Art, Business & Professional Listening with Alice Edy

Alice Edy is a lifelong doodler, professional listener, and the illustrator behind her business, Live Drawing. She transforms complex conversations, workshops and events into hand-drawn visuals. 

Her work may look like drawing, but really it's about listening. Alice has an incredible ability to tune in to what matters - in her work and also (I can attest) in her daily life. 

In today's episode we hear about how Alice moved from almost resenting her business to absolutely loving it. And I press her for the secret to pro-level listening. Turns out, it's something we can ALL do. 

Alice is one of those people who's just really good at converation (we chat about that too!). I'm sure you're going to enjoy this episode. 

Connect with Alice Edy

LinkedIn: Alice Edy

Website: www.LiveDrawing.com.au

Instagram: @graphicrecording 

Let's Connect!
Please get in touch with any questions, suggestions for future episode topics, and to let me know how you're going applying what I share in the podcast in your own life.

Come say hi on instagram: @_anniecarter

And head to my website anniecarter.com.au for some free gifts, and to sign up for emails from me.

You can find out more about my business, Eve Studio at evestudio.com.au or follow us on instagram: @_evestudio_

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Transcript

Annie: Alice Edy, welcome to Yes, You.

Alice: Thank you so much for having me, Annie. I've been looking forward to this conversation for ages.

Annie: Oh, me too. I am on the land of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation here. That's where you are as well, right?

Alice: Yeah, yeah. I'm on Wurundjeri land as well. In Brunswick.

Annie: Mm-hmm. Lovely. So I wanna talk to you about your business. We wanna start with what it is that you actually do. Live drawing. And can you explain what that is? What's live drawing?

Alice: Yeah. So my business is, excuse me, it is what it says on the box. I do live drawing, so, um, I do a thing called graphic recording. It's also called scribing, also called visual notes.

It's this job where no one knows what it's called and it's very difficult for me to work up my SEO as a result. But, um, essentially I show up at meetings or conferences or workshops or anywhere that, that there's a conversation happening and I draw in real time what people are saying. So I'm kind of listening, I'm sorting through the points, I'm kind of clearing up the noise and I'm sort of taking the key insights and putting them in pictures so that they're a bit more memorable and accessible and yeah. So that's the, that's the elevator pitch. How did I do?

Annie: You did great. It's such an amazing skill, like to see you do what you do at all, I just think is, so impressive. Like, and I imagine that people who are at events where you are doing that, that some would just be so captivated by watching what you are doing, not only what you are communicating through it, but just the ability that you have in itself, like watching you do like kind of work your magic.

Alice: It's so, it really is special. It's a lot like looking at a fire where I think there's just some things that humans are drawn to and it's quite hypnotic in that way where I think watching someone draw, I mean, for me, it's my job, but if I go to an event where there's another graphic recorder working, I find it as magical as the rest of the audience.

Like I can't take my eyes off it 'cause it's just, yeah, there is something that, that feels really ancient about someone. Making marks on paper or, you know, sometimes we are drawing on paper on the walls, sometimes it's digital. But in both those cases, like there is just something about, there's like, it's like alchemy, right?

Like there's this intangible content and through the act of drawing it becomes something material. And that is just magic.

Annie: Mm, that's so true. I, I love that you said it's like watching a fire. It's making me realise on Instagram, like there's not many things that I won't just scroll through in the middle of whatever the, the video is, but when somebody is drawing, I am compelled to stay and watch the whole thing.

Like to just watch right to the end. Even if it's just like a doodling kind of thing. There's just something, yeah, really mesmerising.

Alice: Totally. I have a theory about that, that it's to do with being able to see that, that it's to do with being able to see the hand. And I think, 'cause there's, there's digital versions where you're drawing on an iPad, right?

So it's recording your drawing, but you don't see the hand in the final export of the animation. And then there's some that are like an actual camera recording the drawing. And they're both cool, but the ones where you see the hand, I think, I feel like on some deep primal level, we all can put ourselves in the hand.

Like we watch our hands do stuff every day. That's my theory.

Annie: Good theory. I like it. So on your website for your business, it says that you stumbled into the world of business events over a decade ago and you never looked back. Can you talk a bit about that beginning moment? Like how did that happen that you stumbled into business events and why did you stay with it?

Alice: Yeah, so the first job that I ever did live was in front of 800 people, and I had never practised this before, I'd never even seen it done live, but I was in my mid-twenties and I'd, I'd received a call from a friend of, a friend of a friend who was in event organising, and they were looking for someone to do this.

The client had seen it overseas and they wanted it, and they couldn't find anyone in South Africa who did it. They were literally just trying to find someone who, who would put up their hand and, and give it a go. I'd at that stage been working as an illustrator for maybe four or five years, but more commercial illustration, more calligraphy kind of stuff.

And I was just saying yes to anything that involved drawing. So I was like, okay. Yep, sure. Uh, corporate, yep. And the thing that I think was so surprising about that event was when I went into it, I was so sure in the conviction that I would hate it, that it would be a bunch of people in suits and I'd, I'd written a story about what that meant about the event.

What it meant about the people, what it meant about me. And we'd never be able to connect. And it, and it was kind of like very mercenary. Like I was gonna go in 'cause I was getting paid and I was gonna get out. And I was so wrong about that. It was so fun being in corporate spaces, I think, 'cause I came from a fine arts background and a creative background, like you're one of so many creatives in those spaces and a lot of the time it's all of us insecure artists just yelling about how special we all are. Like it's, it's a lot of us just needing therapy, trying to prove that we're like precious little snowflakes and we're all so unique and all that noise. And then you get to corporate and it was just so fun bringing this unexpected creativity into a space where people weren't expecting it and actually what a privilege that is to be the kind of holder of that joy and how playful it is and how you know, in, in an art space there's a lot more, um, ego and insecurity, and then there can just be a lot more noise around that sort of scene. I'm generalising, but they can be. And, and there was just something really refreshing about going into this kind of like annual meeting and just drawing pictures.

