Ep 28 - There is a first time for everything including going Ultra

In this episode Kev interviews, on the trail, Lynne Rashleigh and Caroline Dobbin.  Two women new to Ultra running about their first time experiences. If you are planning stepping up to Ultra distance this is a must listen. If you are a very experienced ultra runner why not go back and remember your first time!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:13

I can say it next installation.

SPEAKER_03 0:39

Hello and welcome to the Eight Station Podcast. This is episode 28. Well, I've been around for two and a half years doing this now, and hopefully you'll have gained some knowledge from it. Maybe stepped up to do your first ultra or gone on to do 50, 100, or maybe even 200 miles. That is the new distance, apparently. In that time, I've never interviewed anybody who is new to ultra running. I thought it's about time we took a look at what it's like to get into your first ultra. So I've got two cracking interviews coming up. One with Lynn Raisley and one with Caroline Dubbin, both from my running club Heart Roadrunners, who have undertaken their first Ultras and both have very different experiences from it. And hopefully that this will provide you with a whole lot of uh learning if you're considering stepping up from your marathon distance, or maybe you haven't even run a marathon yet and want to give it a go. There'll be a lot of good advice on here from Lynn and Caroline with a summary from myself on how you might go about approaching your first ultra. So without further ado, here are the cowbells of inspiration. So I'm with Lynn Raishley this morning, and we're having a little jog around our local country park, and I'm talking to Lynn because she's done her first ultra and I want to get some background into what that whole experience was like. Hello and uh so how what's your running background Lynn to start with?

SPEAKER_04 2:37

Okay, well I really kind of got into running uh probably into my middle 30s. Um I had when I had my kids, um, neither of them slept very well. And someone told me if you take them for a long run in a push chair, then that might help. So um I kind of got into running there, bought myself a double buggy, and would take the kids off just down the canal and um met lots of other mums doing a very similar thing, and um yeah, that was kind of how it all started.

SPEAKER_03 3:08

So that that's interesting to start with. So is there I've just got this image of a mums running club with buggies, is it? Did you meet other mums as well and go with them?

SPEAKER_04 3:21

Yes, yeah. I kind of joined an NCT group, and um so some of the mums were already into running, and so we would meet up on the canal. We lived in Kingston at the time, and we saw lots of mums out pushing their buggies, and we thought, oh, we'll start a little running group. And then when my children started nursery, I used to run them to nursery, drop them off, take the younger one, and go for a run by myself by the canal, and I think that's when I got probably into running longer distances.

SPEAKER_03 3:49

Oh great, that's great. So did you join a running club then or were you just going out doing your own thing?

SPEAKER_04 3:57

I just went on my own whenever um I felt I needed to get out when um we were having a particularly tricky morning at home with the children. Um so yeah, no, it was really just doing it by myself or with friends. I'd been a member of the gym and stuff before but not really ever been a member of a running club.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

Okay, so when did you join a running club?

SPEAKER_04 4:16

Not until I moved to Fleet in 2019. Um we joined unfortunately just as Covid hit. I was always scared of joining a running club because I kind of thought it would be elite athletes who go off running really fast and I'd be struggling at the back to keep up, but joined Hart in 2019 and haven't really looked back.

SPEAKER_03 4:37

That's fantastic. So really you're you've been running what well 20 years, yeah, but as a in a club as a member, what four years? Yes, yeah, and those were so COVID year was at least one of those, I guess. Yeah. So what how did you did you graduate step up through the distances or yeah?

SPEAKER_04 5:04

Well I kind of set myself a challenge last year to run five five Ks, five ten K's and a half marathon, and I realised by the end of the year that I probably couldn't do any of those any faster. Um and also I really enjoyed just going out for a run, running the miles with the dog and not worrying too much about speed. Then I spoke to a couple of people at Heart Road Runners who said we'll maybe give um an ultra try.

SPEAKER_03 5:32

So let's get this right. So you got to half marathon, did you?

SPEAKER_04 5:37

Yes, yeah. I ran um I ran one I ran the London marathon when my um first got back into running, so when I was 30, and then I hadn't done any other distances since then. Um and then got into yeah, did I've done fleet a couple of times since we lived here.

SPEAKER_03 5:55

That's the fleet half marathon.

SPEAKER_04 5:57

Yeah, that's right, I did the farm breath. I got my daughter into running um during COVID. She was struggling a little bit with like a lot of teenagers, so she got into running too. So that's why the year before we did the fighting 5-50 case.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

Oh that's great. So, how did this come about then that you would decide to run an ultra or you must have been some influence?

SPEAKER_04 6:23

Well, yes, there's two lovely ladies at the running club who um I run with regularly and also do a boot camp with, and they talked often of their experiences, and um it just looked in a strange way quite appealing.

SPEAKER_06 6:38

Right.

SPEAKER_04 6:38

Um and then I just felt well I really needed a challenge for this year. Um, both of them suggested starting at something fairly small, so like a 55 kilometre, and I thought, well, I'll give the training a go, see how it goes, and um next thing I knew I was signed up to run it with Lizzie.

SPEAKER_03 6:58

Yeah, those two women and Lizzie and Hannah, I presume.

SPEAKER_04 7:01

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 7:02

Yeah, well known on the podcast.

SPEAKER_04 7:04

I think I uttered the words Ultra before I knew it. I was going down that route, but um yeah, they were actually just gave me that little bit of motivation, I think, that I needed.

SPEAKER_03 7:15

Yeah, that thing that's outside influence always helps, I think. Even so had you even heard of Ultra before it was suggested, did it cross your mind?

SPEAKER_04 7:27

Um I think I heard of it when I joined the running club. Um there's a couple of people whose um stories I followed, and then um speaking to a few people at the running club who have done them, and then I kind of followed a few people online and thought, oh, it looks like it's something that anybody could do if you put in the training and the time, you can walk them, run them, yeah, and um they happen all over the world in the country, so um that kind of inspired me.

SPEAKER_03 7:55

And so let's talk about the training then. So, did you follow a program or did is it something different you did? What did you change to get ready for your ultra?

