Fix Your Law Firm’s Intake Process for Good feat. Steve Fretzin

🚀 If your law firm’s intake process isn’t converting, you’re losing clients you should be winning. Steve Fretzin joins Danny to break down why most lawyers struggle during consultations and how a better, question-driven approach changes everything. From uncovering what prospects actually care about to identifying who’s truly qualified, this episode reveals why more leads won’t fix your growth problem and what will. If you want stronger cases, better clients, and a process that actually works, this is a conversation you can’t afford to miss.

You can get in touch with Steve here:        https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevefretzin/

If you want to strategize your firm's marketing, speak with our team:
 https://bit.ly/spotlightmarketingbranding

Copyright © 2026. Spotlight Marketing + Branding

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

The whole switcheroo is that we're walking a buyer through a buying decision. We're not selling anyone anything. And if there's a fit and if there's a win-win outcome, let's continue to move it forward and let's get the business in the door.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Welcome back to the Center Stage podcast. My name is Danny Decker, and we've got a really great guest for you today, Steve Fretson, who's the founder of Be That Lawyer. Steve has written five books, hosts multiple podcasts. We were just talking in the green room. I think we're going to have a lot of really interesting conversation today. So, Steve, thanks so much and welcome to Center Stage. Yeah, happy to be here, Danny. Thanks for having me. So for those that don't know you yet, um, give the quick overview um, you know, kind of what you've done in the legal space, because it sounds like quite a lot.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Yeah, I always tell people right off the bat I'm not a lawyer, but I've been adopted into the into the legal industry family uh 18 years in the trenches, doing nothing but helping lawyers build their books of business using sales-free selling methodologies. So lawyers don't learn business development or any of the stuff in law school at the law firm level. And I found a great niche in working with lawyers to help them scale their businesses, build massive books of business, scale their law practices through very relationship consultative-driven methodologies that they really enjoy versus it being kind of a pain. And I just I'm very fortunate I work in all practice areas and uh I'm in like seven countries, and it's just been an absolute blessing to be a part of this great industry, the legal industry.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

I love that. Well, the first place I want to dig in uh is is you you kind of mentioned I love the term sales-free selling. And you know, you may not be surprised to hear, but you know, as as as a marketing agency, we we obviously work hand in hand with law firms and and that handoff between marketing and sales is is really, really important to us, right? Because you know, we we we have a job to do, but ultimately for our clients to get the ROI that that they need, um, they also have a job to do on the sales side of things. And and we work with a lot of solo and and small firms, and and our audience for this podcast is primarily solo and small firms. And so sales and intake is is a is a real pain point, and I do know for sure that part of it is that just perception of not wanting to feel, you know, like a salesperson, right? You you you went to law school um not because you wanted to be quote unquote a salesperson. So sales-free selling really jumped out at me. So can you talk about what that is and what that means?

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Yeah, so it all stemmed from from a sales background that I came up in. And, you know, I had managers and bosses that were just sell, sell, sell and don't take no for an answer. And like coming up in the 80s and the 90s, it was very aggressive. And I never felt right about it. And I was always the nice guy you hoped you'd meet because I would really try to make sure that everybody was, you know, win-win situation. But that wasn't what most managers and most businesses were up for. And then I get into the legal industry and I see that they're they're called pitch meetings and like they're lawyers that are going out and talking and selling and pitching and giving away free advice and giving away their rates and giving away all this stuff. And the problem is that that there's so much information and competition that buyers are totally controlling the entire experience and running lawyers around in in loops and circles, and then they're chasing after them when they when they disappear on them. So I came up with a model where the whole switcheroo is that we're walking a buyer through a buying decision. We're not selling anyone anything. And if there's a fit and if there's a win-win outcome, let's continue to move it forward and let's get the business in the door. The other outcome is let's say that they don't have the money, or let's say they're crazy, or let's say that I'm not dealing with the right people. Well, then let's move it to a no and let's be okay with that. We can stay friends and not chase and not have to just like feel like we've won something when we really haven't. So the whole tenet of sales-free selling is to sort of flip it on its end. The the lawyer has control, but not by talking and pitching and selling, but by asking all the questions and learning and listening and understanding and ultimately qualifying that this is really a great fit. And lawyers that embrace a system that doesn't involve salesiness, they just fall all over it. And they're like, I wish I had known about this 10 years ago or 20 years ago. So it's really been an incredible win-win outcome to work in the industry where they need this kind of training. Love that.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

You know, Steve, so I'll just say philosophically, you know, I believe both, you know, here in our agency and also with the the lawyers that we work with and the law firms that we work with, like at the end of the day, sales is it shouldn't be, at least in these spaces, it shouldn't be about manipulation or pressure or or or tricking people or anything like that. Really, in an ideal world, it's a fairly simple conversation of first, let's get clear where the prospect is today, right? Like their pain points today, their current reality, you know, the thing that's that's concerning them, like where are they today? And then where can we help them get to, right? Whether that's a lawyer considering working with us or working with you, or a law firm that's having a conversation with a prospect. And and it's just let's talk about where you are today, let's talk about where you want to be, and let's have a conversation about how we can get you from point A to point B through our services. Do you agree with that philosophy? What would you add to that? Does that align with sort of the sales-free selling?