Annie: Mm-hmm. Was it because you got to be the only second snowflake, you didn't have to compete with anyone?

Alice: I mean, I feel so seen, but uh, that, that definitely factored in. For sure. I'm, I'm sure that was part of it. Um, but yeah, it is just also like, it, it felt lighter because the expectation is so much different.

And also because like, as a graphic recorder, like our job is to be there to listen and, and be the custodian of someone else's message. Like it's actually not about Alice Edy and what she thinks like it really is about I get to step out of my head for a day or half a day or an hour or whatever and, and just like really hold space for, for what is mattering to other people, and that is such, it's such a privilege. It's also such a relief.

Annie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Listening is such a huge part of what you do. Like essentially you are a professional listener which I think is amazing. And when I have talked to people about you and your work, it's, that's what I, part of what I talk about and everybody is always so interested in that, like how amazing to do that for a job where you just learn to really refine that skill of listening.

I'm interested for you, was that always a strength or was that something that you have worked on, or how has that developed over time?

Alice: Yeah, I mean, firstly just to, to really echo that. Yeah. I think it's a job that looks like drawing, but the drawing is 10% of what is happening. The drawing is the least important and actually the least interesting piece of what's going on.

It really is, yeah, it's about showing up and listening and I think to your question, like it's a bit of both, I guess. Like I think I have always been quite a curious kid and, and now curious big kid. And, and I think that that's kind of an orientation to the world. Like I think that that's a choice that anyone can make.

So to then follow to your second point, like it is also something I think that you can work on. And it's something that I try work on a lot to, to make it better. And I mean, there's, there's loads of pieces to that. And just as we're talking, this is gonna sound so random, but like, there's so many threads that come into it, but my ex-husband, who was my partner of 14 years and is now a very, very dear friend, he has a stutter. He has a speech impediment, and I think that it's only something I've really registered like much later in speaking to him about it. But I think watching his communication with people and how often people step on him to finish his sentences because they can't hold space for like silence and listening, and it used to just drive me crazy watching people like with the best intentions, kind of like, not actually listen, but just step in and talk on top of him. You know, like that, that it's, it's not the only thing. I think there's like loads of pieces to listening and curiosity, but it's just as we're talking now, that just popped into my head and I'm like, yeah, there, there's so many little things where I think, like I listening is something I notice, I guess is what I'm trying to say, I really, it's something that's really important to me in my relationships, in the way that I show up in the world.

Annie: Yeah. Obviously, if it's important to you, then it's gonna be something that you just both naturally and intentionally develop.

And so how do you go about listening to ideas, say at a, an event or a conference that's about something that you don't know anything about. Like how, how do you listen? I dunno if this is something that you can answer, but how do you listen to complex conversations or ideas and then transform them or distil them into something that is relatively simple in a drawing what's- can you break down the, the process?

Alice: I can try. Um, for me, there's two parts to that, right? Like the first, as I kind of said before, I think is like having an orientation towards the information, which is to, to approach content. Trusting that it is interesting and assuming that it is interesting because I think a lot of the time it's easy to kind of roll our eyes and be like, oh my God, he's gonna, it's another leadership workshop, and it's gonna be the same this trotted out to get, like, it's, it's so easy to be cynical or, you know, to go into a corporate, like it might be financial strategy and something that's like pretty dry and not my natural, um, favourite topic to discuss. But it is like I, in the beginning I'd kind of play like a game where I literally was like, like the game is to pretend that this is interesting and to be like- Okay, cool, I'm gonna find the parts of this that are interesting. And the thing is like it, it works. Like if you tell your brain that genuinely it works and you kind of show up with that curiosity. And then I think the second part of that is also just trusting.

Trusting, like our brains are amazing. They're always making patterns. They're always seeking to understand stuff, and I think we go wrong when we are so worried about like performance and being quizzed on it. That we repeat, we, we just repeat back what the person says to try be, right? So I'll always try, especially if I'm taking notes to take, to write it down in different words, which means that necessarily I have to show up wanting to understand it, and that I really am trying to synthesise it and make it my own and make sense of it. And I think that there's like a very different feeling of, of understanding and apprehending when we're, when we want to hold something in us and like not, not just keep it outside and not keep it external. Does that make sense?

Annie: Yeah. Yeah it does. And I'm wondering how invested your clients are. So whoever books you to draw at an event or conference. In the finished piece, like do they do, does it happen that they come and say, hang on, you really like, you know, botched that bit up, or, you know, you really clearly didn't understand what we were talking about, or, or no, this is the thing that we wanted to draw out of it?

Or is it more generally just about the process and not so much about the, the finished piece for them? Yeah. Does that vary?

Alice: Yeah. It, it, it really depends on them. It depends on, the question that I always ask them is like, what is the work you want the graphic to do? Is it about the performance and the engagement and the excitement of happening live in the room?

Is it about having a tangible artefact afterwards that's actually gonna do. Work as a communication piece, like out in the world. And obviously like both of those, those things are entangled. Like they're never separate, but it's kind of like, where are we placing the weight? But, um, to your points on like, has it ever gone wrong or have I ever like completely misunderstood?

I think like, I mean I've, I've like made a million mistakes. There's no going this. I think that's what I love about this job is like, you can only do this job when you're okay with making mistakes in public 'cause there is no, there is no human being who's going to get it right every time.

And I think that's the gift is it kind of really like forces that humility to the front. And I think it's just, I really just make a point of like, that's the human piece of it, right? Is like if I get something wrong from a spelling mistake to actually like conceptually wrong that that's okay. Like, we'll talk about it, we'll fix it, we'll edit it.

