Ep 34 - In conversation with Sophie Bennett - Dragon Slayer and WD200 podium placer

In this episode Kev, at last, catches up with Sophie Bennett who finished second female at the inaugural Centurion Winter Downs 200.  Among many other ultra races Sophie also completed the Dragon’s Back Race in 2022.  This is a conversation that has been a long time coming but it’s full of good topical ultra racing stuff!

https://www.centurionrunning.com/races/winter-downs-200-2024 

https://www.dragonsbackrace.com/

Aid Station website where you can find the episodes or leave comment https://www.aidstation.co.uk/

Please feel free to give the show some feedback on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/aid-station/id1549735359

Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:32

Hello and welcome to the 34th episode of 8 Station. This is your host, Kevin, welcoming you all to a new show which I'm happy to have put together at last because it features Sophie Bennett, who I've been trying to get on here for ages. Sophie's been a follower of A-Station since 2021 when we were doing the Dragon's Back race, and I think she used to listen in there when I did my record. And we have since been on that race together a couple of times, and uh it's taken us this long to get it together at last. I've already tried to uh record her twice before, particularly after the uh Winter Downs 200 that we completed uh six weeks ago, and I caught up with her today, which I'm very pleased about. This is a great interview with Sophie, it gives you great background on her and her race at the Winter Downs 200, and also how she has progressed over the years through ultra running. So, without further ado, here's Sophie. Still there?

SPEAKER_02 1:46

I'm still here.

SPEAKER_06 1:47

Great.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

At last is only about the third attempt.

SPEAKER_06 1:54

I'm very well, how are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:56

I'm good, thank you. I sound like I'm sick, but I'm actually fine. I've just got a bit of a croaky voice.

SPEAKER_06 2:02

Yeah, you do sound like you've got a croaky voice. Are you all right?

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Yeah, I'm good, I'm really good. I've started back running this week, so I'm actually happy again.

SPEAKER_06 2:11

Right, and that's the first time, what is it now? About is it six weeks? Six weeks. Yeah, you actually you would have finished six weeks today, did you?

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Is it right?

SPEAKER_06 2:22

Uh Friday you finished.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Yes, Wednesday today, isn't it?

SPEAKER_06 2:26

Yeah, you finished obviously.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Yeah, six weeks this week. Yeah, so I um I pulled my hamstring on that last night, and um, yeah, it's it I guess sort of a grade one ham is usually four to six weeks, and it literally has taken that long. So this is the first week I've been pain free and felt like I could run. I was definitely over cautious because I knew I needed to recover. Um, like if there'd been something coming up, I probably would have tried to push it a bit more, but yeah, I've been slightly over cautious, but it's been it's it's felt like it's been a long wait. Which seems ridiculous because I'm like, I'm really grateful for all the running I did non-injured it last year, but please can you just let me run again?

SPEAKER_06 3:04

Oh no, it's so yeah, you you forget that yeah, how much you've got to do, and then as soon as you get an injury, it's like, oh no, I can't stand this. How much longer is it gonna be?

SPEAKER_04 3:15

I know.

SPEAKER_06 3:16

That's amazing. Anyway, just to explain, we are talking about um the Winter Downs 200 finish, which we I did actually record uh uh uh interview with Sophie uh almost immediately after, wasn't it? Or two or three days or something, uh, which all went horribly wrong as usual with me. Um so at last I've got hold of Sophie and she came second female, which is amazing, 14th overall in 69 hours, 22 minutes, 37 seconds. Uh so inside 70 hours, which was amazing. Uh really, really I I don't know how you did it to be honest, but I'd like to get into that.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Um it's funny because I was really disappointed initially because in my head I wanted to be done by midnight on Friday, which was always a bit of a stretch goal, but as time went on, I was like, I wanted to be done by that sort of under 65 hours. So I was really disappointed. But then when I saw how long that last section basically took everyone, I think it became a bit more realistic that actually that was probably not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_06 4:26

Yeah, yeah. I I mean I don't know how you felt about well, I've made my views known on the uh Vanguard Way section, but I think it took so much out of people early on that it did make the back end even harder than it would be anyway, once you're into the second hundred.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

But yeah, I I think I remember being um um at Putnam and thinking, I I can't remember exactly, like it feels like such a lifetime ago, but I remember around that time looking and there being something like 30k left or something, and thinking, oh, I I'm gonna be done by like midnight. This is amazing. I changed my trainers and I put my like um speed coats on, I'd taken off the cyclones, and I was like, right, let's go, I'm ready to go, I'm gonna be done in a couple of hours. And I think I just lost the plot a little bit as well. So I a few of the girls on my girls' group had like been texting and I started replying to them. And I think I was just, yeah, I just underestimated how I was actually feeling at that point. And um, and another one of the girls on one of our groups, Nat had texted me, and um, I said, Oh, um, I said, I think I'm gonna be done by midnight. And I think she might have texted James saying so she should be done by midnight. I think he's like, She's not gonna be done by midnight. And um, Sarah, my coach, said as well, she said, I'm gonna go to bed now and have a couple of hours. This section could take you anything three to five hours. And I was like, No, I'm gonna be done by midnight.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

I think it literally did take, I think it took me like seven hours in the end. I was like, after I was like, Why are you always right? Yeah, but I like my optimism at that point, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 5:57

