Ep 18 - An Interview With Sarah Francis - Mountain Ultra Specialist

Kev returns in interview mode with a great guest in Sarah Francis. With 22 years of mountain marathons behind her, Sarah is the most experienced mountain ultra runner Kev has ever met. In this highly insightful interview, Sarah imparts her wealth of mountain race knowledge and gives us an insight into all the longest UK  events.

https://theomm.com/events/

https://www.northerntraverse.com/

https://www.capewrathultra.com/

Aid Station website where you can find the episodes or leave comment https://www.aidstation.co.uk/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:10

There it is in the distance. I can see it next aid station.

SPEAKER_04 0:32

Hey Kev, where's Aid Station been? I hear you ask. Well, to be honest, I've been injured. And as you all know, when you get injured, you lose a bit of your running mojo. So I haven't felt like doing much to do with the Aid Station podcast. I haven't been involved in any ultra running. And I got injured on the club's training camp that I actually operate. We went to Dartmoor in January, and somewhere around January 21st or something, I was coming off Ugbra Beacon and on a steep downhill, overstretched it, went over a heather clump and landed basically with a completely straight leg, which caused some sort of damage, which initially I thought might be uh cruciate ligament, then I thought it might be bruised or um torn meniscus. I think it might be bone bruising now. Uh the upshot of it all is that I uh eventually, as is my want, I didn't do much about it early on. Um stupidly enough, the I mean I couldn't bend down to do my shoelaces up. Um I had to get others to do that for me. Uh that was on the Friday. On the Saturday, I just coached all day, and on the Sunday I went out on a 16-mile, which was a four-mile walk, to get things moving, and then ran on it. But it really wasn't it was a stupid thing to do, it wasn't really runnable, it was uh an injury that should have been rested. Um but I don't learn my lessons and I'd paid my money and gone all the way to Dartmoor, not been there before to run properly, other than wrecking the camps, and so I went out and ran on it and ran too long. Eventually I went to a physio who said they thought it might be bruised or torn meniscus. Uh, then I got so fed up with it after about 12 weeks of inactivity. I went and sought a specialist privately. I've had an X-ray, an MRI, and I'm going to see the consultant on the 19th of April to find out exactly what's going on. I mean it's freed up quite a bit now. I've been doing swimming, cycling, and some cross-training work in the gym, uh, but it's still not functioning fully as you'd safely want it to downhill in the mountains, and I haven't even tested it out on any downhills, it's not too bad going uphill. I've um become very acquainted with a thing called the Stairmaster in the gym, and I'm trying to replicate going up Triffon on that, which takes me an hour when I'm fit. So I'm trying to get up to an hour on the Stairmaster to get it going. Uh, so we shall see where that goes. But anyway, all this waffling about me and my injury. Got an interview with Sarah Francis coming up, who Lizzie put me on to. Uh, Lizzie met Sarah at uh an Ultra event. I I don't remember now which one it was. Uh but Sarah's a second claim member of our running club that both Lizzie and I are members of Heart Roadrunners. Um, and I'd never come across Sarah before, which was quite surprising, uh, as she's been in Ultra Running for 22 years, but we haven't obviously been in the same races before, so this was an opportunity to really catch up with somebody with loads and loads of mountain running and orienteering experience. Okay, I'm on a a walk, a fairly speedy walk, uh with Sarah Francis from Heart Roadrunners, our running club. Um and uh strangely enough for me anyway is that Sarah and I's paths have not crossed really uh too much before, um especially with ultra running. So um obviously Sarah's doing races that I don't do uh and she's got a lot of experience. So I've just seen her car which is full of uh OMM stickers going back to 2009. 2000? And she says, yeah, further back than that she goes to um 2000. So I'd love to find out how did you get into Ultrarunning Sarah?

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Well, funnily enough, it all started on a geology field trip back in 1997 up in Scotland, and uh I I met a chap up there who was into fell running and orienteering and the mountain marathons, and at the time I was doing trampolining and martial arts, and I just thought this sounds really interesting, it would be really cool to get fit enough to be able to take part in that sort of an event. So I came back, Googled orienteering, um, and I started orienteering in 98, and I got fit enough to run my first mountain marathon in 2000. Um, the mountain marathons are two-day adventure races. So you start, you have a set of um grid references, you mark up your map, you spend the day running in the mountains, finding the checkpoints, carrying all your kit, so your clothes, your food, your tent, your sleeping bag, first aid kit, anything else that you think you might need. And when I was first running them, my kit weighed a fair bit, and over the years I've reduced it down. Um and as far as the ultra-running longer races, sort of you know, the you're over 40 miles type events, um, I canoe as well. And in 2016, I did my third Devices to Westminster canoe race. But the girl I did with it, we had a bit of an adventure because we had Storm Katie come in and we ported our kayak, sorry, we carried it for 25 miles, having already kayaked 99 miles. And it's like, well, we did that. If you'd said at the start of that event we were gonna, that's what we were gonna do, we would have said, nah, that's just bonkers. But we did it, and you start to think, well, okay, I can do that. What is my limit? Yeah, what can I do? What's gonna be the point at which actually I really can't go any further? And that excited me actually to find out what my limit was going to be. And I just I love a challenge, I love being out adventuring. Um, so my ultra races are self-navigated ones, so you'll have your map and you've got to navigate the route. Um I don't do the event, I have done a couple, but I generally don't do events which are marked in any shape or form.

SPEAKER_04 8:25

So you you make full use of your orienteering background.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

Yeah, very much so.

SPEAKER_04 8:30

Yeah. And did you go initially, did you go on courses to learn how to orienteer or read a map?

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Uh well I could read a map from the guides, um, but an orienteering map's a bit different. The uh the mapping uh the mapping's a bit more specific, yeah, um, and the scale's different.

SPEAKER_07 8:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

But no, actually, I read a book by Carol McNeil, who's an ex-elite orienteer, um, found an event to go to and just rocked up at the event, did a beginner's course, um, spent ages finding the first control because I was used to running off a 1 to 25,000 or 1 to 50,000 ordinance survey map, and I was all in on a 1 to 10, so I shot off. But once I got a hand of the map scale, yeah, I ran around the uh rest of the course and then I was hooked and gradually improved my skills. Um, I had some coaching from a friend in the orienteering club that I joined, um, which was really helpful. We'd go out and um navigate round and they say, Okay, why did you go that way? Okay, you didn't find that control, what did you do wrong? What should you have done better? Um, so gradually improved my orienteering from there.

