Rediscovering Final Fantasy Through Personal Adventures

Imagine facing a seemingly insurmountable gaming challenge, only to find victory through a fresh perspective. That's exactly what happened to MarcusB814 in our latest episode of the Gaming Persona Podcast, where he takes us on his triumphant journey back into Elden Ring. Meanwhile, Dr. Gameology finds himself engrossed in the mesmerizing worlds of Final Fantasy XVI and XIV, exploring their narratives and combat systems. We share our latest gaming escapades, ponder the potential launch of a video version on Patreon, and reflect on how these gaming experiences shape our journeys.

Join us as we explore the legacy and evolution of the iconic Final Fantasy series, from its roots on the Super Nintendo to its significant influence across generations of gaming. Marcus shares a personal story on how the series helped him improve his reading skills, showcasing the educational value of text-based games. We also delve into the psychological aspects of gaming, discussing how understanding these elements enhances effective communication and content creation. Through humor and camaraderie, we celebrate Final Fantasy's enduring impact on our lives as gamers and creators.

We then shift our focus to the powerful storytelling that defines the Final Fantasy series, considering the thematic elements and iconic villains that captivate players worldwide. Through thought-provoking discussions, we question common narratives around video game addiction and advocate for recognizing gaming's potential as a tool for creativity and emotional expression. As we wrap up, Marcus invites listeners to discover his gaming adventures on YouTube, while Dr. Gameology extends an invitation to join him on Twitch for live discussions, encouraging a mindset of embracing the gaming journey with determination and passion.

Chapters

• 0:16 Gaming Persona Podcast
• 8:31 The Legacy of Final Fantasy
• 18:36 Evolution of Final Fantasy Gameplay
• 26:00 The Impact of Final Fantasy Villains
• 39:58 The Influence of Final Fantasy
• 44:22 The Power of Storytelling in Gaming
• 59:32 Gaming Influencer Channels and Community

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:16

Welcome to the Gaming Persona Podcast. This is the show that explores who we become when we play games. Today, this is MarcusB814, and I'm joined with by my co-host, dr Gameology, the author of the Gamer's Journey, the professor from all over the country and the most dynamic content creator in all of the world. How you doing, doc.

Speaker 2: 0:39

I feel like my show just got hijacked. But not doing the work is intoxicatingicating, and now you will be typecast.

Speaker 1: 0:48

Yeah, about that, I'm just going with it, so perfect. Anyways, how has your week been going?

Speaker 2: 0:56

Oh man, we're doing this all out of order. It's been great. I don't know how to answer this question because I'm the one who always asks it. Does that make sense to anybody?

Speaker 1: 1:06

It makes sense to me and that's why we're doing it. Cause you so if everybody's listening. Doc has red cheeks right now because I completely threw him for a loop and I love it.

Speaker 2: 1:15

Yeah, one of the things that is really interesting that happened since last week when we recorded is obviously we got the editing done on the episode. I uploaded it. It was ready in time for people to listen on Thursday I'm not sure Thursday's the target date every week moving forward. I think I'd prefer it coming out earlier in the week, but we got it Major success. But there is a video version and I have to figure out what to do with it and I have Patreon sitting there and I was thinking maybe I should give the video version to Patreon.

Speaker 1: 1:52

So if you're going to do that, I need to know that, because A I want to look the part and B like half the episode. I might have my finger buried in my nose and nobody wants to see that.

Speaker 2: 2:02

Especially if you're paying for it. Exactly, nobody wants to see that, especially if you're paying for it Exactly.

Speaker 1: 2:05

Nobody wants to see it.

Speaker 2: 2:07

Okay.

Speaker 1: 2:07

Either ways, I'm glad to hear you got the show on track. It's been a crazy week for myself, but this week I'm excited. I know you're excited because last week Doc threw me if you were listening to the show. Doc threw me under the bus and made me pick a topic for this week and we picked Final Fantasy. So we're going to dive into that. But first, doc, what games have you played this week?

Speaker 2: 2:29

I have played this week Final fantasy seven rebirth. I have played final fantasy 14 and that's it. Those are the two games that I've played.

Speaker 1: 2:44

Awesome. Yeah, so I have rediscovered Elden Ring. Nice, a friend of mine. Yeah, so a friend of mine was over for Monday Night Raw this week because it was the big Netflix debut, yep. And so when that happened afterwards, he asked, would ask me he's, hey, have you played elden ring? And I said no and he goes. So wait. So you're still in lindell and you haven't beaten the erd tree avatar. I was like nope, I've tried a million times. I think I'm just stressed out. I had to walk away. He's, let's go. So I turned it on first try. Oh my god, I'm sorry the show is just going down the train no, this is amazing all right.

Speaker 1: 3:27

So doc just sat down. He first put his one in the air for the roman reigns, first acknowledging him as his tribal chief but number two. Then he went and got his undisputed world heavyweight championship belt. That's awesome. So back to the ur tree, so heaven. So he was like just play it. So I stood up, played it and I beat it first try and I was like blown away. I was like dude, I beat it and he goes. Dude, you probably were just burnt out of the game and you needed to step away.

Speaker 1: 4:01

So since then I've played a little bit more. I've explored more of lindell, found some cool things and then I shut it off because I'm really enjoying final fantasy 16 it's. So I'm still in the hideout and I just came back from, like my first mission. Yeah, when you leave and come back. So I'm probably only three or four hours in the game, but I'm enjoying it because it's like you get game and then you get cut scene and like the story is good. I haven't decided if I like that much cut scene with it yet, but I'm having a lot of fun and I wanted to make sure I played more Final Fantasy before today because I have a bunch of opinions and then after the show I'm going to be playing Final Fantasy before today because I have a bunch of opinions and then after the show I'm going to be playing Final Fantasy XIV with Doc.

