Reinventing Entrepreneurship - Innovation, Improvisation & Figuring S**t out at 61 with Ellen Feldman Ornato

What kind of reinvention magic can we create in our 60s?

What if we leaned into our inner voice, trusted our gut, and created something that added value to the world in fun and inspiring ways?

And what if that creation included working side by side with our best friend to help women find their empowered voices through comedy improv?

Such is the awakened and adventurous reinvention journey of 61-year young Ellen Feldman Ornato.

This fierce, fabulous and empowered Reinvention Rebel knows a thing or two about reinvention.

Like many of us, Ellen has reinvented herself many times as an adult. But her current reinvention as co-owner of Bolder Company (don't you just love this name?!) is definitely her best and most fulfilling.

How cool is it to have an expansive Reinvention Rebels mindset where age is simply a number, not a limit?

Where new possibilities abound if we seek them out? 

Where we can keep on dreaming and making those goals a reality, along the way uncovering our wisdom and a deep awakening about how we shine?

There are so many nuggets of wisdom and deep insights in this episode. I love what Ellen shares about:

✅ How having fun and leaning into her non-linear career path helped lay the groundwork for her current reinvention
✅ Why consistent action is key to moving forward with our reinvention dreams
✅ How midlife women can build in more fun and develop their self-expression muscle
✅ Why "what are you afraid of?" is a key question to ask yourself as you reinvent
✅ How you can spark joy through building new, creative muscles
✅ Why improv is a gateway to self-expression and helps us find our authentic voice
✅ How we can use improv as a way to elevate and support one another
✅ Why women need to learn to find their bold voices and let them out to help change the world.

Ready for a big dose of inspiration to fuel your midlife reinvention path? This is the perfect elixir, full of delight and possibilities! You can't help but connect with Ellen's interesting life and reinvention path, and see a part of yourself in her story.

Connect with Ellen:

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ellen.ornato
Instagram: @emfo444
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ellen-feldman-ornato/
Website: https://www.theboldercompany.com

Mentioned in the episode:

Kick your midlife fears and uncertainty to the curb and start your Reinvention Rebels journey today. Learn about my audio program, Midlife Reinvention From The Inside Out: 8 Essentials to Greenlight Your Life.

Midlife women ready to reinvent themselves start with being curious about what's possible. Download my free audio, 5 Questions to Spark Your Curiosity & Inspire Your Reinvention Rebel Journey to get started today. 

Transcript

Ellen: I think that we take our cues from the world of improvisation. Follow your feet, which an improv, just means take the next little step, trust yourself enough to step out. Get off of the backline, which is where you see them improvisers standing off to the side waiting to insert themselves into the conversation, follow your feet and get off the backline. Just start something. It doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be for anyone but yourself, and it has to be of your choosing for you.

[Reinvention Rebels theme]

Wendy: Welcome to Reinvention Rebels, stories of brave and unapologetic women, 50 to 90 years young, who have boldly reimagined life on their own terms, to find new purpose and possibilities. I'm your host, Wendy Battles. Ready for a dose of inspiration? Let's get to it.

Hello, hello, hello, Reinvention Rebels. Welcome to another episode of the Reinvention Rebels Podcast. I am so excited that you have joined me today. I always bring it with some amazing guests. And today, is no exception. Here in a couple moments, I will introduce you to my amazing guest. But first, let's talk for just a moment, and I have to ask you this really important question. Did you have a chance to listen to the last episode one of my all-time favorites with my sweet mama, Elaine Battles? 89-year young Elaine Battles. The amazing, almost 90 active and engaged Elaine Battles. It was a treat. It was pure joy. It was so much fun to be in conversation with my mom about her reinvention journey, what she's experienced, her challenges, how she's overcome them and the power of role models. The strong fierce women within our family that helped pave the way for many of her reinventions. If you haven't had a chance to listen, I encourage you to take 45 minutes to lean in and listen to this episode. So much inspiration. She really is a joy and full of so many great ideas at 89. I've linked to it in the show notes, you can easily find it. I hope you'll check it out and let me know what you think. 

Today, I'm very excited to introduce you to someone who is so cool. someone I've known for many, many years. And she is an amazing Reinvention Rebel. She has reinvented herself in many different ways during many different decades of her life, including her most recent one. So, sit back, relax, and let me introduce you to my guest today, Ellen Feldman Ornato. 

At 61, Ellen Feldman Ornato has been around the reinvention block, many times. She's not afraid of self-exploration, starting fresh, having multiple do overs, and reinventing herself in ways that align with her life and values. She has been a city planner and economic development official, and a marketing director in a large retail chain. She is an entrepreneur at heart and also owned a learning company, and a marketing and public relations firm. I had the pleasure of meeting the fabulous Ellen Ornato, when we were both diversity trainers for the Anti-Defamation League many decades ago. 

While her earlier reinventions generated learning and new experiences. They were ultimately preparing her for the most recent and exciting reinvention as the co-owner of The Bolder Company with her best friend, Jenny. Can you imagine reinventing yourself doing something that you love and find fun, but also brings out fun and silliness in your clients? Ellen and Jenny help individuals and teams make positive changes in their communication and behaviors through fully experiential improvisation-based learning. Yep, improv. 

Second City shenanigans in the workplace that bring out our humanity and connection to one another in bold, confident ways, and the idea that we can always continue to grow. You will love our conversation about reinvention, developing our bold muscles and stepping into the light to share our immense gifts with the world. Ellen reminds us that possibility lives within each of us, no matter our age, that we all have inner greatness. We just have to build the courage and confidence to uncover it. Ellen Ornato, welcome to the Reinvention Rebels guest chair.

