Time to Think and the Power of the Thinking Environment with Maryse Barak

What does it take to create a space where people can think clearly, independently and well?

In this episode of OrgDev with Garin & Dani, we speak with Maryse Barak, a member of the global Faculty of Time to Think, about the power of the Thinking Environment.

We explore why the quality of people’s thinking is shaped by the conditions around them, and why attention, equality, ease and powerful questions matter so much in leadership, coaching, facilitation and organisational life.

This conversation is about listening more deeply, interrupting less, and creating meetings and conversations where people can think for themselves with greater clarity, courage and independence.

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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

Find out more at www.distinction.live 

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Transcript

(00:00) Hi and welcome to the org dev podcast. So how many bad decisions in organizations are actually thinking problems and not capability problems? Because most organizations say they want better ideas, better collaboration, and better leadership thinking while constantly interrupting people, rushing conversations, and rewarding whoever speaks most or fastest.

(00:23) Today we're joined from sunny South Africa by Maurice Barack, founding global faculty member of Nancy Klein's Time to Think. Time to think is a global phenomenon that has for the past 40 years transformed how leaders and teams create the conditions for clearer thinking, deeper attention and better conversations.

(00:40) Clients work has also had a deep influence across coaching, facilitation, leadership development, and organizational practice, which is why we're so pleased that Maurice, a recognized leader in the field, has agreed to join us. Maurice is an executive coach, master facilitator, mentor, and leadership developer. Her extensive career includes working with exec teams in large multinationals and NOS's and is regularly invited to be on the faculty for exec leadership programs by a number of South African business schools. Maurice is certified to deliver

(01:07) and teach how others deliver time to think programs built on a thinking environment and she's a contributor to the book team coaching artists at work. She joins us from Cape Town in South Africa and we also want to say a huge thank you to Dr. Louise Vanin a former guest of ours who connected us to Maurice and it's been an absolute pleasure to get to know her so far.

(01:25) So, so thank you so much for joining us today. [music] [music] [music] We're delighted to have you with us and it's been a lovely opportunity to revisit NY's work and just kind of reread her books and and get up to date with the new books that she's published as well since we we last read them. So just to kick us off, can you just paint a picture of the work that you do and just bring it to life for our listeners? >> Yeah. Oh, I like I like that question.

(01:59) Bring it to life because it is very enlivening work. So most of my time to think work at present is in large multinationals and our local organizations in South Africa. I work with executive teams and the key motivation for working with the teams is because they really want to be able to think better together the executive team around issues of importance or complexity.

(02:30) And so I am invited to help them run their meetings and help them establish the conditions where good thinking can begin to thrive both individually and collectively. So I do that and then I teach the smaller more in-depth programs for people who really want to learn the work for themselves and take them wherever they would. >> Brilliant. Lovely. Thank you.

(02:52) And so how did you first come across time to think? Where did where did that journey start for you? >> Oh, so it started oh 26 years ago actually. I was um with a group of consultants. We were looking together at a project that a couple of them had that they wanted some collaboration in their thinking about a large project and there was a woman there a marvelous woman that I want to mention her name Margaret Legion.

(03:23) She was an economist and a South African who had recently returned from exile in the UK. And she during this meeting said to everybody, you know, it would be so much more efficient if we all partnered up and just had three minutes each way to think about our own perspectives on this project, listen to each other and swap and see what collective thinking we can contribute to.

(03:51) And I was lucky enough to be partnered with her. And she listened to me for these three minutes and then I did the same for her. But something happened to me. I was just it was one of those, you know. And I said to her, "What? What did what were you doing?" And she said, "Well, I was listening." No, no, no. I I just felt so intelligent.

(04:13) She said, "Yeah, that's what attention can do for a human being." And she was the first one who came to South Africa, as I said, from the UK, having learned from Nancy. And I just said, "I want to know what you've learned. Teach me." And so I began learning. So Margaret Lee, she's a worthwhile name to announce. She had a huge impact on South Africa.

(04:35) >> You've had the opportunity to work directly and learn directly from Nancy Klein as well, haven't you? >> Oh, well that's a treat and a privilege indeed. So because of Margaret who was a close friend of Nancy. Um I think it was about 2004 2005. Nancy came to Cape Town four times that year for eight of us.

(04:53) eight people who had been introduced to the work by Margaret and really developed a passion or fell in love with it and Nancy had a strong feeling that South Africa needed this work and she just kept coming back and teaching us until we were qualified to teach it ourselves and begin to work it. So and and we get we had extraordinary opportunities and between the group of eight we practiced and practiced with each other and supported each other.

(05:26) It was although we were each working for ourselves there was no real competition between us um as we developed the work deepened our capability in it and began to offer it to organizations. So working with Nancy was exquisite. um slow working with her. >> For people who are listening who might not be familiar with time to think or they've heard of it but they're not really sure kind of what sits underneath it, can you just explain in layman's terms for people what what we're talking about? >> Yeah, I'd love to do that. So it it's

(05:58) very much based on a key question that drove Nancy many many years ago. That's an exquisitly unusual question and an imperative for now and it was how do we enable people to think for themselves with courage and with rigor? How do we do that? And in her early years she was a teacher and that was a question that really drove her exploration and observation.