SPEAKER_04 8:07

Well, I think it's the training that probably filled me with fear the most because I'm a teacher and a mum and trying to fit it in. I had these visions of having to go off every morning and run 35-40 kilometres. But um taking on some some advice, I realised it was more about doing long runs back to back, and I realised that I could actually get up in the morning, go and do a long run, but a sensible non-run, long run, get up the next morning and do another one. So that's really what my training took. I was also really concerned because before when I've trained for half marathons, I've always got injured, and I was worried that the impact of doing a lot more running was gonna lead to some injury, but doing this kind of back-to-back running and doing a boot camp alongside really helped and I just felt I got stronger and stronger and loved going out without that pressure.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

So that uh the boot camp type training or strength and conditioning really, isn't it? Training, did that make uh a big difference?

SPEAKER_04 9:08

Oh absolutely, I kind of caught myself running past shop windows a few times, realising how I wasn't running up straight. When I was waking up in the next morning, it was my um back that was aching and my body just felt tired. And that's when Hannah, who runs some boot camps, said, you know, come on, try and do a bit more upper body fitness, take some pressure off those legs. I also spoke to another person called Jed at the running club and a little bit of running with him, and he said that yeah, it was all about just being a bit stronger. Um my running style was fine, that was not while I was getting injured. So I picked up the boot camps. I would try and do 10-15k run and then do a boot camp on the end of it. Um so their advice to me was very much is time on your feet and running when you're tired. And that was the one thing I didn't want to do was running when I was tired. So um, yeah, no, I found that really, really helped.

SPEAKER_03 10:05

So how did you choose your first uh ultra and which one was it?

SPEAKER_04 10:10

Well I asked around. I also do a little running club on a Tuesday morning, it's a very social run, and a couple of ladies there had done the Goring Gap 55. They said it was very flat, very friendly, local, which to me was quite important. I didn't really like the idea of travelling down the night before and the nerves kicking in and being somewhere I didn't know.

SPEAKER_03 10:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:30

So um we went for that one.

SPEAKER_03 10:31

So is that goring as in goring streetly?

SPEAKER_04 10:34

Um yeah, just the other side of Reading, I think.

SPEAKER_03 10:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:37

Down there. So it was very much a well we thought it was very much a river run. It did turn out to be quite a lot of fields as well.

SPEAKER_06 10:43

Right.

SPEAKER_04 10:44

But it was definitely one that looked flatter and uh good starting distance I was there to believe.

SPEAKER_03 10:50

And that was that was uh a Thames Path a lot of it then, was it?

SPEAKER_04 10:53

That's right, yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 10:55

Okay, and so how did that go? How did you find the actual event?

SPEAKER_04 11:00

Well I have to admit I was very nervous. Um I ran it with Lizzie from the running club, which was so lovely. In the leads up, the thing I was most struggling was with was nutrition. I kind of can't even really take on water when I run normally, um so I was quite worried about that. So I'd been on a few training runs with Lizzie and also with Hannah, um, practicing drinking water, watching them eat and trying to do that. So that was the thing I was most worried about, and actually going into the run, I still could only really cope with water and gels when running. Um, but having Lizzie was great. Um probably on reflection, we probably ran the first part a bit too fast. I think the excitement of it. Um we ran probably the first 40-45 kilometres, and that was great, lovely and flat. Lizzie ran as if she was eating a picnic. I just watched her. Um we didn't really stop at too many of the fuel stations because we had our own water. Perhaps in reflection, that might have been a better idea, and all was good up to about 50 kilometres, and I think that's probably when my novice side of me as an ultra runner kicked in. I had cramp in every possible place I could imagine I could have cramp. But they were lovely. I stopped at a fuel station, they gave me something to help, some electrolytes to help with a cramp, gave me a bit of motivation and said, walk it, walk they in 5k. So we ended up doing a bit of a, well, it was a bit of a walk nag run.

SPEAKER_06 12:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:37

And um yeah, and finished it feeling absolutely wiped out, but oh my gosh, the feeling of elation. I never thought, I turned 50 next year, last year, I never thought I'd be running an ultra of 50. So it was an incredible feeling.

SPEAKER_03 12:51

Oh that's that's fantastic. And so on the nutrition side, did um did you eat any solid foods? Was it all gels and water?

SPEAKER_04 12:59

It was literally gels, and to be honest, I only really manage one gel. What I find is when I eat solid, it makes me feel really sick. And the same generally with water. So I made sure that with the water we did walk up some of the bigger hills, and that's when I try to drink water. And I tried training drinking and eating more solid food, but I just ended up with stomach cramps and not feeling great. Whereas the gels, another friend had recommended a type of really natural gel, can't remember the name of this at the moment, um, and that seemed to work okay.

SPEAKER_03 13:34

Yeah, maybe you need to.

SPEAKER_04 13:36

Did you try any electrolyte in your actual drink or do you just think and I think maybe on reflection when I kind of was talking to people at the end, that's what most people had said, or maybe you should have put something like so. That was a learning curve. But um, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:53

Yeah, I I found with uh build up, if you build up the distances that the nutrition side was the hardest thing for me to get right.

SPEAKER_06 14:01

Right.

SPEAKER_03 14:02

I had similar issues to you, but I found that I had to get onto the solid food, even if it wasn't a lot of it, you know, keep the bulk down. Right. But the further up you go, obviously you can't stay on gels or electrolytes the whole time, and you have to start eating more natural foods. So that might be one that you might have to look into. So um what what sort of what was the was there a cutoff time for the Goring Gap?

SPEAKER_04 14:32

Um there wasn't a cut-off time. I think they did say they would start to close off about 12 hours or something like that.

SPEAKER_06 14:39

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:40

Um, but um we had a little um idea in our mind that we would try and do it under six hours. I have to say, when we got to five and a half hours and we saw, I think we probably saw the 50 kilometre thing now, I was like, oh, this isn't going to be doable, but we managed to finish it in 5.59 and 34 seconds.

