CXChronicles Podcast 218 with Dennis Armbruster, EVP at The Verde Group.mp4
Speaker 1 (00:00:06) - All right, guys, thanks so much for listening to another episode of the CX Chronicles podcast. Super excited for today's show. Dennis Armbruster is joining us. Dennis, say hello to the CX Nation, my friend.
Speaker 2 (00:00:16) - Hey, hello, everyone. Adrian, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (00:00:20) - 100%. So, Dennis, number one, I'm pumped just to kind of get into the way that you think about the wonderful world of customer experience and market research and understanding your customers, understanding your business and all the opportunities. I'd love for you to start off just by what are some of the stepping stones, man? Give us a couple of minutes around how did you get into this space and what were some of the early jobs or the early things that you were doing in your career that made you realize this was the type of space you wanted to work in?
Speaker 2 (00:00:49) - Yeah. No, I appreciate that. I grew up actually in a rural community in Wisconsin and worked in a bunch of different service industries. You know, my mom and dad literally worked in a what they call a supper club in Wisconsin. It's kind of old school dining experience for 40 some years and all of us kids kind of grew up in that environment as well. And so from an early stage was only about, you know, the experience because it was a pretty cool experience actually at this particular restaurant.
Speaker 2 (00:01:21) - But in my early stages of my career, Adrian, I actually kind of stumbled into quite frankly the whole loyalty industry, customer loyalty. And so early on was responsible for really helping to design and develop loyalty programs that you might find at, you know, retailers or businesses of all kinds. And the interesting thing to me and it kind of stuck in my craw early on was this notion of authentic loyalty.
Speaker 2 (00:01:55) - You know, I was busy designing points programs and discount programs and trying to find ways to basically help organizations spend their money, you know, more effectively to help drive, you know, transactional activity. But in the back of my mind, it was always, you know, are we really creating loyal customer relationships here?
Speaker 2 (00:02:17) - And time after time, I, you know, would hear from organizations that, you know, hey, if our operations are broken or if our product isn't performing like it needs to, no loyalty program is going to create the types of long-term, you know, relationships that are needed, right? So fast forward to, you know, probably the early to mid 2000s, the company I was working for acquired Peppers and Rogers. And I don't know if you know, Don Peppers, Martha Rogers, they wrote the book on one-to-one, you know, and it was around mass customization of the experience.
Speaker 2 (00:02:58) - And it began to really understand more fully what does it mean to create an experience that resonates with customers, et cetera, et cetera. And so, you know, in 2010, I actually met the Verde Group and kind of fell in love with the methodology and felt like it was an opportunity for me personally to make a bigger impact on the businesses that I was serving through the work that we do.
Speaker 1 (00:03:26) - I love it. So number one, Dennis, thank you for sharing that. It's funny, you are one of a small camp of guests that actually came up in like the restaurant or the hospitality type of space. So apparently many of us customer-focused business leaders, that's where we get our start when we're young, right? And I know for me, like I worked at a local country club. So I basically got to shoot the breeze with a bunch of the guys. I got to practice conversation. I got to listen. I got to hear what people were doing with their jobs, their work.
Speaker 1 (00:03:55) - And I know for me, that's definitely one of the things that got me, you know, later in life into this whole space, because I got used to kind of having conversations, learning, getting takeaways, and then kind of coming back to it. So I love that you grew up in the hospitality space.
Speaker 1 (00:04:09) - One thing I want to jump on before we dive into the four pillars, the customer loyalty, man, it's so funny because now more than ever, you know, I don't care if you're a small business or one of the biggest businesses on planet earth, like customer loyalty is just, if it's not already paramount.
Speaker 1 (00:04:25) - it has to be when you're growing your business, scaling your business, or when you're trying to ride some of the rough waters that we're dealing with in our current economic climate. So like, I love that you kind of found that space early. And honestly, like we were talking about the other day, Dennis, like you've been in the space for a long time. There's so many CX and customer service and customer analytics leaders out there that have not been in the space for 20 plus years or so.
Speaker 1 (00:04:51) - And they're not actually tuned into some of the ways that companies have been collecting, measuring, assessing, and getting ready to act upon feedback or the different loyalty measures, you know, in the past. So I love that you have that experience. Why don't you talk a little bit about the Verity Group? I'd love to kind of learn a little bit more about your role and some of the things you're doing at the Verity Group.
