The Gaming Persona

Behind Every Victory Screen: The Emotional Journey of Mastering Difficult Games

• Daniel Kaufmann Ph.D. | Dr. Gameology • Season 5 • Episode 16

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MarcusB814 and Dr. Gameology dive deep into the emotional highs of conquering difficult games, specifically the journey to becoming Elden Lord after two years. They explore how different game styles create unique psychological experiences and why certain victories feel so meaningful.

• MarcusB814 shares his emotional reaction to finally beating Elden Ring after two years
• The psychological difference between MMO challenges versus single-player games
• Why the moment before victory can feel more powerful than the victory itself
• Discussion of Final Fantasy XIV's steep learning curve and content structure
• Frustrations with open-world game design in Breath of the Wild
• How Expedition 33 is revolutionizing turn-based combat
• The importance of finding games that connect with your personal play style
• Dr. Gameology introduces his new D20 mental health topics stream feature

Check out Dr. Gameology's book "The Gamer's Journey" available at drgameology.com to learn more about the hero's journey in gaming.


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Thanks for Listening, and Continue The Journey!

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Gaming Persona Podcast. I'm MarcusB814. I'm joined by my esteemed best friend, Dr Gameology, and we're here to talk about video games and sidebars. Why? Because that's what I do. I'm here for the sidebar, he's here to drop psychology on you, and this is our show right now. It's the first time the air conditioner's been on all year and it's chilly, so I put on a light hoodie.

Speaker 2:

That sounds so nice. It's always running the AC where I am.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but in the winter when you're like running the AC and it's negative six outside at my house.

Speaker 2:

It's May 8th, marcus. Yeah, we just had Revenge of the Fifth, and May the Fourth be with you, I know.

Speaker 1:

It was a great day, hmm.

Speaker 2:

I got called out by someone in my community because I streamed Expedition 33 on May the 4th and I just was very honest in my response. I didn't even realize it was May the 4th, because it has been so long since Star Wars gave me any joy. Marcus, I woke up and had no idea. Have you watched Andor? No, had no idea. Have you watched? And? Or? No, none of it ever. I watched season one. It took me four attempts of watching the first episode before I finally was able to push through and watch the whole season. Okay, it's hard. The force is absent and I need the force, marcus.

Speaker 1:

Well, I watched episode one of season two. I haven't even watched it yet, but the first season was good.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I did like it, but it was hard to get into for me.

Speaker 1:

I'm working on my wiggle why? I don't know, it warms me up, it's chilly.

Speaker 2:

Oh right, you got to keep your blood flowing so you don't freeze over and die.

Speaker 1:

Well, I'm not going to freeze over and die. I should turn off Discord. So it's beeping.

Speaker 2:

Beep, beep, beep. Marcus is too social. This is what video games do to extroverts it just gives them an endless supply of people to chit-chat with over nothing.

Speaker 1:

Well no, it's just yeah anyway. Well, let's get into this. So where do I even start?

Speaker 2:

Well, if I was your parent, Marcus, I would accuse you right now of all your fake friends distracting you from being a responsible adult.

Speaker 1:

Tomorrow's my last day at my job.

Speaker 2:

Oh, you quitter, Congrats.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and then Monday I start everybody's like oh, you're not taking a week off. I'm like I went just went on vacation, like three weeks ago, so I don't need another week off. And I feel like if you're going somewhere on vacation, it's worth it to like take the time off, but if you're not going vacation, it's worth it to take the time off, but if you're not going anywhere it's kind of a waste to take a whole week off, because by the middle of the week you're bored, mm-hmm, you know.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, if work is a significant part of your identity and you don't have work, then you have no identity.

Speaker 1:

Well, no, it's not. I'm just saying I can only just be sitting at home doing nothing for so long before I'm bored, you know.

Speaker 1:

I take a day off and, okay, I relax for a little while, I chill, I make a nice like breakfast or lunch or whatever, and I'm like all right, what am I going to do? And then I play video games for a couple hours. But then it's like eh, and I'm like all right, what am I going to do? And then I play video games for a couple hours, but then it's like eh, I got to go outside, I got to go do something.

Speaker 2:

Got to go touch grass, Marcus. I touch grass every day.

Speaker 1:

My kid beats the living shit out of me in my yard every single day because he thinks he's the WWE champion, but now that he has the belt he won't put it up. He says our matches there's a non-title match Because he doesn't want to lose it. Well, what else? All right. So something wild happened to me today Not today, this week I beat Elden Ring, so I can happily say I'm Elden Lord. It was a really special moment. I'm going to talk about this a lot today because it took me literally.

Speaker 1:

So two years ago, at PAX East 2023, I was there and we were myself and A-Trax were waiting to play this game. It was called like Crime City. The developer was there, we had an appointment, we were going to be playing the gate, like we had a free, like a guided demo and like talk about the game, set up the recorder, the whole nine and then, after everything, I had never hit the record button. So that was a fail. Oh, it was awful. I felt like terrible, but anyway. So we were standing there and there was this like I'm gonna say like a 32 inch or 40 inch tv with a controller, xbox, and it had elden ring and I was like, why not never played it. So I played it and it's.

Speaker 1:

There was a guy just standing there and there was a. It was by a grace, and I didn't even know what it was. So I just started running. I don't remember the weapon I had. It was some kind of sword.

