EP 260: No Strategy Will Fix This: What Actually Helped Instead

Listen in on a conversation I have with a Club member whose family lived through years of intense, violent, and deeply isolating behavior…and eventually found their way to something different. It’s a story about holding onto the truth of who your child is, even when everything in front of you makes that feel impossible.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Why “just tell me what to do” doesn’t work in the hardest situations, and what actually helps instead
• How holding onto your child’s true essence can anchor you, even in the most dysregulated moments
• The small, doable shifts that can begin to change things (even before behavior improves)

Read the full transcript at: RobynGobbel.com/nostrategy

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:39

So when your good behavior is baffling and yours is too sometimes. Yeah. I know. Let's take a break from all the babozle. You're on the baffling behavior.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Hey, hey, hey, everybody. Welcome or welcome back to another episode of the Baffling Behavior Show. I'm your host, Robin Gobel, and on today's episode, I am so thrilled to introduce you to another parent of a child with a vulnerable nervous system, big baffling behaviors. This is a parent that I have come to know through the club. A parent who is really eager to share their family's story and their family's really hard story, as well as the reality that that story has shifted and things have become more regulated in their family. That this mom really wanted to offer y'all, as listeners, some hope and some connection and co-regulation for those of you who are maybe going through experiences that feel really similar to what this mom is sharing. It's interesting when this mom reached out to me, they expressed some concern that maybe their story was too severe for the podcast. And I know that there's so many of you listening who wonder the same thing. Like, is my story too much? Is my story too severe? Is mine that much different than everybody else's? And so I said, if you're willing to come on the podcast and share, I can guarantee that your story is not too much or too severe, and that there are listeners all over the world who will hear themselves in your family story. So I just have so much gratitude for this parent for their willingness, their eagerness to come on the podcast and connect with me and allow y'all to hear the hope, allow y'all to really hear that it is possible to go through years of really hard, really intense dysregulation and for things to start to get better. And it is also possible to feel better even before your kids' behaviors change a lot. So I'm not gonna babble any further. Let's just get to it. I'm so, so honored to introduce y'all to another one of our club members. Thank you so much for joining me here on the podcast today. I'm actually so excited for this conversation to get to know you a little bit better, but also to have everybody listening hear about your story and hear the hope in it. So thank you, thank you. Thanks. It's good to be here. I am so curious to hear, you know, I went into the club a couple weeks ago and said, hey, I'd love to bring club members on the podcast because I want to offer listeners hope, right? That things can get better. And actually, things can get better even before your child's behavior gets better. And you were one of the first people to reach out.

SPEAKER_03 3:56

Well, I it it really it straight away made me feel excited because I I really thought that during those times of feeling so isolated and so alone, so experiencing violence and rages to a point that just was so different I felt from what other people with kids my age were experiencing. I thought if somebody else could feel and listen to my story and recognize that in their own, that that would have really helped me when I was going through that. So I I was excited by the thought that perhaps somebody who was feeling really isolated and alone could hear my story and think that that's actually similar to what's going on for me. Um, and things have got better in my life and for my family. So maybe that's a little bit of hope because sometimes it is hard to feel hope when you're in that situation, when you don't see things changing and when every day is so hard.

unknown 5:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

And you you even when you reached out to me, you express some concern. Like maybe my, I don't remember the words you used, but you know, maybe my story is almost too extreme for folks. And uh I said, oh, absolutely not. Like this is the story of so many other families, but they're all thinking the same thing you are, right? Like maybe my experience is too extreme or is so unusual, or nobody else would relate to it.

SPEAKER_03 5:38

Well, that's because you know, in my world, when I would with the professionals engaged, and even if I would talk to my family and friends about it, it would just be this look of absolute horror on their faces, even professionals. No one was saying to me, don't worry, we've got this. So I it it just seemed so strange and bizarre to be experiencing this for years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Yeah. Yeah. Before we go any further, could do you mind giving uh folks who are listening just a little bit of background about what you were experiencing in your family?

