What If Games Train Real Problem Solvers

Your console is on, your hands are ready, and you still hesitate to hit Start because you know what’s waiting: the boss that’s been living in your head all week. We talk honestly about that moment, why it happens, and how to push through it without turning your favorite game into a stress factory. 

We jump from a real-life win (a book selling out at PAX East) into the games taking over our brains right now: Baldur’s Gate 3 build learning, why rushing the main quest can punish you later, and how the story’s early grove conflict brings racism and fear to the surface in a way that forces choices. From there we get into WWE 2K26, the season pass backlash, and what it looks like when a studio actually patches progression to be more reasonable. Great gameplay matters, but respecting player time matters too. 

Then we settle into the big theme: mindset. Elden Ring becomes the perfect example of progress anxiety, panic rolling, and the dread of “I’m about to grind for hours.” We share practical mental skills like breaking fights into small sections, training pattern recognition, using mindfulness to slow your reactions, and knowing when stepping away is the smartest move. We also talk about streaming, split focus, self-critique, and why video games build transferable skills like problem solving, muscle memory, and even spreadsheet-level systems thinking in real jobs. 

If you’ve ever wondered whether games are “just entertainment” or a legitimate mental workout, this one’s for you. Subscribe, share it with a friend who doesn’t get gaming, and leave a rating and review so more people can find the show.

Transcript

Book News And Listener Feedback

SPEAKER_03 0:00

So Marcus, you sit at your computer, the screens are lit, you look around your room, your favorite art surrounds you, you're with your friends. What do you want to do next?

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Well, my my go-to answer would be definitely podcast. For initiative. Right.

SPEAKER_03 0:24

But my come on, that was epic. You gotta give me props for that. I've never even DM'd. I really felt the spirit of that energy inside of me.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

I mean, you don't probably just say read a book.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

I was gonna say, no, no, no. I was gonna say write a book. Write a book that works too. When an award delayed so hard. I did that once, and this is a perfect moment to go into my ordinary world. Would you like to know what happened since last podcast episode with that book I wrote? It sold out at PAX East. It sold out at PAX East. Thank you, people in Boston, for remembering how to read books, unlike so many parts of the country. I love all of you. I hope you enjoy the book. If you are listening to the show and you have a copy and you're enjoying it or you're hating it, DM me on social media. Let me know what you think. I want to connect with you. That's why I wrote it. It's such a cool time when you get that text message from your publisher that updates you on that. But actually, my publisher didn't tell me. One of our community members in Discord told me at 1 a.m. And I actually didn't know, but they had friends that wanted to buy some copies and they couldn't. So that's a crazy problem to have. Awful problem to have.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

You know, instead of leaving uh D DMing you with a comment and stuff like that, can't they leave like a comment in our on the on whatever listening app they're using too? That would work.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

I was trying to see if anybody has left a rating for us and a review on Apple, and they did not because I'm getting whoever does it is getting a free book.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

Yep, that's true. And we have to extend the dead one because it's April.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Well, it could be on Spotify. We got to look at all the podcasts.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

I'm checking, I'm checking Spotify right now. Spotify.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

Anyway, so we didn't record last week because well, there was there were a few technical difficulties. So Doc had some technical difficulties with life. I had some technical difficulties with Baldur's Gate. It was a 63.85 megabyte patch, and it took 45 minutes to update on my computer, and I basically lost my mind. So we ended up just chatting for half an hour, and the cancellation of the podcast happened.

Learning Baldur’s Gate 3 Combat

SPEAKER_03 3:04

But yes, I guess I guess we did for one week cancel the podcast. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

So Baldur's Gate. I didn't get to play it a lot. I'm just playing the campaign with you guys. It's really interesting to me to hear like to play the game and how much dialogue is in the game. It's actually astonishing how much dialogue is in the game.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

It is.