SPEAKER_03 15:01

So you remembered the time. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 15:05

Yeah, my daughter um surprised me and came and visited, and uh I saw her little face at the end, and um we've been through a lot recently running and stuff, so it was really lovely, and that kind of gave me a smallest little sprint finish.

SPEAKER_03 15:20

Excellent, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:22

So she was there at the end, yeah, she was there at the end, and actually I wasn't really worried about speed, it was more I just really wanted to prove to myself that I could do that kind of distance, and I wanted to do that distance and not be injured at the end of it, yeah, be able to get up a few days later and still go for a good run. Yeah, that was uh yeah, I mean I think that's a really good aim.

SPEAKER_03 15:44

I think a lot of people that go into these, you know, it's all about time, and then they're chasing the time and don't enjoy the actual experience of running an ultra. Oh, absolutely an ultra distance.

SPEAKER_04 15:57

I think that's what someone has said to me. They said the difference is you'll be able to run and you'll be able to look around and take in the scenery. It's not like a half marathon where you put your head down and you're going for your personal best. And they really enjoyed that, and we were able to run alongside people and chat. There was a lot of people there doing their first ultra, I think because of the distance and it being flat. Yeah, um, so it was lovely to hear their stories too and their motivation.

SPEAKER_03 16:23

So you'd recommend the Goring Gap as a as a starting one then?

SPEAKER_04 16:27

Oh absolutely, definitely. I mean the fact that it was flat, the fact that there was a lot of like points to stop and there were a few people who did drop out for various things and they were very quick to come and pick them up. And yeah, no, it was a really lovely running through the town a few times, running past pubs by the river, yeah, gave us a real sense of motivation and everyone was out clapping and cheering. So no, it's a really lovely absolutely recommend that one.

SPEAKER_03 16:54

Yeah. So um deep down for you, what the does the Ultra experience bring? You know, I'm thinking more about getting out in the nature more than running on roads and this type of thing. Is that something that you you like to do?

SPEAKER_04 17:10

Oh absolutely, I think that's the thing why I run is because I find it's really good for the mind. It's really good to just clear my mind, make me think more positively, and what better way of doing that than outside in the open air? And I think that's what I really liked when I woke up in the morning was the fact that I kept saying to myself, this is just gonna be a really lovely run outside in a new place with new people. And um yeah, so that was uh rather than oh my gosh, we're running into a road and we're gonna go as fast as we can. And so yeah, no, it was a really positive experience.

SPEAKER_03 17:45

And so is it gonna be another one?

SPEAKER_04 17:48

I hope so. I've set myself a little challenge now to try and keep running the distance and kind of trying to do 50-60 kilometres a week but over the course of a week. Yeah, and then I'm hoping perhaps in October, I'm still debating whether to do something similar or whether to go slightly up on the distance but stay flat or keep the distance the same and go a bit more hilly. So I'm just kind of having a look around to see what's around at the moment, but absolutely it's giving me the bug to do it.

SPEAKER_03 18:19

That's brilliant. I think that's a really good um thing that you're doing in your mind as well. Um people they they don't tend to take the elevation into account and just look at the distance, um as long as it's an ultra distance. I think it's really important to pick the right terrain as well for your next step up and then train for that. So if you're introducing more hills, then you need more hill training or strength work in the legs at least. So that's that's a really important approach. Have you had any thoughts on any? Have you looked at any?

SPEAKER_04 18:58

Well, I was looking at there's a London Ultra, but I think I might have missed the deadline for that, so I had to look at that. Um but um people have suggested a few others. I think there's one in the Hampshire Harrow, well I can't remember what it's called, but there's a few um yeah, that one. So um I'm kind of just having a look around at the moment, but um yeah, it was definitely I think the thing I wanted to make sure is that I could run for that amount of time without getting injured before I kind of started putting in hills and things and you know coastlines and everything else.

SPEAKER_06 19:29

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 19:30

Whereas now I have to say I was that was the thing I think I was most surprised about is the next morning I definitely ached, but nothing hurt.

SPEAKER_06 19:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:38

Um and I think that's why I'm yeah, gonna look for another. I do like the idea of doing it perhaps something coastal, perhaps something up in the late district. Um a little bit more of a challenge, but I want to do it gradually. Gradually. I'm certainly not gonna go off and do these hundred miles or the crazy things that other people do just yet.

SPEAKER_03 19:58

I know that's that's a really good approach to it, but it's nice to hear that you are you might look to go to the lake district or something with more scenery as well than just down south.

SPEAKER_04 20:10

Yes, yeah. And I think there's so many people that once you say oh you've done an ultra and they're like, oh, I mean the boot cam that I do, there's three or four other people who already said well, I've always thought of doing that as well, but just didn't really want to do it on my own, um, with it's such a long distance. So there's a little group of us looking in together, all very similar, all just want a bit more of a challenge, yeah, all thinking that we're rubbish runners. Um so no, that will be fun. Looking forward to doing that.

SPEAKER_03 20:39

Yeah, I I think that's a key thing, really. It's that first step, isn't it? And then it's not until you speak to people that have done them that you think, oh, there are other people out there, and uh, I'm sure you know I could do it if they could do it, type of attitude comes in. And if you can do them together and even talk the stories together, I think it all helps to motivate, doesn't it, and make you take that step.

SPEAKER_04 21:05

Oh, absolutely. I mean I think that's the thing that absolutely blew me away on the day was the massive age range of people, first of all, all shapes, sizes, figures, ages, and then talking to people, some people saying, you know, I'm definitely gonna do the do it as a walk, but it's a challenge, you know. I'm doing four ultras, four consecutive weekends. Everyone seems to have their own kind of little challenge, but still, you know, wanting to do something with other people. So I mean there was quite a few people who were doing it like mothers and daughters and fathers and sons. Oh nice. And I thought that was really lovely.

SPEAKER_03 21:37

Yeah. So would you would you prefer that type? I'm presuming it was it a looped course or was it continuous?

