A Journey Through Genres and Consoles

This episode explores the psychological significance of game genres, revealing how our preferences mirror our identities as gamers. From the endless adventures of MMOs to the leveling experiences in RPGs, we discover how gaming cultivates both social connections and personal growth.

• Introduction of the Gaming Persona Podcast and hosts 
• Importance of MMOs as a defining genre in gaming culture 
• The role of RPGs in personal and narrative growth 
• Discussion of genre hybridization in modern gaming 
• The significance of controller preferences as reflections of identity 
• Exploration of mobile gaming and its impact on the perception of gamers 
• Encouragement for listeners to reflect on their gaming choices and personal growth

Chapters

• 0:14 Exploring Gaming Personas and Friendship
• 10:45 Exploring MMO and Game Genres
• 24:22 Evolution of Role-Playing Elements in Gaming
• 34:33 The RPG Influence in Video Games
• 44:52 Reflections on Video Game Culture
• 53:56 The Significance of Final Fantasy

Transcript

Dr. Gameology: 0:14

Welcome to the gaming persona podcast. This is the show that explores who we become when we play games. I'm your host, dr Gameology, author of the Gamer's Journey, and I am joined by one of my very best friends from the gaming world, marcusb814. So yeah, marcus, how are you doing this evening?

MarcusB814: 0:37

I'm so amazing. I've been waiting all week to do this. Really, yeah, with bated breath. This really yeah, with bated breath. Oh, you've motivated me.

Dr. Gameology: 0:48

You've awoken a sleeping giant yeah, all it really is that I'm suffering in the content creator land, where you never have free time to yourself ever again in life, and I wanted to drag you into that with me.

MarcusB814: 1:02

Yeah, it just worked out perfectly. All right, we're gonna get into all of that. I wanted to drag you into that with me yeah, it just worked out perfectly.

Dr. Gameology: 1:07

All right, we're going to get into all of that Before we get started. Where can our listeners find us, and specifically you? Because you are the new addition to the gaming persona and I want to give everyone that doesn't know you already a chance to connect in the best ways possible.

MarcusB814: 1:27

You can find me on YouTube, just search for MarcusB814.

Dr. Gameology: 1:32

Yes, and I'm also on YouTube as Dr Gamology, but my favorite place for you to find me right now there's two of them is you can find me on a online or physical bookshelf via a copy of the gamer's journey. Or, if you want to see the gamer's journey happen in real time, you can follow and subscribe on twitch and have fun watching me go through new journeys. They're going to be part of the next book Three Mornings Every Week.

MarcusB814: 2:08

Can we just say also, too, you really want to watch his stream, because, as you get to know him and you hear his voice when you read his book, you're going to read it in his tone of voice, and it's just better when you do that.

Dr. Gameology: 2:21

That is really interesting because I was just talking with my wife about different people who are reading the book in different ways. Some are reading it in paper form, some are listening to the audiobook, and some people are listening to the audiobook but then imagining me, because they actually know me in life and they're wondering what was he actually feeling when he decided to go and write about that? And so I've been reflecting for a couple hours about does that change what book you're reading if you know me versus if you don't?

MarcusB814: 3:00

No, because I can't picture the way the book is written any other way, because if you wrote the book like it was me writing the book, it wouldn't be your book.

Dr. Gameology: 3:13

No, but that's how all books work, I know, but yeah, but the way you wrote it is so you.

MarcusB814: 3:19

So just for preference, I'm read I'm on chapter three, book form. I'm on chapter five, audio book.

Dr. Gameology: 3:30

Oh, so you're actually reading both.

MarcusB814: 3:32

Yes, so I really like the narrator and I like to compare the way I hear your voice, what I'm reading it in physical form, rather than the narrator, who is not you, who does a fantastic job. Right, the narrator is amazing, but he's not you.

Dr. Gameology: 3:52

So it might be the next best thing, but not quite me. Yeah, exactly.

MarcusB814: 3:56

But it's definitely interesting. I actually stopped reading, listening to the audio book so I could catch up on the physical book. The reason why I started, okay, so the real reason why I started the audio book first is because I thought I pre-ordered it on the Kickstarter, which I'd never clicked the pay button like a idiot, and but then I pre-ordered it right away on Amazon and then there were some issues with Amazon, whatever, and so I was like I can't wait to listen to this book or read this book, so I just bought it on audible and the book came in, and that's when I stopped to catch up on the book and then, once I'm even, I'll listen to. I'll read a chapter and then listen to a chapter.

Dr. Gameology: 4:40

Yeah, I just. It just occurred to me that we're introducing people to you. We're also talking about the book that I wrote and we need to do a really good job of introducing both of those things, because both of those things are completely new to the show. This is the first episode with you as a co-host and it's the first episode I've ever done where there are actual physical copies of the book in the room with me. That's interesting.

MarcusB814: 5:12

The whole reason why I started to talk a little bit of smack is because you plugged your book and it was actually really funny to me.