SPEAKER_03 4:10

And if you don't have the ability to do that, you still can interact with them and get their animal noises. So like it's just such an interactable world.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

That's what I'm saying. The magic of it. And then I I would say today uh was the first time like I actually felt a little confident in my combat abilities. You know, I uh as a barbarian, I can like I have I don't know, it's almost like a pre-strike. Like I have you can I can do my enrage or I can do my frenzy where my hits hit harder. And if I do frenzy, which I learned today, like when I do rage, I can't hit them after I hit my rage, but if I do frenzy, I can get crazy and and I can still hit. So it's almost like a double action. Which again, learning the game, that is helping me understand it. Like the first time we played, or the second time, I learned how you can dash, and I instead of 30 meters, I can do I think it's like 42 meters, I can go. Double. Huh? It's supposed to be double. Oh, okay, maybe 60, but maybe I've only done 40, so but it uses your full action, so you can get there, but you can't also do an attack.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

In the future, though, I'm just thinking out loud. Once you get more abilities and level up a bit, couldn't you dash and then use a bonus action to at least get one hit? Depending on how you build your character. I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Probably I'm not sure how the barbarians get to build out.

SPEAKER_03 6:02

Yes, everyone, you're listening to a sorcerer slash wizard try to explain to the world how to play barbarians. So this is a wonderful conversation. But we've done three play sessions with our three-person group. We have done two sessions with me and Doritos doing our two-person group, and I currently have no solo endeavor in this at all. Because I actually have earned two platinum trophies in the last ten days. I finished what was the second one. I finished Resident Evil Requiem on a Sunday, and then the Tuesday of the following week, so nine days later, I got Final Fantasy VII remake. Finally done after my glitch save file and beating the game on two different difficulties again. Got a comment from a a person that I don't know, we just met because of this post. The algorithm connected us. He told me this devastating story about how he was really looking forward to getting 100% on the first Red Dead Redemption, but something happened where it glitched and the max he could earn was 99.9%. And so from that from that point forward, he doesn't play games for achievements anymore, he just plays them for the fun he wants to have. So then, of course, I got to comment and say, sorry that happened to you. I have my own stories, they're very similar, and intrinsic motivation actually can make you feel more fulfilled in video games than extrinsic for most people. Anyway, so I'm glad you found that for yourself.

unknown 8:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Yeah, I play games just to play games. Some of the comments that come have come out of Doritos and Doc when we're playing Baldur's Gate, just as an example of how I play versus them. Like, I don't even search the whole area that we're in, and I'm already into the next area, and they're like, hey, I'm still in the back area searching boxes. I'm like, oh, and they're like, Oh, you're in a pretty serious conversation already.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

Yeah, and it's just because you don't explore. You are give me the main quest and let me go. And I don't care if I'm underleveled at the end and not complain when it's hard and not try to fully level up. And I just want to get through the story and move on and get this game. Check, I've played the game, I've finished it, and move on. What's next?

SPEAKER_02 8:54

I will I'm gonna give you 60% yes of all of that you said.

SPEAKER_03 8:58

That was mostly me, Doritos.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

Yeah, but I will say 60-40 on that. I definitely like the main quest. I'm not a big side quest person, fine. But I do like to grind, I will sacrifice that's the MMO player in me. Like I the last game, what did I grind? Claire. In Claire, I found these enemies and I just grinded and grinded and grinded and grinded over and over just to get some levels and some lumina. Elden Ring, as soon as I got to that spot, and what's where's the Lord of Blood? What's that area called? No, no, Moggs Palace. Mogs Palace, yeah. There's those there's a spot there where you can shoot a bow and arrow at a bird and yeah, the stupid bird. And believe it or not, I think that at that point, I gotta give credit credit to the guy. Fatal blood. He was always hanging around in my stream during my prison sentence, and he took me and got me to Mowin's Palace. He like literally logged into my oh no, he couldn't log into my game, so he walked me through it via Discord by watching me play it on Twitch. It was so cool. But once I got to that bird and I did some like rune farming, the game got a lot better for me.

SPEAKER_03 10:29

Because you started to do the challenge at appropriate levels for your character. Correct.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

That's where I said Toritos got it 60% right. Because he is right that everybody listening, he is a hundred percent right that I fucking hate having to grind to do something. Right? That's why I love destiny. You get the gun that has the perks, you're all set. There's no grinding that gun out. You just get the gun, get the perk, and go.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Unless you craft. The thing is, if you don't if you don't get what is what it is you want, then you gotta keep replaying the instance till you get the role with all the perks you want, like I said, unless you choose to craft the weapon.

