Interview: How The Nationwide Building Society is approaching digital change | In conversation with Richard James, Ways of Working Enablement Leader at Nationwide

To get in touch with future questions or to be interviewed for a future episode, email hello@ratiopartners.co.uk or visit us at www.ratiopartners.co.uk

  In today's episode, we will explore 

1. The future role of the bank's branch network
2. The importance of having the right company culture to drive change
3. The challenge of moving beyond the status quo in a big organisation 
4. How the Nationwide have engineered their team structure so that teams are empowered to drive rapid change
5. How Nationwide approaching defining a great customer experience 

Transcript

RATIO Partners Re-imagining customer experiences in
financial services Ep 4 - Transcript
[00:00:00] Mario Kyriacou: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of the re-imagining
custom experiences in financial services podcast. I'm your host, Mario Kiriakou co-founder of
raDo Fs, the markeDng data and customer experience consultancy. This is the show where
we look to analyze how Fs brands can leverage digital to deliver experiences built, to solve
your customer's day-to-day challenges, really excited to be joined by Richard James ways of
working enablement leader at naDonwide building society.
[00:00:46] I enjoy my conversaDon, Richard who talks honestly and openly about his
experience in building digital and cultural change and why the two should not only work
together. It'd be built around understanding and solving customer challenges. Richard was
very open with the [00:01:00] work that he and his colleagues were working on at the, at the
naDonwide.
[00:01:03] And during this episode, we tackled a wide area from the role the bank branch
would play in the digital future. The importance that having the right culture is key to
achieving any form of sustainable and valuable transformaDon, the challenges facing large
businesses when looking to drive any sort of change.
[00:01:21] We looked at how naDonwide have set teams up and are empowered with the
tools and support they need, as well as the important, especially now the teams are working
remotely to maintain high team morale and moDvaDon, as well as looking at w and trying to
define what a good customer experience looks like within the context of NaDonwide's
business.
[00:01:42] Really in-depth interview on one. I think you enjoy.
[00:01:44] Richard James: [00:01:44] So, uh, Richard Davis, I've been working with
naDonwide for the last six and a half years now. Um, starDng to get background in large-scale
technology change, always been interested in, um, so the evoluDon of, of, of how teams
work around technology and solve interesDng [00:02:00] customer problems.
[00:02:01] So for the last. This is a naDonwide I've worked in sort of transformaDonal change,
um, across our core business lines, mortgages payments more recently I've been baking. And
then for the last two to three years, I focus back in on the technology organizaDon. Um, back
in 2018, 19, I spent a couple of years building out our digital transformaDon.
[00:02:20] So working to establish customer, uh, customer journey transformaDon in what
we would call our digital hubs. So tackling, um, product team setup. Um, around customer
journeys in our mortgages and our banking business, um, leveraging things like public cloud
and large scale DevOps, um, empowering teams. And so for a couple of years worth of that
journey.
[00:02:43] Real progress in helping naDonwide understand the transformaDonal journey
from shiZ sort of project to product ways of thinking. And in 2020, my now boss, Patrick
Eldridge asked me to sort of shiZ and take the learnings from digital transformaDon and help 
the enterprise more broadly adopt some of these more product [00:03:00] centric, customer
experience led ways of working.
[00:03:02] So my job now is ways of working enablement for the society and. Um, yeah, my,
my area of interest is everything from kind of service design and product thinking up front
through to lean agile techniques, um, improving the organizaDon's working pracDces and
principles all the way out to process simplificaDon, conDnuous improvement, Kaizen.
[00:03:21] Well, thank you very much, Richard. Um, I know when we spoke previously, you
know, we were discussing the various areas that you're focusing on that naDonwide. And a
lot of it was obviously a bunch of interesDng things, but one thing that I think stuck out. In
that iniDal conversaDon was talking about the importance of the branch to naDonwide,
which obviously is key at the moment because the branch has been, um, in effect
mothballed from large periods of the last 12 months.
[00:03:47] So it's, you know, a heavy historical, real estate that is unable to being used and
customers can't leave, which that funcDonality, which previously they would easily pop into a
branch and have a chat with someone and haven't had any sort of problems. And I was just
[00:04:00] wanDng to know in terms of. A pandemic driven, um, raced towards digitalizaDon
of services and just general decline across bank branches in UK and Europe.
[00:04:12] Know what role do you see the branch playing in the future? For me, the, the
Bronx network is ulDmately our first point of genuine differenDaDon, um, in terms of our
engagement with our, what we would cost as our members. And it's the point at which our,
um, ethical care and our belief in service can be demonstrated in a face-to-face context.
[00:04:36] And there's something sDll going back before the pandemic. There was something
really beauDful and posiDve about the way in which our brunch based colleagues really go
out of their way to ensure that the level of service and the. The kind of ethic of care that is it
naDonwide as a building, society is exemplified in all the interacDons and it's definitely been
the last sort of 12 plus months of, of pandemic [00:05:00] impacted, knocked down, have hit
our brunch colleagues ability to offer the compeDng service and that experience that they
would want.