Dr. Gameology: 5:18

It was perfect plug, like you plugged in a socket into the wall and I just got back from pax unplugged a month ago, where my whole thing was standing at that table for geek therapeutics and convincing people that this book is going to change video games for them for the rest of their life. So I've gotten. Really I'm not a promoter like you. So marcus and I have different personalities, and one of his strengths is bringing people in and getting the hype going, and I'm more the kind of person that's, yeah, do whatever is logical, that makes good sense, okay. But I'm learning to tell people about the book and to try to get a little bit of Marcus's energy coursing through me like a persona mask that I wear during battle.

MarcusB814: 6:09

I like that.

Dr. Gameology: 6:11

Yeah, that's well said. Awesome. Okay, one point for the doc tonight.

MarcusB814: 6:19

Acknowledge me you know we're going to use. So just for the record, everybody, everybody. I love wrestling and so does doc. So for the next four million episodes that we do this he's with, there's definitely gonna be some wrestling references, for sure yeah, and if you don't like my book, I have two words for you. So good.

Dr. Gameology: 6:46

I wasn't going to use those two words. I was going to say something like that's okay.

MarcusB814: 6:50

No, something polite yeah, but that's not wrestling. Okay, that's true, you open the door. You have to be very careful with me. You can't open the door and not expect me to walk through it.

Dr. Gameology: 7:06

Listen, I have been doing everything I can all day to accomplish work goals. This is not the time to tell me what I can't do. Marcus, this is my free time.

MarcusB814: 7:17

Guess what? I'm not the person that tells you you can't do it. I'm usually the guy that's telling you to get up off your butt and do it.

Dr. Gameology: 7:24

All the things I do are on my butt. That's just the world we live in.

MarcusB814: 7:28

Ooh, good call, but what I was going to say is so a little backstory on me. I've known Doc for a long time. We met each other in the Dread Palace in Star Wars, the Old Republic. He was a guy that was in our Discord Discord and he knew the raids. I didn't know anything about raids Said hey, could you help us do this? He said yes. After that first night he came back for the next 400 Sundays and we raided together.

MarcusB814: 7:58

I don't know if it was actually 400, but it was close. But anyway, and then we just started talking on the phone and got to meet each other and our friendship grew. But in the meantime I was streaming a lot on Twitch. I had a podcast, which is now retired, and we have this great friendship and we talk about this stuff all the time and we finally just said, hey, let's do it. And I just made my comeback to YouTube, which I never streamed on YouTube before. Yesterday was my first time ever. So it's Doc has inspired me to come back and I'm super happy to do this with him.

Dr. Gameology: 8:36

Yeah, I think that one of the most important things about the gaming persona from episode one until now is the show was started because I was having all these really awesome conversations with Jenny, and these were conversations that definitely feed into the thinking style that led to some of my presentations that a lot of people have gone to online and at conferences, and then that led to the book being written. And it was just this desire to take my experience as a podcast co-host for UtiniCast, where I would talk about Star Wars, the Old Republic, but then branch into every video game or any video game that is worthy of the discussion, of who we become when we play games, and Jenny did an amazing job giving the opportunity for us to do that for the first 125 episodes I think it was over four years and Marcus was doing Working Class Nerds, where I got to be a guest several times, and we were rating in SWOTOR for about five years.

MarcusB814: 9:51

I think yeah, we did the podcast for seven years.

Dr. Gameology: 9:54

Yeah. So there was this really good synergy too, where I'm having a lot of good conversations friend to friend with Marcus and starting to realize that, wow, these are really good conversations too. But for all those years leading up until this week right here, right now he has his show, I have my show, and then we have very different weekly schedules, so it's just very hard to coordinate all that and make it work. So it's just very hard to coordinate all that and make it work. And then we realized somewhere over the christmas break kind of area, that we actually have compatible schedules and availability to do one podcast. And then we played an epic match of mortal combat and I won. And now we're doing the gaming persona instead of working class nerds. Fatality, marcus, I'm kidding, that didn't happen, but it would be really cool if it did.

MarcusB814: 10:50

I'm just not even gonna dispute it. It actually sounded really rad, so I'm into it. Yeah, we can just go like that. I, he was like Kano and he ripped out my heart, and Doc is such a savage, he even bit it yeah, I would definitely consider the protein and other nutrition values of that heart but it's you know what. This is awesome. I'm excited for this stuff. Um, I know we have an awesome topic today that's gonna break us down and uh yeah I'm excited, man.

Dr. Gameology: 11:24

Yeah, so, marcus, what is the topic that we're going to be talking with everybody about?

MarcusB814: 11:30

oh, oh, snap, you're putting me on the spot. Today we're going to talk about our three favorite game genres, and the reason why we decided that is because we're going to take those three genres talk about it today. But this is going to branch off into many more topics down the road, because my brain works differently than doc's brain and doc analyzes my brain better than I know my own brain. So it's going to be great and I'm going to get to know the reasons why he loves some of the genres that he does. And this is going to be this is going to be branching for sure. I'm excited, yeah.

Dr. Gameology: 12:05

So our call to adventure tonight is going to be just us talking about. What do we know about game genres and how does that factor into what we are as gamers? Because, marcus, you and I are really good friends but very different people, and one of the most basic ways to understand that difference is actually not even getting into genre. It's game controllers, and we just have to start it there. I know we're not talking about console wars. Look at that. Yeah, so everyone that's listening and not watching this as a video. Marcus, what are you holding in front of your face right up in that webcam? So it's nice and big.

