High Performance and Organisation Development at Intel with Dr. Aidan Harney - OrgDev Episode 8

High Performance and Organisation Development at Intel. Intel is the world's largest manufacturer of central processing units and semiconductors and is at an important strategic inflection point.

So how do you develop the capability of your leaders so they're able to deliver on your strategy when you're in one of the most competitive industries in the world?
How do you support your leadership teams to make critical decisions that will  impact on the future of your organisation?

We've invited the brilliant Dr. Aidan Harney as our guest for the OrgDev Podcast to shine a light on these and many other interesting questions. Dr. Aidan is the OD director of Greater European Area

Dr. Aidan Harney, PhD, Chartered FCIPD
  / aidanharney 

Aidan has dedicated his career to improving individual, team and organizational capabilities.

His extensive role includes:
- mobilizing teams, systems and processes for sustainable Org Transformation - in indigenous Irish and multinational technology and engineering firms - as the Director of the Engineers Ireland Accredited Employer CPD Scheme
- systemic coaching of Senior Leadership Teams for Organizational Effectiveness and Culture Change in a range of regional and global roles with Intel Corporation 

He loves to work with people with different perspectives and backgrounds who have bright minds, fearless hearts and bellies full of fun! 

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You’ll get:
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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

Find out more at www.distinction.live 

We'd love to connect with you on Linked In:
linkedin.com/in/danibacon478
https://www.linkedin.com/in/garinrouch

Transcript

WEBVTT

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Hi and welcome to the Dev podcast. So how do you develop the

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capability of your leaders so they're able to deliver on your strategy when

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you're in one of the most competitive industries in the world?

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And how do you support your leaders to take critical decisions that will

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impact the future of your organization? To help us answer these

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questions, we've invited the brilliant Doctor Aidan Harney from

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Intel as our guest on the Dev podcast this week

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to shine a light on these and many other interesting questions.

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Doctor Aden is the OD director for the greater european area

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and prior to that he was global OD leadership development manager for

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fab sort and manufacturing. These are technical terms that we'll come to

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throughout this podcast as well. So intel is the world's

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largest manufacturer of central processing units and semiconductors. In fact,

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it's very likely that the device that you're watching this or listening to this

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podcast on is actually powered by intel. He's responsible

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for strategizing, shaping and driving Intel's organization

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transformation and leadership effectiveness. He's based

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in Ireland and also works internationally. He has a PhD

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and his PhD was on the meaning making structures of outstanding

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leaders in complex, dynamic environments. He's also a

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chartered fellow of the CIPD and holds a master's in hr strategies.

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So it's probably quite useful just to have a bit of a think about intel.

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So Intel was founded 55 years ago and it's really one

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of Silicon Valley's iconic organizations. It has 132,000

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employees across the world with a footprint and

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a supply chain in different locations around the world.

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And last year it had revenues of approximately $63

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billion. So it's an american multinational company based out

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of California and it's at a really important moment in history.

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It's at a strategic inflection point and this is reflected with the big announcement

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in 2021 by the CEO of a major new strategy to actually start

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manufacturing its chips for other organizations.

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And it's also on the largest architectural shift in 40 years

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as it launched a range of AI features in its laptops and PCs.

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So it's taken a really revolutionary approach to the uncertainty in the operating

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environment around it. So it makes a really interesting conversation to speak to someone

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who's actually at the vanguard of OD in their organization.

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So welcome, Doctor Aiden. Yeah, really looking forward to the conversation. Thank you so

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much for the invite. Brilliant. Lovely to have you here, Aiden. Thank you.

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So, global OD and leadership development manager. Just tell us a bit about that

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role. What does that involve? Yeah, definitely. So I

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love the introduction, Garen and Danny. And maybe if we just flesh that out

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a tiny bit more first and then I can move to the role you mentioned,

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Garen, the inflection point, and our new,

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relatively new CEO, Pat Gelsinger. Pat was actually mentored

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by employee number three of intel, Andy Grove.

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And Andy Grove, the sort of legendary leader during the eighties and

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the nineties for intel. But now that Pat is back, we are

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undergoing a huge transformation that you mentioned. And in simple terms, what it means

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is intel taking all of our, and all of our technology

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and all of our knowledge. And although we traditionally would have manufactured for

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customers within intel, if you like, now really the strategy

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is opening up the doors. And if our customers and

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indeed our competitors want to come in and use that amazing technology

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to design silicon solutions with us, then that's

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the game changing strategy for the future. So it's a real strategic shift

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to what we're calling the foundry model, where we're going to

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create capacity and we're going to enable those that don't have

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fab fabrication mega plants to

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come in and work with us and create amazing solutions. So in that regard,

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that means business model change.

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It means huge structural change, it means,

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obviously technologically huge change. And even

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the famous Andy Grove groveian culture changing somewhat

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too. Interestingly. So, yeah, I've been here pretty much ten years

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now and I think every year has been very exciting. But I would say

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right now is a particularly exciting time to be in OD.

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And. Yeah. So I can tell you a little bit more about the role

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with that context. Really? Yeah. And it's. I think

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you have to. For those that watching, it's really worth going onto YouTube and just

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looking at the scale of the manufacturing plants. These are like 20 billion

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plants. The US president is a regular visitor to Ohio to go

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and look at the opening for these. They've actually created special to support chips

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being manufactured in this particular way. It's huge, isn't it? This movement and

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the actual locations that you do, the clean rooms are again,

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something that needs to be seen to be believed. The scale and

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also the environment that people operate in as well. Yeah, I mean,

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they're huge. They are mega projects. And really

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the strategy at the moment for intel is just looking at the global balance for

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where we manufacture chips, making sure that that is balanced, making sure

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that the supply chain is balanced. That's very important for the

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future. As you said, Garen, in terms of if you work or

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play in a laptop, chances are it's powered by an intel semiconductor.

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If you unwind and relax. And your Netflix streams beautifully.

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That's something that's very important as well. In the near future,

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if you bring a taxi and a driverless taxi arrives, that autonomous

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driving taxi is a big bet for the future. But quite apart

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from that, then you get into governments, education,

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defense that, you know, semiconductors really have a huge span across all of our lives.

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So it's important for everybody. And yeah, I think just last

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week in Ireland, in leakslip, we had a group of transition year students visiting

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us. And you just see that the eyes light up when they get gowned up

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and go into the clean room environment. It's. It's another world,

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as you said. Yeah, it's fascinating technology,

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creating some of the world's most complicated

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technologies from sand. It's incredible. Yeah.

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And there was a really good quote, I think, from your CFO, and he said,

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I think he said something on the lines of, we take the world's most abundant

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material and the rest is talent. Yeah,

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yeah, yeah, that's it. That's it. And I think that's really where,

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you know, for an organization that's on such a huge change trajectory,

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that's where the role of OD is critically important at the moment. So my current

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role is OD director for the greater Europe

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region. And that sort of, I wear sort of two hats in that regard.

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One is making sure that I look after the wealth being

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and the development and the performance of the OD

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team in the region. And the second hat is very much a practitioner

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hat, so working with our global business unit clients

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to drive the change that's required to align

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the, to build out the capabilities.

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And that's really core to what we do. And I often think, Garen and

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Danny, that I love listening back to some of your other podcasts on this.

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And I think of my young nephew here in Australia who might listen

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to this at some time. He loves joking with me. But what do you actually

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do, uncle? I mean, it gets great fun about repeating that.