SPEAKER_03 6:19

Yeah, so my youngest son developed pans pandas um when he was quite young, uh, about age five, but that started with quite severe ticks and OCD, separation anxiety, things like that. And we were lucky enough to have um an integrative doctor who thought it was pandas.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Okay, so early on, somebody suggested that could be a possibility. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

Yeah. But living in Australia, yeah, it's it's not really known or recognized. Yeah. Um and we had other doctors saying that doesn't exist, it's not true. Um, there followed some a couple of hellish years of medication trials, which made things a lot worse. Um, and at about age eight, my son wasn't able to go to school anymore. So he was at home, he was very unwell. Um, and around age seven, I would say he started to be um have rages that were aggressive and violent, um, very, very violent, and that continued. Uh he's now 13, so uh and things have turned a corner now in the past 18 months. So that's many, many years of chaos, violence, isolation, um and just worrying all the time. Very hard.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Worrying not just for yourself, but for our other folks in your family.

SPEAKER_03 7:54

Oh, absolutely. So my daughter who's now 16, it was just heartbreaking because so much of my care had to be, my and focus had to be on him, and she just kind of had to get through. And it was really, really sad. It was sad and awful, and I didn't want that for her. Um, luckily I was able to have some good people in place for her, and um, she was at a school that that understood and knew what she needed was rest and respite and a safe place. So she had that, which was good.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Oh, yeah, that's remarkable. That's really remarkable. One of the things that I've really felt from you, especially in being able to, you know, actually talk what on one like this in the last few minutes, is that you seem to have been able to really hold on to the truth that these behaviors that your son was having that at times were extremely dangerous, violent. Yeah, that that wasn't him.

SPEAKER_03 9:06

Yeah, I think that is the biggest thing that I've had is just an unshakable belief that it wasn't him. I mean, and he, you know, I knew that. I knew and I knew that I couldn't accept that that was how it was gonna be for him. I couldn't accept that he would be sedated or that would be the way through. I I couldn't accept that pathway for him. And I just would it didn't stay all the time. Of course, there were times where I would think, well, this is just the way it is. But then I would get back on track and I would just be able to believe again that inside him was the real him, and it was having a lot of trouble being there all the time and shining out, and I needed to help him.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

I'm married to somebody with essentially grown-up pans pandas, and there it is easy to sometimes forget. Like this person who I love and adore and I know is a really, really great person, is in there somewhere. And I think I just heard you say too that that, yeah, even for you sometimes, it was like, well, I this is just sort of the way that it is, or you said earlier to me, like, this isn't survivable.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

Yeah. So I and and the hard there were times, big periods of time, where he was so violent to me that, but also then he would be distraught and I would have to comfort him. I would then have to care for him. No one was really caring for me apart from myself. So to feel like I'd be in shock and injured, and I would have to be caring for him and comforting him. And at times I I would just think, I just want to get in my car and drive away. I don't I don't want to be comforting you because you just hurt me.

SPEAKER_02 11:04

Yes, of course.

SPEAKER_03 11:05

Um but yeah, so that that part was hard, and there were definitely times where I wasn't feeling I wasn't feeling it. I was feeling like I don't want to be around this person anymore.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Oh, for sure. Of course you were. I mean, it would be that it would be so weird, right? For you not not to feel that sometimes. Do you have a sense? And this might be a question where you're like, no, I have no idea, but do you have any do you have any thoughts or a sense of why you were able to hold on to both? That there could be a part of you that really acknowledged like how bad it was, I can't survive this, I want to just get my car and drive away. And then there was another part of you that it sounds like kind of always held on to hope as well as this like core belief. Like, I know he's in there.