SPEAKER_04 21:46

Yeah, I think there was the option of doing a half marathon or the ultra. So there was a tiny little loop at the beginning, just so the people who were doing the half marathon could cut back, but the rest of it was a loop. I definitely Like that idea. I'm not sure if someone had taught me to turn round and run back the way I'd come. I'd have been up for that. Or if it had been a couple of laps. Yeah. Um, so no, the loop was let was lovely.

SPEAKER_03 22:11

Yeah, I it's it's a big dip. My first proper long one was on a looped course, and I chose that just because I thought oh I can get uh some food in. It was on a five-mile loop, so you know I can I can get a stop and nutrition, and but that can also defeat you as well because it's too easy to stop. Yeah, so it's a real call to know also select the type of course. Um it would be your first one.

SPEAKER_04 22:41

I was quite scared about the navigation because I always assumed with those distance it would be self-navigating. My map reading skills are pretty poor, so that was another thing I think which drove me towards this one to start with, was um self, you know, clearly absolutely clear, there was no chance of going wrong. And like you say, regular stop pass just for water, um, paramedics around should you need it, so um, which was great.

SPEAKER_03 23:06

Yeah, yeah, I think because it is only 4.85 miles further than a marathon, so you know to go up to 50k distance is um not as hard I think as as um people might dread. Although of course if you never run a marathon it would be a different experience.

SPEAKER_04 23:27

So it's funny how my mindset changed though. As soon as I got to the marathon, I was suddenly like, wow, this is incredible. I can now run further than a marathon, and then like five minutes later, oh no, it really hurts. So I think if I hadn't known, I would probably have kept going. And yeah, no, definitely. I mean I I mean all of people who do longer distances, but I think it's really taught me that it's all about training, and like you said, it's all about the nutrition, and I definitely need to sort that out before I try and extend the distance. But um that's a good challenge, so yeah, happy to give that a try.

SPEAKER_03 24:03

Yeah, yeah, it's definitely the next stage as you go up, and then you know, then it becomes navigation and equipment and kit, and you know, as it goes on, you tend to be adding in more problems if you like. They take it away from being simple running, which is quite nice at 50k because you still are, you know, like you say, you can do the whole thing almost on gels and water and get round, so it really does need a bit more thought the next step up.

SPEAKER_04 24:36

Yeah, that's the thing. When they sent like a kit list, which I think was a kit list for that one, but also beyond, and I thought, oh my god, I don't have any of these things, and that did I open my eyes a little bit and just little tips for preparation from people who don't ultra it's like I don't know, simple things like cutting your toenails, like having a a change of socks, you know, if you get because it was quite muddy and wet in places, yeah. Um just little things like that were really helpful, but yes, I think I can imagine the preparation for the next step is a lot more, but um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:10

Yeah, no, I think that's I mean those little things you just picked out there, they can end your race, not having cut your toenails, believe it or not. And uh people, if you knew interult or or beginning, those aren't things that come into your head particularly, and it's great that you've highlighted that. So I think part of the process is learning as well as much as you can, uh that goes beyond marathon uh that you wouldn't consider, you know, it's a total plus the fact most marathons that run on the road, so you have a totally different approach to the whole thing, and like you say, it's more head down looking at the watch, time you know, whereas Ultra has other experiences that you need to get the body ready for, really.

SPEAKER_04 26:04

Yes, yeah. It was quite interesting watching the way other people were tackling it as well. I mean, there was definitely quite a lot of people who said it was their first ultras who were doing this um kind of eight minutes running, few minutes walking, um, and they said that was because they kept um getting injuries when they ran constantly. There were other people who were actually walking up every single hill, um, and there were people who were um just decided to walk at all, and I just pick up some ideas and thought, you know, the next time I think particularly when my legs could start to get really tired, I would try that kind of Jefferson approach. So I'd done that with Hannah a couple of times and we'd managed to you know run quite successfully for a longer distance. So um yeah, it was nice to watch and learn.

SPEAKER_03 26:48

Yeah, I think um all those things that you mentioned the you know, walking up hills, doing um the uh run-walk strategy, which both Hannah and I used in Ultra Rail 50 really, so you never really stop doing that. In fact, you probably do more and more of it the further you go.

SPEAKER_06 27:09

Right.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

So it's good stuff to keep in there anyway. Don't ever think that walking eight uh running eight minutes and walking two minutes is not running. You know, it's all part of a strategy to get you round.

SPEAKER_04 27:25

And I think also having someone with me, I mean that would be the thing. I mean, having you know, I was very lucky to have a very confident and very enthusiastic ultra runner with me, but just that constant reassurance that you're doing okay, it's okay to walk, take a break, drink some water, um, was really really important. And I just my initial nerves kind of just disappeared once we were on the run. Having someone talking at you when you're really tired was really nice as well. And someone who would engage with other runners a little bit more as well, you know, when you're tired yourself, yeah. Um having a chat was really was really good.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

Yeah, that's Lizzie's speciality, really.

SPEAKER_04 28:04

She's incredible.

SPEAKER_03 28:07

On that, the um it's fantastic what she's doing, and I know Lizzie's going out with a few more yet are starting out, so and there probably isn't anybody better to get you around your first one in terms of motivation and you know keeping you going and chatting. Um but do you find that at some points you like some solitude when you're out on your runs? Do you run alone a lot?

SPEAKER_04 28:34

Or yeah, definitely. I'm quite I think we're very lucky where we live. I mean I do come along to Heart Road Runners when I can. I haven't joined a lovely Fitness Friends of Fleet group, but then the other days I tend to go for longer runs just with a dog, and that's absolutely great. Um as a teacher, you know, life in the classroom is quite full-on, so it's quite nice to um have that time to think and plan. And in fact, we did have times in the run, I think, particularly when Lizzie was eating and there was some silence, um which was good um having her mobile picnic, but um yeah no, I think that's really one of the things I said before that really got me into running was just having that time for yourself as well. And I think I was kind of going out for a runs thinking I'm gonna do a fast 10k run because I've got an event and coming back and then always watching the clock. Whereas when I was training for these ultras, I literally put strava on but just went for a nice run along the canal, different places. Sometimes my daughter would drop me off 30 kilometres away and I would run back and just things like that, yeah, trying new places to run. Um I'm lucky my family all run, and so they did little parts of the running with me, but yeah, equally had time by myself, which is really good. And I think I came out the end of it really proud of what I'd done, but also really driven for another challenge, which was good.

