's just in that, there's so much.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

So I'm one of those kids who loved school and I never wanted to leave, which explains how I ended up becoming a professor, right? Because professors just stay in school indefinitely. Granted, we're on the other side of the desk, so to speak, but we're still in school. We still get to be in that environment pretty much for the rest of our lives. So for those of us who are those weird kids who, I don't know in the UK growing up if you had like school skip days, but In the U.S., it's a popular thing, particularly in high school, and the last year of high school for us is called our senior year of high school. And seniors like to have this... Right. I did not go on senior skip day. There was like three of us who wanted to stay in school that day rather than go to the beach or where the kids went. But I was like, oh, heck no. I want to stay in school. I might miss something important. Like I wanted to learn. I wasn't that interested in going to the beach. Of course, now I like going to the beach, but there are times when I'd rather go to a museum or Yeah. Yeah, I think I went off on a tangent there, but... Oh, I love tangents. I was one of those kids who really, really wanted to learn. And so I've always been that way. I've always been curious and I've always been interested in what can I learn? I was also one of those kids who my mom dropped me off at the library. That was my Saturday thing. For as long as I can remember, junior high and high school, you know, when it was... Of course, this is back in the 80s, right, when it was still safe to leave kids, even though I wasn't that young of a kid, maybe 12, 13. But my parents would have no issue with just dropping me off and leaving me there for the whole day and then come pick me up at 5 p.m. when the library closed. But I would literally start at the very beginning. I would get there right when the library opened. I would start at the beginning of the Dewey Decimal System. with the, you know, 000, 01 or whatever it was, and just go through every book in the library, because I had the entire day. It was like the most exciting thing. And I'd go through every book and every topic. And so I would see every subject that was in the fiction and nonfiction sections. I just go through the entire library from the start of the Dewey Decimal System all the way to the end, 999.999, whatever it is. I don't know. I'm not a librarian, but from what I can remember, I think that's how it went. But I just look at every book. And then whatever topics interested me that day, I'd pull the book out and either read it there or skim it or see what I wanted to learn from that book or take it with me. Of but I always hit my limit. But I would just learn what I wanted to learn from the books that were there or what I could that day, and then take some home with me if I wanted to do more of a deep dive into whatever those subjects were that interested me that particular week. So that was my big Saturday adventure, going to the library. And then of course, you know, Here in the US, that was a point at time where we had malls, like shopping malls still exist. The big indoor shopping mall was a big thing, particularly for teenagers. Of course, most of the teenagers were going to the movie theater and going on dates. But I was like, oh my gosh, the best thing in the mall for me was at that time Walden Books. That was the big thing. Walden Books had just opened in the big malls. And I was like, this is fantastic. I don't have to ever return this book. I can just go and And buy it and it's mine forever. That was the most exciting thing to me to be able to, you know, I think my mom took us to the mall starting when we were like nine or 10, maybe 11. And we'd have the whole day and I'd be holed up in that Walden's books trying to decide with my$10 or whatever it was that she gave us to spend. what I was going to buy and take home, and it would be mine forever. It was so exciting to me to be in a Walden's. Walden's doesn't really exist, I don't think, anymore, but still, we have Barnes& Noble. That's still an exciting venture for me pre-pandemic. My husband knows not to go anywhere near. Here in my area where I live, in the greater Phoenix area, in Santan, which is a outdoor shopping area. There's a two-story Barnes and Noble. My husband will not go any, he'll never drive anywhere near there because he knows I'll make

SPEAKER_01 14:36

him pull over,

SPEAKER_00 14:38

drop me

SPEAKER_01 14:38

off there. Yeah, I was going to

SPEAKER_00 14:40

say, do you

SPEAKER_01 14:40

actually come out? Oh, that's incredible. See, there's so much. And again, in what you're saying, in your experience of growing up and being in the library and just having this real kind of sense of curiosity where you could spend the whole day in the library and then in a bookstore, it's incredible. That feeling, that curiosity, that sense of being immersed in something, learning and expanding every time. And that's still so true to who you are, that it's just followed you through. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00 15:16

and it's amazing to me because I was actually unknowingly setting myself up to do a dissertation because that's what it requires, an intense focus on a very particular area of study for a long period of time. When I was doing my dissertation for my doctorate, gosh, it was probably a year and a half every weekend for... 10 to 15 hours, I would hole up every single weekend because I was working full time at that time. And every Saturday and every Sunday, like eight hours on Saturday, eight hours on Sunday, I would just be holed up working on my dissertation. And that That lasted a year and a half. My poor husband, I'm so grateful to him for picking up the slack of our family during that period of time to enable me to do that. Of course, he got even a few years later when he did his dissertation. But, you know, fair is fair. So are you both professors? My husband is not a professor full time. He does teach part time on an adjunct basis at a number of universities. So he does that part time, but his career is in IT security. Very different to psychology. Yeah, but he actually has his doctorate in psychology. Oh, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