[00:05:07] But sDll, you know, I've been up in an absolute or of how brunch colleagues have
conDnued to offer a service. And the service that is based on an ethic of love care, and sort
of differenDaDon of wanDng to go above and beyond the members, even whilst coping with
all of the different restricDons and lock downs and opening hours and security measures for
me that the branch is our, is our front line and the opportunity with the digital
transformaDon or digiDzaDon, I guess, in its simplest terms, is there to retain the funcDonal
aspects of those.
[00:05:44] Sort of customer needs, but crucially not losing the ethic of care that, that sense
of differenDated service, that sense of personal, um, personal experience, they really enjoy
the fact that, um, naDonwide, consistently users members, as [00:06:00] you know, you call
your customers members as opposed to customers.
[00:06:02] They're just, it implies just a much closer relaDonship than just a customer.
Supplier type relaDonship. And part of that, I suppose in my mind implies it is a closer 
relaDonship is making sure that relaDonship is echoed across different channels. And
obviously naDonwide is not going to be a digital, only service offering.
[00:06:22] They're not going to be like a, um, a Monzo way. Literally it's only access via your
Android or iPhone app. And that's the only real connecDon relaDonship that you have with
your bank. You can have a hybrid model. You know, stalls, telephone, um, you know, you
know, banking, desktop opDons, et cetera. I'm just curious around, I suppose, that idea
around humanizing that relaDonship with your members, digital and other, I mean, I suppose
digital plays one part, but also, uh, things like telephone services, you know, call centers.
[00:06:51] How do you envisage humanizing that relaDonship across those different
channels? Because I suppose this one says it's quite hard to replicate the [00:07:00]
experience that. Uh, you know, I owe yourself get from popping into a naDonwide branch,
and I'm just having a chat with someone that is absolutely at the heart of this transformaDon
journey.
[00:07:10] Is, is this sort of being able to translate and make that essence of care, what we
would class as digital with a human touch, make it coherent with the engagement you would
get in a branch, or when you find out one of our contact centers, how do you make it a
seamless experience? How do you make it something that, that actually.
[00:07:28] Does feel like you're, you're able to leverage digital channels in all that broader
spectrums to be there for your members in any way that they need you to be at the point of
need. So I think the, the ability to navigate a sort of self-service conversaDon where actually
short for a set of things. Our customers and our members just want access to quality
consistent, always their core banking services.
[00:07:58] But yet, do you know what, when you're talking [00:08:00] about buying your first
home or when you're talking about making decisions that will impact across generaDons, or
when you're thinking about the future, the opportunity to whether you start in digital and
maybe you end up back in digital, but that opportunity to connect with humans, the ability
to just.
[00:08:17] No, the a building society owned by its members are available to you to reach out,
to connects, to offer guidance to a few advice where advice is required without limiDng your
ability to navigate yourself for a number of different journeys. I just simply wanted to be
there and I want the experience you can create for me.
[00:08:39] Digitally on my own devices to feel seamless and to feel lovable as an experience,
simple, effecDve, accessible, but yet the addiDonal proposiDon, these sort of, um, what's
naDonwide is building society. Got, it's got this ability to reflect the ethic of care in the digital
self-serve agenda, and then connects you to a [00:09:00] colleague on a phone or a
colleague over, um, you know, the equivalent of a FaceTime or a video conversaDon and
access in a branch.
[00:09:07] Two experts that we'll be able to help guide you with the things that you're
wrestling with because not all things are simple self-service agendas. Some of them are lifechanging
some of them you just want to talk through. It's not as simple as self-serve you
want self-serve and access to, um, colleagues from within naDonwide that you trust who will
help you on your own. 
[00:09:26] I think you've done a good job. They've just arDculaDng what a good experience
is. And I was going to ask you a quesDon around. The definiDon of a good customer
experience, because it can vary dependent on the person you speak to within a big
organizaDon with an insurer or a bank. And I was just curious to know whether you can.
[00:09:45] Uh, elaborate on. Does naDonwide have a process for the finding a good
experience? Cause obviously the reason why I asked this, because someDmes it can vary
because people are focusing on the experience will be in the area of the same work we're
going to [00:10:00] bank within the area of the bank you work in.
[00:10:02] So if you're looking aZer the website, invariably, you're focused on the good
experience there. Whereas from the customer's point of view, They don't care about that.
They care about their overall experience of how and the moments they interact with you,
whether that's on a telephone problem to a branch or accessing, then I've got a query on the
solve on the app.
[00:10:20] It's the experience is agnosDc of channel. And I'm curious, is there a process with
defining that experience from the customer's perspecDve and what does that look? Yeah, the
really simple answer is that there isn't a single experience. We have 15 million unique
members, each of whom. What an experience that is tailored to them.