I, I used to have, um, I used to make these mugs. I used to have free, like branded mugs and a little sign by my desk at live gigs, and people could, if they spotted a spelling mistake, they got a free mug. So it was a way of like kind of owning it and getting them on board and making it fun and interactive.

But it just got, it just got really expensive. Like, I can't afford that many mugs, Annie. So, but I actually, like, AI is great for this because now my mistakes are like beautiful and a sign that a human did it and the, you know. So I think, I think like owning, owning the errors is part of it. And it's always like a gateway to learning more. And I think if that's the approach, then, then it's fine.

Annie: Yep. And most people love the opportunity to correct somebody else or, or to clarify something. So, I mean, maybe about spelling thing, but even if it was more of a, a concept, this is what we're talking about, or this is what--

Alice: Totally. Exactly, and there's always a quote that I kind of refer to. I, I sometimes will bring it up to clients, but I just hold it in my head anyway, which is, it's an Einstein quote where he says, if you can't explain something to a 6-year-old, then you don't know what you're talking about. And, and I just think like, I'm the 6-year-old, like, that's my job.

So there's also space for if there's a misunderstanding that's like, that's not- the speaker, and that's not me. That's something that's happened in the space between us and that's an opportunity for us to like find a different way to connect. And maybe if I've misunderstood it, maybe other people have too or, or maybe as you, as you say, like maybe that will- like someone will love the opportunity to come and share and, and correct it together and learn together.

Annie: Mm. And even it can be a process, like I'm thinking in, I mean, a totally different context, but in like a counselling setting, like one of the things that we do is, um, is reflecting back what we're hearing and one of the purposes of that, uh, or one of the functions of that can be that if you don't get it quite right, that the client gets to go, no, no, not quite that. And to, and that process for them helps them to get clearer on what it is that they're wanting to, to share. So I think there's something in that exchange, isn't there?

Alice: Totally. Couldn't agree more.

Annie: So this skill spills over into the rest of your life, this listening ability and at the risk of sounding like I'm talking about you all the time when I'm talking about you to other people, and we talk about your, your what you do. One of the things that I do have said to people is that I see that skill in you in conversation and in groups.

You have a really amazing ability to listen to what somebody else is saying, either one person or a group of people, and just really pull out kind of what's the heart of the matter. I really notice it in the way that you, the questions that you ask and the way that you respond or the, the contributions that you make in a group, uh, conversation.

It's a really, really beautiful skill. It's very, I really admire it. And when I have talked to people about that, everyone that I've talked to is always like, that's such an amazing skill. Like, I would love to feel like I could do that. What do you think that you are doing there? Um, I get that it's probably a hard question to answer, but yeah. How, how do you listen to a group and, and get to the heart of the matter, distil it down to something to kind of engage with or work with?

Alice: Firstly. Thank you. That's, that's very, um, meaningful thing to say and to hear. Thank you. I really appreciate it.

You're welcome. Um, and. I, I what I, my answer to that, which is I will, I will die on this hill because I believe this so much. I think that the answer to that is I'm, I am really not afraid of asking stupid questions, and I think so much stuff gets missed in the space between, you've got two skulls containing two brains with two wildly different experiences of reality.

And we have to work on a lot of assumptions just to kind of like wake up in the morning and have a vaguely normal conversation with someone over a cup of cup of coffee and get on with a day. And I, I get that. That's like, that's what brains do. We sort of need that basic like architecture of reality to, to just be able to move forward.

But like, but I think within that are so, so, so many assumptions about the way things work, expectations what people think, what people mean by certain words. Um, and yeah, I, I really, there are a lot of things in life I'm terrified of, but asking dumb questions is not one of them because I've seen it make a difference, right? I've seen in spaces, you know, even in discussion spaces or workshop spaces or classroom spaces, the relief on people's faces when someone puts up their hand and just asks the kind of basic entry level, um, almost like the, you know, going to the level of like first principles or definitions. So I think to, in my opinion, like that listening and asking questions are kind of two sides of that same coin, right? Like you, you know you're listening because your brain is amazing and it will start wondering, it can't not wonder if it's getting new things put into it. So yeah, I think silly questions all, all day every day.

Annie: I like that. And it's making me wanna kind of roll back the tapes on conversations that we've had because I think of you as someone who asks very intelligent questions, but maybe, maybe it's actually that you're, you've tricked me and you are asking the most basic question that it seemed deeply profound.

Alice: Yeah. I know Jedi mind trick. You're gonna replay it. There's like a montage. We're gonna cut to a montage of Annie's memories and it's me being like but what is blue? Yeah. What do you mean by flaw? Yeah.

Annie: And me being like, see here, I was thinking I knew what Blue was but she's taken it to a whole new level. Yeah. Okay. I love that. Yeah. Amazing. So. Can we talk a bit about, a bit more about your business? We have not too long ago, finished a year together where you were part of the Orchard, the business mentoring program and group.

And when we first met and had our first chat about you and where you're at in your business, uh, at that point you were saying that you had just kind of moved from a place of almost like resenting your business to starting to appreciate it and embrace it for what it was. Can you share a bit about that, what that resentment was about and, and what that shift was?

Alice: Yeah. Happily. Um, yeah. It's so interesting a year on reflecting on what is possible in the space of a year, like in the, in the sort of lead up to our conversation. I was thinking a lot about the Orchard and I was thinking about how, yeah, a a year is a short enough amount of time that it feels like yesterday, but it's a long enough amount of time where you can significantly sort of steer change direction in, in, in like a very sort of profoundly meaningful way in your life.

Um, so yes, that was definitely a huge piece of that for me and I think, I think. I mean, without getting like into full therapy mode on this, 'cause I feel like this is, is something that I've been unpacking for ages, but I had a very specific idea around who I was, the kind of work that I wanted to do, the kind of creative person that I am in the world, the kind of artist that I am in the world.