And I think it's great that you're in that uh mental state or frame of mind to to uh yeah, have that as a target, pretty tough because yeah, I mean, I was like nowhere. I mean, I didn't even have much of a target really, so just happy to get around. But yeah, to be that focused to go for it is that's really good.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

I think that probably helps a little bit because I think maybe if I wasn't as focused or as keen to finish, and I was like at that point, um, I'm not really ever competitive in a race, but obviously I knew Ali was quite close behind, or I perceived her to be quite close behind. So um at that point I was like, actually, I really want to hold on to a second. This sounds really nice. So I think that also spurred me on, and I think like probably if I hadn't have had that, then yeah, I think it would have been easy to, you know, like towards the back end of that kind of race, just go, Oh, I just need to finish and actually slow down a bit. And I actually, I mean, I did slow down anyway, but but like I was still kind of conscious that I needed to keep going. Yeah, um, and I pulled my that's when I pulled my hamstring on that last north down section as well. So that was kind of frustrating because every time I ran it felt like it was pulling me back. So um, yeah, I was just I was just ready to be done. I just wanted to get it done. But um, I think I was yeah, a lot worse than I kind of perceived that I was.

SPEAKER_06 7:15

Yeah. And I hardly saw you at the start because you tore off as you would expect to, but um you did you you know, did you set out at that pace and you're just able to maintain it? You seem to go.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

I didn't I know it's really strange because I remember at the start I was saying to Steve, I was like, Where's Kev? Because I was like desperate to start with you. And I was like, Where's Kev? He goes, Well, I haven't seen him, I haven't seen him. And um, I yeah, I just had no idea. I just I didn't even think about what I was doing, I guess. The start it was just kind of, you know, kind of around like Allie and Spencer and a couple of the others, and just sort of went off and just just kind of was really conscious of that first hill, like, you know, walk it. Remember it's gonna be a long old day or a few days. Um, and I just didn't really, I wasn't consciously thinking of kind of the pace that I was running at. And um, I think I just sort of spotted in with those guys and then just started running and actually ended up running, I think, the first kind of 30 miles with Allie. Um, and my perception of her is that she's a much well, she is a much quicker runner than me. So I kind of always knew I was, I always thought I was on borrowed time with her almost like I was running with her, but I was like, you know, any minute now she's just gonna go. So I'll just hang out for a bit and it was just so nice. We just chatted and we just had a lovely time. And I think that um that just you kind of forgot what you were doing almost because we were just chatting away, and um another guy with the guy Stuart, like we're chatting to him, and yeah, it just seemed to the time seemed to fly by, and I didn't really realise the kind of uh sort of pace or what I was running, it was just sound a lovely day. I was like Wednesday and I'm not in work.

SPEAKER_06 8:42

This is a and did you did you have a schedule? Like, did um I mean Steve Bennett was crewing for you the whole race wasn't here.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Yeah, he was a legend. Steve and my sister, yeah, they were amazing.

SPEAKER_06 8:57

Yeah, brilliant. So that that you must have had some sort of schedule that they were working to, expecting to see.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Yeah, yeah, roughly. And Steve's the king of schedules, as we know, like from our second dragon's back, because obviously we were so um stressed about time that second time we did it. So he was amazing. He looked at the timings, um, him and Sarah actually, and kind of worked it out with that kind of 65-hour goal in mind, you know, what I needed to stick to. Um, and I can't remember now, it may be three or four miles an hour, something like that. So he was he was kind of always on that, and actually he did me the most incredible little like printouts, which basically said, you know, what time I need to be at the next checkpoint by what I needed to be running, and like all the information. And he just sort of every time he saw me, he'd rip off the next one and give it to me. Um, and you know, as the race went on, that kind of went out of the window. But I think, yeah, like for the for the good bulk of the first part of the race, we we definitely were sticking to that. Um, and it was conscious, but he definitely wasn't thinking about anyone else, it was just kind of in my head, like actually, like I really want to get in and around that time. So just try to stick to that that sort of timings. But it, you know, it was it was quite generous to start with, and I guess the drop-off is so big afterwards. Um, but but to start with, yeah, it was quite easy to stick to. Um, and I didn't really feel I was really conscious about stopping, um, because um I think on some of the other races I've done, I've stopped too long. And um, when I did Wendover, I feel like I definitely was stopping too much and too long. So when I went into UTMR, um I'd watched Jane go do um CCC and she's unbelievable, she just doesn't stop. And I kind of sort of channeled my inner Jane on my UTMR and thought, right, you know, like this is I need to get better at this, and I did the same then. And so I think I just kind of was like, I need to stick to this, but I don't need to stop and faff, I just need to get in, get out, and then yeah, I think I did I was quite good. So I might have been like slower, but I think with in terms of stopping, like I was pretty efficient. And obviously, Steve and my sister, when they saw me, they were incredible, they were just like, Here's what you need, off you go. Yeah, although Steve did make me sleep a few times, or make try and make me sleep a little bit.

SPEAKER_06 11:04

I was gonna say, yeah, that was the next question, really, is how much sleep did you get? And where did you take those stops? Was that with the crew, or did you use the race's um facilities?

