When the Leader Is the Problem: The Courage to Change.

When was the last time you realized that you—not your team—were part of the leadership problem?

That realization can be painful, but it can also begin your most important growth.

In this episode, Dr. Lisa DeVore, United States Air Force veteran and author of Pawprints on Leadership, shares how she confronted a low-empathy leadership moment and chose to grow from it.

We discuss how authoritarian leadership models can cause us to prioritize rules and results over people, why reflection and apology matter, and how emotional intelligence and active listening make us better leaders.

Lisa also explores the importance of followership and the lessons she learned from Bailey, her service dog—including the powerful truth that sometimes the person leading us has no title or words, just greater awareness.

Subscribe to Unarmored Talk, share this episode with someone who leads others, and leave a review to help more listeners discover the show.

Stay unarmored, stay authentic, and stay mentally fit. God bless.

Connect with Dr. Lisa DeVore

Book — Pawprints on Leadership: [https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B0G2L2VZ89?ref_=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_SAMWGJ2YXEZ7DBNCB1PP&bestFormat=true]

LinkedIn: [Dr. Lisa DeVore, PMP, SSM | LinkedIn]

Chapters

00:00 — Welcome and Guest Introduction
02:49 — Lisa’s Air Force-to-Space Force Path
04:21 — Owning a Low-Empathy Leadership Moment
07:15 — How Authoritarian Models Shaped Her
08:41 — Why a Trusted Teammate Stayed
12:51 — Followership as a Leadership Skill
16:32 — Letting Bailey Lead When It Matters
18:29 — Pause, Observe, and Give Yourself Grace
20:01 — Where to Find Lisa and Final Sendoff

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Mario P. Fields 0:08

Welcome to Unarmor Talk, where we remove the armor, have real conversations, and strengthen how we think and respond in live. Today's guest, everyone, is Dr. Lisa N4. I like that for D4. United States Air Force Veteran. He's also the author of Paul Prince on Leadership. I have the book right here. And slogan, if you will, is what my service dog Bailey taught me about leadership. If you can see it, you guys get a copy of it. It is it is a powerful, and I'm not just saying that. I read it. It's uh very, very powerful. We're gonna talk about a couple things in there today. Hopefully, you learned something. And uh again, we're gonna explore some uh lessons uh that Bailey, uh her service dog of 18 years, uh, taught her, but and more. And then we're gonna also talk about uh the journey of self-reflecting, reflecting back on your opportunities and realizing some things that uh maybe you could have done better. Everyone, welcome. Help me welcome if you're watching. Of course, you won't you won't be able to clap. I don't even know why I'm doing this, but help me welcome Dr. DeVore. Lisa, how are you doing?

Dr. Lisa N. DeVore 1:28

I am doing well. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. We finally were able to coordinate our schedules.

Mario P. Fields 1:35

Yeah, we've been trying this since what uh 1768?

Dr. Lisa N. DeVore 1:40

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's tough. I'm over here in Korea and uh our time zones are quite different. I think of maybe 14 hours ahead or 12. I don't know. You guys do time change. We don't do time change over here.

Mario P. Fields 1:56

Yeah, right. That uh well, I appreciate what time is it right now there?

Dr. Lisa N. DeVore 2:01

Uh it's almost midnight.

Mario P. Fields 2:03

Oh my goodness.

Dr. Lisa N. DeVore 2:05

I set my clock and I was stressed out about it, thinking, oh my gosh, I'm gonna I'm gonna oversleep, I'm gonna miss it.

Mario P. Fields 2:12

Well, if that's indicative of how uh you respect me in the show, I truly appreciate it. I think you're the first guest I've ever had, international or even domestic, that said, no, Maury, I want to come on the show close to midnight my time. I love it. Wow, thank you. Well, and everyone, thank you again. If you're a first-time listener or viewer, you know, welcome to An Armor Talk. It and if you've been with me since 2020, um, again, I from the bottom of my heart, I love you guys and thank you for your continued support and loyalty.

Lisa’s Air Force To Space Force Path

Mario P. Fields 2:49

Lisa, can you just tell the listeners and viewers a little bit about who you are?