Ellen: Oh, my goodness, I am so excited. I am so excited to talk with you. I really appreciate you're having me on. And, Wendy, when you were describing that, I was like, “Oh, my goodness, that was a significantly long time ago that you and I met as trainers at the ADL.” [crosstalk] 

Wendy: Forever ago. It seems like a lifetime ago considering all the other things we both have done since then. 

Ellen: Yeah. We're both emeritus status now, that says something. [laughs] 

Wendy: It’s that long ago. We've moved on to other cool things-

Ellen: Yes, we have.

Wendy: [crosstalk] -in the world, but it's so fun when I get to interview people that I know and adore, and enjoy being around and have this history with. I'm all excited about our conversation today. I have so many questions for you. I thought I might start at the beginning, so to speak, because I know that as we age, many women are doing less as they age. Perhaps, less involved, less active for whatever reason. But you seem like you are doing more at 61, almost 62. You have a willingness in my mind to go there when it comes to self-reflection and growth. I'm curious, what has fueled your thirst to reinvent yourself?

Ellen: I always feel there's something more that I want to try, something more than I want to be. And it doesn't really come from a place of not good enough. It comes from a place of curiosity and passion and the belief that "I'm never too old to learn, never too old to grow." Somebody told me the other day, they use this thing like, “When you're in your 60s, it's your go-go years, and when you're in your 70s, it's your go-slow years. And when it's in your 80s, it's your no-go years.” Kind of talking about the limitations that can evolve over time because of physical illness or whatever. I want to be in my go-go years when I'm in my 80s. I think that should be the base. 90s, I can go slow. My work, I've always just followed my curiosity, which is my career path is more like a ride on a roller coaster at six flags than it is an actual path. It's my path, and it's worked well. Right now, if we sat down and you said, “What do you want to do next?” I have five different tangents that I could go in that are distinct things that I'd like to do and try, besides being the co-founder of Bolder Company.

Wendy: Right. I love that. I love that you have such curiosity. It's really interesting that you said, "curiosity and passion." 

Ellen: Yeah.

Wendy: Because I think those are really key ingredients to having a life that we love, where we feel really alive, that kind of feeling that you want to have not just in your 60s, as you are now, but in your 80s. Still, this kind of vibrancy and curiosity is such a common thread among the Reinvention Rebels that I interview, including my mom, who I just interviewed and she said the same thing that she's always been curious. That's how at 89, she’s involved in all kinds of things, and doing all kinds of things, and out being productive in the world in her own way. So, I think that that is something that really resonates with me. I think for people that are midlife women, older women that are trying to find themselves or figure out what's next, I always feel that's a really good place to start some self-inquiry.

Ellen: Mm-hmm. I agree. One of the best pieces of advice that I got early on in my career, I did a couple of dips into multilevel marketing. In addition to always having a full-time job, and sometimes even a full-time job and kids, I was always looking at the next great opportunity. 

Wendy: [laughs] 

Ellen: Amway twice, all these different multilevel marketing businesses. But one of the times that I was at one of these big conventions, somebody said from the stage that “95% of success in life is just showing up.” I tend to over schedule my life with things to show up for. I can't say I make it 100% of the time, but It's always running in the back of my mind that I should just go, because if I go, something will happen. I'll meet somebody, I'll learn something. At the very least, I will get out of my soft pants and into pants with a waistband--

Wendy: [laughs] 

Ellen: -and leave my house. 

Wendy: That’s [crosstalk] true. 

Ellen: That was even before COVID. It's just that I love to be out with people. I get energy from people.

Wendy: I swear, we're so similar, Ellen. We’re so similar in that note. And who drew me into [unintelligible [00:10:31] but you. [laughs] Remember?

Ellen: Oh, that's right. Yes, I do. 

Wendy: Oh, my gosh, like back in the day.

Ellen: [unintelligible [00:10:38] today, but I could be on any given day.

Wendy: But we've been connected in multiple ways over the years. 

Ellen: Yes, we have. 

Wendy: I really love it. I know that you've reinvented yourself many times over many decades, often in very different ways. What's different about this most recent reinvention?

Ellen: Well, I've been self-employed since 1997. In 1997, I got a call from my boss while I was sitting on the couch nursing my daughter. She was four weeks old. He told me that my job had been eliminated. And it created a moment in time where I had to make a choice. Unfortunately, my husband and I had enough resources and he said, “Why don't you try starting your own business?” From 1997 until late 2014, I did my own thing. I was a consultant. I worked for other businesses. Sometimes, it was in marketing and PR. Sometimes, it was picking up that thread of diversity training and adding other tools to my training tool belt, where I was going into it either designing training and delivering it or working as a per diem trainer for other organizations. And then I started doing improv with Jenny, my business partner, who's also a very close friend, who I met at an Amway meeting. We like to say, we ditch the business and kept each other. She called me and said, “I'm going to go do this improv class. It's called physical improv.” I'm like, “Hey, I've never done improv and I don't know what physical improv is. But if you're suggesting we go, let's do it.”