SPEAKER_01 11:15

So um, I was really lucky that Steve had his van and he had a bed in the back, and um he had this big plastic bag. So if ever I needed to sleep when I was with him, we didn't take my trainers off. We just literally put my legs in the bag and then I lay on the bed. Oh, um, I yeah, it was really good. It's a good idea, yeah. I mean, it was fine at the main checkpoints, but it was good not to have to do it there. So I think um I think James said about the stopping times were uh my overall stopping time was about 3.21, something like that. In my head, I think I slept about an hour and 20. Um, I slept a couple of short naps in the van. I took maybe half an hour or so at um Truly Hill. So that was obviously um the second morning, I think I was there. And um yeah, I stopped there, I had some food, and then I actually had a sleep and because I just knew I'd be better off in and I'd stayed at Truly Hill on a recce as well, so I kind of knew what was there, and I and even though quite a lot of the people that were at the front didn't bother stopping there, they saw crew or did that, I just thought I know I can get a good meal here, I can get into a bed and uh stopped there for yeah, maybe 40 minutes, 45 minutes, had to sleep, got myself sorted, and then left there. Um I know on the South Downs, I definitely I can't remember the checkpoint, like everything's just gone. I just looked through all my pictures to try and remind me of things. Um, but I know like on the South Downs at one point, um, I was running with uh a guy called Seb at that point, and we both stopped um in the van because we were both just kind of wandering around and had a nap in the back of the van. Um and then at checkpoint three at the sustainability centre. Again, I got into there and um I kind of walked in and saw Drew and I was in quite an I was in quite a state by that point, didn't really realise. And um I was like, oh, just half an hour. Drew was like maybe a little bit longer. So he was so good with me, he just treated me like a child basically. Like I ate and then sort of went to bed. And he I remember at one point he popped in, he said, maybe just half an hour more. And again, he said, you know, other people around you are sleeping, like you don't need to worry. And um, at that point, again, I was with Seb and he sort of said, I'm gonna have a good sleep here. And I was like, I just want to keep going. Um, but I think I ended up having an hour or so there, and then um got up and Seb was sort of ready, like was coming out as well, but I was ready to go, so I said to him, then I was like, right, I'm gonna go, you know, you can catch me up, and yeah, that sleep definitely helped me. I think that was I think I probably had within an hour there.

SPEAKER_06 13:46

Did you have do you think you've got an optimal time now that works for you out of that? Did you sleep? Yeah, like the time is there like 20 minutes that you think that's all I really need, or is an hour do it, or um I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

It's funny because um yeah, like I'm not I'm actually not sure. Like, because both worked for me. Like when I slept, then I always felt better after after. Um I was trying to think about like after the sustainability center. Like I think I think um probably in and around um Zembies was so after the sustainability towards the end. Um I met look maybe like the last crew point um where I met uh Steve and my sister were there, and I was in quite a bad place at that point. I was being sick. I was sitting down, I was hallucinating like crazy. And Steve was like, You need to sleep now. And I was like, absolutely not, I'm so close to the end. My sister was kind of like, okay, just sit down for a minute. They're like, Yeah, I was sick, and I just kind of got myself together and they gave they sort of force-fed me something. Probably, you know, in reality, I was like right on the edge with the sleep thing then. I probably was quite lucky to get away with what I'd done. Um, but I just knew I was so close to the end, but I just that last section just seemed to take so long, like it just felt like it just never came to an end. Um, like it just it really didn't feel like it ever ended. So yeah, I think probably I was on the cusp of what I could push myself to, I'd imagine. Um, and I think if it had been any longer, I wouldn't need to sleep on.

SPEAKER_06 15:20

I don't know, um other than Dragon's Back, your racing back ran in terms of non-stop running, but had you been over a hundred before?

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Um no, not non-stop, no. So I didn't had no idea. Like obviously I'd done Wendover, which I think was about 31 hours. So I kind of knew I could do that kind of that kind of distance because I felt fine at Wendover. Actually, it was really strange, like I didn't I didn't ever really feel like I needed sleep. And then obviously I'd done a couple of those um accrued a couple of times in October to see like how I could push myself without sleep. That was kind of part of the reason I'd done those because I thought, oh, it'd be interesting to see without running actually how far can you push yourself? But no, I no, I hadn't been over that and I haven't done anything non-stop that far. So obviously, um, yeah, only kind of that stage race ways.

SPEAKER_06 16:08

But you seem to have taken to it within the result.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

Maybe it was just lucky, I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 16:15

Um, yeah would you is would you do another one?

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Oh my goodness, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_06 16:20

Oh, brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

I I love this distance. Um, yeah, I think it's I think it's great. It's such an adventure. Um, and it's it's pretty cool. Like I think that when I first started, I was really nervous because of um like even with 100 milers, I don't really like being out in the dark, which sounds ridiculous, but it's just like I don't I don't know why. Um and I feel like in the mountains it I feel safer. I don't again, I I don't know why, but in the mountains I kind of feel this like you know, I know there's like animals and things, but I just feel safer kind of running around like the the North Sounds whale wherever I was I was like petrified, but um now like now I sort of that's why I did a wendover originally because I thought I just need to get out in the dark and just check that I can do this, yeah. And um yeah, no, I absolutely loved it, and you know, that night up on the South Downs Way was just like a really special evening, I suppose. And it was really cool.

SPEAKER_06 17:13

Yeah. So would you do this one again?