SPEAKER_04 9:47

And with the OMM series, is that do you do that in partnership or is that solo as well?

SPEAKER_01 9:53

The yeah, the OMM, which is the old Kim, um that's a paired event. Um I've also done the Lamb, which doesn't exist anymore, which is the Lower Alpoint Mountain Mountain, that's pears as well. Saunders, which was pears, they then introduced a solo class. So I've run several of those solo. So you're still running with all your kit. Of course, if you're running solo, you can't share any kits, you've got to carry everything yourself. Um including yes, is it? Yeah, absolutely, and also you've got no body to help take the pressure off on navigation. So the first one I did on my own, carrying all the kit and having to do all the nav, making all the route decisions. I was actually more tired than if I'd run with a partner. It's really interesting how you bounce off your partner for different things, shared shared decisions about routes, and yeah, and if you've made a mistake, you know there's two of you to sort the problem out.

SPEAKER_04 10:54

Right. So that's like 22 years then approximately.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

22 years of mountain marathons, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:00

Yeah, and it's mainly mountain stuff, is it? That you do?

SPEAKER_01 11:03

It is. I have done, I did do an event that was only 33 miles that was along the Thames.

SPEAKER_04 11:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

But I didn't find that very interesting.

SPEAKER_04 11:11

No. Um so you don't do the centurion type stuff, you I haven't, no, and they're all marked as far as I'm aware. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

I mean it would be quite nice just to go and get off a nice sort of easy hundred miler from the point of view of all you've got to do is run.

SPEAKER_05 11:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Um, but then again, I don't know that I'd enjoy enjoy that in a way.

SPEAKER_04 11:31

Yeah, well, you lose an element then of the skill of where you would have some advantage, don't you, in in the navigation element.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Well, also to be honest, I think I might get bored if I'm just being assigned everywhere.

SPEAKER_04 11:44

So, do you find the map reading really helps with getting you through the distance, you know, in terms of the mind stuff, applying your main to mind to something.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Being able to navigate, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:56

Well, and thinking as well on the move.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 11:59

And reading the map helps you get through.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

I think it does. Um, but also, I mean, it is if you're used to navigating, you don't find that as an extra tiresome thing so much. Um, yeah. If you're not used to navigating, then I think that extra element can make it more tiring. Um but having said that, if you're running a race where you're running all day and all night and then perhaps into the next night, you start to get sleep deprivation issues. It doesn't matter how good you are at navigation. Yeah, you've got you've you've got to focus on balancing your speed and your pace and your decision making with the fact that you haven't had any sleep.

SPEAKER_04 12:36

That's right. And have you been in some situations where you know sleep deprivation has got to you or you think is that you're not?

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Yeah, I've had hallucinations.

SPEAKER_04 12:45

Oh really? Wow.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Yeah. I mean one event I was doing, I saw nothing but beach huts, which was really unhelpful because I was trying to find somewhere to safely cross the river that was in spate. Um and all I could see was beach huts. And it's like I said to myself, look, I know these damn beach huts aren't here. Because A, I'm halfway up a mountain, yeah, so it's just not conceivable that they're going to be there. It's not like I'm running a coastal event and I've got more when there really are beach huts. Um they really couldn't be. And I've seen trees that turn into big giant monsters and make you jump. Um, and and things running at you that are not there at all, so you've got to have a bit of confidence running at night.

SPEAKER_06 13:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Um, especially if you're on your own. And I don't mind running on my own.

SPEAKER_06 13:27

No.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Um the event I did the other week, Lakes Traverse, which was a hundred kilometres from Shapter St B's. I did part of that on my own, and then you know, you'd catch somebody up, you chat with them for a bit, you'd run on, or someone will catch you up.

SPEAKER_04 13:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

They chat to you for a bit and run on.

SPEAKER_04 13:46

So how I knew I knew you'd done that because I was doing a bit of dot watching. Um excellent. And uh, which is a great pastime when you're injured. Yeah. Well, at any time, well, especially if you know people money, yeah. Totally. Um, but uh how how's the recovery been from that? Because what was that? Well, I've been two weekends ago, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Yeah, it was. I was quite pleased because last Wednesday, which would have been just a couple of days after I finished it, yeah, I went and ran the brown orienteering course on Mitchit, or not Mitchit, um, was it Mitchit? No, it was Windmill Hill, which is really hilly. Um, and I was quite pleased because I was thinking, oh, I'm gonna do the long course, really hilly, I'm not gonna be recovered, but I feel quite reasonable. And then yesterday I had I ran a Barton Stacey, which is really flat and quite easy navigationally, so there's no excuse for dawdling. Right, you've just got to go, go, go. Um, and I was quite pleased about that. And I'm not the fastest runner, and I don't do speed work anymore, so but I was quite pleased that uh my legs were feeling reasonable. Not 100% recovered, I have to say my adductors are still a bit tired.

SPEAKER_08 14:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Um, but we had quite a bit of ice on the Lakes Traverse. It was very cold overnight.

SPEAKER_04 15:03

Oh, okay. Um, like now you you don't mind the head torch. In fact, do you enjoy the head torch? Is that part of it? I love running at night.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Yeah, so that's I absolutely loved it. Yeah, in fact, I've got some roots at home when I'm training that I don't take the head torch on at all over fleet ponds. The roots I'll run routes that I know that aren't got haven't got you know a load of tree roots or something like that, just with no torch.

SPEAKER_05 15:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

But um, but going back to the kayaking, night kayaking, I don't use a torch for that either.

SPEAKER_04 15:33

Really?

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Yeah, wow. So you use your your um your night sight, which does develop with practice, it's like anything.

SPEAKER_08 15:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

You know, everyone puts their head torch on really early or puts lights on all the time, and you you then get really bad at seeing at night.

SPEAKER_04 15:50

Yeah. Well, that's really interesting. I hadn't even considered that as uh an option, uh, especially to go in a river, which is which sounds quite dangerous to me, but I suppose it's no more dangerous than trying to cross a mountain ridge through the gate. Yeah, I'm sorry, through this gate, yeah. Um yeah, so on the uh how long did the traverse take you, the Lakeland Traverse?

SPEAKER_01 16:17

That was 24 hours.

SPEAKER_04 16:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

I mean it could easily have been taking me less. Um I had a 15-minute there was two checkpoints. I mean, no, anyone that was dotching would dot watching would have seen a no a load of checkpoints. Now, most of those weren't on the ground, they were just for timing purposes for the events.