(06:27) And in those schools in which she worked, she noticed one thing, which is that human beings think well for themselves with a with this courage and rigor when they are being treated well by the people with whom they are while they are thinking. And she was so curious by what is it then you know how are we to be to create these conditions? And through her observations, she named what she saw people doing, behaving.

(06:57) And these behaviors are called the 10 components. So, attention, equality, appreciation, ease, the welcoming of feeling, difference, etc. And she began to develop that and it became what what we call now time to think. It's a set of behaviors that we do with each other that enable people to really experience the freedom to be themselves, think for themselves.

(07:26) It's a really interesting stance that you take though, isn't it? That you want people to think for themselves. And it's almost like a fundamental belief that the answer's in the person. You just need to give them space to think it through almost. And I think for a lot of people for example in coaching they feel as if they need to ask the clever question or you know to try and just open some kind of insight.

(07:46) So how is it how would it be different to practice it in in reality? So can I just take a step back? I want to just sort of um articulate the assumptions on which this work is based. And so one key assumption is the assumption that people can indeed think for themselves because that's that's the big one.

(08:06) And another assumption is that when I listen to you with with genuine interest in where you will go to next and with no interruption, you will continue to think for yourself with increased depth and range. So those two are are are big assumptions on which this on which this work is based. And so in coaching, what the work I do can be applied really to any coaching model because all coaching models are deeply rooted in the capacity of the coach to give superb listening attention.

(08:45) Right? But then there is this other thing that says, "Oh, I can see where you're going now. [snorts] Surely my question will just get you there." Right? And and it all works in the time to think way of being a coach. The and I said this already, the attention is we listening for what you're going to say next because we do not know.

(09:09) And the other assumption is that you are the expert of your own situation. And if I can keep um an encouraging attention or a couple questions that are really clean and open, I mean there's a beautiful question that when a person pauses and, you know, looks back at you and says, "Well, I'm done." before deciding where you think they should go, I just ask, "Well, what more do you think or feel or want to say?" And I wait.

(09:39) and [clears throat] and the thinker just suddenly goes off on another wave of thinking because very often people restrict and censor themselves. So to be faced with a coach who is so deeply interested in you and where you are going, who doesn't have an answer for you, but who has a strong assumption that you do hold the key to whatever it is that you are wanting to, you know, what dilemma you want to resolve.

(10:09) that energetically gives the client such courage, you know, to continue uh to be unafraid to say things they might have never said or to unpack, you know, um areas of mind and heart that they haven't unpacked before or to face their own limiting assumptions that may be in their way of accomplishing what they want to accomplish.

(10:32) So that's a much longer answer than I thought I was going to give. Yeah, >> surely like you know I'm a I'm a qualified coach. I'm being paid well to do this. I need to demonstrate my expertise and my value. This doesn't quite fit in this kind of model that I've got here. >> No. So that speaks directly to the development of coaches ability to be present in the moment and to begin to recognize that the quality of their presence and that the quality of their attention is all that the other needs.

(11:06) Okay? Not 100% of the time because sometimes your client wants to know your perspective and you have one. Yeah. So, but there's a beautiful um a quote of NY's that I just think is brilliant and it's specifically for coaches. It's a question she asks. She says, "How do I know as a coach that what I am about to say is more important than what you are about to think?" It's a profound question.

(11:38) So that's always the you know it's always present that dilemma that that uh that challenge and and Garen I have to say it is hard to be a coach in this because you are there's a little voice that says oh my gosh I haven't said anything for 35 minutes and they are paying me for this you know but then when your client lights up because they have discovered something for themselves or maybe because they have confronted something that they haven't for a long time or they begin to see where their own responsibility lies.

(12:11) You think, well, how could I not do this work that empowers that enables you? >> I just think it's absolutely fascinating because it's that's real breakthrough work, isn't it? Because in so many ways in organizations, we're conditioned not to think for ourselves. then you're allow it's one thing for the coach to get you through a particular episode with clever questions but you're equipping them with the capacity for whatever comes ahead that they do have the tools within them if they give themselves enough time they can navigate

(12:39) their way through it so I can imagine there's some quite profound breakthroughs and moments for people as they're starting to realize that they can think for themselves >> yeah there are many many indeed and and I have to admit in all frankness it's not for everyone because of the deep conditioning that we have all been brought up with that actually I can't think for myself I need an expert and and this is not to say we don't use experts when we need them we need information we need expertise so all of that is part of but many people exactly

(13:14) as you've said have to overcome a hurdle which is the a deeply embedded assumption that says I can do this this but think for myself through here no I need somebody else's thinking. And so to overcome that hurdle takes time and it takes ease and it takes assurance in the thinker in front of me that they have all they need.

(13:38) They've come so far in their lives. They can do the next steps too. >> Yeah. And I think related to that, I think we talked about it when we had the premeate. You talked about not all leaders actually want people to think independently. They might think they do and they say, "I want people to think independently.

