This week, we unravel the unseen challenges young lawyers encounter as they're just starting out and underscore the necessity of grasping the business side of law, regardless of where your legal career takes you - be it in the corporate realm, a law firm, or government service.
We also uncover the integral elements for crafting a successful legal career. We touch on critical aspects such as identifying your inherent abilities, proactive planning for your future, and the influential role of mentorship. We further share insights on discovering contentment in your legal career, comparing the lives of public defenders and corporate lawyers, the wisdom of living below your income, and setting realistic monthly income goals. This enlightening conversation promises to guide you in carving your own path in the legal field, leading to a fulfilling and successful career.
Connect with Kelly on Instagram @KellyesqU or visiting her website at kellysturmthal.com
This week, we unravel the unseen challenges young lawyers encounter as they're just starting out and underscore the necessity of grasping the business side of law, regardless of where your legal career takes you - be it in the corporate realm, a law firm, or government service.
We also uncover the integral elements for crafting a successful legal career. We touch on critical aspects such as identifying your inherent abilities, proactive planning for your future, and the influential role of mentorship. We further share insights on discovering contentment in your legal career, comparing the lives of public defenders and corporate lawyers, the wisdom of living below your income, and setting realistic monthly income goals. This enlightening conversation promises to guide you in carving your own path in the legal field, leading to a fulfilling and successful career.
Connect with Kelly on Instagram @KellyesqU or visiting her website at kellysturmthal.com
This podcast is brought to you by Spotlight Branding. Whether your firm only gets a few referrals or it's 100% of your business, you have the opportunity to double your referrals through educational, informative content. The pros at Spotlight Branding can help you create that content through blogging videos, email newsletters and more All designed to help you increase your referrals and attract the kinds of clients you want to work with. Visit spotlightbrandingcom slash pod to learn more. That's spotlightbrandingcom slash pod.
Speaker 2:This is Center Stage putting your firm in the spotlight by highlighting business owners and other industry experts to help take your firm to the next level. Hey, everyone, and welcome to Center Stage. I'm your host, john Henson, and I need to make sure that I remember how to do all of this because, even though in your world we've been having episodes come out every week but it has probably been a month or two since I have recorded an episode I've been on Paternity, been just working ahead and then trying to not fall asleep because, that's how newborns are, so.
Speaker 3:Signing chapter.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly. So hopefully this will be a smooth recording and I can get back into the groove of things. But this week we are talking, focusing really on a group that maybe hasn't gotten as much attention on this show, and that's younger lawyers, or maybe those who are going out on their own for the first time, and my guest this week has done a lot of work with this specific demographic. She's helped a lot of these lawyers achieve financial empowerment, help them get more family time and just live just an overall happier life, and that is Kelly Sternthal. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you, thank you and as you are living life as well with your family, that's growing. Congratulations again and thanks for having me, yeah absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is gonna be one of those episodes where I can probably learn a few things as well, even though I am not a lawyer, but I can probably still get a lot of that. And so before we jump in, tell us a little bit about yourself, your background and why this is such a passionate thing for you.
Speaker 3:Oh sure, I actually have a group in entrepreneurial family, so I think that was a gift to me, because there's lots of nuances that you learn within that. And I have a finance degree and also then my law degree. So I worked for two years in between. So I feel like I've had a pretty varied background on the business world as well as the legal world. And the practice of law is a business and I don't know that we're always taught that in law school.
Speaker 3:I have had a couple variations of different businesses combining consulting and practicing law, and I am a state and business planning attorney. So I took the transactional route and incorporated my interest, which was business and certainly caring for families. I think a lot of lawyers do go to law school because they want to impact someone or some community, and then you find out how much is involved in doing that, plus, by the way, the seven years of school. So it really is a process and I think we all we often have to be pulled back to one of my favorite phrases, back to basics, because when things get pretty complicated you have to kind of pull back and say, okay, so what's the most important or what are we trying to accomplish here. So I kind of have a varied background so I feel like I can speak to a bit and really enjoy watching others grow within this very diverse technology age, really just grow their legal practice.
Speaker 2:Awesome. So let's talk about these younger lawyers. They go through all the schooling. They are ready to go out, they're ready to go get their first job. What are some of the unexpected challenges that some of these new lawyers face right out of school?
Speaker 3:I think the first part is that they are feel as though their plan is done, that seven years is a long time. It's a lot of pushing yourself forward to get through the undergrad, the law school, the bar exam, your first job. That's a pretty big accomplishment. But I believe that then they forget to continue to plan often, and what I mean by that is what is this life going to look like in practicing law? Because we don't necessarily get out of law school and we started job and we know how to do it and we're just getting better and better out of it.