SPEAKER_03 11:20

In Baldur's Gate, though, it is incredibly possible to finish Act 1 or Act Two so fast with so little experience on your characters that you are at a huge disadvantage for the next act. It's a three-act game. And the maximum level is 12. So for context, our party, we are all level three characters right now. And in D, the the biggest jump in ability from why I remember playing the game Baldur's Gate and also an actual DD campaign, level five is a huge deal. I don't remember if there's any level after level five that is as big a deal.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

It's in the 10 to 12 range, depending on what subclass you are.

SPEAKER_03 12:13

Yeah. So if you are not level five when you go into act two, the challenge spikes in a noticeable way.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Oh, it does? Definitely, yes. Interesting.

Story Choices And Moral Dilemmas

SPEAKER_03 12:34

So we gotta keep opening things and finding things and getting inspired so that way we get little 20 XP here, 20 XP there, and we'll be level four next time we play. We're showing spikes.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

We're good. I think it's I think that's I think that's a good goal. I like that you guys are patient with me. I think we're doing it. I'm still lost on what the story is of the game. I feel like I just have a bug in my head, and right now it's like everything is focused on that, but I feel like the story's gonna open up soon.

SPEAKER_03 13:11

It's more like a worm. Yeah. Wouldn't say it's a bug. Kind of. And we're in a grove with the tree-worshipping people, but they have lots of not tree-worshipping people that are trying to be there for safety, but they really don't like them. So they're gonna toss them out and cast a spell to make this grove covered by trees and no one will ever find them again, which makes them safe forever. But the moral dilemma is they're casting all of these foreigners out, the the red-skinned demon-looking people. And I don't know the official names of species and and things. The tieflings, yes. They're gonna they're gonna cast out the tieflings, Marcus. So we're dealing with racism and xenophobia. And you know, if you are a I want to save everyone kind of person, you're like, we're all living and we're not goblins, so let's all be safe together. But the tree people are like, no, these are our trees, get out, and then they're like, Well, go find Halsen, and if you don't find him by this time, we're gonna shield the grove, and you'll never find us. So we're we're learning little bits about what they what they need us to do, but that's the thing about DD is our characters don't know what we're supposed to do, and the only way to advance the story is by talking to people, and there will come a time in all the quests where one person says, Go over here and destroy this thing, and I'll help you advance your story. But then someone else you're talking to will say, Go over here and save this thing, and I'll help you advance the story. This person over here will say, just go over there and like take a nap, and that will advance the story. And so then it's like, well, what did we choose to do?

SPEAKER_01 15:18

For it.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

What other games have you guys been playing?

SPEAKER_03 15:25

I have been playing WWE 2K26, and I would just like to say the power of the people, we won a big victory over 2K games this week. What do you mean? I didn't hear anything. They patched, they patched the game and gave everyone an instant 20 levels on the season pass. And if you have purchased the deluxe edition, you will instantly level up to 20 on season two of the pass. They have changed it so all paid DLC wrestlers, not unlockable wrestlers that are in-game, but the paid DLC wrestlers are all going to be in tier one of their season. So you get them just by clicking season pass and unlocking tier one if they are paid wrestlers, and they have changed the exhaustion system, the purple circle that makes it so you trip on yourself five seconds into the match. So it is still there, but they say it's less aggressive, and I guess it is. I was able to beat some challenges in my faction that were blocking me a week ago, and I cleared them now. So they've just made it so advancement in the game is a little bit more reasonable for people who are playing modes in a free-to-play way. And they made the season pass more fair, and they reduced the number of points for every level of the season pass from 800 down to 650 or 625. So that's also more than a more than 15% reduction.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

That's interesting. Go ahead. Go ahead, Marcus. No, no, no, you go. Oh, so that sounds like they were able to take some some of the feedback and maybe not maybe not make everybody happy, because you're never going to make everybody happy, but make a majority of players more content with the product that they have purchased.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

I agree. The the big one for me, I I I talked about it on the show. I feel like I was ripped off. It wasn't fun. The game itself, forget about the season past, forget about the ringside past, forget about everything else. The actual gameplay of the game, this could be the best WWE wrestling game that's ever come out, or maybe since 2000 20 2K15 or 2K18, or or back in the day of Nintendo 64. This game, the gameplay itself in this game is incredible, but they completely deflated that by their greed. The question I'm gonna have is is so season three, four, five, and six, they're not unlocking the first 20 levels, or are they?