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Or no, I don't think so. Um, like it's really hard because again, it was a bit like with Wendover, it's like, would you do it again? But there's always a bit of you that thinks, oh well, now I know it, I could go quicker, or I could like I know so much more now. Actually, I would have done this differently. Um and there's always that little temptation, but then I just had such an amazing time. I don't think I'd want to go back and risk ruining like the memories of that race. Yeah. Um and also there's so many other cool races to do. I'm definitely like want to go back and volunteer next year. Like I really want to be part of it. Yeah, I think it's yeah, or like if someone, you know, if Steve De Cloudy wants to do it, then I definitely would go and crew for him. So definitely be part of it. But yeah, I don't think I'd run it again. I think there's other things now I'd love to go into. What about you? Would you would you do it again?

SPEAKER_06 18:03

Uh well, I'm the same as you, really. There's there's so many other things that I want to do. Um and we've just witnessed the spine dot watching and the arcs coming up this weekend, and I've never nailed the hundred. So um yeah, there's too many other things, I think. But I think the other thing about going back and saying, Well, I've I've done it, so I know it, so I should go quicker. The problem is with these events, and we saw it with a spine, is that if you get like if they get frozen ground on that course, it's gonna be really quick. Or you know, if it gets if you have three days wet and windy, it'll be horrible. So you might end up slower. So yeah, you know, I I think you did an amazing time around there, and probably you should um take that as a result.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Yeah, just say that you were gonna save yourself. Yeah, no, I I I do agree with you. I think, yeah, I think it was like with Dragon's Back, I was always like, it's one and done, I'm not going back. And then obviously after what happened, uh that was for me, I was like, I have to go back, but I never really wanted to go back. But obviously that all worked out. So I think, yeah, if if a race, like if I didn't finish it or DNF'd it, then yeah, probably we'd go back. But I think, yeah, I'm just grateful that I managed to get around and everything went really well. That yeah, probably would just like leave that leave that to rest now and move on, try something different.

SPEAKER_06 19:25

Let's do that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

Yeah, let's make a plan.

SPEAKER_06 19:29

I will be talking about it again very soon because I'm going up to interview James on the 31st of January, which I'm really looking forward to. But I I intend to talk to him more about um race direction and running a business than uh actually the event. So we'll part the Winter Downs 200, which is a brilliant event, and anybody wanting to step up to 200, go for it. It's a really, really good race.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

And I think that's the reason I initially wanted to do it because when I signed up for Winter Downs, I hadn't run 100 miles at that point. I'd obviously done Dragon's Back and I'd done a lot of other events, but I hadn't done the 100 miler. Um, but I've always had like as much as I would always say I don't want to do the spine, I was like, well, I kind of needed to just see like what it what it's like to run in winter, just in case ever I decided I wanted to run the spine. So that's the reason that I signed up to it. Um, but yeah, it was an incredible event. And I just think, well, Centurion events always are, aren't they? And yeah, they do it pretty well.

SPEAKER_06 20:29

Yeah, brilliant. So what I'd like to do now is go back because uh you know, I always pitch this podcast as mid-to-back runners, and now you've come second at a race you shouldn't be on. I think it's because of nowhere. But the purpose of that is that um I first got to know of you, I won't say I knew you uh at Dragon Back 2021. Um and you were, I would say, very much mid-to-backpack runner in those days. Um and it's great that you I'd like to know this progression that you've gone through that unless you're just some amazing 200-mile runner and beyond, um what you've done yourself to go from where you were in 2021. I'm not saying that it was bad because you only just timed out, weren't you, on day five?

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Um, it was day two, and it was 12 minutes.

SPEAKER_06 21:24

Oh, day two, I always get that wrong. I always think it's day five that because we were on the cusp day five in 2022.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Oh, yeah, it was 12 minutes on day two, and then we we carried on and did the rest of the week, apart from obviously we weren't allowed to do the Wednesday morning. Yeah, and then yeah, day five was close, but basically um they put that diversion in, if you remember. Yeah, so they credited everyone with two minutes, and I think we got in at like maybe 10 oh one, so we were fine. I was just like, don't not let me run the last day. No, we weren't gonna complete it. Yeah, that was a tough recus that we're

SPEAKER_06 22:00

Wait for the dragon.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

An expensive recce that one.

SPEAKER_06 22:04

So, where where what have you done? Do you think that's or do you not feel like you've made that sort of improvement?

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Um, I don't know, it's really strange. I guess like my running journey's been a bit of a random one because you know, like a lot of people talk about their running, they're like, I didn't do sports school, I didn't do this, I've always been sporty, the team sports. Um, and then I started in 2006, 2007 running. I did a couple of marathons. And again, like the first year I did a marathon, I think was 2006 or 2007, did London, and I hadn't been running. Um and my friends were doing cardiff half, and I sort of was like, okay, they were like, come and run with us. And I was a bit overweight, I'd come out of uni, um and I was playing rugby, and I was like, okay, I'll do it. Trotted round 209. I was like, and I was like, right, I want to do London marathon. It's like on my bucket list, it's now whenever. So managed to get um a charity place because I was working for WIU and um again just trucked round, wrote myself a plan off the internet, trucked round, did it in four hours 40, finished it, said to my sister, like, that was unbelievable. I need to do, I need to do it again. And then within that year, I started running a bit more seriously, joined a club in Cardiff. And then the year after I ran 327. So I think like I've obviously got some sort of kind of endurance in there, but it's just focusing it. Um, and then stood a few marathons and stuff, then um went to CrossFit for a few years, stopped running, and then in 2017, ran um cotterway 100k, and again it was just on a whim, like I struggled with loads of injuries, just kind of drunk one day, signed up to it, and went, I want to do ultras because I'd always wanted to do ultras after reading Dean Carnese's book in about 2007.