Speaker 1:

And there was a guy just standing there and there was a it was by a grace and I didn't even know what it was. So I just started running. I don't remember the weapon I had, it was some kind of sword, and there was a giant there and I was like no problem, and there's a. There's a YouTube short of me doing it. And it's absolutely my fault why I got demolished right, absolutely my fault why I got demolished and fault why I got demolished right, absolutely my fault why I got demolished. And I looked at I was just like this is not fair. This is not fair and it's, it was a video. So it was two years ago and two years later, through all of my ups and downs of playing the game, quitting the game, rage, quitting the game, coming back to the game, falling in love with the game to beat the game and what I mean by that is beating the final bosses, cause it's kind of two for one Radagon and the Elden beast and getting the final ending. It was really an emotional journey for me.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

There's a video of it and I need to clip. I need to like put the video in and just clip the final poll and like the ending of me and my emotions, because I want to kind of capture that. But my point is it was two years of, I'm going to say, blood, sweat and tears, but it wasn't really anything like that. It was two years of grinding through and realizing how good the game is. To get to that point I legit was shaking.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it was actually really cool to watch the video when you shared it with me, marcus. Yeah, it was actually really cool to watch the video when you shared it with me, marcus, because you demonstrated a lot of the things that I'm always talking about, about what games can do that make them matter in our lives. So for me, I was like an emotional vampire watching that video, like I was just feeding off of that energy and feeling it with you. Like I was just feeding off of that energy and feeling it with you, because I remember the first time I won the game too, and I wasn't recording it or anything, I was just playing alone on my computer. And I remember what it felt like to realize.

Speaker 2:

So it's not when you see the boss go down. That is one of the most powerful emotions that I can even describe, marcus. It's the moment when you realize that you've got the hit and if you push that button it's over right. Like so it's not the, it's realizing that if you just do it right, one more split second of your life. That's what is intoxicating to me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I, I agree with you and I remember it took me a week of fighting Radagon and like learning it and like realizing I can do it and all these things. I feel like I'm that that video of me winning is going to end up in one of your like classes or seminars someday classes or seminars someday.

Speaker 2:

The ironic thing, marcus, is the YouTube video that I'm stalled on that I wish I was done with is the same exact thing, but it's me fighting Sephiroth on dynamic difficulty in Final Fantasy VII Rebirth. It's the exact same concept and so the difference is your video is your live reaction. The video I'm working on is more of a analysis of how this works and why it happens, so the webcam part is me analyzing it, not live. Sure, you know, for people listening to the podcast, hopefully in the next week or two that video will be out on youtube. But the thing about tough boss fights and about ending stories that you've been working on for a long time is you really do have an investment in achieving something and the doubt also of whether you ever will and when. When you break through. That's such a powerful achievement-based feeling.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so I agree with you, and I had no idea what I was going to do. I had no idea how I was going to feel. I had no idea what it was going to look like when I did it. But the things that happened to me because of Elden Ring is it got me to start playing Elden Ring on like a committed basis. It got me to start making content again. You know, I'm not streaming on a regular schedule. I just turn on the YouTube I'm not on Twitch, I'm not on any of that and then I make some shorts and I'm not streaming on a regular schedule. I just turn on the YouTube I'm not on Twitch, I'm not on any of that and then I make some shorts and I'm having a lot of fun doing it.

Speaker 1:

And what I realized is I'm still really bad at the game. Yeah, and I don't care how bad I am, because I beat it Right and it feels good to do it, because I worked at it for two years. It was like a two year culmination of emotion popping out and you know a tracks shout out to a tracks. You know he was there, standing right there recording me two years ago. He was there when they him, nick Ryu, were in our Discord telling me you gotta roll better, just try rolling. Oh, you gotta hit him. You know what I mean. Like just trolling me hard and like in my weakest state when I just rage quit the game. And like I legit rage quit and two years later he's there to watch me beat the game, which is a pretty cool feeling, because I never thought I would do it.

Speaker 1:

Need to do the DLC to feel completionist. I didn't do all the quests, I didn't kill. I only killed one dragon in the whole game because I could care less about a dragon. I only killed one dragon in the whole game because I could care less about a dragon. It doesn't do anything for me to slay a dragon, just saying, but I still beat the game. Yeah, so my point is all this is I feel like I've completed it and now I can play other games.

Speaker 2:

I feel like I've unlocked freedom well, you had freedom when you rage, quit too yeah, but it always drew me back.

Speaker 1:

I don't. I don't like losing, you know what I'm saying, and it always drew me back. I don't like losing. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, and quitting is not really me, and I just talked about quitting my job, but I'm trying to think of the right words to say this, because I've been thinking about this episode all week and I didn't know how it was going to come out and I feel like I'm not explaining myself well, but I didn't quit. I got stressed I would take two or three week breaks from the game because I knew when I logged in I had to fight a hard boss. And you know, on a day where I'm just tired and I just want to sit on the couch, elden Ring is not the game to just turn on and play it.

Speaker 2:

Well, it can be but, not in the situation that you're describing, where you know the next thing is a tough boss fight.

Speaker 1:

Right, because that's how I usually play and, honestly, like when you're playing around like limb grave, the weeping peninsula, learning of the lakes, the game's pretty easy. Well, back up, once you've put in 50 hours and you've learned how to play the game, it's fairly an easy area. Caleb sucks right, caleb just. But when you start getting into like the capital and the Altus plateau and all that stuff, and then, oh my God, forget about the mountaintops to the giants, everything kills you, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1:

But when you learn the game, you realize you've always said this you realize the game is intended to be beat.

Speaker 1:

You realize the game is intended to be beat, but once when you're, when you're going through that learning curve of never playing this type of game, you feel like powerless and then you achieve a big win. You know it's, it's monumental. So I will have doc link it in the chat to the video where I do it and I'll I'll have them put the timestamp in for my kill so you guys can see it. But now that it's over, right, I'm going to fight Millennia. That's no problem. But now I'm talking about like, okay, now I have the freedom, I'm going to play a new game. What am I going to play?