Dr. Lisa N. DeVore 2:54

Oh, you sure can. I am Lisa Devore. I am an Air Force vet. Um, I got out in 2001, so I'm a older Air Force vet, if you will. Um, I spent time all over the world doing uh computer systems switching and crypto maintenance and all that kind of boring stuff. Um I got out of the Air Force in 2001. I did some time in the reserves until 2007, and I was working for AeroJet later in Northrop Grumman. So after my military career, I was hired as a government contractor. So I've been, you know, kind of sticking around with supporting the military um since I got out so many decades ago. And um, you know, I've just kind of been going to school as I can squeeze it into my normal life. And uh right now I'm actually in Korea, as I mentioned a little while ago. I've been here almost, I'm working on 13 years, uh, and I'm working with the Space Force now. So I've kind of jumped ship. It was Air Force, so they kind of forced the Space Force upon me, but um nonetheless, I'm supporting them the best I can.

Mario P. Fields 4:08

You know, that's that's cool. And and the beauty of it is, you know, your lifetime commitment to service in South Korea to Space Force um is commendable. But let's let's jump right into it.

Owning A Low Empathy Leadership Moment

Mario P. Fields 4:21

Uh I'm reading your your book. I read your book, of course. I'm reading your book. I read your book, and there's one thing that stood stood out to me of many things when you talked about a situation where you realized that you were leading with not much empathy, sympathy. Let's talk about that. How was that when you reflected on that? Help us out.

Dr. Lisa N. DeVore 4:49

Man, that was a struggle. I am not gonna lie. Um, and it and even though I've talked about it and I learned from that experience, um, you know, that happened in 2000 when I was deployed. Um, and to this day, I still wonder if, you know, I wish I could go back and tell some of the people that I treated the way I treated. I'm sorry. I feel, you know, I mean, it is what it is, right? You can't go back in time, but maybe one day they'll read my book and and you know, realize, hey, you taught me something um despite how terrible I was to you. So um the reflection was difficult but necessary. And um, you know, I kind of take it as I always want to learn, I always want to grow. And even in the difficult times when I know I've just made the wrong mistake, and I still do it. I mean, all the time I'm constantly trying to reflect every day, how do I handle this? Why did I do it that way? Um, and I've I've learned, if nothing else, hey, go back and apologize. Um, matter of fact, I've apologized to some of my guys here, and I work with a bunch of men and they're like, uh, we don't care about all that. But you know, I still think they appreciate it. You know, it's the hardcore mentality. But um, yeah, reflecting on when you mess up is not fun.

Mario P. Fields 6:21

Yeah, you know, and you know, Lisa, you're like, I'm apologizing for me. I need some closure. Right? Yeah. I don't care if you don't like it or not. I need closure and clarity, my friend. Um right, yeah. And you mentioned that that you wanted to continue to grow and develop, and in order to do that, you had to do the uncomfortable. And listeners and viewers, I hope you understand that because that's a choice. You you didn't have to go, you don't have to go, I want to continue to develop and grow, but I got to unpack the the past, and it's gonna be painful. What do you think caused that disconnect during that time? Was it your lack of um understanding, your listening skills, maybe not understanding, active listening compared to listening, struggling with feedback? What's your thoughts?

How Authoritarian Models Shaped Her

Dr. Lisa N. DeVore 7:15

I think it's all of the above. Um, I mean, my household was very strict. Um, it was kind of like an authoritarian household. Um, and then you know, the military, it's very authoritarian. So I think that, you know, throughout my life, that was really the only example of leadership that I had. Um, and you've seen you see how the whole um uh leadership theme has changed over the last few decades. And when you only have an authoritarian kind of uh leadership role that you can look at, it makes it difficult to expand and think of anything else. That's the only thing you know. And at the time I wasn't, you know, doing any personal uh leadership training other than you know, airman leadership school, uh, which I have I should have put some of that in my book too, because there were some things I could have learned there as well. Um, yeah. So I think it's just what I had to, you know, as my role models when I was growing up and you know, joined the military straight out. I mean, when I say straight out of graduation, I mean like three weeks, and I was I was a basic. So um I didn't really have time to, you know, learn any any other ways to do anything. And so the way I handled it was all I knew.

Why A Trusted Teammate Stayed

Mario P. Fields 8:41

And you know, why do why do you believe the second in charge, your right-hand metaphoric man in combat, as you if y'all y'all gotta read the book, that's why I'm not gonna give you all the details. I'm gonna read it. I'm gonna give you a little bit of, you know, just open up the refrigerator. You can see a little lumpia in there, but we ain't we haven't fried that lumpia yet. So you just can get a little talk. You know, my wife's half filipino, so I'm gonna reference some lumpia here. But what what what do you think caused your right hand man not to undermine you, not to give up on you, even though you were so rigid and you you were just you weren't listening. Well, you listen, you just like whatever.