Speaker 2 (00:05:13) - Yeah, so the Verity Group, the way our founder Paula Courtney refers to it as we're a 20 plus year old startup, it kind of feels like that. We continue to be kind of, I wouldn't say fighting against the grain, but clearly have a very unique and different approach to understanding and measuring the customer experience. And so at its core, the Verity Group is a customer experience research and consulting firm. And we work with many global organizations across a pretty broad array of industry categories.
Speaker 2 (00:05:49) - We specialize though, I would say well over half of our business is in B2B, which kind of brings with it a whole set of complex dynamics when it comes to the customer experience. And our methodology, which we have patented revenue at risk, really kind of cuts through the noise of very complex customer dynamics. And that's quite frankly, what interested me when in the Verity Group, when I first met Paul in 2010, it was the unique methodology, which we can certainly chat more about.
Speaker 2 (00:06:25) - But yeah, that's really what we do is we help organizations identify very specific moments of truth that are creating the greatest economic risk to their business. And that's what we do for a living.
Speaker 1 (00:06:39) - So Dennis, I'd love to dive deeper on that. So you mentioned a couple of different things. Number one, just B2B can be very difficult, right? You have to actually work with the customer's team. You have to understand how the team dynamic works, how their tools work. You have to think about how they're actually managing their customer relationships. So there's a lot of complexity right there. The part that you mentioned though about revenue, I'd love for you to spend a few more minutes on that.
Speaker 1 (00:07:05) - How do you guys spend time with your clients at the Verity Group, identifying and mapping some of those areas that are either ripe for improvement or maybe there's friction, right? And then how do you tie that to the actual revenue? I'd love for you to dive a little bit deeper there.
Speaker 2 (00:07:21) - Yeah, so if you've read any of my posts or even the Verity Group messaging at large, we have a very strong point of view that there are some fundamental issues with the customer experience measurement industry in general. Because I think it was Forrester came out last year, I think they said 80% of executives view customer experience as a key priority, yet only 6% of those organizations feel like they're making progress, significant progress towards achieving a better customer experience, right?
Speaker 2 (00:08:01) - And if you ask customers themselves, I think there was another study conducted. If you ask customers, they're not feeling the love either, right? They're feeling like actually the experiences in many cases are getting worse, which begs the question, what's going on in the industry? I mean, organizations continue to invest a lot of money, Adrian, in measuring and managing the customer experience, but if executives aren't seeing improvement and customers aren't feeling the love, then something's not working, right?
Speaker 2 (00:08:32) - And so what we do, and it's really kind of more the philosophy behind the Verity methodology is really kind of get into the human factor here, right? Is that at the end of the day, organizations spend a ton of time measuring the attitudes of customers, right? NPS, customer satisfaction, et cetera, et cetera. And what we know to be true is that you cannot change anyone's attitude. All you can do is change the experiences that created the attitude in the first place, right?
Speaker 2 (00:09:10) - Basically attitudes are nothing more than a cognitive expression of their experiences. And the way that we approach it, which I think is unique, is we actually focus on what we call the dark side of the experiences. We look at friction points. And the reason we focus on friction is because, and this is, I think as humans, we're kind of hardwired, right, this way, is that if we experience friction, our behavior is much more predictable, right?
Speaker 2 (00:09:39) - Let's go back to the restaurant example, Adrian, we were talking about back in the day when I was working at the supper club, if a customer came in and they had a horrible dining experience.
Speaker 2 (00:09:49) - I can guarantee you that the probability of them acting out on those negatively stated intentions of, hey, I'm not coming back to this place are pretty high.
Speaker 1 (00:09:57) - Absolutely. Yep.
Speaker 2 (00:09:58) - You know, if you flip that around and they say, oh, it was a good experience, but their likelihood of coming back may be 50%, right? So we're just kind of hardwired. So what we do at Verity Group is kind of focus on measuring friction, and then looking at the relationship between friction and the actual transactional buying behavior of customers, right? And that's how we get at the economic impact of CX Friction Points.
Speaker 1 (00:10:24) - So I love that. I think, you know, Dennis, so many companies, they go about building a product, building a service, trying to solve a problem in a space, and you're right. There's not always the intention of thinking about what to, they think about friction on the grand scale of the problem. Once you actually build your product, your service, whatever you're delivering to your customers, then you have to actually kind of look in the mirror and look at all the different friction points that are actually happening within your business.