MarcusB814: 12:55

it's the greatest controller ever, which is the xbox controller and part of this is not factual information.

Dr. Gameology: 13:04

It is an xbox controller, but it is not the best controller ever, although you're that that controller you were holding is magnificent it's so beautiful but I really like the ps5 controller I like it so much that I needed to buy a version of it where they just literally cut it in half and put a really cheap looking iPad in between the two halves of it. They call it a PlayStation Portal. So I love the PlayStation Portal and because of that, I love this and because of that I love this.

MarcusB814: 13:45

I'm so disappointed that you have a generic white PlayStation controller. Actually, did you know you can order a custom Dr Gamology controller? What? Yeah, there's companies that will paint your controller.

Dr. Gameology: 14:10

It'll be a stock controller, but for a hundred bucks they'll customize the whole controller for you. Interesting, I have only white controllers and black controllers in my house. They didn't have all the different colors. When I went out to buy controllers for multiplayer yeah, the console comes with one and then I knew I had company coming over. So there was one day where I went and bought three more controllers so we could do the LittleBigPlanet game.

MarcusB814: 14:29

Such a good game.

Dr. Gameology: 14:31

It's so good. And then now we just have spare controllers on the chargers, so that when the one you're holding dies, you just have another one. Then I got a PS5 Slim for my office, so now I have five PlayStation controllers and a portal, the all right.

MarcusB814: 14:48

So when you first said the controller in your hand, I thought they make a thing called the backbone. Have you ever had the?

Dr. Gameology: 14:54

backbone to yeah, controller, okay. So right there, we've established in our call to adventure that for much of our lives I've been a playstation fan and you've been an xbox enthusiast, and that's fine. Console wars are over. Games are very rarely so exclusive that you can't play them somewhere else, and one of the cool things about microsoft's environment is anything is an x these days, so you can play with games, game pass, you can play on smart TVs, which that blows my mind. So I do.

MarcusB814: 15:34

Yeah, so I have game pass, I have the ultimate, so I can use it on my PC or Xbox. And now our new TV has the app to where you can do like the cloud streaming to it, and if you're you can't play a multiplayer game because the cloud like the ping between streaming it to the TV then streaming it to your controller. All that the lag is there. But to play like Minecraft dungeons or a BMX racing car but BMX bike game or something, it works flawlessly, but when you get into multiplayer it's terrible.

Dr. Gameology: 16:10

The lag is real yeah, I think, though, that I'm so bad at multiplayer games, I would not notice a difference.

MarcusB814: 16:18

I dispute that. You are the top DPS healer on any raid team yeah, but that's not pvp.

Dr. Gameology: 16:25

That's me versus the game with friends. Okay, this actually does lead us into game genres. I think what we should do is at least how do we want to do this? Do we want to just start with what?

MarcusB814: 16:41

and go. What are your top three?

Dr. Gameology: 16:42

genres Go. Okay when we say genre. Okay, there are so many genres now for real. This is not like the 1990s, where you have the Super Nintendo and the Sega Genesis doing their best to take creative ideas and give you the opportunity to play them. Their best to take creative ideas and give you the opportunity to play them. Video games seriously can be whatever the game developers need them to be to create the experience that they have in their minds. Because of that, there are so many genres that we could have lists of three completely different ones, or we could actually line up and share a couple, but maybe in different spots. So, Marcus, I want to hear what your number one genre in your list is. Not that there's like a rank order, but just the first one that comes to mind when it's yeah, this one's in my list of favorites. So what's the first one that you want to talk about?

MarcusB814: 17:43

No matter what, I think I have to start with an MMO. I no matter what because growing up always loved games and I loved Call of Duties and stuff, but I didn't actually ever fall completely into love with the game until I played Star Wars, the Old Republic, and got sunk in and I wasn't like a beta user, I was just. I just started playing when we had my daughter in 2016 and I just fell in love with the game and it took me by storm. So I have to start with an MMO.

Dr. Gameology: 18:24

Okay. So an MMO game that stands for massively multiplayer online role-playing game. It's usually MMORPG. You can make MMO games that are not RPGs. You could have them be first-person shooters. You could have them be more of a massive online or multiplayer online battle arena. Those are not mmos, though. I just got confused because of the m and the o. So not mobas, those are a different category. Yes, um, so I just have to remember marcus.

Dr. Gameology: 19:01

One of the quirks of our show is it's very common for non-gamers to listen to the gaming persona, because they might be mental health professionals who want to understand more about video games, or they could be parents or loved ones that have a gamer in their life who maybe meet me out in the wild at a conference or something and they want to listen.

Dr. Gameology: 19:23

And then we say mmo and we lost them because they don't know what. 100. Yeah, so when we say an mmo game, there are so many, but there are some heavy hitters that have been around a long time that really have shaped the video game landscape. So that would be world of warcraft, first one that comes to mind, but even before that you have games like ever quests that really created the genre. Yeah, so you have games that have an infinite amount of playability because you play through the story, you do all the quests in the side quests, you level up, but then you reach what we call end game and then you just keep playing the same thing over and over at different levels of difficulty, hoping that one day you'll conquer the most difficult gaming challenges really that exist. I I don't think very many other genres are created with the same emphasis on that level of challenge as what you get in typical end game MMO play.

