EP 265: Nothing Changed & Everything Changed - A mom interview

A single mom who adopted boy-girl twins through foster care shares about her slow, almost invisible journey from survival mode to genuinely delighting in her now-13-year-old kids. Nothing shifted in one big moment.  Yet somehow, everything changed.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• Why the shift from "I have to fix this right now" to "I can just be with you in this" is the thing that changes everything — for your kids and for you
• How letting go of performing shame (in school meetings, with professionals, for society) freed up the energy to actually parent
• Why the biggest leaps — academic, emotional, social — consistently happened during the stretches when they stopped trying to fix anything and just existed together

Read the full transcript at: RobynGobbel.com/everythingchanged

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:07

I know. Let's take a break from the bathroom. You're on the baffling behavior.

SPEAKER_03 0:19

Welcome, welcome everybody. Back to another episode of The Baffling Behavior Show. It is me, Robin Gobel, your host, and today I am so honored to bring to you another interview of a parent of children with a vulnerable nervous system and big baffling behaviors. This parent was so generous with their time. And what I think you'll find most inspiring about spending the next hour or so with me and this parent is that we are not downplaying or pretending that the really, really tough, some dangerous, very baffling behaviors aren't all of those things, right? We're not downplaying the challenges here. And this parent has found a way for that to be true, as well as it to be true that she delights in her kiddos, finds them so super fun, and enjoys being their parent. And it is my hope that this episode can remind your nervous system that it can be possible for both to be true. I, of course, never want to invite your nervous system into a sense of shame. And there's always a risk of that when offering up these kinds of conversations. And so I just want to be very clear that that is, of course, not my intention. My hope is that your nervous system can hear this as possible. Not that we're trying to rush arriving there because that would be impossible. But that it is possible for both to be true. When our nervous system holds on to something as possible, it makes it more likely that we'll be able to eventually hang out in the place of both and possible hope. Those are some experiences that can keep us from crashing super far down the possum pathway. If you knew this parrot in real life, you would think she was an absolute blast. And I am just so excited, so honored for you to meet this parent and for this parent to, in a way, get to spend some time with y'all. I'm so grateful that you volunteered to come on the podcast. Thank you, thank you, thank you, and to spend this time with me this morning. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

Yeah. Before we dive in, it can be helpful for folks listening to just have a little bit of information about you and your story.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

I'm uh a single mom. I adopted through foster care. I chose to be a single mom. I was at a point where I'm like, this is the main thing I want in my life. I want to be a parent. Um, so it felt kind of inevitable for me. Um and I ended up um with ended up adopting my first placement. So I have um boy girl twins. They came to me at 15 months, um, and they are now currently 13.

SPEAKER_03 3:58

13-year-old twins.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

Yes. Which is boy girl twins. Yes, which is an adventure in the like best of times.

SPEAKER_03 4:10

And I know like not every moment in your family could be classified as best of times. That's correct. That's correct. Yes. One of the things that folks listening have been telling me that they've they're finding really helpful. And one of the reasons I even came into the club and said, you know, is anybody interested in in coming on the podcast? Was um being able to hear from families who have been so deep, I'll just say like in the trenches. Like things are bad, right? Behaviors are feel out of control, you're not sure what to do, you're under resourced, no community, all you know, all the things. And that there's the possibility of kind of moving through that. Because when you're in the middle of it, it really can feel like we will be here forever. Nothing will ever change.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 5:09

And absolutely also am noticing how the definition of change, you know, shifts for folks. And that things don't have to be like all of a sudden, you know, that we're we're existing like a neurotypical family would, right? Like that's not what we're aiming for necessarily, but there can still be a lot of hope.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 5:33

And I feel like, yeah, I feel like from what I've known about you for a couple years now, that that describes your family.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

I think that's really accurate. Yeah. Um, and it's it's hard for me because I know in my mind, like I can remember more intellectually now, which I guess is also kind of progress because it was very traumatic for a long time.

SPEAKER_03 5:59

Yeah, sometimes it used to feel like just flooding of feelings, and now you're feeling a little kind of distanced from the feelings, but can think about it.

unknown 6:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Yeah, like I'm like reflecting back and I'm like, okay, like I consciously know that I felt uh more miserable than I've ever felt in my entire life.