Speaker 1 (00:10:53) - Other part is this, companies are constantly pitching, pivoting, changing, updating, making new investments in product, service, team members are coming, going, you're getting different levels of sophistication. All of that stuff has a direct impact in terms of how those friction points are changing. So it's not a static thing. It's always changing, evolving. There's always different new friction points coming up. Other thing too is like, we're living in a very interesting time.
Speaker 1 (00:11:21) - Like you think about companies like Amazon, you think about companies like, even whether you love Manhattan, but Uber, like there are some companies that have made certain things extremely easy, essentially, they've taken all the friction out, right? It's so damn easy. All you do is push a button and a thing shows up. And it's funny because I know that every business is different. Every team is different.
Speaker 1 (00:11:43) - But if you're not taking time to actually identify, and then secondarily, thinking about how you can measure those friction points, even if it's simple, right? Even for some of our listeners, if you're thinking about different ways of identifying friction points within your startup product or service, like that's an easy way to start filling up a roadmap of possibilities for what you need to fix, what you need to change, what you need to do more of. And then I would argue communication, right?
Speaker 1 (00:12:08) - It gives you an opportunity to go have conversations with customers to make sure that certain friction points actually do rub them the wrong way, right? Because I got to imagine you guys have probably seen with some of your work at the Verity Group, there's probably companies where you identify a handful of friction points. Some of them are probably way more disruptive to LTV and to retention than others, right? I got to imagine like some things customers are okay, or they're willing to accept. Some things they will not.
Speaker 1 (00:12:37) - So I really like that idea of measuring, managing, and always be assessing what your friction points look like.
Speaker 2 (00:12:44) - Yeah. I mean, there's not an organization that we talk to that already kind of has a general understanding of the friction points, what they are, you know, and they're looking at it mostly from frequency point of view, kind of squeaky wheel, you know, kind of point of view. So it's what are they hearing the most about from their customers?
Speaker 2 (00:13:05) - And I would say 95% of the time, Adrian, what we see or what we know to be true is that the most frequent problems that organizations are generally hearing about are oftentimes the not, they're not the most damaging to their business in terms of economic impact. As a matter of fact, there are problems that are well down the frequency spectrum that really are core issues, especially to higher value customer segments or what have you that largely go unaddressed.
Speaker 2 (00:13:39) - And so when you're thinking about tackling customer experience improvement, you know, it's like, where do you begin? And oftentimes customer organizations resort to the frequency measures, you know, which problems are happening most frequently. And we know that that is a recipe for throwing good money after bad, right? It's really a waste of resources in many cases.
Speaker 2 (00:14:02) - And so really what we're focused about is helping organizations separate noise from signal and letting them focus on those critical few issues that if addressed will have a material impact on business performance. As we like to say, we're all about the money. And that is an area where I think in customer experience, I was on a chat yesterday on LinkedIn actually, as a matter of fact.
Speaker 2 (00:14:27) - in one of the individuals that was involved in the chat said, you know, I think one in four customer experience programs actually link the data to economic performance.
Speaker 1 (00:14:37) - Yep.
Speaker 2 (00:14:38) - Well, that is a travesty. It's like, what are we doing here? You know, it's like, if you can't show your organization the impact, economic impact of improvement, then where is going to be the buy-in organizationally, whether it's systems or people or process changes or what have you, it's very difficult to drive the necessary change and adoption of change unless you have an economic case to be made.
Speaker 1 (00:15:04) - I've been thinking about our conversation of, on our last chat, you were talking about literally tying a projected ROI or your expected ROI sets to CTAs. And honestly, Dennis, I've been laughing because there's so many companies out there. As you just said, that number one, they feel that they're not getting the value because they're not doing that.
Speaker 1 (00:15:26) - But second of all, we work with a ton of CX directors, VPs, the guys and gals running these customer-facing teams here at CXC. One of the biggest obstacles they have with why they're not getting executive buy-in, executive approval of resources, the next tool, the next person, et cetera, they're not doing what you just said. They're not actually computing even a projected ROI set. And then the other piece is kind of being able to do prioritization based off the money.