Speaker 1:

I own Dark Souls 3, so I started messing around with that. Okay, I'm definitely like 100% going to play Final Fantasy XIV because I want to finish the worst story ever, because I'm going to give it a shot for the second part story ever, because I'm going to give it a shot for the second part. The Realm Reborn is the dumbest. Like. Swtor's class story is so top tier that going to Realm Reborn in Final Fantasy 14 is just dumb. Run out of the room, go kill two things. Come back, talk to this guy, marcus.

Speaker 2:

I didn't realize that you thought Star Wars Episode 4, a New Hope, was stupid I didn't say that you did. You just said a roam reborn was the worst video game story ever. But it's just a new hope with a final fantasy coat of paint, yeah, but there's no words.

Speaker 1:

Everything is.

Speaker 2:

There's no everything you know, oh, you don't like reading your story. I like I.

Speaker 1:

I'm a. I'm a. I'm a greedy gamer. I don't want to read my story, like I want, like that's why I love swotor so much. And they like the conversation. Even world of warcraft has conversation, like some of it is tech space fine, but they want me to get involved in this quest of this guy telling me to go save his dog and come back and give him his, his dog tag and then, as soon as I'm done with that, oh could you go get me a glass of milk, come on back and you spend your time running around. It's just dumb. It's I call it dumb stretch content. You know what I mean. Purposely made a thousand quests because when in MMO, people grind as soon as it comes out, like anybody that complains that a realm reborn as an entry story to like there's not enough content for an entry story in an mmo. It ain't final fantasy 14.

Speaker 2:

There's plenty of content might be dumb stretch content, but it's there's plenty of content one of the toughest things about streaming final fantasy 14 for me is you can literally do a two or three hour stream on a certain part of that story and end up casting zero magic spells, because the entire time you're just running around doing scenes, having people talk to you and then playing final fantasy fedex simulator where it's. It is like take a carrot to this person and bring a glass of wine to this person and it is challenging to enjoy that at times. The reason final fantasy 14 is a great story is because once you get past the part, think about like a roller coaster, marcus, you're on the part you're complaining about the part where you're on the chains, getting like dragged up to the top.

Speaker 2:

And it is a very tall drag all the way up to the top. It's awful Once it starts going, and especially once you start getting content unlocked that you can play with other people. Then it becomes the fun part of what an MMO can be Right. And does Final Fantasy XIV balance that experience? No, I really don't think they do to the story that they want to tell, and it's such a long story that does not have any editing that you end up doing a lot of those fetch quests and a lot of those unvoiced cut scenes. It's very hard to believe. All of it is important.

Speaker 1:

Right, so you're saying it better than me, but my point is I know there's a light at the end of the tunnel, but my point is I know there's a light at the end of the tunnel, but it's such a drag to get there. Yeah, the game is so boring for me right now, and the other thing okay, so I'm gonna back it up just skip the cut scenes then and get to the part where you can play.

Speaker 2:

Do I just space bar? Well, there's no space bar.

Speaker 1:

You have to skip the whole thing yeah, you skip the whole thing, like any conversation in a like, in a quest. I try to skip it as best as I can like. Yeah, the other side of that yeah, I turn on your what.

Speaker 2:

What's your go-to music playlist got in it for, like, when you're gaming?

Speaker 1:

but you don't need.

Speaker 1:

I never need nothing beats, ah well, okay, but uh, but what I'm trying to say, doc, is the other side of final fantasy 14. That's tough. Is that? Like I don't care about, like I'm gonna be a tank, I don't care about being a dancer or a magic guy or a new job, like i't care. The game forces you to start another job to be able to get experience points, to be able to level up, because I'm over-leveled for the content that I'm doing, but I'm almost at the level of unlocking a raid, but in the story content I'm 20 levels underneath that. So the game wants you to go backwards and level your character, start a a new job to level a new character, to get it up to speed. So you're getting experience and you kind of stay with the story and build. It's not the type of player I am. I'm a one guy player. Like give me a player, I can give me a character and let me play. Sounds like you need to just.

Speaker 2:

You need to just buy the unlock for the story and go straight to dawn trail okay, but here's the problem.

Speaker 1:

Here's the problem. A good friend of mine his name is dr gamology also told me that the game is going to teach me how to do things that you can't just skip it, because when you go into a raid in dawn trail, they're and they're going to expect you to remember a mechanic or remember something from a realm rewards raid and you don't know Trail. And they're going to expect you to remember a mechanic or remember something from a Realm Rewards raid and you don't know it and you're wiping the group. They're going to be like bro, didn't you do this? No, I didn't. You got to teach me. We don't want to See you later. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1:

I don't want to be that guy. I'm going to go back to Elden Ring. You don't do it half-ass, you just got to do it. I'm gonna complain like a whiny bitch, but I am committing to be a realm reborn so I never have to do that dumb story again, just like I. If I never in my life ever have to do the smuggler story in star Wars, the old Republic, I will be thrilled.

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh, the trooper story sucks too.

Speaker 1:

The trooper is better than the smuggler.

Speaker 2:

The Republic is such a waste of time.

Speaker 1:

Okay, I will. Well, let's argue. The Jedi story is pretty good. You're, you're come in like you like there's a bunch of bad shit going on. Some people turn on you. You get your first lightsaber. I don't care who you are, when you get your first lightsaber, that's an awesome feeling oh sure, also the jedi knight story is the hero's journey.