SPEAKER_05 6:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Um, and but I'm not there now. Like I can't, which is great. Um, but I also want to remember because I want to feel the contrast. Like I and I I'm so grateful, like looking back, but like I had two very, very they still are. I they're still very, very intense. Yes. Um, but two like very, very intense young children, um, completely alone with like no support, really. My family was completely overwhelmed. Um, professionals were completely overwhelmed. And so it's all, it's all on me, like logistically, because I'm a single mom. Um, but it's also all on me everywhere we go looking for, you know, quote, help or or support is a lot of professionals looking at me like, what do you, what do you do when this happens? Because like we're going to, you know, the people that they're sending us to that are supposed to help us, speech therapists, um, occupational therapists, you know, the pediatrician, just because we we know her. And she's lovely, but that's not the point. But like my child is under a table, and the speech therapist is saying, Well, I can't evaluate her. Like, what do you do? What do you do when she gets under a table? And I'm like, Well, she doesn't get under a table at my house because I'm not trying to do a speech evaluation. Like, but it's like anywhere we go in public became a scene. And my whole thing is the way I was raised, and and there's problems with that, but the way I was socialized was like you don't inconvenience anybody, you know, you follow the social scripts, you just be normal, like just blend in and like don't don't be the one. You know what I mean? Like just I just want to be like the background person. Like I'm not here to inconvenience, and and there's that like the bad part of that is like, yeah, you were socialized this way. Then like the the other part is like, I really don't want to inconvenience everybody. Like I want everyone to have a nice time. We're just at the grocery store. We're trying, we're all just trying to get through the day. I don't want to be the reason. That's hard. Um, but everywhere we went was was a was a whole a whole kerfluffle.

SPEAKER_05 8:18

Um I love that word.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

I don't know what else to call it. Like it was like, you know, like my child is screaming and she's like on the floor. And at one point she just took off on a target, and I literally stood there like can't some screaming, like, can somebody help me because I have another child that's gonna run in the other direction. Um, and they're both just just extremely, extremely sensory seeking. They were they were young kids, they were extremely sensory seeking and just rough on things, not maliciously, not intentionally, but it's like other people don't seem to be experiencing this. Like other people aren't just like they can't turn their back or something's gonna get broken, or they can't turn their back or their child's gonna be out the door and like down the street. Um, and then even as they got older, dealing more with like um, you know, just the the the the somewhat typical twin aggression and fighting, but also beyond typical um to where it was like and then it was at a point where like it was a constant like everything was fear. I was terrified, I was miserable. Everyone that was speaking to me, like was fear-based, and it was very much um, what are you gonna do when they get older? This can't go on, you know, like this this isn't allowed. Like, okay, but it's still happening.

SPEAKER_03 9:50

I love that one. That's why don't I remember having a a professional mentor be like, you can't allow that. I'm like, so do you have a suggestion for that beyond like bungee chords? Like, I I what does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Right? Like it's just it's like an it's a meaningless phrase, and I know the intent is maybe good, but all it does is like pile on more shame and it piles on more stress, right? And it piles on more fear, and then I'm like in a worse place to deal with everything because it's like, oh my gosh, like what do I do when they turn 13? What do I do when they're teenagers? Because you just picture this moment continuing on forever and now they're bigger. Um, and and that's a horrible way to live. And I look back and I couldn't have at the time because I feel like now like and I can't even, this is what's so hard for me. I can't even there's no one thing that changed. Like there is no one thing that changed, like it was so gradual. Um we're in like such a good place now, emotionally and mentally, and it maybe wouldn't always look like that from the outside, but that's for me, like that's how I feel. Um they are still at times like having very big emotional reactions to things in public that happened last week, and they're both sobbing. Um and I'm just like I don't want to say amused in the sense of like detached, but like a healthy level of detached. Like this is fine. Um, I can handle this. Like, I feel like I can handle this. Like, this is just this is what it is. We had a good night, and now everyone's having feelings all over the sidewalk. And my capacity has like widened so much that it actually is like incomprehensible to me sometimes. Um, because I could not have imagined in those like harder, like younger years when like everything set me off. I could not have imagined like being able to like tolerate seems kind of tolerate doesn't seem like the best word, but being able to actually tolerate and thrive and be okay within some of what goes on. And I think like the biggest thing for us is it's not um like it's not all perfect.

SPEAKER_05 12:21

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

We didn't like fix X, Y, Z. We had seen like tons and tons and tons of improvement. Um, things that were very much like the behaviors that people would say, like, oh my gosh, this has to stop. This can't be allowed. What are you gonna do when they're 13, 14 and still like physically getting in your face or physically attacking each other and they're as big as you are? Like, what are you gonna do? It doesn't happen with the same regularity. Um and it's just been this like very, very slow, almost like you don't notice it when it's happening process of like, okay, so that decreased from like it's not multiple times a day. Okay, so it's like just multiple times a week. Okay, now it's like maybe once a week. Now it's like maybe every few weeks, and like literally now, like it's a one-off. And and I'm so grateful to be here, but it's like all those fears I had of like, oh my gosh, what are you gonna do when they're teenagers have like completely not proven true. Um, I love this age. I am obsessed with this age, they are so much fun. This age is so demanding, literally like more intensive parenting than when they were in elementary, but it is genuinely so much fun.