Speaker 1 (00:15:55) - And for everyone listening right now, easiest way you're gonna get your CEO and CFO and COO to agree to something, show them the money, whether it's the gain, whether it's the savings or whether it's the optimization. Because we are in an interesting time right now where teams are slimming down, tech stacks are slimming down. A lot of people might not have the same type of budget that they had a year or two ago. So this is like one of the easiest things you can do, listeners.
Speaker 1 (00:16:24) - It's like start tying the CTAs to the ROI set and then be able to show your wins along the way. Because if you start winning and you start showing a couple at-bats or you hit the damn ball out of the park or even just to get on base, executive leadership team's gonna listen to that. They're gonna pay attention to that. The more people that get on base, the more support and the more resource allocation they're gonna get. It's as simple as that.
Speaker 2 (00:16:51) - I think in our previous discussion, Adrian, we were chatting about a couple of different cases and what kind of stood out to me. And if you're okay, I would like to share with the listeners one example of what I really consider a great success story. And so we're working with an organization. They've been measuring the customer experience for a decade or two, right? I mean, and most organizations have some type of voice as a customer initiative going on, especially big organizations. And this company was similar to most organizations, right?
Speaker 2 (00:17:28) - They've been sending out surveys, looking at unstructured data. They really felt like they had a pretty good handle on the insights and they were serving them up to the executive committee. This is a 20 plus billion dollar company, right? So it's not a small shop. The insights were falling on deaf ears, right?
Speaker 2 (00:17:50) - As a matter of fact, there was a conversation going on in the C-suite about, is there really revenue, profits to be gained by improving the customer experience or should we focus on cutting costs or going more to our digital channels or finding alternative ways to either save money or grow revenues. But the customer experience piece, do we really need to invest in it? And if we do, can we make more money, right?
Speaker 2 (00:18:19) - And so through an initiative that we implemented with them now would be about 15 months ago, we actually were able to, to your point, explicitly link in revenue dollars, the impact that specific CX friction points were having on their business to the tune of roughly $330 million of recoverable revenue.
Speaker 1 (00:18:47) - Wow.
Speaker 2 (00:18:48) - And the key thing there, and this is why I kind of just have a bit of a warm spot in my heart about this case, is that they told us that it was the first time in the basically 20 years that they've been actually serving up customer experience data to their executive committee. It was the first time that the customer actually had a voice at the table in 20 years.
Speaker 1 (00:19:10) - Wow.
Speaker 2 (00:19:12) - And so they literally were using the prioritized, economically prioritized list of opportunities as a way to rationalize capital and operating investments for this upcoming fiscal year.
Speaker 3 (00:19:24) - Wow.
Speaker 2 (00:19:26) - And that's, to me, a really good example of the power that CX practitioners can really exhibit if they take the time to explicitly link their CX insights to the economics of the business. Without doing that, I'm with you, Adrian, it's very, very difficult for these CX practitioners to really make meaningful impact on their organization.
Speaker 1 (00:19:54) - Yep, yep, I agree with that entirely. Dennis, a question that I'm thinking about is, like off that, the example you just shared with us, with all the different companies you have had the privilege of working with at the Verity Group and throughout your career, of the four pillars, do you, is there, what's the starting point? Like, is there a place to actually start with thinking about how you're showing or at least piecing out what some of the potential ROI sets look like? Meaning, do you start with the team? Do you start with the tech stack?
Speaker 1 (00:20:30) - Do you have to start inside a process and actually get into all the fat and understand everything that's going on? Or feedback, just start right with feedback. Start with whatever historical feedback data you have, extrapolate whatever you can, and begin to build your CTAs plus your potential ROI returns from there. Like, for some of the folks listening, maybe they're not at a $20 billion company. They're working at a company that's $10 million in annual revenue, right? And there's maybe 25 people or 40 people coming together to make that money.
Speaker 1 (00:21:01) - Where would you suggest that some of those folks start? And then what were some of the ways that you've kind of seen work well for kind of testing and iterating? Because I imagine it's always a process, right? You're always going to get better. You're always going to get closer with your numbers. You're always going to get better at kind of identifying which two or three primary areas will return the biggest bang for the buck for the business. But where would you suggest people kind of start with this?
Speaker 2 (00:21:28) - Yeah, it's a great question, Adrian. For me personally, I honestly believe you need to start with team. Because let's face it, the road is littered with organizations that have went out, bought a tech stack, bought a software as a service solution, implemented. It may be collecting a bunch of feedback, but because there's no strategic alignment and there's no buy-in from the team, the data goes nowhere, change doesn't happen.