Speaker 2:

They even call you the herald at the beginning, first planet. The Herald of change right Is a part of the monomyth structure. That's what signals the person to receive the call to adventure and step out and go to save the galaxy. Like it is, unapologetically the hero's story.

Speaker 1:

Can I ask you a question? It's just more fun being a Sith, what? What's the hero's journey?

Speaker 2:

We don't have enough time on our recording schedule for that, but if you are interested, there is an award winning book that I wrote, called the gamer's journey, that you can purchase from the Dr Gameology merch store at Dr Gameologycom, and I would love for all of you to get your copy and to know what the hero's journey is.

Speaker 1:

Oh my God, that's too funny. Oh man that that. That was, that was made my day.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean all the podcasts I listened to. They plug their products all the time. I have no shame Like I Podcasts I listen to. They plug their products all the time. I have no shame Like I got to sell these, otherwise there's no point of even doing it, right.

Speaker 1:

I want to make a t-shirt or a hat logo where half of it is your logo and half of it's mine, and like, yeah, like I have some merch ideas for later. I think we're going to do. We're going to do big things, but anyway, I guess for me, have you ever played a game where you wanted to be into it but it was really hard, but once you actually got past that threshold like there's that invisible threshold, and then all of a sudden it just clicks all the time. Okay, that's how I feel with final fantasy 14.

Speaker 2:

Like, there's that invisible threshold and then all of a sudden it just clicks All the time.

Speaker 1:

Okay, that's how I feel with Final Fantasy XIV. Like I love the combat, I love the graphics. I think the idea of going back into raiding again in dungeons or whatever they're called yeah, flashpoints, whatever, whatever there may be called Like all of that, I am a true MMO player. I love it. But I just haven't found, I just haven't crossed that threshold yet with Final Fantasy 14. Yeah, fair enough.

Speaker 1:

But I'm gonna circle way back to what you said a little while ago about streaming it. This is a hot take. I do not think that MMOs are good stream games, because Nick said this to me years ago he goes. Marcus, I love that you're passionate about streaming, I love that you're passionate about rating, but can I tell you the truth and I said sure he goes when you're rating it just looks like a bunch of flashy dots and little people running around.

Speaker 1:

It makes no sense to anybody who doesn't play the game. It's really hard for me to watch you play that and it stuck with me all this time. And it's right, cause then I'll go into, like somebody's stream and watch them rating or playing it and if I don't know that raid'm like makes no sense this isn't content. But when you're in expedition 33 and you're playing the rock monster which I watched happen and like all I kept going was rock lobster, you know what I mean and and I would I could get into it because the menu showed like your attacks and like the different spells or whatever you were doing, and you can see and understand that. Hey boss, here I'm fighting the boss, right, anybody can watch that and get into it. Where, if it's an over-the-top view of you raiding and there's this like worm wiggling its arms and then there's just flashing lights everywhere and people are freaking out like people are talking about watch out for the blue dot, oh, watch out for this it's.

Speaker 2:

It's not, it's not easy to understand for a non-raider or something like that in the game yeah, I think a lot of the reason why my channel turned around and started getting me places is because, as much as I like Final Fantasy XIV, it's because I decided to play Dragon Age, the Veil Guard, silent Hill 2, metaphor, refantasio and eventually found my way recently into Expedition 33.

Speaker 2:

Because those games you can look at them and understand what is happening, you can feel the emotion, you can feel my tension.

Speaker 2:

And if I'm doing a Savage raid in Final Fantasy XIV and that's my stream content and those are my YouTube shorts and I try to capture the big moments. I might have 12 seconds where I make five really good split second decisions, but to a person who doesn't know that fight, it just looks like I moved and I didn't die and I'm excited about something, but it's not clear what. Or if those five decisions go bad and I die terribly in that 12 seconds Again, it's like unless I make it funny, because dying in video games is pretty hilarious If I make it funny, that short can still work. But if it's like if it comes down to a random person seeing Dr Gameology flash through their swiping up and down and they're like, oh, I don't even know what I just saw, so they're going to give me three seconds of their energy if that and move on. And I didn't connect with anyone because the game is too dense. It doesn't articulate what is happening on screen to the casual audience, right.

Speaker 1:

And I'm with you. We're to the casual audience, right, and I'm with you. We're saying the same thing and it's nothing against any creators who play and raid in MMOs. But I connect better to a content creator who's playing Pokemon or Mortal Kombat or Expedition 33, or when you're fighting X boss in Final Fantasy VII Rebirth.

Speaker 2:

You know what I mean.

Speaker 1:

That I can understand what you're doing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, if you compare the footage of a Final Fantasy VII Rebirth boss fight with an MMO boss fight, even if they're both complicated, the story-based game is easier to understand.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so we're saying and this podcast episode is kind of turning into the emotions you're playing during a story game. Yeah, you know, and that's my point here is where, like it took me a while to get into the Elden Ring or now Final Fantasy 14, that because I have to do it. But I'm also want to play Star Wars Jedi Survivor because I never played it. I also want to play Star Wars Jedi Survivor because I never played it. I also want to play all of these other games.

Speaker 2:

Then don't play Final Fantasy 14, Marcus.

Speaker 1:

No, no, no, no, no. You're missing my point. I'm I need to play it because it's that game that's lingering in the background that I need to get to the point where you tell me the story is good, because I need to see what this game can be.

Speaker 2:

But I've played a Realm Reborn on four different characters for different reasons. I like a Realm Reborn. I think that that's the part of the game where it's simple enough that you can play it and enjoy it and not feel any anxiety going into the content Once you hit a certain point and I don't know where this point is, because I've only made it there once I have one end game character. So there's a lot of content that I've only done one time. Okay, but A Realm Reborn, I have familiarity, muscle memory. I start a dungeon and I instantly know exactly what I'm in for. The other stuff. It's like have I done this before? And it feels new. It's like, no, you've actually done this one seven times, but it's so hard.