SPEAKER_03 13:46

Um it is really clear to me how much you just delight and your kids, right? As you're talking about them and not in a way that's like you know, like cherry picking the best parts of your day, but just like true, genuine delight and like who they are as humans on the planet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

I'm so glad because they're like the coolest people, they really are. I just adore them, they're so funny, and I think that was one of the shifts.

SPEAKER_02 14:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Um, and I you can say it how you say it, but like how changing how we see people change is that it changes people? Yep. And I being able to see them more and more as like this is a child that is literally doing their very best. Like, and they are, they're genuinely kind, like so stunningly kind, genuinely empathetic, like so so sweet. Um, and being able to see that and like see as this is like a this is literally just they don't have the skills to do better right now. Like they they really don't, and they would if they could, but they can't. Um, and the more I see them that way, it's like this like it just keep perpetuates itself. And then I like see them more and more that way, and I have more compassion for them, and they're just then they're I don't want to say living up to, but like then that's what comes out, honestly. No, there's like like that's and I I feel like I feel uncomfortable like with just the general like societal need to credit parents with how your kids act, because I think like either way, like for good or bad, right? Like you see a kid acting nice, and it's like, oh, they must have great parents. You see a kid acting poorly, and it's like parents aren't parenting, and it's like that's still like that's an individual human being. Like they have they have free will, they have autonomy, and so like all of that credit like to them and like their growth and their progress, I feel like that's them, like that's who they are. And if anything, like if I've done anything, I hope the thing I've done is create a situation where they feel safe enough to express that.

SPEAKER_03 16:05

Um 100%. I've said I've thought that a lot. My parenting journey has been a lot different than a lot of y'all's, but I've said that a lot because people do want to say, like, oh, you you're such a great parent, or like, I don't know what you're doing, but clearly you're doing it well. You know, they say things like that, which it does have that message of good parenting equals good kids, bad parenting equals bad kids, which is a very tightly held cultural belief we have. I think it helps us feel like we're actually in control when we're not. But it's like, you know, this if I've done anything well as a parent, what I've been able to do best is hope, I don't know, hopefully. And my son edits my podcast, so this will be interesting to hear what he thinks. Is I feel like the best thing I've tried to do is as much as possible, and I'm not successful at all the time, just kind of get out of his way. Yeah, and let him be him. Yeah. Because he's inherently amazing, right? Like everyone else. Right. So if I can just sort of like get out of his way, give him a structure, blah, blah, blah. Obviously, parent, but like just kind of get out of his way and just let his awesomeness kind of shine through and maybe redefining what we came into adulthood believing was awesome. Which is you said at the beginning, you talked about that feeling of like going to the grocery store and um, you know, being so kind of wound up about like, I don't want to inconvenience other people. But at the same time, being like, well, you know, as as we operate as like social beings in a well-function, well-functioning-ish society, there is an aspect to like being aware of your impact on other people, of course. But I feel like what I heard you say is like holding that as true, that's uh that is a part of what helps society function, but with also being able to not totally collapse into shame if something does happen that you know is quote unquote inconveniencing other people. Like it just has to be okay. Yeah. And it sounds like you've made a really big shift. And I do watch you in in the forum. I think you're kind of one of our leaders in this of just like really believing that who your kids are is okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

I hope so. Yeah. I hope so. Because I I think it is, and I hope they I hope they get that from me. Um because even with very well-intentioned parents, I don't think I was, you know, I that wasn't how a lot of people like in our generation were raised. And and and I've tried to be really, really like proactive about that, especially as they're getting older and we can have like more conversations. Like, this isn't harming anybody. This is fine. You know, we have like there's firm boundaries, like you're not gonna harm yourself or others, but like if it's not, if it's not harming you, you do you. And I and I've actually like sat them down and been like, you know what, I don't want to live in a house. This is really like this is kind of minutia, but like I don't want to live in a house where we're making fun of what someone else likes. You know, like my daughter likes certain types of video games or you know, the way she plays like Minecraft or role plays on Minecraft. Okay, that's what she likes. Okay. My son likes other different types of video games, and they make fun of my music taste. And I've actually like come down pretty hard on that and been like, you know what, we're not we're not doing this. Like, I don't want to grow up on a house like this. We don't make fun of someone else's interests. If it's not harming anybody, like just let them be. Um, everyone's allowed to like different things. Like it feels so elementary, but I feel like no one's like explicitly laying that out so often. It's like everyone's allowed to like different things.

SPEAKER_03 19:57

Yeah, we're all allowed to be our own unique self. You can be yourself and like be that fully. Yeah. Yeah. This this could be a question that feels like, oh, I have no idea the answer to that, which would be a completely fine answer. But do you have any thoughts on like how you kind of made that shift? Because it does tie us up in knots, and it has me too at times. Like, and especially as a a professional who supports parents, you know, I used to be kind of hyper aware of like my own child's behavior. What are people thinking of me because of that? And I had to work really consciously to let that go, right? Like those things aren't related. It's not his job to enforce anything about me, right? And it was hard, so hard. It is. You have any reflections on like what were some of the things that helped you kind of make those shifts?