Speaker 3:We're actually still trying to determine which job is best for us. We're trying to determine how to practice law as well as the business of law, and I think the business of law applies whether you're in a government job, if you're at a corporate job, if you're at a law firm, because even though it's law, that's our trade or that's our service, but it is a business. We have to determine how we're getting people to hire us and we have to determine that our income and expenses are running at the pace that they need to. I don't know that all lawyers see the practice of law as a business, so it's a little twist on it, because it always ends up being that and sometimes that's where some of the frustration comes. So I think planning, continuing to plan, is an encouragement for young lawyers and also really getting an idea or finding someone to get some insight on the business of law, just so you understand it, regardless of the practice area that you end up in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so that's interesting and so you know. Correct me if I'm mishearing you, but I mean it almost sounds like you know, like you said, regardless of where you end up, whether it's big law or even a small firm or a corporate or a government you're saying that you know you still need to understand the business of it, rather than just what you're practicing Like. What does that mean, though?
Speaker 3:Well, I mean. So a business has income, expenses, administration and people. So you know, if you take the four basic categories of a business, so even if we take a government job, they have clients already based on the way that's structured, but they still have to figure out the administrative, they have to figure out how much time it's going to take in order to get the job done, and then they have to interact with the HR side of it, the people. So there's always an element of, and then they have to practice law. So the practicing law is such a huge part of it and in the beginning it's a very, very steep learning curve. Even if you've done really well in law school or you've had internships or it still is a steep learning curve.
Speaker 3:So it's really just acknowledging or reminding young lawyers that that's part of it, so they don't get into their job and then realize, oh my gosh, there's so much more that I have to be thinking about here. So it's more of an awareness on the corporate job or the, especially the small, midsize firm, all that's happening at once. You might not be part of it initially You're really trying to practice law but an awareness of your, the business side, meaning well, how are we getting these clients? Or time versus money. You know every young lawyer has to deal with time because of the structure of our fees are typically based on time Because all that stuff's in your head.
Speaker 3:So it really is just just to understand the basics of business. I think is very helpful. And as you're doing that, you're also planning for the future. Most business owners are always thinking a little bit of head of their current situation so that they can continue their business. So it's just two. You know important points about practicing law. Yeah, most law schools they're starting to talk about it a little bit, but I don't think they concentrate on it because the practice of law is fairly demanding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that was going to be my next question is just how much of this do they even like? What? Any context for this in law school? But then it's like, well, where do you even begin to fit it in? Because you know it's already long enough already and I imagine all of it is very important to learn along the way, and so it's like there's this other important element of it. But where do you even fit in other than just having them get the real world experience once they get out?
Speaker 3:Right. Well, and I think part of that is taking. So if you're working 40 or 50 hours, maybe more, in a law office, you're concentrating on learning how to practice law. Yeah, and when you step away just to think about the processes of your business or your office or where your paper flow is, that is, that is a business element, whether you call it that or not. So I think that the with respect to how do you process it, it's more of an awareness as your, if you take a lane and 80% of his learning law, that other 20% is just an awareness of how it's all working, because that part is what's pushing you forward in your career, what you are trying to do.
Speaker 3:The next part of it to look like In the beginning, you're just probably taking a job to learn it, trying to find the right fun, the right environment. So if you're taking a little bit of time thinking about the processes and how this is working, I think it gives you some insight into your future. What would work for you once you begin to master a certain area of law.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so for many of these lawyers, part of that future is going out starting their own firm, being their own boss, working for themselves, and maybe they have some of this context and understanding for how the business of law works, but a lot of times they're not responsible for it. But now, once you're going out and opening your own firm, you have all of these new responsibilities you are the bookkeeper, the marketer, the receptionist, the admin. A lot of times, especially if you're a true solo, how do you balance all of these new accountabilities and responsibilities that come along with running your own firm on top of doing the legal work that you're getting paid to do?
Speaker 3:Right, and sometimes those that think it's the best choice to go out on their own find it is two full-time jobs running a business and practicing law. So I think a big part of that is knowing what you do well. And when I say that I'm a big proponent of your natural skills knowing your natural skills I'm certified in Myers-Briggs. I feel like I have a couple CLEs that I have about what type of lawyer are you? Are you the practicing lawyer, the managing lawyer, the rain making lawyer? So there are skills that each lawyer has. Very often lawyers lean, very logical and task oriented, when I mean that they're very good at going through a checklist. So therefore, the parts that they probably need to fill in may be the marketing side. Potentially it could be the. You interact with a lot of law firms. You can see that that's your business, why people hire you.