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Yeah. So, you know, building deep relationship and trust, taking control of a meeting. And what I'll share with you, Danny, that's really important that lawyers are totally missing the boat on, is that there's ultimately four qualifiers that determine that a lawyer should continue talking to a prospective client. Number one is do they have compelling reasons to take action? If they don't have compelling reasons to take action, are they really gonna spend a bunch of money on a lawyer? And if they don't see that there are compelling reasons, you know, then you haven't dug deep enough. Or maybe they don't really have any and they're just kicking tires and it might be a big waste of time. So compelling reasons to change. Like I'm not gonna go and spend$10,000 a month on a mark on new marketing agency if I don't have real compelling reasons to spend that money. So number one is compelling reasons. Number two is are they committed to change? Are they committed to taking action? Because if they have a lot of reasons, but they're not serious about it, then what's the point? The third uh qualifier is um are you dealing with, in fact, the decision maker? Because if all you're doing is dealing with gatekeepers and and and um and underlings and and people and there's boards involved and you don't even know, or there's other competitors involved and you don't even know, that's a huge misstep where lawyers think they have the business, but they don't. And it's because they didn't qualify that they're actually talking to someone who's gonna sign off on it. And then the fourth is are they qualified that they're willing and able to invest, to make the payments, to spend$650,$850 an hour on this project than this legal project. So what I would put to you and everybody listening is would you rather present solutions and your proposal, your engagement letter to someone where you don't know they have compelling reasons to change, they don't, you don't know if they're committed to change, you don't know if you're even dealing with the right person, and you don't know if they have the financial wherewithal to engage you, or would you rather present where you've actually qualified all of that, and then you're in a better position not only to present, but to present the right things.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

That's and that's a huge, that's a huge switch for people that don't understand how important that is in business development.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

I really love the way that you laid that out. And like my my my marketing brain is thinking about like, okay, you know, so so so where along the marketing journey and where along the sort of intake journey do do you, you know, work that messaging in and ask the right questions? But it sounds like, you know, so so there's certainly a marketing component to this, right? Like in an ideal world, whether somebody is working with our agency or a different agency or doing their own marketing, it doesn't really matter. In an ideal world, your marketing is bringing you people that do check those boxes, right? They are the decision makers, they do have a compelling reason to change. Um, but it also sounds like part of what you're suggesting is that should be sort of pulled out during the sales meeting, right? The consultation or the intake, or or so can you talk a little bit about, you know, sort of tactically, how does a law firm um most of our clients, I think, do kind of their own consultations, right? But some do have an intake team that that that does the consultation. So in in either case, sort of where do you actually bring your how do you implement that into a sales consultation intake process?

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Yeah, I mean, some of this has to be incorporated into the intake, right? So how is the intaker um um developing a little bit of rapport so that they can get information? That's really the key. This is an information collection strategy. We can't, you know, the the the easiest way to kind of define this whole this whole methodology is um a prescription before diagnosis is malpractice. So we're going in and we're diagnosing something like here's a solution for you, but we haven't done the proper diagnosis. And intake is a huge part of understanding that in fact they have some issues, they have the money to pay, you are dealing with someone that's in charge. If all of that resonates, then maybe that's how we elevate it to an actual meeting with a lawyer, right? If that doesn't resonate and they they don't have a nickel to scrape together and they're, you know, 50,000 in debt, and you identify that earlier that they don't have a case and you're able to pick that up. Well, then, you know, be very kind and move them to a no and say, you know, unfortunately, we're at this time, you know, we're not taking out any new cases or whatever it is that you have to do, or refer them to someone else, or whatever it might be. Um, but all of this is about how are we getting information? Just like think about it like this. You're going to a therapist, and the therapist asks you a ton of questions and gets to the bottom of why you have a problem with your father, or why you, you know, teenager isn't talking to you, or whatever it might be. That's a great therapist. But if a therapist just you walk in and they say, here, take this drug, it'll help you forget about it. Well, that's not solving anything, right? So we're trying to get, we're trying to get intake teams and we're trying to get lawyers to start thinking strategically about shutting up, not talking, not solving, not giving rates. Let's do a proper diagnosis. And then once we know everything, not only can we prescribe, but we actually know what to prescribe, which in many cases lawyers don't know until they've taken that deep dive.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