MarcusB814: 20:29

Yeah, I can agree, but, believe it or not, for me MMO, the reason why I think I fell in love is because it never ends. One of my favorite games of all time was Mass Effect 2, but it ended and, like when it ended, I went into a tailspin because I'd never wanted that game to end. Where in an MMO, like you said, you can finish a story but then you can do end game, you can do a new story, you can do this, you can grow on that. It doesn't end. So you feel like when you invest your time into it, it's not going to stop.

Dr. Gameology: 21:04

Yeah, like when you invest your time into it, it's not going to stop. Yeah, there are ways to prolong your time in a game too, but a lot of times people will experience completion anxiety, which is they're so afraid of that feeling you just described, that they will create different activities or focus on activities that never used to matter to them, just in the need to keep that game available. Sure, for me, mmorpgs are obvious for me to be the number one category if we're looking at what games have done for me in my life. Those games open up the opportunity for psychology professionals to be interested in research because they are lifestyle games.

Dr. Gameology: 21:53

Okay, so any game that you create a weekly routine around, that just takes your time, takes your energy, takes your studying, takes your time, takes your energy, takes your studying, takes your critical thinking and gives you an endless challenge. That if you want to invest enough time in your life where this is your primary hobby, an MMO game can do that, because there's just a different kind of challenge for everyone. So if you want to defeat difficult bosses, mmos have that. If you want to decorate your house, mmos have that. If you want to sew some clothing or become a blacksmith and create weapons. You can do that right. You don't have to always be doing the same thing and you can create alternate characters and role play and you can make personalities.

MarcusB814: 22:56

Yeah, you can do so much that there's so many different things in an MMO that connect to the same game, where there's no set rules on what you can do.

Dr. Gameology: 23:10

I'm going to transition slightly, though. So we get to my second genre. I know I just let you go first, then I piggybacked and now I'm going to take the second spot for you. I'm gonna drop the mmo out and just say rpg.

Dr. Gameology: 23:26

Interesting because you open up the play style differences to where you can have games like world of warcraft or final fantasy 14, but by dropping the mmo you create single player experiences where I don't have to group up with you or anyone else in order to have a chance at success. And you also open up to different play styles, because Pokemon and Persona or a game that I just finished yesterday, Metaphor Refantasio game of the year for 2024 from several outlets those are turn-based attack style games where I have my list of characters versing the opponent characters and we just take turns picking different spells or attacks to cast until the health bars are depleted. That's turn-based action, but it's still a role-playing game because your characters are leveling up with experience points and you're still acquiring new abilities by growing them stronger. You're just losing the online social components.

MarcusB814: 24:40

Yeah, and your style of RPG? You're talking about turn-based. I'm more. If I'm playing an RPG, I like the action-style RPG where when you go into battle, it's live combat versus everybody takes turns, as in Final Fantasy XVI, which I started yesterday, or Mass Effect 2, as I mentioned earlier, or I just beat Trials of Mana. That's an action RPG as well.

Dr. Gameology: 25:13

Now here's the thing, Marcus RPG elements are making their way into all the other genres anyway these days. Yes, into all the other genres anyway these days, and that is a concept in the psychology research side. We call that hybridization of genre. So what that means is you take role-playing game aspects like leveling up or equipping items and leveling up items and then you put that into a video game like leveling up or equipping items and leveling up items and then you put that into a video game that has a different style of system to it, so they can do this with first-person shooters. So back 25 years ago, first-person shooters were not RPGs, right? The only thing that was an RPG kind of thing in GoldenEye is that Oddjob is just a half centimeter shorter than everyone else. You can't headshot him the same. Everyone else is the same height. Yeah, and that's not even really a role-playing game thing, it's just a quirk, okay.

Dr. Gameology: 26:40

So back in the Nintendo 64 era, first-person shooters were over here doing their thing. Do we get into the polygon era? Because the last amazing games that we had were chrono, trigger and final fantasy six. And then you get, as time continues, fast forward, five to ten years, you start getting those shooter games that have role-playing elements in them, and even to the point where getting a gun that you can customize or modify so that it's a better gun by finding certain things in the environment of games like Bioshock, you know that it's not really so much an RPG, but you're starting to see the RPG stuff make its way into the shooter style games and then, oh my gosh, they're the poster child for first person shooter hybridization. It's not a game that I have played because it's not my thing. I I'm going to have to. I'm going to have to think about this for a second, marcus.

MarcusB814: 27:49

Call of Duty.

Dr. Gameology: 27:52

Is Call of Duty. Does it have RPG elements to it? Yeah, it sure does.

MarcusB814: 27:55

So you go and you shoot your gun and get kills and you unlock the next perks and you can level up guns. So the max level gun Is is gold. It's like shiny golden gun that's, and when you're running around the map and you have a shiny golden gun, people know you maxed out that gun oh, that's pretty cool.