Speaker 3:Additionally, I think the getting clients in the door is another facet that lawyers sometimes are not as seasoned at, because they are excellent at the quiet part or the work part. So much of that. I mean. I think law school attracts every type of personality. So therefore, I think it's just important to know yourself really well, because then if you can figure out. You know we really excel when we are in our natural skill lane.
Speaker 3:You know, if I was asked all day long to do accounting, I might not be as excellent at that as in a firm requires accounting as I might be at the practicing or the rain making or the managing. So I know what I do well and I try to. If you're building a practice, you want to surround yourself with someone that fills in that gap, like a good marriage, yeah, yeah. And then the other part is I think you need a man, I think you need people around you. Any good business owner always has someone that is ahead of them, guiding them, and I don't know if lawyers see that. You know we all don't get that because it's not structured that way. But most lawyers that are ahead of young lawyers are always willing to provide advice. So I think that it's again, I feel a big part of my passion is highlighting a few areas that lawyers don't get exposed to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so you know, and going back to something you said a minute ago, we had a good episode a couple of weeks ago with Emily LaRouche talking about your genius zone and that kind of talks about you know talks speaks into what you just said, where it's. You know, kind of these four quadrants of like things you're good at and you like doing, things you're good at but don't really care for. You know things that you're bad at but you're doing, and then things that you hate and don't like doing.
Speaker 2:Right and so you know, the idea is is focus on the things that you like doing and you're good at doing, and then surround yourself with the people and the resources that can help accomplish the rest of those things for you, and even as a true solo, there are still ways to get that done, like you still don't have to do it all on your own, and I think that that's a big hurdle that a lot of these new lawyers have to overcome.
Speaker 3:Exactly, absolutely, and those are. You know the resources out there to determine the who, the quadrants or the natural skills are voluminous. You know you really have. It's just taking the time to determine it. Because if, if a lawyer went through law school, we actually have learned how to figure things out. You know that's part of three years of law school is being trained to figure out a problem, solve a problem. So part of it is not that you have to solve every problem. Part of it is that in solving the problem, maybe it's bringing collaborating with someone or planning to have the income to hire someone in the future. So, and all that comes back to business and planning.
Speaker 3:It is a and it's just not thought of sometimes in the legal environment that they're connected Right. So you know whichever words we use. But I just so appreciate that others are saying that because it really is critical and you know, think everyone that's listening. When you think about, when you're doing something you either love or you're really good at, kind of is if you're like a better word easy. You're doing it very efficiently. You're, you know, cranking through it. You're happy at the end of the day because it's what you naturally do. So that is possible to find that lane within law. I just think it has. You have to seek it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, and the other elements of this is you know we've been talking, you know strictly about everything that is involved in running the business, but then you also have your personal life and your family life going on in the other side of that, and so you know, what have you seen in that regard? Because I know this is a thing you focus on. So clearly it's an issue. What have you seen you know happen, or the issues that you know lawyers deal with when it comes to trying to balance work and family life?
Speaker 3:I think that is an area that I have seen many seasoned lawyers they are at some actually stop practicing, even though they finally hit the point and poured all this time, energy and money into a career, because they cannot leave that business that they created or practice that they created to then add an element of spouse and family and all that goes with that. So my opinion is that you have to make a decision earlier what you want your life to look like in five or ten years, because it's back to that, that fact that you do have to plan still, because many of us are okay soon as I finish this, then I'll get to that and it's very difficult when your your career is pretty demanding. So if you have all these parts pulling at you the business of law and the practice of law then you can't find the break to add a spouse and add children and yet, as you know now it's just such a wonderful part of life and it does balance this. So my wish is that young lawyers do not give up all that. They've worked so hard and they've become actually good at practicing law at one point that they don't have to give that up, and part of that is that that between that three and three, seven year, three and seven year mark, maybe that they are starting to reposition themselves, whether it's that they're from or in a new position, or maybe it's starting the business so that they can add the element of family. Because you know from my, I've been married over 28 years.
Speaker 3:I have two young men that are, you know, adulting and as children, and and I would say that there are were ebbs and flows within my career in order to manage that and I I'm so grateful I have that part of my life.
Speaker 3:It makes me better, you know, having a husband and two children that are growing and, you know, entering the world in a in a way that I'm proud of.