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Oh, that's so tough. I can say, and I don't know, maybe that I started listening to your podcast, which I am not a podcast person. And I would say I started listening to it um, I don't know, two to three years ago. Like I had read your book, I had followed you online for ages. Yeah. And I would walk the dog and listen to the podcast. And I can remember in my mind, like certain things you said are tied to certain locations. And this is very unique to me. Like it was like a very like visceral thing. But it's almost like I don't know, if listening to it did something different. Something different happened, like it it hit in a different way. Um and I think a lot of it for me is like I don't I I don't like saying working on because it feels like so active. Like I have to do this, because that was where I was stuck for so long. Like you have to fix this and you have to do better. And and and then, but you're also consistently giving not that message, um, which I think was what I needed. And I think at one point you said something. About like how that urge to like fix this thing, like I have to fix this thing right now, with like protection mode. And I think that one like really hit hard because that was like the missing piece for me. Was like I was always like, I have to fix this, and I just haven't found the right tool and I'm failing and I'm da-da-da-da-da. Um, that was one piece because that like really, really clicked for me. Um, and I think from there, like it was more like changing myself, like internally. That's where I like hesitate to say, like working on, but it was like coming, like recognizing and like thinking about like my own stuff, my own like history of like shame and parenting. And what does a good parent look like? And my need to feel like I'm always getting honors and everything, like I'm gonna get an A plus and this, and I'm gonna get an A plus and this. And like I'd always been able to do that until I had kids, and then I couldn't control them anymore. And and so the the image people got of me was one thing where I'm like, I can still meet all the requirements and I'll you know, like I'm an honor student and I'm doing great. And then it was like then you meet my kids, and my kids are like completely off the rails, yeah. And especially like for me, like I started like substitute teaching. So I'm like in their school, like working in their district, and also like showing up as like the parent that like volunteers, and it's like I want to get an A plus in being a parent, and then it's like I I can't like I this doesn't fit. We don't fit what most people think of when they think of an involved parent. We don't fit what most people think of when they think of a parent that works at the school because they always have, you know, not always, but usually have, you know, the the kids that are like the star students. And I mean, I'm just a sub, but like in any, like the parents that they're interacting with, you know, regularly. And I literally like I I don't know exactly what specifically like helped in that regard, but it's like just constantly like fighting that shame and even just like and maybe not fighting, but like recognizing it for what it is and and the pressure because I I felt like for so many times in meetings with the school or meetings with teachers, like they want you to perform that shame. Like, oh, your child hit somebody, and they want you to be like, it feels like they want you to be like groveling and oh my gosh, and all that's not okay. And like I just I don't want to do penance anymore. Like I can't do it. It feels like it's such a waste of our time, um, especially as I as I got more confident in parenting my kids and being genuinely a good parent to my kids, not a good parent in the eyes of society, maybe, but like a good parent to the children I have in front of me. Um and so once I hit that point, it's like you can't tell me anything. And it feels a little bit scary because it's like, God, I can be insufferable. Like you can't tell me anything. Um, because I've seen it. Because I've seen what happens when I don't approach my kids punitively, because I've seen what happens when my first instinct, and it took a lot of repetition to make it like muscle memory and instinct, but when my first instinct is comfort and not like to come at my kids, you know, like, why did you do that? Um, my daughter's so much like me. And I had this moment where it was just like, what would I have needed in that moment? And it was like, I needed a hug. Like I needed someone to be like, it's gonna be okay. Like, we'll and I hug her, and she she's the type, like, if you hug her, she just melts. I'm the same way. Like, she's just sobbing. Um, and the more I see that, like I've seen the growth in my kids, and I've I've had that growth in me where I'm just like, I'm not wasting my time on all of this. Like, oh, I'm so sorry. Like, I am sorry. I don't want my child to hit anybody. Like, that's truly terrible. But let's also consider the other factors. Let's consider, you know, there's so many things happening. And and at the end of the day, what are we accomplishing by me sitting in a meeting, being like feeling bad about myself and feeling shame and like apologizing to people who aren't ever gonna be as invested as I am, um, who haven't seen the growth I have. And and like just kind of the are you really gonna sit here as an adult and I have to prove to you that I think it's not okay for my kid to hit somebody.

unknown 26:33

Right.

SPEAKER_05 26:34

Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

Like, I'm just obviously it's not okay. Okay, so what are we doing?