Dr. Gameology: 28:16

Yeah, all right. So we've got mmos, we've got rpgs. I got to talk about hybridization, which is not its own. It's just one of those gray areas where you start borrowing from other categories to make the game exactly the way you want it. What's your next one?

MarcusB814: 28:35

Marcus, I was mirroring you and I am just now playing more games that I'm branching out.

MarcusB814: 28:49

For a long time I would play one MMO game or in this case, destiny which I still say it's an MMO, but they call it a looter shooter where it's all about guns and upgrades and getting armor, upgrading your armor, but it's still an MMO upgrades and getting armor, upgrading your armor, but it's still an MMO, because the game doesn't really end. And then you're always playing with people in a fire team or in PVP, whatever, and still raiding. But I've been playing more RPGs and before I found Star Wars, the Old Republic, I loved shooters, call of duty, apex, legends, all those games. And then I fell into this pace of an MMO and an RPG all in one and I just it consumed me and I think now where I'm at, I like that more than a shooter. But my honorable mention too would be a souls game like Elden Ring. I haven't beaten it yet because I got really frustrated and then I moved um, but that probably an it's an rpg, but it's also not.

Dr. Gameology: 30:08

it's also an open world game which is also a action rpg game, which is also a like discovering game okay, now we're talking gaming motivations, marcus, and when you have discovery in a, that's just a byproduct of having an open world and having things that are not obviously apparent. But if you search for them, you start finding extra things, and so you get a dopamine release from the discovery component. Sure.

MarcusB814: 30:41

Let me ask you a question. Question is an open world game different than is? It? Is an open world game different? Its own genre, would you say? No interesting?

Dr. Gameology: 30:53

it's an element of a game that has a genre. So if you have an open world game like destiny, and an open world game like Destiny and an open world game like Breath of the Wild or Tears of the Kingdom, those are two very different games that both have a big enough world that you can decide where to go and how to explore it, and your problem solving involves finding new areas and navigating them, without necessarily a quest objective that you can just run around, fly around, jump around, climb around, see what the limits of that environment are going to let you do, regardless of the game objective.

MarcusB814: 31:37

Okay, yeah, so I saw a squirrel and I'm going to come back to the shooter. The reason why I picked shooter is because forever I loved them. Like I mentioned earlier, mass effect two is one of my favorite games of all time, and that is a third person over the shoulder uh, shooting.

Dr. Gameology: 31:59

RPG. That is not a social game either. That's a one person experience.

MarcusB814: 32:05

Correct, but I am very social. If you guys can't tell already, I'm very extroverted and I love the social aspect of gaming. I don't know. Doc made me do some test a long time ago and it was like 40-something percent social.

Dr. Gameology: 32:26

Yeah, it was the friendship application. Everybody I have to know the gaming motivations for everyone that I am friends with in video games.

MarcusB814: 32:34

And literally 40% or more was social.

Dr. Gameology: 32:38

Yeah, yeah. For me, though, the high percentages are going to be in the achievement category and in understanding mechanics and the social thing. I like teamwork, I really do. I think that the hardest times for me in social inspired games is when I'm the weakest link in the social situation because I'm not putting the time in to become better, or when I am putting the time in and I can tell other people are not putting the time in. But those are different periods of life. We can talk about those in future episodes. Marcus, I'm really glad you brought up first person shooters, but I'm surprised which ones you brought up. You didn't bring up the typical heavy hitters like Call of Duty or Halo or Overwatch, or we have Marvel Rivals going on, never played.

MarcusB814: 33:31

Marvel Rivals? I don't. And when I play a shooting game I don't like a tactical shooter Like I like to pray and spray, just run around and just hold the button down and just mow people down. Call of Duty was great but I just I played a lot of Call of Duty and a lot of Halo but really, truly, I think I played days and days of those games. But I think still to this day I go back and I always look back as it was filler, like I was playing with my friends and I had fun. But the real shooting games I loved were like the mass effects, where you could sink your teeth in and shoot and kill things but also progress the story so you needed a story to explain the violent shooting down of your eyes yeah, yeah, we're gonna have some conversation about player types eventually, and this is a big point about for me why I am the player type I am.

Dr. Gameology: 34:33

That's a different episode, though, and we're gonna have, so. Every episode we do is gonna leave eight potential episodes on the table until we cannot manage this chaos anymore.

MarcusB814: 34:46

Well, don't, and you're, you're going to say branching eight, but then when you mix in my sidebars that are going to come, naturally it's going to, it's going to be like we're going into the upside down.

Dr. Gameology: 34:56

Oh, that's a good. That's a good reference. I'm going to share my final genre as well.

MarcusB814: 35:02

Yeah.

Dr. Gameology: 35:03

And I didn't realize that this was a genre that I'm gonna just define this clearly, until I was looking at my handy research about game genres. Can I guess? Yes, you can guess, go ahead. What am I about to say?

MarcusB814: 35:20

music like rock band and guitar hero oh no, rhythm gaming is definitely.

Dr. Gameology: 35:27

When I was a music teacher, I taught drum lessons before I was a counselor wait.

MarcusB814: 35:32

That was my yeah, wait a minute, I that wait hold the phones.