SPEAKER_06 23:42

I was like, Oh, I wonder what the trigger was.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Yeah, you can eat pizza run. This sounds perfect.

SPEAKER_05 23:48

Yeah, brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Um, and then it was while until I did it, and then 2017 just again like bit the bullet and did it. And I think I finished that in about 14 hours, and again, like just um didn't really have a coach, just had a pair of ASICs, just chucked them on and did it. And so, and then that's kind of where my love for this like longer distance started. And then obviously with Dragons Back again, just sort of fell into it by accident. When I came out to France, so I moved two and a half years ago now to France, and basically that was after the first Dragon's Back, and um got connected with Sarah Cameron, who is just the most incredible coach, and she obviously worked with Centurion as well, but basically connected um kind of locally because she lived just outside Toulouse, and um yeah, I mean she's been coaching me, so she's really the only difference, I suppose, um actually between that kind of times back in this time. But I think when I was um doing my other job, so when I was in the UK, I worked like for Bath Rugby as team manager there, and my job was 24-7. I hardly did any races um because I didn't have weekends, you didn't know when the you know the fixtures only ever got confirmed like four to six weeks in advance. So to actually do races was really tricky. So I did a lot of running and I did the odd event, but um not that much, and then since coming to France and kind of living my new life where I'm still working, but it's a lot a lot more like where are you based in France? So in Toulouse, right?

SPEAKER_06 25:16

So did you go into the Pyrenees?

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Yes, running, so yeah, we get to go. Um so Toulouse is really flat and concrete itself, it's kind of one hilly area that you have to drive to. So you know, I do miss like being in bar for that, or you can just run out of your door and kind of hit hills, but obviously, yeah, we're really lucky we can get to the Pyrenees kind of within a sort of hour, an hour and ten. And quite often, you know, with Sarah, we'll go for the day. Like we went last week to just outside Foi to Tarascon, and you know, we just spent a sort of day hiking and running around kind of mountains and snow, and so yeah, I mean, so so I guess this life lets me um race more, and it out here in France there's a lot more smaller like trail races where you can sort of rock up and pay 10 euros, do a race and then get a free beer afterwards. Um so I guess that's the the only real major change is yeah, kind of Sarah. I think she she also um before I was doing a lot of volume. I'm a bit of a junkie when it comes to a bit of an over-trainer. She's like obviously dialed me right back. I do loads of because I'm not just a runner, I'm like I love CrossFit, I love strength training, I love doing any kind of training, I love playing netball, I just want to be doing sport all the time. So um, I guess in my running, she's kind of just honed that a little bit more. Um, and then in terms of I guess my strength and my crossfit and stuff, I still do that, but we just kind of make it work. So, and also I think she's given me a bit more confidence, probably. Just like go out and yeah, yeah, but no, I uh maybe it's just maybe it's just the life I'm living. That's what my partner always says. He said, because I'll say, Oh, I have to leave my job because of you. And he'll be like, Well, you wouldn't be running 200 miles in December if if you were still working at Bath Rugby.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

So he tries to take the credit for it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 26:59

On the on the rugby thing, because you dropped it in there really quickly early on. What what position did you play when you oh yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

Um I played um fly half or twelve in inside centre mostly. Did you? I haven't played for a long time, yeah. But when it in those early days I used to, when I was trying to run marathons, I'd go and run 20 miles in the morning for my training run and then go and play rugby in the afternoon. But I was supposed to be in charge of women's rugby at the point in Wales, and I was like, I'm not setting a very good example here, so yeah, in the end the rugby had to stop.

SPEAKER_06 27:30

Yeah. Oh, that's brilliant though. I can't be many women that have come into Ultra from rugby, I shouldn't think, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Yeah, no, yeah, I'm not sure. I think it's I uh it does feel like that sort of transition out of rugby, you know. Like, because I do a lot of work now. Um I work for an agent and I do some work in transition, and I think like a lot of these professional players do actually they're looking for the next kind of um something to keep them, I guess, focused and they've got the kind of all the skills from the training. So yeah, I think we'll probably see a few more. I think Richie McCor is doing actually the New Zealand ex-New Zealand player. But yeah, like so, but yeah, no, definitely. And I much prefer this.

SPEAKER_06 28:11

You much prefer which running, yeah. Running, all right, yeah, than getting hit playing rugby.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Yeah, oh I love I watch it now, I'm like, yeah, no, I don't need that. I I mean I get plenty of bruises falling over, but yeah, you don't need to be smacked around at top of that as well.

SPEAKER_06 28:25

Yeah, so what's next? Have you got any plans for the year?

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Um, like nothing hugely concrete, but lots of ideas and um things that I'd love to do. Um so I mean I've got a place for South Downs Way, but I don't know how I feel about that. Why is that? Um well I don't know, because I guess like my real love is being in the mountains and like kind of the views and um and I kind of signed up to South Downs. I think like maybe last summer, like I might have been drunk at my sisters again, like all the best races are. But obviously, like being on it, I did a recky day before the race, and it was just the most perfect day. It was like October, November, it was clear, it was sunny, and it was like, oh my gosh, this is beautiful. And everyone that I speak to is like the South Downsway race is amazing. Um, and then obviously when we did the race, it was pitch black, it was like the middle of the night. So, yeah, there's a little bit of me that's like I haven't decided.