That's so good. That's so good. And and it's much easier said than done for a lot of people to really kind of like shut up and listen. But that kind of does need to happen to a certain extent. So so I love that. But I also want to zero in on the beginning piece of that too, because so I'm a big believer in sales and and marketing having sort of a feedback loop, right? Where it's like, you know, it may be marketing's job to create the sales opportunity, but then we definitely want input from sales back to marketing in terms of what what what messaging is working. And so so I want to zero in on a compelling reason to change, right? And and I think that's just super important. And and again, as a marketing person, like that's a super, it's a great conversation. And so if I can put you on the spot a little bit and choose just any practice area, but can you give me an example of a you know a client that does have a compelling reason to change? Like, what's an example? If I'm a law firm, I'm sitting down, I'm having an intake conversation. What's a good example of a compelling reason to change that should get me like excited about this prospect?

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Yeah. So let's say that you're a um, let's say you're an employment attorney, okay? And let's say it's plaintiff's side. So you've got you've got someone that um was was let go from their job and they're really upset about it and everything else. And they tell you that um, you know, this this is um, you know, very unfair. And um, and and and uh there was some, you know, there was someone that's younger than me that got the position, and I think because I'm older, they let me go. Most lawyers would immediately jump all over to resolve that and sell them and like this is what we do and this is how we work and this is this is how we're gonna help you. I would say don't go there yet. I would want to say, all right, so so let me let me understand so if I'm understanding you correctly, you believe you got fired because you're an older person and you think they were being discriminatory against you because of that. Tell me why you think that. And so then the person starts telling you more about it, and maybe there's a couple of examples that they provide of what happened that allows you to understand what's underneath the sentence they shared with you that I got fired because I think of my age. And then then between those examples and in how this is impacting them and how this is you know changing their life for the worse and where they believe the fault is, and you're starting to really think there's something here because I'm getting more information versus just jumping at the bit to try to resolve something and sell them on something. So, with any issue that comes up, I call them apparent reasons. They're apparent because someone just tells you what they are. I have a mark for you. I have a marketing challenge. I'm not getting enough leads in the door. You might think that's all you need to know. You're not getting enough leads in the door. We resolve that. Let me tell you how we fix it. And I would say, don't. I would say, why do you think you're not getting leads in the door? How many leads do you think you should have in the door? What are you currently getting? What's the average value of a new lead for you? What, you know, how does this all play? So we're just taking a deeper dive, like an iceberg. You know, all you're getting is that top piece ice where the sale is actually underneath the water.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Well, and where I'm going with this, Stephen, and tell me if you see it any differently, but it's like most firms, right, in most practice areas, if they take this approach that you're kind of describing, they're going to start seeing patterns, right? And so the age-based discrimination, right? Like let's say they start seeing, you know, kind of kind of that as a specific pattern and and and going a little bit deeper and and and really finding out that, you know, for a variety of of maybe justice-related reasons and personal pride related, but that is something that really resonates in the in the sales conversation. Well, then one of the things I would strongly encourage is great, now let's take that and let's bring that messaging now into your front-end marketing. And so maybe we create some lead magnets that are like, you know, what to do if you've been, you know, discriminated against because of your age, and and actually then take some of that, you know, some of the some of the patterns that we've unearthed on the sales side of things and really work that into the front-end messaging. And then that hopefully creates a feedback loop where marketing companies, because this happens, I mean, and this probably happens in our company too, especially early on in a relationship with a client. There's a certain level of guesswork, but ideally you start gathering real data, having those connections, and then you start building marketing campaigns around the messaging that actually pulls in sort of ideal clients for a law firm. And to me, that is when like the magic starts happening from a marketing, intake, sales process. Would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Absolutely. I mean, everything is working together, and I'm a big proponent of you're climbing a mountain as a lawyer, as a as a as a growing law practice. And the best way to climb the mountain is there's a sales side and the BD side, right? And there's a marketing side. If you can do this, if you can do the BD side where you're developing relationships, you're you're you're leading groups, you're doing things that are that are you know allowing you to get in front of prospects and drive up new strategic relationships for referrals and such. And then while you're doing that, you're also building up the marketing side, the social media, ads, whatever it is that you're using, creating content, putting out video, putting out podcasts, whatever it is. And then when you get to the top, when you're climbing both sides, you the peak is going to happen much faster. So we want to make sure that we're utilizing sales to give feedback to marketing, marketing to give feedback to sales, and they work hand in hand.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Love it. And so, okay, so great. Now we've created this marketing, sales, intake, you know, feedback loop that's working really well, and we've got these great clients coming into a law firm. You know, I'm curious your take on this, but you know, we have conversations often with with law firms, and it's like, listen, the number one thing I need is is just is just more leads, more clients. If if I had that, everything else is good to go. Like I got my process. But like what we've seen is sometimes when you actually finally do kind of crack that code, you know, then other other things break in the business. So can you speak a little bit to that? I know you do a lot of work with helping helping firms scale and actually handle the work that their marketing and sales is doing. Like, talk to us about that for a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Well, so I've interviewed hundreds and hundreds of rainmakers and managing partners, and and uh many of those interviews are in the book. Uh, my most recent bestseller called uh Be That Lawyer, 101 Top Rainmaker, Secrets to Growing a Successful Law Practice. And what I learned um in new but but reinforced was that systems. You cannot be successful without systems, marketing systems, operational systems, financial systems, uh tech, you know, what's your tech stack, you know, what's your IT systems. And so anyone that wants to scale, like we can bring in all this business and then you can't handle it, right? Or you don't have ways of bringing in business because you don't have systems for bringing in business, whether it's a BD system, a marketing system, and then you know, an intake system. So, you know, any, any and all, you know, great law firms are learning quickly that you have to run it like a business. You can't run it like an old timey law firm. And so, so that's really at the heart. And I and I don't handle everything, Danny. Like if it's marketing they need, you know, you're the guy. If it's operations, I've got four or five top-level consultants that can help them on operations. Um, if they're dealing with bad finances and cash flow and they don't know what the hell is going on with all their money, like where's all their money? Like, I've got you know, five, you know, amazing financial bookkeepers and CFO types that are gonna help get in there and and dig in and make sure that they're that they're set there. But that's at the heart of lawyers think they can do it all themselves because they're smart and I get it. However, you know, it takes a it takes a village, right? We need to think about how are we bringing in the right people to help, you know, build and scale and make sure this is sustainable over time.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Love it. Okay, so Steve, tell us a little bit more about be that lawyer, like just kind of what's the service offering, how does your program work?