[00:10:39] And each of whom have very different needs on any given day for any given
interacDon with them, but with their building society. And I think the way in which you then
aiempt to make that contextual and the best experience it can be for a given member on a
given day is through a real focus on what we could w what, in our organizaDon, we call
[00:11:00] service and experience design.
[00:11:01] So we have. Um, yeah, sDll a relaDvely small part of our organizaDon, but growing
group of colleagues who are absolutely laser focused on what does this feel like? Not that
there can be a one best way, but rather that through research and engagement and actually
talking with our members, we have access to them in brunch and in contact center and
through the digital channels, understanding.
[00:11:25] What are the ways in which we can delight our members and the subs and
experience design capability then seeks to work directly with our digital product designers,
and also engages out with our brunch network and contact center network to try and reflect
services and experiences that we offer that matched the needs of the members with the
research we do.
[00:11:44] And we do try and then over into this ways of working space, we do try and make
sure we reflect an ongoing experimental approach to conDnuous improvement. So always
seeking to improve the experience we offer our members mindful of the innovaDon that,
that, that modern technologies [00:12:00] brings us, but sDll ulDmately kind of connect back
to that, that simple ethic of care and service, um, and making it sort of coherent and
respecjul with how naDonwide wants to engage and serve members.
[00:12:12] I'll just pick up on a word, respecjul in this, go back to, um, um, something which
I know came out when we spoke previously around. You know, I'm obviously personally
interested in the delivery of good customer experiences. And invariably that means always 
discussing discussions around, you know, digital design on all, I suppose, the elements that a
customer would interact with.
[00:12:34] But the reality is as conducDvity iceberg, and there's so much more behind the
scenes that you have in place to drive that. And you menDoned respecjul, and that kind of
goes back to the reality that it's people who deliver on the. On the, on your business's
promise to customers. And I'm curious to understand what role do you see company culture
play in and how [00:13:00] do you engineer your company culture?
[00:13:02] So it's, it's I suppose, geared towards delivery, you know, as good experience for
your members as possible. To me, it's right at the heart of the work that I'm doing. If I think
you touched on this before, actually you referenced oZen there are sort of funcDonal silos
within an organizaDon. Each of whom do reflect on the impact they have on, on customer or
member.
[00:13:26] Um, but quite oZen done in a siloed way. And I think it was that sort of local
opDmizaDon of experience can result in a posiDve connecDon ulDmately for your members.
There's a danger that actually, yeah. The experience you reflect is a reflecDon of the
organizaDonal structure. So you deal with a servicing department or you deal with the
website where you do it.
[00:13:47] Well, that's not the intent. The intent is to be able to meet the member's need at
the point of need. In the simplest most, again, reflecDve of the members ask rather than of
our [00:14:00] organizaDonal structure and the technique we are using at the moment, pivot
of the organizaDons, structures, processes, and focus away from funcDonal siloed
opDmizaDon through to what for us is member focus.
[00:14:15] So we have launched what we would call our member missions and the three.
The missions we orient around now relate to moments that maier hassle-free money and
homes and dreams, and the enDre organizaDon then is shiZing its focus to reflect those
missions and to prioriDze and align. Work in service of meeDng the member needs within
those missions.
[00:14:45] And that for me is a beauDful, beauDful way in which colleagues can serve the
member, whether they be a security engineer all the way through to a risk professional,
through to a strategist or a content designer, and anywhere in between [00:15:00] is in
seeing that golden thread, the alignment of the work they do day to day and teams that they
operate in with something that ulDmately is a member need or a member experience.
[00:15:09] And that 90 degree orientaDon away from sort of funcDonal, siloed structure
through to something that reflects members needs and missions to meet those members
needs. Yeah, it's a hard liZ journey and there's a lot of wiring, mental wiring process, wiring
governance wiring that needs recalibraDon.
[00:15:27] But ulDmately the net result is something that the enDre organizaDon shiZs to be
in service of member and everything colleagues do is. Explicitly there to meet the needs of
members and missions we serve. Aye. Aye. Aye. I suppose I sDll see organizaDonal structures
reflected in the, um, services that are provided the clients. 
[00:15:51] It's amazing how oZen an internal org chart is reflected in the czar or the IAA with
informaDon architecture, structure of a website, [00:16:00] and you can kind of overlay it
onto, you know, the internal org chart and. You kind of get it, but obviously from the
customer's point of view, they, you know, it's just mind boggling, but, uh, okay.
[00:16:12] Um, you've got me interested now around is really interested in building, um,
teams around folks in our missions, which aligned with being a member challenges. And I
suppose my quesDon is how does those teams look like? Because are they cross-funcDonal
teams? Because again, again, this is your, perhaps I'm slightly jaded.
[00:16:32] I sDll see, um, And a colleague of mine shared a really funny video around, you
know, uh, marketers, miss not understanding, you know, the beierment and all the
challenges over there. And I'm just part of that has always been the, the split between, I
suppose, certain teams and the teams actually have to engineer will do the stuff.