We went to, it was CT improv in Hartford. I still remember the class. They had us pretend we were file cabinets and gears in a clock and we had to create a machine with each other. I was like, “This is more fun than I've had in a very long time.” We laughed the whole time and I said, “Okay.” That just lit up a whole part of me in my brain. That has clearly been because I have a lot of gravitas around certain issues, around DEI, and wanting to be the change, and make a difference in the world, and this was just pure silly. There was nothing to do in improv, but be silly. So, she enrolled in an improv class and I just followed along, and then started taking class after class after class after class. What started to evolve for me was an awareness that I was building skills inside of learning improvisation that translated directly that the work that I was doing in training. 

My listening got better, I was in the moment with people, I was additive in my conversations with people instead of hijacking the conversation from others, and I was already doing enough training that I realized that it could really embellish the work that I was doing and create a new way for me to integrate into training, so that people could interact with each other in a much more meaningful way. 

Brain science tells us that when we laugh, we learn more. When we light up our brains with laughter and connection and love, our body just floods with all the good stuff and we have more access to confidence and laughter and connection. I started doing the improv. I noticed that there were days when it wasn't so great. I'd go home gripping the steering wheel going, “Why the hell am I doing this? God, that was terrible.” But mostly, it was fun. And then we entered into an improv festival in Hartford, and then we had an improv group, and Jenny called me one day and said, “You know, there's this thing called the Applied Improvisation Network.” I said, “Cool. What's that?” She says, “People who are doing what we've been doing. Adding and using exercises from improv and adding them into the work that they're doing.” She said, “They're having a conference in Austin, Texas. Want to go?” “"Hell, yeah." A, Austin and B, improv.

We went to this conference and found our tribe. Cool, fun, engaging, crazy, connective, generous. I was like, “Wow, these people are home.” Immediately these people, these improvisational people, these people who say yes and figure things out, they were home. They were the community that I had been looking for, she'd been looking for, and we were literally sitting on a curb at a food truck eating burritos, when we looked at each other and said, “Why don't we figure out how to do something together?” 

In answer to your question that you asked a very long time ago, [chuckles] the way that this current iteration is different is that I'm engaged in, A, something that just always lights me up with a close, dear friend, with whom I've grown into a much better business person. And we are hiring and we are doing work internationally and we're speaking on bigger stages all the time. My goal all along was to become some level of thought leader. But in running in the back of my mind, I was always about like, “In what?”

Wendy: [laughs] 

Ellen:  I'd love to be a thought leader, but what the thoughts I think? I don't know. [chuckles] But just today, I was on a panel for Bowling Green State University's doctoral program and organizational development talking about applied improvisation as a tool for collaborative change. So, I guess, I got to thought leader as a result of getting really into this modality of OD, of organizational development and training.

Wendy: I think that’s fascinating. 

Ellen: Yeah.

Wendy: I love that. One of the things that really strikes me is this idea that sometimes, there's something we want. You said, “I want to be a thought leader. I don't know how," because sometimes, we don't know the how. We have this dream or we have this goal, we don't know the how of it happening and I think part of it is taking action. Sometimes, those things become revealed to us as in your case. And I also think that when we're doing something that we love as you talked about that you're so passionate about, that lights you up, that you get to do. This was someone who you really have this deep connection with, that things can unfold in such interesting ways and we can find our way.

Ellen: Yes.

Wendy: We don't always know our way at the beginning. I think about that a lot with reinvention that sometimes, we all want to know the answers, we want to just have more certainty, we want to just be like, “I want to do X, Y, and Z and it's going to happen.” Life [audio cut] so not like that. 

Ellen: No. 

Wendy: [audio cut] -from past. But I think it's so fascinating that you did put out into the world what you wanted to do. You didn't really know how it was going to show up. It showed up in this really amazing way, because you were so open to this. 

Ellen: Mm-hmm.

Wendy: I see the manifestation of this now.

Ellen: Oh, definitely. And very assertive business development in some regards. Part of what I've gotten good at doing, because I handle a lot of the business development is looking at conferences that are coming up and looking at their agendas. It's like panel after keynote after panel after keynote after panel. I've started to say, “What industries do we want to work in? What stages do we want to be on?” Our offer always to these organizations is, we bring an element of interactivity to your organization and your event that elevates the level of fun, engagement, connection, networking, and they learn a skill while they're doing it. And they're always like, “Hmm, okay." So, now, we do work nationally with the women in manufacturing. Having been associated with them now for three years, almost all of our clients are manufacturers, which is an ideal fit for a lot of reasons with our company. But it's also a place where women are starting to grow in terms of presence and it's not an environment that has been historically friendly to women. 

Women have had to adapt in a man's world, and now, things are really shifting. And so, we're part of that be the change thing. What we see is, a whole generation of leaders moving off towards golf courses and wherever they're retiring to. And they're leaving the next level of leadership within these organizations was trained by them. If they had a very militaristic, "do as I say, not as I do" kind of way of organizing work and world, these folks need to be reconditioned, if you will. They don't all need it, but a lot of them need to because their sights were always set on how do I please the people who are leaving. And now, they're looking at the generations that are coming into the workplace going [gasps]. 

The way we were taught to lead is so ill-fitted to what this group of incoming people needs. And so, we're like, “Yes, they want to engage with you. They want to bring their ideas to you. They want to be nurtured. They want to learn.” It's not that they need a trophy. It's that they want to contribute and be acknowledged for it. Let's look at the gifts of the millennial generation who said, “No, I'm not working 80 hours a week. Your job is just not that valuable to me,” which completely reorganized how businesses need to think about their profit centers. Anyway, so that's fascinating to me. 