Dr. Gameology: 35:37

I did not know this. You didn't know that, okay, so the reason my counseling career started with me being so confident, sitting one-on-one with someone in the room and talking with them about improving something in their life, is because by the time I was a counselor, I already knew I could do this, because I had been a drum and percussion instructor for seven years, sitting one-on-one with kids to adults of different ages, helping them do something in their life better. Just instead of their mental health and life strategies for being responsible and coming through in a crunch, I was helping them follow a metronome and play my Chemical, romance and Fall Out Boy songs on the drum set. So I already was in this mental space where I'm helping people adapt something from one fun part of life into something that's useful for the way you live life and that leads to the gamer's journey. I switched from drums being a way to live life and I switched from counseling conversation being a way to live life better to now video games are a way to live life better.

Dr. Gameology: 36:43

But you are wrong. It's not Rock Band. But I have never ending love for Rock Band one, two and three. It's hack and slash. So these are games like God of War, devil May Cry. Fast action, avoid damage, jump and dodge through it, and do a combo system in order to smash and juggle your enemies until they explode to death.

MarcusB814: 37:12

Interesting, because those games you still level up right.

Dr. Gameology: 37:19

That's where the hybridization comes in. But Devil May Cry, where you play as a devil hunter named Dante and you hunt demons and rid the world of them and keep the world from ending in a terrible cataclysm it's got really good demonology info for people who are interested in the mythological aspects. Devil May Cry is great for video games, showing us the struggle between angels and demons and that's a really big part of mythology from other parts of human history. So I love Devil May Cry for that. But the combat is swinging swords and shooting guns to kill these demons, and Dante or Nero do not really level up. You make their combos better and longer and you do unlock new abilities for the guns, but you don't get to the point where if you swing the sword after playing the game for 50 hours, it kills things faster than the sword killed them the first hour that you played the game. But in a game like God of War, that is an RPG for sure. Kratos kills things much faster in the Norse duo of God of War. So God of War and God of War Ragnarok those are straight up RPGs that play like hack and slash. So that's another moment of hybridization that you have, something that in the PlayStation 2 era, these were separate genres, but now RPG is in everything, and you want to know why that is, marcus. I want you to tell me.

Dr. Gameology: 38:57

I'm going to explain that on the road of trials, where we yes, where we face our challenges and discover our strengths.

Dr. Gameology: 39:04

So this is such a academic application of what we're talking about that we need a new segment for it.

Dr. Gameology: 39:10

The reason rpgs have worked their way into all the other genres shooting guns, swinging swords, things that used to be their own genre, but now they have rpg in them is because role-playing games, going all the way back to tabletop and pen and paper, were created to make the way we play a game feel more like life. So when you're a kid and you're in music class and you want to play a recorder or a trumpet or the drums better, what do you do? When you go home, marcus, practice, and when you practice enough, and then you bring that instrument with you back to class and you practice your butt off the whole weekend and you have played the song really well, but for your parents so it doesn't count, because they love you anyway, probably and then you're in front of the class, it's your time to play it and show the teacher what you did. How's it going to sound at the end of that really tough weekend where you practice your butt off?

MarcusB814: 40:15

You're going to play hot cross puns better than anybody else in your class, because what did?

Dr. Gameology: 40:20

you do over the weekend Practice and what is practice called in video games grinding exp.

Dr. Gameology: 40:31

oh interesting, nice pull yes so the reason video games created experience points is because life is about accumulating experience points until your abilities go up. And then, when we level up in life, nothing bursts into light with a number that says level up above our head. Right, it just doesn't happen. So we don't recognize that it happens the same way we do in a video game. Video games make it so obvious that you're better at this. Now doesn't happen, so we don't recognize that it happens the same way we do in a video game. Video games make it so obvious that you're better at this now. You swung the sword five hours ago. It barely killed anything in 10 hits. You swing it now and everything's done in one hit. That's because you leveled up so many times. Now you're OP. But we get op in life too. You take someone who in third grade really just wanted to play hot cross buns on some instrument on the recorder.

MarcusB814: 41:36

That's what my daughter's doing right now awesome.

Dr. Gameology: 41:39

So you get a person in a very low grade whose big goal is if only I could play Hot Cross Buns and not be embarrassed by how bad it is. You turn that person into a 25-year-old playing on a different instrument. Hot Cross Buns is nothing. They can play it with one finger and just very easy air support. And it's done. It's perfect. Easy air support and it's done, it's perfect. They're playing other stuff now because they've gained 20 years of exp and that is not a challenge for them anymore I'm blown away right now.

MarcusB814: 42:17

yeah, my mind is I'm not saying a lot because I'm thinking a lot right now, do you?

Dr. Gameology: 42:22

remember the old way Star Wars, the Old Republic, used to be before they added level sync to every planet. You would come back to Korriban as a level 50 Sith sorcerer, best class, and you would just mow down everything in a split second of lightning. Then they add level sync and your experience is no good here. Everything's a challenge, no matter where you go, which is actually a really good metaphor for what it's like to graduate from college and then enter the workforce. But we're not talking about that right now. We're talking about video games, where you actually have the power to level up and become OP.