(13:54) I want people to take ownership to step up, be accountable, but actually when it comes to it, they might not really want what they they get as a result of people thinking independently. >> Yeah, I do think it's a leadership issue that to say what kind of a leader are you uh what do you aspire to be? Because there is a huge gap between saying I I aspire to be a leader that is genuinely interested in how my team thinks and I aspire to believe that diverse thinking creates the best solution but how I actually behave is a little distant from

(14:31) that. But if there's willingness in a leader we've all got to learn stuff. Me too. you know that if there's willingness to move through that journey because it does take practice then the results of you know rigorous collaborative thinking are extraordinary. You never know you never know where the best piece of solution will come from.

(14:56) How do you enable your team to be bold enough to give it you know especially if it goes contrary to the usual grade right so you started to mention teams there which was the other angle I wanted to explore. We've talked a bit about coaching reading NY's book I think she says team meetings are one of the most powerful vehicles for team thinking and the time to think the thinking environment has quite a particular model to support people to have better meetings um support team thinking so can you unpack that a little bit for us and just explain what that

(15:21) looks like. So it again based on those original assumptions that I said that everyone has what it takes to think superbly and that the way we behave with each other will enable everyone to do so. And then there of course the 10 components there that we haven't quite unpacked. Tension, equality, ease. Those are are are really important.

(15:44) But a a team meeting has certain structures. One is that you will always begin by hearing every voice and we do that in a round. You know very often people have check-ins which are wonderful ways to start. A round is a little more structured because everyone knows when their turn will come and you know that when you speak you are guaranteed that nobody will interrupt or ask.

(16:09) So already the mind can relax because it knows it will not be interrupted. you know that everyone will be looking at you with interest. Yeah. With curiosity uh with appreciation. So we always begin with around and usually it has a positive question. I mean if it's a team it it could be you know what's one thing that's going well in the project that's gratifying for you and you here or in your own life whatever you know there's a positive question because just beginning in that way shifts the atmosphere already. It's it's a it's an

(16:41) attitude of appreciation that we know from the neuroscientists what occurs in the brain when we do that. And then we have an agenda. And an agenda that's crafted out of questions rather than topics is something that really has the potential to create far greater efficiency because I mean if you coming to a meeting and you see that one of the agenda items for instance is what else can we do to retain our top talent? Let's just say so no matter who you are whether you're an engineer or an actuary you see that's on the agenda you have

(17:19) thoughts to contribute it's not just HR so we we go through learning how to craft questions based on the outcomes we would like to achieve within the meeting and its constraints of time and the number of people etc. So an agenda that is in questions and then we when I run a meeting very often with each agenda item I'll have pairs think about it for a short while and have a dialogue before hearing from every voice because the moment pairs consider something together the quality of the collective thinking that you will harvest later is far

(18:02) richer. So there are a lot of many structures but key in all of these is that the 10 components of the thinking environment are held throughout the meeting. >> Do you think it's the the right moment to unpack some of those 10 components now because we've touched on them. >> So I mean already in our threesome here they're beautifully present in the ways that you are interviewing.

(18:27) So you know attention I suppose would be the great integrator of all 10 and the definition of attention is listening interest in where the person will go to next in their thinking and with no interrupt. This quality this it's a it's an extraordinary quality that human beings have an an abundance of you know and what helps me in this interview is the way that the two of you are looking at me.

(18:55) you know, you're warm and you've got a smile on your face and you're interested and that seems, you know, that makes me feel at ease and it sparks. Another of these components is equality is the idea that you and I are equal thinkers. No matter our differences, no matter our rank and power, as thinkers, we are equal. And so that's an attitudinal behavior.

(19:20) But also we give each other equal time in our meetings always. No matter what the rank, we give each other equal time and we certainly don't interrupt. Another one, a beautiful unusual one business-wise is ease. So that's not one that is usually on, you know, on on on corporate value systems. Ease, some of them have urgency.

(19:46) So ease, I love I love the definition of ease. It's it's discarding internal urgency. It's an awareness that there's in where we work there will always be urgency. And these days it's intensify. But in terms of a thinking environment, how do we create internal ease? Because if I can do that through whichever way I do and people have their own different ways, then the people around me will be able to think better.

(20:19) if I am if I demonstrate or express that ease. So we then there's appreciation which is seeing what is good and right and saying so about human beings and about situations and people think better you know when they know they're appreciated. So the appreciation really matters. And I think what I enjoyed when I was rereading the books was just that idea that appreciation is not a nice to have that it it it it really matters.

(20:43) If you're you're concerned about people being able to do their best and perform brilliantly and bring their whole, you know, be their whole selves, then that appreciation is really really important for for people and their their brains. >> Yeah. And it's not a tick box. You know, there's always a danger when you've got things like the 10 components that people will just sort of tick them tick.

(21:02) I've appreciated three people today. >> So it's how do you practice being an appreciative human being? So how do you notice your colleagues and because people want to contribute? How do you notice their contributions? Not only their skill but their qualities of character and say so. >> But that's such an important thing, isn't it? Because like for example, if you take leadership teams, one of the things that we hear quite a lot is a lot of leaders work in a vacuum.

(21:27) Very not so often their teams will tell them they're doing a good job. the CEOs aren't necessarily very nurturing. So they they do live in a vacuum. So that appreciation is a good way of creating that environment where people feel as if they are actually valuable and they're making a contribution, isn't it? It's a and I think I read in the book was it the ratio is like 5:1.

