Aid Station
Aid Station
Ep 35 - An In-depth interview with James Elson - Ultra through and through!
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Kev gets a behind the scenes interview with Centurion Running owner, Race Director, international Athlete and Ultra guru James Elson. Yes Kev has man-fan syndrome but manages to stay professional throughout. So professional in fact that James does not swear once!
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Hello and welcome to AStation. This is episode number thirty-five. Well, I c I really can't explain uh how exciting this is uh to bring you this podcast because it is with none other than James Elson, who many of you who run any ultras in the south of England will know as one of the major race directors in this area. Uh James has been in the Ultra Sport since 2005. He has a very deep knowledge uh of our sport. He has race directed so many races, I can't begin to tell you. He's held a number of posts in different uh bodies within our sport. Uh he's represented Great Britain as well in 24-hour track format, and he has just got ultra running through his veins. Um, you will find from this interview that he doesn't need much prompting to talk deeply and knowledgeably about our sport. So I'm not gonna delay it any longer. Let's get straight to James. So here we are, under the duvet with James Ellison and others. That's an in-joke. Most of you who know James will know his podcasting style. Um, and I'm delighted, thanks very much, James, for offering to do this. Um but I want to focus no, this would be really unfair. I was gonna say I want to focus just on the business side of Ultra. Um but as an ultra runner, that would be really unfair as you've just finished the Arch of Attrition. And although I pitched this podcast at mid-to-backpack runners, um never ever interviewed anybody at the sharp end yet. Um be really nice to know how that went.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I don't think I could claim I was at the sharp end. I managed to get yeah, towards the sharper end and then unraveled a bit. Um no, thanks. Yeah, it was a great weekend again. Um, anyone who's been to a Mug Crew race, I know you have yourself, knows what a great show they put on. Southwest Coast Path. I think I sort of in danger of repeating myself in many places, but I do think it's some of the best running in the the UK outside of the mountains. Um, much like you are. You know, I'm a massive fan of our mountain areas, but um the coast path is special and it's such a mixture of different underfoot conditions. Um, this year we got a spring day down there as well. I mean, literally running a t-shirt throughout Friday. Um, yeah, so it's a third my third time doing the hundreds and um loved it, had a really, really good first half, was getting moderately excited that there was a bit of a return to form, and then had some stomach issues in the third quarter, but managed to really sort of grit my teeth and hold on a bit in the end, which I was pleased because I think sometimes if you finished a race before, you could be a little bit lazy, maybe you know, just start hiking it in and sort of go, Well, it's not my day, I've done this better. But I did manage to sort of get it done, get in and yeah, dug in and yeah, and obviously that they do these buckles, yeah. You got the black one again. Yeah, so it's sub 24 for the black buckle, and I've already got one, and I was like, Well, how much am I really gonna hurt myself to get another? But I tell you what, it it it does provide an extra layer of motivation that you know. Um, I know it's the same for people going for the one-day buckles at our races, um, and I scraped it by about seven minutes at the end, but it really wasn't looking good from three, four hours out. So that that sort of I've come away feeling good about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's great to hear because the yeah, we all need some target wherever that is. Absolutely, and and you know, in my case it's age group, but yeah, you you always if there's something else there for you, even it's nice to hear you say even at the front end that if you can, yeah, and you were you were inside top 20 as well, so yeah, that's gotta be a thing, hasn't it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think so. I mean, my my the format I've taken with my own racing the last six, seven years, I I just don't get the training volume I used to. You know, when I look at 2014, 15, 16, I was doing 12 to 14 hours a week in peak training blocks and and coming in prepared to the absolute finest detail. These days I'm getting half that volume, and I have to accept that I can't race to the same level. I do think I'm physically capable of it. It's just a pure can I find the time? Not just to train, but also to recover enough from that training. Yeah, so I've had to accept I can't kind of race to the the way I used to, which was go out hard and generally do pretty well. So now I start sort of 20th, 30th, 40th through the early checkpoints, and I get a huge boost by kind of running through lots of runners. Um, and I got to Land's End and Steve Cousins from Film My Run was there. Um, and he said, Oh, you're in 11th, and that was higher than I thought I'd be at that point. And I sort of I was kind of thinking, okay, now I've got that, I'm competitive, I can fight, and that's a good psychological you know, crutch to lean on in the second half. But very quickly after that, it became clear that wasn't going to be sustainable. And then a bunch of lads, very strong lads came past me. Sabrina Veget, she she passed me at the checkpoint. We'd done a lot of miles earlier in the race together. Um, yeah, so slightly disappointed, but you know, sub 24, top 20, as you say. I'll definitely take it.