And I was quite fixed without realising it on a very, uh, rigid and singular definition of success within creativity and within art. I think the problem with that is it's a really brittle way to be, and I think that I had been living in that tension of a thing that was like a really fragile. Perspective on my relationship to my work and how that affects my identity or not.

And anyway, all of all of that to say, so I'd, I'd for the last 10 or 15 years had my own personal art practice running alongside, and then graphic recording, sort of more corporate art and illustration happening next to that. And I would tap in and out. I'd sort of oscillate between the two of them with the focus and the heart and the love and the care going predominantly into my fine art practice.

And then the scraps were going into my, what I, you know, would call my day job. And I mean, I always enjoyed it, but it just wasn't where my, it, it, it wasn't getting the sort of a hundred percent focus and care. And as a result of that, it was like I was kind of always showing up. I was doing enough to get by, but if I had a free day. I wasn't investing that day back in my business. I was like, hell yeah in the studio doing art stuff. So what that meant was that like a lot of the architecture around the business never got any love. So like the systems and processes and kind of financial stuff, which isn't my strong point and is not the thing that kind of like lights me up particularly, there was always something more fun and more kind of feeding into my idea of myself.

So there was always that kind of like the, the- Maybe a way to describe it was just like the centre of gravity for that was so much stronger. So like I, that would always win out. And then it becomes a bit of a cycle because I haven't invested in building the business structures. It means it's clumsy. It means there's a lot of repeated tasks.

It means there's like missed stuff and the, and the admin actually like bloats out because you haven't invested in an elegant system. So then that's annoying. And because that's annoying, it means that next time I have free time, I am avoiding business stuff and going back into the arts. So it kind of was, you know, whatever the opposite it, it's like, um, a cycle that kind, I guess was just a bit of a downward spiral.

And, um, and at some point just realising that I'd gotten so, I just hadn't revisited those definitions, I suppose. I hadn't been honest with myself about where and which moments were giving me joy and through, uh, you know, a, a function of a lot of things. But I think also getting older and, and just the need or the want for a bit more stability becomes more important and suddenly realising that I was here with this career that's been on the back burner for 15 years at that stage, or 10 years at that stage. And it's so fun and it's so joyful, but it's also like completely up to me to make it work. And that was sort of in that moment of, of all of these pennies dropping.

That was finding the Orchard, um, connecting with you, connecting with the other business owners in that space. And it was just like the best thing ever to then be like, okay, cool, with this new realisation that your business is not just your skillset, it's not just your job or your product or your service.

It's the whole environment around that. Like that becomes its own new creative, exciting thing. Like, okay, we get to build this world. Like what are we, what are we gonna make?

Annie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I imagine that that is a challenge that lots of creatives have. Even just the, I guess almost the sense of purity of the creative process, I imagine.

And, and that's probably a unhelpful way of thinking like the word. Um, but yeah, I guess, and then that suggesting that there's some kind of compromise or, um, yeah, letting go of the, the truth or the essence of art, art or something if it becomes commercialised or, um, yeah, if business comes into it.

Alice: Totally. And it, and it was something that really struck me when I went back to do, um, an MFA, which is a master’s of fine art about four years ago, and realising we, you know, we had a really small cohort. There was sort of 10 of us in the class, and I was surrounded by these people that are so committed to their art practice.
 Everyone’s got like a completely different perspective, completely different sort of mode of working and these creative, talented, interesting humans who were all working day jobs to support their art habit, if you will. But like, but none of us spoke about them for two years. Like I can tell you, I can tell you about the philosophical inquiries of a lot of these people.
 I can tell you about their existential this and that, like, because that’s in the work, right? But like, at no point, was there really a space to almost like admit what was paying the rent? Because there’s kind of this, almost like a tacit assumption that that is in like if you are working as an artist, but you’re not making your income from your art and your art alone, that that is in some way failing. And then, yeah it’s a really fascinating space there, because to me, the more I thought about it, the more I was like, that I think makes, I think that makes it even more amazing that there are people working whatever job at a café or going into an office or doing all this incredible work to support their creativity. Like those two things, they’re not mutually opposing.

Annie: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then you get to live in this space where there’s this intersectional crossover. It sounds like you, you still have your creative practice that is separate from your business, but also your business itself and the work that you do in your business is creative.
 It’s, it’s not working in a café. It has aspects of like, utilising those skills that you have as an artist. Does it feel like a good spot for you or, yeah, go ahead.

Alice: Yeah, no, sorry. I was, I, I cut in there, but, um, just to, to say, yeah, I think it’s, um, it has at times, I think, been confusing for those reasons that, that it bears a superficial resemblance to, you know, ’cause I’m drawing, so that’s like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah cool. Is that my art or is that my job? Is that for the clients? So I think that sometimes, you know, I, I had an art mentor once tell me that I should use two different names for each of those because it was essentially really confusing and would detract from people in the art world taking me seriously because I spend all week drawing cartoons for businesses and people in the business world not liking that I make my weird and expressive other work, you know?
 And I just think I bought into that for way too long, and I just, I, I flat out refuse to believe that. Like, I just think that people are smarter than that, quite honestly. And I think like there’s no adult that I’ve met who can’t wrap their head around the fact that we contain multitudes and someone is capable of being silly and serious or you know, creative and also professional.
 Like these things exist at the same time and I just flat refuse anymore to buy into that. They need to be a binary.

Annie: I love that. Yeah. So it’s quite a niche offering. It’s strange actually. I do know one other person who does what you do, but most people wouldn’t know anyone who does what you do.
 Um, but do you think that that makes it harder or easier as a business to have your business be in such a niche area?