SPEAKER_03 11:56

Well, I I love learning and reading, so and absorbing information, whatever way that is. So I I I knew about trauma, I knew how it worked, yes, and I knew about the nervous system that made sense to me. So I that that part really, really helped. That was an anchor for me and it and it still is. But I did, I do also have a faith, and especially in nature, that really carried me through. I had an emotional support tree. There were times that the days it was so bad, I would just go out there and just connect with my tree and feel like everything can be okay in the universe. It really can. So that that part really helped. I wouldn't have been able to do it otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

I actually really love that because I am aware that sometimes, you know, I talk so much about connection and so much about relationship and so much about co-regulation. And then um folks listening or that I work with, I think can sometimes feel a little bit of like, oh no, like I don't really have a lot of relationships, or I don't have somebody that I can turn to for co-regulation. And it is very real that we can develop those relationships and have those experiences with nature, with pets, even with like fictional characters that we in a way like develop a relationship with, you know, our favorite TV show that we watch over and over and over again, or a favorite, a favorite book that we read or something. So I actually personally find it to be so full of hope to think that we can go into our backyard and be with our emotional support tree.

SPEAKER_03 13:41

Yeah, and I really like that in your book where you talk about being that co-regulation figure. That made a lot of sense to me because uh yeah, just by saturating myself with that material and the audiobook and all the different forms, then you know, I those it it's just in you. And so then in the really hard moments, you just might flick into a thought or something that you've said, and that really helps. And I did it with other things too. I I've been practicing yoga online for so long. Um, I always just think, oh, she's just saying that to me. She's caring for me. So, you know, you're exactly right. When it feels like there's no one, there there is ways that the that things you're being cared for.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Yeah. So when things are feeling, I I think you I know other families who are a lot like yours, right? Where there's this sense of how could this ever get better? Who's gonna help me? I go to the professionals, and the professionals are like gaping at me. They don't know how to help. And it is scary, I think, to feel like, oh my gosh, I know more about what's going on with my son than the professionals. Correct. Yeah, yeah. It's really scary and kind of floundering. And and and still, despite that, there was this way that you were able to kind of stay connected to this truth of somehow we're gonna figure this out.

SPEAKER_03 17:11

Yeah, which it and I didn't really have anyone in real life in my life that was thinking that. I really didn't. Even, you know, my sisters, my main, that she's my best friend and she's my co-regulator. We don't live near each other, but we talk every day. And she would just be really concerned and thinking this can't continue. It just can't continue. And that's what people would say. And I'd say, Well, what's the alternative? Exactly. I don't have one, I've got to keep going forward. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

I I uh that is always the most curious response, like thought, right? Like, well, uh, you're right, this can't keep going. You know, this it's like, sure, this is unsustainable, but do you have another option here? And if it is, why aren't you telling me about it? Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 17:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

So here's this person who's feeling like your primary co-regulator, and it sounds like she's just absolutely amazing. And even still, the sense of nobody gets it. Nobody gets it.

SPEAKER_03 18:16

Yeah. Well, yeah, no one could really see that things could be different. But I remembered him as a little boy, of course I did. And I somebody taught me this phrase once about, and it was hold them in the palm of your hand. And that's I I would just use that mantra because that to me meant holding on to his true essence always, and it really helped.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

I have I am hearing that from folks and have found that to be true over the last 20 plus years of working with um parents and caregivers, and even people eventually can believe that about themselves, right? That like holding on to my kids' true essence or my partners, or eventually, like I said, like my own. And being able to really anchor into that feels like one of the most important pieces for folks.

SPEAKER_03 19:12

Absolutely. And that reminds me of another strategy that I really embrace, which was being the best friend to myself that I could. Um it it changed everything for me, and it just has become a practice that I do all the time. So, you know, the part of me that would be so bewildered and hurt, I would care for. I would say to that part, this is so hard. This is just so difficult. What can I do? And I would make myself a cup of tea, but not just have the cup of tea, like really care for myself. Um, you know, self-care didn't look like spas or anything, but it could be um, you know, just honestly sitting and looking at the clouds for just an intentional few minutes, or on, you know, after these periods of dysregulation or these episodes from my son, you know, I would give myself a hug and care for myself. And that that helped me trying to be the best friend to myself because other then strategies flow from that. Then I found I could know what to do, how to make the next step. What would help?