[00:16:53] And there's not understanding the challenges that each face. And I'm just curious
to know when you have your other, if you call them pods, [00:17:00] but you know, I suppose
what type of roles would make go into these type of, um, you know, teams just to make sure,
I suppose everyone kind of understands the challenges, their internal colleagues face,
because at the end of the day, you want to build something for your clients, but you need
everyone on the same page because it's not going to ask you the quesDons around this.
[00:17:19] It's just not easy to do stuff within the context of large legacy bank. So for us,
100% a journey. Yeah, I'm not saying for even a second that we were solved at all. What I
would observe is that if we reflect on, um, you know, uh, a bunch of books and learnings out
there around the pivot from project to product, that creaDon of empowered autonomous,
small cross-funcDonal teams, if you observe the kind of innovaDve power and, and, and the
experimentaDon that small.
[00:17:52] Cross-funcDonal mulDdisciplinary teams can demonstrate in solving organizaDonal
problems where the outcome is clear and they're [00:18:00] empowered to tackle that is the
journey we're on. And we've seen some brilliant progress in this space. I think if I look back
in Dme, I'd reflect it as the sort of digital translaDon that sort of capital D Kathy digital
translaDon.
[00:18:12] We went out of our way in 2018 19 to create what for us, where our hubs and in
those hubs we brought together. All the colleagues required to form, uh, what, what for us at
that Dme were member journey teams. And those journey teams went out of their way to
re-engineer our core member facing journeys, bringing together folks who set policy and
who own processes and controls.
[00:18:39] Um, and bringing them directly alongside our soZware engineers ulDmately was
all cloud and plajorm engineers and created a, an environment which actually demonstrates
it internally. It's a social proof that we could have these small and power core central teams.
So if I look at our journey in 2018, 19, and where those teams are now, they are [00:19:00]
incredible.
[00:19:00] They operate at a real sort of. A real pace, but a sort of sustainable pace. They
iterate the journeys that they've created in a way that reflects organizaDonal priority and
directly your organizaDon's strategic mission priority. Um, for example, last year, when we 
saw the payments holidays as a sort of immediate response to members, mortgage members
needing to make sure that they could meet.
[00:19:24] Sort of needs to hit payment, deadlines and dates. Those digital teams were able
to turn around fully integrated API enabled end to end journeys within five days. And that's
no accident that is as a result of a huge amount of effort over sort of two or three years to
make sure cross-funcDonal teams could act on accordance with organizaDonal prioriDes that
emerged and changed their focus in delivering.
[00:19:47] Incredible customer experience almost. They're respecjul with that. Then in the
creaDon of a brand new mortgage product, that's in the crush of the payment. Holiday in
service of meeDng the impact of members who've been impacted by COVID. And that's
[00:20:00] what you're now taking those lessons from digital transformaDon and applying
those across the organizaDon.
[00:20:05] As we shiZ probably more and more of the organizaDon from what the cost is
from project centric, ways of working towards product centric, ways of working, we take
those lessons from digital and we help, um, sort of imbue them across the wide society. It's
interesDng that you menDoned, um, how you get up to.
[00:20:23] Turn around quick change at the beginning of the pandemic. And I think a
recurring theme on this podcast is always the challenge within the big Fs incumbents to get
stuff done is it's much easier to seile for the status quo because it's, it's usually not to push
against the grain and just, just go with the flow.
[00:20:43] And I suppose my quesDon is a, how do you approach a challenge of, I suppose,
gemng stuff done within the big bank, but also more to the point. There's so much you could
do, because I think big banks are unfairly, unfairly compared with [00:21:00] fintechs. And I
think you made a good point when I spoke to you previously that fintechs, uh, like the likes
of Starling and Monzo have a different ministraDve structure that they're governed by that in
many respects, they don't have the.
[00:21:13] Uh, I'll say shackles, uh, you know, a big business like naDonwide has therefore
one sense. It's easy for them to do stuff. Also they've got nest products, but suppose that's a
disDll my quesDon. How do you define where you want to go? And then how the approach,
the challenge of gemng towards that desDnaDon?
[00:21:34] When, within the context of a bank, you have different products, different
customers. You've got. Dozens of different systems, powering everything. Um, you have
legacy systems, there's new technology you want to integrate, and you got to figure out how
to integrate it with what you have already in place. And just thinking about it begins to make
you sweat.
[00:21:53] So how do you approach to finding where you want to get to and real challenge
that you know, most of the stuff that's going to [00:22:00] happen, it doesn't really show
value to the business for quite some Dme. I think, um, one of the things I've observed over
this off. Two to three years is if the growth in our organizaDon, in what we call the product
owner capability, and almost that skillset required to conDnually reprioriDze to understand,
appreciate leveraging data and real input from members and feedback from business results
to prioriDze where efforts go both to improve the services we offer today, as well as to then. 