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What do you actually do? And so I think

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sometimes, I think a good metaphor can go a long way.

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And I sometimes think of the role of the OD director is really

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very much the orchestra manager. And I

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say intentionally, not the orchestra conductor. I'm not responsible

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for leading the performance of the orchestra, but I am responsible

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for having visibility to information

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flows across every department, how they liaise,

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how information is gathered, the programming

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strategy, just being aware and making sure that you have visibility

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to all of that. What do audiences want? How well are we

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structuring in terms of all of our workflows for, I sometimes think about,

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again, the orchestra, the workflows, the talent, the auditions,

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the education piece. So that I guess the orchestra

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manager then is ultimately ensuring that we

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have the capabilities in this orchestra to

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deliver outstanding performances and we have the culture to do that

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on a sustainable basis. We can always turn out a great performance.

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And I think it's a huge number of resonances for me, and I know other

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people who work in the OD space that,

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you know, the conductor, the leaders are ultimately responsible for picking up the

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baton and making the magic happen. But for us,

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we are responsible for just shaping and being aware

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and having visibility to all of those other working parts and making sure

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that they come together constantly to deliver such a high performance.

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Yeah. So that's a real deep understanding of how your organization works

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and kind of the processes and systems and everything involved.

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Yeah, I think so. I think it's very much. Yeah, the systems piece,

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Danny, I fully agree. The ecosystem,

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I would emphasize so the internal systems and the ecosystem

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very much having your finger on the pulse of the health of your organization

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within that system. And then I think the third part is just as

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an OD practitioner, constantly holding up a mirror

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or challenging that we remain competitive

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and that we stay in that change path even after 55 years.

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So there's a lot of orchestras out there, there's a lot of people looking

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to get funding for their orchestra, and how can an

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orchestra differentiate itself and deliver an amazing performance for an audience?

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Yeah, that helps my nephew a little bit. Might help some, really,

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users. What I actually do,

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we'll drill a little bit deeper into that. And there's a lot of interesting points

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that we'd like to pick up as well. We like the thing you said there

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about holding up the mirror. And for people like Kieran or

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others that might be wanting to get into OD, we always ask this

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question, like, what was your journey? And rarely has it ever been a linear answer.

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Did you ever speak to your careers teacher and they said, yep, the computer says

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OD. Like, what was your journey into it? Yeah,

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well, I guess thinking about that, Garen, it's. Yeah,

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on one hand, I could talk about the strategic HR masters that are about to

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do early, but CIPD, the OD and diploma,

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which was very good a number of years ago. But you're

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right. I think for me there's a number of diverse strands that sort of come

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together in my life journey to bring us to OD. So I can talk to

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those a little bit. And I think you're right. I think it is important to

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look at that one. If I go right back to

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my sort of late teens, early twenties, the first degree I

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completed in Colerado University in Northern Ireland was communication

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studies. Everything to do with media, psychology,

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sociology. So straight out of college became a journalist.

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And some of the, I think the rigor

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and the curiosity of the five years that I spent in journalism

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still I share with colleagues all the time. This still

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stands to me. How can you digest a

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huge amount of information pre Google

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search? This was synthesizers, publishes, I mean,

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actually put it out, publish it to such a high standard that

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I do that under the pressure of timeline. So I think that's one strand

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that only in hindsight, I look back and see that early sort

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of rigor and curiosity, asking great questions that

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really, really, really, I'd say would be the first sort of leg on the stool

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of my journey towards Od. I think the second one,

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again, in hindsight only, I would see that.

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Moving on from journalism, I had maybe

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to tell the full story. I'd written several articles about the population

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in Ireland who are known as travellers, irish travelers. So a very, very distinct

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population, sort of separated from

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the main population. I feel like it's sometime in the 16 hundreds under Carmill,

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which we won't go into. We can do that another time. Maybe we're

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doing podcasts too, that one. Exactly. So they

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have very unique challenges in life and a

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very interesting history and a very interesting story. And I just got to know some

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members of the community over the years in journalism and try to bring their story

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a little bit. But when I finished journalism and

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was looking for my next step in life, I still had

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contact with some members of the Traveler community. And I

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met two young men, incredibly brave young men. When I think back to it,

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mid nineties, they were not only travelers, but they were a gay couple,

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and they wanted to tell their story. They wanted to massively break down

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boundaries. And I was very aware of the sensitivity

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of the story and the prejudice that they faced. But I published

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the piece, long story short, and it had a tremendous reaction.

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It had tremendous reaction for them, overwhelmingly positive,

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I'm glad to say. But it also started a conversation in the sort of gay

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community in Ireland and in the Traveler community about,

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you know, some aspects of social justice that haven't been touched upon before and so

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on and so forth. The end part of that story is randomly

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I got a call on my old Nokia 2010,

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the one that lasted a week. You know, you recharge it once, it went forever,

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and it was somebody I didn't know, but somebody had become very close to saint

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and sort of an all time hero of mine, a guy called Michael Barron.

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And what Michael was doing, he had worked

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in various parts of the community with migrants and refugees and

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indeed with travelers, and he had set up a wonderful new organization called belong

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to, which is still doing incredible work.

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But the idea of belong to was that Michael, again, back in the 1990s,

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very radical stuff, wanted to create a safe space for young

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lgbt people in Ireland, and he wanted to

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work with government especially, and work on educational policy around

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safety and well being and anti bullying, etcetera. So Mike had just said,

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look, there's a space on the board. We'd love to have you

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on board. We think you could do something with us.

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And again, long story short, that was ten years as

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a non exec director on the board and just doing pure,

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pure od and system change work. So this was, you know,

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working with politicians, working with governments, working with the president

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of Ireland at the time as our patron. That was quite cool.

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Philanthropists and,

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you know, although I didn't directly work with the young people themselves, just seeing when,

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you know, leaders, which there were, of course, were unable to

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find their voice, they could do incredible things, like a

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series of gay proms, just, you know, fabulous for those young people.

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A huge campaign around standing up to homophobic bullying in schools,

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which has had massive impact in Ireland.

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And, yeah, and I think in the run up to even the marriage

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referendum, that historic moment in Ireland where irish people

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went to a referendum to vote whether or not they would have

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marriage equality, I think some of the stories of the young people that they wanted

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a brighter, better future was hugely impactful. So that's,

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again, a long way of saying the second leg of the tool for me was

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actually very much outside the corporate world, but doing,

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you know, fascinating, messy, complex,

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long term od work, which is, you know, a huge privilege

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to look back on it. And then I would say,

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I think we touched on it before Garen and Danny. The third leg of the

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stool, very much in my journey, was working with Engineers Ireland.

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So ten years with an organization that CIPD

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is the organization for HR professionals. Engineers Ireland is

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the professional organization for engineering professionals. So I

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landed the dream, dream, dream role.

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It wasn't called OD in terms of the title,

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director of continuing professional development, but it was a government funded program

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to live the dream, to go out to mostly american

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multinationals to understand and codify

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what best practice was for them around leadership development, around OD,

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and then to port that to indigenous irish organizations so

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they could adopt best practice. And they did, in some cases, had radically,

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radically, radically transformed their organization. So those ten years,

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the exposure to other mega projects, you know,

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airports, fast speed rail,

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internationally, huge logistics systems, motorways,

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a lot of motorways, hospitals, just, just getting close to leadership

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teams and seeing how they have worked through. And a very

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particular ten years, actually, three, you know, captive tiger years,

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financial crash. How do you use your capabilities to reinvent yourself?