Speaker 2: 4:48

Yeah, final Fantasy XVI was made to specifically be my ultimate game. It's storytelling like Game of Thrones in terms of setting and world and factions and betrayals and trauma, but it's still Final Fantasy. There's crystals, there's magic, there's Final Fantasy. 16 is straight up the monomyth, which is the fancy term for the hero's journey, and then the combat system has all the Final Fantasy tropes which we're going to talk about. What it is that makes a game Final Fantasy? It has all that, but the way you execute it is devil may cry and one of the things I thought about a lot when I was writing the Gamer's Journey. Marcus is Dante and Virgil and Nero make many appearances in the gamer's journey.

Speaker 2: 5:45

Devil May Cry is a massive franchise for Capcom. It's not Street Fighter, it's not Resident Evil, but it's an important franchise For sure. And I was questioning for about halfway through the book before I really found myself and I was like this is good, I am not questioning myself anymore. But the question was do people care about these specific games as much as I do? Are they going to read two pages straight about Devil May Cry in chapter two and tune out and be like that game lost me? I'm not interested and that might happen to some people, please don't, but the people that have gotten deeper into the book. Feedback from people so far is that it doesn't really matter which games I'm using to them, because the ideas are connecting it, even if it's a game they haven't played, which is what I was hoping. And there might be some people who don't get that. But so cool. Devil may cry in final fantasy during a story from game of thrones yeah, you're right yeah yeah, I'm.

Speaker 2: 7:00

I was going to actually stream Final Fantasy 16 this morning, marcus, except it wasn't installed on my PS5 for my office and, like the hard drive for PS5 Slim is not huge, coming stock from factory right, I just don't have all the games I would want.

Speaker 1: 7:19

So can I ask you a question? Why don't you just buy them on Steam? Why don't you just buy them on steam? You can stream steam. You can steam link your games to your tv. Just like a ps5. You can use your playstation 5 controller on a computer and half the time the games are cheaper on the computer than they are on the playstation store that's a great question, but I played final fantasy 16 two years ago, so that's why I I guess it was more of a blanket statement that, like you, don't have to buy it on the playstation yeah, so it has to do with setting up streaming settings in obs and

Speaker 2: 8:00

okay having to swap everything over and change which windows show up as my backgrounds, and also, if it's running on the PS5, it is not running on my hard drive. So all my hard drive has to do is put the picture that it's receiving into OBS instead of actually running the game. Well, and in my head it feels like a smart thing to do to just let my computer focus on the streaming part.

Speaker 1: 8:27

Sure yeah, I get it If you can laugh. I completely messed up everything in this show, which is great. Can you tell me, doc, where everybody can find you?

Speaker 2: 8:38

I absolutely can At the nine-minute mark. You can find me at twitchtv slash drgamology. You can also watch some of my YouTube videos where I go deeper into breaking down the psychology of gaming with specific topics and specific games. That's at YouTube Also drgamology there, and you can find this show on Apple Spotify and also drgamologycom and you can find this show on.

Speaker 1: 9:05

Apple, spotify and also drgamologycom. You can find me on YouTube at MarcusB814. I'm just getting back to the content creation roles. If you could drop that sub, that'd be awesome, yeah, in my world of growth. So now, if you guys can picture, I'm getting a ball and I'm passing it back to Doc to take over Doc.

Speaker 2: 9:24

Oh yeah, I think that, since we're talking about Final Fantasy and this is our first real in-depth conversation about Final Fantasy that is meant to be shared with the world I mean, I've been talking with Marcus about Final Fantasy since years, like at least when I started playing XIV, which would have been the end of 2019.

Speaker 1: 9:47

Sure, that was a long time ago now wow, it was yeah, but marcus is so much older now this is interesting, so the entire history of the show.

Speaker 2: 10:00

I have been, just by an edge, the oldest person on the show. Marcus has seniority over me as far as planet Earth is concerned, and the cool thing about that is I was just picking his brain on the phone to get ready for the episode 10 hours ago and he reminded me, doc, I played all the Super Nintendo Final Fantasies. I got this and you don't need to worry about what Final Fantasy opinions I have. I was like, okay, like I got to work on trusting people, marcus, because in psychology we have the stages of human development and when we're first born we're crying little poopy baby machines, and that stage of am I going to live and am I going to die is trust versus mistrust. And I promise you, marcus, I must have failed that stage miserably, because I do not just trust people easily. I have to make sure I know what's going to happen before it happens. Which brings me to my love of Emperor Palpatine, in the mastermind temperament type style that trailed off into an exploded Death Star of Oblivion.

Speaker 1: 11:20

And I loved every minute of it.

Speaker 2: 11:21

Yeah, so let's just start with our entry point into Final Fantasy and we'll talk about exactly why these games mattered to us when we were younger, and my hope is that will just flow into what Final Fantasy is now, just like how we started talking about this years ago. This franchise started many years ago now, about this years ago. This franchise started many years ago now and maybe we can also go at least cover a little bit of the console generations for this game. That's interesting, and the reason is in order to really get a lot of what I'm talking about. Always, whether you're a mental health professional, a parent, a gamer or a person who has a gamer in their life, sometimes it helps to understand the games that I'm talking about, so that the metaphors work for you. I think, marcus, the reason you just on the spot picked Final Fantasy out of the hat is because that is probably the number one game franchise. To understand what the heck I'm talking about when I make content right, do you feel that way? No, no, what is then?

Speaker 1: 12:25

I picked Final Fantasy. Last week when you put me on the spot and threw me under the bus, it was a marshmallow bus, marcus. Yeah, of course I didn't say it was squished. I didn't say it was the big yellow bus, it was like the State Puff Marshmallow man bus.