What happened? How did you become interested in psychology? What was that point? What was the driver, the decider?

SPEAKER_00 16:44

That's a great question. And I think learning about human nature and why people are the way they are and why people choose to do the things that they do really always fascinated me. And it still does, which is kind of one of the motivating factors for me and my podcast, The Curious Professor, because I interview people about the things that they do and what things are important to them and why they're doing the things that they're doing and What's interesting about that to them? So it's always, again, another theme that is carried throughout my life. And oddly, although I'm a professor of psychology and human services, for the most part now, I am teaching classes in general liberal arts. So I'm teaching students about more broad topics in the liberal arts, which I enjoy too, and is very in line with just me and my general interest in all of the liberal arts. I don't like to confine myself, although my area of interest when I did my dissertation early in my career was more in the psychology and human services, but I've broadened that perspective a little in my teaching, which I I love, I enjoy what I'm doing at the university.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

That sounds incredible. When you're talking, when you mean liberal arts, break that down a little bit more. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 18:11

At the university I teach, we conceptualize the liberal arts in four areas. So when we're working with our students, we're asking them to reflect on learning that they've had previously and during their college career, and also learning areas that they'd like to expand on in the future in four, what we call liberal arts breath areas. And those are art expression is one area. So you're talking about all of the arts. So music, dance, fine arts, theater, that type of thing, even poetry, creative writing would all be in the arts expression area. Then we have science description, which is all of your hard sciences areas. Chemistry, biology, even things like anthropology, maybe aspects of it, and the math and computers and data science and those types of things are all in your science description category. Then we have another area that's called social civic. Thank you so much. theoretically could be placed in one of those four breadth areas.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Wow. And that's still incredibly fast in terms of the coverage of the subjects. Yes, it is. That's incredible. Do you sway towards certain topics in liberal arts or are you kind of an all-rounder?

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Well, yeah. When I'm teaching, we have two general liberal arts classes that we teach. The very first class that our students take and the very last class Sort of. I mean, they do sway from that a little bit. But in general, the very first class they take, we have a class where they reflect on their previous learning in those liberal arts breadth areas. And we're basically teaching them how to do research, how to write, how to critically think, those types of things in that class. The last class that we have, we're asking them to reflect on those liberal arts breadth areas from a global perspective and to investigate global issues. different cultures, that type of thing. So the first class, they're inwardly reflecting on those liberal arts breadth areas, and then we're asking them in the last class to go more outside of themselves and reflect on a more global scale within the community themselves as a person in, you know, a member of the world community and think about the breadth areas from that more broad perspective. So... Yeah, it is quite a large thing that we're asking them to do. But in terms of the things that resonate with me, probably more as a person, I would say I'm definitely more geared toward art and expression. Obviously, I'm a writer. I'm very interested in all of the arts. I have been since I was young. I was really involved in theater. when I was a kid. I love music and I've tried desperately to sing and dance and play instruments. I have very limited talent in those areas as much as I enjoy those aspects of the arts, but Yeah, I've dabbled in a lot of the arts. I'm terrible at most of them, but I think I'm a fairly decent writer, but I do love all of the arts. I would say my weakest area is probably science and description, although I do love science. I love astronomy. I love biology. I mean, I enjoy science a lot. I'm not really talented in that area. It was a struggle for me. The sciences were the most difficult subjects for me when I was particularly in high school. I really didn't do well. Physics, I still don't understand physics at all. Chemistry was a struggle for me. I like learning about science. Science topics are fascinating to me, but I couldn't have a career in any of the sciences. It would be ridiculous. That's not my area of expertise or talent. Yeah, yeah. I hear what you're saying. I totally hear you. Social civic, obviously, I'm a psychology professor. So that's an area of strength for me. I've always liked sociology, psychology, history. I'm a huge history buff. Love history. You could drop me off at any museum anywhere in the world and I could stay there for days. My husband and I and some of our friends were in Washington, D.C. a couple of years ago. And I don't know how familiar you are with Washington, but there are great museums like the Smithsonian, for example, is a vast, huge museum. array of many museums that are all put together in Washington. But there was a museum there called the Spy Museum, which I absolutely adored. I mean, it was one of the most fascinating places I've been. And it was a combination of a lot of different things like history and culture and even psychology was represented at that museum. When you think about spies, obviously, you know, it's a wide, vast array of different areas. There was even a science museum technology, some of the equipment that spies used throughout history. It was a very interesting museum. It was a multi-floor museum. If you can imagine me and my husband and two other people going to this museum, of course, they just raced ahead of me. I was maybe in the first room and they were already on the third floor of the thing. I felt bad because I had spent about two and a half hours there and they were getting ready to leave like they were in the gift shop and they're like okay you know we're getting ready to leave it and fair enough it was two and a half hours that was quite a long time to be in a museum but I wasn't even halfway done and I'm like you know I could stay here easily another Well, easily another two and a half because I was not even halfway done, but definitely another three. But I didn't want them sitting there in the gift shop for three hours waiting for me. So one of the disappointments in my lifetime is only seeing half of the Spy Museum in Washington.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