16:32.250 --> 16:35.914
That was hugely foundational and

16:35.954 --> 16:38.986
instructional for me, I would say as an Od practitioner. Again, I didn't call it

16:39.010 --> 16:42.592
OD at the time, and then I just had this niggling voice. Danny and

16:42.648 --> 16:45.640
Darren, I'm sure you've had it as well. Okay.

16:45.672 --> 16:49.600
I'm working with all these different clients across such a huge span.

16:49.792 --> 16:53.544
I wonder, could I go and work with, you know,

16:53.584 --> 16:56.944
their big corporate name and do that

16:57.024 --> 17:00.816
over a period of years and really shift the needle in that environment? And so

17:00.960 --> 17:04.816
I don't know. I was going to say I found intel

17:04.840 --> 17:07.978
or intel found me. It was a, it was a good marriage anyway,

17:08.026 --> 17:11.426
and I promised, I'd say, for three years. And here we are

17:11.450 --> 17:15.266
ten years later. Wow. Halfway through I was so captivated

17:15.290 --> 17:17.254
by that, I forgot I had to ask questions.

17:18.834 --> 17:22.194
I have so many questions from that. Well, firstly, it's just,

17:22.234 --> 17:25.882
it's just a huge acknowledgement of the work that you did, like initially, like,

17:25.938 --> 17:29.474
you know, giving a voice to communities that don't necessarily have

17:29.514 --> 17:32.666
one and doing that work. I think one of the things that's really

17:32.690 --> 17:35.202
nice of it is that you didn't have OD in the title, but you were

17:35.218 --> 17:38.762
doing OD work. You don't necessarily need that, do you,

17:38.938 --> 17:42.562
to change and influence systems? And I guess, where are you taking your playbook

17:42.618 --> 17:45.842
from? How are you knowing what to do during those times when you were

17:45.858 --> 17:49.034
looking at these big, messy, complex systems and processes and

17:49.074 --> 17:53.226
pioneering and breaking new ground? Yeah, I think two things on that.

17:53.290 --> 17:57.154
One certainly the balance of sort of

17:57.314 --> 18:02.298
working in engineers Ireland full

18:02.346 --> 18:05.744
time, studying part time, believe it or not,

18:05.824 --> 18:09.528
and being on the board for those ten years, it was probably sort of a,

18:09.576 --> 18:12.912
you know, pulling in very much in different sources at different times. And part of

18:12.928 --> 18:16.664
it would have been one just looking at the rigor

18:16.824 --> 18:20.736
of the engineering brain, particularly the chartered engineer.

18:20.800 --> 18:23.936
The chartered engineer is a leader, a problem solver,

18:24.080 --> 18:27.312
very, very, very ethical and has ethical and

18:27.328 --> 18:29.920
moral considerations that would have been a big part of my practice at the time,

18:29.952 --> 18:33.606
for obvious reasons. And the welfare of people,

18:33.750 --> 18:36.926
obviously, in engineering and the welfare of society and the sustainability piece.

18:36.950 --> 18:40.046
So I think that had a huge influence on my practice. The other piece was,

18:40.110 --> 18:44.806
we were very fortunate and belong to that an organization called the one foundation.

18:44.990 --> 18:48.558
People went to Google. It came on board with funding. So we had exposure,

18:48.606 --> 18:52.166
Garen and Danny, to some really great strategists,

18:52.270 --> 18:54.714
nod practitioners and advisors.

18:55.454 --> 18:58.702
We had funding for a period to do that. So we had great, great people

18:58.758 --> 19:02.874
advising us. But I think the third thing for me I realized was

19:03.414 --> 19:07.566
nobody essentially has it figured out. So I

19:07.590 --> 19:11.222
couldn't find anyone who had the playbook. And Michael,

19:11.278 --> 19:14.902
God bless him, you know, the most amazing CEO, didn't have the playbook, but there

19:14.918 --> 19:18.754
was a lot of trust that we just had to figure this out together.

19:19.174 --> 19:23.142
We had to empower these young people to go in the

19:23.158 --> 19:26.862
direction they wanted to go in. We had to lead them very responsibly,

19:26.918 --> 19:29.532
but we had to give them a voice. And yet there was just a lot

19:29.548 --> 19:33.084
of figuring it out as we went along. Good point, Karen. There's a playbook

19:33.124 --> 19:36.700
there now, how to do it. You know, Michael has codified it and shared

19:36.732 --> 19:40.036
it, and he's gone on to do amazing things himself. But there probably wasn't

19:40.060 --> 19:43.596
a playbook at the time. So I think that's a good reflection for

19:43.620 --> 19:46.864
OD practitioners. Very few people have it figured out.

19:47.324 --> 19:50.804
And so it's, you know, how can you create an environment and create

19:50.844 --> 19:54.196
conditions to try something, to be able to

19:54.220 --> 19:57.092
pause and reflect on that and see what did we get from that? We want

19:57.108 --> 19:59.896
to amplify that a bit more, or do we want to kill it off quickly

19:59.920 --> 20:03.160
and try something else? That was a big part of the act of practice,

20:03.192 --> 20:06.944
I'd say. Yeah. So important is that being comfortable with not knowing,

20:07.064 --> 20:10.760
sometimes it can create a defensive reaction. We feel we ought to comfort

20:10.792 --> 20:14.104
people that we know, but we don't because it's all completely new, isn't it?

20:14.184 --> 20:17.080
And so just thinking about, as you went into intel, you made that shift.

20:17.192 --> 20:21.016
What are the biggest lessons that you took from your prior experience into intel as

20:21.040 --> 20:24.600
you went in? Yeah, I think the thing that people would probably say about

20:24.632 --> 20:27.720
me, and I'm very conscious about in my practice is

20:27.752 --> 20:31.532
just making sure that we might have some great ideas.

20:31.668 --> 20:35.788
So as a senior leadership team and working with the business unit, senior team

20:35.956 --> 20:39.756
internally, we might have some great ideas. But I think for me particularly, you know,

20:39.820 --> 20:43.556
those three legs of the StU, the journalism piece and the belong to piece and

20:43.620 --> 20:46.988
the influence from engineers, Ireland and all of the clients I worked with there,

20:47.116 --> 20:50.132
I think the outside in, the customer led piece

20:50.188 --> 20:53.212
is probably the thing that I'm most passionate about and

20:53.228 --> 20:56.196
the biggest lesson learned, I would say, Danny, that I still carry with me.

20:56.220 --> 20:59.442
So if we are around a boardroom or

20:59.458 --> 21:03.642
white boarding, we might come up with some good ideas. But I think I

21:03.698 --> 21:07.218
still find that it's incredibly empowering to take a

21:07.226 --> 21:10.818
group of senior leaders and to switch up their

21:10.866 --> 21:14.098
world just by connecting them out to,

21:14.266 --> 21:17.090
as you mentioned, Danny, the system or the ecosystem.

21:17.282 --> 21:20.738
So what's the greatest pain point for the customer?

21:20.866 --> 21:24.366
Can you articulate that? What's the greatest gain points?