(21:47) So five parts positive to one part critic, which is a lovely ratio, isn't it? And often quite countercultural to many organizations. Yeah, I'm just trying to remember that's based on the research they did longitudinal research on relationships, the Gotman, the Gotman Institute on genuine, you know, married relationships like 37 years.

(22:10) And what they found in those is that the relationships that lasted well, you know, that were rich had that ratio of 5:1, five appreciations to every criticism. So that's where that comes from. So at work it would be good even if we did three to one. >> One to one would [laughter] be some places. But that but I guess in a way that also gives you the legitimate right to give the critique then doesn't it? Because you've you've seen that appreciative part. Okay.

(22:41) Now when there's critique it's it's like you can see it in context. >> Yeah. Yeah. People often think that if you appreciate then you will never give straight feedback and that is not so because appreciation develops the connection between us, the trust, the knowing that you see me but also the assurance that you will tell me the truth.

(23:05) Because if we're working and performance isn't what it's desired, we have to be able to say what is so to give direct information which doesn't erode from appreciating a quality of character that the person has. But you've still got to tell them what isn't working. And the same I've got to be able to receive what isn't working in the way that I'm performing.

(23:27) I have to be able to trust that it's coming from this place. So people tend to look at appreciation as the soft fluffy that will just not generate rigor. It is not. So as long as it is genuine >> and also I think sometimes if people are developing the muscle of showing appreciation in its most basic people like well well done but appreciation is actually really looking for things that are well done isn't it like and and I guess in our many of our hybrid environments that we're in we have to really seek out and be and look for it

(23:59) intentionally don't we >> and that's the practice that's the practice that's the practice of seeing you know what is it about view that I appreciate what quality of character what do I notice and then in the situations that are might be that might be terrible what is actually beginning to come through that I know so we are practicing seeing what is good and what is right which doesn't mean denying what is not working that I mean those are the paradoxes that we're working with so notice in your colleagues what what

(24:34) shoots tiny green shoots of new strengths are appearing. You know, people who've never confronted someone in a meeting, suddenly they dare disagree to be to be able to notice that and afterwards say, "I noticed that was courageous." So, another one of the components. It's actually an interesting one because I was working with mentors this week, a reflection.

(24:59) They're they're senior execs in a business and they're mentoring young leaders. So I was only working with the mentors and one of the questions that came up genuinely on Tuesday was how do I manage their feelings my own and my mentees? Such a cool question. Um and so feelings is a component in the sense that it is only after sufficient release of feelings that thinking returns.

(25:28) And we all know this, you know, we know it in our bones like when you're really angry, you you can't think well, right? Or when you're in deep grief. And so, how do we um enable ourselves as we mature to to be okay with people's feelings and our own to welcome feelings? We don't have to, you know, when we're at work, we don't have to to take care of people and do things for them.

(25:55) We just have to be there because the moment feelings are expressed and the context is one of welcome and not like what do we do then the feeling passes and some stability returns. So the ability to welcome feelings again it's not a very you know common practice at work you know and also there's a very little range of feelings are allowed usually you can get angry that's okay and you can get like overjoyed when something's gone but anything else you know keep it at home we don't know how to deal with it so I mean I'm just interested in how can we

(26:35) be human beings at work so that's feelings Um encouragement is a beautiful component which which really means giving courage to each other to go to the unexplored edge of thinking which has a lot to do with giving attention. Giving courage it's not rah it's just being there so interested that the person will dare go on. Yeah.

(27:02) Will dare experiment with their thought and say it out loud. Um and it also disables internal competition which is a again in in business there's a lot of internal competition in teams who can think better who can say whatever you said a little bit better than you and that erodess the capacity for the group to think well together.

(27:26) >> Hi we're just pausing this interview for a moment. Have you ever finished an episode of the org dev podcast and wish you had a cheat sheet that summarizes all of the key points? Us too, so we made one. It's called from [music] pod to practice. And each week in our newsletter will share a two-page summary of the latest org dev episode.

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(28:05) live to get the latest from pod to practice in your inbox and let us know what you think. We'd love to get your feedback. >> So it's interesting a bit of a live example for us. So because a lot of teams are quite stuck, aren't they? Maybe one part one team or one element of the organization's taken a position and another one's taken a position.

(28:21) So you know for example we're working with one client I think the word that these was like mutually exasperated with each other which is which is a wonderful term isn't it? So like if you're doing the if you're doing the time to think process how do you start to move teams like into a position where they can start to have that kind of conversation where it sounds like you know the emotional processing part is is an important part of it. Well, that happens a lot.

(28:47) And so if the team firstly for me I need to know that the team has expressed their willingness to learn and to think together not to give up their perspectives not that but to learn that so the willingness is present. So if willingness is present, we do rounds, you know, depending on the size of the team obviously we do rounds and the invitation is really listen to each person as they describe their perspective on the issue and we go around and allow yourself to be interested. You do not have to agree.