Speaker 2:

Final Fantasy 14 is a hard video game and if you're a Savage Raider listening to me, just know I've only killed like three Savage bosses my whole life. That's not what I'm saying is hard. I'm saying that it expects you to live that game and there is a point with their goal of making each expansion harder than the previous one and building on that knowledge that I just feel when I'm playing Dawn Trail and Endwalker and Shadowbringers, I feel like I'm not the intended audience for that game, even though I love things in the story more than any other games I've played. The story is magnificent.

Speaker 2:

It's just very hard to play because it causes anxiety for me In a way that Elden Ring doesn't. Because I'm the five-time, five-time, five-time, five-time, you know, like Booker T, like I've beaten Elden Ring and I know what to expect, it doesn't cause anxiety in me anymore. Even when I'm stuck on a boss, it's like, okay, I'm going to keep playing this until I get it. Final Fantasy 14 makes me feel straight up stupid, because my friends that play it more than me are so good at handling what that game throws at you. They just feel it, they know it, they see the markers on the ground and they just move correctly. For me, I get one shot and one shot and one shot and getting one shot in boss fights.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but you're talking about Savage Raid one shots.

Speaker 2:

I'm talking about regular story mode, marcus. They still one shot you. That's the mechanic of how they make the MMO boss and MMO boss is every boss seems to have certain things that if you have two damage markers on you from doing mechanics incorrectly, the next thing that hits you is going to kill you, no matter from full health or whatever. It's hard. It does legitimately cause me to question whether I belong in the game. In story mode games, it's all about me. It's not about the other seven players and it's not about it's not as much about repetitions and memorizing specific things. It's like your instincts can carry you through more of the game process than in an MMO. Mmos you have to practice.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I, I, I completely agree, and you know I used to be the super social gamer and I only was social. But I have found myself that I'm it's if I don't win an Elden Ring, it's not your fault, because you didn't heal me, it's because I didn't roll or I didn't do the mechanic right. You know what I mean? I was in like we were watching me do Dark souls 3. It's the first boss and he's annihilating me. Why? Because I'm rolling, like it's elden ring, not a game that's older and the the the roll delay is bigger. The mechanic is different. Like you need to, you see, move. You need to roll a half a second before his arm comes all the way down. The mechanic is different, but it's only up to me.

Speaker 1:

But at the same time, I have that commitment to where, like, I have to play final fantasy 14. I got to do it just so I can get through that and, like, go to the next step, cause, honestly, I miss rating, I miss doing that stuff in in this game. There's rates, like in the story content, right, and that is exciting to me. Yeah, there's different kinds too, and what's one game that you played forever ago that you played and you got. I don't want to say the word stuck, but got to a point where you're like I can't play this game. It's too hard, I can't get into the story. I just don't feel this game is connecting with me.

Speaker 2:

The Legend of Zelda, breath of the Wild.

Speaker 1:

Ooh, interesting.

Speaker 2:

Tell me why? Because it's everything about video games that I hate.

Speaker 1:

Hey, so everybody listening to the Gaming Persona? Wasn't that an in-depth reason from the doc?

Speaker 2:

Everybody give him a high five. I don't. I don't like open worlds. I don't like weapons that break. I don't like I. I don't like questing without quest lists. I don't like maps without objectives. I don't that's how I didn't. Elden Ring has a map with the gold line on it.

Speaker 1:

There, it is Okay yeah.

Speaker 2:

Like Elden Ring. I felt like I. I have made the comparison of breath of the wild and Elden Ring on this podcast before. Maybe not with you, I know for sure I talked about previous.

Speaker 1:

You know, yeah, that Jenny girl, yeah, yeahny girl yeah, yeah, she's, she's amazing.

Speaker 2:

I know I've talked with her about this elden ring is more compelling to me yeah, elden ring is more compelling to me as a video game and I love zelda. I love ocarina of time and twilight princess so much. Those are two of my favorite games of all time and I, I just I missed the structure. I I missed link, having different items that he can use to navigate through things. I felt like all of his inventory is generic, in breath of the wild, like there's no hookshot and that's such a big letdown to me, like the hookshot is essential to being link. So there's just a lot of things in it where it's like this zelda game uses the name zelda but it wasn't made for me. But I have beaten it.

Speaker 2:

There was a time two years ago where I just was like I'm gonna going to find a guide, I'm going to use my phone and my other screen on my computer or whatever it is that I'm sitting next to. I'm going to turn this game into what I need it to be in order for me to kill Beast Ganon, and I did. I forced it to be the story that I needed it to be by tuning out all the open world and just creating objectives. Sure, and and and. So I did that. I try to do that with tears of the kingdom and have not succeeded in that same way. It's just so massive of a game I haven't figured out how to simplify it to where I can focus and enjoy it.

Speaker 2:

Also, I do not like building things marcus so yeah, tears of the kingdom is a big problem for me yeah, I can.

Speaker 1:

I can see that I don't want to.

Speaker 2:

I won't. I don't want to go around the map looking for five specific types of things to build a wing vehicle that I can only use one time. I hate it. Once the game introduced that, I was like oh, I think I'm done.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I see what you're saying because I agree. The reason why I didn't beat Breath of the Wild is because one, I got lost and two, I don't like weapons that break.

Speaker 2:

I don't like weapons that break at all.

Speaker 1:

It's like did you ever play the Fallout games?

Speaker 2:

Again for like 45 minutes. Yes, Thank you, yep.