Alice: It’s a great question, and I suppose the honest answer is that I don’t know, given that I’ve, I, I don’t have the other half of that as direct experience, I suppose. Mm-hmm. To contrast it.
 My sense of it is that I feel very lucky to be in a niche. I think by the time I get an inquiry from a client, they’ve already, the fact that they found me, it’s so specific that it’s unusual that I have to be like, okay, no, that’s actually what you want is a graphic designer or what you want is a, an illustrator, but you know, animator like it is, I think it really helps in that regard like it is focused so you don’t waste a lot of time on conversations where I would imagine if you’re like a — but you specialise in signage, you know, there’s gonna be a million inquiries also to do the front of the shop and also to do the kitchen and also to do the, so that, that would be my guess.

Annie: Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good, good point. Um, if you were to go back now back to starting your business. What, what would you do differently? Is there anything that you would approach differently?

Alice: Oh my God. Like it? Like every single thing? I would— I’m not like, you know, one of those people that’s like, Hmm, I bet you know, I’d make all those same mistakes again.
 That got me to where I am today. I’m like, no, I was an idiot. Change all of it. Yeah. I feel like, yeah, I think, um, I think the first thing I would, I would do is kind of like I give myself, um, a stern kind of talking to, just around reframing, reframing what this could be. With that, I suppose like, yeah, I, I dunno, I dunno, maybe I didn’t see it.
 Maybe I didn’t see women in business as much at that time. So maybe it’s an unfair thing to say. But anyway, that’s a, I think that’s like a sort of side thing, but I, I think, I just hope that I could expand my mind a bit more in terms of like what’s possible and then I think I would really, really get excited about learning the parts of your business that you don’t like and that you don’t want to understand.
 Because I think those are the things that you’re gonna not do properly. And then they become, like we were discussing earlier, these kind of self-perpetuating cycles of you don’t enjoy them, so they don’t get your love because they don’t get your love. You don’t develop better systems. You don’t refine them because you don’t refine them.
 They’re continually annoying. And the thorn in your side, and it just, it’s no good comes from that and you can save yourself so much wasted time and money by, by just approaching them like, okay, cool. I’m gonna get so good at this. And also ’cause that stuff doesn’t really change. It’s, you know, it’s like once you understand the sort of basics around your finances, the basics around how the tax system works and your super, and whatever the, the booking system or any of those structures in your business, like, that’s one off.
 Like it’s the hardest it will ever be is how hard it is today. And if you can make it through today, like it just gets better to the point where, where you know this thing, you might not ever like it, but you’ve managed to get the piece of the pie chart of your life is so much smaller that it occupies.
 And also I think there’s such a danger with outsourcing stuff too fast, which I think is like I think it’s a really seductive thing ’cause I think like when you’re building a small business, you reach that point where you no longer have capacity to do any, every piece of it. And everything is telling you outsource, outsource it, like get a VA like that that messaging is out there and it’s good advice, but it’s not necessarily the full piece of advice and I think if you run too quickly to pour off work onto someone else that you haven’t fully apprehended yourself, then you create a system where like, or a situation where a lot can fall in the cracks there, basically.
 And I think you, we, we and myself, I can only speak for myself, but like I have been burned by that a few times. Just being much too ready to hand over things and I think you just have to sit with it for a bit. Make sure that you, you’ve owned it, you’ve, it’s yours, right? It’s, it’s your business. You need to understand all the pieces of it, even when you’re not working in all the parts of it.

Annie: Yeah. I agree with you so wholeheartedly on that. I think, um, and I probably maybe swing too the other way where I’m like, I want to know everything. I want to understand everything. But I do think there’s something really empowering as a business owner to at least have a working knowledge of, of all aspects of your business.
 And yeah, you don’t have to be the absolute expert in everything, but when, yes, say even with finances, if, if somebody else does all the bookkeeping for you and hands you a report, but if you don’t actually have enough of an understanding of like, what does this report actually tell me even like what are these lines?
 It’s really, um, a disempowered kind of position. Yeah, I totally agree.

Alice: Just hearing you say the word disempowered. I had a little bookmark in my brain from the, the previous question where we were talking about resentment or like resenting different parts of my business or different parts of my job.
 And I was kind of just like, as we were talking about it, I was trying to like really untangle the word resent and like what, like what does that actually mean? Because that’s different to, to saying like, hate. If you hate someone, there’s like a— there’s like an energy behind that. There’s like an action behind hate. You’re gonna go punch that thing in the face.
 Like you, there’s, there’s action, right? But resentment is like, it implies like all of that negativity without the empowerment. Like, there’s something that I feel like, like tied into the, I don’t know, I’m, I’m just, I’m thinking out loud and you tell me if it, if it lands, but it’s like, there is, to me resent is when you dislike something but feel for whatever reason, like you can’t change it. So you’re sitting with it, holding it kind of like stewing and, and like like pickling in that feeling. And then, and that’s to, to link that back to what we’re just saying with the, the, the best way to make friends with your business and get out of that resentment feeling is to empower yourself to be like, yeah, you don’t have to like all of, all of it, but it’s like you are, you’re an amazing adult who can learn myriad things.
 And you don’t need to be the best accountant. You don’t need to be the best bookkeeper. You don’t need to be the best salesperson, but before handing those things off, I do think you need to spend time in that part of your business so that, again, when, when hopefully you can pass it on to someone else, you’re not passing it on out of fear.
 You’re not disempowering yourself. You’re empowering yourself by, yeah, expanding your capacity, but you’re across what it means.

Annie: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. I think that that’s a really helpful addition. Yeah, and I also was just watching your brain work, as you say. Like I was like, and this is you doing the thing that you do, where in that you’re like, I’ve bookmarked that in my brain.

Alice: I was really hoping, it’s sometimes it’s like, I’m like, I don’t know if. We’re gonna be able to land this plane, Annie, but I’m gonna try, I think there’s something, I think these things connect. Let’s try.

Annie: Yeah. And if not, I’m just gonna bring us back to that you just said pickling something.