(29:21) You don't. When you go around, you will be amazed. I am always at what shifts in both the holders of absolute perspectives and those who have none and you know something we begin to cocreate something different. So we just keep going around until we come to a place of possible consensus or if the leader in this particular team says well I'm glad to have heard but as you know I'm the one who makes the ultimate decision which is fine that happens also okay but just the willing willingness whatever it takes to create willingness anything can

(29:58) happen once there's that that's present >> as you were talking there I was just thinking there's kind of a broader point about society isn't there that we're we don't have conversations and we don't make time to listen to each other. If you think about social media, it's very much people kind transmitting or sharing their view and not actively listening or paying attention to other people.

(30:17) So, they never move beyond I've shared my own view and then they don't shift. So, creating those spaces for people to do that and listen feels really important. It's so I mean just thinking about us having this conversation now you know in the midst of the world the way it is it's such a reflection of where we are not interested in each other's perspectives and what it takes when I heartily disagree with you to just stay interested so that there's I'm sure you you know Margaret Weekly and and she has this exquisite quote about creating

(30:53) islands of sanity I just think it's like such an amazing image [laughter] and I think that the thinking environment creates these islands of sanity where we can begin to engage across defense. >> I guess that kind of links obviously that Nancy could see that there was work that could be done in South Africa as well.

(31:16) So how did that go like what was the work that was done and and how did time to think how was it sort of applied in this kind of environment? We were very lucky. We we I mean pathways just opened up. So we got huge contracts within banks to work with young leaders and that's how it began. And then as you mentioned Louise, I need to acknowledge Louise Venrain because when she learned time to think originally from Nancy and then she came back to South Africa and she started what you must have I imagined um interviewed her on on what she created in the educational field and

(31:50) she knew that every principal and business leader who were partnered had to learn time to think together. So through her time to think started going into schools, underresourced schools and into businesses. She so there were these extraordinary people like her and others who were catalysts to take it into all manner of places because you know it's not a a way of being that requires anything other than interest in allowing people to be themselves and to freely think. It doesn't require education.

(32:27) And it doesn't it it's a human way of being together. So people remember that oh yeah I'm supposed to really be this way. You know I've got it in my bones. I know how to be. And so it's sort of how do we remind people they already know this. >> I was going to say coming back to the components.

(32:44) Did you want to switch on [laughter] the so good? >> There's another one. I think we're at information now. information is about we can't think if we cannot have the relevant these days that word facts so many interpretations but we do need to have actual data and facts so to enable us to think access to information and that's quite a big issue absorb and then the ability to absorb the realities that are in front of us so we can work with them not denying the reality's ability to do it that I I I just want to make a little aside even though it's not official. We are looking

(33:27) at redefining this component. Um u and the reason I want to say that is because the beauty in the way that Nancy works is that she is constantly refining, reviewing as she learns more about how people think and what it takes them to en what it takes to enable them to think. She sees what might be, you know, a more accurate way of describing what we've got.

(33:58) And so she's unafraid, as she puts it, of being wrong. and correcting. I mean I I I am aed by by that capacity in her to celebrate being wrong so that something even better can emerge. So that component is is under reconstruction. I'll say that and then I'm I'm just going to say a word about place and then we'll come to the key piece.

(34:23) So the component of place has a number of levels of definition. One is the physical place where we work. What does it say to us in the workplace, you know, in the organization? What does it say back to the people who come there every day? Does it say you matter? We thought of you. We've created a beautiful coffee place for you to meet. We've generated privacy.

(34:48) We you know what does it say? So that's my place where I I work at home if I'm online. how I care for this space. But then there's this body in which thinking takes place because a body is the the place in which thinking happens. So is it nourished? Is it warm enough? Is it well? Is it well? So I think about people who go to work who are under extraordinary stress and who go there even if they are not well.

(35:19) Well, their thinking is diminished. That's the reality. And then the other place is as a coach. What is the place that my presence is creating for you to be at ease in? And then finally, although it's not finally, is the component called the incisive question, which is a little bit more complex.

(35:44) And um it's how do we free the human mind of limiting assumptions that are lived as true? And limiting assumptions are the ones we all have or we all carry that says, "Oh, I'm [snorts] not as good as him and I don't have what it takes to do that." And we don't speak them, but they're there. And an incisive question is a question created to liberate one.

(36:09) It says, well, I mean, I'll just give you an example of a fun one, which is, if you knew that you had 20% more confidence, what would you do differently? And your mind plays in that place of an incisive question. And when the mind plays, it comes through with something quite extraordinary sometime. And that's where it liberates.

(36:31) So those are the 10 components. >> It just it just shows the power of questions, doesn't it? and how carefully crafted they can do cuz like someone in the darkest of moments asking a question where it's taking them to a hypothetical future can just all of a sudden just release the shackles and and get them to imagine themselves out of there.

(36:49) So there's so much that can be done isn't there and there's so much power that the coach or the facilitator can have that >> yeah I mean those questions I have my own you know that helped me in times when I'm getting you know I get anxious and um or nervous about going into a particular project and I've had I have my thinking sessions with my partner and I get to a an incisive question and very often I keep that question because in the moment when the old assumptions come and says oh Maurice you're not that good

(37:18) really I I and I have a question actually I'll share it with you that says Maurice if you knew that your kind of intelligence is exactly what is needed now how would you move forward and it just goes yeah my contribution you know it just goes you just breathe out and in that outreath new thoughts arise so it's a it's a profound piece of work that and you can use it for groups by the way you know If if we knew as a team that XCO is really interested in our perspective on this decision, what would we tell them?