Speaker 3:So I I just think it's so much of this is an awareness and we're so busy learning how to practice law that you know that is something that I really hope to bring to your audience. That just take a minute, maybe talk to others, maybe find someone that's done it, that you you know that you actually respect that is done it. Well, look for those older or the attorneys that are ahead of you to give you a little wisdom and try not to get to the point that you're so tired because practicing law is tiring because, if you really think about it, every single person that comes to us has a problem to solve. So after 30 years I graduated, you know, a little bit around that time ago, after 30 years of solving other people's problems, if you don't find your, your quadrant that fits, yeah, it's tiring and you leave. Yeah, and that's a shame, because I think we we miss out on some really excellent, excellent attorneys because they just say I just can't do it anymore so let's get there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and and I mean I, I see this happen with some of our clients too. It's just like you know they come to us and and they're you know they're terminating their, their agreement with us, and you know we try to find, figure out why. There's always different reasons, but there are always every year, a handful of them that just say I, I just can't do this anymore, I'm getting out, I'm switching careers, and you know it's, it is really unfortunate, and so you know the other aspects of your focus is is making sure that people find the happiness that you know they need and deserve, and you know you've talked a lot today about the importance of planning and and having those mentors. Is that, in your opinion, what the happiest attorneys do well? Or are there other elements included in that that you've seen that you know lead to a lot of that really genuine happiness for people in their career?
Speaker 3:I think, um, lawyers that find the practice area they love and they're impacting people or a community or a group, they're often very content because they see their impact, but they probably have quite a few people around them that are allowing them to do the part of that that uh accomplishes the goal.
Speaker 3:Uh, I see lawyers that, um, because there's a combination of lawyers that, if you look at a public defender versus a corporate lawyer, I mean there are two different groups and two different lives that come with that. You know, one's trying to completely impact a community or a certain group of people and the other one is in a, in a more um, a fluent area because the clients have more money to pay and get things done. So you know again, both are valuable and important. It just depends which one that you're that your passion is in. So the ones that are the happiest are either accomplishing the goal regardless of the practice area, of their original intent of going to law school, and they they're able to find the role within the practice of law that is just, that is comfortable, and they can keep learning in that, but they're not overwhelmed by all the other jobs. So, same business principle you know who's bringing the income in. Who's paying the expenses, who's handling the people and and and. Who is handling the administration?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and so you know one of the last things I want to ask you about. You know you've talked a lot about planning. Uh, you know, and, and mapping these sorts of things out. What does that look like? You know, kind of broadly speaking. You know, how far out do you plan? What are some of the things that you plan for? Do you account for maybe some unexpected Um Obstacles or opportunities along the way? I mean, you know, for example, we talked about, you know, like I'll use myself for an example like maybe I had planned out 10 years in advance, but maybe I didn't think about the fact that I was going to have a kid. You know, and, and and obviously that makes a lot of big changes there and it adjusts your priorities and everything.
Speaker 2:So how, you know what, what sorts of things do you, you know, advise people with in that regard when they are making their big plan for their career?
Speaker 3:Two points are that you are living below your income, and I say that mostly because very often we're finally after seven years of school. If you went straight through, you are overjoyed to have an income, but I think that the biggest error people make is they buy a new car, they get a big house and they become beholden what they call that golden handcuffs.
Speaker 3:So you may have heard that term. They become beholden to the job and the income of the job. So watching that is part of it, and then the part of the five year. I one of my when I consult with young lawyers or, you know, business people even one of the numbers that people don't always think about. They think of their annual salary, but they don't always think about their monthly income.
Speaker 3:So if you need $5,000, $10,000, $20,000 a month, whatever that number is, I love to be able to say if you're in the, in the position of beyond a paycheck, where you're making some decision, you have to push a little more to, to make a little bit more. That number is is an interesting way to look at things, because if you actually say your number's 10,000, I'll just pick a general number and you work. Whatever your work is, you work hard enough to get to 10,000,. It's only the 20th of the month. You actually could pause, spend time with family, plan a trip and and push your next project clients, work, product, whatever you need to the next month because you actually know your monthly number. Yeah, and you know. So. Lawyers don't always think like that because they're basically saying no, no, I'm not, I'm waiting for clients to come to me, but we're all marketing. I'm waiting for the paycheck. Well, if the paycheck is 10,000, well, maybe when you get to you know the point where you've made made 8,000 of it. That other 2,000 you're pushing into your family fund, or or I think it's a 30 day project instead of an annual project, and that's a really different way, an efficient way to look at it, because then you're you're blocking out time for your family, for your spouse, I mean, stay married, you know, have kids. It's a wonderful part of life. It actually makes us, makes us better, and I believe that a lot of it is so.