21:24.430 --> 21:28.326
That's not an expression, but the greatest gains

21:28.390 --> 21:31.846
you can deliver to the customer. And if an

21:31.870 --> 21:35.954
organization leadership team who are working through an OD

21:36.254 --> 21:39.582
change or growing their capabilities are strategizing, I think if

21:39.598 --> 21:43.102
they can't articulate that, it's very, very, very instrumental for them to

21:43.118 --> 21:47.022
go back and be able to find out really what are

21:47.038 --> 21:51.060
the needs of the customer. And inevitably then if you can address that,

21:51.252 --> 21:54.844
it's going to lead to a great outcome. So that's something

21:54.884 --> 21:59.060
I'm passionate about. That's something that I bring to my team

21:59.212 --> 22:02.356
in terms of supervising, guiding the team. And as a practitioner,

22:02.380 --> 22:05.492
I would always find that it's incredibly useful for the

22:05.508 --> 22:07.984
leaders and sometimes surprising for the leaders, say, oh,

22:08.604 --> 22:12.140
not quite sure, and then it becomes, okay, how do you go about finding

22:12.212 --> 22:15.482
that out? How do you go connecting to the customer internally or

22:15.498 --> 22:18.762
indeed externally to find that out? Brilliant. Thank you. So you talk there

22:18.778 --> 22:22.186
a bit about your own OD team at intel. Can you just tell

22:22.210 --> 22:25.322
us a little bit more about what that looks like? How's it structured? How do

22:25.338 --> 22:29.778
they work with the business? Yeah, for sure. So the

22:29.946 --> 22:33.354
DoD team at intel is a global team.

22:33.514 --> 22:36.458
So we're structured that we have a team in the US, we have a team

22:36.506 --> 22:40.534
in the greater Europe region, and we have a team in the greater Asia region.

22:40.854 --> 22:44.294
We're very connected, despite the different time zones.

22:44.454 --> 22:47.950
And we did put a lot of effort into, particularly in the last twelve months,

22:47.982 --> 22:52.070
defining what is our scope. So really

22:52.142 --> 22:55.594
thinking about given the

22:57.094 --> 23:00.854
pain points and what our customers want to gain, or intel customers,

23:00.894 --> 23:04.566
I mean, what are the services that we as an OD team

23:04.630 --> 23:09.260
need to deliver. So we really put a lot of effort into scoping that and

23:09.292 --> 23:12.660
deciding that there's some things we don't do in OD, but just taking time

23:12.692 --> 23:15.584
together to be really, really, really clear on what we do.

23:16.324 --> 23:19.444
And I think with that focus, Danny and Garen, it allowed us then to also

23:19.524 --> 23:22.836
look at something which is really important for OD at the moment.

23:22.940 --> 23:26.596
What are the skills. What skills do we

23:26.620 --> 23:29.804
need to be able to deliver those services? I think that has been a really

23:29.844 --> 23:33.524
interesting journey for us. Yeah, the consulting piece, the diagnosis

23:33.564 --> 23:37.230
piece, analytical piece,

23:37.302 --> 23:41.358
the ability to synthesize, as you mentioned, just, you know,

23:41.446 --> 23:44.502
getting it really crisp in terms of, you know, there's about eight different

23:44.558 --> 23:48.222
skills that we can, we can assess ourselves on. We can,

23:48.278 --> 23:51.102
we can grow ourselves on. That matrix has been really,

23:51.158 --> 23:55.294
really interesting. So wonderful discussions, I'd say, around self

23:55.334 --> 23:58.942
as instrument, which, you know, is very od, but really,

23:58.998 --> 24:03.330
you know, your level of self awareness, your ability to just

24:03.362 --> 24:07.298
be very present in your practice and your

24:07.386 --> 24:11.178
ability to sort of shift on a dime

24:11.226 --> 24:14.362
almost depending on what's emerging, depending on what comes up. So I

24:14.378 --> 24:17.938
think that we've had some great discussions and very purposeful

24:18.106 --> 24:21.466
interventions to continue to grow the team. And I'd say the last thing

24:21.490 --> 24:24.770
is just thinking about all the time. So we have the services

24:24.842 --> 24:28.236
piece, the skills piece, the standards piece, let's say Danny and Garen,

24:28.410 --> 24:31.736
the world is changing so fast. The challenges are

24:31.760 --> 24:34.960
changing so fast. Twelve months ago, there wasn't much

24:34.992 --> 24:37.564
talk about AI. Yeah, it was there. And,

24:38.384 --> 24:41.336
you know, maybe there's a chat bot popped up in the corner of your screen

24:41.400 --> 24:45.248
now and again, but now it's, you know, we're just working towards

24:45.296 --> 24:48.872
a very exciting future with AI. So all the time thinking about what are the

24:49.048 --> 24:53.312
standards, the models, the frameworks, what's cutting edge when

24:53.328 --> 24:56.898
it comes to delivering our services. So, yeah, we spend a

24:56.906 --> 24:59.698
lot of time just being very clear on that,

24:59.826 --> 25:03.226
helping each other with us constantly renewing that and that seems

25:03.250 --> 25:06.674
to serve as well. Yeah. And I guess one of the challenges with OD

25:06.714 --> 25:10.146
is that OD generally has very capable people in it and they can turn

25:10.170 --> 25:14.482
their hand to lots of different organizational challenges and issues and will bring an enterprise

25:14.538 --> 25:17.866
mindset to things. And obviously, if you are very clear, these are things that we

25:17.890 --> 25:21.210
do and these are things that we don't. Sometimes our stakeholders don't

25:21.242 --> 25:25.256
quite understand that there's boundaries. How do you either

25:25.400 --> 25:29.048
educate your stakeholders about what you can and can't do, and how do you sort

25:29.056 --> 25:32.136
of maintain discipline within the team to make sure that they're focused

25:32.160 --> 25:35.244
on doing the right things, or is it an ongoing tension to manage?

25:35.584 --> 25:38.640
Yeah, I think it's an ongoing tension. I think a couple of things on that.

25:38.712 --> 25:42.976
It rings a bell with me that back

25:43.000 --> 25:46.160
to the orchestra manager piece again, that od

25:46.272 --> 25:49.664
professionals and od practitioners are some of the most wonderful

25:49.704 --> 25:53.020
artists and performers that I've ever met and worked with.

25:53.052 --> 25:55.464
You know, they're very creative, very astute,

25:56.924 --> 26:00.604
very compassionate, courageous people. And then you try and put a framework

26:00.644 --> 26:04.064
around them and rules and structures.

26:04.364 --> 26:06.772
So there's obviously attention there.

26:06.828 --> 26:09.876
Definitely. I think it's back to

26:10.060 --> 26:13.668
the orchestra manager metaphor, why that's so powerful. For me,

26:13.716 --> 26:16.544
it's thinking about, okay, I have my harpist here,

26:16.964 --> 26:20.356
knowing what I know about that person, their background, their experience,

26:20.460 --> 26:23.740
their personality, maybe what's going on in their personal life,

26:23.852 --> 26:27.864
how am I working with that individual to allow them to perform at their best?

26:28.924 --> 26:32.892
And likewise, I have another instrument

26:32.948 --> 26:35.788
here. And how am I working with that person? Probably in a slightly different way.

26:35.836 --> 26:39.468
So I think as a manager of a team of OD

26:39.516 --> 26:42.876
practitioners, it's very much just understanding, how do I get the best

26:42.900 --> 26:45.964
at reach one of those people, knowing where they are, knowing how they tick.

26:46.084 --> 26:49.684
And then with our clients, I think it's back to Garen and Danny.