SPEAKER_01 20:32

We when we were talking earlier, we touched really briefly on the truth that there's not hardly any resources out there that are telling families who are dealing with physical violence. Like, when your child is being physically violent, do this.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

There really isn't, and I don't feel like there could be because it's so unpredictable, um, ever-changing, and really, really unique to people who are experiencing that. So in my particular case, I couldn't shut myself behind a door. Right. I couldn't leave because his intense OCD rage would focus so much on me that the only way he was gonna calm down is if I was there. And I'm I you know, if if I shut myself behind a door, it wasn't gonna stop. There was there really wasn't any way that I could do that. So I know the best advice would be separate yourself from that person, and I understand that, but I actually I couldn't do that, so I had to my best strategy was staying in my real self. Yeah, so that's what I tried to do all the time, and it was hard, yeah, really hard.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Yeah, I am so grateful that you're willing to share that because I well, one, understand the desperation of folks who are like, just tell me what to do, just tell me what to do, just tell me what to do. And I also have found it to actually be extremely relieving to folks when they finally can kind of tolerate the truth that nobody can just tell you what to do. I think it makes it mean like this isn't your fault. You're not missing some magic strategy that if you could just figure it out, you'd be able to solve all this, you know, chaos.

SPEAKER_03 22:43

Yeah. Well, I mean, how can you when there really is there there's no one saying, I'll do this once that's happened. To me, I would say to myself, you've got to go upstream. And the thing that I could change and manipulate was the environment, um, plans, all of those kind of things, all the things I think I said to you earlier, I I do have a practice of writing down things I can control and things I can't control, and then working on what I can control. So I could plan the best that I could to set us us up for success. You know, whether or not that happened, I still could um I could still make small changes, even despite not having that medical care or anything like that, there was still things that I could do, and that felt really soothing to me. It felt like I was actually it made me feel less hopeless, less helpless.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Yeah, that makes sense. It's you still felt some sense of like empowerment and some agency, some that some action was possible, which makes a lot of sense to me that that could be that could help you kind of stay out of falling into hopelessness. Yeah. Do you remember what any of those things were? Like what small things do you remember feeling like I can still do this?

SPEAKER_03 24:14

So things uh it felt so good to me when I would have small wins. It really, really helped. And it felt like it was shifting. Things, even a little bit, that was really good. So, you know, I'd feel so horrified for my daughter. It was so sad. Like her, the level of trauma was just awful. But then, you know, your sibling series of podcasts was just so helpful because I was thinking, that's what my daughter's going through. I can see that. And then there were practical steps that I could do for her. Um, and one of the best strategies was um from your masterclass scaffolding, helping your kids find their true voice. I know that's not exactly what it's called. But um, for my son, who's gifted and articulate, very can communicate very easily, but I did realize he is not able to express his needs and he's not able to get his needs met.

SPEAKER_02 25:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:24

Uh, so that that one really, really helped, and it did shift things, and that felt amazing to me because it was something that was helping, and it helped him. Then there was there were less less moments of tipping over into dysregulation. Maybe not much to start with, but I mean, now we're really in a different place. So it definitely worked.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

Well, it sounds like you were also really able to notice tiny pieces of progress.

SPEAKER_03 25:56

Yes. Um, definitely I wasn't expecting things to get 50% better by next week. It just wasn't gonna happen. I knew it was a long game and I was prepared to do that. But it really helped when things shifted even a tiny bit because I thought doable, this can happen. He can heal from this.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Yeah, I really feel like I we kind of keep coming back to this, like this trust that you had that he you, he who you knew was precious and amazing and wonderful, that he was there. And you believed that he was still there and wanted and and kept seeking him, right? Kept seeking that part of him and uh trying to give him some like skills or tools that might help him like become that part of him.