Speaker 1:

So you and I are on the same page here with that, here with that, and I agree with you on the complete open world, giving you four dots of the dungeons you have to go to, but that's it. It did nothing for me because it's, uh, but the same thing with elden ring, just for the record, like I didn't do a lot of the quests because there's no, you don't know they exist.

Speaker 1:

Or you talk to somebody and they're talking about their uncle's, brother's, cousin's sister that lives next to a church in the northwest building of the northwest town, in this snowy world, and you're like where the fuck is that? And then 70 hours later, you find this guy leaning against this bush in the snowy world going well, you met my sister 70 hours ago. Too bad, she died. Fuck you Quest over, you know what I mean. It's like what and they don't give you any of. They don't give you any of that information. It's not like there's a quest log somewhere where you can go back, and it's almost like I want to go back to play the game again and actually play it that way you could. There's new game plus right journey to continue the journey.

Speaker 2:

Play it that way you could. There's New Game Plus Right Journey 2. Continue the journey. Wait, did I just end the episode no?

Speaker 1:

You fucked with me. Hey, you know what I'm not going to? Pax East, which is this weekend, starts today. You know what really stinks Is? I just found out Elden Ring Night Rain has a big booth there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that would have been cool. I had someone in my Discord message me that they saw a cool mental health talk and they thought of me. I was like, yeah, I'm not at that. One this year Could have been me. And they're like, oh, you're not here, so, nope, I'm not there. I had too much travel already this week. It just did not fit into my life. Also, the beginning of May, when you're a parent with a high schooler, you have AP exams. If you're their ride to school, it's kind of important that you're at home. So it's tough, but you know he can't be in high school forever, so Pax East will be in my future someday, didn't it used to be in February? My life was so much easier when it was in February.

Speaker 1:

I think it was March.

Speaker 2:

It was always in March.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, this is the latest. It was, but I thought about it. Okay, so real talk. I was going to go to PAX on Sunday with my son, but this Sunday is Mother's Day weekend. There's a zero chance I'm doing that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, what are they doing, but they don't care. That's crazy.

Speaker 1:

Well, no, it's. They're just, they're appealing to a different crowd. Like it would be cool Now if my wife was a gamer. That'd be a cool Mother's Day, yeah, you know what I mean. Like hey, hey, let's go check this out, you know. But she's not so we just next year, I'll go. Next year my son will be seven, yeah, seven, and we'll go, and yeah, anyway. So the moral of my story is I'm excited to commit to games and I have some games that I want to complete, and I'm enjoying making content again, can I? That's so great. I have a question for you, though. That's so great. I have a question for you, though. Yeah, what's it like flying to Seattle for one day?

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh, I have been paying for it all week. Marcus, I was so jet-lagged yesterday, and when I put the podcast up last night because I do that on Wednesday nights I had very little sleep going into Thursday morning, so I had to wake up, take my son to school, sleep in. I didn't wake up in time for my stream, so I did my first meeting of the day for work, and then I decided to stream over my lunch break instead, so I flip-flopped a little bit of my time so that I could still have a stream today. It worked out fine, got a lot of new followers, had some good chat, but more people work when I stream at lunchtime, so sometimes the chat's really quiet and it feels a little bit alone. But I saw people there had some channels rate into me, so it was still nice.

Speaker 2:

Expedition 33 is kind of a hard game, and I haven't lowered the difficulty to story yet because I'm still trying to push through normal. But I'm also getting lost in the maps and there's no clear indicator of where I'm trying to go, so I'm running in circles a lot, and that's frustrating me. I just gotta get through it. So I have a question. The thing about seattle, though, is you lose time when you come back east, and so dinner time does not feel like dinner time. Sleep time does not feel like sleep time. You don't need lunch anymore, and I'm trying to get back to being the normal version of me.

Speaker 1:

Okay, I get that. Let me ask you a question about expedition 33. Sure, do you watch a video, any videos on YouTube, to be like, hey, like I'm lost in planet, like white shadow.

Speaker 2:

No way.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

I don't, I'm playing it, just completely me I don't care if I get stuck and people need to leave because oh, this loser's stuck, then they weren't, oh, they weren't meant to be with me for this journey.

Speaker 1:

Anyway, nope, I don't mean it like that. I I'm sorry. I meant it as in, so you're not super frustrated. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2:

I was mildly annoyed today, but I was still able to talk through it and just be like I ran in a circle again.

Speaker 2:

You know, just kind of like self-deprecating humor or making fun of yourself just making fun of me in the situation you you know, like not being mean to me and definitely not being mean to the game. I do think most games like the last of us, part 2, final fantasy 16 they have mechanics in them where you can press the right stick down and something will light up that shows you the direction you're supposed to be going, like the camera will pan over and give you a hint of what you're supposed to be aiming for.

Speaker 2:

I can't figure out that Expedition 33 has that. So, as a result, it's all about my eyeballs noticing things and I just don't notice the things I need to notice the way these maps work and the terrains work. Don't notice the things I need to notice the way these maps work and the terrains work. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So I do end up spending a lot of extra time in every map zone, but that's good in a turn-based game because you're going to level up, yeah, but I still am getting wiped out very fast from the enemies I'm facing. So they have balanced the game in a way that it is pretty unforgiving. I'm sure story mode this does not apply, but my dodge is, the first half hour to hour of my stream are so bad that I just am taking all these hits to the face and you can't you can't win that way.