SPEAKER_03 18:36

Oh, I I don't know. I didn't memorize the show notes, that's just what I remember reading. Oh show notes, the patch notes. I didn't yeah, I didn't memorize the patch notes, that's just what I remember off the top of my head.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

Now, if they if you paid for it and you get the jump start at 20 levels and you instantly get it and they up the XP and it's not as much of a grind, okay, I can see it. But I also feel like the season pass shouldn't be tied to a deluxe edition. All of your deluxe when you buy the deluxe edition, you should get all the wrestlers. I believe the season pass should be a set of wrestlers that aren't in the base game, are in the game and part of the deluxe edition, or like the the basic 200 wrestlers that you get, all the extra skinned wrestlers and all the extras that they decide, like Matt Cardona is coming, I think, in season three. That's a season pass character, just like in Fortnite.

SPEAKER_03 19:43

Yeah, so you'll get here him at tier one. So just start the game when that season starts and you get him.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

Right. But it's uh it's good though. That I I mean, clearly they listened, and clearly people are revolting. You know, I know people that usually buy the top edition and they bought the base edition, and they're like, we're not buying a season pass, we're not doing anything, we're gonna play with the characters that they gave us, and that's okay. But really, truly, if you look at the list of characters, more than half or three-quarters of the characters are blacked out, locked behind the paywall. And that's what sucks about the game. But you know who's getting really good at that game? Like, in like I cannot, I almost can't win. Your son. Yes. Like, he's incredible.

SPEAKER_03 20:42

Have you tried hitting triangle to reverse a move, Marcus? All the time.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

But he as soon as I hit the triangle, he's learned a different move that like stops the triangle reversal, and then he grabs me again. It's insanity what he can do. But he's clear, but he's literally playing, I would say at least a minimum of 10 to 12 matches a day.

SPEAKER_03 21:11

It was a really important thing for me growing up that I could defeat my dad easily in video games. So I'm glad you gave that to your son and that he can take advantage of your panic rolls.

Hitting A Wall In Elden Ring

SPEAKER_02 21:22

And I panic roll. But you know what he gets really mad at? Is whenever I throw him over the rope, I instantly grind climb the top rope and jump on top of him. It's the best. Yeah. Heck yeah. You know, but I did have this brings up a a good question. I find myself stuck again in a video game. And I think I need a game to like break the monotony. So Elden Ring, I'm back to the roadblock. So I got to a k a a boss. I've died a bunch, and I'm stopping myself from logging in because as soon as I log in, it's grind mode. And I haven't logged in in two weeks because I'm just like I don't want to like I like the exploration, even though I don't explore everywhere like Doritos does. I still like to explore, and then you stumble across a boss, but like signing in knowing like it's panic roll time, it's it's tough for me to like you're not supposed to panic roll, Marcus.

SPEAKER_03 22:31

You're supposed to get better at rolling.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Yeah, and I also have to try to get good, and I also have to try to not die, right? Are you doing the shadow of the urge tree section though?

SPEAKER_03 22:43

Yeah, you don't have to grind your levels there, you have to go find your your lights and scatter tree fragments, yeah. Scatter tree fragments, exactly. The gobble what's it? Yeah, the gobble what's it?

SPEAKER_02 22:59

But what I'm saying is, is what do you guys do when you love a game, but you like you know that as soon as you get into the game, it's gonna be hard. How do you get pull yourself to get over that mental block of like, okay, it's just a game, it's gonna be hard, but like I'll get through it.