SPEAKER_00I'll take it, yeah. And you did that sort of style at the spine, didn't you? You didn't you move up through in the spine?
SPEAKER_03I had a very different race experience there. I had a shocking first day. I mean, I got to Hebden Bridge. This was January 2023, yeah. My first spine. Um, the weather wasn't great, but I just could not settle. Uh stomach was off, energy levels all over the place. Actually, I felt almost like I was ill. I got to Hebden at 46 miles, and I seriously considered being in the race. I actually started looking at train times. Um, and in the end, I took myself off to bed. Um, I did I don't think I slept, but I was stationary like laying still for a couple of hours, got up and ate a big meal and thought, I really don't want to do that bit again, so let's just get on with it. But it was very much like one step at a time. I can't tell you, like from there to the finish, things got better all the way through the race, which was something I'd never experienced. I mean, at that point, you've got 210 miles left. Um, and the the last section, I caught up with a friend of mine, Matt Neal, who just finished his seventh spine actually last week, two weeks ago, um, around Middleton, and we did the second half of the race together, and we ran the cheap like the Cheviots last marathon was by far the strongest section of the race. So an amazing experience to know that it doesn't always get worse, and I kind of know that, but I've never experienced it to that degree. So it's the complete opposite, really, of the arc. But as you know, with the 200s, you have just got to have a different head on your shoulders and approach it a different way, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And and there's so much more time to get through it and recover in the 200, isn't there, or anything of that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you almost can't go too slowly, can you?
SPEAKER_00I mean that's right, yeah.
SPEAKER_03As long as you're moving, it's alright, it'll be alright. Um, yeah, good. Magical experience that I mean it is miserable, but it is incredible.
SPEAKER_00And while while we're on the subject of the spine, because tomorrow they're opening the gates, yeah, the floodgates, I reckon, with the amount of feedback I've heard about it. Um, would you have liked to have been on it this year? You know, Matt messaged me thinking more about the ground conditions, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, yes is the short answer. In the lead up, I I wasn't envious at all. Matt messaged me a week before and goes, Do you wish you were running? And I said no. Right. Um, but perhaps because I had the arc anyway, didn't feel like I was missing out too much. But then I I I I saw the conditions and I saw the times being laid down. Now I spoke to Matt on the phone a couple of days ago because we're now planning our northern traverse recis, right? And he said he should have been probably about 12 hours faster. He said it was like 95% of it was rock hard. He took his waterproofs off at the end and didn't even have any mud on him. And he just said it it was perfect. Obviously, it was cold and it was a bit of snow, but he said it's not gonna be any better than that. Yeah. So you sort of think, well, missed an opportunity, but then I've got a good one at the arc. So it's the wet though, it's that that creeping wet snow. You know, if it's two, three degrees and you're wet through that's the worst.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's gotta be, yeah. And that's why these races can never be compared, can they? It's like like with your 200 that you know, this year we had it mild and and a little bit wet, but nothing much. Really bad underfoot, well no boggy underfoot. But you know, another year might be dry building up, or you might get frost, or could be. So I think it yeah, it's really hard to compare year after year, and they just have to take them as they especially 200.
SPEAKER_03I felt a little for Jasmine, obviously, comment on her other half was running, but for people to sort of be like, Oh, Jack's taking 10 hours off her time he had, don't get me wrong, I don't take anything away. That is one of the best, probably one of the best ultra distance runs we've ever seen in this country. Um, but to compare anybody's spine this year to other years is a fallacy. You know, Jasmine could have been knee deep in bogs for 30 miles that Jack has just trotted over. And how much of a difference that makes? I don't know. One thing is clear Jack won the race by 10 hours. Yeah, so I mean that tells you a lot too, because over that field, that was incredible.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's gotta be the biggest head-to-head this country's seen, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03Probably it's it's funny, isn't it? Because we don't really get British, the top British athletes competing against each other on British soil, they'll you know be under contracts and have brands that are interested in them racing internationally, and they they'll get better competition internationally. So we tend not to sit unless it's the winter here. Sorry, yeah. Um, so the spine and to a smaller extent, the arc, you do get that higher level competition, which is great to see.