Alice: That’s what it feels like though, that that feeling and I think, I think having your own business is like, it’s a very real thing that you need to check yourself for because it’s a huge privilege, it’s so empowering. It’s all the cool things that they say it is, but it is also like your longest-term relationship that you are in, and if you don’t feel that it’s an equitable one, if you feel like that your sort of partner, and in this case I mean the business itself, like if you don’t feel treated well by it and that you are not treating it well, like that can, that’s a really awful place to be.

Annie: Absolutely. Yeah. That’s such a good way of looking at it as a, a relationship with the business or to the business. Yeah. Because it is like that, it has such a profound impact on your sense of self and the way that you perceive your life and yeah, it’s, um, yeah, really significant like that. Yeah. So for you, if this particular chapter of your business now had a name, I know you like books, what, what would the name of this, this chapter be?

Alice: Oh my God. That is a very difficult question.
 I would need to give that some thought. I wish I had a good answer for you. Okay.

Annie: Tell me about this chapter of your business. What’s, what’s important for you?

Alice: Yeah. And then we’ll find the title from there.

Annie: Love it. Yeah, we’ll work on it.

Alice: I think that it’s, I think it’s about expanding and I think it’s, and I think that that applies.
 That, that was sort of my word for this year. And it applies across domains where it’s, whether it’s expanding my idea of what’s possible, my idea of what I’m allowed to want or hope for, or dream for within the business, expand how I show up, as myself with my clients, and then right the way across to like, um, expanding my nervous system so that when I’m showing up for jobs, you know, like it’s a really high-pressure job in the sense that it’s hugely, you know, like a performance-based job. So two or three times a week you’re showing up at an event on stage or next to the stage not knowing what you’re going to do in front of a bunch of people. So like your nervous system is like, oh my God.
 So, um, so yeah, like I, I think like, oh, the next chapter. I am, I’m just hoping to lean into that expanding and sharing more and showing up more. Because I think I was yeah, hiding a bit for the, for the first chapter.

Annie: Yeah. I love that idea of expanding. And when you look five years down the track, does it look different? What would you, what would be different then?

Alice: Yeah, I, I hope so. I hope that. I hope that five years always, that's a long enough time that I, I would love it always to look different. I think, um, at the moment I'm, I'm definitely in a chapter now. I'm 38 now, and I'm very much aware of a shifting life phase moment.
 Uh, and sort of the idea of heading into my forties and, and what that means and what that looks like. And even saying that my forties that feels, that feels like when you're a kid and you put on your mum's high heels. I'm like, that's what it feels to me to say my forties. I'm like, what?
 Who are you kidding? Um, but yeah, I, I think it's, it's, um, I think that I would love my work to be joyful, and I think that that's a choice that I get to make, and it's something I believe is possible, but it's also not something that anyone else can do for you. So, and I, you know, and I say that recognising, I of course am speaking from a position of huge privilege.
 Like I, you know, I'm living in a place in the world that affords me opportunities. I've had education that allows me certain opportunities. There are, there are many privileges stacked, um, where I'm sitting and acknowledging those and being like, with that, I think comes a responsibility to make that into a life that is self-directed and, and you know, and is yeah, joyful and spacious. And, and I hope like shares that kind of energy and that creativity with the people that I work with. And if I can do that, I will and pay the rent. I'll be, I'll be happy.

Annie: Yeah. And as you know, as we've talked about, business has the potential to have such an impact on your sense of wellbeing.
 And like if, if it there is resentment, then that's gonna really play out in not only in your business but but also in your life.

Alice: Pickle juice.

Annie: Yeah, exactly. That pickle. Yeah, exactly. You're just pickling there. And what was I trying to say? I've just gone back to the pickle.

Alice: I'm so sorry.

Annie: No, it's okay.

Alice: I think around like, um regulation.

Annie: Yes. So thinking about you and the way that you wanna be in your business, you've said you want to, to have joy as part of it. What do you do for yourself, or how do you kind of create the conditions in your life and business for you to live and work at your best or in the way that you want to?

Alice: There are a few things that I'm quite intentional about when, when it comes to that. And, and I'm gonna say that with the caveat of of course, like, do I get them all right all the time? No, but we are learning. So, um, the first one is, I know that for me, learning is like a huge core value. I loved, I love the feeling of, of learning and discovering stuff.
 So with that, I, I usually just have like a technical, creative project that I'm working on at the same time through my client work. So, you know, my client's not even gonna be aware of it, but I'm like, this month my focus is characters and expressions. So it means every job I do, I am pumping characters and expressions and experimenting with that and playing with that and learning so that I feel like I've got really like awesome little elements to build in next time.
 And then, you know, next month it might be facial expressions or the month before last, it was dogs and I just, I was like, as many dogs as I can fit into that drawing. It still needs to make sense. It still needs to do all of the conceptual work it was gonna do, but it's gonna do that with dogs.
 So it's just, it's like having a side quest that's going on that keeps like the day to day running of things like really fun for me and really like there's like a game running in the background for me, which, which works really well for my kind of my brain and the way that I like to work.
 Um, and I think clients get a better outcome as well 'cause it means like I'm super interested and kind of charged up. They're like--

Annie: We never knew our industry like we needed dog so much, but–

Alice: Every industry needs dogs.

Annie: There's a dog baking a cake over there.