SPEAKER_03 26:40

I mean, same with our kids, right? Like, our kids know that it's not okay. That's not the problem.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

It's not the problem, it's not the problem. Like, when my kids are like actually regulated, and like I want to my like in their right mind, in their owl brain, yeah, is the nice way to say that. Like when they're there, yeah, they know all that. Of course, they know all of that, they know better than I do. Like, they say the most stunning, insightful, like self-aware things. Um, and in when it's not that moment, like they literally can't access that. So, what are we doing? Like, same for me. I mean, same for all of us.

SPEAKER_03 27:20

Like, but a big theme that I'm I feel like I'm hearing from you is to tell me if I'm getting this right. And I'm, you know, of course, can't help but combine it with all other things I know about you outside this these moments, is so much of what has helped you be able to just really like see your kids for who they are and be cool with that, is that you've had to do that work for yourself. Like be cool with who you really are. Yeah. And that you maybe came to adulthood with a lot of messages of like who you are in your natural state. Yeah. And just all of your eunus.

unknown 27:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:04

And you've had to really work on finding a way to be like, well, not only is that okay, but it's pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

Mm-hmm. Just a lot of self-doubt.

unknown 28:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

And a lot of like not trusting yourself and kind of, you know, you should listen to other people too. And I think that was like another part of it was like being okay with me without that, without needing to have the validation like across the board. And also being okay with like my parenting and my family without always like looking to somebody else. Um, and just being like really, really selective in then who who I look to. Like, does this resonate with what I feel works for us? Does this resonate with like what else I've heard?

SPEAKER_03 28:57

Um, yeah, like so, really kind of, and I'm I'm assuming that this wasn't the super active process. You didn't wake up every morning and be like, I'm gonna practice, staying true to my inner wisdom. But that along the way, that is exactly what you're doing. A lot of intentionality around believing or experimenting with can I believe that my instincts are okay, even if they end up being like not quote unquote okay in the situation. Like, whoops, that got that one wrong. But like, it's still okay to get things wrong. It's still okay to like trust myself and believe that I can be good and I can really relate to this one. I'm a good person without the A plus.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

I mean the A plus is cool, like I'll try it.

SPEAKER_03 29:57

Just keep keep them coming. And yeah, I can be okay if I don't get that A plus from a place that is actually trying to measure something like that.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a that's a huge thing for me. That's a huge thing for me. Yeah, because I always I always had the A plus. I always and so that was the expectation. That was like this is who you are. Yeah. And when you've been like not even like materially societally like successful, but like just generally like people thought well of you, and you know, of course, of course you're gonna be fine. Of course you did that well, like then to not do something it and to potentially fail at it is not remotely safe. And to to get to a point where that's okay, and I can be okay with that is yeah, it was me. It was very much like it was me. It wasn't anything that I did to my kids, they're the same kids they've always been.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

They're the same kids they've always been, and also and it's been me like going through my stuff and just like honestly like slowing down and losing that like frenetic need to change everything. And then you mentioned like evaluation and like constantly evaluating and realizing that like stripped all the joy from our life entirely. Like it's all gone. There was no room for joy because it was like you have to fix this, you have to fix this thing, and then the minute you fix one thing, it's like okay, well, on to the next. Um, which I see with my kids in school, and I just feel like um, oh my gosh, can we rest? Like, can we just do this? Right, because they're they're so cool. And and the biggest leaps that they've had developmentally, educationally, emotionally, the biggest leaps that they've had have been consistently when we're not trying to do anything.