So that's still on your hit list to get to the Spy Museum. Oh, gosh. You know, I totally, again, yes, museums, art galleries. And again, that's something that's been with you from a very young age. And when you speak about the teaching and learning that you're doing with the students, I really would like to talk about the global perspective that you kind of bring to the students and asking them to think about it. Because at what point, when did that global shift happen for you in your life?

SPEAKER_00 25:19

So I am very fortunate that I come from a family who love to travel, particularly my mom. My mom was dragging us. I'm trying to think how old we were the first time that we went to Europe. Gosh, I was maybe 15. I think I was 15. I mean, we were traveling internationally really young, and we were traveling around the United States even younger than that. So I come from a family where we prioritize travel. I really appreciate that because it gave me a real different perspective than a a lot of my classmates and peers who didn't have an opportunity to do that at a I would become an exchange student, and I became an exchange student to Japan. I lived for a summer there between my junior and senior year of high school, so the third and fourth year of high school. I lived in Japan as an exchange student. It was a fantastic experience, not just because I was immersed in another culture and just really learned about other people. So you learn that other people are different because of the culture in which they live and are raised, but also how much you're alike despite the fact that you come from different cultures. So it's interesting that you see the differences that we can appreciate the variety of cultures that we have in the world, but also that we're all human beings and we have those similar types of experiences as a result of being human. So I think it's interesting and I like to share that with my students because the university that I work for, we have quite a number of students who come from what I would call, I hate to use that word, but quote, disadvantaged backgrounds. So most of them have not had an experience to do much traveling and definitely not traveling outside of the United States unless they've been in the military. So a lot of people whose experience has been limited to traveling Many times the town in which they grew up, or at the very least the state in which they grew up, the United States in itself is vast. So even if you don't have the opportunity to travel around the United States to broaden your perspective, you have a very limited view of the world just based on the town in which you grew up or even the state in which you grew up. It really doesn't give you a perspective of other people's ideas and values and values. the differences in their culture.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Yeah, that's the thing, like you say, is because America is so vast, you can go from one state to another and experience a big difference in kind of the cultural melting pot and all of the differences. It's actually quite different to us here in Europe because we're so used to traveling because everything's close by, smaller. Although having said that, and we have this thing where I'm kind of based in the South, and as soon as you go further up, the accents change. So I have a television newsreader accent, some people would say, others would not, whereas the different accents and the regionalities is all part of an experience. When you kind of use that word and you don't like using the word disadvantage, what's your take on that? Because is disadvantage... just about having a less than experience than everyone else? Or how does that word, I don't know, what does it mean to you? Because you said you don't like using it.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Well, in higher education, it's a word that's used to describe students who maybe have financial disadvantages, so may require substantial assistance to be able to afford to go to school. So In terms of financial aid, we'll talk about students who may come from, again, the word disadvantaged backgrounds. So we may need to work with them to be able to figure out a plan to be able to afford school because they don't come from a wealthy background where their parents can put out$30,000 or$50,000 for tuition for a year or two years or whatever the cost is going to be. So what's the plan to figure out how you're going to be able to afford a higher education? Because in the United States, it's expensive. Higher education, it can be cost prohibitive for people who don't come from wealthy backgrounds. So that's one aspect of it. Another aspect when they talk about, quote, disadvantaged students are people who come from what they call first generation backgrounds. So if you come from a situation, which a lot of our students do, where no one in your family has ever earned a college degree, you may not know the ins and outs of what the college experience is. If you come from a family where everyone in your family went to Harvard for the past five or six generations, and then you go to Harvard, well, you're already indoctrinated into that culture. You know what Harvard is. All your family went to Harvard. You've probably visited the campus many times. You probably already know a lot of the people who are friends with your grandfather or your father or your mother. That's a much different situation than if your family are recent immigrants. You know, you may be the only person in your family who speaks English and no one in your family may have finished high school even. And you're the first person in your family to finish high school. No one in your family can give you advice about what it means to go to college and be a college student. So that puts you at a, quote, disadvantage when it comes to succeeding in higher education. So that's where that word comes from.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