Dr. Lisa N. DeVore 9:22

Why do you think he didn't get it? He was I don't know. He was such a good person. Sandman is what they called him. Um he was very, you know, and he was just as young as I was. So, you know, I I can blame maturity, but he um he was very he was much more religious than I was at the time. So I'm I'm wondering, or I'm thinking that he had some godly intervention that maybe I was just quiet I had quieted uh for a while. Um, I wish I could answer that question, but I don't know because if I had been in his situation, I would have not behaved or handled it that way. He was just such a good person. And you know, he would talk to me after the fact and say, hey, we need to do this or we should do that. And you know, things that when I, you know, I mentioned in there about the air conditioner, like that should have been something obvious. Just give them the the truck with the air conditioner, you know. It didn't even cross my mind, but that was just the kind of person he was, or is he still around, he's not dead, so let's say he is the the power of faith.

Mario P. Fields 10:33

It it and as I I have uh Christian beliefs. I I study the Bible. The Bible is my roadmap to life, it has always been, and uh the the ability to go go in a room and go, dear God, give me the strength.

Dr. Lisa N. DeVore 10:49

Yes, he probably said that every day, too.

Mario P. Fields 10:56

Help me with my emotions, name my lips.

Dr. Lisa N. DeVore 11:04

Yes, I could have done that a few times as well.

Mario P. Fields 11:08

Oh my god. I had to, I had to fight my boss on giving somebody else some AC, and it's 130 degrees. Wow. And and I'm just so I I am so humbled by your ability to laugh and to to remove your armor to help other people. I believe in my whole heart my heart, globally, there are folks right now that are managing humans, help parents, it could be anybody, and don't realize they're the problem.

Dr. Lisa N. DeVore 11:43

Yep. And I have these conversations with myself now, constantly reflecting, and it's just like, man, now I gotta go apologize and crap, you know.

Mario P. Fields 11:56

But at least that takes courage. Yes, that takes courage. That's why it's commendable because it takes courage to self-reflect and to go, okay, I was the problem. High IQ, low EQ, you know what I mean? Like, oh, I was very intelligent in that situation, but I did not consider the complexities of uh leading humans. Which which leads me to the next kind of uh discussion point. Complexities. In your book, you highlight how complex uh leading uh people really is. There's not a right uh answer. This is the way you do it in 500 fortune companies or in the armed forces. This is the market, you ever see those books, this is it.

Dr. Lisa N. DeVore 12:49

Yes.

Followership As A Leadership Skill

Mario P. Fields 12:51

No, you're not here. Oh no, so that the one thing I want to talk about is you mentioned followership.

Dr. Lisa N. DeVore 13:00

Yes, you know what's funny. When I first started my doctoral program, um one of my professors said, you know, there's not enough um information on followership, and followership is so critical in leadership. And so she's the reason that I kind of pulled in followership into this book because I I did realize the importance of it. Um and in the book, I talk about, you know, my service dog Bailey, how he leads me out of certain situations, um, and I follow him, but then there's times where I have to rein in the leash and and I'm the leader and he's the follower. So it's a give and take relationship. And it's I I think I might might have called it yin and yang. It's two sides of the same coin kind of thing. Um and I also was talking about, you know, my kids, and even though they're so much younger than me, um there's a time when they can leave me despite my you know wisdom of age. You know, I can learn things from the non-complexity, if you will, of the way a child thinks. So leadership and followership really do go hand in hand, and you have to be able to kind of allow that to kind of merge back and forth.

Mario P. Fields 14:35

He's gonna hate me for this. Dr. Jerry Washington just talked about this years ago. He's done deep study, and then here you go writing a book about you two are just amazing. I'm about to get off this podcast and go put on some uh doctoral level stakes on the uh the flat top there. That's okay.

Dr. Lisa N. DeVore 14:56

I'll be there in about 14 hours.

Mario P. Fields 14:58

I gotcha. I'll pick you up at the airport and RDU. But but that's powerful how you realize that because one, like you just said, you have to allow it to happen. You're the parent or you're the teacher or you're the the supervisor, whatever position you're in, you you have to create the environment, and and also the word I'm gonna use it's in your book, where they trust you where they're where that person or people are comfortable actually leading you for a millisecond or minutes. And it can read you mentioned it, it can switch roles back and forth rapidly, as far as a spark plug, some fueled air.

Dr. Lisa N. DeVore 15:39

Yep, you're absolutely right.

Mario P. Fields 15:41

When you realize that, w how much did you start to learn from people that you were leading?