SPEAKER_03 32:00

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

When we're just like hanging out, and it would be academic stuff, it would be like you know, Christmas or like winter break. Um, and then it would be like a big academic explosion. But it was also just like emotionally, socially, it would be like summertime. And I would, and every every summer I would think this. It reached a point where it was like clockwork, where every single summer I'd be like, I wonder where we'll be in August. Because I would see so much just social and emotional development, like relationally, so much growth over those summer months. And I think it was because we finally just chilled out. It wasn't like problem after problem after problem. And I in realizing like this is where I am right now, realizing like how much of a toll that took on me, even when I wasn't like consciously aware of it, because it was constantly putting me in a place to view my kids as a problem to be solved and not just someone to enjoy being with, and to like so I um I had a moment with my son, a couple moments. I where like we went, I think we went to the store or something, like he had a doctor's appointment, and it would like cause me like grief that it was. I have a much younger brother, so I was 15 when he was born, he was adopted. And growing up, like I'd be in college, he'd be, you know, like up in elementary, whatever. Like we'd hang out, we'd go out to eat, and it was just fun. We're just having fun, you know, we'd joke, we'd laugh, whatever. And it like made me so sad that I couldn't have that, or I felt like I couldn't have that with my son because it was like I'm always managing behavior, like I'm constantly like, oh my gosh, don't touch that. Oh my gosh, come over here. Can you listen? Can you do this? And I had like a couple rare days where I'm like, wait a minute, that felt like hanging out with my brother. That felt really good. Like this is what it should feel like. And almost like second guessed myself, like, wait, like, but you're saying like parenting shouldn't feel like parenting, like parenting, like I'm like, because it felt like I wasn't parenting, it felt like we were just hanging out, and it's like, no wait, wait, what if this might be something? Like this, this makes everyone better. Like, we all feel really good. When I removed this pressure of like, you have to parent. Yeah, and parent means that you have to do XYZ tasks and you control their behavior. Yeah, you have to control them, yeah, exactly. You have to control them, control your kids, like you have to be parenting. And it was like, wait, no, I don't have to do that actually. Like, I I want to everyone safe. I mean, keep everyone safe. Absolutely. Um, also, please don't touch that if it's breakable. I won't, you know, like please, please don't walk in front of that car. No, but that's also just being a normal human. Like, I don't want anyone to break, I can't want anyone to walk in front of a car. Of course. Please don't do that. Of course. But to remove that pressure of like, this is what parenting looks like, and this is what you have to perform for society, versus like we're just in we're enjoying each other, we're having fun. Um, you know, and we get and and part of that's age, they're getting older. It's it's easier now. Um, and it's not as much physical supervision of like two little tiny children just like running them up. Um, but that's added, I think, a lot for our relationship is to genuinely be able to just enjoy each other and for me to slowly, slowly, slowly not be always so hyper-vigilant.

SPEAKER_03 35:38

My guess is that it's possible that your kids, because of their experiences before they became your kids. I don't know anything about what that was like, but I do know a lot about what brings kids into foster care and what happens when they're there. But your kids missed probably a lot of early developmental experiences of simply because you exist, you're amazing. You're delightful. I love being with you. You don't have to do something for me to think you're amazing, which is what babies experience often, right? Like just because you're here on the planet doing nothing, but actually causing me a lot of grief and like all of the things I have to do for you. And but you're amazing. And it's possible, maybe likely, that like that cup wasn't as full for your kids as it would have been if you had been able to know them since like their first moment on the planet. And so some part of you, probably mostly like unconsciously, just knew that like my kids need that more than they need to have their behavior managed, or they need me to teach them, don't do that, stop doing that, you know, all those kinds of things. Like there was something about your you that was able to really see. They need me to delight in them to know that their existence makes my life better.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, they they definitely missed out on a lot of that. And and in in some cases, like literally got the opposite.

SPEAKER_03 37:20

Learned the opposite, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

Um, so yeah. And I can remember when they first came to me. I mean, that was all it was because I was a new mom. Right, right. Like everything you do is amazing. And there was there was no, and maybe this is just because of the way I came to parenthood. There was no expectation on my end. It was like, oh my gosh, I just want to discover like who you are. Like not you're not in a blank slate way. Like they came with all their history and all of who they are, but it was like, I don't know you, like everything's amazing. I'm not projecting that I'm aware of, but not projecting as much because there's no like, you're a stranger to me. Like, we've never met. Like, I'm not, you know what I mean? Like, I was just like, I just want to be a parent. Let's see what happens.

SPEAKER_03 38:11

I do know what you mean, but I do think that that is really hard for a lot of folks. That curiosity of show me who you are. And it's hard for a lot of folks for different reasons. I mean, again, all of that's about our own past experiences and blah, blah, blah. It just all gets really murky and you know, all tangled up. But I I do think you're hitting on something that is for whatever reason was a little easier for you. And then how that maybe has been helpful in kind of coming to this place that you are. And I highlight that to help folks listening be curious about their own levels of curiosity, right? Like how how curious are we in having our kids really truly show us who they are as opposed to who I'm hoping they'll be. And I think that that is a hard question to ask ourselves as parents, but I think if we were honest with ourselves, I mean, I know I could be better at oh yeah, you know, allowing my kid to just show me exactly who he is as opposed to who I want him to be. Right. Yeah. And kind of coming back to that place of, you know, that again, of course, you weren't doing like prescriptively, but coming regularly kind of back to this place of show me who you are.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Yeah, and that gets harder when they're older. Yes, yes. So much harder when they're older.

SPEAKER_02 39:43

Right, when they're like 15 months. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

You're just so adorable. And and I can dress you however I want to dress you. And you always look neat and and now you're like emo.