Wendy: It really is.

Ellen: Where evolution is happening in business and how we can insert the way that we develop people in a way that moves organizations forward.

Wendy: It's fascinating. The work that you're doing, the opportunities that it's afforded, and how-- One thing, I think, too, because so much of this in reinventing yourself is getting started and then being consistent. Whatever that thing is, it doesn't matter what it is, what your dream is, what your goal is, you just have to keep at it. 

Ellen: Yes.

Wendy: This just reminds me listening to you talk about this, listening to how you have consistently worked with fun and connection to build this business. You see now how it is growing, which can be applied to anything we want to do in our lives, whether it's a business or it's something that skill we want to learn or how we want to take up. There's that period where you got to figure it out, and you have to believe you can do it, so, it does take some of those kinds of things. Often, I think of patience and trust, but also ease. It doesn't have to be so hard. 

Ellen: Right.

Wendy: You're such a great testament to this. So, I really love that. I know that over your many reinventions, Ellen, over many different years of doing many different things, you have learned a lot of different lessons. 

Ellen: Mm-hmm.

Wendy: I'm curious about what has been an impactful lesson you've learned in your most recent reinvention, this current one, with The Bolder Company that has surprised you?

Ellen: One of the areas of content that we teach is the five behaviors of cohesive teams. There are five layers within the construct. The first being trust. Jenny and I have, I would say pretty bullet proof trust of each other, which started over beers at my house in Vermont, where we both went to our corners and wrote down all the things we were afraid of about starting our business together, because we had already gone through-- We had spent two days like, “What are your assets? What are my assets? Who's our ideal client?" Like all the blah, blah, blah business planning stuff. Then we're like, “Well, we don't want to blow this ship apart. So, what are the things we're afraid of?" The number one thing was that we would lose our friendship with each other. 

The house can burn down, but we are each other's people. And so, that's tantamount to everything else. We have trust, where we both needed to grow and I continue to need to grow is in effectively managing conflict. Mastering conflict. I'm one of the founding members of Conflict Avoidance Anonymous. 

Wendy: [laughs] I remember, too.

Ellen: Yeah. I'd rather pass than get in the argument. But the thing is that that just perpetuates resentment and bad practices. We've both gotten really much better at just saying what needs to be said. I've said to Jenny, I'm like, “I'm a big girl. So, you can say what you need to say to me. I can't promise I'm going to like it. I can't promise I'm not going to cry, but I can promise that I will listen and I won't be mad at you for saying what you need to say.” So, that's been a huge learning for me, because we get into our familiar relationships and our relationships with our significant others. There's conflicts we take on, there's conflicts we don't take on. But when you're in business together and it's about money, or it's about getting stuff done, or it's about how much we're paying people, or any of the millions of other things that we have to talk about that require candor, we have to be willing to engage in conflict. So, that has been my number one. 

My number two is, we have gotten much better at holding each other to the commitments we make. We've gotten more explicit about the commitments we're making and we've gotten better at holding each other accountable for the commitments we make and we still screw up as recently as last week. We are always evolving. We're trying to live the work we're teaching.

Wendy: Yeah.

Ellen: It's like going into a diversity session and not having done the work yourself and trying to tell other people what they need to do. For me, that's such an integrity check. In fact, during Black Lives Matter, I sat back, I actually called Michelle, a mutual friend of ours and said, “How do you find your voice in this? I feel I don't have standing to say anything in all of what's going on right now. I feel I have to go back to school and learn more and read more.” She said, “Well, you do. And also, given your history and passion for this, why wouldn't you speak? Why wouldn't you say?” You need that moment of courage of saying, “I am enough in this conversation to guide the conversation. I don't have to know everything to be part of it.”

Wendy: Yes.

Ellen: I need to show up with empathy, integrity to be willing to take hard questions to be willing to look inside. The extent to which I'm vulnerable and say, “There's a lot I don't know.” I don't expect anyone to teach it to me. I need to figure it out. I can read and I can listen, and I can-- what, all those things. It's important to me to always be living that thing that we're teaching and it's really hard sometimes.

Wendy: It is.

Ellen: Because I would really rather watch Love at First Sight on Netflix.

Wendy: Yeah, I know. Doing that hard work, however that manifests for any of us, whatever those things are, like, I how you spoke to, well, I've gotten better. I'm surprised I've gotten better at dealing with conflict. The notion that we are always evolving, we continue to evolve. It doesn't matter how old we are. 

Ellen: Mm-hmm.

Wendy: We all have experiences that if we're open to them, it can help us grow, and expand, and really blossom in new ways. That's part of what I hear you saying that it's been this-- I think you're an awakened person, but you're continuing down that path, there's always more possibility for greater awakening for all of us when it comes to our self-development. I love that because I think that's such a key thing about reinvention. If we're open to reinventing yourselves, we're open to looking deeply at ourselves and thinking about what's possible.

Ellen: And also, giving ourselves a break. 

Wendy: Totally.

Ellen: Jenny and I just spoke at this big trade show in Atlanta, two weeks ago. And the picture that we took in front of-- There was a full banner of the session we were teaching, and we stood on either side, and we had the pictures and we're going to use it for marketing. I took one look at the picture and my inner critic was like, “No way, are they you using that picture?” I look like I am like one big amorphous blob between my hips and my neck. I hate this photo of me. We can't use it. All of my insecurities about appearance just came blazing out of my fat mouth with my marketing team and they're just sitting there and smiling at me and they're like, “You really need to be kinder to yourself. This is not a bad photo.” I was like, “Yes, but, hmm.” So, I'm always battling my own demons. 