(37:58) You know, because as you said, Garin, it's hypothetical. So, it's not stuck. It has room to shift and flow. >> Can I ask one question? This forgive me this because I've basically from the notes from the first conversation and I saw this in the book when I was rereading it. Um, is the role of catalyst.

(38:17) um catalyst in biochemistry is an amazing thing. It's a substance that increases the rate of change without being consumed or it also lowers the energy required for change, allows the change to proceed more quickly and this is what it's kind of related to attention I think in terms of that being that catalyst. But it felt like when you said it was such a powerful thing that you said I was like oh I got to get it in but it's so important.

(38:36) Well, I do think that exquisite attention catalyzes the moment. Human attention is is in my view a creative force. That's why it's a practice. It's not just listening. It's an energetic. It's my own presence. It's my interest. It's my eyes. It's my face. All of that is offered to the person who is thinking or I'm partnered.

(39:03) that does catalyze new thought, new possibility. I mean, I see it, you know, in in my clients. It might also generate more feeling. It it can do any of the human things. I I am enthralled by how powerful human attention is and how little we know about it because it's this sort of invisible thing and yet we know when we receive it how it impacts us and shifts you know the heart and the whole way of being how it enables me to be more myself because in the way that you are looking at me you are giving me something you know that's ineffable and

(39:44) yet has impact and I was Sinki, you talk there about interruption and and NY's latest book was called The Promise That Changes Everything. I won't interrupt you. And she talks about how kind of that promise not to interrupt is becomes more and more important. As she's done the work, she realizes how important it is.

(40:00) And I think what I really enjoyed from that book is the different different ways of interrupting that we might not consider because we'll think about well, we could cut across somebody their mid-sentence and we we interrupt their sentence with our our words. >> Well, I love it in the I mean she talks about the economic system and the political system all of that I won't go into that but in between us um recognizing as has been said now everywhere the power of the phone in my hand or on the table the the attractive magnetic force of how it takes my

(40:34) attention even if I'm looking at you away so the discipline and I have to learn this still I mean I I find myself succumbing to all manner of [laughter] things and me. Yes, me. So it's a constant discipline of saying I am with you everything else is away because even um you know when I'm coaching I don't take notes but sometimes I'll write a word or something and I'll know my eyes just left you and people become so used to the comfort and the assurance of having someone's full attention that even when your eyes go down they notice

(41:15) it becomes loud. It's not an interruption, but it is. So, it's increasingly subtle. And also, please let's not be so religious about this that it's like we'll never interrupt ever again. Obviously not. You know, there's flows, there's natural. When it becomes a practice, it does change the whole choreography of the way in which we have a conversation.

(41:41) We know how to take equal turns that we begin to develop a flow in the group. It's it's wonderful. >> Shifting gears slightly, what do you enjoy most about the work that you do? >> Uh I love this work. I do love it. I think it's not I do enjoy it. I think it's because it's so meaningful to me. I think last time we spoke I mentioned about, you know, having a sense of purpose from a very young age that I had to contribute.

(42:10) I I had to enable something to happen because I am present. And I fell in love with this work because it it it gave me a language uh that was accessible to any and it and it gives me an income. I mean how cool is that? So what do I love most? Let's take it in corporate. You know I love mo when you know when you come into a a day a session with a group some people know a bit about the work some people don't.

(42:38) They're looking at you they're checking you out. They say who is this old white woman? you know, and are we why are we sitting in a circle and you know that beginning, you know, that beginning checking out kind of I love that. I love entering into the space together, preparing the space for people, being checked out and connecting with people and and watching them ease.

(43:07) just watching ease as they just relax and breathe out and become more themselves and be more robust in their interactions. So, so I love that. I love what happens when people do their first thinking pair and some people absolutely adore it. One Italian man two weeks ago when I was in Germany said he said there is so much joy knowing I will not be interrupted.

(43:38) That's why and then somebody else said 3 minutes was so long. I thought it would never end [laughter] you know. So there's that whole diversity of of different of of different experiences. I love that and I love bringing people slowly slowly to places that are meaningful for themselves and I love their insight when they begin to resolve issues or come to areas of agreement and I love to see them when they appreciate each other.

(44:13) Yeah. I there's so much I'm sure there's so much more [laughter] but >> but it's such unique work, isn't it? And uh I guess a question that we had is what has to be true for a leader or an organization for this to really land to or to be ready for it as well or do you just work with what is? >> Well, you know, over the years I love working with what is cuz what is is you know there's nothing like it's what you've got, right? It's what you've got.

(44:42) There's always an entry point. But it's wonderful when you have someone who is a champion of the work and invites you in. That is wonderful. Last year in a bank in another country, a CEO invited me. He'd been a real skeptic. I'd worked with him a couple years before. Serious skeptic. Uh but an honest skeptic, you know, asking good question.