Dr. Lisa N. DeVore 15:48

Man, yeah, it's it opened an another door to leadership dimensions, you know what I mean? It's almost like a different, completely different paradigm. It's just it's interesting, and you and sometimes you have to really make a point to recognize it. Um, and sometimes that's where the reflection comes in. You might not see it when it happens during the day because, like you said, it can be a millisecond, and then you're just going back and forth. But you know, if you take time to reflect every day, you can really appreciate it more. And you're like, ah, yeah, this I that happened today, and I need to do this, and what did I learn? And you know, it's just it's a uh a moment of growth every time you can capture it.

Letting Bailey Lead When It Matters

Mario P. Fields 16:32

You you know, and uh in line with your book with Bailey, um listening to you, you just have me self-reflect um in regards to uh sometimes you know the greatest leadership teacher they don't even hold a title. Sometimes Bailey, they don't even speak English or Korea or any language. And you just remind me of a dog can bark. You can be walking the dog. And I read in in in some of your books, and a dog can bark because they see something you can't see. And if you pay attention and you stop walking the dog and allow the dog to let you to kind of highlight what they're barking out, at that moment, by definition, the dog is leading you. Yes. Yep. Wow, but you have to let it happen according to what you said, you have to be aware and let it happen.

Dr. Lisa N. DeVore 17:32

And that's where the leadership creativity comes into play and how you can um fine-tune it for what works for you. You know what I mean? Because everybody's gonna have a different leadership journey and everybody's gonna see things differently. Um, but if you sometimes you just have to sit in the quiet for a minute and or in the bark for a minute, if you will.

Mario P. Fields 17:55

Oh wow. The complexities, everyone, of leading, the power of self-reflecting. And it is uncomfortable to sit in your own mess. And I wouldn't even call it a mess, to be able to to to be comfortable with self-reflecting on your own journey when you dealt with people and to recognize things that may be emotionally painful for you, but to take those and learn from them to me is commendable, and Lisa, that's what you did, and that's what you continue to do. If

Pause, Observe, And Give Yourself Grace

Mario P. Fields 18:29

you were standing next to yourself in that 130-degree weather temperature, you had an out-of-body experience, and you can give yourself one piece of advice during that time, what would you give yourself? Looking back.

Dr. Lisa N. DeVore 18:50

I would tell myself to listen, observe. That's what I would tell myself. Is just wait. Even if it's for a five-minute pause or five-second pause, just wait, observe, see what's happening, get an understanding of the situation. And let me caveat that is when I did mess up because no matter what I tell myself, I'm hard-headed, so I would probably not listen. Um, when I did finally go back and reflect, I would tell myself to give myself grace.

Mario P. Fields 19:28

Powerful. I love it. You know, don't, don't, yeah, be give yourself grace. Don't don't just look at the mistakes and go, woe is me, and just stay there. Move forward with grace. That is good with grace. Well, everyone, I knew I could talk to you forever. I mean, you and I have been on well before the show. And you I just every time we talk, it's just I always learn something. But you guys know the deal. I don't want to be selfish. I want to because I can be when it comes to this show. But

Where To Find Lisa And Final Sendoff

Mario P. Fields 20:01

how can people find you and how can they get a copy of Paw Prints on Leadership?

Dr. Lisa N. DeVore 20:07

So Paw Prints on Leadership is um available on Amazon. Right now I only have a hard copy, but I'm considering doing maybe a um a soft copy or um a softback book. I just have not done that yet. Um, you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm also on Substack. I just started a Substack and I'm also on Instagram. Uh Dr. Lisa on Inst Instagram, Lisa DeVore on um on uh LinkedIn.

Mario P. Fields 20:37

Thank you so much. Well, and and and I'm maybe I'm showing my age, you know, you know what I mean. And I'm an AARP member, but I love hardback. So uh but Me too. Well, I do. I do. But so everyone, you know, again, please get a copy of the book if you can. Um follow Lisa. Uh she's she's just amazing on social media. And uh, you know, Lisa, thank you again for coming on the show. Thank you for staying up to midnight to to join me as a guest, and I truly appreciate you um and your family.

Dr. Lisa N. DeVore 21:09

Thank you for having me. I've always enjoyed talking to you every time we get together.

Mario P. Fields 21:13

Like like likewise. Well everyone again, uh we're just so thankful that Lisa was able to come on the show. But uh yeah, again, thank you for your continued support. And until next episode, please stay unarmored, stay authentic, and stay mentally fit. God bless you all. Thank you, Lisa.

Dr. Lisa N. DeVore 21:33

Thank you.