Speaker 2: 12:41

It wasn't the short bus either.

Speaker 1: 12:43

No, I didn't say that because I know I at least have a helmet on.

Speaker 2: 12:47

But anyway, I can't hear me out okay, you broke me, you broke character, like saying that I'm not oosy enough or something.

Speaker 1: 12:59

No dude like you're not oosy enough. Listen man, you're not in character, you're just doc, like you're not dr gamology. That Listen man, you're not in character, you're just Doc, like you're not Dr Gameology.

Speaker 2: 13:06

That's right, you're just Doc. I'm the undisputed Doc.

Speaker 1: 13:13

Undisputed Doc champion. No, so the reason. So you put me on the spot. A I'm playing. I started playing Final Fantasy 16. B we're playing Final Fantasy 14. I bought some time game time so like I'm playing it, so and I. The first Final Fantasy I played was Final Fantasy. Hold on 4 on the Super Nintendo. Yeah, in 91.

Speaker 1: 13:40

And I don't remember how old I was, but I was never a good reader as a kid and so I hated reading books, hated it. And I went to my doctor one day with my primary care and my mom was telling her that I hated books and she suggested that have you ever read comic books? And I said no, and my mom took me to the comic book store and then she said to me do you play text-based video games? I said what's a text-based video game? And she said Final Fantasy. And I said what's Final Fantasy? And she's oh my God, it's.

Speaker 1: 14:15

You basically have to read your way through the game. The only way to beat the game and to beat it is to play strategy, but also read all the text, because you don't know what attacks you're doing. You don't know anything because there's no icons, everything is just text base. And I said, okay, that later that year my mom got me final fantasy 4 and I don't know if it's actually final fantasy 4 in japan. It was weird how they like changed the numbers. I don't know the actual number comparisons but isn't like Final Fantasy four, like Final Fantasy six in Japan?

Speaker 2: 14:51

Okay, I am not sure the exact numbers here. I might make a mistake here and if that happens just call me on social media and correct me. I want the true information and that's for our listeners, obviously. But I believe Final Fantasy I in America is Final Fantasy I. I think Final Fantasy II in America was actually Final Fantasy IV.

Speaker 2: 15:15

I think Final Fantasy III in America was actually Final Fantasy VI, and then that means that for American audiences they skipped over the Japanese Final Fantasy 2 and 3 and 5. But eventually they got to the point where they released all of them on probably the PS1. And that is when the numbers got reshuffled and Final Fantasy 3 in America switched to being called six and to switch to being called four. So that way releasing two and three was matching with Japan, matching five was matching with Japan. And the reason for those release changes is because those ones that got hopped over for American audiences have really hardcore role paint, role playing game structures in them that are not always fun and you can still enjoy the games, but you have to be mentally ready to do some things that are very complex in order to get the most out.

Speaker 1: 16:26

Yeah, but that was my journey beginning of Final Fantasy.

Speaker 2: 16:32

Okay, Now they go ahead.

Speaker 1: 16:35

No, no, I was going to say, but I recently saw that like the switch has, like the Collection which is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. Pixel Remaster yeah, but it's $80.

Speaker 2: 16:49

Yeah, because every single game is completely rebuilt and amazing and beautiful.

Speaker 1: 16:56

So there it is.

Speaker 2: 16:56

Yeah. Answer answered they're fantastic versions of the games and you can always tag them on Steam with your wishlist and then buy them when they're on sale Super smart way to do it, right? I want to talk about the origin of the name Final Fantasy, because I think that belongs in this episode and it's something I want our audience to know. Moving forward too, because we might allude to it in future episodes, and if you're listening to this one, it's just going to make sense from this moment forward. But Final Fantasy came out in the 80s and I believe it was for the Nintendo Entertainment System and the name was originally conceptualized as maybe being called fighting fantasy or some kind of other ff. They couldn't do that because of trademark concerns with a some kind of a game style book like a ttrpg maybe or some kind of gaming adjacent book that already existed. And then also there were a lot of struggles in the company, for I believe it was called square soft back then, and so if this game had not been successful, the company would have closed and everyone would have gone separate ways in their career, and so, trying to figure out another FF naming convention, they're like we're not going to do fighting, maybe we should just do final. This is the final fantasy we're going to make because we're going to release it. Some people play it, it's going to fail and then we're going to move on with our lives. This is the end of the company.

Speaker 2: 18:36

Had a good run, good attempt, go team, and it hit so hard. It brought all of the amazing ttrpg role-playing games leveling up, getting experience, magic and classes, turn-based style warfare, but without dice, which really simplifies it all. The rng is under the surface, you don't see how the critical hits and the misses are decided, but it's still there. The dice are still there, you just don't see them. And, in my opinion, final Fantasy and a few other games. I'm not going to pretend that Final Fantasy is the only game that caused this, but we talked about hybridization last week and how so many other genres now have role playing game elements in them, because it does something to the process of actively playing the game. That is a positive experience for game players and the first Final Fantasy was a heavy contributor to video games working the way they do today.

Speaker 1: 19:41

You're right, you think back at the games that changed the industry, and Final Fantasy definitely is. I did not know where Final Fantasy's name came from and how that all came to be, so I learned something there. But you think back forever. Generations of players, right, you think of like the 20-somethings playing the nes played final fantasy they do the 20-something, something now yeah, but to the 20-somethings just starting to play final fantasy. With final fantasy 16, you're talking about multiple generations of people being involved in final fantasy.

Speaker 2: 20:18

So every Final Fantasy is in a different fantasy world, at least if the number changes. Right, these are not sequels. Like you watch a Star Wars movie and Luke Skywalker and Han Solo and Leia, princess Leia and then you come in for the next one it's Empire Strikes Back. And who do you see? Luke Skywalker, han Solo and Princess Leia and come back for empire strikes back. And who do you see? Luke skywalker, han solo and princess leia, and come back for another one. And who do you see? Ewoks and luke skywalker, han solo and princess leia? Right?