[00:22:37] Create and innovate for the future. And that product owner role is so important
given to your point, you know, that there are tens and tens of, of someDmes even, you know,
fully conflicDng demands of where you can apply sort of scarce resource in sense of you in
improving your soZware or, or [00:23:00] simplifying processes or, um, improving the
bronch.
[00:23:05] Uh, so that, that. Product and a capability that, that therefore influences is
objecDve and data raDonal is, is clear on vision, but not hell bent on control. And if you ally a
product owner capability with a real focus on improving kind of a lean cadence, it's not
necessarily about speed. It's about consistency.
[00:23:31] Um, you know, lean cadence of, of conDnuous flow of value to team members,
meeDng those product Turners prioriDze needs, or prioriDze, um, ideas of, of outcomes
where we're seeking to change. I think it's the therefore the combinaDon of product owner
capability and these incremental lean agile product teams that I have found to be able to
navigate.
[00:23:57] That absolute morass of [00:24:00] priority calls, regulaDon, operaDonal
resilience, tech infrastructure, uh, horizon three innovaDon, um, balancing a porjolio of, of,
of value to member requires both the lean cadence and incredible skills and prioriDzaDon
and data. I wanted to dig a liile bit deeper into, I suppose, a day-to-day.
[00:24:23] Work in life of the, um, I suppose your colleagues within these, um, mission pots.
Um, and I know we just, we briefly touched upon, you know, there's so much you could be
doing, and I think it's an amazing way to structure your teams into, you know, missions and
aligned with, you know, members day-to-day challenges, but sDll even within that.
[00:24:46] Even that that provides loads of clarity. I imagine those teams are going to come
up with dozens of different ideas and things that they want to do. Uh, and I suppose, how do
you prioriDze we'll siZ? Which ones should be, [00:25:00] um, should be focused on which
ones you believe that, uh, provide the most value to members?
[00:25:05] How, cause again, You know, even as a business, as big as naDonwide sDll has only
a finite amount of resources they can allocate to teams. So there's sDll an element of picking.
What's going to provide the best value for the business and for, for members. And how do
you, how do you pick that? The way where the way we're sort of learning and evolving our
way through this, this is a hundred percent.
[00:25:27] One of these sort of Tesla and adapted. Um, each of our three missions is then
further decomposed into what we would call a member need stream. Or for those who do
reading in this, they're essenDally our value streams and value streams then become, or
Mebane needs streams. In our context, become the home for long lived mulDdisciplinary or
cross-funcDonal teams where what we would class as our member needs stream lead is
effecDvely a product owner and the member needs team lead [00:26:00] prioriDzes at a
macro level sort of mulD-year outcomes.
[00:26:04] And then your outcomes. That have been prioriDzed by mission leadership overall
in line with organizaDonal strategy in line with organizaDonal purpose. And the trick actually
is in trying to strike the balance between semng compelling mulD-year. View is sort of what
John Doerr would call big, hairy, audacious goals. 
[00:26:25] So semng these audacious mulD-year goals and then actually empowering your
teams to set their own ongoing objecDves and key results in alignment with those audacious
goals. And so the trick for us over over this sort of most recent period and going forward is in
helping to set up that structure, behavior, culture processes, ulDmately that allow long-lived
teams to.
[00:26:51] Receive be energized by the empowered, by and contribute to mulD-year
audacious goals. And then, um, in a [00:27:00] boiom up way at the teams level set their
incremental quarterly objecDves and associated key results towards those. And to your point
around experimentaDon innovaDon, those objecDves and key results are in themselves
aspiraDonal.
[00:27:15] So the teams are semng out hypothesis. And objecDve. And the key result is a
team's opportunity to effecDvely experiment towards the audacious goal and the results of
each quarter's experimentaDon then informs both value to member value to business. As
well as helping to understand what that North star view that they just go is sDll unsent,
right?
[00:27:39] It could be tweaked. It could be, it could be even pushed out further. And then the
trick, I guess, across the missions is in making sure that that at a macro level, whilst each
mission is empowered and each mission member needs stream or value stream is itself
empowered and funded for non-live funding for long-lived teams to seek, to improve the
member journey and the member experience in their context.
[00:28:00] [00:27:59] At a strategic level across the society. This is a sense of needing to
balance the books. So what about if our hopes and dreams, um, mission funds and
opportunity to, to meet new horizon, two horizon three, um, lemonades that, that we hadn't
even appreciated in the previous planning cycle. So again, there's a trick in that.
[00:28:20] How do we ensure the best experience for our members of today and seek those
opportuniDes to experiment in the horizon? Two horizon three space. Towards what will
become the experiences we want to offer. Our members have to stand in the future. And
that, again, I'm not saying it's soul, but the ability to improve incrementally in a really
evoluDonary way within missions and member needs streams whilst also keeping a weather
eye on strategy and sort of strategic direcDon aligned to vision and purpose is something
that is.