Alice: It's honestly, it was exactly– it's exactly that. I love it. Um, I need to do a cat month as well. I know, I know. Before, nobody needs to email me. Thank you. Don't worry. There'll be a cat month coming up soon. Then there's the kind of, um, I would say the extra sort of like psychological sort of piece of work, which for like wellbeing wise for me, which is renting office space in a coworking area.
 And it is, it's the biggest expense of my business. Like it's, it adds a huge, you know, like it's another rent for the month for technically something that I suppose I could be doing at home from a, a laptop. But I think it's also, again, looking to my relationship with my business as a relationship and being like, would that be good for me?
 Like, actually, would that bring out the best in my mental health? And I know that I need to be around people. I love, like, I love office stuff. It's, it's like such, such a novelty to me, like in this coworking space. And it'll be like, you know, like people to have lunch with and just kind of break out of your, sort of your little focus bubble every now and then. And so that's a really, um, I find a really valuable piece of my kind of practice. Then I'd say kind of having like diversifying in terms of like creative practice, like, like I was mentioning earlier, like I do my own arts. I do sort of more experimental calligraphy stuff.
 I do painting, I do tattoos on friends. So like there's always a bunch of kind of adjacent creative stuff happening. And, and I do think that they feed in because often it'll be like, you know, I'll be doing something for a client and it suddenly pulls in a colour theory that I came across when I was painting, or I'm writing something and it links up to like a font I was practising in calligraphy.
 So like these things feed each other in unexpected ways and I really always trust that, like, I think having many like creative puts on the stove is, is always good. And then I'd say the final piece, and this is, I'm actually so excited to tell you about this, is running or movement. Movement as a broader category within that yoga, but then newly discovered through Eve running.
 Yeah. Um. And it's just been the most like, joyful, and powerful discovery. Like as, as someone who doesn't feel like a runner, doesn't feel like a sporty person or I don't self define or kind of see myself as that. Yeah, it's, it's been such a gift to discover how mentally clearing that is.

Annie: Mm. I love that for you. So good. Yeah. Nice.

Alice: I was, I was excited to tell you. So last week I signed up for a half marathon and–

Annie: No.

Alice: Yes. I'm terrified.

Annie: Yeah. So exciting. When are you doing that?

Alice: So it'll be in mid-December. Yeah, I know. And there's like a training, uh, work was so busy for the next six weeks and I just had this feeling like I know what's gonna be the first thing to drop away is gonna be movement, and then that begins the cascade of bad mental health and spiralling and overwhelm. So I was like, what is a structure that I can put into place that will protect my, my daily runs and I was like, that's it. That's the one.

Annie: That's so good. I love that. Yeah, and I absolutely support that theory. I know I've been in times where life is really busy, busy business or work is really busy, and the, I guess, conventional wisdom would be like take something out because there's a lot on your plate. But actually sometimes putting the right thing in can be the balancing factor.

Alice: Totally. And, and it's putting a thing in like that will necessarily take things out because that's non-negotiable. Like there's no way I can, I can't, I don't have a high enough level of fitness to be skipping any of those trainings, like which means that I'm not gonna have the glass of wine the night before.
 Right? Yeah. And it means I am not gonna watch another episode of the series the night before because I need to get the sleep because I need to be up. So, like it is, it's, it's adding one thing that's gonna help effortlessly cut out five other things that aren't as easy to say no to, but that ultimately don't make life better, so.

Annie: Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. And that doesn't feel like cutting out of things. It feels like an embracing of something that you're excited about.

Alice: Totally. Totally. And, and speaking of that, to add to that list, I, I think it's connected would be something that I personally find like a deep source of mental, mental stability or, or I don't, I don't know quite the right word, but like it's just structure.
 And I think that that's actually maybe even what I would skip the list I gave you and put that at number one is I think, of course everyone's different, but I know for me, the way that I'm so unstructured, uh, my brain is all over the place. I'm, that's not my natural mode of being in the world. And if I could go back and start my business again, or go back 10 years, the, the gift of structure, the gift of making choice, like giving it deep thought, making choices, and then just giving that, creating a scaffolding around your day and your time so that you don't have to keep wasting mental energy, reinventing the wheel every single day of your life, because if you run your own business, that's like, that's an option. You can do that.

Annie: Mm. I love that you brought that up. Thank you. Because yeah, I agree that it's something that I think people who are creative or, and I think that most business owners are creative in some sense. Enough that they want to create a business. Yeah. Partly are driven by the desire for freedom or a natural inclination to kind of go with the flow and all of that, and it's really easy to then think, oh no, structure for me is restricting and unhelpful, whereas exactly like what you're saying, just the right amount of of scaffolding can be so, so helpful.

Alice: Yeah.

Annie: Particularly for, for those of us who do like to have some creativity and flow in life,

Alice: I think it's like, um, it's like having one of those like really nice backpacks. You could, like, you could carry the same amount of weight in like a shitty bin bag on your back up a mountain, and that's gonna be really unpleasant or if you have like this amazing ergonomic backpack that just structures that weight differently, you can do the whole thing and it's not gonna make your back hurt and you're gonna go way further and you're just gonna feel better. Like it really is a gift. And I, I know, I, I so relate to that.
 Like you say, like business, a lot of business owners I'll hear and a lot of friends, and I've heard myself say as well, you know, like, oh, I just, like, I hate structure. I'm just like, it's not me. It's just like not the way my brain works. Usually the more someone says they don't need structure, I think they do.
 They absolutely do. That's the person who needs structure. I'll tell you right now.

Annie: Yep. And I think it's just about the right, the right kind and the right amount perhaps.

Alice: Totally. The choice, I think– I think when you feel that it's a choice that makes all the difference. Reminding yourself that, you know, no one's forcing you to start a business. Yes. So if you've chosen that, you can choose. You can choose your own structure, but yeah.

Annie: Yeah, yeah. So Alice, before we finish up, are you happy to just share a little bit of what your experience in The Orchard was like?
 Because I so loved having you in the group and getting to know you and your business more. And just in case people are interested in what that experience might be like or mentoring with me in general, yeah, be happy to share. Share whatever feels worth sharing.