Speaker 2: 20:49

but then you come back one more time and it's ray yes, that is true and everyone that's listening is going to remember. That is true, and we're going to reel that back in and get back to Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy, you play one, you become the Warriors of Light and you pick what is it? Four of them and that's your battle team for the whole game. And then you play Final Fantasy 2, and you are not the same squad at all and it's not even the same political disaster. It's not the same monster and it's not the same threat to the planet. You're right, right.

Speaker 2: 21:31

And so one of the things I think about all the time when I'm talking to non-gaming type people is they ask me what are you working on? I'll say I have a research project actually brewing. It's about ready to go through IRB, it's going to be my next research data project and it's on Final Fantasy 14. Okay, and then they ask okay, what are you streaming on Twitch? I'm playing Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth.

Speaker 2: 21:59

And for these people and it's okay to not be a gamer, you're probably not listening to this podcast if you're not in some way curious about what it's like to be a gamer, but I can just imagine listening to someone talk on and on about how they level up all these classes in Final Fantasy XIV and then they stream Final Fantasy VII Rebirth and you're wondering why are? Why are you playing 14 and 7? They're so far apart. Like why don't you ever play 11? So nobody plays 11 anymore. It's the mmo that's in maintenance mode and you probably need a personal server. It's very complicated and so these games are part of a franchise because they have thematic connection, but they are not narratively connected, which is really interesting to me. It's always going to be interesting to me.

Speaker 1: 22:51

So just so we're on the same page, right now, final Fantasy 11 still has servers. All you got to do is create a Square Enix account, install the Play Online Viewer and Final Fantasy 11, and you can play it.

Speaker 2: 23:04

You can officially play Final Fantasy 11 right now.

Speaker 1: 23:07

Yeah, it still gets updated, Whoa Yep. Okay, it might be in maintenance mode, but it still gets updates.

Speaker 2: 23:14

Wow, that is amazing. I just learned something. Thank you, Marcus.

Speaker 1: 23:19

Yeah, that's what I do.

Speaker 2: 23:24

All right, so you can play one through 16 right now if you wanted to buy the pixel remaster and then spend hundreds of dollars on seven through all the. There's three games in 13. There's two games in 10. 12 is one game, nine is one game, eight is one game, seven is one game. Game 8 is one game. 7 is one game, but with two remakes and then you got 15 and 16.

Speaker 1: 23:45

Yeah, it's a lot of Final Fantasy. What I will say to you about the different stories, how they're not connected, what I do is how each one is different but it always has the same plot. You know, some traumatic thing happens. You gotta build yourself up. You're chasing the final boss and it's not the rock and yeah that's so funny and it's a journey. The same way, but it's just told in different ways yeah, every game follows the hero's journey yeah, yeah it does, but I guess for final I'm just saying final fantasy.

Speaker 1: 24:33

You know it's always traumatic, like traumatic thing you're left, it was scraps and you've got to build yourself up right, just like link, link always is bad to the bone. Then he wakes up from his slumber and he's got a wooden sword and a carrot yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:51

So what you're describing is the transition from the separation phase where the ordinary world gets disrupted, and then you have no choice you either die or you start fighting. And if you're heroic, you choose to start fighting, and in different ways. Like the hero is not always a virtuous hero, at the beginning sometimes they're a little bit on that anti-hero arc, but eventually they learn something's important to them and then they come through and they decide I'm going to fight for the right reasons usually. So that's the call to adventure that you described, and then that's the initiation into the heroic cycle, and then the road of trials and all of those things continue from there.

Speaker 1: 25:42

Right, and that's why I was taking us through the Cult of Adventure today.

Speaker 2: 25:46

Oh, you just initiated the phase of the conversation. Wow, see what I do. Yeah, we're getting there. Our time management is questionable tonight, but it's still a great conversation.

Speaker 1: 25:58

Meant to be that way, right, yeah. But what I will say, though, is something that I enjoy about Final Fantasy and the way they do it is yes, you're beaten down, but they always are. The game is so uplifting, or I find it's always like you're never just like I find that other games you're just always like the lowest of low, and then's always like you're never just like I find that other games you're just always like the lowest of low, and then, all of a sudden, you're the highest of high. Where Final Fantasy, it's like you're meeting nice people and they're all like, oh, you're welcome here and you can do this. And then you do a little side quest for them and they're happy for it. You know what I mean. They're happy that you're doing that for them and you're doing that for them. And now you got a friend, and it always I don't know. I feel like final fantasy is always up on the upward trajectory.

Speaker 2: 26:45

I never feel like you get that like sharp 90 degree curve to where, oh, I'm the worst, now I'm the best yeah, like even clive in final fantasy 16, when he's at his lowest he's not exactly a maidenless, tarnished right like he's gonna be okay. He's powerful enough to do something. He's always discovering more strength. The power of friendship is a big square enix thing. Okay, like, friendship is a important theme in all these games.

Speaker 2: 27:25

There is not a single one maybe 16 and 15 are the closest, but there's not a single game in the Final Fantasy franchise where one hero does everything alone. It is built on a party system and learning how to trust other people and rely on them, but also answering your calling and fulfilling your destiny. I think destiny and fate are big themes in these games as well and a lot of people wrestle with those themes in their own lives. It's really hard sometime to wake up with the feeling of I was meant to do something. Because that feeling when you're not doing well, you start to begrudgingly work through it like I have to do something and that makes it more likely you run away from that purpose. And Final Fantasy runs us as players mentally right into that idea through the characters and their personal struggles that you find out more and more with each scene.