SPEAKER_03 26:52

It did it does help to have anything or anyone that is thinking that as well. So when I read your book, I can see hope there. When we finally got proper medical care for him, their belief that things would get better really, really helped. So it does help to have things, resources, or people in your life who are thinking this is hard, but we'll get through it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

You're making me remember a practitioner I personally had a long time ago, like probably well over a decade ago, who said to me, Listen, I'm really good at my job and we're gonna figure this out. Like you're gonna feel better. And it was bordering on arrogant, but it felt so relieving. Like I felt so much relief in her what felt like really authentic confidence. You know, it was like coming from her experience and the work that she'd done in the past, right? That's like, I don't know when we'll figure it out, but stick with me and we'll figure this out together. And for me, how um how anchoring that was, that it makes perfect sense that our kids who don't have quite the same level of you know cognition or comprehension in the world, but like if we can hold on to that truth for them, right? That essentially this this truth of like, we'll figure this out, we'll figure this out, we'll figure this out. Like, of course, that can feel really grounding.

SPEAKER_03 28:31

Yeah, I was mentioning to you before about because my son that helped as well. I think that you know, after these episodes, he he would just be absolutely devastated. It was awful, like awful. Um and he would say, What if I never stop hurting my family? What if this never stops happening? And I would say to him, you know, you it you will, things will get better. And he would say, They they won't. I don't believe you. And I I said, I'll believe for you. That's okay. I'll I will believe for you, and that will be enough. Um, so I think I hope that he felt that, that he knew that I believed in him and helped him get through.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

It's really remarkable that he could articulate that, that he could actually, he could connect with that fear of his, right? Of like, what if I never get better? I think having the history that I have with working with kids with primarily really significant attachment trauma, that they've actually kind of lost the connection to the part of themselves that could articulate that fear. What if I never get better? And so I know there's probably a lot of folks listening who are like, oh my gosh, my kid never shows remorse, or would never say something like, What if I never get better? And I I want to just kind of jump in and say, like, those are the kids that I know the best. And I actually really believe that they have that terror inside of them as well. They've just really lost the ability to connect with it and then articulate it like your son could.

SPEAKER_03 30:15

Yeah, well, that's absolutely true. And one of my older sons, quite similar profile, different issues. He never showed remorse ever. Yeah. But also, I was different back then. I didn't have those tools. So I would be saying, you cannot behave like that. It's unacceptable. Yes. I didn't give him space. Yeah. Whereas with my younger son, I don't ever do that because it's pointless. And it just, to me, I could see that it then, you know, things would just step up and step up. Then you're in a conflict. So one of the strategies, I never, I'm never in conflict with my son. It's completely pointless. It's not going to do anything. So I I mean, I never reprimand him or anything like that. And he always apologizes because he's had that space. I know that because I've experienced the two different ways. And I know which one's more effective, you know, is wait for a good moment and then have a bit of a chat about it. But I wasn't even able to do that in the early years. Of course. One of the things I've I like using metaphors and thinking about things like that. And I just sort of thought, I'm in charge of a nuclear reactor. I have to look at data all the time, all the time. So, you know, every single day I would think, what's happened here? What could help? What did I notice? And so it was very noticeable that if I didn't say anything at all, um, he would apologize and we could have a chat about it when he was feeling good.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

I've been able to connect with some other club members on this on this one-on-one level as well. And I am absolutely feeling this big theme of how that core commitment to I know he's in there, or I know they're in there. I know that this isn't about you can't behave this way. I know this isn't about XYZ strategy, and with that core commitment, it sounds like there's this permission given to yourself to just be.

SPEAKER_03 32:35

Yeah, definitely. Um, and then there's space, there's space for things to come out. There's space, there's permission to, I mean, like I always felt like my son, I gave him permission to to feel all his feelings. That that's true. So, and I I would I would really notice what his strengths were. And I would in subtle ways help him realize that those were his strengths. So, one of them is that he has this amazing ability to reflect that I don't see in a lot of grown men. Um, he's you know, he's he's able to talk, he knows a lot about his brain because I've I've taught him that in an indirect way by talking about my own brain. Um and so, you know, that's been a real strength of his. And I've always thought this will carry him through. He'll be okay because of that. Whenever I noticed his strength, I thought, you know, this will be fine. He'll be okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

Oh, I really love that. Say a little bit more about how it helped him, and it sounds like your daughter as well, to really um help them understand what was happening for him and what was happening in his brain and in his nervous system. And that, yeah, you didn't just sit down one day and like pull out a worksheet and say, Let me teach you about your brain.