Speaker 2 (00:22:02) - And you're spending a lot of money on generating insights that quite frankly aren't going to have the impact that they could have. Had the team been really brought along in the process, now to get the team to act, you need to have a burning platform. And oftentimes the burning platform shows up in terms of economic risk or opportunity. To get the team to, it's one thing to get them to culturally buy into it. It's another thing to actually drive change initiatives and get new processes, procedures, and things in place.
Speaker 2 (00:22:38) - But without the team on board, the rest of it is interesting, but I think it kind of stops and ends there as interesting. So that would be my personal opinion in kind of what we've seen in the cases where we've been more successful is getting that team involved early and bringing them along in the process. And not just the executive team, it's into the one, two levels down, getting into the voice of customer through the customer service agents, frontline staff, all different levels of the company.
Speaker 1 (00:23:09) - Yep, so I love that, Dennis. I think you're spot on. I also think that there's just too many companies out there that their tech utilization or their tech stack usage performance, it's not good enough. So you're right.
Speaker 1 (00:23:24) - So on an executive level, you might think because we've already invested in the CRM or we've invested in the ticketing platform or we just updated our telephonics or whatever it looks like, if the guys and gals actually doing the damn activities every day, don't know A, how to use those tools, B, aren't coach supported, educated and invested in, right? Cause that's...
Speaker 1 (00:23:48) - Honestly, that can be hard for a director or a leader to do that.
Speaker 2 (00:23:52) - Sometimes you need outside support.
Speaker 1 (00:23:53) - And then the thing that I'm always kind of going crazy about on the show is like content. In today's world, people have to have really good content to know how to do things, whether it's videos, whether it's audio podcasts internally, whether it's e-books, whether it's your confluence or your knowledge base. People need lots of content to be able to actually understand how to use this stuff.
Speaker 1 (00:24:18) - And I think you're so right, where so many companies, especially growth companies, companies that are on the up, so they're still learning the stuff and still perfecting their space. The lack of tech stack utilization is what makes VOC construction and then VOC reporting across the business. It's what makes it difficult. So you've got 20 different tools.
Speaker 1 (00:24:42) - Yeah, now you do need a data scientist to be able to actually aggregate, compartmentalize, assess, segment, and then create a bunch of different reports because there's different leaders in the business who care about different things. So I love your answer. I think that's spot on. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:24:59) - And at the end of the day, granted, there's all kinds of amazing technology that's available. And AI is bringing us along at a crazy rapid pace. But fundamentally, it's about people, in many cases, people either serving other people or those customers who are trying to address their needs. So it is a human-based industry that we're in. We're trying to make customers buy more from us, recommend us more, and do all the types of behaviors that we would like them to do.
Speaker 2 (00:25:42) - So we really need to understand what is getting in the way of customers behaving in a way that we would like them to as business owners. And the way in which you do that can be through technology and insights and data and all the cool things that we can do in the CX industry. But if you don't understand fundamentally the changes that need to occur and you have the case to make those changes, I think it's one of the reasons why some of those data points I was referencing earlier from Forrester and others is what they are.
Speaker 2 (00:26:17) - Because I think at the end of the day, organizations just really aren't getting at that core piece of the CX puzzle and solving for it, right?
Speaker 3 (00:26:29) - Yep.
Speaker 1 (00:26:29) - I agree with that. I think the one big thing we've seen at CXC with our clients is just assembling the type of internal task force that has the right subject matter expertise around the table to be able to take some of the learnings, the findings, the good, the bad, the ugly, and parse it out in a more meaningful way. And I think to get back to your point about how do you establish ROI, it's not in all cases. It's easy to figure out your math and you understand exactly how you're going to pick your direction for what's good, what's bad.
Speaker 1 (00:27:04) - But if you're building a different type of product, different type of service, you're brand new to a space, you're disrupting an antiquated industry that you're kind of going to win by doing a bunch of things the opposite way of what's worked for decades for the big guys, you need like part of the, and this is where I'm kind of getting into some of the EX data, some of the employee experience, but that's why this stuff is so critical in terms of being able to meld all these different worlds, all this different knowledge from your team.
Speaker 1 (00:27:33) - And lastly, most folks, if they're at companies where they're actually getting that type of involvement and to your point earlier in the show, they're actually being brought along in the process. They're literally designing the damn thing. Those are more fun jobs to have typically. Most people like hanging out in companies like that because they're given autonomy and authority and they can be part of the building process.