SPEAKER_08 16:34

Ah, right.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

We had two actual physical checkpoints, one at Rothwaite, which was at 30 miles in, whatever that is in kilometres. Um then, good point, yes, it's positive, I know that. Um, and then one at 44 miles, which was at Passadale, right? But they were the only two where you could get any more water or get anything to eat, so hence I carried most of my food. Okay, um, because 30 miles is quite a way to go without obviously you've got to eat.

SPEAKER_04 17:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

And then at Passadale, I rocked up, I knew I needed to sort my rucksack out for going up high for a long time in the cold. Um, I had a bowl of soup, and then I thought I'll just shut my eyes for a minute. Now, bearing in mind this was about half as one in the morning, that was a really dangerous thing to do because all of a sudden it was like, oh, did I actually fall asleep? And I looked at my watch, it's like, damn it! I did, I actually fell asleep for about 45 minutes. Oh wow, but I was well within the cutoff times, so it didn't matter. See, on that race, they've got nice, generous cut-off times. Um, so you don't you don't feel under pressure. I mean, obviously, if you've got lost or you were dawdling everywhere, you'd be timed out, but providing you're moving at a reasonable pace, then um then the cutoffs are fine.

SPEAKER_04 18:01

So that that race is part of a bigger event, really, isn't it, in terms of the the northern traverse.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Yes, it's only run since it's first in fact this year's one because of Covid was only its second running.

SPEAKER_08 18:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

And in fact, I think the northern traverse was only its fourth running. It was quite a new race for James Thurlow and his crew. Right. But of course it's now been taken over by Shane Olyan Aria.

SPEAKER_04 18:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Um both of whom I know.

unknown 18:30

Right.

SPEAKER_04 18:30

Have you done many of Shane's events?

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Shane used to run the Rock Mountain Marathon, so I've run quite a few of those, but I know Shane from Owen Turing.

SPEAKER_08 18:39

Oh, okay. So that's why I originally knew him.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

His rap ground actually is free climbing. Oh, is it? Yeah, he stopped free climbing when it got to the point where I might die, perhaps I should do something else.

SPEAKER_04 18:52

Yeah, I suppose you push it to a point where yeah, you get to your limit with that, I would have thought.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

Well, he said the younger people were coming through. Yeah, he did a really interesting webinar that I listened to because I didn't know his climbing background, I only really knew his orienteering and mountain mountain background. Um, no, so that was it does explain his personality, actually. Um, but yeah, so I have, but I've also done, I mean James Thurlow Open Adventure, um The Lakes in a Day, which is um that's a 50-mile race in October, which I've done four times now. Um but that's a particularly tough race because you start in Cauldbeck in the north of the lakes, you finish in Cartmel, but you run over High Pike, over Flyncathra, down to Threckeld, up Cloughhead, over the Dodds, over Helvellin, Nethermost Pike, Dwelling Wagon Pike, down to Griesdale, Tarn, up to um Fairfield, down the anti-clockwise limb to Ambleside at 30 miles, and then you go, ha! I'm gonna have a break here. Wow! And then you've got to run the next 20 miles, which is over the lower fells, all the way to Cartmel.

SPEAKER_04 20:02

Why do I feel like you should be a Lakeland guide all of a sudden? I guess you've spent a lot of time there in the last 20 odd years of ultra running.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Yeah, I have done, and um and I love going up to Scotland as well, but that's just a bit further away.

SPEAKER_04 20:15

Yeah, I have done some events up there, but um now I mentioned the northern traverse because I know that you're now tempted or happened to.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

I haven't actually entered it yet, but it's going to be happening.

SPEAKER_04 20:26

Yeah, just explain the northern traverse.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Well, that's the first six first hundredk of the Lake Traverse is the first part of the Northern Traverse, but the Northern Traverse itself is 300k starting at St B's and finishing at Robin Hood's Bay.

SPEAKER_04 20:40

Yeah, so it's the famous crossing, isn't it? Really?

SPEAKER_01 20:43

It is a coast to coast, although it doesn't follow exactly the coast to coast route. There are some points due to the nature of getting support points in where it goes off that route. But again, that's not signed. Um and the coast to coast itself, if you walk it, you need a map because it doesn't have it's not like it's a national pathway that has a regular sign, it's like the South Downs Way, say, yeah, it's got the odd random coast to coast this way, but you certainly wouldn't be able to navigate it just hoping you were going to follow signs.

SPEAKER_04 21:15

Yes, all the way across England. And what um what sort of time do you get to do that? How many days or um right?

SPEAKER_01 21:23

It starts at 10.30 on the Saturday morning, so an hour after we started on the Lakes Traverse, and you've got until 1.30 in the morning on the Thursday morning. So Wednesday night stroke Thursday morning, depending on how you personally view 1 30 in the morning.

SPEAKER_04 21:40

Okay, and you feel fairly confident about that thing, given what you did on the lake traverse, do you is that?

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Oh, I I right it's like any of these ultras. Yeah, because they're so long, there's so many variables as to why you may or may not finish, you may or may not hit your target time. Um, but certainly looking at the Cutoff, I would be happy that unless I you know I got really injured myself or was ill going into it, that I'd be happy to do it and get well within the cut-off times.

SPEAKER_04 22:12

Great.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Um because it does factor in allowing you to have a little bit of sleep.

SPEAKER_04 22:16

Um I imagine you would have to get your head down at some point, I guess. Unless you're very I don't know if Kim Collison slept. No, he didn't.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

But the thing is he was so fast that he wouldn't have needed to.

SPEAKER_04 22:29

Yes, that's right. Um But most of the people this podcast saying that will definitely need to sleep along the way.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Yeah, and in fact, even if you're only getting your head down for a little while, um, it can make a difference. You don't even need to go to sleep. What I've discovered is you need to rest your brain. You need because you're constantly looking. If you're not looking at the map, you're looking at where you're going. Yeah. Or you're looking at where your feet are landing. Your brain, from that point of view, of looking isn't getting a rest. And it's important to be able to shut your eyes, and you can't really do that on the move.

SPEAKER_08 23:01

No.

SPEAKER_04 23:23

So Sarah, what how many ultras would you plan to do in well, what I'd like to call a season, but it may be a year? Do you do you set out with an idea?

SPEAKER_01 23:34

I do because some of them I need to do some specific training for, and I also need to allow for specific blocks of time where I'm doing a bit less to taper off for them.

SPEAKER_06 23:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

I mean, obviously with COVID and everything, it was a bit rubbish trying to sort things out. But this year, for example, I've already done Lake Traverse. Um, I've got I'm doing GL3D at the beginning of May, which is three days mountain mountain flight event.