[00:28:51] It's alchemy. It's not, it's not one single answer. It's something that you just going
to have to keep experimenDng with and looking at the results. That's true. [00:29:00]
FascinaDng. Now I would find also a quesDon around, um, employee moDvaDonal demoDvaDon
because it, my experience of in big business is so easy to get the moDvate that
you feel like nothing you do has any impact, but I think you've answered my quesDon already
because you touched upon the way you're linking, um, your colleagues.
[00:29:21] Day-to-day acDviDes with these big, hairy, audacious goals, which I use quite sDll
quite unusual for, for, for a big business. Is that like a relaDvely new, um, methodology
you've, uh, naDonwide have applied or so someone that's been in, in, I suppose, part of your
DNA, it's very much new to us within naDonwide. 
[00:29:41] And again, it's something that we are learning by doing. We are experimenDng
with it. It's not new. Yeah, I, I think I see the opportunity I have in this role in ways of working
to, to make sure that we are learning from many organizaDons out there. So this topic of
objecDves and key [00:30:00] results and big, hairy, audacious goals and, and, and
empowering teams to, to almost set social contracts where each quarter they are, um,
they're coming together in service of these audacious mulD-year goals.
[00:30:12] That's something that's been pracDced by Google. It's been pracDced by Intel and
there are books. BeauDful, again, beauDful books well-wriien and sort of very clear case
studies of how organizaDons and chariDes and governments and healthcare providers have
used some of these approaches to help them with collaboraDve goal semng, um, and dialing
up intrinsic moDvaDon through empowerment with alignment.
[00:30:40] So these are not new. But they are new to us. And so we are experimenDng,
exploring it and translaDng to our own unique context whilst respecDng all the input that we
can get from your, the access we have in this world of ours now, to so much insight and
informaDon, there are so many thought leaders out there who are prepared [00:31:00] to
share their own reflecDons and wisdom that, that we should seek to bring in.
[00:31:05] And, and, you know, as ever you can innovate by standing on the shoulders of
giants. I agree. Um, always my philosophy is always steal something from someone who's
been there and know that there's a lot smarter than you. So, you know, why, why start from
scratch? Um, I wanted, I mean, I actually seen a, you know, a bunch of your old LinkedIn
posts.
[00:31:24] I think you've referenced some books. I think I've added them to my Amazon
wishlist. So quite helpful. But in terms of like work, you know, methodologies to deliver
change, agile was one of those, which. Can Dp into being a buzzword that people just throw
out there about, you know, genuine understanding of, I suppose, how some of the key
tenants behind agile can work in the context of the business.
[00:31:47] In terms of that phrase, agile, what does it mean to you? And is that the approach
that you build within, um, I suppose is that the work in methodology sits around [00:32:00]
how your teams get stuff done. I can do it. Like it's, it's a very personal perspecDve, but I
think there's a set of words. Now that almost come with baggage they're overloaded, um,
capital D digital capital, a agile capital L lean, um, capital P product.
[00:32:18] And to my mind, agility, lowercase, a adverb describing. How teams conDnue to
drive innovaDon, experimentaDon, conDnuous improvement through agility, through a
scienDfic method that that takes, um, measurable experimentaDon that it's called and says,
okay, regularly, how do we inspect, adapt, run retrospecDves, learn from those
retrospecDves to, to, to think about the thing we could do next that would improve the
cadence to my mind where we're taking.
[00:32:53] Core tenets from the books of lean and agile and seeking to offer those to teams,
[00:33:00] to imbue the teams with agility. I certainly have no ability nor any inclinaDon to
tell teams across our society. What is the best way for them to achieve their goals? They are
the team's goals and the best place to idenDfy the right way to solve the goals of that team
have at that point is in the team and in trusDng the team. 
[00:33:21] And then ensuring that the team has access to content and support and guidance.
And also that, I guess if we mandate one thing, it is regular retrospecDon and acDon
adaptaDon. You're not seeking to tell them this is the way I guess the thing we're seeking to
do is to make sure that they respect that their way will evolve and that the improvement of
daily work is the thing that we are seeking rather than this is the one way to get things done.
[00:33:49] And that's hard because historically I think, you know, organizaDons, parDcularly
large scale change would have said the book of Prince two is the book to follow. And then
yeah, maybe. [00:34:00] The book of scrum is the book to follow or maybe scaled scrum or
safe is the book to follow. I don't think that's actually what we're seeking.
[00:34:07] So I think we're saying that there are many books out there and there are many
learnings and actually each unique team in its own unique context is well served to be
respecjul and aware of all the things that have come before. But their own unique context
and their own evoluDon over Dme requires humility and agility, conDnuous improvement,
rather than a defined best path that somehow suits all contexts, all teams, all tech stacks.
[00:34:32] I just don't sense that that could be true. Yeah. I agree. It's quite refreshing.