SPEAKER_03 30:01

Yeah, that's great if the motivation's still in there. Oh just and and I definitely think that you know one of the big parts of it, and there's so much, so many people that have had issues in their lives, or um just coping with stress of work or whatever, family issues that are in ultra running. Um, and I think it is I don't know, one of it's part of the reef, and the other part is the addictive nature of it. You almost got to be obsessed about something, so why not running or ultra running? Um, so it's a really good thing, I think, to get out. And myself, I I love being on my own. Some of my best runs have been racking a dragon's bike race alone and completely alone in remote places, and there's something quite liberating about it as well. So hopefully that you know, I'm not saying you have to run on your own, it can be quite dangerous as a woman sometimes, but uh yeah, I think that freedom is is a really big part of it for me anyway.

SPEAKER_04 31:11

Yeah, and I think that's something I really would like to do. I mean, I'd like to face the next Ultra probably with somebody else, particularly if it's you know someone else I know, if it's just for company. But I do like that idea, just in the future, having those skills to be able to go and navigate. Absolutely, you know. Sometimes, you know, as a mum and you feel a bit redundant, you know, you're not always thinking you're learning new things, but this has given me um you know something else to really challenge and plan and look for, so yeah, which is good.

SPEAKER_03 31:42

Is it something that I don't know what you teach, but is it something you can take back to school at all or any of these do you learn anything?

SPEAKER_04 31:49

Uh well funny you say that because I teach primary and I'm hugely into sport and mental health. And um I do uh run a cross-country club in the mornings and the children knew that I was running this because I was raising money for charity for hospice. And um, since I've done that, a number of them have said, right, I've done park runs now. Um I'm looking forward to trying some longer distances. Mrs. Rushley, which distance do you think I should have a go at? Um some of them have even said I told my mum or dad they need to get out running. So and we use running a lot in the class for kind of like brain gym, um, particularly um with I teach here six just to get them active and out. So that's been great, really great. And they've just been, I think, you know, they see me just as a teacher, but when they hear that I've got a life outside and I do these things, yeah, it's been really, really nice, and it's just wonderful how much sport and in fact running has become such a big part of school life again now. I think we've gone through many years of it being very sedimentary, yeah, and now it's definitely back into you know these kids need this.

SPEAKER_03 33:01

Yeah, as a an old timer and where sport was very much part of school, um I'm really pleased to hear that, and it is I'm so pleased that you're giving inspiration to these children because it's much needed. I think the whole um lack of physical education and the farming out of it and everything has not been great, I don't think, for a certain generation. Yes, physical activity really does change. You know, you you don't have to be a brilliant sports man or woman, but you I think the uh just burning off that energy and feeling good in that way is big tea.

SPEAKER_04 33:44

And you have a lot of children that don't excel in academics, and they might not excel as a sprinter, and I think we don't tend to always look beyond that. Whereas I know when my daughter went to secondary school and she went to a six-form, a mixed six form, they realised she loved running longer distances, so they started entering events, so it's um looking kind of beyond that hundred metre sprinter sports day. Yeah. Actually, because I got I certainly wasn't that person. Um I much prefer the longer distances to sprinting. Um I think that's okay, that's something else that initially put me off joining a running club, so I thought I'm not a fast runner. Um but that was also something talking to Lizzie who said I'm never gonna run a race as a sprinter, but actually I've got endurance and I've got motivation, which is good.

SPEAKER_03 34:35

Absolutely, and I think that's something else that will come across to children as well, is the whole motivational thing as well that you can get out and you find so much more, don't you, about yourself and what your abilities are.

SPEAKER_04 34:48

Oh, definitely. And I like the fact that I can go for a run and I start the run maybe planning an English lesson. By the end of the run, I've planned the English lesson, planned the math lesson, I've thought about dinner, and then I'm just like looking around and enjoying you know all those things I've achieved and I've run, which is nice.

SPEAKER_03 35:06

That's brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Well, it's been lovely to get out and have a jog with you and find out more. And I'm really looking forward to seeing what you do next. Um pick the right event and uh keep training, and I'm sure you'll you'll got a long time doing this. I didn't start till I was well in my 50s either. So um you just keep going and going these days.

SPEAKER_04 35:34

Well, thank you. It's been really lovely to have the opportunity to talk through. I feel very honoured. So thank you very much and for all your support with the running club, of course, as well.

SPEAKER_03 35:44

I love it, it's great to see people doing that and then going on to inspire others. So well done Lynn. Thanks a lot. Well, that was a lovely interview, I hope you agree, from Lynn Racely, and had some great stuff in there about getting out and starting her first Ultra experience, and hopefully you've gained something out of that. But I now need to countose that experience of Lynn's with that of Caroline Dobbins, as you are now here from Caroline's interview. So I'm out in Edenbrook Country Park with Caroline Dobbin, and we're gonna have a chat about running your first ultra. Um hi Caroline.

SPEAKER_06 36:44

Hi yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:45

Uh just want to start really with your running background and how you got into it and uh whether you did anything when you were younger or if you got into it later.

SPEAKER_05 36:58

So um I suppose it goes back um 25 years. Oh right.

SPEAKER_03 37:05

To heart road runners. Oh really? If you've been with heart that long, well no, I had gap. Alright.

SPEAKER_05 37:11

And um I know I joined 25 years ago because my daughter was a year and I'd done a little bit of running on my own and um just wanted to do something a bit more.

SPEAKER_03 37:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:23

And then I did it for I suppose 16 years or so with heart and then started to get hip pain. Thought it was coming from my back.

SPEAKER_06 37:34

Right.

SPEAKER_05 37:35

So uh virtually gave up running, did swimming for a couple of years until someone said, actually it's probably not your back, it's you iliotip your band.

SPEAKER_03 37:45

Alright.

SPEAKER_05 37:46

Uh so I rejoined Heart 2018, just before we did a little bit, yeah, and of course we had lockdown.