SPEAKER_04 24:02

Yeah, I'm doing that one.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

And then my big race this year is Cape Roth Ultra, which is eight days stage race.

SPEAKER_04 24:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Starting the 22nd of May.

SPEAKER_04 24:13

Yeah, so so for people who don't know what the Cape Roth Ultra is, do you want to tell them what that's all about? Because that's like the last wilderness in Great Britain, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 24:23

It certainly is. Yeah, it's a 400 kilometre stage race, it's run over eight days. Um, you but the days are not split evenly distance-wise, so for the shortest day is 16 miles. Um I'm I'm mixing between kilometres and miles now, which I know is entirely unhelpful. Um, but the longest day we've actually got a 48-mile day.

SPEAKER_08 24:44

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Um and the cutoffs for that, because it's it's Shane that's organised it, and Shane's events tend to have tight cutoffs. It yes, it is. Um, yeah, so the cutoffs are very tight for that. So that's gonna be a matter of I'm gonna have to be on my A game to be able to finish the longer days inside the cutoff time. I know that. I mean, I was originally supposed to be doing the event in 2020, and then obviously it was cancelled. And then it didn't run last year either in May, and I couldn't do it in August because I had another ultra the week before, so there was no way I was gonna be doing the back-to-back. So now here we are, two years old.

SPEAKER_04 25:21

They all got backed up, haven't they? Lots of things.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

They have things, but I'm really looking forward to it. I'm just gonna have to really try and manage right, manage everything, try and keep my feet in good order. Because if your feet are trashed, as in you know, blistered or whatever, yeah, you can't run properly. No, and it doesn't matter how much will you got, you you, you you know, you your gait changes, and if you're on that limit between, well, I can do it if it goes well, but I can't if it doesn't go well, then all of a sudden you're timed out. Yeah, but no, again, that's a self-navigation route. Um, it's a small event, so there's a maximum of 200 competitors, I think.

SPEAKER_08 25:57

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

And yeah, and you start the race off by going over on a boat from Fort William, which is where it starts.

SPEAKER_08 26:04

Oh, lovely.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Yeah, um, yes, you spend eight days out in the wilderness, and you you carry you carry your day kit, which actually will be a reasonable amount because on this race there are no physical checkpoints, right? So you have to carry all your food for your entire day, and then when you get into the overnight camp, you will have packed a drop bag which will have your sleeping bag and bits and pieces like that in, and they they provide the tent. Um, but interestingly, the kit I carried for Lake's Traverse, which was the day's food and the mandatory kit, yeah, that actually weighed eleven and a half pounds, which is more than I would normally carry on a mountain marathon. Um but that's because it was April and you needed to allow for the fact that it might be cold at night, and it was, it was about minus eight, so I was grateful for having the warm kit. And again, May in Scotland, yes, North West Highlands, we could have ice, we could have snow. That's right, it could be really windy, it could be really wet.

SPEAKER_04 27:08

And there's loads of river and stream crossings, aren't there?

SPEAKER_01 27:11

That is a thing, yes. And if we have a lot of rain, I went up and wrecked one tiny bit of it last year because I couldn't cancel my accommodation, so I've gone and stayed up at Fort William. I went and had a look at a couple of the days. I had a neck injury at the time, so I was actually only walking, but one river I spent 20 minutes trying to find a safe place to cross. And I'm used to crossing rivers.

SPEAKER_07 27:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Um, and that's 20 minutes where you're not going anywhere.

SPEAKER_04 27:37

Yeah, and you were on your own.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:39

Yeah, it's quite a uh dangerous thing to do, isn't it? I read somewhere that you shouldn't go in if it's over your knees. No, as a general, and you know, if it's in spate, then you're you're in trouble.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Well you are. I mean I remember 2004 Kim in the Breck and Peek in Summary Dali, yeah, and uh it was day two and it had rained like mad overnight, and we had a river crossing on the way to one of our controls, um, which we just couldn't cross. Um we didn't want to go 2k upstream to the bridge, so we just swam across the river, which is well the thing was I was training for a triathon at the time.

SPEAKER_04 28:22

Alright, so you could you were a decent swimmer then?

SPEAKER_01 28:25

Yeah, but if I hadn't been, because as soon as I started swimming, I started being swept downstream, and um I had to swim like hell to get to the other side. Bearing in mind this is the end of October, the river was freezing, and it's like get out the other side, and we had this massive climb, and it was like I've never wanted a such a massive climb ever in my life because it warmed me up really good. Normally I'd be like, Oh my god, yeah, we've got 500 metres of straight up, but no, I was grateful for it that time. But no, it does make you really respect um the rivers, and actually, it doesn't need to be a massive wide river, it can be quite narrow, but if it's going fast enough and to take you off your feet, yeah, um, then you can be in serious trouble.

SPEAKER_04 29:08

Yeah. Yeah, I did um years ago, did uh the uh the three peaks as in Ben Nevis, um Scarfeld Pike and Snowden. Yes. And on Scarfell Pike there's a stream crossing at the start at the bottom, and it was this was in you know June in the long daylight time. Um and I I guess I was there about two or three in the morning, um, got up on my own and just couldn't find anywhere to cross, and then about half an hour later, because it's the sort of thing that people do at that time of year, a group came up with head torches and we linked arms and managed to get over, but that would have been the end of it if I hadn't um had them come along. So it's quite a dangerous thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

No, well we were a pair, but even so we we had to swim. And in 2010, I was running with a chap called Paul and again Kim, what's beyond by then? Um that was on Dartmoor, and again, we'd had all this water, this rain overnight. A river we'd crossed on the way on day one was absolutely mental when we had to cross it in a different place on day two, and we couldn't cross it. Um, we had to wait for another pair, and we then crossed as a four.

SPEAKER_04 30:22

Oh, right, because that was the only safe way to cross it. So I'm interested, how the heck do you recie something like the Cape Roth Ultra? Because it's so remote, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 30:32

Well, I mean I haven't.

SPEAKER_04 30:33

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

But you went up and had a little. I went up there and I had a I did a small part of day three and I did a um day one and a bit of day seven. Um I haven't done any of day five.

SPEAKER_04 30:45

I think that's good. Do you like I've made comments on this podcast before about um ultra runners ruin their races because they're going wrecky before and then don't get any like new discovery in the actual race. Um do you like to approach races without knowing the route, you know, because your navigation skills or yeah, it is nice to because you can like if you're a good map reader, you can get a good idea of what's going to be coming up anyway.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Um yeah, so it is nice to go and do a course that you don't know exactly where what the ground's going to be like, where it's going, and that sort of thing. Um so yeah, I mean that's part of the challenge of it, is going out and running a route that you haven't run before.