SPEAKER_03 34:57

Well, yeah. So I knew that I couldn't do that because um he, yeah, I would find out very quickly that uh I mean, when he was home from school, I worked out pretty quickly that I wasn't gonna be teaching him homeschool. No way, and it didn't happen. Yeah, he didn't do any formal schoolwork for three years. Um but there was a way I could do it by modeling it myself in little bits and pieces. So I would say, Oh, you know, my my possum brain is just really there today. So, you know, I I know I need to get my tea now. And over time that became him being tuned into me. So he would sometimes say, Do you need to go and have a tea? And I would be like, Yes, this is him being really kind. It was great. Um, but also I could see the terror for him of thinking this is who I really am. Yeah, and I needed to show him that that wasn't true, and I knew he's really gifted. I knew I could I could use his intellect through that process. So I taught him about the nervous system. So he understood this is faulty, it's not my fault. My nervous system is faulty and it can get better. So that was that that helped him build that belief. And then for my daughter as well, she was resistant. Um, you know, she was pretty resentful of him over time, but there would be these brief moments where she would say, Yeah, I do love him and I understand, and I I I hate what he's going through. So that helped her find her compassion.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

A hundred percent. And I I think the siblings journey is such a a tragic piece of the families that I work with. It's this reality of when you have a very ill family member, and whether it's like Pan Panda's ill or you just have an exceptionally dysregulated kid for some different reason, right? When you have a very ill family member who has a lot of needs and needs a lot of support, other family members are going to suffer because of that. And there's just some, I think, truth and reality to that, right? In a family, when somebody has a huge health crisis, the other family members suffer. And that's awful.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

That isolation that they feel as well. Like my daughter would she had no one, yeah, no friends at all who understood. And she would try and tell them, and they would say, Yeah, my brother is so annoying as well.

unknown 37:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:46

So that was hard. But she did have school who understood, and she could go and rest in the well-being room and things like that. So that helped. But yeah, she felt very isolated, bewildered, and yeah, that that was heartbreaking to see. So it's nice now because they are building their relationship and enjoying some time together.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

You said something about your son. I do want to like circle back to you because it just really hit me that this feeling you had that he just believed he was a terrible person and how desperately you wanted to help him. Like you believed it was so important for him to understand that that wasn't true.

SPEAKER_03 38:31

Well, I I also had my own experiences with that because you know, similar, I'm neurodivergent as well, and just had a very hard time as a young person. So once I read information on the nervous system and understood that, I felt really sad for that young person who believed she was a bad person and had that reflected in her relationships. So I didn't want him to feel that. I wanted him, you know, knowledge and information made sense to me. And I thought if he has that as well, then he can separate his real self from these things that are happening to him. That's not his fault.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

That is like one million percent true. And like I believe so passionately in what you also just said that like if we can find any way to help kids understand, like, get as creative as you need to be. Because I understand they're not sitting down with a pen and paper and saying, Yes, please teach me all about this, right? Any way we can figure out to just put little droplets about the nervous system, about behavior. So they can start to see, oh, this isn't who I am at my core.

SPEAKER_03 39:49

Yeah. And it does work and it and it can take a long time. But you know, what I was saying before about looking at the data and noticing things, I realized I had a baseline of him wanting to not be in the world anymore. That was where we started because of how much shame he felt, like how much he was marinating in shame. And then over time that shifted. So I knew that he was starting to sort of integrate that belief about himself. Um, and we we, you know, he's just, I I I really don't hear it anymore at all, and never any thoughts of self-harm or not wanting to be here. It just whereas before that was every day. So he it does work, it might take a long time, but it will work eventually. And it's life-saving. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it's sort of like a bit of a life raft, you know, something to hold on to for that young person or the person you're trying to support.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

What do you think? I'm imagining the the listener who's like, wow, this mom, like this person's really got it figured out, right? Like, I wish I could like stay grounded in these beliefs, like like this mom is. But I'm also hearing you say, like, that's not been your story all along, right?