26:49.724 --> 26:52.748
Something that we probably still don't do enough of in the OD world is,

26:52.796 --> 26:56.412
which is, you know, contracting. Contracting.

26:56.548 --> 26:59.612
Contracting, and then doing a little bit more contracting. And then as we start the

26:59.628 --> 27:02.588
work, doing more contracting, and then as we get into what the work really is,

27:02.756 --> 27:06.556
re contracting, and then when we're midway contracting, because now we actually know what we're

27:06.580 --> 27:09.664
doing. I love that ABC always be contracting.

27:10.104 --> 27:13.280
Absolutely. Yeah. And so I think for me, at the start of that work,

27:13.312 --> 27:16.960
there's a bit of free framing. Again, I'm not sure if that's a word where,

27:17.072 --> 27:20.464
you know, this is good enough for now in terms of what we're doing together,

27:20.544 --> 27:23.896
but we will be constantly, constantly, constantly calibrating as we

27:23.920 --> 27:27.564
go because of type of work we're doing, the pace of the work we're doing.

27:27.984 --> 27:30.728
Yeah, here's a few stakes on the ground we can put down, for sure,

27:30.776 --> 27:34.164
Garen and Danny. But, yeah, that contracting piece is,

27:34.744 --> 27:38.142
in practice, as you both know, a very, very real part of the

27:38.158 --> 27:41.686
work we do and is an intrinsic part of that, sort of like, clarifying expectations

27:41.750 --> 27:44.674
of each other and having those sort of open conversations?

27:45.014 --> 27:48.894
I think so. I think that's very important to understand the client's

27:48.934 --> 27:52.910
needs and wants and desires. But again, I think it's incredibly powerful

27:52.942 --> 27:55.862
and something that we, based on our grovian culture,

27:56.038 --> 27:59.126
keep bringing it back to the customer. So, yes, I get

27:59.150 --> 28:02.182
that this is important to you, and this is important to you as a business

28:02.238 --> 28:06.434
unit client, if you like. But again, let's flip it to

28:06.594 --> 28:09.762
what is the customer needing? What are they looking for? What's going to be success

28:09.818 --> 28:13.170
for them? And so, again, I think that's where the tension is,

28:13.242 --> 28:16.762
Baron. There's a certain scope

28:16.778 --> 28:20.226
of work that you could agree with the client, but there's

28:20.250 --> 28:24.146
a certain scope of work that the customer is actually paying for,

28:24.170 --> 28:27.334
if you like. And so that's what we need to deliver together.

28:28.034 --> 28:31.272
That's what success looks like. So that's the

28:31.288 --> 28:34.824
tension the whole way through, I think so you're kind of, you're holding the voice

28:34.864 --> 28:37.920
of the customer through the conversations as

28:37.952 --> 28:41.016
well. The gravian culture is really interesting, isn't it? If anyone's watching

28:41.040 --> 28:44.008
this, there's a great book that Andy Grove actually wrote which became a bit of

28:44.016 --> 28:47.632
a textbook. Is it only the paranoid survive, which is possibly the best

28:47.728 --> 28:51.032
book title I've ever seen.

28:51.168 --> 28:54.816
And he's got some really big principles in there, isn't he? And it is absolutely

28:54.880 --> 28:58.320
customer obsession, isn't it? The customer has to be understood and

28:58.352 --> 29:01.696
heard throughout. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, exactly. I think there's

29:01.720 --> 29:05.464
some of those groveian principles that just immaculately stand

29:05.504 --> 29:09.024
the test of time. So the first one is being very, you know, being very

29:09.064 --> 29:12.488
results driven. And, you know, if you commit to do something

29:12.536 --> 29:15.904
for a customer, then you do absolutely whatever it takes to execute on that.

29:15.944 --> 29:19.616
So you'd sense that DNA in intel and

29:19.640 --> 29:22.752
then there's for sure the customer focus, which is a huge part of

29:22.768 --> 29:25.956
what we do. And then really, I think the other big part of what Andy

29:25.980 --> 29:29.020
and the founding, I was going to say founding fathers, I'm sure the founding

29:29.052 --> 29:32.356
mothers as well, you know, instituted in intel is just

29:32.380 --> 29:35.748
that, again, rigor and ethics and,

29:35.916 --> 29:39.340
you know, appreciating the diversity of voice and the diversity

29:39.372 --> 29:42.700
of view and the ability to have what used to be called

29:42.772 --> 29:46.716
constructive confrontation, I think in Andy's print, and that was more constructive

29:46.780 --> 29:49.948
conversation than courageous conversation. So it's probably

29:49.996 --> 29:54.210
moved on a little bit. But yeah, all those tenants are incredibly important to

29:54.362 --> 29:57.562
the work that we still do at intel today. Very much

29:57.618 --> 30:01.266
connects you to the customer. As you said, if we have a great science

30:01.330 --> 30:04.642
project internally, it's only a value if it really,

30:04.698 --> 30:08.346
really, really makes the customers heard saying. So we're super conscious of

30:08.370 --> 30:11.602
that. Fabulous. So that's told us quite

30:11.618 --> 30:14.498
a lot about your role and what you love about OD, I guess. What do

30:14.506 --> 30:17.994
you find most challenging about working in organization development?

30:18.654 --> 30:21.994
That's a great question, Danny. I think I would reflect that

30:22.334 --> 30:26.954
the work that we do is inherently challenging.

30:27.654 --> 30:31.302
And I think that's. Yeah, I think that's

30:31.318 --> 30:34.958
a great question. I think we do swim in a sea of challenging work

30:35.126 --> 30:38.414
and so definitely to my mind, that's important

30:38.534 --> 30:41.846
in terms of sort of making peace with that as an OD practitioner, the work

30:41.870 --> 30:45.632
we do is complex and it's challenging. And the way I

30:45.648 --> 30:49.120
would think about it is that it's a privilege to be doing that kind of

30:49.152 --> 30:52.600
work. You know, we're not, we're not up on the beach. We're in

30:52.712 --> 30:55.840
the water. That's choppy and challenging

30:55.952 --> 30:59.864
and, you know, again, that's, that's a really great place to be.

30:59.984 --> 31:03.824
I think the challenge probably then is just managing

31:03.864 --> 31:07.496
many of those tensions that you mentioned. So working with

31:07.560 --> 31:11.162
amazing people, allowing them to really show up and perform at

31:11.178 --> 31:14.570
their best. And I think a challenge apart from all those

31:14.602 --> 31:18.234
areas that we've covered so far, is just being very conscious as that

31:18.274 --> 31:22.610
orchestra leader of when you're watching all those moving parts

31:22.802 --> 31:26.754
and you're working with so many different stakeholders, and eventually it comes

31:26.794 --> 31:31.058
for the moment for the conductor to pick up the baton and the music begins

31:31.226 --> 31:34.306
and hopefully it's magic. How, as an

31:34.330 --> 31:37.986
odd professional, can you make sure that you take the

31:38.010 --> 31:41.650
time to then, you know, be the resilience practitioner?

31:41.722 --> 31:45.266
You know, the thing we always talk about and find the

31:45.290 --> 31:48.054
growth notes and who gives you those growth notes?

31:48.834 --> 31:51.658
And do you have a supervisor or do you have a coach or do you

31:51.666 --> 31:55.162
have a mentor? Do you have that constellation? So I think

31:55.178 --> 31:58.322
there's so much work and you could move so fast, it's not possible,

31:58.418 --> 32:01.592
I think, to tread water constantly. So I think a.