Speaker 3:One of my, when you're in law school, they sometimes say if you, maybe one of your classes will say look at a situation and look at it from every angle, because everyone has an opinion, or you know one side saying this is the argument and then the other side arguing you know, moot court or whatever it might be. Yeah, and I, I like to look at business that way, to where we, if things are frustrating, step back and look at it from a completely different angle. Sometimes you have to read a book, talk to a marketing person, sometimes you have to talk to a mentor or just pause and rest for a minute, but very often your answer is in looking at it from a completely different perspective. So I encourage those that are frustrated to just step back and look at the basics of their their career and look at it from a different angle if they're frustrated.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean so many different ways of going back. I mean I love the, the 30 day analogy that you, that you put there, because, you know, even as you were talking, I was thinking to myself oh, I do something like this.
Speaker 1:I you know. So I felt.
Speaker 2:I felt very special.
Speaker 1:Oh, I encourage you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So you know it was really good because it does help, because you know, and the way that I approach it is, you know I I reach that number and then I look, you know you talk about, you know you get there on the 20th and I look at that and be like, okay, what do I have the capacity to do right now?
Speaker 2:You know, do I need to, you know, do I have the opportunity or do I need to step away from this and go spend some time with my family or take some time for myself, or whether or do I have some capacity to maybe help my future self out a little bit and maybe get ahead and then in future months, if I am feeling a little bit more stressed or burned out or, you know, pulled in a bunch of different directions, I have a little bit more flexibility there to step away a little bit earlier because I've worked ahead a little bit. And so, however you look at it, you know doing, you know approaching something that way really can be valuable for people.
Speaker 3:So you have 12 opportunities, you know, to do that in your 12 months, as opposed to thinking it's October. You know we all have that, that you're feeling in January 1st we're going to make things happen. So it really is a concept of actually creating that more often.
Speaker 2:Yeah, love it. So what? How can people learn more about what you do in the ways that you help in and get in touch?
Speaker 3:Oh, sure, so I have an Instagram Kelly ESQ you. My last name is quite, it's a German name, great husband, you know, great son, but it's long. So that's my Instagram. I have a my law office website. I think if you look at my last name, all my stuff comes up because nobody has that name.
Speaker 3:We have, a year ago I, with a partner of mine that ended up moving for her family, we had have a very basic blueprint law office on a laptop and that's kind of the business basics. So that's a you know it's not meant to be, you know your, your whole business plan, but it really does have some basics of business in there. But I would love to connect on Instagram. You know I'm great on communicating via email and I usually I often have a 15 minute. Let's get to know each other. One of my favorite parts of practicing law is the interaction with the clients and the referral sources and my fellow professionals. So since that's my favorite part, I created a, an opportunity to get to know people. So that's via my website. So, and you can find me at kellyesqcom.
Speaker 2:Awesome, yeah, definitely, definitely. Go check her out and reach out and see, see all the stuff that she's got going on. You do a lot of really, really good work there, so one final question for you before we wrap up here. If you had one final piece of advice for our audience, what would it be?
Speaker 3:It would be that if you're frustrated or overwhelmed, take a step back and because you're a smart person, I know that you know you are seasoned in many different things take a step back and consider looking at your situation from a different angle. It's so insightful because very often we get caught in the routine of it. So just step back and look at your problem from another angle to move you forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and to piggyback on that, we use the EOS model here internally at Spotlight Branding. For those who aren't familiar, it's essentially just a framework for how businesses run meetings and set goals and all that stuff. Quarterly, we as a leadership team get together and the whole concept behind it is you show up to this meeting and you are not. Whatever your job title is, you are there as an advisor looking at the company, and so we spend a whole day looking at issues, opportunities, everything as unbiased and with as much of an outside perspective as you can right and not taking your own seats, personal circumstances into account as much as you can, and it really does help surface a lot of good talking points and drive a lot of discussion.
Speaker 3:You just get different perspective that you would never get it without opening the door to have that conversation. That's really interesting. I'd like to hear more about those. I bet they're fantastic.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely. So that's why I love that. What you said there is just step back and try to look at things either from a 10,000 foot view or just from a different angle, and you really can start to see just different avenues and opportunities. Or if you struggle to do that, like you said, get with some mentors, get with some people who have been there, who are farther along down the line, because I know that they will have a lot of really good insight as well. So that is going to do it for us this week. Thank you so much for continuing to listen. If you have not done so yet, please leave a rating and review. It does help the show out a lot, and that's going to do it, kelly. Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 3:Take care, enjoy your family, appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Thanks for listening. To learn more, go to spotlightbrandingcom. Slash center stage.