Alice: Totally. Um, yeah, I mean, like I said earlier, it's really, I think it's pretty profound the difference in your life a year can make. And I think it was so, like looking back on the year we had together, 'cause it's broken down into a month at a time.
 You move through all of the facets of your business, but not in a way that feels overwhelming. And I think it, it really came across as like a shared thing. You know, meeting with a group of other business owners, like it's so validating. It is so validating, hearing how overwhelmed everyone is. I'm just like, 'cause it's just you.
 It's just you in your head, you know, on an average day. And I'm like, oh my God, should I be posting on LinkedIn? Should I be fixing my website? Should I be emailing clients? Should I be starting a Mailchimp? Is that even a thing? Should I be on TikTok? Is that embarrassing? Like, and that's not even like doing my job, right?
 That's just the work around it. And then, yeah, it's something I've never had, and it's something I'm definitely gonna seek out again in my professional life going forward, is like to be in a space with other business owners, specifically women or non-binary business owners who, yeah, just sharing, uh, sharing experience, sharing insights, having the gift of distance 'cause you're so in yours, right? Like, oh my God, it's like all-consuming and, and we had this space where we could all share different experiences. And I think find that community piece that for a lot of people is, is, is really something that you miss. You know, it like, it comes to December and you don't have an office party and you don't have, you know, the, the Christmas drinks with the mates and it's like, you know, that's a silly example, but it's that all year, right?
 Like you're in the trenches. Often it can feel super lonely. Yeah, and I think like that operates on so many levels. Like that's an emotional sense of reinforcement and support, huge amount of support, but it's also like the wisdom of having women that you respect and admire reflecting stuff back at you and that we all got to be that for each other.
 We, we got to like be on the journey long enough. I mean, like a year is long enough also to watch someone else's whole business change. And like that in itself is never mind like I watched my business level up so much in that year, but I also got to watch, I got to watch it outside of me, you know, but like in 10 other people, which was, yeah, it was amazing.
 Yeah. Um, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Do you wanna chat? I can chat about so much the retreats as well. I'm like, I could, I could bang on– I could bang on forever. But yeah, I think the, the kind of like key takeaways that would jump out to me are definitely, that's that community piece, feeling not alone, learning from each other.
 Because the thing that you are shit at in your business, someone else has, they solved that, they solved that two years ago, and they've got, like, they've read all the books and they can give you the summary, um, which is amazing. And we had your modules as well, which was just so helpful in the sense that it's also contained, like you've curated this amazing course and it's, and there's enough there to, you know, each month you're like, okay, this is my admin month, or my systems month, or my financial month. There's everything you need there to do the spring cleaning in your business and get it to the next level, but it also means you're not, you're not subject to the infinite internet. Like you're not stuck down a rabbit hole of researching this forever and ever and ever.
 And then not doing anything about it, which is, you know, which is a temptation always. So I think that, and then the final sort of piece that sort of plugged into there was those, the structured modules. There was the community connecting that we did, and then we had two in-person retreats as well over the course of the year, which was just like, yeah, the amount that we got done in those two days of just like all, uh, you know, just imagining this beautiful garden and just all of us in our own sitting under trees and our own little bubbles, like with our laptops and papers scribbling away crazy, like solving problems, coming up with ideas and we're sort of like, you've got company, but you're also, yeah, just really feel that feeling of forward momentum was, was really amazing.

Annie: Yeah. I love that too.

Alice: Yeah. How are you feeling after the first year?

Annie: Yeah, it's, um, wild. It feels like a little while ago now already that we finished. But yeah, just so, um, grateful is the main thing. I think just for all the reasons that you said, or lots of the reasons that you said, just getting to track along with people, um, see people grow and change and see their businesses develop and all of that. Just, um, yeah, it feels like a real honour to me to, to get to play that part of, um, you know, a little bit of guidance perhaps, but, and lots of cheering. Being the cheer squad.

Alice: It's not, definitely not, perhaps. There is a, there was a lot of guidance and I think it's something that can't be overstated as well, is for me as a, as a participant, I think it was finding a course that was, that had all the content and the structure of a business course, but run by you who's a woman in business, but not only a woman in business, but it's like with a very specific orientation to the world, a very specific set of values and like the way, I think as well, like for me, a huge part of it was getting to spend time with you and, and not just in the mentorship sort of sessions, but across the year of just watching what it can look like to be a woman with a healthy business, but also like a healthy life with healthy relationships with a healthy movement practice with all of the other pieces that I, for me anyway, I, I don't wanna speak for the rest of the group. I'm pretty sure they felt the same. But like that, that feeling of like the, the offerings out there like, okay, what do you do, right? If you're a woman in business, but you're like, I don't want a fucking girl boss situation, I don't wanna hashtag hustle. I don't relate to that. I find it cringe and gross. Like I, this, this is not exciting to me. This is not what I wanna build. So, yeah, I think that was just such a huge piece of the offering and just, it was just such a gift as, yeah. Thank you for showing up in the world as a, as a woman in it and as you in it doing business as Annie.

Annie: Aw, thank you, Alice. And thank you for showing up as you doing it your way. I love it. Yeah. Well, if people want to connect with you, what's the best way for them to do that?

Alice: They can find me. You can find me on LinkedIn.
 Have you heard of it? It's, it's like Facebook but worse. No, it's fine. Um, we love LinkedIn, so I'm on LinkedIn. Then just as myself as Alice Edy. And then my website is www.livedrawing.com.au. It was recently redone. It is very sparkly and sexy, and I love it, and I'm so happy with it. Uh, it, it still needs, you know, it's never a finished job.
There will be iterations, but um, yeah, new website, uh, yeah. And then socials, I'm on Instagram @graphicrecording one word and yeah, that's me. Come say hi.

Annie: Amazing. Lovely. And I'll pop all of those into the show notes as well, so you'll find if they want to.

Alice: Thank you.

Annie: So Alice, thank you so much. Such a joy always to speak with you.

Alice: Oh, likewise. Yeah. I had so much fun. Thank you Annie.

Annie: Thanks.