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Yeah, I appreciate that. The be that lawyer credo is all about you know helping ambitious attorneys that are frustrated with figuring it out themselves and like they, you know, just getting, you know, their mindset isn't right, they don't have a system, they don't have language, and they're just they're trying their hardest, they're attending things, they're throwing everything against a wall. It doesn't seem to be getting there quickly enough. So the be that lawyer, I only offer two things. I offer coaching and training. So coaching, I know all the top coaches, they're wonderful. I believe I'm the only one that's offering an actual class where they get an MBA style uh experience going through a class with 10, 15 attorneys from around the country that are learning and honing skills in conjunction with coaching for me, with accountability, customization. Everyone's different. So that's about 60% of my time is coaching and training. Individual attorneys, I don't work with firms. Only individual, it could be a managing partner at a firm, but I'm not actually working and engaging with firms other than like retreats and things like that. The other thing I do is I'm currently running four peer advisory roundtables called Rainmaker Roundtables. And so this is where I take managing partners and high-end equity partners, put them in a room and let them collaborate with each other, solve problems, share best practices. Um, they talk about their goals, they are hold each other accountable. I bring in top-level guest speakers to work with them on time management and marketing and such. And so they feel like they've got a family outside of the firm where they can really talk in a confidential environment. So between those two uh deliverables, that's how I'm keeping, and then all the marketing I create. It's keeping me quite busy.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

It sounds like it. It's great stuff. And so, Steve, for somebody that wants to learn more about you, maybe find your podcast, what where uh where do people go to connect?

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Yeah, be that lawyer.com is the website, be that lawyer podcast. I'm very prolific on LinkedIn. I'm all over there posting multiple times a day. Great content. Uh, just go to uh Steve Fretson on LinkedIn. Um, I write a column for Above the Law, easy to find me there. I'm usually on their homepage a couple times a month. Um, but uh I'm just here to help the industry. If I'm, you know, I'm gonna work with I'm gonna work with some lawyers, but my real goal is how am I helping to make the legal industry a better place and an easier place for lawyers to be successful on the non lawyerly activities. That's really my goal.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

Love it, Steve. Thanks so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Thanks, Danny.