(45:12) I mean, not not willing to just believe anything. So, a really good yummy kind of engaging skeptic. And last year, he flew me to his place to say, "My team isn't thinking well. We've got to think well. Please come and help." So, that that opportunity is superb. It's superb. Next week, I am going to be with another executive team uh brought along with one of the directors. I don't know the CEO.

(45:40) I think the director loves the work who brought who's bringing me in. I know very little. They want to align as a team and begin to see how they will work together um and in a in alignment obviously with their organizational values. And I said, well, this will work. We will learn how to be together in a thinking environment and we will use whatever topics are up for the team to use as the foder for our engagement and understanding.

(46:11) So I will just about work anywhere [laughter] there's an invitation. I just find and I think I told you last time I it's back to what gives me joy is in the state of the world the way it is any moment any moment where two people can be giving each other genuine attention is a moment of peace >> obviously Nancy when you put a book into the world the world starts to consume it in its own unique ways don't they so what are the common ways that people either misunderstand the work or maybe dilute it a little because it's really gone into the coaching and facilitation

(46:47) vocabulary, hasn't it? >> Yeah. Yeah, it has. Um, I think she's so courageous to put it out because she wants people to take anything from it that will make a little difference. And so there is everything is out there. I mean, you can get the incisive question on Google in certain ways and stuff. I think people don't understand fully.

(47:13) They think that not interrupting is giving attention and it's not the same. Giving attention is an active offering of one's focus. It's not just not interrupting. So I think they shrink it um to what you know in the workshops people just say oh it's isn't it amazing what you what what can happen with just listening and I just want to there's no just about it.

(47:42) So it gets diluted if you like to that. >> Are there any other components that you feel would be really useful for the audience to know? >> Beautiful component of difference. Difference used to be in the components. It used to be known as diversity. You will see that in the older books, but now it's called difference. And it's a very very hands-on practical definition which is also just a couple years old.

(48:04) And I particularly love it. And it's committing to freedom from untrue assumptions driving prejudice. So it's a big mouthful. And it to for me, I'll tell you what it means to me. It means for me to increase my awareness of all the limiting assumptions that I hold about groups or difference that may drive structural prejudice.

(48:32) And I know some of them because I'm aware of them. a whole load of others I do not know. And I am I welcome people shining a light on where my shadow is that I do not see the kind of structural prejudice that I contribute to by just here I am a white privileged old woman. Um and so I love this committing to freedom.

(48:57) I can you know we can't do it generically. We each have to do it for ourselves. It's a beautiful definition. But thanks for giving me that opportunity. >> That is really important though because we're never observers of the work are we know even though we are says we are participants in the work in an organization aren't we? Even if we're external.

(49:16) >> Yeah. So, >> so um I guess just one question I wanted to ask is I was listening to um this preparation there's two coaches talking about it and one of the things that they mentioned was uh when you're doing like a session a coaching session with someone when you start the session you don't go back over the action plan that you agreed in the last session you basically pick up where you are and kind of ask what are you thinking or what are you at the moment because the person's expected to be thinking for themselves

(49:42) you don't necessarily go drag over the past you you let the person bring what they bring is is Is that right? What what is the reasoning behind that? >> Yeah, that is absolutely right. Every session is a fresh session. You know, if I see you and I see you again in 3 weeks, you're in a completely different place in yourself. Life has happened.

(50:01) You have engaged with life in different ways. So, every moment is a new fresh moment. I am not a coach that is there to be responsible for your accountability. I mean you might ask me as a client saying would you please keep me accountable and I will say to you how would you like me to keep you accountable tell me and then I might if you're asking me then I will have you design the way you will design because you're the owner of the session and not me. Yeah.

(50:31) So if you would like me to remind you, I could say, well, what question would you like me to ask you to begin with today? And you might say, okay, so you're the director, but generally, yeah, we will check in and then I will ask this exquisite question. What would you like to think about and what are your thoughts? And invariably you will take yourself where you need to be, what you need to reflect on, what might have come up that you need to face and navigate.

(51:03) So I trust that I trust implicitly. I love that. Yeah. Cuz I think these coaches are sort of saying I was kind of agree with, but you are with someone, you're working with them. That issue of the moment is so big for them. You between you, you you sort of help them in their own mind come up with their own plan. And then we're afterwards three weeks later they said they kind of moved on from that anyway.

(51:22) What was a huge thing is no longer a huge thing. Their thinking has evolved and that's quite a big evolution of coaching thinking isn't it? >> The power of the coach's presence. So the development of the coach's presence as a key transformative way of enabling the other to also enhance their own their own unique presence.

(51:43) And so there's a and there's a whole range of coaching. Now I'm cautious to say that it's in the sort of transpersonal space. I'm very cautious of using that term, but there is far more depth and awareness of what happens when two human beings come together one in in a in a contractual relationship that's very clear about who is in the driver's seat and who is in the partner seat.

(52:11) So it's a big question but when you look back at your career and the work that you've done what are some of the biggest lessons that you take forward with you >> you know I have to say look I'm old I'm 76 years old so it's a very long and the biggest lesson is no not that different to what I've been speaking about a lot the biggest lesson is an alive lesson because I haven't ceased from learning and understanding it and that is how to be ever more superb at giving attention. It never goes away.