I totally hear what you're saying. And it almost feels like, as you're saying that, it becomes even more of a responsibility to not only to help, but to have a wider kind of civic responsibility, but really to educate and use education as a real vehicle for expansion.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Exactly. So in the global issues class, for example, I have... Yeah. Here's also some articles that I found that talk about some of the interesting aspects of the Icelandic culture. Here's a really cool article that I found that you might want to read about some anthropologists that found about female Vikings that they didn't realize existed. So I can personalize my experience that I had in that culture and also bring in some scholarly resources of things that they can read or current events that are happening. Oh, did you know? you know, one of the volcanoes just erupted in Iceland within the last six months, right? So here, let's talk about that. You know, I actually stood right there where that has, it wasn't active then, but now it's like flowing with lava. And I was actually standing there a few years ago. Now it's filled with lava. So, you know, I can personalize it and bring in my experience and also, you give them the scholarly aspect and the current events of that community, that culture, that country.

SPEAKER_01 33:17

Yeah. And that's incredible because you're able to really, really, I kind of see it almost as a holistic way of being able to teach and connect people to what's possible beyond where they are.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Yeah, exactly. And one of the words that are phrases that students use a lot when they talk about my classes eye-opening.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

Oh, wow. Incredible.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Yeah, this class was really eye-opening. I love that because that's what I'm trying to do. That's one of my goals. I want to open them to broaden their perspective and to also motivate them to want to be curious and to explore. And that's what actually gave me the idea for my podcast was because after that global issues class, a lot of my students Because every week I bring in current events, I bring in articles about different countries and different cultures and different ideas and just things I want them to think about and experience and want to learn more about. And after the term, or as we're getting close to the end of the term, students will say, what am I going to do after I don't have this class anymore and you're not finding me articles or things to learn about anymore? And I was like, maybe I should just continue what I'm doing with my curious professor and start a podcast. So that's what I've been doing with my podcast and with the things that I post on social media, in my Facebook group and on Instagram, just giving people those types of things to be curious about. Did you know, and I'll talk about something that they can explore further that they might not know about. I'm going to do one this week, interesting things about bats because a lot of people don't know about bats and there's a lot of really cool things about bats. So just stuff like that, that people might want a little bite-sized piece of information and that might satisfy their curiosity or they might think, gosh, I didn't know that. I want to learn more about bats. And then they'll do their own research or maybe even want to visit those great caves here in the US where you can actually go caving and visit bats and see them in their natural habitat.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

That's so cool. That's incredible. I'm going to ask you, I'm going to flip it on its head because I can hear that you're really able to share so much of your experience with the students and in terms of what they're getting. But when we talk about learning personal kind of journeys and learning your own expansion journey, I guess. What have you learned from teaching the students?