SPEAKER_00All right, brilliant. Let's get off the topic. Yeah, only because there might be a lot of people out there who haven't got a clue what we're talking about. Yeah, I appreciate that. Okay, so yeah, really, as I've said everybody, um, my main aim having got uh James on board to come on the podcast was really to talk to him about uh the business side of Ultra. Um, and and the real reason, and I'm excited to be able to do this with James, is because I think he's one of the pioneers. Um, and I've done a bit of homework on him, and to save him going over it, it it he ran his first Ultra in uh 2005, yeah. Uh a 40 miler from Tring to Town or something, is it called? Yeah, yeah, Tring to Town, yeah.
SPEAKER_03It was the last 45 miles of the Grand Union Canal race, basically. Okay, doesn't exist anymore, obviously.
SPEAKER_00And he was very much back of pack.
SPEAKER_03Oh had full MDS kit on. I had a couple of McDonald's cheeseburgers in my front pack. Oh, really? Um, me and a friend of mine, I lived in West Hamstead at the time. We got to the end and we were absolutely ruined. I mean, I think we were out there for ten and a half hours or something, but you never forget that, do you? Like it's yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, we were almost dead last. I think there's only a couple of people behind us. Right.
SPEAKER_00Anyway, and then you moved on um to a point where at some point maybe you can explain how you got to the point where you thought, oh, we need an ultra race here or in the south, or yeah, or what what got you to that point?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so the landscape was very different then in terms of events. Um, I went I was interested in multi-days, I was more interested in travelling than running. So I was going off doing multi-day races in the various deserts around the world, and I quickly sort of got to be really good friends with much like you've had at the Dragon's Back experience. We shared a tent, six or seven of us, uh Singaporeans, um, Australians, Americans, uh, and we would get together at these events, and we so we were all focused on different areas of scene. It really opened my eyes to what was out there. Um, and everybody just seemed to talk about bad water, like it was oh, this desert race is really difficult. You know, NDS was still calling itself the toughest race on the planet or whatever, yeah. But actually, it was it was all about bad water. So I started my journey to try and get there, and you needed to have run a couple of hundred miles to get in, right? So I I was looking for single-stage hundred mile races, and and there was none in the UK. There was Grand Union, which obviously was 45 miles longer. Um, Lakeland started in 2007 or eight, just begun. Um, West Island Way race was going, but it was unmarked and it was a long way away, and that was it. Um, and I just thought, there's a this is ridiculous. So I spoke to a friend of mine, Henk, who was organizing Caesars Camp at the time. Um, he just started, and that was a hundred miles on a 10-mile loop around Holdershop, which I know is not that far from you. Um and and uh yeah, he was like, Listen, I think we could have a go at doing something on the North Downs Way. So with his help and support, and also with the help and support of Neil from XNRG, who's still going strong and a great little company, um, we just went for it, put the North Downsway 100 on. So that was August 2011. Um did a mate. Yeah, go on. How old are you? Oh what to 2011? I would have been 28, 28, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So that's quite a step, I think, for a 28-year-old to decide. Yeah, yeah. Did you see it as a business opportunity? No, all right.