The good news is that I call on them much more quickly, I see them for who they are. I don't say, “Why am I feeling so angry right now?” I just say, “That picture stinks and I'm going to use it anyway because there's a business imperative here and I don't have another alternative.” The alternative would be to not be there at all. I'm very committed to not deleting myself out of my own life.

Wendy: Yeah. And I think that that's so key because I think as women especially, we are so self-critical, we offer ourselves so little grace often. We have this whole idea of trying to be perfect. But there's so many lessons to be learned in those imperfections. Leaning into, it's going to be okay, because I think we spent all this time being critical of ourselves and other people don't even see it, first of all.

Ellen: Yes. [laughs]  

Wendy: It's incredibly vain that we're like, “I look terrible,” and people like, “Well, I don't see it at all and you look fine.”

Ellen: Right.

Wendy: Moving on. 

Ellen: [crosstalk] [laughs] 

Wendy: It's not that big deal. 

Ellen: "Besides, I'm worried about me, not you. So, how do I look," right? 

Wendy: Exactly.

Ellen: Did you do the Landmark forum as well? Do I remember that about you? 

Wendy: I did. Oh, my gosh. 

Ellen: When that--  

Wendy: A whole another thing.

Ellen: Yeah, that was one of the punch lines from Landmark, is that everybody's walking around so self-conscious about what the world is thinking of them. The truth is, people are thinking about themselves, not you. 

Wendy: Exactly. 

Ellen: All the time, everybody's thinking about themselves. [laughs] 

Wendy: Yeah, I know. It's interesting that we can go there.

Ellen: Yeah.

[music]

Wendy: Hey, Reinvention Rebels, are you loving this episode with the amazing Ellen Feldman Ornato? It's so good, right? So much wisdom, so much fun, so much possibility as we age, as she is so beautifully talks about. If you are loving this inspiration, I want to encourage you to pop over to reinventionrebels.com and sign up for my news and notes. I share all kinds of inspiration delivered to your inbox every two weeks. Let's get inspired together. 

[music]

One thing that I love about what you're doing now is that it is incredibly fun. Like laughing so hard, you might start crying kind of fun.

Ellen: Yes, we hope so. 

Wendy: I know that most of us don't get enough of that. But I also know that as women, we tend to take ourselves very seriously. We talked about already how we tend to be hard on ourselves, we want to get everything right. And so, we don't always give ourselves permission to lean into fun. I am curious about how you think midlife and older women can build their fun muscle.

Ellen: Well, I'm glad you ask that, because I think that taking an improv class is a gateway to self-expression. I really do. We work with lots of people who are very-- they have things to say and their voices don't come out of their mouth. They say quiet inside their heads and they have something to say in the world. And so, early on, when Jenny and I created our curriculum, we created this program called Connect & Standout. It was all about channeling and being seen doing things, silly things, like passing an invisible ball to each other, or I say a word, you say a word back. Then we say another word, then we make up a story, a word at a time, and then we make a story, a sentence at a time. I'm very focused on not failing you. So, I get out of my head and into the moment and then I realized that it's okay to be in the moment. It's okay to screw up in the moment, because improv, it comes, it goes, it's done. It's like a post-it note. Just [pssst] it’s done. If you do a bad scene, who cares? You did a bad scene. If you say the wrong thing, there's no wrong thing. Just say the thing and the person across from you--

See, part of the agreement in improv is, if you say something and I process it like, “I don't understand why she said that, but I'm going to say yes and I'm going to make her right.” That's my job is to make you right. If say to you, for example, “The sky is blue,” and you say, “Huh.” I was looking up at the sky and I didn't see anything. That's a block. We could stop the whole scene. If I say, “Well, take off your sunglasses.” Now, the scene keeps rolling again. It's that willingness to be in the moment, listen to what the person said, go to the next thing, and realize that there's no judgement in where you decide to go. When you do enough improvisation, you realize there actually are rules, like, whose line is it anyway doesn't happen by magic. There are some real rules in improv that help guide the way that we interact with each other, and guide the way that where the scene might go and there are structures and all this cool stuff. I've done musical improv, which is crazy hard to be making up a song on the spot with put specific like--

Wendy: That sounds hard. [laughs] 

Ellen: It's a sentence with three words. It's a sentence with four words, and whatever cadence. And it has to make sense and the audience has to enjoy it. That's a lot. 

Wendy: That's a lot. 

Ellen: Then it is so ridiculously fun. Oh, my goodness, you can't be self-conscious and be doing that. You have to be in that moment. I know you do a lot with breathing and with meditation, yoga. Doing improvisation is meditation but laughing. Only because you can't be doing two things at one time. You can breathe or you can be in scene. The thing is, if you're in a scene and you're in your head, you miss the scene. 

Wendy: Right, exactly. If you're already think about like, “Oh, maybe I could do this, maybe I could do that” instead of just reacting.

Ellen: Yeah, you can't think ahead. If you think ahead, you thought wrong, especially we do the circle games all the time where we'll say, “Okay, so, we're going to build a story, a sentence at a time.” And you see people disappear into their heads. A, they're going to be seen. B, they have to say something, and C, what they want to say the right thing. By the time it gets to them, they haven't been listening to the three people right before them.

Wendy: Right. And then I understand that, too, how we could do that. Because sometimes, that perfection, "I want to get it right."