SPEAKER_03 31:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Um I mean, equally, I have like lakes in a day, I've done four times, so I know that route. Yeah. Um so I mean I can pretty much navigate that with a map now.

SPEAKER_04 31:37

I guess the difference is when you go mounted marathon in the the weather conditions are always different, aren't they? They are every time you do it, just about.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Well, this is it, and I mean lakes in a day race, 2018, which was the mad year. I'd done it in 2017 in bad weather and thought, oh, can't have worse weather than that. I'll run it in 2018 and get the good weather they've had in the three years previous. Oh no, we get Storm Bryan or Storm Callum or whatever it was. I literally got blown off my feet on the summit of Helin, rolled towards the edge. I had no control, I had to put my body into a shape where the wind stopped rolling me, crawl off out the way. Fortunately, I was already running well away from the edge because obviously I know you don't run near the edge of a precipice when there's a strong wind. Um, and then when we got to Ambleside, oh no, Chrysdel Tarn, the outlet flow there was in spate. I had to cross that facing the flow, leaning into it, going sideways, or I'd have been taken off. And Ambleside was completely flooded.

SPEAKER_07 32:43

Um, yeah, I mean, that was just a great event.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Going along wind of me, at one point I was up to my chest in water. Um, but you got to the end of that, and it's like, yeah, and that was a real good race. That was a brilliant challenge. I beat everything that was thrown at me. I feel really brilliant.

SPEAKER_04 33:01

Yeah, that's what you want, isn't it? It's the a different runners high, I think, that you get with ultra running or mountain ultrarunning.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Yeah, you've got you've got to manage yourself as well, you've got to know when to take layers off, when to put them on, when to eat, when to drink, yeah, when to have a small break, you know, yeah, and all those all those things because there's there's nobody else necessarily there to tell you, and anyway, what's right for somebody else isn't necessarily right for you.

SPEAKER_04 33:27

Especially with nutrition. Yes, it's all different, isn't it? It's very personal.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

It is, and again, that depends upon the length of the ultra and what sort of pace you're running at. Because if you're running a shorter ultra more quickly, your nutrition needs are different. Well, I find I can I can't eat the same things if I'm running quicker than if I'm running more slowly.

SPEAKER_04 33:49

So, do you train specifically for certain races or do you use other races as build-ups?

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Oh yeah, I mean I do use that. So Lakes Traverse I've used as a build-up race for the Cape Ross Ultra. Right. It was a good opportunity for me to see where I was for running 100k in one go.

SPEAKER_07 34:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Because I haven't got to do that on the Cape Ross Ultra. My longest day is as I say, the 48 miles. So well, that's 80k. Um but that'll be on tired legs.

SPEAKER_07 34:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

And the orienteering events, I mean, my orienteering I love anyway, yeah, but it is useful because you're in terrain, yeah, so you're not on paths, yeah. So you're practicing picking your feet up all the time and this sort of thing. So that's actually good strength training, much better than say running like like running down the tow path, that's just really easy.

SPEAKER_04 34:39

Yeah. Um, so you wouldn't go out, you know. Some people avocate like long back-to-back weekends, don't they doing you know, 30 miles or 40 miles on a Saturday, Sunday, whatever, um, for getting ready for the really long ones. Is that that's not something you'd rather do it via orienteering or uh an event?

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Uh yeah, I mean if I was training with somebody, but I think sometimes it's it's not so easy necessarily to kick yourself out of the door just to go and run 30 miles on your own. Yeah, if you've arranged to meet somebody or or if there's an event that you can practice different stuff at. I do do back-to-back long runs.

SPEAKER_04 35:20

Oh, you do?

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Um yes, and in fact, this Easter, Sunday and Monday, I'll be doing two long runs. Um normally at Easter I'd be doing the devices to Westminster canoe race. Oh but I'm not doing it that this year because I worked out it really didn't fit with it was going to be two weeks after the Lake's Traverse, two weeks before GL3D, which itself is only three weeks before Cape Roth Ultra.

SPEAKER_08 35:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

And I hadn't done the Lake's Traverse before, so my thought was if I finish that really tired and I'm not recovered for DW and I do DW tired, then everything I'm tired, tired, tired. And if I'm not fully recovered for Cape Roth Ultra, I've got no hope of finishing it. I know I can do the distance, is whether I can do the distance in the time for that one.

SPEAKER_04 36:08

Um you mentioned the Great Lakeland 3 Day again, uh, which I said that I'm doing as well, and I've never done it before. Um, can you tell me a bit more about that? Because I'm going up there with the view that well, I originally entered it as training for the Dragons Bat race, and again it got put back because of COVID and I couldn't do it, hence I'm doing it now. Um, because I'd planned to do the expert course each day, but the more I see about it, the more it seems to be much more social and much more optional in terms of routes, because there are four routes, aren't there, each day?

SPEAKER_01 36:45

There are. Um it's the most relaxed mountain marathon that I've ever done. I've done two of them now. I hadn't done them at all for years, and friends of mine said, Oh, you really enjoy that one, you'll really enjoy that one, you really should do it. Alright, I'll enter it. The beauty of it is you can choose, you can mix and match your courses. So, unlike a normal mountain marathon, if you've done day one on the A course, you've got to do day two on the A-course. Um, but you can choose between the four courses, um, which will be not just a difference in distance, there'll be a difference in elevation and there'll be a difference in difficulty of choosing sensible routes.

SPEAKER_08 37:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

But they won't be like um a traditional om-type mountain marathon where you're looking for you know crags or you know, you're very much off-piece, oriented style, navigating to a pinpoint feature. GL3D is all about long trail runs in the mountains, you'll have checkpoints on sort of summits and river bends and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_04 37:44

Obvious places, yeah, you'll be on a trail. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

Um, not to say you can't go off trail, certainly on the expert, there would be some route choices where you could go round or you know, round off or stay on the track sort of thing.

SPEAKER_06 37:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Um and I think thank you. And I think that's a seven o'clock start. I'm gonna use it as a dry run for Cape Roth Ultra. My plan is to get a seven o'clock start each day.

SPEAKER_04 38:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

And on the expert or I probably I'm gonna see what the courses are like. Okay. My plan at the moment is probably to do Wainwright long or three days. Um I might not, I might see where the expert goes.