Speaker 2 (00:27:54) - Yeah, it's funny. So we, we do a monthly newsletter, you know. We put it out, you know, via LinkedIn, or send it out to clients or folks that are friends of ours, and we usually include a poll, Adrian and you know, just trying to pick people's brains, and then we share the results back, etc. And I think that in this past month we asked, you know, if there's one gift- CX gift- you could give to your organization's kind of right before the holidays. You know, what would that be right?
Speaker 2 (00:28:21) - And and in the number one answer was a gift of an aligned organization. Well, you know, well, you know, was like the and so I think it speaks to the challenges organizations, you know, practitioners have.
Speaker 2 (00:28:35) - Yep, I'm really getting everybody in, you know, on side as matter- an old boss of mine referred to it, as you know- how do we get the elephants to dance, you know, together, it's like how do we get everybody, you know, operating in the same, same manner and and around aligned, common purpose, yep, and and at the end of the day- again, I use that term, but it's, I think, really about building the economic case for change. Yep, because you know otherwise, I think it's really a lot of opinions, points of view.
Speaker 2 (00:29:10) - You know more argumentative datasets and not hardcore business facts to drive the necessary change.
Speaker 1 (00:29:19) - Yep, I agree with that entirely, dennis. This is awesome. Before we start to wrap up, I want to make sure I give you an opportunity. Where can people that are interested in learning more about some of the stuff that we're talking about today? So the market research, customer loyalty, customer experience, optimization, voice of customer reporting, all this stuff- right, there's so much. There's so much to it, but where can people learn a little bit more about some of the the work, the ideas that you put out?
Speaker 1 (00:29:48) - And then where can people learn a little bit more about how the Verity group is actually doing this type of work with your customers today?
Speaker 2 (00:29:57) - Right, mm-hmm, so clearly you know. Go to our website, you know wwwveritygroupcom, and there we have about our approach in our methodology, but we also have a lot of case studies. You know manufacturing, industry, retail industry, insurance and financial services, etc. And you'll see more about this revenue at risk methodology that really helps to isolate specific CX friction points and assign an economic risk value to it.
Speaker 2 (00:30:29) - And then we have an insights page where you know pot, previous podcasts, participated on white papers, our work that was published in Harvard Business Review, our work with Wharton University, at the University of Pennsylvania. It's all out there for people to take a look at and download, and then on LinkedIn, we're pretty active. On LinkedIn. We're not only just out posting our own things, but we're also commenting and sharing others select work that you're doing, Adrian and and others.
Speaker 2 (00:30:58) - And again we're gonna have a bit of a contrarian point of view because our methodology and our philosophy, quite frankly, is a little bit unique. But you know, hopefully at the, you know what we can do is stimulate some thought right to have maybe some different types of conversations with organizations or between organizational sponsors or what have you, so that they get more out of the dollars investing in their CX initiatives, whatever that might be.
Speaker 2 (00:31:29) - So we're here to kind of help organizations think differently and, to the degree that our, our content and our information can help in that regard, we welcome folks to access that at their convenience.
Speaker 1 (00:31:42) - I love it. Dennis, right now, now more than ever, customer focused business leaders need help with what you just said. They need different ideas, they need to be creative, they need to produce some returns. That's the bottom. It's like anything in life: you have to produce returns for people that continue to invest. And I think that you know some people have a pessimistic view on the on the whole CX and CS space right now- not really me.
Speaker 1 (00:32:07) - I still think everything that we just talked about today- figure our math out, figure out the friction points, figure out the signals leading and lagging, figure out what makes your customers tick, figure out what makes your customers leave. This is, this is a complex thing. There's no way that companies can just get rid of this all together and not have really smart guys and gals doing what you know you and your team are doing a verity group- and then just customers- everything.
Speaker 1 (00:32:33) - Customer is the lifeblood of any business and you've always got to be thinking about how you can actually improve and better serve them. So, Dennis, this has been absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on the show sharing your experience in your story. I will look forward to keeping our conversation going in the future.
Speaker 2 (00:32:48) - My friend, yeah, Adrian, thanks to you, thanks to your listeners, and really appreciate the opportunity to share the verity group story with with everyone. So thank you started.