SPEAKER_03 39:55

Um, but there's one more question I want to ask you, but I'm also cracking the clock. Are you okay for me to ask you one more thing? Yeah from a time perspective. Okay. A long time ago, like early, early on in the our time together, you talked about the difference between being kind of like detached versus being like really just fully present with your kids. So there's not this flippant, like, I don't really care what you're doing, but there's more about like, I'm here with you. And I'm not like flooded by what's happening. Yeah. I'm able to stay really here in the here and now as opposed to thinking about the future or thinking about everybody else who's watching or being consumed with my own dysregulation, which actually is what's happening when we become detached to is just a different coping mechanism, right? We're so flooded with dysregulation we disconnect. And that you're like, I'm not, I don't feel detached from them, but there is just this almost you didn't use this word, but like kind of a piece of like, well, here we are, and you're doing your thing, and it really doesn't mean anything about me. And so I can kind of just be here with you in this place that you are, which is clearly uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 41:11

Yeah. Yes. Everyone, they were they were having some emotions. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:17

So it's also be that question that you're like, oh, I have no idea. But I think it's worth just pondering and even for our listeners to ponder, like, how was that possible? Like, how do we shift from this is an emergency, and I have to stop everything to fix you, versus, huh? Well, this is interesting. Clearly, you're having a hard time, and that really has nothing to do with me, but I can be with you in this really hard time without making it about me.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

That's really, really difficult. That's really difficult. Um gosh. I mean, I I think part of it for us was over the years, like for a lot of reasons. And there's no like one, this is just what happened in our family. Like we are more physically safe than we were.

SPEAKER_03 42:20

Yes, okay.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

So um that helps. Of course it does. Like, because I over the years, like repeatedly have seen like, okay, it's not always gonna end in significant violence. Yes. Um so and again, like that was just me. And and it was me like like slowing down and honestly like realizing how many times like I'm escalating this because I feel like I have to control it.

unknown 42:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

Um like the more like the more I do it, and then and then with work, I guess, because it's not as with it's not as personal. Um, but it but it is a weird, it is a weird thing where um I have a significant capacity that I did not have in the past, and most people, a lot of people don't, and I and I don't know how to put it into words, and it's really tough. Um, because I approach like I can approach kids that aren't mine that way. And obviously, like that it's not as personal. No, of course it's not, but it is practice. It's practice. I agree. It's a lot of practice, like it's and so it's like reinforcing, and then that helps me at home um be more that way because I see it, and part of it too is with the with kids at work, it's so low level. I never had easy kids, I never had the luxury of easy kids. So then I go into a classroom and it's like a three year old crying, and literally all I do is like, wow, you were so sad. You really miss your mom. Yeah, genuinely me. It and she's like, okay, I want a color. And I'm like, wait, what? What just happened? Because I never had that. Yeah. With my kids, it would, but I also was never able to be okay with it with my kids. Because so it's I don't know if that helps anything. No answers.

SPEAKER_03 44:15

It really, I mean, if anything, I just think it's helpful to pause and reflect on the fact that these two possibilities exist. Like another possibility does exist. It actually is possible to be with somebody who's highly dysregulated and not get tangled up in it, which doesn't mean you're detached from it. Like our dysregulated people we care about need us to stay present and you know be with their experience as much as we can. It's also okay to have to touch out, but there's such a different way of being that is not just better for them, but it's so significantly better for us. I mean, it is exhausting to get tangled into someone else's dysregulation, to feel like you have to stop it, control it. It's just exhausting. Yeah. And that kind of slow shift, and it is certainly always a slow shift of being able to detach yourself from I must do something about this. This must mean something about me. This has to stop. And to move more into can I be with you in this? And probably, I'm sure you don't do that 100% of the time. And there's certain circumstances when we can't. Same. Oh, yeah, same. Same. But when we can, like what a win. Like what a win when I really can be like, yeah. So we're just gonna be here in this. And when it's over, we'll clean up.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

This is right. Yeah. This is what it is right now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah, definitely not all the time. But um and the thing is, like when I can, it and this isn't why, you know, like this isn't why I would do it. And it's not even really a conscious choice, but um, it's over faster. Yes. It's over faster. Yeah. And it's not like I'm sitting there like, but it's like it's when I'm not like rushing to the end of it, like emotionally and mentally. Like, okay, we just gotta get through this, and we gotta and no, because then there's more pressure, and then it gets like then it just that doesn't work, and then everyone's more stressed, and it's like, okay, this is what we're doing. We're crying on the sidewalk. Okay, okay. That's what's happening right now.