SPEAKER_04 38:25

Yeah. I ought to explain that with this event, uh the Great Lakelands 3 Day, is that you don't get a GPX file or a route to follow.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

Oh yeah, I was gonna point that out actually. Yeah, yeah, so I should have mentioned that fact, thinking everyone knew what I was talking about, but of course they don't know. So you get a map which has got all the control points on it for all the courses, and then in the legend it will tell you, so for the Wainwright long, for example, that you've got to go to controls one, two, three, four, seven, nine, whatever, which you then plot on your map, and you choose your own course.

SPEAKER_04 38:56

You can choose your own way of getting there, exactly that.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

Yeah, you've got to do them in order, so it's not like a score course, it is a line course, you've got to do them in order, and if you miss one out, you'll be disqualified.

SPEAKER_08 39:06

Oh right.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Um so you can choose yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:11

So, really, going back to you using it for the Cape Roth Ultra as training, um, you really you want elevation that's similar to Cape Roth, really, don't you? Because it isn't all mountainous, is it, Cape Roth?

SPEAKER_01 39:24

No, all most of the days have got a lot of climb. Oh, but yeah, there's no flat day. Day one hasn't got too much climb. Right.

SPEAKER_04 39:33

Um but it's not dragons back country, is it?

SPEAKER_01 39:36

Day three is how is it? Oh right, okay. Day three has got the most elevation and it has the highest cut-off people dropping out because they're cut off the top time-wise.

SPEAKER_08 39:47

Oh right, okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

Um it's it's not the longest day, the longest day is day six. Yeah, that's the 48 miles. Yeah, that's but day three is let me think about this, because day one's 24 miles, day two is 35 miles, um, and day three is 42 miles, I think.

unknown 40:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

And then day four is twenty foul, and then day five's 30 odd again, or might be 40, and then day six is 48. Right. Can't remember how long day seven is, and then day eight is only sixteen.

SPEAKER_04 40:18

Right. I love this. This is typical ultra nerdiness, isn't it? Knowing how many you've studied it and studied it since you've entered, haven't you?

SPEAKER_01 40:28

Well, it's it's numbers as well. I do remember numbers.

SPEAKER_04 40:32

Yeah, I guess that helps with the nav as well, then.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

Oh yeah, especially if you're working out sort of distances and how far you've got to go.

SPEAKER_04 40:40

So are you planning doing the Great Lakeland 3 day on your own then? Yes. And getting off and getting going. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:47

Yeah, very much so. Um, I've got friends of mine that I'm staying with on the Thursday night. I'm gonna camp on the Friday night, they're staying at their house, but I thought no, if I'm gonna do it as a Cape Ross dry run, I really need to camp on the Friday night to get up, start at seven, rather than sleeping in a bed on the Friday night with you know having that luxury that I won't have.

SPEAKER_06 41:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Um, yeah, and I'm not that great at starting at seven in the morning.

SPEAKER_06 41:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

I'm better at running at three in the morning or two in the morning than running at seven in the morning.

SPEAKER_04 41:17

Yeah, yeah, that's the hard thing, isn't it? It's the the camp admin thing that I'm uh trying to get my head round.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

It's very interesting because having run mountain marathons for 22 years, you my camp admin is very good because it has to because it's it's had to have been, it's just gradually picked that up. But I was talking to somebody last year, um, and they were saying we can always tell people that come into the overnight camps on things like the Dragon's Back and the Cape Bath, yeah, who is a mountain marathon and who isn't. And the way we know it is their camp admin.

SPEAKER_05 41:48

Oh, right.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

Yeah, the mountain marathons will have good camp admin, yeah, and the general sort of ultra runners who haven't done that sort of thing are rubbish because they're used to having it done by the checkpoint staff. Coming into a feed station, would you like a cup of tea?

SPEAKER_04 42:01

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

This sort of thing.

SPEAKER_04 42:03

Yeah, the one tip that came out for me, the biggest thing, was the amount. I mean, I wasn't in camp very long because I was only in the race two days, but the thing I found was the wandering backwards and forwards from the tent to the food hall to the toilets, and somebody said, just get a bag and put everything you need, your toothbrush, toothpaste, all this stuff, all your cutlery, in the bag and carry that around the camp with you so you haven't got to keep going back to your kit bag. Yeah. And you know, it's all this sort of stuff that's just saving you time on your feet and actual time that you need to be laying down to sleep, really.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

That's this is right, and it's like having your kit bag thoroughly sorted out so that you know exactly where stuff is going to be, yeah, so that you're not in a hurry in the morning and throwing everything out, trying to find the whatever it is you've accidentally packed at the bottom, trying to shove everything back in the drop bag to get it back over.

SPEAKER_04 42:56

Another thing I am not is a camper. So this is all news to me because I bought myself a tent and we've got to put them up and take them down, haven't we? Move them. Yes, absolutely. Well, they move them for us, but we still have to put them up and take them down.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

Yeah, you've got to pack them away and get them back in your dry bag, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:14

So I'll be getting that out in the back garden and practicing like mad, putting it up and taking it down.

SPEAKER_01 43:18

I think if you get into the overnight camp on Saturday tired, yeah, the last thing you want to do is fighting a tent you've never pitched in your life before. Yeah. Especially if you're a bit cold or it's raining and it's windy, which it might be.

SPEAKER_06 43:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

Um, there's nothing worse than trying to pitch a tent that you're not particularly familiar with.

SPEAKER_04 43:39

Yeah. Yeah, it's gonna be a new one for me.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

Oh, this would be fun.

SPEAKER_04 43:56

For people starting out who've never like they say they've run. Some ultras and they'd like to get out into the further countryside, deeper countryside, taller countryside, like the mountains. Um, what would you say to them? How's the best way to go about taking that next step?

SPEAKER_01 44:15

Well, I'd say if they're running rooted ultras, so ones where they just follow, then they should learn to do a little bit of navigation first. Um, you know, and there's plenty of nav courses out there, or you can go and do a little bit of orienteering. Yeah. Um, there's plenty of local or we're lucky down here, there's plenty of local orienteering groups putting events on. Um, and you can go and learn how and do a bit of navigation there, or just get an OS map out and take it out. I mean, some people try and run these courses um because, for example, the Cape Roth Ultra you and the Dragonsback, I'm sure you had the option of downloading a GPX file.