SPEAKER_06 37:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:56

Um so yeah, I've always done a bit of running, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:02

That's that's really good. So how did you progress to actually getting to the point where you thought you wanted to run an ultra?

SPEAKER_05 38:11

Um well I'd done a couple of marathons, early days.

SPEAKER_03 38:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:18

Which ones were those? London.

SPEAKER_03 38:20

Uh both London.

SPEAKER_05 38:20

I think I've done five Londons, but all in my um first intent of running.

SPEAKER_03 38:26

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:29

And um I'd heard about the Isle of Wight because a colleague was doing it.

SPEAKER_03 38:35

Is that that's the Ultra, is it? The Ultra Isle of Wight. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:39

And um thought fantastic challenge. So um I took about two years building up to it, so it's not I didn't go into it lightly.

SPEAKER_03 38:49

Yeah. And how far is that one?

SPEAKER_05 38:51

Uh 67 miles.

SPEAKER_03 38:54

Oh right, okay, so it's right round the island, is it?

SPEAKER_05 38:57

Yeah. Or 106, 107 kilometres, whatever that equates to.

SPEAKER_06 39:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:02

Um and uh my sister-in-law had unfortunately died of cancer. Oh um and she'd worked for the Phyllis Tuckwell all her career.

SPEAKER_06 39:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:15

And I wanted to do it to raise money for the Phyllis Tuckwell.

SPEAKER_03 39:19

Right. Um local hospital. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:23

And it would have been her 60th year. So to me it was a significant event.

SPEAKER_03 39:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:30

So yeah, that's why I chose it.

SPEAKER_03 39:33

And so what would you say it was a two-year build-up, so you did like halved and um not so many organised runs, yeah, but um an awful lot of running on my own.

SPEAKER_06 39:50

Right.

SPEAKER_05 39:50

Uh increasing distances.

SPEAKER_06 39:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:53

Um came to the club to do the training, particularly the Tuesday nights.

SPEAKER_06 40:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:00

That was very good. Um listened to your podcast. Oh, really? Brilliant, yeah. Took absolutely all the advice I could get.

SPEAKER_06 40:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:11

Um you put me in touch with Lizzie Gatherer, went for a run with her. She gave me some fantastic advice. All about nutrition and things like that. Uh so yeah, just built up distances and I'd done. I'd done a 40 mile day, I'd done a 50 mile day, sort of in the build-up.

SPEAKER_03 40:36

Oh really? Right.

SPEAKER_05 40:37

Yeah, as well as at least more than 20 miles long run a week.

SPEAKER_03 40:43

Right.

SPEAKER_05 40:43

That was for about six months before.

SPEAKER_03 40:47

Yeah. And this was what, it was it 2021 you took it on?

SPEAKER_05 40:51

It's actually two years ago this weekend.

SPEAKER_03 40:54

Oh, is that oh okay. Yeah, yeah. And uh so tell me more about that. So you went into it quite confident then.

SPEAKER_05 41:03

Oh yeah, yeah, very confident. I thought I trained really simple well, really sensibly, knew what to eat. Oh, during my training, I'd been eating well, drinking well, never been ill, avoided injuries. So yeah, I went in thinking okay.

SPEAKER_03 41:26

Yeah. And and then nutrition-wise, were you taking on solid foods? It wasn't all gels and sweet stuff.

SPEAKER_05 41:33

So beforehand, mum mate sandwiches, um, hula hoops, yeah, water, I never drank the gels, yeah, or the isotonic drinks, whatever.

SPEAKER_06 41:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:47

Um and when I was doing my long day, so 40 miles or 50 miles, I had to go back home, have a cup of soup and toast, something like that.

SPEAKER_03 41:59

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:00

Or some pasta.

SPEAKER_03 42:02

What in the middle of the run?

SPEAKER_05 42:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:04

Oh okay, so.

SPEAKER_05 42:05

So I did like 12 miles.

SPEAKER_03 42:06

Yes, it was like uh aid station store. Yeah, yeah. Brilliant. So get the ferry to the Isle of Wight, I presume. You didn't swim it.

SPEAKER_05 42:17

No, all very exciting.

SPEAKER_03 42:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:20

Yeah, luckily my family were there.

SPEAKER_03 42:22

Great.

SPEAKER_05 42:22

They proved God sends afterwards.

SPEAKER_03 42:25

And were you running on your own?

SPEAKER_05 42:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:27

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_05 42:29

And I actually like that.

SPEAKER_03 42:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:32

I do a lot of running on my own, just like being out and about.

SPEAKER_03 42:37

Yeah, that's that's really nice. That's I was talking to Lynn about that yesterday, about the solitude of running is actually quite nice.

SPEAKER_05 42:45

Really good thinking time.

SPEAKER_03 42:47

Yeah. So tell me about the race, how did it go?

SPEAKER_05 42:51

Well, first bit, yeah, absolutely loved it. Yeah, thought it was so lovely, scenery was beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 42:59

So the course is quite undulating, I imagine, is it?

SPEAKER_05 43:02

Yeah, very hilly. Yeah, and I think that's where the problems came, or some of the problems.

SPEAKER_06 43:07

Right.

SPEAKER_05 43:08

But there just aren't the hills round here. Although I did a lot of my training up on Caesar's camp, yes. Up and down their hills.

SPEAKER_03 43:16

Yeah. So you said uh early on things were fine. How far in was that?

SPEAKER_05 43:23

Well, I got to halfway.

unknown 43:25

Right.

SPEAKER_05 43:25

I thought I was fine.

SPEAKER_03 43:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:27

Um retrospect my family say I looked ill at halfway. Oh really. I didn't think I did.

SPEAKER_06 43:33

Right.

SPEAKER_05 43:34

Um then I got to three quarters. And by then my daughter had made the decision if I was coming when she was coming with me. Oh really. She did, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 43:46

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 43:47

Um were you allowed a pacer then in the event? Or did she just want to do that out of safety?

SPEAKER_05 43:54

I think yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:55

Right.