SPEAKER_00 35:50

Oh, wow. That's a great question. I feel like I learn so much all the time because my students have such different experiences than the experiences I've had. Like I say, I live in Arizona, so I have a lot of students who are either from Mexico or have parents from Mexico or generationally from Mexican descent. I learn a lot about Mexican culture, what it's like to be an immigrant from Mexico, all kinds of aspects about that, that obviously I'm not. I'm a white woman from New Jersey. So learning about my students and their experiences, and they're so different from the things that I've experienced in my life. That's just one example of I have students, most of my students, I don't have children. I've not had the experience of being a parent. Most of my students have kids and have a number of kids, which is great because we do need to repopulate the earth and I'm not doing my share of repopulation. So, you know, it's great that they're having kids and fulfilling that responsibility, but it becomes more challenging for them as students. So really for me, learning, not just about what that experience is, but also learning empathy and grace. Because for me, I can do what I want pretty much when I want. My husband's self-sufficient for the most part. He doesn't require a lot of care. I do have a dog. I have a bloodhound, but she's good and she doesn't require a lot of... She's old now. It's not like she's a puppy. So it's not like I have a lot of responsibility outside of myself. So for me to think about I have a student here who I admire so much because not only is she working full-time in a challenging profession, like, for example, we have a lot of students who are nurses. So here's a student who's working full-time as a nurse in an extremely challenging profession, particularly in the days of COVID, obviously. Not only that, but she has a young family. She's raising three kids now. Maybe even on her own and trying to balance a demanding profession and raising children and going to school full time. I can't even imagine what that's like. So it forces me to think about what are those things that she's going through or he's going through? You know, we have men and women who are in all kinds of situations. So. you know, what are they going through? What is their experience? And how can I be supportive and also have empathy for that experience or sometimes sympathy? Obviously, I can't put myself in their shoes of raising kids, but I certainly knew what it was like to go to school because I was doing my doctorate when I was working full time. So I empathize with that, but definitely have sympathy for, you know, somebody saying, all three of my kids have COVID and I'm dealing with COVID because I'm a nurse and I'm trying to balance taking care of my family and dealing with my patients. And, you know, I might not get my paper in until tomorrow. Is that okay? Well, yeah, I think, I think it's okay if your entire household is sick, you know, and I, you know, I have students who are dealing with a lot of issues lately. I don't know how it is in, in the UK where you are, but, Here in the U.S., we just have a terrible, terrible opiate crisis. So I have a lot of students, not students who are dealing with it themselves, I don't think, none that have said that to me anyway, but certainly they have family members, siblings, and in some cases, because we have older adult, mature adult students who are in our classes who have kids that are dealing, because their kids are teenagers or young adults, and they're dealing with the opiate crisis. It's really, really challenging. I had a student who said she was the only, she had come from a small town and she said she was one of the only people in the entire town who wasn't addicted to opioids. And I was like, oh my gosh, wow. Not only how does that feel, but what is that like to have a whole town in the US that's addicted to opioids? I mean, it's terrible and it's heartbreaking that we have so many people dealing with that issue.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

You're learning from these incredible people. They're incredibly powerful, humbling human lessons to be able to learn. Compassion, grace, empathy, and sympathy. It's not even like they're lessons. They're just incredibly powerful human kind of connectors. You were talking about essentially we're all the same. And when it comes down to us being all the same, Being able to be compassionate and show others grace and be sympathetic and empathetic to their experience is one of the most powerful things that you can actually do. But for some people, it's not possible. And for others like yourself, you're in this situation where you're able to do that, really.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

Yeah, and it is a learning curve for a lot of professors. One of the things that I do is that I train and mentor new, younger, or less experienced professors who are coming in starting at our university. It's difficult because they're trying to balance what they should be, quote, should be doing. So if you're coming in and you're a new professor, you want to shine and be a star and do everything that you're supposed to be doing. So to balance that with the quote rules, things are due at a certain day and we have a certain policy for late assignments. And so to balance doing all those things that you're supposed to be doing, particularly when you're new and you want to be doing the best that you can to show that you're a good instructor with being able to give students a little bit of leeway because they're having issues and maybe even be in crisis. I have had more than a few students tell me they were considering killing themselves. And to be in that position, I'm not going to tell a student who confides in me with that, oh, and by the way, I'm giving you an F because you turned your paper in late. I mean, that's just ridiculous, right? So, you know, you have to balance those two things with you being caring and passionate and also being There are deadlines and things that they have to meet as a student, but there's a way in which you can be compassionate and still maintain that level of... That professionalism. Yeah, the professionalism. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