32:01.698 --> 32:04.868
A challenge, even the type of work we do and the pace of the

32:04.876 --> 32:07.892
work we do and the scale of the work we do is where can you

32:07.908 --> 32:11.620
find the time to just constantly be

32:11.772 --> 32:15.064
calibrating your own resilience? And it looks very different for everybody.

32:15.724 --> 32:19.716
And we enable our clients to do that sometimes

32:19.740 --> 32:23.092
in HR. And as OD professionals, we need to make sure that we're really good

32:23.108 --> 32:25.820
at doing that as well. So I think that's an ongoing challenge.

32:25.892 --> 32:29.862
Yeah. So is that supervision kind of mentoring consultancy

32:29.958 --> 32:33.542
model something you have in place for your OT practitioners in intel?

32:33.678 --> 32:36.902
Oh, yeah, very much, Danny. Yeah. I think that's really, really, really important. It's a

32:36.918 --> 32:40.486
part of the role that I love. So again, those kind of dual strands.

32:40.510 --> 32:43.886
So part of my role and what I get majored on is how well

32:43.910 --> 32:47.638
are my team, how are my team developing back to our

32:47.686 --> 32:50.918
services skills, huge emphasis,

32:51.046 --> 32:54.782
standards and how are they performing. Yeah.

32:54.878 --> 32:58.190
So really the wellbeing of that team and then the other part is being practitioner.

32:58.222 --> 33:02.094
So you've got skin in the game, your practice is always alive.

33:02.174 --> 33:05.394
You're very, very connected to the business and your business acumen,

33:05.854 --> 33:09.350
but for sure, yeah. The only reason

33:09.542 --> 33:13.350
that we get great impact and great results is because the team

33:13.382 --> 33:16.834
are healthy and. Well. Yeah, yeah. And I guess

33:17.294 --> 33:20.774
I think with organizations, there's often sort of view it as a choice,

33:20.814 --> 33:24.026
either we go fast or we go moderately paced.

33:24.190 --> 33:28.490
And we will emphasize sort of employee experience. But intel

33:28.682 --> 33:32.410
drives at a breakneck speed. Even Gordon Moore, one of the founding fathers, was the

33:32.482 --> 33:35.762
instigator of Moore's Law, which is Moore's Law.

33:35.898 --> 33:40.010
Yeah, well, pretty much. Moore's law is. Comes from

33:40.082 --> 33:43.938
economics. So you're pretty much saying that at its simplest, you're doubling

33:43.986 --> 33:47.282
something every two years. Yeah. So on transistors you're talking about,

33:47.298 --> 33:51.042
you're doubling, they're getting smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller all the

33:51.058 --> 33:54.480
time, but you're doubling the capability or the number of transistors

33:54.512 --> 33:58.528
that you have on that chip. So, yeah, it's just about constantly

33:58.656 --> 34:01.904
shrinking the architecture baron, but constantly

34:01.944 --> 34:05.992
doubling the performance of that. So you're really giving yourself a

34:06.008 --> 34:09.624
double whammy challenge, if you like, shrink the architecture and

34:09.784 --> 34:14.004
make it more powerful. Yeah. So this relentless march towards

34:14.744 --> 34:18.570
constant innovation, this constant competitive

34:18.642 --> 34:22.694
environment as well, yet the stats, like Glassdoor

34:22.994 --> 34:26.434
intel consistently performs exceptionally well on it.

34:26.554 --> 34:30.154
I think Glassdoor actually awarded the CEO of the year

34:30.194 --> 34:34.130
award as well. How do you have that relentless,

34:34.202 --> 34:37.658
fast pace and yet still emphasize

34:37.706 --> 34:40.762
wellbeing? And I guess, obviously, what is OD's role in that?

34:40.938 --> 34:44.513
Yeah, great. I think. I think a couple of

34:44.553 --> 34:48.625
reflections on that. I would say that maybe

34:48.649 --> 34:52.089
if I zoom out, first of all, I think the history that you're referring

34:52.121 --> 34:56.137
to is important. Karen and Danny, I think that's sort of almost

34:56.185 --> 34:59.753
an anthropological approach to, you know, that we have these, you know,

34:59.873 --> 35:03.649
sort of luminary figures. They have documented their thoughts and their

35:03.681 --> 35:07.025
philosophy, and that's alive and well in our values and culture today.

35:07.089 --> 35:10.737
So if you come and you are fortunate enough to have a role at intel,

35:10.825 --> 35:13.985
you know, the environment and, you know, the culture and, you know, the values

35:14.009 --> 35:17.758
that are incredibly tied to what we do. And I think there's a very

35:17.806 --> 35:21.046
strong sense, particularly past who was mentored by Andy

35:21.070 --> 35:24.966
Grove, actually, and the senior leadership team and everybody that

35:24.990 --> 35:27.590
I work with, we would have a view at a very high level that,

35:27.702 --> 35:30.942
you know, we're here for, especially as I get older. We're here for

35:31.118 --> 35:34.750
a time at intel, but really we do a great job if we

35:34.822 --> 35:39.070
move the organization forward and pass it on more

35:39.102 --> 35:42.480
healthy to the next generation, which are always coming up through the ranks.

35:42.512 --> 35:46.080
So I think that sort of philosophy right back to the founding

35:46.112 --> 35:49.392
fathers that we mentioned is important. I think the second thing, Karen and

35:49.408 --> 35:52.696
Danny, I don't know about your own views. I think employees are just incredibly smart.

35:52.840 --> 35:56.884
This sense that if an organization is in status

35:57.224 --> 36:01.536
and isn't changing, well, that's probably a little bit worrying given

36:01.640 --> 36:05.640
the environment and the world that we live in. So I think employees almost expect

36:05.712 --> 36:09.516
that there is a constant force and a constant push to

36:09.540 --> 36:13.060
be better, to raise the bar, to have

36:13.092 --> 36:16.500
very high standards. And I think OD plays a hugely important

36:16.572 --> 36:19.660
part in that, not only to make sure that the performance of the organization

36:19.732 --> 36:23.420
is great, but clearly if we do that well,

36:23.532 --> 36:27.108
then that has a very important role on the

36:27.196 --> 36:31.220
employee, something I feel very passionate about. We sometimes sort of ask employees

36:31.252 --> 36:35.236
to show up or talk about them in fractions and we're

36:35.260 --> 36:38.672
all very whole, holistic, rounded individuals.

36:38.768 --> 36:42.008
I see. Probably because I've been here now ten years, you know,

36:42.136 --> 36:45.456
the great environment that intel has, you know,

36:45.560 --> 36:48.824
challenging people and supporting people, that has an impact

36:48.864 --> 36:52.024
on the individuals, has an impact on their teams, it has an impact on their

36:52.064 --> 36:56.160
families, it has an impact on their children, it has an impact on the amazing

36:56.192 --> 36:59.072
things they can go and do outside of work in terms of the volunteering and

36:59.088 --> 37:03.044
the charity work and the. So that sort of philosophy is bigger.