SPEAKER_05 43:56

I think she'd looked at me and thought I didn't look well.

SPEAKER_03 43:58

Right.

SPEAKER_05 44:00

bought myself and shoes and came with me.

SPEAKER_06 44:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:04

And then I suppose 90, 87 no 89 kilometers it was, just before the last aid station. I just could not walk so um uh yeah got up a particularly big hill was sick and passed out oh right all in one yeah it it it came on suddenly to you right so uh I mean I hadn't been feeling great yeah but I didn't expect to feel great no I expected it to be hard work okay so yeah and and was that it then yeah so she called an ambulance knocked on someone's door oh wow and uh they came out with blankets and pillows and uh someone uh the paramedics from the aid station because it was only very close came down yeah picked me up and took me back and really thought I was alright to go back to the hotel room they were very thorough they were very good um and then overnight I kept being sick and in the morning my family called another ambulance and I went into I think it's St Mary's on the Isle of Wight right with what's called rhabdomyolysis and so it's where you get muscle breakdown myoglobin is released from the muscle and it can go into your kidneys and clog your kidneys and that combined with dehydration gave me renal failure. Oh no but I've I come from a background of an intensive care nurse so and I had no idea that I was that poorly through the event or even when I went into hospital until I saw the results. Yeah so it shows how easy it is to become quite poorly without even realising. Yeah because you expect it to be hard.

SPEAKER_03 46:10

And you don't you didn't go into it with any um feeling of illness beforehand no perfectly fit. I've always been very fitted very well luckily yeah um so what do you think what was the the diagnosis of the problem then or what caused the issue and especially renal failure in the end but um I think my problem was I went into it the first quarter to half the scenery was so lovely and I was loving it looking around yeah probably going too fast for me.

SPEAKER_06 46:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 46:45

The food wasn't what I was used to eating so I ate I was eating right up until the first half I had plenty of water with me but obviously not enough it turns out um and then towards the end just didn't feel like eating or drinking I'd even got ginger tip from you so I'd I'd gone into it quite seriously and listened to all the advice like had a little bag with ginger because that's what you said would be good for the pause yeah just wasn't my day no so is it do you think so it's a combination of things was it was it dehydration involved yeah dehydration and muscle breakdown. Yeah so what triggers the muscle breakdown then um just extreme uh activity right or you see it in um this is coming from a nursing background yeah so crush injuries oh right um bomb blasts things like that right where you get severe muscle damage yeah so that's a that's a pretty traumatic equation led into ultra running yes I think my message to anyone would be if you start to feel sore or unwell stop yeah because I expected to feel quite sore I expected to feel unwell yeah just because it's such a yeah a big thing and I've never done it before.

SPEAKER_03 48:19

Yeah well that's that's quite a story so um post that then how long did it take you to recover?

SPEAKER_05 48:29

Um I was on crutches for a good couple of weeks because of the muscle breakdown I couldn't walk um my renal function took I suppose about six months to recover. Oh my word yeah um I went back to Blaze because I go to Hannah Hall's Blaze um and they were really good really strict with me about what I could and couldn't do um and just got back to running.

SPEAKER_03 48:59

Yeah so he eased your way back in very slowly I did the uh um uh couch to 5k programme oh okay so really yeah really easy coming back and so that's the physical side how how what how are you mentally over that um I do feel very guilty guilty uh put a lot of pressure on the NHS oh I see yeah put huge pressure on my family um because of course being in the Isle of Wight trying to get me home afterwards was really difficult real stress for my daughter seeing me collapse yeah yeah that that's a side of it we don't consider so much isn't it is when you have an experience like that what your family are going through as well they're still quite angry I think oh really well they were that worried for you and just worried that I'll do it again right um and I know I would love to right I feel it's like unfinished business yeah I don't like failing at things but I think it will be daft to risk my health again yeah and and also there is the the the pressure of not wanting to do it for your family's sake as well as exactly yeah yeah it's that's a tough one that is yeah and um I mean Lizzie she was fantastic sort of coach and mentor all the way through building up yeah and I can remember her saying if you've started off with the big distance most people would start off with the smaller one yeah but I'd I'd heard about the Isle of White Ultra through work I didn't really know about ultra running so I'd made up my mind which one I was doing before sort of coming across any others. Right. Yeah so it does sound like uh getting into it that dived in it 30 miler first or 50k or something and then exactly maybe not such a a hilly route yeah and um doing it with somebody with more experience that can make sure you're pacing yourself properly and eating and drinking properly even when you don't feel like it. Yeah. So that was quite a big element that's why I asked you at the start where you were on your own.

SPEAKER_05 51:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:33

So you you felt you didn't have anybody else that would notice other than when your daughter noticed the condition you were in. Yeah yeah it's it's uh it's really tough and I think a bit of a lesson for when we're out there we all have a duty of care to each other and looking after each other so and I know it happens more in mountain ultras you know if anybody falls over anything everybody stops. Yes which is lovely yeah so yeah maybe it's something that people ought to keep an eye out as well for I've no doubt people have found people on the trail wandering about completely disorientated because of the effort but yeah I think you're very focused on your own because it is hard work and concentrating on what you're doing and your own effort yeah that it's easy not to notice people around you. Right. So what what sort of distance are you happy with now?

SPEAKER_05 52:29

Um so yeah so I'm doing a 10k a month right um I'm up to 20 months of those now and that's just to keep me ticking over really yeah um and I run sort of 11 to 13 miles on my long run on the weekend and you're doing those on your own are you? Yeah I get well I go to the club so sometimes I go on a Thursday yeah um and I like to go on a Tuesday really like those training sessions because I wouldn't put in much effort on my own.

SPEAKER_03 53:06

Yeah but my weekend longs yeah I tend to go out the back of Crondall either on the really quiet roads or yeah yeah heading out or cross country yeah it's so nice and quiet yeah so do you think I mean it sounds like ultra's not going to be something you're gonna do you would you ever consider it like a shorter one?

SPEAKER_05 53:31

Um well I had put in for the London marathon. Oh right just on a moment of madness and didn't get in.