SPEAKER_04 44:53

Most of them just follow the GPX file.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

Well, that's all very well until the battery dies or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 44:59

Yeah, or the or the the clag comes down and you still got to be able to do some navigation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

And I mean the best thing to do is to either do it fully on a map or or have a mix and match. So I will have my map, but if I had a sort of questionable point in the dark or the clag, okay, we'll just bring our S maps up. Where am I? Oh, I'm here. Oh, I should the path should be over there at 100 metres. Okay, well, we'll just check the compass and lock off that way.

SPEAKER_04 45:24

It's probably best to buddy up, isn't it? Because if you're gonna even if you're just gonna go to the beacons or something, reckon beacons.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

If you're not used to doing the mountain yet, and you need to start within your level. So if you've never done anything in the mountains before, then you want to go and do something small, like I don't know, the sugar loaf or something like that, before you go somewhere bigger.

SPEAKER_06 45:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

Um, because the weather can change so quickly, you can go from being, and I have done, from being in shorts and t-shirt one minute with amazing views. Do you see a weather front coming in? Yeah, ten minutes later you can't see your hand in front of your face.

SPEAKER_04 45:59

Yeah. Yeah, that yeah, that gets scary then. And if you haven't prepared yourself before it gets to you, sometimes it's too late.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

Yes, you can see. I know that's really bad.

SPEAKER_04 46:25

Because I'm I'm always interested in parents, you know, that take their children out into the wilds and then get them in, you know, one attached to the countryside and nature and two that they become more robust and they learn never things about themselves and life by doing it.

SPEAKER_01 46:41

Oh well they do. His first mountain was age three and a quarter, which was the the sugar loaf in Wales. Yeah. We'd been orienteering, um we had a week's orienteering down there. Well, it might have been when we were in Pembrokeshire, I can't remember, but anyway. Um we also stopped at the Story Arms, and we were just going to walk up the first ridge to where you can see Corndy and Pennyfan, but we got to the top of the ridge, and he just thought, I want to go up there. And it's like, well, I'm not sure you'll make it, but we'll try. But he damn well did.

SPEAKER_08 47:10

Right. He got all the way up to the top of Corndee. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

Uh and that was yeah, that was age four.

SPEAKER_08 47:15

Right.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

Um, yeah, so three and a quarter was his first mountains, and that was the late district. The first night we had to stay in Windenmere because Ambulse was flooded and we couldn't get to the campsites at Langdale. The following night we camped at Langdale and the storms were coming through. You could hear this steam train wind coming up the valley, you could hear it coming through the campsite, then it would hit the tent, rattle, rattle, rattle, and zoom off. It took the um campsite marquee down overnight. Gosh. Um, oh yeah, we had some fantastic, amazing times. You know, you've got to have a bit of weather, you know, get real adventure going.

SPEAKER_04 47:54

Well, yeah, you look back on those. I bet those are like fond memories, aren't they? Oh, absolutely. Laying on the beach somewhere that you've forgotten where you were.

SPEAKER_01 48:02

Yeah. Yeah, no, I can't do lying on beaches.

SPEAKER_04 48:05

No, no, I don't imagine you can. I have to say that we have walked at the fastest pace that I think I've ever walked at for the whole of this interview. And you took off straight away, which I yeah, I don't have a problem with, but I am fascinated to is this just something that you've developed over time? Do you go everywhere at this speed?

SPEAKER_01 48:25

Walking-wise, yeah, because it's useful. Because if you're gonna run a hundred miles or whatever the distance, unless you're someone like Kim Collison, you're not gonna run all of it. No, you're gonna have to walk some of it. So, what you need to develop is a fast hiking pace. Yeah, because it's because also it's no good running until you can't run anymore, because then you find you can't walk fast either.

unknown 48:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

So you have a balance, and certainly for the mountain marathons, the advice is walk the down, sorry, walk the up and run the downs and the flats.

SPEAKER_05 48:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:58

And I apply the same, unless I'm in a tearing hurry, I apply that to the ultras as well. Um, so if I am walking, then I try and walk quickly.

SPEAKER_07 49:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

Because it uses the muscles in a different way. So if you're going a long way, you're not moving the muscles in the same way all the time and ending up perhaps with a repetition injury.

SPEAKER_04 49:21

Yeah, that's really good advice. I don't think people realise, you know, when you say you enter a hundred mile, you do a hundred mile event and people look at you like you're mad, that they, you know, that it isn't all it isn't run all the way for the mere mortals like us. And that you know, speed walking or hike speed hiking is very much a tactic, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 49:45

It's part of and it is, it's a skill, you have to build yourself up to it. Because you'll find if you're used to dawdling around everywhere, you'll find that you can't actually walk that quick.

SPEAKER_04 49:54

Yeah. We didn't actually get to the bottom of that.

SPEAKER_01 50:09

No, we didn't because we stopped at the Cape Roth, didn't we? So I yeah, no, so I say the lecture of us I've done DL3D, Cape Roth Ultra at the end of May. Um, June, July, yeah, late and 15th July. Um, I've probably got a mountain marathon at the end of August on the Isle of Aren. Um, and then October I'm running the Kim om at the end of, but I'm also running late in a day in the middle of October, and I might do the tour to Hell Reven again in December because that was a really good race.

SPEAKER_04 50:35

Oh, in December. Do you go up the striding edge?

SPEAKER_01 50:38

No, no, it's what what it does is it starts in Askham, um, runs west, um, and then it doesn't go to the summit of Hell Revenue because I don't think the race would ever run if it did that.

SPEAKER_04 50:49

That's what I thought when you said.

SPEAKER_01 50:51

But we had um a very interesting descent of sticks pass on that as it was because it was really icy and it was absolutely lethal. And in fact, on Lakes Traverse, I actually I didn't use them in the end, but I carried some micro spikes to stick on my shoes because I was thinking there might be enough ice and snow going up Kids D that I'd need them. Um there was ice and snow, but I decided it wasn't deep enough to need them. Um and if it had been icy more than it was descending Kids D, I would have stopped and put them on.

SPEAKER_08 51:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 51:25

Um, I mean my orienteering shoes have got tanks and tips, but I can't do an ultra in those where you've got sections on um lanes.

SPEAKER_04 51:34

Right, yeah, so footwear choice is a big thing as well.

SPEAKER_01 51:37

Footwear choice has been an absolute pain for Cape Rath because you've got so much variety of terrain each day.

SPEAKER_06 51:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:45

I mean, day one, you're starting off on tarmac, um, but then you get into the into the fells. But some of the other days, you've got a mixture of hard packed trail and some pathless regions which are going to be just potentially tussocky boggy or heathery or where ideally I'd want my orienteering shoes, right? But I certainly don't want them if I've got to run 10k along an estate track.