37:04.284 --> 37:07.852
So yeah, maybe that's a little bit of a philosophical answer, but it's very

37:07.908 --> 37:11.308
real and tangible on the ground as well. The work we do at OD should

37:11.356 --> 37:15.236
create better organizations and that has a very real impact on

37:15.420 --> 37:18.812
real individuals, I would say. Yeah, I guess a lot of

37:18.828 --> 37:22.436
organizations, it's the senior leadership that have to persuade them to embark on

37:22.460 --> 37:26.148
this relentless word. I guess you're describing. It comes intrinsically because people

37:26.316 --> 37:28.572
want to be challenged and they see it's part of it as well.

37:28.628 --> 37:32.470
Fascinating. What kind of impacts have you seen from your efforts?

37:32.542 --> 37:36.310
We love examples of pieces of work that you're particularly proud of.

37:36.422 --> 37:39.502
It's really important to share those things. What comes to mind?

37:39.678 --> 37:42.918
Yeah, I think for obvious reasons it's a little bit difficult to

37:42.926 --> 37:46.342
talk about some specifics in relation to intel and some of the work we do.

37:46.398 --> 37:49.434
I think the impact is, again,

37:49.774 --> 37:53.686
multifaceted. So I think definitely if you're working with an

37:53.710 --> 37:58.014
organization, you're going to feel the indicators of organisation health,

37:58.174 --> 38:02.166
how well the organisation has changed. Very passionate again on how

38:02.190 --> 38:05.394
would you measure that success? Well, go ask the customer.

38:06.094 --> 38:09.542
And something sometimes we overlook, but hopefully, you know, if we can

38:09.558 --> 38:13.342
get some indicators from the customer, I think that that is impact and it

38:13.358 --> 38:16.374
looks very different customer to customer. But I think that's a very, very, very important

38:16.454 --> 38:20.262
touchstone again, to come back to that, hopefully in

38:20.278 --> 38:24.054
the organization as you, as you work the senior leadership

38:24.094 --> 38:27.154
team. I think I would see now again,

38:27.494 --> 38:31.190
having been here for a number of years, Garen and Danny, but the senior leadership

38:31.222 --> 38:35.038
team probably should also come away impacted

38:35.086 --> 38:38.414
in a way that they have their organization capabilities

38:38.574 --> 38:42.534
but also their senior leadership team capabilities. And I mentioned that because

38:42.694 --> 38:46.342
if I work with an organization for twelve days or twelve weeks or

38:46.358 --> 38:50.094
twelve months and eventually the contract ends and I'm stepping away,

38:50.214 --> 38:54.094
there will be something. And over the years, whether it's

38:54.254 --> 38:58.254
financial crash or Covid or an ash cloud over Iceland or

38:58.414 --> 39:02.286
a ship jammed in the Suez Canal, whatever it is, I'm always

39:02.350 --> 39:05.914
interested to see that the senior leadership team, if you've grown their capabilities,

39:06.374 --> 39:09.910
they can still manage to cope with that. We never discussed that.

39:09.942 --> 39:13.318
That was never in our plans. But you've left the organization team,

39:13.486 --> 39:17.126
the senior leadership team in such a healthy way that they can cope with the

39:17.150 --> 39:20.422
next unexpected thing. So I think growing the learning

39:20.478 --> 39:23.662
capability of the senior leadership team for me would always be a really,

39:23.718 --> 39:27.022
really, really important indicator to look at. And hopefully so in that

39:27.038 --> 39:30.494
way, the work that we do in OD is exponential. You know, it's living on

39:30.574 --> 39:33.670
long after we've stepped away. Yes, I say, we often say that we were temporary

39:33.702 --> 39:37.598
scaffolding for whoever we're working with. And kind of part of that OD philosophy

39:37.646 --> 39:41.142
and mindset is leaving them better equipped to carry on in a

39:41.158 --> 39:44.204
sustainable way. So. Yeah, completely with you on that. So,

39:44.244 --> 39:48.596
Aidan, one of the questions we would like to know is what's

39:48.620 --> 39:52.580
the biggest lesson that you've learned in your role so far? Yeah, I think

39:52.652 --> 39:55.756
actually even preparing for today has been very interesting. Just reflecting back,

39:55.820 --> 39:59.020
I think if I go back over my career,

39:59.132 --> 40:02.532
Danny and Garen, at a personal level, I would have

40:02.588 --> 40:06.584
had a certain approach to trying to

40:06.884 --> 40:10.912
be very, very well prepared in terms of expertise and models

40:10.968 --> 40:14.792
and frameworks and not quite, you know, working with the client that

40:14.808 --> 40:18.456
I want to teach this to them. But bringing a

40:18.480 --> 40:21.564
model or framework very central to the practice that I have,

40:22.624 --> 40:25.624
you know, a little bit fearful that I didn't know enough, a little bit fearful

40:25.664 --> 40:29.736
that I wasn't good enough, a little bit fearful that these incredible engineers and technicians

40:29.880 --> 40:33.608
were so brilliant. And I'm so in awe of how could I ever bring value

40:33.656 --> 40:37.030
to them. And I think the biggest lesson what probably just comes with time

40:37.062 --> 40:41.062
and practice is that, as we mentioned earlier on in change and transformation,

40:41.158 --> 40:44.430
absolutely nobody has it figured out. So you're working

40:44.462 --> 40:48.470
with brilliant people who I'm still in awe of, but the

40:48.542 --> 40:51.902
reason you're in the room is to help

40:51.958 --> 40:55.350
them create value. And to help them create value,

40:55.422 --> 40:58.678
you have to hold up the mirror that we mentioned. You have to be comfortable

40:58.726 --> 41:02.316
with challenge. The environment

41:02.420 --> 41:05.996
won't always be, it won't always be safe in virtual commerce.

41:06.020 --> 41:08.884
It'll always be supportive, but we're going to have to go to the edges.

41:08.924 --> 41:12.652
We're going to have to push things. And again, that brings me back to that

41:12.708 --> 41:15.876
sort of self as instrument, but really just your own ability to

41:15.900 --> 41:19.036
be self aware and to have done a lot of self work. So I think

41:19.060 --> 41:22.812
probably I'd nail it in two ways. One is the biggest lesson learned is

41:22.828 --> 41:27.188
that, again, nobody has it figured out, but two is that if you're,

41:27.266 --> 41:30.576
if you are to step into this arena, which is a wonderful, wonderful, amazing arena,

41:30.600 --> 41:33.952
and I know you're both compassionate about OD and sporting OD and

41:34.008 --> 41:37.168
the work you do outside of your own work as well, I think it's just

41:37.256 --> 41:41.216
not being afraid to do that self exploration. So if

41:41.240 --> 41:44.816
it's formally, you know, like therapy

41:44.880 --> 41:48.552
and counseling, or if it's for you, if it's yoga and extreme

41:48.608 --> 41:52.328
sports, just dance or circling

41:52.376 --> 41:55.542
or what, you know, just whatever the, whatever the thing is that's going

41:55.558 --> 41:59.270
to get you to really, really, really understand more about yourself and maybe

41:59.302 --> 42:02.550
even the podcast today, a little bit more about your own journey,

42:02.622 --> 42:05.798
a little bit more about what informs your practice, a little bit more about what

42:05.926 --> 42:09.754
triggers you, a little bit more about what your particular gifts and talents are

42:10.254 --> 42:13.462
and bring that to the party, I think nobody has

42:13.478 --> 42:17.214
it figured out. So if you can bring that to the party and help

42:17.254 --> 42:21.018
the organization create value for the customer, then I

42:21.026 --> 42:23.802
think that's all you can do. So I'd be far more, I think,

42:23.938 --> 42:27.202
passionate, and I would give myself more of a break in terms of the way

42:27.218 --> 42:30.762
I approach things today than I would have done 20 years ago, ten years ago.