Mindfulness And Flow Under Pressure

SPEAKER_03 23:23

Well, I'm an 80s kid, so the correct answer is I eat my vitamins and I say my prayers. I broke them, everybody. Oh, this is one of the best moments in show history because they did not see that coming.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

That that one was not on the bingo card tonight.

SPEAKER_03 23:48

No, well, rest in peace, Paul Hogan. No, I I think mindfulness is a really important thing to talk about, which is the ability to let go of this intense need to react and just let things come to you and let it slow down, you know. So I've given you some grief in this episode about panic rolls, and that's just what we do. You know, we've been doing this for a long time, the three of us. Yeah, when when I see an opponent in a in that wrestling match getting on the top rope, I know they're gonna try to do an elbow or leg or a or a flippy spinny, you know, 450 splash. So, but I also know where the triangle icon is gonna pop up, right above my head, laying there on the mat. So I sit up straight, my back's not on the couch anymore. I make sure I will not have to blink for the next three to seven seconds, and I just have my thumb on that button, and I'm just letting everything feel as slow as possible. And as soon as those pixels turn into something that is a triangle inside a circle, most of the time those are my best reversals, is the the flying moves. But it's a reaction time challenge that you can tell when it's gonna happen. And if you let yourself be for me, if I let myself be relaxed in those moments instead of tense, I'm more accurate about when I needed to press. It's like the blast shield being down on Luke and a new hope on the Millennium Falcon. And at first he protests, how am I supposed to deflect it with the blast shield down? And Obi-Wan says, you know, you'll know, you'll feel it through the force. You know, for me, I've made this parallel before this psychological flow and and that mindful state and letting go of the need to fix it and just being with it is a big a big ability. It's it's it's an important state of mind. What other things in life do we even do where you get a chance to just slow down like that and let your brain on purpose slide into that feeling?

SPEAKER_01 26:15

Maybe yoga, maybe yard work yard work. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

But I but I I don't wanna I don't wanna call you out and say you didn't answer the question. That let me re-ass the question. But when you know you're signing into a game to grind, do you ever like go, oh I don't I just don't want to play that game right now because you're not in that mode, but then you get in that uh get the track record of not signing back in because you're not in that mode.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

It becomes like like you know, a progression prog almost progression rating, where you know you can bang your head for weeks at a time, months at a time, and not progress. And then what you're doing is you're training, you're you're getting used to the movesets, the sequence of events, the how the the program is reacting to what you're doing. And I mean, this is what I did with Melania. I went in and like I'm gonna try to do two or three things, and that's it. I'm gonna probably end up dying a million times. But I went in with the express with the with the intent of I'm gonna take the fight and break it up into you know two or three minute sections. Get that two or three minutes down right. He does this opener followed by moves one, two, and three every time. It's one, two, and three. Okay, I I now know I can I can get my reaction time where, like Doc was saying, I'm now calm and relaxed when when he does this, I can now move appropriately. And then once I get that first three moves down, okay. Now what are the next three? What are the next three? And after a while, you get where you you know the dance, and you're able to say, Okay, I don't have to panic roll, I know what's coming, and be able to to to move with the dance. Yeah, sometimes it's like, okay, I need to set it down for a hot minute and step away and then come back and pick it up, going, where did I leave off? Go, oh, yeah, I don't remember any of this, or I remember him doing this later or earlier, or whatever the ability is, and rebuild that knowledge, rebuild that reaction time because that's what it amounts to. Because from my take from watching the VODs and people play it online, and even you play it before I did, Elden Ring and Shadow of the Erd Tree are it's all in my opinion, it's all based on counterattacks. Boss does thing, you step aside, get a hit or two in. Boss does thing, you step, roll, dodge, whatever it is, and you counterattack. You get one or two hits, and that's all you get. Right. Unless you unless you go with the uh a build where okay, I've I'm just gonna just juggernaut this thing and go in and hulk smash, or whatever your build happens to be, because you've done it enough times you're at new game plus ten and you've got enough abilities where you can go in and just steamroll things. Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

Yeah, my character that is go ahead. No, I was just gonna say, you're right, I just don't.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

I guess for me, I just don't have that in you don't no, you don't like to do it because it's frustrating. You you like to go in, be able to kick something's ass and move along. And and and progginess is you you are willing to do progression, but you don't like it. No, you're doing it solo, it's a different story. You're the one holding yourself accountable now to doing it.