SPEAKER_04 52:12

So what have you worked out a strategy then?

SPEAKER_01 52:15

I'm packing two pairs of shoes.

SPEAKER_04 52:17

Right.

SPEAKER_01 52:17

Um I know what pair I'm wearing on day one, and then I'll see how it goes.

SPEAKER_04 52:23

And what do you use? Do you have a favourite or do you just find what works for you?

SPEAKER_01 52:28

Well previously I've worn I've actually worn my VJ orienteering shoes for lots of my ultras.

SPEAKER_08 52:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

Um, but I wore VJ Ultras, which are they still got the good grip on rock, right? But they had a bit more cushioning. I wore them for Tor de Helvelin, but I can't run in them for more than about 55 miles before getting a blister.

SPEAKER_08 52:52

Yeah. So I've now trying the Innovate Innovate Trail Fly 300, which had a really good write up. Right.

SPEAKER_01 53:04

They've been pretty good in mud, but I ran the lakes traversing them and I had no problems with my feet. I've also got a pair of Olympus for ultras, but I've got quite wide feet, so I can't wear really narrow shoes.

SPEAKER_04 53:21

I know Olympus are good for wide feet, are they?

SPEAKER_01 53:23

The ultras are. So I'm going to wear them for day one because I haven't got so much an early terrain. My plan is to wear the the innervates for the other days, but if I get to a point where my feet are swollen, which might happen, I know I can go back to wearing the ultras. They're just they're not as good in the terrain. But to be honest, I'm used to wearing my orienteering shoes, which are really tight, close-fit shoes, which give me obviously the ability to run off the terrain quickly.

SPEAKER_06 53:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:52

You know, off path.

SPEAKER_06 53:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

And it's adapting to the fact that I know I can't use those for eight days. I've got to find something else that, and it's going to have to be a compromise.

SPEAKER_07 54:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:03

Because unless you're going to carry four pairs of shoes in your pack each day, you're not going to be able to run every section in the perfect footwear.

SPEAKER_04 54:10

And you're nearly always going to have soaking wet feet as well, aren't you?

SPEAKER_01 54:13

Yeah, I don't believe in waterproof socks because we're going to have river crossings. Yeah. And if you've got waterproof socks on and you go in a river, you've got a foot full of water.

SPEAKER_04 54:22

Yeah, I read that a lot on particularly on like social media stuff about ultra running about oh, buy these, you know, sealskins or for want of a better name. And they just to me just lock the water in, don't they? I mean, how do you dry your feet out at all or let any water out?

SPEAKER_01 54:41

Well you'd have to take your shoes off. Now I know Sabrina Verger wears waterproof socks when she was doing things like her Waynewright 214 record.

SPEAKER_04 54:48

Um it shows what I know then.

SPEAKER_01 54:52

Except for the fact that for her, it obviously works. Now I don't know whether she tapes the top of them so the water can't go in or whatever. I have used waterproof socks for canoeing and they're really good in the winter because your feet don't get so cold.

SPEAKER_08 55:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

There's no doubt about that. Um and a chap I ran a kim with in Scotland some years ago, um, he he ran in waterproof socks, and I was taking a direct line through all these this sinuous river.

SPEAKER_07 55:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:20

So I was I was on this stones in the river, on the stones in the river.

SPEAKER_08 55:23

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 55:24

And he was running along the edge, and he was just saying, You're determined that I'm gonna get wet feet, aren't you? Because he knew that if he went in the river, he'd just have wet feet for the rest of the day. And so I just put up with the fact I know I'm gonna have wet feet. I've been running races with wet feet for all these years, but I do try and prepare my feet beforehand and make sure.

SPEAKER_04 55:43

Well, foot care is so important, isn't it? Especially on like an eight-day ultra like Cape Roth.

SPEAKER_01 55:49

Well, your race can be ended by not looking after your feet. Yeah, you know, you can have the fitness and all the training you like, but if you allow your feet to get really bad, then you really have had it.

SPEAKER_04 56:03

And that can't that comes back to uh camp admin, doesn't it? I mean that's one of the first things you need to address, isn't it, when you get your shoes and socks off.

SPEAKER_01 56:10

Get your shoes and socks off. Yeah, get some air to them and try not to put more footwear on.

SPEAKER_04 56:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 56:18

Try and keep your feet bare.

SPEAKER_04 56:20

Yeah. And have you had ever had issues with swelling? Your feet swelling up over distance or something.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

Yes, definitely. Um and and hands as well, actually.

SPEAKER_08 56:31

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

And that's that's been more because especially carrying when you're carrying a pack, sometimes it can just get a bit of a nerve. Yeah, and you've you've uh had a little bit of hand swelling as well before now. It goes down in no time at all. Yeah, um, it's normally a function that something's slightly too tight or sometimes that you're you're getting tired and your posture's changed, that's right, such that you're not getting the blood flow properly through the system. But now I have had to loosen shoes off before now.

SPEAKER_06 57:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 57:02

Um, but if you're in and out of rivers, I find that doesn't happen. It's if you're running courses which are dry or in the summer, um, and you've got no opportunity of getting your feet sort of cool anywhere, not necessarily sopping wet, yeah, which is cool.

SPEAKER_04 57:42

It was a great walk at pace. I enjoyed it. I don't know how far we went. Did you did you record it?

SPEAKER_01 57:48

Yeah, I did. Now, how far did we walk? Um, just short of six miles.

SPEAKER_04 57:53

Oh wow, at a good pace. Is that an hour and a half? Yeah, yeah. Very good. Well done.

SPEAKER_01 57:57

So that's not bad going. Um, it was great, really nice chatting to you.

SPEAKER_04 58:01

And it was lovely chatting to you, and so much knowledge, and obviously there's loads more in there, I'm sure, with all that experience you've got. And um, best of luck with the rest of this year, and I'll see you. Yeah, thank you very much. Up in the lakes. I'll see you up in the lakes three weeks as well. A couple of weeks' time, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:15

Yeah, yeah, two and a half weeks' time.

SPEAKER_04 58:17

Good, looking forward to that.

SPEAKER_00 58:18

Yeah, me too. Hopefully, we'll get some nice weather.

SPEAKER_04 58:20

Yeah, that's that's what I don't want is rain and putting the tent up and down in the rain.

SPEAKER_00 58:24

No, hopefully hopefully we'll get some good weather. Yeah, right. Thanks very much.

SPEAKER_04 58:28

You're welcome, Sarah.

SPEAKER_00 58:29

Cheers, go.