SPEAKER_03 46:23

Um, I know for me, which is of course different, everybody's different, but I know for me I had to have enough experiences of actually kind of surviving, like actually getting through it to help my own like implicit memory be able to like believe this will be over. Yeah, which sounds like kind of a bonker thing because it's like, well, everything eventually will be over. It's like, well, yeah, that's really easy to say when you're just sitting here chit-chatting, but when you're in the middle of it, there for me really was a sensation of this will never end. And I might actually cease to exist because of how bad it is. Like that when I could pause and be self-reflective, I'm like, well, no wonder I'm working so hard to make it be over. Yeah, yeah. And then I had to have enough experiences of really seeing like and paying attention to, because that was a missing ping thing for me. I had to really pay attention to, like, no, it actually does end. And once my own like memory networks could kind of like go down that pathway instead of like this, this sucks, and it will end. You'll be okay. Yeah. That and that just took time. Like that took repetition, that took experiences, and it did take being deliberate about noticing that ended. And I'm okay. I did have to be intentional about that. But I'm a trade, you know, I was trained as a psychotherapist and worked as a psychotherapist for a long time. So I had a lot of because it's something I was often working with my clients on too. And so I was, you know, just had a lot of opportunities to be that deliberate about it. And that really helped. And again, this wasn't super conscious. Like, if I can just remember that I'm okay. It wasn't really like that. It was really just about my implicit memory being able to, I think, touch into that truth. Then it just didn't feel quite as flooding. And then the next time it wouldn't feel quite as flooding, and then the next time. And it just, it's taken, I mean, people think that I must have all of these skills like really down pat. I'm like, no, I'm actually so bad at these skills that I've had to make it my full-time job. And that sounds funny, but it's not a joke.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

Yeah. Yeah. No. I hear that. No, but I think, yeah, like you, you have words for it, because that's I think I sit here and I'm like, I I don't know what I did. I don't know, but it is like the noticing. And I think it's, but it's not something that I was like consciously, yeah, completely consciously doing. Like, I'm going to do this, but like that is, I think, what I was doing as you name it. Like, I think that is what was happening. And then that's what gradually, you know, because I can remember where I this exactly what you said. Like, this is never gonna end. I can remember sitting in a chair in my living room between like my children's like two bedroom where their bedroom doors are, um thinking I am stuck here forever and I'm never gonna get to leave. Yeah, like literally, like that was the only moment that existed. Yeah, like I have to sit here and then that's like absolutely like terrifying.

SPEAKER_03 49:39

I mean, terrifying is not a big enough word.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

I don't even want to exist. Like, I don't even want to exist exactly because my life is only sitting in this chair keeping my children from harming each other. Yes, yeah, but it did end. That was probably five, four or five years ago now. I am no longer sitting in a chair in my living room.

SPEAKER_02 49:58

No, you're not. In this moment, you are not in a chair in your living room.

SPEAKER_00 50:02

I am not there anymore. I was ordering delivery on my phone because I was like, no, and like nobody understands this because like I have to feed my children, but I can't physically move.

unknown 50:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:15

But this has been so delightful. Yes, just so delightful.

SPEAKER_03 50:21

Do you remember when you messaged me and you we giggled about like the finding an expired coupon for Cedar Point? Yeah. Yes. And I was like, oh, I I get this lady. I get this lady. That was such a spectacular metaphor. And of course, you know, Cedar Points that well, it feels down the road. It's like probably three and a half or four hours, but it feels down the road. So it does.

SPEAKER_00 50:48

We connected over that Midwest thing. Yeah, yeah. It's all we got in the Midwest. Come on, Cedar Point. We've had our one thing.

SPEAKER_03 50:58

Sometimes we'll drive a little extra and go to King's Island because it's just a little less busy.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

There you go. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Gosh, it's been years. It's been years for both for me. I'm too old now. I don't know if I could do it. I don't know if I could do it. I was going to take my kids, especially like as things have gotten easier. Like, oh, that'd be so fun. Like, we should do that. Like, we could do that now. Um, but we went to the zoo and we rode like the teeny tiny roller coaster. I swear my son's whole life flashed before his eyes. Like he was like horrified. And I heard about it repeat, I heard about it all evening. So I'm like, maybe not.

SPEAKER_03 51:32

Maybe we won't do lots of extra vestibular input for your kid is not feel fun.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

Not at not at that level. Then he he's he has a thing where he doesn't like, and I'm actually somewhat the same way. He doesn't like like large structures, and it was wooden. So he's like, it's because it was wooden and I thought it was gonna fall down. And I'm like, okay, but uh yeah, I don't think he could, I don't think he could do it. Yeah, I I maybe we'll we'll pass on that one. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 51:58

Well then you won't have to use your expired coupon.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

I will have to use my coupon that expired in 2001.

SPEAKER_03 52:05

It really is such a delight to know you, and you're such a valuable member of the club. Such a valuable member. You've contributed so much. It's hard to imagine what it would look like without you, really, truly. So no pressure. No pressure. But we like we like it when you stick around. Thank you. I mean, thank you for like coming on the podcast, but also like doing, you know, you have some aspects of your life that make it possible for you to do this hard work and then to share about it is just so valuable. Thank you. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00 52:46

Yes, yeah, of course. You're welcome. I hope I made some amount of sense. You made tons of sense.

SPEAKER_02 52:52

Don't worry about that at all.

SPEAKER_00 52:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 52:55

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

Okay, yeah, thank you.