SPEAKER_06 29:27

I guess it's depends on what else you're gonna be there, Sophie. I was on the South Downsway in the daylight, way behind you. I saw the sunrise come up.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

Oh, I wasn't far, like I saw the sunrise just after that. So I wasn't far.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

Oh yeah, I think actually when we were on the South Downs, uh it was the sun's rising, but like the majority of it, it was and it was a like a moonless night, wasn't it? That night, and it was just it was pretty yeah, that was pretty cool. But um, yeah, so anyway, I have you done the South Downs raised race before.

SPEAKER_06 29:59

No, I haven't. I I've run along it in the uh race to the stones. No, wrong, race to the king, right? That uses it, but yeah, no, and that and that was years ago. I haven't done James's or the centurion one, no. Have you?

SPEAKER_01 30:17

So that's no, so that's I've got a place at that, so that's a possibility. Um, and then yeah, I mean, like I've got this thing with the spine now that possibly like maybe might have to try and do that. Which I've always said I would never do it, and then the last few years, every year I've kind of a little bit has been chipped away and gone, oh maybe were you keenly dot watching this year? Yeah, yeah, I was obsessed on the side.

SPEAKER_06 30:43

Yeah, it grabbed it grabbed me two years ago and I entered. Um and I think there was a thing where you could put your name on the um some waiting list if you didn't get in, and I didn't get in, and then I got an email in the the November before the January race to say, Oh, you're in if you confirm in the next, I don't know, um, 36 hours or something. And I bottled it. It was like too late to hold that kit because I hadn't bought any of the necessary by then or done any training for it. But now I'm like, Oh god, I watch it every year, and I'm like, Yeah, you should probably have a go at that.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

But yeah, so I'm interested to hear you say that yeah, you yeah, no, I definitely um like probably I mean, years ago I've got I would have been like, No, I'd never do the spine, and then yeah, as as the last few years have gone by and you sort of know people that have done it, and you kind of see them and you speak to them about their stories about it, and you're like, oh and I guess I mean that's why I entered Winter Downs was just to see like Killer Coke in the dark and in the winter.

SPEAKER_06 31:45

I mean I know it I know it's totally different, but so it is a bit of a stepping stone then the Winter Downs for the spine.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

Yeah, I mean, I I know it's nowhere near the spine, but obviously, and then listening to like Laura who won the race, her kind of interview and her sort of talking around this this this race and then the spine. Yeah, I definitely, but I mean I guess it's just if you can get them because obviously I think you know it's obviously getting more and more popular and it's becoming more and more kind of mainstream. So yeah, I guess more and more people like me have kind of gone, actually, yeah, maybe I would like to try it. So yeah, um I I've I think I'll probably try and enter, but we'll see if that place. And then of course that's what that'll sort of dictate what happens, doesn't it, for the rest of the year.

SPEAKER_06 32:25

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's a big one, isn't it? Yeah, it's very much the A race, doesn't it? If you get into something like that. Yeah, the only the the main thing I thought about it and didn't enter last year was the um it just seems like an expedition to me more than a running race. And I'm not sure that that's what I want to do.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 32:47

You know, I don't know if I want to just feel like I've trekked up the Pennine Way in the winter, although that'd be an amazing thing to do anyway, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 32:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 32:55

But yeah, I know it's I don't see it as a race.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

Well, and certainly not for me, but yeah, no, I no, I get that. And and I guess I'm funny because I think I sit in the middle because I don't really see myself as like a runner as such, like as in a fast runner. Um, uh I kind of you know, I like those mountainous, kind of hikey, you know, like YouTube. I was unbelievable, just being in those views and stuff.

SPEAKER_06 33:19

And then I guess it plays into your strengths as well, doesn't it? Because you're obviously a a survivor and uh you can keep going and a persister, yeah, and and good mental strength.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

So yeah, so I don't know, we'll see. I I like I think I will obviously try, and then you know, the universe will decide for me whether I should be doing it or not. Exactly that. Um, and then yeah, if I yeah, depending on that, I mean I'd like to do more in the mountains. Um, and I I kind of was like, I'm not doing anything in the UK again while I'm out here in Europe, and then suddenly, you know, obviously I did winter downs, and then I've got all these UK races. So it hasn't really I haven't really stuck to my plan. But um, you know, possibly something like Tot Dret, maybe get into that kind of realms, or obviously went with the the group of those like uh like James and Drew, etc., to Pika Pika, and that kind of that really interests me. Um, because we're just down the road from I mean, that's where we were the other day, me and Sarah, like at Tarascon, and that's where it's it's kind of around that area. So again, it's quite accessible and it could go down in Recce, but obviously that's a monster of a race, so yeah, that's um brutal the way James described it.

SPEAKER_06 34:29

Yeah, I it's probably exaggerating a little bit, but um, yeah, and the drama queen then, is it James?

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Uh no, I don't know. But that I mean, like Natalie, um Robbie's wife, Natalie. She I mean, she smashed it, and I was so privileged to obviously get to um uh pace her. I mean I say pace, but like run with her at the end of her race, and she was amazing, she was so tough. Um, and she went out. So yeah, I definitely was really inspired by watching her do it. So I don't know, um, and then I obviously I crewed Drew at um the Sud de France. Um again, like that's these kind of races in the Pyrenees that are really accessible to where I am at the moment. I feel like I should probably be making the most of those. So I don't know. We'll see, we'll see what happens.