It's so hard because I can see on both sides, like you said, even as an experienced professor, as a new teacher, stepping into this, balancing all of that and being... Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

Yeah, and putting yourself in other people's shoes is easier for some people than it is for others. Some people don't have that ability or that ability is limited. At least that's been my experience in talking with other people and working with other people. Some people have a limited capacity to communicate. Oh, that is incredibly powerful. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Really, really amazing. I have a couple more questions if you don't mind me asking. Oh, sure. Cool. I'm really interested. Tell us, because you've written over, what, 50 books. You're a best-selling author. Give us a little bit of a roundup on what the writing has been about.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

Oh, my gosh. How much more time do you have? No, just

SPEAKER_01 44:23

kidding. I have time.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

So that's been a journey unto itself, right? Yes. Yes. by the time I was five, I knew I wanted to write and I made my mom help me write my first book when I was five. So it was quite obvious to me, but it was round. I took a really roundabout route because when I was in high school, really junior high and high school. I didn't write as much because that's a time when you want to be more social, obviously. You have raging hormones and every other thing. Your peers are important when you're in junior high and high school. So I was more involved in theater then and acting and being in plays and all that stuff. So I wasn't writing as much when I was an adolescent. But then toward my... younger adult age, I guess you could say. And I was really doing some acting in community theater and even dabbled in some movies and TV and stuff as an actor. It got to a point where I had to really get serious about a career because you can't rely on your parents forever. You have to start supporting yourself when you're in your 20s. So I had to get an apartment and do all those things that you have to do when You start on your own out of the nest. So I couldn't really be involved in theater as much as I wanted to anymore because I had a career. So I decided that I was trying to write for theater. So I started out writing plays and I did pretty well. Like I had a number of productions for my stage plays, but it's not very financially rewarding. As rewarding as it is to see people produce your plays, I mean, it's phenomenal. It's a great feeling. And the thing about theater is that you write something and you have a vision for it in your mind. But then when it's performed, it's completely different because other people are taking it. A director takes it and interprets it. It's like when you're playing that. I don't know if you played it in the UK, but here in the US we had this thing called phone. I don't know. I think it was called phone call or something. It's a row of kids and you start at one end and you whisper something and each person whispered like you start with one sentence and each person whispers a sentence. And by the time it gets to the end of this like 30 kid line, the sentence has completely changed. It's a totally different sentence.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

Yes. In the UK, we've called that Chinese whispers for some reason.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

Yeah. I have no idea. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

There we go.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

Same game. So theater is kind of like that. So you have a vision of something when you write a play, but then a director takes it and interprets it his or her own way or their own way. And then it's, Actors will take the script and do the same thing. So from what you wrote through the director and through the actors, what it comes out on the other end, when you're sitting in an audience, you're like, whoa, did I write that? This is really good, but it really has nothing to do with you. It was probably decent when, well, I can speak for myself. When I wrote it, it was decent. But by the time the director put their magic dust on it and then the actors did their thing, it's like, wow. wow, these talented people made me look really good. Like my name's on that, but it was really a combination of everybody's magic creating this thing that was much bigger than any one person, right? The sum of the parts is bigger than the parts type of a thing. So that's the magic of theater. And it was amazing, but I didn't make any money writing plays. So, well, I made a little bit of money. I shouldn't say I didn't make any. I made a little bit, but I mean, enough to go out to dinner to a nice restaurant. So I said, what can I do that I'm going to make more money? So I decided I was going to start writing screenplays, which is great. And I've had screenplays optioned and I even sold a screenplay. Nothing's been made yet. So I made a little bit of money, but I don't have anything produced yet. But it it was not as rewarding because unless you have it produced, there's nothing there, but a script, right? No one's ever going to see it because the screenplay is nothing until it becomes a movie. So that wasn't very satisfying to me as a writer. So I said, what can I do? That'll be more satisfying. And of course, you know, I've been an avid reader since I was four. So I'm like, why am I not writing books? This is ridiculous. So yeah, What year was it I started writing books? 2000, I think. I started a little bit dabbling. I had to take classes because I didn't really know what I was doing. So I studied a lot. I did a lot, a lot, a lot of studying and working with mentors and taking writing classes and reading, reading even more. And that was really bad. Of course, when you start anything new, you think, I think most people think, because they can read that they're going to be good writers and it doesn't really work that way. But that old saying of, you know, you have to do 10,000 hours of something before you're good at it.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