Speaker 1:

No, I, I'm with you, you know it's. Can you change the difficulty on the fly? Yeah, you can move it up or down at any time, so I almost challenge you to when you get a running in a circle, switch it to story mode so you can just breeze through and get to where you're going.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I could do that. That's how I look at it at least Especially if there's mobs that I've already killed two or three times. Every time you rest at a save, they're like flags of light. Right, you find a save flag save.

Speaker 2:

They're like flags of light. Right, you find a save flag and you, every time you rest, your whole party gets full health again. But the enemies respond. It's kind of similar to meditating in jedi fallen order right, like everything stays dead until you save or you spend your skill points, and then the stormtroopers you already killed are back. So if you, if you never save and you don't need that full heel, then things stay dead and you don't have to worry about it. You can run around free. But also I don't want to be running around where all my people are at like 25% health, cause that's going to mean the next fight is going to be very tough, cause I I have to play it perfectly.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I'm still having a lot of fun with the game, though, Marcus. It's an amazing game.

Speaker 1:

Well, I know you are. I actually know you are because your stream content of playing that game is the best out of any stream content I've ever watched of you. Oh, really, yeah, when you're playing Final Fantasy VII Rebirth for the 9,000th time on the hardest difficulty, you don't have the same passion playing that as you do this game. I don't know if it's because it's your first playthrough and everything is new, or the game is, so I'm gonna say the word invigorating or exciting for you that, like it comes out, and I think a turn-based game is a great stream game for you because you can be comical and methodical at the same time I had a moment today I'm glad you said that I had a moment today on stream where every turn-based fight is essentially a puzzle.

Speaker 2:

I choose my moves and then I hope to execute my dodges and parries so that I can avoid damage. And then I choose my moves. I'm trying to strategically move the enemy's health bars down to zero. Before mine hit zero and there was this one fight that kept wiping me out the enemies were doing this move where they self stab and that would give them shields on their health bar that make them so. I can't hurt them, but I can try to wear their shields down. And when they self-stab to power their next attack up, they're doing their own damage to themselves. Right, because they're stabbing themselves in the torso to power themselves up, right.

Speaker 1:

And.

Speaker 2:

I had to do this fight about three times before I broke through and because it's turn-based, and I realized, oh my gosh, I have the next two moves and I'm down to one enemy in this mob out of three and they have 20% and no shield and I have my biggest hit, Like. So I just was able. Cause it's turn-based, I don't have to worry about anything. I can just enjoy the moment and say my audience like it's over, we got it this time. And then I press the button and then we just see it happen. There's no stress, it's just a celebration. And it's a different kind of feeling than if you're in the action based fight, because you know that moments in front of you but there's still the stress of I have to execute. But in this it's like solving a Rubik's Cube, Like you know. Oh, I rotate this row two times and it's over, right, and you can just look at it and be like you're mine. Yeah, it's a different feeling completely.

Speaker 1:

I'll be excited once you beat expedition 33 or whatever and you play your next turn-based game on stream, because I think, like man, your content is so good playing a turn-based game well, we'll see.

Speaker 2:

I've never played the the most recent pokemon, if you can believe that no, you got to do like octopath traveler or something okay, okay, you got to play a game that you like are blind one of the things, since we already have mentioned final fantasy 7 in the last five minutes, marcus, a lot of people talking about Expedition 33 on podcasts and online in the circles that I listen to and get information from, they're talking about something that's very important to me as the author of the Gamer's Journey, and that is this there are a generation of gamers that have not played Final Fantasy VII, and Final Fantasy VII doesn't matter to them, but they will play Expedition 33 because it's so hot right now, in 2025. Because of the story of how it was made by ex-Ubisofters, 33 of them decided to make this game together. Right, like. That's a powerful story about taking back your power and doing something with it and changing the industry. It's doing turn-based in a way that is not like other turn-based games.

Speaker 1:

Marcus they revolute this game, so there's moments in time, right, yeah, right, and I'm gonna use the iphone. When the iPhone came out, it was all there was was an Android and it was clunky, and Apple made this thing that revolutionized the world. Same thing with an iPad, or an iPad. What was the music?

Speaker 2:

one called Like an iPod, ipod, ipod shuffle, yeah, ipod. What was the music one called Like an iPod? Ipod, ipod shuffle, yeah iPod.

Speaker 1:

But these are moments. Turn-based games moving forward will always come back to now. Oh shit, if you're making a turn-based game right now, you're going fuck. We're going to have to go back to the drawing board right now. This game is incredible. Look what it's done.

Speaker 2:

You know, like Pokemon on the Switch 2, right. Eventually it's going to happen and they're playing to a younger audience. They don't need something that's as complex as Expedition 33, but they need to look at it and figure out what's the Pokemon version of what Expedition 33 is doing, and that's what we're talking about. It's an innovation to one of the oldest styles of gameplay. It's Final Fantasy 1, right, turn-based role-playing game, but it's got such good style and culture. It's a window into French culture.

Speaker 2:

One of my constant supporters since I started streaming on Twitch actually is in France and I was talking to him on stream this week. It goes by the handle T-Lop as I pronounce it I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right because you're just reading it in the chat, but talking with him, and he was around when I was playing persona 5 royal. But now we have the cultural connection of exposition 33 being a french rpg that's doing like a jrpg, like japan, but like what's, what's the French culture inspired RPG, and this is it, so it's unique in that way, too. It's. This is, potentially, if this game holds and has a story that resonates and characters that resonate, and you have moments in the game that can become memes and can become those mythological moments like Aerith getting killed by Sephiroth and I'm sure it will have moments like that because it's so tragic and beautiful already, like this could be people's Final Fantasy VII yes.