SPEAKER_06 35:18

Yeah, there's so much out there now, isn't there? That's the thing.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 35:22

And it like you say, it's becoming so well actually hard to get into these events.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

And that's I think that some of these smaller events, like you know, out here that you know, while they're kind of still quite, you know, you can still just enter and just go and do it. I think kind of make the most of that. Uh, there's actually a race I might do in February. I was waiting to see if I was injured or not, but there's a 24-hour trail race out here in a place called Brunekau, which is just an hour down the road. So might go and give that a go, but we'll see how the body can.

SPEAKER_06 35:52

So that's 24 hours on the trail just to see how far you can go, is it?

SPEAKER_01 35:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 35:56

Brilliant. And is that much elevation or is it um it's kind of mid.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

I think it's like a couple of well, I think it's a couple of thousand metres, maybe. Right. Um, it's it's kind of a 50k loop. So um, yeah, it'll be an interesting one. But Sarah's done that one before, and she sort of said to me, She said, Oh, I think you'd be you know great doing this. And she said things to me, and I'm like, okay, brilliant, let's do it.

SPEAKER_06 36:19

Yeah, let's just go for it.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Let's just do it. Yeah, um, so we'll see. But I'm gonna try and run this weekend like back to back and just see how the body is. Um, and it and if we get through that, then yeah, possibly enter that.

SPEAKER_06 36:30

Wow, great.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

But um, yeah.

unknown 36:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

What about you? What are you entering this year?

SPEAKER_06 36:36

Uh well, I've only got one. Um, I've entered the Suffolk Backyard Ultra.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

Oh, yeah, you've said how good.

SPEAKER_06 36:44

Um, yeah, and I've just like focused on that. I mean, I say I've only done one. I've entered the Centurion Hundred Hills, but that's really just as part of training for you like that doesn't count. Yeah, but yeah, well I've to be honest, I've only ever done one 50k race before, so nice to do you know, something more speed.

SPEAKER_02 37:05

It's barely worth the lace of your trainers up for that.

SPEAKER_06 37:09

If I can still run reasonably quickly for a change.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Um it's funny how your perception changes, I think, like around the distances, you know, like are when you you know, when you think of 50k after you know, you've done three 200s this year, kind of going for a 50k is like, yeah, it's just a little training run.

SPEAKER_06 37:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Pack my little backpack and go.

SPEAKER_06 37:30

So yeah, it's Suffolk it is.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

Excellent. Is that your first backyard after?

SPEAKER_06 37:35

First time, yeah. I crewed on one for Lizzie Gatherer, which has been on the podcast before, but yeah, um yeah, this is uh my first attempt, but it's just come out. It really came off the back of doing three two hundreds, and I just thought, how far can you go? Um and it's probably well, I say it's the only way to find out it isn't really, because if nobody else goes with you, you could end up doing 12 hours, but that's not gonna happen because they've taken 300 entries for it. Excellent, and I think 250 uh can start. So there's gonna be some serious people in there wanting to go a long way. So I thought this is an opportunity to find out how far you can go.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

And you you were pretty good with your sleep, weren't you? Because I think remember talking to you about maybe one of the other races, you didn't sleep much within your sort of 70 odd hours.

SPEAKER_06 38:25

No, no, I didn't well when I did Northern Traverse, I got about 50 minutes, 55 minutes. And I got it up to I think I had about two hours twenty or something on on the um uh winter downs. So but that I think that's just accumulative fatigue, really. Yeah, I went much slower on there than I'd done on the other two. So um we'll let you off on your third two hundred of the year. Sorry?

SPEAKER_02 38:58

We'll let you off on your third two hundred of the year.

SPEAKER_06 39:02

Anyway, yeah, it's enough of me and what I'm doing. So yeah, so that's all good then. So we just have to see whether we meet each other on the spine race.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

But it sounds like a plan. We just need to try and get in now. It sounds like we've got date for January.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

It doesn't take much persuading, does it? I think that's the thing, isn't it? You you kind of like talk to someone who's kind of similar, and you're like, Oh yeah, uh good, let's do it. The next thing you know, you've signed up.

SPEAKER_06 39:29

I've had a lot of people since saying, Oh, that you should do that one, that's one for you. And I've I've been put to be honest, I'd had no intent, you know, I didn't want to do it, but there's always something nagging in the background. No, I've spoken to you, I'm gonna have to enter.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

So yeah, it was funny because I was obviously Adrian did did it this year, and you know, he was one of the ones he was amazing. He also contributed to my career on Winston, so I need to give him a shout out because he would just pop up and just be amazing at kind of picking my morale at when I needed it. And I was sort of watching him do the spine. And when he when I found out he was doing the spine last year, I was like, You've signed up to the spine. I just couldn't I like the thought of Adrian doing it. I just that's not disrespectful to him, but with his organizational skills, I was surprised. And just seeing him go out there and do it is has been incredible. And and I actually messaged him and I said, Oh, I think I want to do it, and his response showed back was like, I think you'd be great, you should do it. But then if you ask Steve Chamberlain, I think his views are very different.

SPEAKER_06 40:27

I know, that's but that was another reason I didn't enter because when I saw what Steve state he got himself into last year and still went on and finished it, yeah, and I thought, oh god, he, you know, that is brutal with the look of it. Um yeah, and I respect it, you know, respect Steve and what he's done in the past, so you're like, oh god, yeah. But you just never know where you with any ultra, you don't know where you're gonna be, really, do you?