MarcusB814: 43:02

The unlimited power. You know what's interesting is? You think about those things, but you don't actually think about it until it comes out of your mouth.

Dr. Gameology: 43:13

Yeah. So the RPG style of playing a game is just the game's effort to make the things we do in the game feel like life. But then this is going to sound really like a self-reliant To make the things we do in the game feel like life. But then this is going to sound really like a self-congratulations to me. But I'm going to say it anyway, because this is a safe space for me to talk about the gamer's journey. There are so many video game players across the world. It's, as far as revenue, it is a bigger industry than Hollywood and the music industry combined. Ok, that's how big video games are, for sure, and the numbers back that up. That's not opinion at all. Read the New zoo annual report for 2024 and I guarantee, when you add console plus pc plus mobile together, pc master race that okay, but we're at a point where so many people play video games but they don't realize that's what rpgs are doing.

Dr. Gameology: 44:20

so then I decide to start sharing ideas, and then so many people don't know them. I'm going to write a book about it, and that RPG point is among hundreds of other ideas. It's embedded in that idea of why video games can help us learn about ourselves and become the hero of our own story, because we're learning how to procedurally grow in our abilities as we play a game. That's what role-playing games do to the game-playing experience.

MarcusB814: 44:52

Can I just say, though we talk about RPGs, hack-and-slash, shooters, all that isn't even the biggest games in the world. Biggest games in the world are games like Candy Crush, that my wife plays games in the world. Biggest games in the world are games like Candy Crush that my wife plays sitting on the couch. And when you ask my wife hey, are you a gamer?

Dr. Gameology: 45:11

No, Playing Candy.

MarcusB814: 45:13

Crush, you know what I mean.

Dr. Gameology: 45:14

That happens Go ahead. Sorry, I'm so sorry.

MarcusB814: 45:17

No, no, don't apologize, but it's that just says to me. But you're playing a video game? Yeah, but it's just on my phone. It's still a video game and you're leveling up.

Dr. Gameology: 45:29

Yeah, mobile gaming. As far as revenue is really high up there, it might even be bigger than console and PC but, you're right.

Dr. Gameology: 45:39

The majority of people don't recognize that they're gamers. They say no to that question and, unlike the same way as saying do you watch TV? People who watch TV, they'll say yes to that question. But you have all of these stealth gamers not gamers who play stealth games, but like they don't understand that what they're playing has video game elements and anything that is electronic that functions, with a set of rules that has a way to experience success and defeat. Sure Could be a video game. Wordle is a video game. You can win today, you can lose today.

Dr. Gameology: 46:20

You make your attempts to try to solve the word rules, goals, feedback and it's a voluntary experience, which is what makes it a game instead of a work responsibility yeah but also I thought, when you were going with the biggest thing, I thought you were going to go like traditional with the other game of the year for 2024, astrobot, which is a platformer. You have played astrobot. It's just the ones that you've played. Looked like you were having a plumber jump up and down in between pipes oh sure, I, yeah, I yes, absolutely.

MarcusB814: 46:59

Um, mario, what else A little big plan is by far still the best platformer I ever played.

Dr. Gameology: 47:08

Astrobots. Really good, marcus. It gave me so many of the same feelings that I remember having when I played super Mario 3d world.

MarcusB814: 47:16

You know what I do really want to play what? And I've been thinking about it and I really want to do it so that I can talk to you about it, because I don't really understand what it is and it's really going to the pot and I guess I shouldn't even talk about it in our first episode together, but I should play the game.

Dr. Gameology: 47:34

You have to now. Oh, journey, oh man, I have a thing that I promised myself years ago that I can't bring myself to do or haven't brought myself to do yet. And I was always saying to myself after my book comes out, I'm going to do a stream where I play Journey. You should, yeah, but then I haven't made myself do it, because there's this magical collection of people that I want to be 100% certain they will be there to do that with me, because I don't want to do it alone.

MarcusB814: 48:12

Respect that. Can you email or just send me a message with the game developer's name, because I'm going to reach out to them and see if they want to come on the show. It's Jenova Chen.

Dr. Gameology: 48:23

I'll definitely forget them and see if they want to come on the show. It's Jenova Chen I'll definitely forget. Also, if we want, someone from the development of Journey. I'm just going to share one of my dream episodes of the Gaming Persona. I would love to bring on Austin Wintory, who did the music, because even today, almost every day, I listen to that music while I'm grading papers. Today, almost every day, I listen to that music while I'm grading papers. It helps me get into what we call psychological flow, which is going to be many episodes of our show.

Dr. Gameology: 48:53

Austin, what Wintery? So that's something that I hope one day we get going for the gaming persona, that I hope one day we get going for the gaming persona. So I think, marcus, we have done a really good job sharing our game genres, several vocabulary words from the psychology of games. We've even tied it into research and we've tied it into the book and we've tied it into our own gamers journeys. So I think we should go on the return so that we can take all this with us into our daily lives and talk about where our next step forward is going to be. So what do talks like this do for you, marcus?