Speaker 1: 28:40

Can I ask you a question, of course? Who is your favorite boss in Final Fantasy? All of them.

Speaker 2: 28:51

Sephiroth.

Speaker 1: 28:53

That's interesting.

Speaker 2: 28:54

No, I just I think he's the most important one to defeat. I think that there are very memorable villains across the entire franchise, but one thing, who's your favorite?

Speaker 2: 29:05

Okay, I really enjoyed Final Fantasy XIII and XIII-2 back when those were new games. I don't remember what the villain was. I remember what the central struggle was for Lightning and her sister and that was directly wrestling with fate and trying to defy fate and that sibling bond save your loved ones, right. But I don't remember the villain in that game. I would love to replay them so that I remember.

Speaker 2: 29:33

Final Fantasy VII has Cloud and Sephiroth and so many other memorable things in between party members and also story beats, and I just think that story is a mythology unto itself, that hundreds of years from now, people are going to remember the feud between Sephiroth to Cloud and the life lessons from Zack and Aerith, and they're going to still be thirsting for Tifa, probably. But Tifa is amazing and more than that, and they're still going to be thinking about all the other examples from the Final Fantasy VII story, like taking care of the planet and empathy for other people and the evils that can exist in corporate greed. And so I think, as far as for a story to really stand the test of time in a fictional space, like a video game, it needs to have the hero and the villain and a compelling reason why they oppose each other. So Clown, sephiroth, link and Ganondorf. Also, zelda is in there too.

Speaker 2: 30:47

To finish the Triforce, mario and Bowser duh, that's easy. Dante and Virgil, devil May Cry, chris, redfield and Wesker from Resident Evil. I just think that when you have a villain, your game can transcend time, because now you have a face for the reason why the fight is happening.

Speaker 1: 31:09

Two for myself. One the final fantasy was Ida. Okay, from final fantasy eight she's still to this day is one of my favorite villains of all time because she was completely tricked by I forget the boss, the main boss, what was his name? Altamedica or something, altamesia, very good, so I remember she. She was tricked by him and possessed not possessed but taken over. But I remember that fight and that was hard. I got a lot there. She like whooped me over and over again. But the other one is did you play Mass Effect 2?

Speaker 2: 31:46

I have not played Mass Effect yet at all ever. It's one of the major gaps in my gamer history. But I have the Legendary Edition on multiple systems. It's just on the backlog and I haven't made the time for it what was his name?

Speaker 1: 32:04

the elusive man. That's who it was. So he's another one, you like. He just sat in like this room and it was all like the like a son in his background. He just sat there and smoked cigs and like just commanded things. It was amazing. But yeah, sorceress Eda from final fantasy eight.

Speaker 2: 32:26

Okay, oh, okay, I think for me, another memorable one would be Jecht, also transforming, and then all the processes tied up in that which also connects with the hero's journey. There's a stage called Atonement with the Father or the Atonement, and Final Fantasy X has a really neat direct interpretation of how that stage can go and how it can connect into a climactic fight go and how it can connect into a climactic fight, and I love Final Fantasy X for that. So that's. I never played X. I mean it's one of the best ones.

Speaker 2: 33:22

It actually the commercials for X and X-2, those games both came out when I was in high school and I just remember seeing those commercials during sporting events, during wrestling events. They knew their target audience, I was their target audience. I was going to see those commercials on cable television and those commercials were so cinematic. The songs were trendy, it made the world look amazing. The games hold up today visually as far as what you would expect from a PS2 era game. It doesn't look like a PS5 game but it looks like an amazing PS2 game.

Speaker 1: 33:59

What's funny is I haven't looked at gameplay for Final Fantasy VIII in a long time and I remember it looking so amazing.

Speaker 2: 34:07

And I just watched a.

Speaker 1: 34:08

YouTube video. I just watched a YouTube video of the sorceress Ida fight and I was like, oh my God, that looks awful.

Speaker 2: 34:17

Yeah, final Fantasy VIII was very hard to play. Yeah, no, it was hard to play. I never finished it, actually, because I got to one of the disc changes yes, kids, these games on PS1, you got to a certain point in the story and you had to switch discs and I remember switching discs and I got to a fight that was pretty challenging. I probably should backtrack and level up, load my save file from before that fight and level up a little bit. And instead of doing that, I quit and I didn't realize I was never going to come back. But I never did. And it's been 21 years since I abandoned Final Fantasy VIII and never did come back.

Speaker 1: 35:00

Cue the trombone. Wah, wah, wah.

Speaker 2: 35:03

Yeah, but Leon Squall shows up in Kingdom Hearts and that's who that hero is. For me, he helps Sora at Traverse Town and Yuffie's there, aerith's there. It's amazing, I've never beaten a Kingdom Hearts we're gonna talk, we're gonna have episodes about Kingdom Hearts. Marcus, it's. Oh, I am just the prop master today. Everyone you are. I just grabbed a Keyblade, so I am both the undisputed WWE champion and the Keyblade master.

Speaker 1: 35:38

Yeah, all this that would be a fun thing for us to do is like one of these days on the first of the month, let's say February 1st I pick a game for you to play and you pick a game for me to play and we both have to dedicate, let let's say, 10 hours to it in the month, because that's an interesting challenge.

Speaker 2: 35:57

It makes the game interactive.

Speaker 1: 35:58

I like it and then the next month of the first episode, we talk about the game that we played, because mine would be definitely mass effect 2 for you and yours would be whatever do I need to play mass effect 1 in order for mass effect 2 to hit?

Speaker 1: 36:12

no, well, well, you would know, but Mass Effect 2 is still one of my favorite games of all time and that is so good. You wouldn't have to, because they fast forward the story, but you're only going to be playing it like 10 hours, so for me it's okay.