Yeah,

SPEAKER_00 49:52

definitely is for writing. At least it was for me. I know there's naturally talented people who just bang out their first novel and they're like, you know, bajillion bestseller.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

I am a little bit jealous of them. That's not

SPEAKER_00 50:04

me. I've written, I lost track now, but at some point I knew I had written over 3.5 million words. It's probably around 4 million now. But I've written a lot, a really, really, really lot. And I have lots of stuff that I throw on that number 50 because that's how many have been published. But I mean, I have tons of them in my files that are just sitting there. Basically because it's a process to format a book and get a cover and do all the things you have to do to actually get it published. So I like to write more than I like publishing. So I have a lot of stuff that's just sitting there. Maybe one day it'll get published, but I don't have time right now. So yeah, I've written a lot more books than have actually been published. And some of them are bad and will never get published, but that's okay. That's part of the learning process and also just part of the writing process because there's always stuff that you think is going to be great and then you write it and you're like, what is this? This isn't what I thought it was going to be at all. And you think, well, this isn't worth putting out because I don't like it. So if I don't like it and I'm not passionate about it, why would I expect anyone else to like it? And then there's other stuff that I think, I'm not even sure I should write this. This is pretty... crazy. And then I'll write it and I'll put it out there and people love it. And they're like, this is amazing. And I'm like, I wasn't even going to publish it. I thought it was weird, but people like it. So you never know. You never know what's going to resonate with other people. I'm always wrong about my work. The stuff that I think, oh, this is going to be a hit. I love this so much. And it fails to find a market. And then stuff I am not sure about at all. And people love it. So I don't know if there's a writer out there who knows for sure when something's going to be hit. I'm jealous because I sure don't know. I wish I did. It would be amazing. But on this journey, so I started out writing kids books. And I've written nonfiction. I've written biographies. I've written a lot of romance novels. So there was a point in time where I wanted to make money from my writing. And I was able to do that, writing romance novels. There are certain genres that can be lucrative. And romance is a genre that can be quite lucrative. So I did do that for three years. I wrote a novel a month for three years. So it ended up being, well... Wow. And I'm dabbling in other things. My next adventure is going to be Cozy Mystery. I really love mysteries. I've always loved mysteries. Huge fan of that type of, you know, like Murder, She Wrote, you know. Oh, yes, absolutely. I love that type of small town cozy mystery. So that's going to be my next adventure. I'm going to be doing a series of cozy mysteries.

SPEAKER_01 53:20

Yeah, absolutely. incredibly busy. Yes. But as I mentioned earlier, I

SPEAKER_00 53:26

don't have kids, which helps. Oh, but

SPEAKER_01 53:30

yes. Okay. In the conventional sense, no. But I mean, I feel like the way that you're connecting with your students, there's a level of kind of nurturing happening there anyway.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

Yes, I would agree.

SPEAKER_01 53:43

So that's still there. And so you're still taking on and you know concern for their welfare beyond what you're doing in the context of education so that aspect is always there wow sorry it's very busy here today honestly so I guess well as I said towards the end of an episode I always love to ask guests to leave a question for the listeners so What would be your biggest question that potentially you've asked yourself or one that still kind of keeps you going every day? Because I know at the beginning of this conversation, you did kind of mention what those questions potentially could be that keep you searching. But do you have a question for the listeners?

SPEAKER_00 54:32

Oh, yeah. So this is a question I used to ask. So The university where I work, we've transitioned more to online learning because that's where the market is. A lot of people want to learn online now, and especially now post-COVID, I think the majority of learning will be online more than in person. But when I was doing 100... I'm really old and, you know, I was at a point for a long time. I don't believe

SPEAKER_01 54:58

that for one second. Karen, take that back. There's no such thing as old.

SPEAKER_00 55:03

When I first started teaching, there wasn't online classes, really. So that really didn't exist in the market. So I was 100% teaching in person. And I used to always have a part of the class where we talk about the values and meaning and I would pose the question what do you think is the meaning of life and we had excellent discussion about that so I would ask that to your audience what do you think is the meaning of life I

SPEAKER_01 55:30

hope you enjoyed that thank you for joining me for this episode of Eternal Paradigm join me next time