Ellen: Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah.

Wendy: I think as women, they like that certainty. We want to feel we're doing a good job. 

Ellen: Yep. 

Wendy: But it sounds to me, one of the things I hear you saying is that if you're willing to lean in and be present. One, it can be incredibly enjoyable but also, it sounds very freeing. 

Ellen: Yes. It's freeing and it's also-- When you talk about brain health and the things that keep us sharp, it's like a sharpening blade for your brain, because you have to be in the moment and saying something. You have to be present to the scene. When you get better at it, you can take on accents and make yourself sound like you come from somewhere else and well character can be embodied, the way that you move and the way that you talk. You could just make stuff up. When you do that, if you have good scene partners, they then drop into whatever ridiculous accent you're trying to make and then you have a whole scene about something that-- Right? 

Wendy: [laughs] Right. 

Ellen: Because there's an agreement that we're here to make each other look good, imagine if that happened in corporate America every day that you would show up at work with the agreement that my job is to learn as much about you as possible, so that I can elevate you and make you look good.

Wendy: Yeah, what a concept that would be. 

Ellen: Yeah.

Wendy: I just think there's so much possibility and then if we're-- Especially thinking about just midlife women that are reinventing themselves.

Ellen: Yes.

Wendy: Just dipping their toe in to the creativity of this. Even if you aren't going to have a career in improv, which most people aren't, it's still to me a gateway to more creativity, which could fuel the ideas that might lead to your reinvention in midlife or older at whatever age at 75, 90. It doesn't even matter.

Ellen: Yeah. 

Wendy: I love that. 

Ellen: Well, one of the places where we had a toehold early in our business was with authors, and specifically, women authors, because they had taken all this time and energy to write a book. The process of writing a book is a very internal, private thing. They finally get it done, and they launched the book, and then they realized with horror that the next step is to go out and do speaking engagements, so that people will actually buy their books. 

Wendy: Right.

Ellen: And it's a completely opposite set of skills that was required to do the book. We worked with a lot of authors over time and people who had to deliver their dissertations, so that they could get more comfortable with being seen and heard. And who doesn't want to hear mature women's voices right now? We have all the goods.

Wendy: Ah, we do. 

Ellen: Right?

Wendy: Totally and completely.

Ellen: And we really don't give a crap what other people think. 

Wendy: Exactly. 

Ellen: [chuckles] Just look at my Facebook page, you'll recognize that right away. So, that's an interesting thing in a walk of life where you're seen as the CEO of a company or co-CEO to then say, “Well, I have political opinions, too.” So, how do we separate those as a whole other conversation? 

Wendy: Right.

Ellen: Yeah. Because I'm pretty big mouth when it comes to politics, for sure.

Wendy: I like that. And I like that you're being your authentic self, because I think at the end of the day, no matter how old we are, no matter who we are, I think that when we can find that authentic voice, whatever that is, for any of us, that's when we can live full out. That's when we can feel we're living on purpose. That's where we can feel we can show up and just naturally shine our light in the world, in a room, wherever it is, with complete joy. To me, nothing is better than that. As we age, just seeing women step into that as you're suggesting and finding their bold voice. A bold voice can show up in any way. 

Ellen: Oh, yeah.

Wendy: It doesn't mean that you're the loudest person in the room. 

Ellen: No, not at all.

Wendy: Being who you are, and I think that is the best feeling that I've had in my 50s, is finding that voice, which I feel took me forever to find. But once you do, once you find that thing that makes you shine, it reminds me that anything is possible.

Ellen: Definitely. The other thing that I would suggest is, if folks aren't comfortable with improv, consider storytelling. 

Wendy: Oh, yes.

Ellen: Everybody has a story to tell. Everybody has multiple stories to tell. On a lark, I invited a couple friends and we went to something in downtown Hartford. It was like the Hartford's storytelling championship or something like that. Basically, you just put your name in a hat. I had one story in mind and I hadn't practiced it really. 

Wendy: [laughs] 

Ellen: Then I had a couple of cocktails, because it was a Hartford Flavor Company and then they pull my name out of the hat. [chuckles] Oops. And I got bitten by the bug. Yeah, I love telling stories from stage. I love it, love it, love it. And I have a background in public speaking. But there are lots of people who teach storytelling. My friend, Terry Wolfisch Cole teaches at CT in Hartford, Denise Paige is now doing her own storytelling thing, and the Clinton Arts Council is doing storytelling. My friend, [crosstalk] Brown is involved in that. So, there are a lot of ways that you can get involved in storytelling in a low stakes environment to learn about how to construct a story, and to get some notes and feedback on doing it. I have to tell you, it is a gas. It is so much fun. Talk about biting your nails and then feeling like you just-- it was so delicious. It's wonderful.

Wendy: I [crosstalk] describe it that way. 

Ellen: Yeah.

Wendy: Delicious. I knew just what you mean, because I am enamored with people's stories. I'm fascinated by people's stories in their lives, and what they've experienced, and how they got to be where they are today and the things that helped form them, there's just so juicy, to your point about being delicious as someone who loves to listen to stories. I've never gotten up and told stories in that way, but I'm like, “Oh, I think I'd like that.”

Ellen: I think you would. I think it'd be awesome, too. [crosstalk] Everyone's awesome once they get the hang of it. 

Wendy: Yes. 