SPEAKER_03 53:40

Yeah um I'd like to do something uh longer again yes and uh an ultra would be nice because it's my scalar yeah uh but I'm not sure that if I mentioned the word to my family yeah they would yeah well maybe you don't have to tell them that it's an ultra I think they know the distances they're a bit too wise for that now yeah oh yeah that's I'm getting older so yeah but we all are yeah uh yeah that's hella I mean I I have to say I have had experience not as bad as renal failure but I've been in the back of an ambulance twice and a paramedic vehicle once um pre ultra days one was after um Iron Man triathlon distance okay yeah uh in Weymouth and a couple of others were after long training runs so well after a training run yeah you really push yourself um well it could be that but I've got some thing some vasovagal nerve oh yeah vasovagal vasovagal yeah yeah um and it slows my heart rate right down yes and I ended up in Frimley yeah actually getting wheeled into the crash unit scary for you yeah it dropped to 23 and I set the alarms off yeah but I it was a weird experience because I was actually wide awake yeah and not feeling too bad so I was really worried that they were gonna do something stick something on me when I was perfectly alright and it went away really quickly so yeah so the thing is we are in some ways I don't want to scare people but until you do these things you you're a bit of a ticking time bomb aren't you if you don't know what's happening inside you a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_05 55:37

And your family let you do it you carry on.

SPEAKER_03 55:42

Well they're always always well they just know what I'm like I mean um my wife obviously she's been through quite a bit of traumas uh with that sort of episode um but I don't know I I I really not sure what they think the whole thing I'm sure they rather I didn't do the great big long stuff over the mountains.

SPEAKER_05 56:09

Yeah because that's very dangerous.

SPEAKER_03 56:11

It is yeah it has given me as well a worry for other people starting out yes yeah well that that's really what this podcast's about is it you know there's a lot of stuff I've done before which is all about you know ridiculous distances in the mountains and stuff and uh this is supposed to be for mid to backpack runners which of course you can still be backpacked yeah even if you're running 200 miles you can be backpacked but yeah it was a realisation that people starting out want to move up from marathon that you need to get a perspective on it really and I wanted both sides of the story which is why your story is so disappointing for you. Yeah it's it's a story that needs to be told really yes I was I felt very well prepared yeah distance wise nutrition wise everything yeah it sounded like you did everything yeah I was very sensitive to it yeah yeah it's just um it was unfortunate on the day well it could yeah like you say it could have been the distance done uh and travelling too quickly I guess yeah and uh yeah one thing led to another so good so good what do you think would happen if your daughter wasn't with you well luckily people were coming up behind yeah so uh I'd have been found yes and I'd come too by the time the ambulance car came down yeah uh so really a lot of the emergency stuff came on after you were well off the course oh yeah yeah and I didn't think I needed to go to hospital that evening and neither did the paramedics yeah they were very good yes oh I know it my experience was that they well once you're in the system they never let you go unless they're convinced which is why I've ended up in hospital three times I think but uh yeah well hopefully Caroline you will at some point come back and do an ultra at some I would really like to I know I'll tell you another way is you know the thing that Simon Rimmer does sometimes the or every year the coast you go they run down the coast over a couple of days yeah that's quite a nice way of yes I see you doing the distance casually with a group and building up to it because that's only about I don't know 28 or 30 miles over a couple of days though yeah there's always opportunities yeah to do these things safely I'm quite a slow runner yeah and um you find the slow people don't want to use the distance so I hold people up. Yeah that is a difficult one isn't it that um you really yeah you really I don't know it's funny in races though because of the time cut-offs they give you they're very they're quite generous and a lot of slower runners do get round them yeah but uh yeah there's the expectation did you find the cutoffs were any pressure at all? No there weren't any cutoffs oh right oh so it was probably the perfect race in that sense it's very laid back yeah very well organised yeah all right well cut off at 48 hours yeah I knew I wasn't gonna take that long okay well thank you very much for taking the time out to do this with me and to share it with everybody because you know everybody likes to share their glories but it's always nice when somebody is brave enough to share their experience and hope it saves others.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:17

Yeah I do hope it saves others.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:19

Thanks a lot you're welcome so that was a bit of an eye-opener wasn't it um I'm not trying to put people off from running ultras but and Caroline's experience uh was probably quite exceptional but uh there's no doubt that when you run these events that uh you see fairly distressed people at different times in different stages of uh dehydration or lack of nutrition um or just exhaustion from the sheer physical effort so there's no getting away from it uh running an ultramarathon distance uh is not always easy it might sound like a lovely thing to do in an enjoyable environment but it is not always the case but of course I want to encourage people to uh run ultras and that's you know what this podcast is all about really I really want to thank Lynn and Caroline for spending the time to share with me and most importantly with you their experiences and I hope it does not put you off or encourages you in uh to keep on wanting to do ultras or to get involved in an ultra. So taking your first steps into an ultra I want you to be happily uncomfortable experiencing achieving something you thought that was unattainable or beyond you. Guess what it's all about preparation both physically and mentally so here's a an 11 point list that I would have taken as notes out of that podcast from both what Caroline and Lynn had said. Number one seek sound experience advice number two run with an experienced others number three increase time on feet gradually while keeping pace slow number four walk up hills number five have a run walk strategy number six learn to digest simple solid carbohydrates white bread crisps maltloaf pretzels I mean what's not to like number seven look after your feet number eight introduce strength and conditioning work if you don't already do it number nine pick an event suited to your level of fitness endurance ability that you feel you could take on number ten then train for that distance and that terrain you don't that doesn't mean you have to run the actual distance but gradually building your distance up but certainly try to run on the terrain so in other words if it's in the hills make sure you run in the hills if it's on toe path run on the toe path and number eleven enjoy the freedom and self-discovery of running an ultra distance so that is the summary of an episode that I hope encourages more people to have a go at ultras and to have a go at them cautiously so until the next age station it's Kev saying bye for now.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:28

Step four we could have really gone around this step two four step three about what you want to be step four.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:38

Everybody just does it we got it's gonna be weird to the next bloody each station