Streaming Versus Deep Focus

SPEAKER_02 30:43

I I guess it so partly yes, but when I say what I'm saying is like once I'm in it, I don't mind doing it and I have fun doing it. But what I'm saying is right now, I'm at a boss in Elden Ring. I have not found myself clicking the start Elden Ring button because I know I'm walking right into a boss fight.

SPEAKER_03 31:07

Go ahead. I do experience that, and now I can answer the question. You just had to say it that way. I do not like doing what you're talking about when I'm streaming. I have had a really hard time going live, and part of that is because I got to the point in Resident Evil Requiem where I was taking on insanity difficulty. I did do a stream on insanity difficulty, it was just very hard because my number one priority when I'm streaming are the people watching me and what's happening in the chat. And I don't like ignoring that enough to pay the deep attention to the game, and this might be why my interest in Savage Raiding and Final Fantasy XIV fell apart, nightmare raiding and Sotor fell apart. I want to do those things, but I also want to stream in a successful way. But when that's the challenge I'm stuck on, I know that I want to accomplish it, and so I've chosen to just play on my couch and have a real shot at succeeding at those things instead of certain days where I could stream, choosing to stream because splitting my focus is a handicap on challenges like that. There are people who are amazing at playing highest difficulty on new games with their streams, and they do it six hours a day, five days a week, and their instincts do not take a dip just because there's people watching, and they're talking to chat and actually being hilarious too. And maybe sometimes I pull off a nice hilarious moment, but I critique myself so hard that I come out of it feeling like I played the game terrible and did not make the progress I wanted, and I was so focused I was not the most entertaining or engaging content creator that I could have been. So I end the afternoon feeling like nothing was victorious for me, which is me being super hypercritical to myself. I don't need to think that way, but naturally that's what my brain does, and I don't like that.

unknown 33:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

What do you think? I try not to, it hurts my head.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

So you never struggle with logging into a game.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

I won't say that. I mean, I do struggle logging into a game, a lot, but a lot of it is it's kind of the same sort of thing. Oh, I mean, I'll pick Sotor first. Of oh, look, I'm I'm logging in. Why am I logging in? I'm I I want to get this character to its weekly conquest cap. Okay. Do I do I do I really want to do it? But I'm you know, it gets to where is it a game or is it a chore? Is it an obligation? An obligation to whom? Myself, the guild I'm with, the friends. You know, what what's my level of enjoyment I'm getting out of this? So I I you know I try to maintain my my login streak so I get the the daily rewards and all that good stuff. But some days, yeah, it's I I log in, I do a quick little inventory check on something. I don't even play, you know, that that that's all I log into SOTOR. I go play another game. I'll play Ballersgate. I'll play I've started playing Horizon Zero Dawn again just for just for a ha because I haven't played it in forever. It's a comfort game for you. It is a comfort game for me. Well, I'm actually playing it on a controller, not mouse and keyboard, so I'm I'm having to relearn what I learned.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

Dexterity improvement. That's interesting because that is not let's let's just say like going from a keyboard and mouse with anything that's shooting to a controller is not easy.

SPEAKER_03 35:26

Also, Final Fantasy 14. I played that with mouse and keyboard for years, and now I've been playing on controller for years, and I can do both. I don't remember where my buttons are on black mage if I switch to keyboard and mouse, but I'm sure if I tried it for one dungeon, it would all come back. You know, the ability to switch makes the game feel like a new game in a lot of ways, even though everything your eyes are looking at is the same. So the brain can make is is very flexible in that way. Called neuroplasticity.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

Yeah, but there's also muscle memory too, and that's where you know because I play Sword pretty much mouse and keyboard, it's muscle memory on keybinds and not having to think and you know be able to have conversations and watch a watch a ball game or something on the other on the other screen, and just know instinctively, okay, I'm just doing my stuff and having a comment. I mean, I'll have my kids will come in, my wife will come in, I'll just turn and look at them and keep doing the raid. It's like, aren't you paying attention? I'm like, it's it's muscle memory. My my mind doesn't have to, I don't have to consciously think about where I am in my rotation. Unless there's something I actually have to move out of. Bless your heart.