Speaker 2: 36:28

But what if I like the franchise and I can put a lot of streams into these games? I think people would enjoy showing up for that.

Speaker 1: 36:38

But it's yeah. But Mass Effect, well, the problem is Mass Effect 1, even with the remaster it looks good but it still plays clunky where Mass Effect 2 is like that next of the next gen back then I don't know. I quality of mass effect 1 versus mass effect 2 is leaps and bounds I 100 now remember playing the demo for mass effect 2 on my ps3.

Speaker 2: 37:04

Does that sound right? Is that timeline correct?

Speaker 1: 37:07

yeah, yeah okay, xbox 360, greatest system ever.

Speaker 2: 37:11

yeah, I had it sounded like R2-D2.

Speaker 1: 37:15

Yeah, yeah, what. Not only do we have complete different personalities, the best console war between the both of us is going to go on for years, and I love everything about it.

Speaker 2: 37:27

I thought the console war was dead and that we made peace and everyone can just enjoy games the way they want. And then we've done two episodes of this show and we've reignited a fun, loving version of the console wars, where we just dig at each other for 40 minutes and then acknowledge that playing games is fun and that the xbox is the superior system.

Speaker 1: 37:49

You're right, but let me ask you a question. Go taking us back to final fantasy, yeah, in 2025. Does doc prefer the turn-based combat or the action combat?

Speaker 2: 38:07

I actually prefer action-based combat and one of the reasons that a different game but I played recently is Dragon Age the Veil Guard, and that was my first ever Dragon Age game. When that game first released, there were a lot of social media comparisons going on between what it's like to play. Other fantasy world style games that tend to be darker, tend to be more realistic, more pragmatic. Dragon Age the Veil Guard is so optimistic. Okay, just like you were giving credit to Final Fantasy for being optimistic and yes, final Fantasy 16 is a little bit more of that gritty, dark interpretation of what a world can be. But I promise you Final Fantasy 16 ends in a very optimistic place and it's true to what Final Fantasy is in a spiritual sense. And Dragon Age of the Veilguard had that optimism. Baldur's Gate 3 and games like Elden Ring like Baldur's Gate 3, very little optimism, but depending on how you play it. But Elden Ring, no optimism, the world is ruined. Good luck surviving. You tarnished scrub and I think I disagree with that?

Speaker 1: 39:24

No, I disagree. I believe the people are negative, but you, as the tarnished, are positive, because you keep fighting forward and you're doing things in your own way, but you're always finding the way to get through it.

Speaker 2: 39:37

So I don't actually believe that that's so nice. Have you ever lost 5 million runes in one death?

Speaker 1: 39:45

I've never had 5 million runes. The most runes I've ever held at one time was 226,000. Okay.

Speaker 2: 39:51

Everyone make a note. Marcus thinks Elden Ring is optimistic but has never lost 5 million runes in one death. You can't talk, sir, you're right. You have different people talking to you and guiding you across Elden Ring and you can interpret it as you're the one hope, you're the last hope, you're the final shard of that ring that can stand up to all the heresy and restore the Elden Ring. That is a very hopeful mission. I just think that with Final Fantasy you feel closer to the fulfillment of that destiny, even at your worst moment, than you tend to in these other fantasy worlds. I think that it's easier to see that hope and understand it and hold on to it.

Speaker 1: 40:40

Yeah, that's a good answer.

Speaker 2: 40:43

Yeah, I like that. I'm just trying to think are there any loose threads on final fantasy that really belong in this talk? Because we could talk about specific games and this podcast could last an infinite amount of time because there are more than 16 final fantasy games. There's spinoffs, there's. Have you ever played decidia? Nope, oh my gosh. It's a final fantasy fighting game, but it's not like mortal maybe it's not mortal combat.

Speaker 2: 41:13

It's a circular environment with platforms and stuff, and there is one hero and one villain from every final fantasy as the roster no, I don't think I ever played it.

Speaker 1: 41:24

Then there was also final fantasy mystic, mystic, crystal chronicles. No, nope, oh, that's another one.

Speaker 2: 41:33

Yeah, it's also Chocobo Racing GP.

Speaker 1: 41:38

It's so bad, I don't know. Mystic Quest, that's what it is. It was for the Super Nintendo. It came out, I don't know. Oh, here we go 1992. Okay, for Super Nintendo Wii and Wii U.

Speaker 2: 41:54

We must have redid it. Oh my gosh, marcus. I have a Dr Gamology story that belongs in this episode, because it's part of my Dr Gamology origin story.

Speaker 1: 42:05

Okay.

Speaker 2: 42:06

Okay, the first huge presentation that I ever was asked to do at a conference. First huge presentation that I ever was asked to do at a conference. I'd presented before, but never on topics that really mattered to me on the gaming side. The first time I was ever asked to do a topic on video games, I presented on this person who lost thousands of dollars gambling on crystals in Final Fantasy, brave Exvius on their smartphone, which is a game that is discontinued or wrapping up now. But you basically buy loot boxes with these crystals to try to get these characters and add them to your squad. And it was a very fun take on Final Fantasy because it's one of those multiverse kinds of games. Every hero could be added to the newest pack and that's what would cause this person and other players to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars when a new pack would come out. That month, because I have all these heroes that I really like, but Cloud is available now. Month, because I have all these heroes that I really like, but Cloud is available now. So let me drop $1,000 on these crystal loot boxes to try to get Cloud in my party and then so many other heroes.