42:30.818 --> 42:34.214
I think that's, that's a really important part of the journey. Really important lesson.

42:34.954 --> 42:38.834
Yeah. That self is instrument, it's the space that you create, isn't it?

42:38.914 --> 42:42.618
And giving people the, making it safe enough for people to be open

42:42.666 --> 42:46.132
and say they don't know as well. You just mentioned the

42:46.228 --> 42:49.264
mirror thing has been consistent thread throughout the conversation.

42:49.724 --> 42:53.148
What are some of the techniques that you would potentially deploy to

42:53.236 --> 42:56.884
help hold that mirror, obviously, you're in different settings. Sometimes you're with a whole team,

42:56.964 --> 43:01.492
sometimes you're one to one. Sometimes it might be a

43:01.508 --> 43:04.812
more intimate conversation in the corridor, whatever. What are some of the things that

43:04.828 --> 43:08.484
you would deploy to help people understand the mirror? Yeah.

43:08.604 --> 43:11.924
So I think it definitely depends by context and just being very

43:11.964 --> 43:15.594
sensitive to the environment and who you're dealing with and the,

43:15.714 --> 43:19.282
you know, the sort of relationships that are there and the politics that

43:19.298 --> 43:23.042
are there. But I think sometimes it's something very, very, very simple, Danny and Garen,

43:23.098 --> 43:26.570
and as you both know it, sometimes it's just. And why would you do that

43:26.722 --> 43:30.226
and just sit back and, you know, so I'm a great fan of

43:30.250 --> 43:34.114
just scratching my head and sort of, what would

43:34.154 --> 43:37.650
the benefit of that possibly be? And then, you know, and then just let.

43:37.722 --> 43:40.914
So it's maybe not confrontational and direct,

43:40.994 --> 43:44.334
but maybe it's just asking sort of, you know, again,

43:44.414 --> 43:48.318
back to the journalism days, just asking a really inquisitive, genuinely curious question

43:48.366 --> 43:51.638
to find out why the places would they go down that road and if they

43:51.646 --> 43:54.954
can articulate great. Or sometimes that opens up and,

43:55.374 --> 43:58.350
you know, a great exploration conversation. So I think simple,

43:58.502 --> 44:01.414
probing questions are probably the way to go,

44:01.454 --> 44:05.102
rather than. Yeah, I know we say holding up the mirror that comes. That can

44:05.118 --> 44:08.942
sound very blunt and very confrontational, and sometimes it does need to be.

44:08.958 --> 44:12.844
But more often than not, it's asking a good, curious question, I think is

44:13.004 --> 44:16.620
hugely valuable. And let the silas do. Yeah, let the silence do the heavy

44:16.652 --> 44:20.420
lifting afterwards, isn't it? Yeah. Giving people that

44:20.452 --> 44:24.164
space just to articulate their thoughts, kind of. They draw their own conclusions,

44:24.204 --> 44:27.796
don't they? Just having that opportunity. 100%.

44:27.900 --> 44:31.104
Yeah. Fabulous. So I think just one last question.

44:32.764 --> 44:35.024
We were so excited about this conversation.

44:36.284 --> 44:39.542
Yeah. We'll go for one last question. We'll squeeze every last second out of

44:39.558 --> 44:42.886
this. Brilliant. So just. There'll be all sorts of people

44:42.950 --> 44:46.470
listening to the podcast. They might already be doing OD or considering a career

44:46.502 --> 44:49.398
in organization development. What would you say to somebody who's thinking about that?

44:49.486 --> 44:53.126
What advice would you give them? Oh, fabulous. Well, yeah, I would

44:53.150 --> 44:57.622
say it's a wonderful, wonderful, very diverse, very challenging,

44:57.678 --> 45:01.350
very fulfilling space to work in. And I would say there's no

45:01.382 --> 45:04.986
rush. So I think, genuinely, when you step into the

45:05.010 --> 45:08.218
space, you do have to back to, maybe for the last time, the metaphor of

45:08.226 --> 45:11.034
the orchestra manager. You don't have to know what sort of instrument you are.

45:11.074 --> 45:14.362
You know, you do have to know. Are you a piano? Are you a guitar?

45:14.418 --> 45:18.094
Are you a harp? Or maybe you're on the drums. And so,

45:18.634 --> 45:21.214
you know, what do you uniquely bring to the space?

45:21.914 --> 45:25.530
How do you operate? So I think plenty of

45:25.562 --> 45:28.946
time on the life experience, the self

45:29.010 --> 45:33.442
work, just don't be afraid to go off and explore. So you

45:33.458 --> 45:37.026
could try something very, very different altogether and benefit from that. You could

45:37.210 --> 45:40.930
be on a board and volunteer somewhere and get something great from

45:40.962 --> 45:44.498
that. So I think it's a wonderful space

45:44.546 --> 45:48.338
to work in. I would say enjoy building up a really rich experience,

45:48.506 --> 45:51.410
and I know it's applied for both of you as well. You can then bring

45:51.442 --> 45:54.810
that very, very, very diverse experience to the OD field,

45:54.882 --> 45:58.512
but quite possibly along the journey, you won't be calling it OD at

45:58.528 --> 46:02.272
all. And then with all those. That wonderful

46:02.328 --> 46:05.432
range of instruments that you can play and the great understanding that

46:05.448 --> 46:08.944
you can bring, maybe someday you realize

46:09.024 --> 46:12.448
that's OD. I'm perfectly equipped to go work in the OD space.

46:12.616 --> 46:15.816
Brilliant. Well, thank you so much. We're hugely appreciative of your time.

46:15.840 --> 46:19.512
You know, you're an intensely busy person as well. We're taking so much away from

46:19.528 --> 46:22.686
this conversation. You know, the importance of holding up the mirror,

46:22.880 --> 46:26.994
never letting go of that curiosity, the importance of simplicity

46:27.034 --> 46:30.458
and simple questions, not questioning yourself too much, just understand

46:30.546 --> 46:34.378
the importance of selfless instrument, the importance of having real clarity

46:34.426 --> 46:37.714
in terms of what you do and the value you bring and having boundaries around

46:37.754 --> 46:41.546
that, too. And also the role of being in the orchestra and

46:41.570 --> 46:45.210
how you actually make sure that you get the best music out of everyone.

46:45.282 --> 46:48.746
And it sounds like a lot of this is without ego. That part

46:48.770 --> 46:51.194
that is putting it to the side allows you to do great work. It's really

46:51.234 --> 46:53.906
heartening to know that people like you out in the field doing great work in

46:53.930 --> 46:57.226
organizations like intel. So I know people have got a lot from it.

46:57.250 --> 47:00.346
So thank you so much. And a word of warning, I'll be back to both

47:00.370 --> 47:03.722
of you because I'm doing an external benchmarking exercise at the moment, so I want

47:03.738 --> 47:07.586
to pick your brains and what you're hearing and the clients you're working with

47:07.610 --> 47:11.594
and what's going on in your world. So you owe me one now. A very

47:11.634 --> 47:14.866
fair trade. Fair trade. Brilliant.

47:14.890 --> 47:18.170
Thanks so much. Really appreciate it. Thanks a million, folks. Thanks,