Why Gaming Builds Real Skills

SPEAKER_03 36:50

No, they call it psychological flow. You know, this whole thing about the fear of not making progress, the fear of getting stuck, the fear of getting frustrated. What are other hobbies people have where you could progress, or you could be at the same level of performance for a long time, or the level that you're trying to get to is a struggle, but you have to keep showing up if you're ever gonna get there.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

You could pick any sport. I mean, if you don't train, if you don't, if you don't practice, you're not gonna progress, you're gonna be kind of stalemated. I know that uh what all three of us are working on improving our health. So, you know, if you if we stagnate and don't get our what we feel are required workouts in every week, we've I mean I know I'll feel like I stagnate and don't progress. You know, you can pick any number of hobbies. I mean, I got a whole I got a whole table of hobbies behind me that are just sitting there waiting for me to pick them back up and and progress them.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:06

There are entire groups and you know, stereotypical groups of people that are not gamers, that judge gamers in a way that's very dismissive, and if they are in a situation where they have to talk about people who play video games, they talk about them as a group of people that are wasting their time sitting down doing an activity that amounts to nothing. Like, my entire lens of talking about video games is about how they can help improve mental health, create strategies for problem solving that translates as a metaphor or as actual practice into all our different life areas. We just compared the struggle of getting through a boss fight in Elden Ring or a Pink Diamond John Cena match in WWE 2K to the struggle of getting better at your sport or lifting weights or doing things on your hobby table. And a lot of people, as soon as you say video games and you attempt to engage in a metaphor, their basic tendencies of how they look at the world with no flexibility and no imagination kick in, and they stop listening and they just think, Oh, you're doing that childish thing that isn't for me because I have a serious life that should be taken seriously. And but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

Well, yeah, okay, so you're sitting there letting something entertain you, where I am in interacting, I am in front of a screen, same amount of time, but I'm interacting with, I'm problem solving, I am doing something that's causing me to problem solve, think through, strategize on how do I want to progress my activity versus having something else fed to me, and I just sit there and let it tell me what to do.

SPEAKER_03 40:22

I wanna I want to build off of that. I had my monthly faculty meeting because it's a new month, and we do this every month, first week. And there is an issue where a series of courses that all link together need to have a new assignment inserted, which means the total point value of the assignments needs to be adjusted for the existing assignments to make room for a new assignment. And I explained exactly which assignments need to be reduced by how many points to create a 50-point gap. Insert the new assignment in the final week of this series of courses, and then you're able to evaluate at the end of the program for the extra skill that we're teaching our students over their two and a half years in the program. And in the chat for the Zoom meeting, somebody said, You need to work for the curriculum department, Dr. Kaufman. That was amazing. I'm just looking at it like, well, that's like literally the easiest problem I've solved the entire day. I think though, you know, in that whole Zoom meeting room of a hundred people with counseling education doctorates, the person who ended up providing the most mathematically efficient solution was the person who plays MMO games and creates spreadsheets to calculate stats for the best Sith Sorcerer rotation or black mage rotation, and who is like actively organizing their achievement list so that they can platinum trophy a game in the smallest number of playthroughs possible. I I don't know that all the activities I do in video games are important for being able to solve that particular feature problem, but I think the way I see the world is systematic because of the way I've connected with game achievements and you know cheat codes and Easter eggs and secrets in video games, and you know, looking at these things as potential shortcuts to become more efficient and assemble the best strategy like speed running, but for my job it it allows me to do things in a way where I do get credit, but some people as soon as they realize oh he's he's gaming his job so that they don't get a feeling in them, I think that they just badmouth video games, and that is something I've been thinking about for about 48 hours now. Because you know why it's 2026, and video games are such a big financial industry for the world. I don't I don't get why so many people are that ignorant still.