SPEAKER_01 40:56

No. And it's things like the it's like things like it's not even really about the running, is it? It's like, you know, do your feet survive? Because something like if something goes wrong with your feet, and that could just be a complete like you could have looked after your feet as well as you could, but something could still go wrong. So I think there's so many kind of things that can go wrong and almost uncontrollables that can go wrong that can ruin your race, it's almost it's hard, isn't it, to make a judgment, especially over that kind of time.

SPEAKER_06 41:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Or just falling over, rolling your ankle.

SPEAKER_06 41:24

That's right, yeah, it can be something really simple, can't it?

SPEAKER_01 41:27

Getting squashed by someone.

unknown 41:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 41:34

Been there, done all that now. If you can get through that, you can do the spine.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

Oh, cat, yeah. Like wear a like mouth guard and yeah, yeah, in full body armor.

SPEAKER_06 41:46

I tell you one thing, I won't do. If I do the spine, whether I finish it or not, I will not be doing that Arctic ultra. Because I was thinking how far do these things, you know, it's always like, oh, the dragon's back, yeah. You know, and it goes on, and of course, I've never completed the dragon's back, but it goes on and on, doesn't it? It's like, where does it end?

SPEAKER_02 42:08

Where did it end? Where do you draw the line? Like, where is it?

SPEAKER_06 42:11

When is it?

SPEAKER_02 42:11

Are you gonna go back to Dragon's Back?

SPEAKER_06 42:14

Oh god, Sophie. I I mean I I want to go back to all the races I've ever DNF'd. You know, I hate having unfinished business, um, and that is definitely one of them. So yeah, but I'm gonna do a few other things first. I I've sort of mentally put it to bed in terms of where I got to with that race. Um but yeah, I mean it's always nagging away in the background. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

Yeah, and it's a very special race, isn't it?

SPEAKER_06 42:42

It is a very special race, yeah. Yeah, I I I mean, whatever else you do, for me that's right up there is the best.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Yeah. Yeah, but I I I think that race, it definitely changed me. Um, yeah, definitely. Like it was a just the whole package, I think, of the race, the recus, meeting people. Yes, you know, some of the people well, obviously, like Steve coming into my life was pretty cool. So um, you know, yeah, it's um yeah, it definitely did sort of change your life and it definitely sets you up with a level of resilience, just that camping, really.

SPEAKER_06 43:14

Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, no, it's great. Um, I'd need to do it on a year when global warming isn't taking effect on the flipping race.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

But uh I think I definitely preferred the warmer time than the wet time, though. I've got to be honest. Like if I knew what yeah, I think obviously I was quite inexperienced. I think it just hit us from nowhere, that warmth, but now I know what how to deal with the weather, the warmth. I think I definitely prefer that to just be wet and soggy and going back to your tent and everything being wet. That was yeah, yeah, that's my vibe.

SPEAKER_06 43:48

Well, that's the nature of it, isn't it? Yeah, especially mountain ultra running, it's what you get dealt with, really.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

Yeah, I think yeah, that that kind of nonstop though. I I think I prefer just where you just gotta get on and get it done rather than that pain around to go and set up every night and unpack everything and yeah.

SPEAKER_06 44:06

Yeah I'm with you on that yeah. Although the spine race might change all have you.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

I've been taking this and we're like kind of like that but the worst of it. It's like you don't actually yeah yeah maybe I maybe I should speak too soon. Anyway, we it's gonna be out of our control.

SPEAKER_06 44:22

Yes. Yeah. The whole thing is isn't it you just start panicking when you get an email back saying you're in that's when Yeah and then the reality sets in. Sets in, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

But then you get a little bit of time to forget about it because it's so far in advance and you kinda go, oh yeah okay right and then suddenly it was there. They come round don't they it was like the winter downs I I listened to James's podcast with Ali Bailey on in April remember and and you know it wasn't long before it'd come round so yeah yeah I definitely had a panic because I was like oh yeah when I signed up to it I'll go and I'll get back and I'll recogni and I'll be fine and then suddenly it was September October and I had it recogied and yeah suddenly it's like oh but it all worked out in the end.

SPEAKER_06 45:11

Yeah well I won't be wrecking the pen if I get in I won't be wrecking in the Pennine way. Just gonna rock up and run it. No walk no oh Kev come on before I go for a little wrecking well I might get up to Derbyshire or something. I think if I'm investing all that into that race I will definitely go into a little bit good for you you do it professionally I don't know about professionally I just really don't want to have to go back and do it again we'll see we'll see we'll see what the universe does yeah exactly that hopefully we'll yeah you'll have to get yourself out of here and come for a little Pyrenees oh that would just be amazing yeah Sarah take you for a little uh little break run around the yeah that would be really nice actually right hold you to that yeah no definitely it'd be great to be united once I get Suffolk out of the way that's June yeah June right okay okay cool well it's been lovely to talk to and at last catch up and hopefully this is recorded I feel bad I've forgotten everything from the race I think I've sort of meant to be I know the previous interview was so good post uh the Winter Downs but it was all about the winter downs I feel we've had more of a chat this time yeah no it's great it's great to chat to you and to you Sophie and I look forward to seeing you again at a race soon if not yeah we can show you around some of the Pyrenees.

SPEAKER_02 46:42

Yeah and we're all right cheers go bye now