Ellen: The thing is that there are lots of opportunities, practice that are, as I said, low stakes environments. I'm not suggesting that you go to the Hartford Flavor Company and when they're doing this thing and drop your name in the hat, unless you're ready and don't have two cocktails, but--

Wendy: [laughs] 

Ellen: But there's so much good stuff. Matthew Dix is also-- We have a treasure here in Connecticut, this guy, Matthew Dix is now teaching storytelling all over the world. He's right here in Connecticut. He lives in, I think, Newington and he's written several books on storytelling. He started telling stories on a lark and now, he's won The Moth three, five times.

Wendy: Wow.

Ellen: Oh, yeah. 

Wendy: That’s amazing.

Ellen: He's amazing, but I guess, I don't need to go down that rabbit hole. But there are a lot of resources if people want to start telling stories. Write them down. Start thinking. Yeah, that's a whole other conversation.

Wendy: Well, I think those are both great ideas. The whole idea of how can we spark a reinvention ourselves, it can be through improv, it could be getting into your body, it could be just connecting that way, it could be this of telling your story.

Ellen: Yeah.

Wendy: I think those are both really compelling ways, sometimes get outside of ourself.

Ellen: Right.

Wendy: In this environment, that is perhaps a little uncomfortable and foreign, but that if you can-- Again, I feel so much of it goes back to, if we are open to possibilities and-

Ellen: Definitely.

Wendy: -don't have to already know it's going to mean this, or I want it to mean this, or it has to be this outcome. If we're not saying tied to the outcome but we're open to the how, we have our why and we're open to the how, it just lends itself to so many more possibilities than often our narrowly prescribed path.

Ellen: Right. The practice of practicing gets us to a level of ease with things or after a time that at first seemed really scary, you know? 

Wendy: Yeah.

Ellen: If we don't start, we never get better at it. If we practice consistently, we will always get better at it. There's a lot of joy that comes from getting better enough at something to say, “Hey, I did this. This is my doodle that I did while I was--" Sometimes, I post doodles on Instagram, because they're gorgeous. I'm actually very good at it. It’s something that-- [laughs] During COVID, I started doing all of those endless Zoom meetings, doing really elaborate doodles, and then adding color to them. 

Wendy: Wow.

Ellen: They're very pretty and I enjoy them so much. It's for me, it's not like I'm putting them in an art show or sending them away as gifts or put there for me. 

Wendy: Yeah, absolutely.

Ellen: It doesn't have to be for the world. You don't have to perform.

Wendy: Exactly. And so, I think that you just speak to the possibilities that exist for any of us. I think it also says that we can do this in bigger, small ways. Because I think that a lot of times we think we have to have it figured out, but I believe that this self-discovery that we're talking about, which is the key to reinventing ourselves is really an ongoing process. I heard you mentioned the words, like, "I have evolved."

Ellen: Oh, yeah. 

Wendy: Me too. 

Ellen: Yeah, we all have. 

Wendy: Yeah. 

Ellen: Somebody said to me the other day, “You've been married to the same man for 32 years?” I said, “Oh, no. Oh, no. If you were the same as he was 32 years ago, we wouldn't be married.” I'm not the same, he's not the same. We've evolved together. 

Wendy: Yeah. 

Ellen: We're very different people than when we met and we've had kids. It's an evolution over time.

Wendy: Yeah, exactly. How do you think you've learned to do with more ease? Because it sounds like, you've learned so much in all these things that you've done over the years. So, how do you embrace the journey of self-discovery and the challenges with more ease?

Ellen: The challenge with more ease is a big one for me. Huge. I actually have an executive coach, Wendy [unintelligible [00:47:04]. I don't know if you know her, I'm not sure. 

Wendy: Oh, I know. I love Wendy.

Ellen: I love Wendy, too. She's helping me develop Ellen 4.0, which is somebody who's not wrung out, strung out, stressed out, overwhelmed, because for all the bravado that you're hearing in my voice, my talk about my journey, there are times when I just put way, way, way too much on my plate. One trip to the buffet is all I'm committed to doing, but dammit, I'm going to put everything on my plate. And then the stuff starts falling off and I'm like, I don't know which one to catch first and I get really lost in the overwhelm. She's helped me to start to see, like, I am actually making great strides at making choices and being more assertive and saying what I need to say. And having less emotional attachment to outcomes, like, I feel I'm finally becoming a grown up. In spite of all the different career moves and all the different choices and the kids I've raised, it feels I'm giving birth to who I'm going to be for this next chapter.

Wendy: It feels you're stepping into your best self. 

Ellen: I am. Part of my best self needs to learn how to say no.

Wendy: Yeah, me too. 

Ellen: Right? 

Wendy: Yeah-- [crosstalk] 

Ellen: I want to do it. 

Wendy: I know.

Ellen: [laughs] 

Wendy: You and I are so alike. 

Ellen: [laughs] 

Wendy: When I hear yours, I'm like, “Yes, yes, yes. "I know that feeling of the overwhelm and then the things aren't-- I'm doing a better job of saying no myself, which is empowering, because so much of this is about how do we empower ourselves. 

Ellen: Yes. 

Wendy: And be able to not have to be the yes people that maybe I was in the past, where I would say, “Yes, yes, yes,” because I felt bad or I don't want to disappoint people and I'm like, “Look, I can't do that.”

Ellen: I can't do that. 

Wendy: Yeah. Or, there’s something else I'd rather do than that. Someone asked me to help them on a board I was on which I love, but I already committed to something else and I said, “I'm really sorry, but I can't do that.”