Actually. It's quite rare to hear. I mean, typically it's not from the boiom up, it's more, you
know, command control type process where it's, you know, uh, Uh, edicts are issued from
down on top and teams and have to scramble to figure out how to enact the, but I do like
the idea of end of the day.
[00:34:56] It's not the methodology it's you need to, you [00:35:00] need to define what it is
you want to do, or you want to do you want to define it? Something that's achievable and
not this massive business case that's been wriien from up on high with no context of, you
know, if it's even achievable and that in itself, the moralizing as teams, because nothing
worse than.
[00:35:16] Being asked to do something, which, you know, can't be cheap because they just
not close enough to even the product or the service, or even the underlying technology that
needs to power it. So I found that quite interesDng, which kind of goes on to another
quesDon, which I know. So you've been at naDonwide for a number of years and, you know,
you menDoned worth crossing, you had different roles there, and I know you've worked on
plajorms and technologies and it's difficult to talk about.
[00:35:44] Achieving anything within the context of notch insDtuDon, without menDoning
the complexity of even ignoring core banking systems, even something like, you know,
different markeDng technology tools that you have in your stack. [00:36:00] Um, I always
liked banks because they have kind of everything go in, which is great because each of those
tools has lots of untapped capability.
[00:36:10] But invariably, you're not gonna use all of that capability for various reasons. And
it's got even more capability when you kind of combine, you know, one to two to three
systems. My quesDon I suppose, is invariably is gonna be, you're going to have a complex,
your markeDng technology stack. You're going to have loads of things.
[00:36:28] And one of the, I think one of the great examples from, you know, I think
technology companies, or even from startups who can engineer from the ground up is
simplicity eight core. And I suppose, how do you approach the fact that 
[00:36:45] delivery of a good customer experience is powered by disparate markeDng
technology stack. And that in itself requires more for a lot of faults of what could each
plajorm do, what data is held by which plajorm where, how does it [00:37:00] interact with
each other? Has it passed data between each system and that in itself is.
[00:37:06] An awful lot of work. And then it requires an awful lot of thinking. And that's not
even thinking about everything else you have to worry about in terms of what you do. It's
just one strand, but it just happens to be extremely complex strap. So my, my take on this
one, um, again, it's a bit of a mixture of, uh, sort of theories and pracDce.
[00:37:24] Um, what I'd have is that within our society, We have a highly capable
architecture and engineering in-house organizaDonal group roadmaps and alignment and
horizon scanning is something that we pride ourselves on and we run an internal tech radars
and example that, that, that helps teams understand, um, you know, what's hot.
[00:37:50] What's not what to explore. I think culturally. There's a fascinaDng balance then
between providing roadmaps and guidance on one sort of [00:38:00] future enterprise
architecture and architecture of the enterprise as well, by which I mean operaDng level as
much as sort of technology roadmaps, but also affording opportunity for experimentaDon
and evoluDon, because the greatest respect, even the most capable architect cannot be in all
contexts at all points in Dme and, and, and respect the prioriDes as.
[00:38:20] They unfold for them to meet those needs. So there's a real balance in there
between evoluDonary architecture in the context of teams evolving the products. And
therefore the technology and actually the technology that underpins that technology. So if
we think about plajorms, for example, and we go across the sort of manual paDent Mackey
skeleton thinks about minimum Bible plajorms or saDsfiable plajorms, how do you ensure
that teams can focus on improving experience?
[00:38:50] In line with quarter on quarter and entry yearly, um, needs of members whilst
also reflecDng this desire for simplicity and commonality where possible. [00:39:00] And
that's a real balance, you know, you're looking to empower teams to experiment, evolve,
create whilst also trying to ensure there's degrees of consolidaDon simplificaDon.
[00:39:09] So you don't end up with a real, you know, a real design, your massive of layers of
stack. And again, I think that's one that we will conDnue to focus on. It's the balance
between empowering teams to experiment and innovate in their context whilst also wanDng
to have long, longer term roadmaps for convergence that help direcDonally bring teams back
towards a sort of common thread.
[00:39:34] So we built, for example, digital plajorms that. Um, originally based on AWS and
a Coobernem's based approach for our infrastructure, we augment those with a set of
pipelines at about point reflects the needs of the customer journeys that we're consuming
them. No, no. The Dme we've augmented those with more dev sec ops capability.
[00:39:54] And then over Dme again, we've made sure that we actually started to integrate
controlled stories into our pipelines. [00:40:00] We started to emerge and ever more
integrated sort of conference in JIRA. Um, capability that allows teams to feel much more
confident that the stories that, uh, that there, or issues or Dckets closed out, meet the needs, 
almost enabling bureaucracy, meet, meet the needs of the organizaDons controls at the
point at which we deploy.
[00:40:21] And actually if you treat those sort of plajorms and plajorm tools and
capabiliDes as if they themselves are products and they serve internal teams, colleagues,
teams. So in talking about, um, Yeah, your plajorms and your streamline teams. So when we
talk about our member needs streams, do our member needs streams consume great
plajorms and all those plajorms for them products that they consume and have the
opportunity to prioriDze themselves with great product owners for these underpinning
plajorms.