Speaker 2: 43:21

I talked about this at a gambling conference, mental health conference about gambling. And again, audience does not necessarily know what Final Fantasy is, but I'm talking about what that game is from a practical perspective for the kinds of people they want to help. And that really even though I was Dr Svotor at the time and I was representing Star Wars, the Old Republic, as a gamer all day, every day. I got to talk about Final Fantasy at a psychology conference and then other conferences had people in the audience kind of scouting who can we get for our event. And that is when I started getting brought across the country and getting paid to speak is because of psychology and Final Fantasy and even though I was talking about someone whose life got hurt by this game, people could tell that I was finding the positives in gaming and they wanted to know more about that.

Speaker 1: 44:22

I'm going to tell you a little Dr Gamology origin story too, but it happened just the other day on the news. What they were talking? Yep, they were talking about gaming addiction, oh no, and how parents have to watch out for it and how much is too much video games and blah blah. I just I started talking to myself to the tv and my wife was there, my kids were there and I was just talking and they're like what are you babbling about? And I'm like this is baloney, because if they understood, the kid may play too many video games. But there's a reason why that kid is playing too many video games and it's not that they're addicted to the game. Maybe that their home life is awful and that's the only way they can find happiness, or maybe because they don't understand the real world and they're trying to find themselves through a game world. And my wife looks at me and just goes you've been hanging out with doc way too much but I'm right.

Speaker 2: 45:27

But the fact that you can think about that now makes you right.

Speaker 1: 45:35

And that is so powerful. It's enlightened me because I'll use my own son. So my own son plays Minecraft.

Speaker 1: 45:40

I play it with him and he plays it a lot, right, like he plays hockey. We play outside, we do all the stuff, yeah, but he has no problem getting into one of his worlds and playing for three hours, no problem. And then he'll be calling me in the room or I'll pull out my laptop and sit on his bed and I'll play with him two player and you should see what this six-year-old does with blocks and he creates these worlds and the way he explains it to you is unbelievable. Or he creates a plane floating in the air and makes like a replica plane and with seats inside that he has to use the stair, tread blocks and turn them correctly and he knows that he has to add this one piece and then add the other piece and then he can remove the other piece to complete the thing and it's growth and so many people are closed-minded to that. But also too, and yes, I play video games, but I see it, it's not an addiction, he's doing it because this is his way of creating.

Speaker 2: 46:49

That is an amazing direction for the final leg of our conversation today, and because it has such a mental health angle. This is definitely our road of trials, so we can face that challenge and discover our strengths. When you're describing what Minecraft is right there, I instantly, as the mental health professional here, am thinking about sand tray therapy and play therapy and all the times that I've had kids on the floor in my office with these foam blocks, with these figures, with this tray of sand or shredded paper, creating a scene and helping me understand their world, because I can't go to their living room, but they can build their living room and show me what it's like to see what it's like an hour before bedtime. Right, who's in the room? What kinds of things are they saying? What's it like to be around them? What's your feelings when you're this close to them or this far away from them? And kids can communicate that, even if they aren't putting it into words. Minecraft is connecting with your son and millions of other kids, millions of other adults in a way that is tapping into the desire to build and create and escape into a world where I have an idea and I can make that idea exist.

Speaker 2: 48:07

Okay, that is a power that many in reality do not have, and I believe there is actually an agenda being taught by commercial and societal messages and news outlets. It's very similar to the 1980s, where Dungeons and Dragons has the satanic panic, and video games since the 90s have continued to have this message, which is they're irresponsible, they're lazy, they're childish, they're immoral. We're in a world where almost everything we do is done on screens. Outside of things that require physical interaction, like your job, marcus, you cannot do through a screen the way I imagine your job, but mine, it turns out, you can. Every single job thing I do occurs on a screen. And are we going to say that I have a problem with screen time? I have a problem with workaholism? Call myself out 100%. I wish I played more video games. I really do. I really do, but I work a lot and that's my challenge. Okay, but what I'm seeing in society is if so much of what we do has been converted to screens because it's convenient and it's cost effective, it's also safer.

Speaker 2: 49:39

Okay, your child is at lower risk for many different tragedies sitting in their living room playing Minecraft than they would be doing other things. In fact, my parents raised me out of a stance of fear, honestly Like you're going to get abducted, you're going to get molested, you're going to break a bone, you're going to get influenced by the wrong people. Do you know about peer pressure? Dare program, right, all of the above? None of that's going to hurt me with video games, except maybe Melina kicking me in the face in Mortal Kombat 2. I'll get over it Again, mortal Kombat or if you're Scorpion, you'll get over here.

Speaker 2: 50:26

I can't believe I left that one on the table. Okay, the table Okay. So I propose an alternative explanation for what kids are doing on screens and that perhaps the reason they're playing so much on screens is because play has been outsourced to screens in most situations as well. If you're not playing a sport with other kids, what actually does play look like without a screen? Just what does going to a restaurant look like without giving your child an iPad? Just it's.

Speaker 2: 50:57

This mixed message of parents can watch all the reality shows or binge watch a season of their current show, and that's not screen time, but a child looking at Minecraft for 25 minutes, oh my gosh. Yeah, let people use screens and escape and have an imagination, because I'm telling you, it's not games people that have this perspective are trying to eliminate from society. It's preventing imagination, because it's a lot easier to control someone that doesn't have imagination. You can train them to be exactly what you need them to be, to help your life be what you want to be, and it keeps them in the passenger seat, keeps you in the driver's seat. It's a whole. Would I be able to connect these dots this way? Or would I be paranoid enough to connect these dots this way, if I never started to question shinra in final Fantasy VII, right, the evil corporation that has become the government and the army. They're the bad guys until Sephiroth shows up to become like the universal Satan villain, right?

Speaker 1: 52:04

There's a very Bad, bad, bad guy.

Speaker 2: 52:07

He's the cosmological villain of Final Fantasy VII, but Shinra is the problem Right, and I think that's a really interesting thing too. Bring it back to Final Fantasy is these games give us a metaphor to understand. It's entertainment and it's fun and it's action and it's virtue, and it's good versus evil when you're a child. But when you start to do academic analysis on Final Fantasy, this is storytelling at its literary peak.