Ellen: Yeah. I choose me.

Wendy: I choose me.

Ellen: I choose me. I have to choose me more often. And having raised a couple of children and really dedicating a lot of my life when they were in high school and all of that is to sports and things like that. I was never the cookie baking mom, but I was there. This notion of taking time for me and saying no even to things like, “No, I don't want to go away for the weekend, I need to rest and I won't rest if we're in the car for six hours and we're on the go the whole weekend." I come home depleted, even though it was a lot of fun. 

Wendy: Yeah, I know.

Ellen: That whole idea that I need to recharge and I'm really mad that-- [laughs] 

Wendy: I know. I feel the same way. It's not when I was in my 20s, you could go party all weekend.

Ellen: Exactly.

Wendy: Just have this endless energy and you could just make it work. Now I'm like, “Look, I do need that time and I don't feel I have to be out doing all these things.” There's still lots of things I love to do, but sometimes, I just say, “No, no, now's not the time.” Prioritizing ourselves, I think is also key to reinventing ourselves.

Ellen: Well, most definitely. One thing I know about myself for sure is that social isolation is kryptonite for me. It absolutely kills me to not be in community. And so, COVID was interesting for me, because I saw community through this little screen that we're talking on and felt connected to others, but the physical presence thing was really missing. So, now, the gate is like a quarter of the way down and we're free to go outside, I'm going outside. 

Wendy: Yeah.

Ellen: And I don't mean hiking in the woods, because I did that, and I do that. I mean, just being in community with other people, which still feels a bit risky, but God, my heart is so much fuller now.

Wendy: I know what you mean. We've missed that and it's so key to, for me, thriving. 

Ellen: Mm-hmm.

Wendy: Yeah, I make do, of course, because what else could you do during the pandemic? We can do that and we do it whatever we need to do, but I hear you. Ellen, as we wrap up, are there any last words of wisdom you want to share with the audience about the possibility that exists for reinvention for midlife and older women?

Ellen: [sighs] Well, I think that we take her cues from the world of improvisation. Follow your feet, which an improv, just means, take the next little step, trust yourself enough to step out, get off of the backline, which is where you see them. Improvisers standing off to the side waiting to insert themselves into the conversation, follow your feet and get off the backline. Just start something. It doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be for anyone but yourself, and it has to be of your choosing for you. I think that if we can do more of that and be in community with each other and support each other while we're doing that, then we all have more joy and happiness and connection, which for me, that's food, that nourishes me. That makes me happy. It brings me joy. I really appreciate this opportunity to talk to you about this, because this isn't really something I elaborate on very often, but it's clearly right there for me. 

Wendy: Yeah, it really is.

Ellen: Thank you. 

Wendy: You're so welcome. Thank you. I love this idea of just that first step, as tiny as it might be. Maybe it's just a phone call. 

Ellen: Yeah. 

Wendy: Or, googling something that you just keep have a recurring thought about that it just doesn't go away, maybe it's a sign, I should investigate this.

Ellen: Yeah. There are online improv classes. If people don't want to leave home, you can do improvisation online. It's super fun. 

Wendy:  Super fun. [audio cut] 

Ellen: Super fun. 

Wendy: That’s so cool. What is possible these days? Almost anything. I love it. I know the audience is saying, “Well, where can I find out more about Ellen? She's so cool.” How can people reach you? How can they find you?

Ellen: Well, our website is theboldercompany.com and it's bolder like "be bolder," not Boulder, Colorado. So, theboldercompany.com is a place to find me. I'm also on LinkedIn, and I'm on Facebook, and I'm on Instagram, and you can find me. 

Wendy: Everywhere. 

Ellen: Yeah, I'm Ellen at theboldercompany.com.

Wendy: I love it and we'll put all this in the show notes. 

Ellen: Thank you. 

Wendy: As you're listening to this, you're like, “I'm driving. I'm listening to this great podcast. I'm driving and I can't stop right now.” Not to worry. All of the links for Ellen, to reach Ellen are in the show notes. Ellen, I cannot thank you enough for gracing me with your presence, for sharing your wisdom, for telling your story. Speaking of storytelling, telling your story of evolving, and unfolding, and stepping into your fierce 61-year young self, so that you are shining your light for so many other people and have become a thought leader. I love that. I love your reinvention. I love what you've done and you're such a great testament to anything is possible. 

Ellen: Anything at all. 

Wendy: Anything, right? So, thank you, my friend.

Ellen: You're welcome. Thank you, my friend.

[music]

Wendy: Okay, I have to ask, did you love this episode as much as I did? Isn't Ellen so cool? And don't you love the idea of more fun? I think we could all use more of that these days. It's such fuel to help us think about our own reinvented life. If you loved this episode, I am going to ask you a very small favor. Would you please take a couple of minutes and forward this episode to two of your friends, colleagues, family members, anyone who could benefit from listening to our conversation, soak up some wisdom, and perhaps, think a little differently about their own life? So many possibilities in what Ellen shared. 

By the way, I have to tell you, I am so excited about the upcoming episode. In a couple of weeks, I'm going to introduce you to the amazingness of Franzie Jean-Louis, who was an opera singer, moved to France, and then reinvented herself as a mental fitness coach. What is that you ask? Well, of course, you got to tune in and find out. I can promise you that this episode is full of inspiration to get you thinking about your own life. Until then, keep shining your light in the world. The world needs you and I'll see you on the other side for the next episode.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]