(52:44) That that is an so that's an alive lesson when I look back. Another is to not underestimate the seeds that we have seown because sometimes you know like 10 12 years later you see how somebody has taken whatever they've learned from the thinking environment married it to their passion and taken it somewhere unimaginable in their lives.

(53:12) So I'm learning to trust that. That's what we want to not be the thinking. It's not the thinking environment. It's what you do with the thinking environment in your life with what you love to do. Success isn't, oh, they've learned this, they success is, oh, they've become freed up to use it in their in their work.

(53:34) How cool is that? We love a book. So, obviously, we would highly recommend that people kind of read NY's books, Time to Think and, you know, the the promise changes everything. Yeah, they're both both lovely. Are there any other books that you you'd recommend? Our listeners love a book recommendation.

(53:52) So, if there's other books that you you have on your list. >> Yeah. about it in terms of the thinking environment really there's a a book by Sophie Stevenson who is also a part of the faculty of the thinking environment and she's written this book in collaboration with somebody whose name I have forgotten but it's called raising thinkers and it's about using the thinking environment as as parents and as teachers with youngsters and it's a little book and it's it's really important and it's absolutely exquisite I also Wanted to mention my friend

(54:26) Monica Schulz from Stockholm in Sweden whose TEDex talk was selected by chosen editorial choice and it's called how to listen so people can think and it's a delightful TEDex talk. She's just ineitable in her way and it's very practical and it's fun and it's full of stories. >> And then the last question from us.

(54:51) So if someone's looking at this and they're going, do you know what? I'd love to incorporate this into my practice. What advice would you give someone who's just starting out now from the very beginning? >> Tell them to contact me. [laughter] >> Bold and blunt. So there are programs, there are programs, short, very short programs for small groups.

(55:11) So they're highly interactive. And one is for using the 10 components in the facilitation of groups for instance. And that's called the time to think foundation course. Then there are programs to support coaches or people who really want to learn how to use the incisive question and how to be a genuine thinking partner.

(55:33) That's called the time to think partnership course for very few four to six people only. So ma it's all based on interaction and practice. It's not a not a lecture setting. So these are very practical programs. do read Nancy's book. Um I everything that we do till 2020 is in that book because it was published in 2020. So there's quite a lot of more stuff. Yeah.

(55:58) Look look on the website Time to Think website has wonderful articles and links that could help anyone to just begin to develop their interest and see how the thinking environment is applied in a diversity of contexts. We'll make sure all of the links that Reese has shared with us are in the show notes.

(56:19) So please, whether you listen to this on audio or watch on video, then please do um click on those links and explore them as well. They're brilliant resources. So we want to say a huge thank you. You've taken two very tired OD consultants have been on the road all week locked away in a strategy room.

(56:34) And I can't speak for Danny, but it's been a really joyful conversation. It's been really inspiring and it's really kind of reconnected me back with my coaching practice. I don't know if like if it has for you, Danny, but I guess what are you taking away from today's conversation? >> I've thoroughly enjoyed it. It's been it's it's been a lovely conversation just to listen to you you speak and bring things to life for us.

(56:52) There's so many things I don't really know where to start. But I think I was really struck by that incisive question you talked about the kind of what would you do if you knew your exact type of thing was intelligence was exactly what was needed in the moment. I thought I heard that I thought oh actually I I need that myself times that have you Thank you. like it.

(57:09) >> Oh, thank you both. I must say that this has been so much fun and I love the differences between the two of you and your warmth and your sense of welcome and the ease of the flow that you've developed obviously over time as to how you work together is is a wonder. So, thank you so much for this opportunity.

(57:31) I've loved it. >> Yeah. Well, I but I I I genuely think our audience will get so much value from this. It's it's such a brilliant body of work that Nancy has given to the world. What you've given to it as well is to bring it to life for people and how applicable it is regardless of the context and how you apply it.

(57:47) Um and just just the energy that you bring to it as well. Um so if you are watching this interview or listening to it um what we love is just the amount of shares that we get every single week. I think Danny as of this episode we recording on 134 countries. Um but we get so many shares. So if you know someone, if you know a leader, if you know a team that are stuck that are mutually exasperated, if you uh know someone who may just need to have some space just to work things through, then please do share it with them or someone

(58:15) you feel would really benefit adding time to think to their practice as well. Please do share it with them and also share them with Maurice's details as well. And also we'll share Maurice Maurica's LinkedIn details as well. So you're very welcome to connect on her on there as well. And if you have enjoyed it, please hit the like button and also subscribe as well because the more likes and subscribes we get, the more we get amazing guests.

(58:36) Mar like Maurice joining us all the way from Cape Town today. But most of all, we want to say a huge thank you. It's been such a lovely conversation to a very difficult week for us, but we're so happy to have finished it with you as well. Um, keep doing what you're doing and please can you share how you look so fabulous and are so fabulous at 76? I want to know.

(58:53) [laughter] >> Wonderful. Thank you. >> Thank you. Oh, have a have a restful and nourishing weekend both of you. I hope the sun is shining where you are. >> It is actually. Yes. >> Yeah. Blue skies. [music] [music] Heat. [music] [music] [music]