Speaker 1: 52:40

Yeah. I have one more question for you.

Speaker 2: 52:45

All right, let's do it.

Speaker 1: 52:46

If I was brand new to Final Fantasy brand new, love it. What would be the first Final Fantasy you tell me to play, go?

Speaker 2: 52:57

Final Fantasy 7 Remake. Okay, I think it takes the best story, which is Final Fantasy 7, and just converts it into modern technology and it expands on it to where you understand it. There is a little bit of a what's the word there? There's a little bit of a ripple there, though it does get very meta in the sense that there are these beings in final fantasy Remake called the Whispers, and every time your character or a character in your party or Sephiroth, tries to do something that did not happen in the original, the Whispers show up to prevent that change and make sure the game keeps going in the original direction. And so there is an additional layer to that story that relies on.

Speaker 2: 53:56

Are you a past player? Are you a legacy player of this story? But I believe, even if all of that goes over your head, it is an amazing game that leads into another amazing game, final fantasybirth and then that will lead into another amazing game, and then you will have a 200-hour experience that gives one of the most powerful fictional stories ever told. Boom yeah, do you have an opinion about that question? I'm really curious.

Speaker 1: 54:30

So it's really hard for me. That question I'm really curious. So it's really hard for me. But if I was talking to almost 42 year old me that's never played one, I would say go play final fantasy 14. The reason is because it doesn't end right like you can commit yourself to this game and if you're like me, you only get 10 hours a week to play a video game if you're lucky, right. So if you only have 10 hours and that's what you do, you commit to that game and it doesn't end so you can always be doing something to make yourself better and to fulfill the gaming gap in your life and get that like check mark. Oh hey, I like I have 15 minutes or 20 minutes, I can just go do a side quest, or I can go do a duty, I can go do a boss fight, I can go do something and you feel fulfilled in being able to game, so you're happy. You know what I mean and that's what's nice about an MMO.

Speaker 2: 55:33

Also, you create your character. I think that's a really powerful gaming experience in terms of psychological connection to the game, and there's actually research that I read as a doc student that led to a lot of what I believe in. What I've found now that is, watching Mario die on the screen when you're holding the controller and it's your fault is not as impactful as watching your character that you created die on the screen and you're holding the controller and it's your fault, because that character on some level, is a part of you.

Speaker 1: 56:09

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 56:09

Yeah, and also I love that answer for for 14. I love the answer for seven people listening. If you have a different opinion for you, your opinion's right too. There is no wrong answer to this question, except some answers are more difficult than others. But if you love a certain entry in any game franchise and that's a good starting point that you would recommend to people and you really mean it, you have good will, intention, that you want a person to enjoy the game and this is the one you think they should start with. That's just a sign of how much you love the game and your desire to share that with somebody.

Speaker 1: 56:50

Share it with us in the Discord. Yeah, very soon, marcus will have his own text channel. It'll be called the Sidebar and you can get a hold of me or, if not, in all the other awesome channels in the Discord, because we want to hear your thoughts and when you think we're wrong, make sure you tell us. So, doc, what are we talking about?

Speaker 2: 57:13

next week the easy thing would be to stick with square enix. Got cloud right there behind me, got sora right there behind me. Easy choice. But we don't do this journey to make things easy. Marcus, I think it would be really cool for us to talk about the Legend of Zelda.

Speaker 1: 57:36

Oh boy, whoa, I did not expect that one. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages, I'm just, yeah, gear up, I'm sweating. This is going to be a good one.

Speaker 2: 57:50

Yeah, I think it's going to be a good one. Okay, so I want to also just point out I added something. I went in and made sure all the podcast stuff in our platform is set up good enough for our return in the way I want it. But we're going to keep tweaking it until all the listings are the way we need it to be.

Speaker 2: 58:21

But because of my connection in research and training mental health professionals, but also being a lifelong gamer, that goes by the name Dr Gamology, I added a sponsor to our list and I want everybody who listens to our show to know about the sponsor, because they're doing great work and I'm a part of it, and that is KindBridge Behavioral Health, and that is KindBridge Behavioral Health, and so what they do is they're a nationwide telehealth network that specializes in video games and gambling things and other behavioral mental health issues that a lot of times are talked about negatively. But I am there and our clinical staff are trained to talk about them in whatever way the person doing the therapy needs them to. So if you have a warmth in your heart for video games and you say I want my mental health to improve, they're not going to spend time in the session talking to you about screen time and doubting what video games are for you. It's going to be about making your life work better for you, and so they support me, they believe in me. They got my back in the mental health arena.

Speaker 2: 59:12

We're doing big things to change the way psychology and mental health works, and so I've listed them as a sponsor for the show. Also, if these conversations sound fun to you and you're looking for some great people to play online games with, check out AIE at aie-guildorg at aie-guildorg. Also, if you're not already, subscribe to Marcus on YouTube. That's MarcusB814. And he's going in there to play games like Final.

Speaker 1: 59:43

Fantasy.

Speaker 2: 59:44

Yeah, final Fantasy 16, elden Ring, whatever. It is Really good time. Support his channel. Also, give me a follow on Twitch. I'd love to talk with you one-on-one, person-to-person while I'm playing a game, and just what are your thoughts about the show? Do you have anything to add? Marcus, would you like to send us off next stage of the journey?

Speaker 1: 1:00:07

Yeah, I just want to say I have one last quest for everyone to collect for the day, want to say I have one last quest for everyone to collect for the day, do or do not.

Speaker 2: 1:00:21

There is no try and continue the journey. That's not from final fantasy, thank you.