[00:40:50] So, yeah, emergent, um, definitely an area of focus and, um, ongoing
experimentaDon for us in growth. But that ability to both experiment in the near [00:41:00]
term whilst also illicit convergence and roadmaps in the medium term is a skill. I, to be
honest, I've never heard the phrase minimum viable plajorm for something which can
actually thinking actually around, um, I suppose the adopDon of, of markeDng technology.
[00:41:14] It was kind of leads me on to my final quesDon. And, um, I know I menDoned this
before the interview on pre-call, uh, I spoied something you posted on LinkedIn around the
role of tesDng and experimentaDon, and that kind of led to, um, The ideal and MVP minimal
viable product. And that in my experience, talking to, um, senior people in large insurers or
banks that, um, really isn't a definiDon of an MVP.
[00:41:42] The MVP is, you know, everything, which. At the end of the day, any minimum for
any product that you're looking to release into the world is based on a hypothesis that even
if it is insight, lab is sDll an idea. It could be proved wrong. And any way to [00:42:00] relearn
is to get your customer members interacDng with this and collecDng your feedback.
[00:42:05] So do you have a definiDon of what. Is the minimum that needs to go into
something before it can be launched into the world and have customers, you know, use it.
Because when I speak to people, they think an MVP implies a bunch of bucks because I think
they they've looked at technology companies releasing.
[00:42:23] Uh, things like Gmail in, you know, in Asia for years and has, has bugs and going
well. No, I don't think that's what people mean by him. VP is just, you know, defining what is
it. We want to get this out as quickly as humanly possible, but sDll have a high level of
funcDonality that live is value to the customer, but we want to collect real Dme feedback.
[00:42:44] So I suppose, how do you balance the two compeDng, um, challenges? So the, the
plajorm space is correct. My language says finished fiber plajorm. And again, it is, it is sDll
based on the concept of minimum. So what is the finished Bible [00:43:00] plajorm? And
then what's the minimum Bible compliance or minimum Bible controls at a point in a
product's life cycle.
[00:43:08] So if you are seeking to experiment something, what are those things that must
be true? You must make sure that. Member's data is secure. You must make sure that you'd
hear to the regulatory needs of a parDcular journey, but yet those guard rails or controls or
compliance needs, or your iniDal fetal launch for a smaller number of members who
volunteered, who are themselves, what I would class as early adopters, who are acDvely
seeking to be there to experiment with our society. 
[00:43:41] There is a difference between something that is general availability for 15 million
members. And something that is appropriate to test, learn and adapt. And I think, again, in
being really open with your member base or your customer base in sort of sharing
transparently, these are [00:44:00] areas we're experimenDng with.
[00:44:01] And in these areas, we guarantee that we will not. Breach. Yeah. The core
elements of why you trust your banking insDtuDon or in our case, the building society, but
treat your customers or members with respect and in an adult way that says for us to
conDnue to experiment evolve, we are culturally actually trying to shiZ away from internally,
the highest person, postpaid person's opinion towards we want to experiment in the open
with our members using member's feedback to enable us to improve the services we offer.
[00:44:33] So you have to be. Able to say you trust us. And we will make sure that the
minimums required on that. But actually we are almost pumng something out there for early
adopters and innovators in our member segments to help us, you know, if, if you can use
something that is itself, an experiment, please do so safely provide the feedback and the
contract lower case C you a contract in, in inverted commas.
[00:44:59] There is [00:45:00] that we will improve the service or the proposiDon. Based on
the feedback you provide that's, uh, that doesn't work for all members that doesn't work for
all customers. Some customers only wants to engage at the point of which something is
done done to the extent, to which they don't have to worry about, you know, feather
emergence or providing feedback.
[00:45:18] But for some members, actually the opportunity to be an early adopter and, and
the opportunity to engage in the innovaDon process as a customer or member. It's actually a,
quite a compelling part of the proposiDon. If we think back to where Monzo launched and
people actually went for the first thousand cards, they went and picked them up in person,
but that's sort of the ability to be there at the outset and to be able to shape a proposiDon
fits very well for some customers or members that doesn't fit for all customers or members.
[00:45:47] So be respecjul of the needs of, of those who use your services. And if you want
to experiment in the open, the open about. Here's what you can trust us with, and here's
what we need from you in response. That's sDll, again, [00:46:00] very emergent, you know,
very, very sort of evoluDonary within a society. But I think if the way in which the sort of
systemic and important organizaDons can innovate in the open transparency with customers
and members, Richard, thank you very much.
[00:46:15] Um, I fascinated by today's session, really enjoyed today's interview. So thank you
very much for, for joining me today and being. Super open and super honest with how
you're, how you and your colleagues are currently working at naDonwide. Really
interesDng. .