Speaker 1:

But it changed the way games are played. Yeah, turn-based games Turn-based. You know what I mean. Right, and this, we're gonna look back when we're 60 and people are still going to be or 50 or 60. And we're kids now that are playing this game, are going to talk about this game back in the day and somebody is going to remake this game because it was so influential now.

Speaker 2:

That's very true. I'm just I'm so excited because when games are brand new, historically I'm not on the bandwagon. I show up for games way after usually, but because I'm trying to grow in bigger ways on Twitch, I've been bouncing around the new games and the trending hotness. And Assassin's Creed Shadows did not work for me, monster Hunter did not work for me. I tried, but as soon as I turned on Expedition 33, it just grabbed me and I loved what was happening in my mind and I don't always find that. But since I did, it's like I've been adding extra days to my stream schedule. I've been trying to figure out how can I play this with my community, cause I'm not playing it without my community either, like that would ruin it because then I would know what's coming, either like that would ruin it because then I would know what's coming. So it's just been really exciting to hang out with my friends on twitch and talk about the mental health topics.

Speaker 2:

And, oh my gosh, marcus, we added a new feature to my channel. I want to talk to you about it. Okay, it came from this, my d20 stress ball. I love that.

Speaker 2:

I created a new channel, point redeem, where you can pay, and I will roll this dice and I have a spreadsheet with over 50 mental health for gamers topics and it's not prepared. I don't know what I'm going to talk about, but but I roll it, I show the number to the screen. So we rolled a four. So then I go to the spreadsheet, I put the thing above my head and we've done it two times Now I put the title above my head and then I just talk about it like the old school mental health moments I used to do, but with a little bit more extra gaming flair to it with the D 20. And it's been so fun, like I have taken the highlights out on Twitch but I haven't done anything with them yet. But I really need to because they're really fun content and it's something that can just send me into just chatting mode for five to seven minutes and then pop back into the game. And it's so in line with the mission of the channel.

Speaker 1:

That's amazing. And you make it, and you make the channel point redemption expensive enough to where not every single person can redeem it. It's somebody that has to come back a couple times in order to earn it. You know what I'm saying. You don't want that to be a hundred point return, and then you're doing it all the time. You want it to be a hundred point return, and then you're doing it all the time you want it to be like oh snap, t-lop just redeemed this. We haven't done this in three days, let's go, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2:

I gotta look at that because I wasn't thinking about that, but that's a really good point. But so far we've only done one per stream. It's not every single stream.

Speaker 1:

It's still special but now it's right. No, no, I understand that. And even if it's one every single stream, it's still special. But now it's right. No, no, no, I understand that. And even if it's one every stream, that's good. But you want the, you want it to cost enough to where, if you stream for two hours, you don't want somebody to earn that.

Speaker 2:

You want them to have to come back and earn it with more points, yeah, and so the two topics I've done so far are the psychology of vr gaming, which you know. You know I love vr gaming for my exercise, it's just like the coolest. But I talked about vader immortal and I talked about the batman simulator game and I, you know I talked about other games too, but just yeah, I love vr gaming, not not as a game, I love it as an excuse to exercise while you're gaming, sure, and then we also talked about escape and coping as a gamer, because you know, escape is one of those words that psychology professionals use in a pretty demeaning way towards gamers. And I'm not about that. I don't, I don't take that lightly. I stand up for us and talk about what escape actually is there is no escape marcus don't make

Speaker 1:

me destroy you but you don't have to destroy me. I'm right here, you know, but I do enjoy that you're growing in your content creation and you're finding your path right, because content creation is not a sprint, it's a marathon. Oh yeah, you know what I mean and you have to find your and you're going to realize like some things work, some things don't. And that I love that stress ball channel redemption, because you it forces you to have a mental health moment when you're least expecting it.

Speaker 2:

Right yeah, it's really cool too, cause the audience gets to control that. Right, yeah, we also have the. We also have the conversation cards from geek therapeutics that I can use. We also could do the old school mental health moment kind of format I.

Speaker 1:

I like this because it it's forcing you to do something that you don't. You don't know what's coming and it's forcing you to do something that you don't. You don't know what's coming and it's giving somebody and you don't know, and they don't know. And it's pretty rad when you get to talk about something you're not expecting, cause if you're thinking about a mental health moment, you're going to be like, oh, I'm going to be, I'm going to talk about X. And you're going to think about that for days where, if you're just pulling up a random cement sheet, you're like, oh snap, I wasn't expecting this, let's go. And it puts you in it and it proves to your community that you're really good at what you do. Because random topic comes up and you're like, oh snap, I got this, no problem, let's go.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I don't think about my topics for days at all, ever anymore.

Speaker 1:

it's all improv well, so those are the things that you keep to yourself, so your community doesn't know that. But hey, whatever, you know what I mean. Nobody's, just us yeah, that's true.

Speaker 2:

No, everybody I. I really do think that the reason I talk about things the way I do is because I wish sometimes I was a comedian. But it works.

Speaker 1:

Well, wait wait 2025 doc is way more of a comedian than 2019 doc. Okay.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, that's true. Okay, what were you going to say? I was just going to ask you what's something you wish you had become, but you never did.

Speaker 1:

Like me and comedy. What is something that I wish I became that I never did A professional paintball player player that's interesting because I know, before I figured out, what psychology was.

Speaker 2:

I wanted to be either an nba player or an astronaut, and I was age 10, so let's see how we all see how that worked out. But you know what, if you have a, a call to adventure and you need to be the hero of your story, go after it, because sometimes there are going to be things inside you that stay alive, no matter how old you get, and you can always find ways to use them and then, as always, continue the journey. Thank you.

People on this episode

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Daniel Kaufmann

Host
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MarcusB814

Co-host