SPEAKER_03 41:19

Absolutely not. What and even my kids said to me, sometimes one of my boys who's 24 said, But you're the most patient person I know. I said, Well, uh that didn't, I wasn't always. I've cultivated that. You can too.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Yes, yes. Again, there's just so much hope there. You can too. And so I hope that that's what folks who are hearing you talk now and also thinking what your older son is thinking, like, oh, you're just the most patient person in the world, or whatever, you know, that there they can maybe hold on to the truth that, like, well, you worked for that.

SPEAKER_03 41:57

Absolutely. It wasn't you. Yeah, it's it's it you can't decide to you know, to be calm or to know what to do in those moments. It's a practice and it's work and it's every day, and it's being a friend to yourself and uh all of the things, like even learning about psychological boundaries was just a game changer for me, an absolute game changer. Because, you know, I'd hear about boundaries and I'd think I can't put in boundaries with this. There's no way, there's not one boundary I can put in with him, but I could put in psychological boundaries. So every time I felt like I don't know what to do, I'd just bring it back to myself. What can I do to teach myself? What can I do to help myself? And then things flow from there.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

I think when we're in situations like you're describing yourself to have been in, and that when we're forced, there's no alternative but to come face to face with this truth. That's true for all of us, is that we'd have control over nothing except maybe a little bit over ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 43:07

Correct. And that really helps.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

Yes. And it is, it's one of those like core, frankly, core universal truths. But it is the families that I've worked with in these kinds of circumstances are the ones who are really able to like be with that truth.

SPEAKER_03 43:27

Yeah. And then and the radical acceptance, it's a hard one. Yeah, I don't want to accept I'm in this position. This is awful. I don't want to be in this position. But if you can practice radical acceptance, then that's when you see some strategies. That's when you see a way forward. I don't think I think if you're fighting against that reality, I don't I don't think you can see those things.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

Yeah. This has just been phenomenal. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 44:02

Yeah, I've really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Thank you for getting up early. You're on the other side of the world, so it's early, early morning for you and starting your day off this way. And oh, also I guess it's the weekend for you too. Yes, it is that we were looking thinking about that. But I mean, this has been inspiring for me. And I'm I'm always really cautious about telling the parents I work with about how inspirational they are. But you know, I just think it's it's like I'm not inspirational, I'm just like trying to survive. So I want you to know that I see both truths, but even in my circumstance, it's easy for me to forget how some of these core pieces are so crucial. And it's helpful for me to keep like reorienting back to um, you know, because people often are saying, like, just tell me what to do, just tell me what to do, give me skills. And again, I get that, and I try really hard to give people a lot of skills. And the most important thing really is finding a way to believe that people are good, like that your son is good, you know, that when people are regulated and connected and they're experiencing felt safety, their true, brilliant, wonderful self who's not perfect, you know, gets to shine through. And that that is such a core, core, core part of this journey that is really helping people like stay the course. And that helps remind me to stay the course. Um just keep teaching that, keep teaching that, keep giving people experiences to to connect with that truth. So I'm grateful for that.

SPEAKER_03 45:50

That's what I would say is it's hard when perhaps you haven't started any of these processes, perhaps you haven't done any, and you're in an awful situation, and it just seems like too hard work. But what you're experiencing is too hard work. So if you just keep it small and just keep practicing, keep practicing, it it does all integrate and then changes do happen. You can't help but happen.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

Yeah. Yeah. No idea about the timeline, but I agree with you. You can't help but have it happen. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. So glad you reached out, and I'm so glad that we were able to find this time because I am I'm just so aware of people needing to like share in our hope. Like I believe in kind of this like almost like global window of tolerance.

SPEAKER_03 46:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

That energetically we're kind of all connected. And those of us that can offer some regulation to that window of tolerance, right? Like you've offered here in this last hour, then the folks who are feeling like I've got nothing. I'm hopeless. I don't, you know, like that, they're in that terrible, terrible place, maybe can sort of lean in to this like that moment. Yeah. Thank you. This has been really lovely.