SPEAKER_02 43:16

I get I get this all the time. Did you watch this show? No, did you watch this show? No. What do you do? I said the only TV shows I watch are Friday Night SmackDown and Monday Night Raw. That's the only to actual TV I sit down and watch, and once in a while AEW wrestling. But if not, I'm playing video games.

SPEAKER_03 43:39

WWE is greedy for our time.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

Well, yeah. But then, Marcus, to your thing, is usually does the follow-up usually oh, how can you waste your time? Right?

Relationships And Trying New Games

SPEAKER_02 43:51

No. I don't I've never I don't usually get that. It's more of like, do you know how good this TV show is? How are you not watching? Watching that well, because I'm trying to beat Elden Ring, or I'm I'm playing Baldur's Gate with my friends, or you know, something. I don't usually get it's a waste of time. When I first met my wife, she thought video games were a waste, and I'm like, look at it, I love doing it. But then she realized I'm just sitting in a room.

SPEAKER_03 44:19

Not like she she is so lucky you married her. Okay. That's really hard to be in a relationship.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

And she doesn't play any games at all, right? Oh, candy. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 44:32

I'm just saying it's really hard to be in a relationship with a spouse that has disdain for your primary entertainment, relaxation, personal interests, hobbies, you know, like that's usually something that contributes to the thing that becomes the deal breaker. So you must really care about her market.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

Oh no, now it's fine. It's like even tonight, my kids are gone, they're in Rhode Island already. We're going tomorrow because I still have to I gotta do some work tomorrow for a half a day. And we went out to dinner tonight. She was like, Hey, do you mind if we stop at Marshall's? And I'm like, No, I don't care. But and I texted you guys, hey, I'm running late, and I came home and I was like, Hey, do you want to hang out? She's like, No, you got a podcast to do. I'm gonna go watch my TV show.

SPEAKER_03 45:19

Go away. I got my shows. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

But that's man, yeah, but that's but that's like there was no anger. Like we got had a nice dinner together, we had a great night, and like it it it's it works.

SPEAKER_01 45:34

But do you think I'll like oh, let me rephrase my question.

SPEAKER_02 45:43

Okay, I want to try a game, it's called Metaphor Phantasmio or something like that. I really want to play this game, okay? Why because it looks really good and they say it's really amazing, and I'm it I'm really want to play some turn-based combat. Is it really amazing?

SPEAKER_03 46:04

It is, it is a fantastic game.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

It is a fantastic game, but it you know what it is? I I have an itch to do a turn-based game. And honestly, like I'm enjoying Baldur's Gate with you guys. I don't like I want that to be my run. Yeah. Right? Because if I'm playing it alone, I might pass where we are, and I don't want that. I want you guys to have all my genuine reactions as we play it together. Like, if if we never finish the campaign, I won't ever be heartbroken over it because I've played it with you guys. You know what I mean? It's not a game that I must be.

SPEAKER_03 46:50

My honest answer about Metaphor Refantasio for you, Marcus, is I don't know if you'll like it. There are so many conversations in that game. It's a lot of reading people talk, and then there's also a lot of listening to people talk. And you don't have the parry system and dodge system like you did in Expedition 33, so it's it's turn-based, so when it's the enemy's turn, they're gonna hit you. Yeah. And I really enjoyed it, but it's by the same it's by Atlas, and they create persona, so of course I loved it. It's basically a persona game, but in a high fantasy setting instead of a high school setting.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

So my question is, they have a prologue demo that I can try. Yeah, you should do that. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 47:59

Did you ever like it? The thing about a prologue demo is like if it's a demo, like I find like if it's like really boring, I'm gonna be turned off from the game because it's not gonna be like the game.

SPEAKER_03 48:13

The opening of the game has a nice little sequence of battles, and you meet the characters that are your opening party. It's it's a good demo, it's the actual beginning of the game.

Closing Jokes And Book Callback

SPEAKER_01 48:25

Okay, great. Perfect. Fantastic. You wanna know what else is awesome? My book sold out at PAX East. It did.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

Hey, hey, uh Doritos, once all this book money comes in, he's buying us new computers. Continue the journey.