MarcusB814: 49:38

I think it opens the door for me to be able to think about what I actually care about, not of what I'm just currently playing. Actually, it sounds easy. Oh, come up with three genres of games you want to talk about and you think about it and you're like I really like fighting games, but I don't really play fighting games. But I really like RPGs. But I really love an MMO but I'm not currently playing an MMO right now but I really love them and I always gravitate back to them. You know what I mean. But then the emotions that go through you. I felt like I was in like a medieval torture device being pulled in every direction when I'm thinking about a game.

Dr. Gameology: 50:19

I'm having anxiety just listening to that thought process, marcus, so I'm glad you equated it to torture. That's exactly.

MarcusB814: 50:27

It is because I love so many different games, but it's hard to just pick three genres that you love when there's so many of. I love them all.

Dr. Gameology: 50:38

What is the one video game that made it so? Moving forward in life, you're always going to have positive thoughts about video games, at least in some way. Castlevania symphony of the night. For me, it's mortal combat.

MarcusB814: 50:53

2 and still to this day. If we ever play mortal combat 2, you are done zero chance.

Dr. Gameology: 51:00

I will be melina and it's game over for doc you think I don't know what the block button is, your little screen, kick in your rolly ball I don't need to do all that.

MarcusB814: 51:10

I'm gonna pop you up into an uppercut so bad you're gonna wish you're gonna want the spikes to stick you in the ceiling because you don't want to come down here for this but no, what I'm trying to say is so, castlevania, symphony night it was the first game that I, as a playstation one I don't know how old I was, but it was the first game where I was blown away. So when you, if you've ever played it, you beat it and all of a sudden everything starts shaking and then the castle turns upside down and it's a whole new game, you think the game is over, but it has only just begun and it changed my life with video games. So still to this day, I have a brand new sealed copy, I have a Greatest Hits copy, I have a regular copy and I have my memory card that still has all the save files on it, but I don't have a PlayStation one.

Dr. Gameology: 52:10

It's so hard to have a PlayStation one right now. The way you describe that, though, marcus, it also makes me think of what it's like to finish college and enter the workforce. You're so good at school that they like flip it upside down. Now you're at the bottom again.

MarcusB814: 52:23

Yeah, do the college thing. I'm a carpenter, yeah that's fine.

Dr. Gameology: 52:28

Yeah, I think that when we look at how student loans work, we can both agree. You were the smart one in that equation. Did we identify? I'm going to put you on the spot again. I just wonder what kind of magic you can make happen. What's going to be our topic next week?

MarcusB814: 52:45

Oh, that's a good one, I think. Next week I want to talk about Final Fantasy. Ooh, which one? All of them. Not four not five, not six, not seven we're going Miami Heat.

Dr. Gameology: 52:58

LeBron and Dwayne Wade here.

MarcusB814: 53:00

What do you mean? Kevin McHale and Larry Bird, let's go. Celtics baby. They only won three.

Dr. Gameology: 53:06

Still that's more than the.

MarcusB814: 53:11

Miami Heat with LeBron and Dwayne.

Dr. Gameology: 53:12

Wade no I guess.

MarcusB814: 53:12

Well, the reason why I say that is because younger Marcus played all of the Final Fantasies. You know, I still think Final Fantasy VIII is my favorite, but I want to talk about the progression of Final Fantasy. That's me how it started in Japan and how we ended today with Final Fantasy XVI. But yet we still have an MMO called Final Fantasy XIV. That is still going strong and, oh my God, they still have what's the other Final Fantasy? It's not XI and it's still getting updates they have.

Dr. Gameology: 53:50

yeah, it's really wild how those games just continue to exist. Final fantasy 14 had a really rocky launch but came back, did 2.0, redid the whole game and it's been amazing since then. I think I'm replaying a realm reborn which is 2.0 for final fantasy 14 right now. That's awful. Oh, I'm having a lot of fun with it. I love it. I think it's great.

Dr. Gameology: 54:20

But gameplay stuff, it feels like it feels the same as later in the game because they've updated the dungeons to have similar mechanics and things like that. Anyway, we're in the weeds on that. But talking just about Final Fantasy in general, what it is as a franchise and why it matters so much to video games In fact, final Fantasy VII Rebirth won the Game Award for Best Musical Score last year, so even a game that was less positively received still came away as the best at something, and that's 35 years later from the first game. I don't know the exact math, but it feels like that's close to correct, so that's just really cool. Final Fantasy always means a lot to me, so that'll be a good talk. If these conversations sound fun to you and you're looking for some great people to play online games with, you can always check out AIE at aie-guildorg. They are a multi-game guild and they really made a difference for me in Star Wars, the Old Republic and Final Fantasy XIV, so you should definitely check them out. Family friendly except for Marcus.

MarcusB814: 55:44

Yeah, I'm not family friendly. Oh, and do me a favor, everybody, if you're listening to this, please find Doc's page. You can find mine. I got to link it. Join the Discord. Join Doc's Discord because there's great discussions there. You'll find myself and Doc there. It's a really fun place. We have some fun meme channels. Come hang out with us in the Discord.

Dr. Gameology: 56:08

Yes, absolutely. And I have one last quest for everyone to collect for the day. If you level up in games, remember it's because you level up in life and, as always, continue the journey Later. Everyone, because you level up in life and, as always, continue the journey later everyone.