SPEAKER_03And that first one we did not for profit, didn't make any difference. We lost loads of money anyway. Um, but I saw it as an opportunity to try something that I was into. Um I was yeah, I was consume, I was consumed by the hundred-mile distance in a way I still am. You know, I was always at home on US hundred mile websites, and there's still a website called runhundreds.com that's real old school, but I used to be on there all the time. Um, and I I just thought I wanted to be part of that, like from a different side of just than just being a runner. Um, and I was working for an outdoor advertising company in London at the time and and just forged, we didn't have kids then, so I was just forging this extra time out. Yeah, um, and it was a passion. But what happened was after North Downs Way, everyone was just like, This is incredible, you gotta do, you've got to do this again. And I thought, right, it's the start of the journey, things went from there, really, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and so that was 2011, and you've now got a race roster of 11, is it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, 10 this year, but with the track hundred back next year, 11.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, all right, okay. So what's that's been very much an organic growth then, hasn't it? Is that did you do it in that way that you were just I you know, obviously, as a certain amount of money came in, you were then able to reinvest into growing it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I mean we started with uh you know, I put 50 quid of my own money down to open the company and to get registered. Yeah. Um, we never borrowed anything, we never overreached. We we tried to do everything organically from the start. Because I didn't have to earn a living from it, I could do it sustainably and responsibly. Yeah. Um, so you you know, put the pieces together. We the US Grand Slam I attempted in 2011, but I DNF'd at Vermont. So ended the slam, but I still went out and did Leadville. And the the main aim for me was to add three other hundreds to create a UK slam. So we added South Downsway 100, which was being organized by a friend of mine, Jen Jackson, who'd had enough, and she was like, Do you want it? And I said, Yep, fine. North Downsway obviously was going. Thames Path, an autumn 100, or used to be winter hundred. I just came up with from scratch. Right. And then that was the the 400s. Then I added the South Downsway 50 because there was definitely a gap for that, and the South Downs has always been my focus, the place I've loved the most and done most of my miles. Um, then the North Downsway 50, then we added two more 50s to make the 50 slam. So that's the eight events, and then in the last few years, we've obviously we've had the track 100, which is purely sort of an elite level record setting race. Yeah, the 50k at 100 hills we added last year because long overdue that we offered our community something that wasn't quite a difficult 50 as a first entry level point, you know. And the 200, as you know, having run it, is just uh like a passion project, really, yeah, from having experienced that distance. Um, we've always just followed what we love. Like I love the 100 mile distance, that's always been the main focus, and then tried to stick to the places that mean a lot to us, and it has grown organically, and it's the the same with the shop and the coaching, yeah. It just it's all about balance and struggling to find it.
SPEAKER_00I think another great thing that seems to come across, and when I first got introduced to Centurion, I think it was 2017, I entered the autumn hundred, something like that. Um, was the whole community, yeah, and the community seems to have grown with your business. Yeah. Do you want to expand on that? How is that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I feel a very deep sense of responsibility for for that and to that community. Yeah, a lot of people, especially with UTMB sniffed around a few years ago and the direction they've gone. You know, there were conversations being had about, you know, where's what's the direction of the business? What do you want to do with it? You know, you're trying to sell it, UTMB trying to obviously get involved. And I I feel that it's not really mine, uh, it belongs to a group of several thousand people who have literally made it what it is. No, this might all sound a bit cliche and a bit like, oh yeah, yeah, but um obviously it is my baby, and I still hold the buck stops with me, and that is a lot of responsibility to bear. But the community, you show up to an event, and it's not the race director who's in charge, it's the community who on on top of which everything else sits. Yeah, they're the ones at the checkpoints, they're the ones who are going to ensure the safety of competitors through those gateways. Yeah, they're the ones that create the atmosphere and the the vibe of the race. Um, and that is literally the lifeblood of the sport. You can't do anything without the volunteers, we'd never be able to put a race on. You can't afford to pay people in a traditional way, yeah. Um, and I and I do see a lot of organisers rushing to try and get big and almost missing the point. Like you can't just get big, you need to grow the community and then see where that takes you. It's because we started early and there was very little in the southeast at the time. Obviously, we have been able to build that slowly, organically, and really like foster it, nurture it. So it is more difficult now to come in and just stick a race on. Um, but we do work very hard to try and make sure everybody feels involved and engaged and valued because that's that's what it is, basically.
SPEAKER_00I think that philosophy is reflects back well because you've created what is it about 14 years or something you've been going now. Uh certainly as a uh race RD or as a race company, that um the you've given opportunity for people to enter into Ultra. Alright, maybe it was hundreds and then fifties, but you might have gone the wrong way around. But the it's incredible now the size of the community that that there is in the south, particularly, you know, that's affection has an affection for centurion events. So I hope that reflects you feel that that reflects well as well, because it gives us an opportunity that we wouldn't have had if you hadn't have decided, or somebody might have come along, but it wouldn't have been so coordinated and consistent.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, I I get that. I'm I'm terrible at receiving compliments and sort of terrible at sort of uh accepting that that's something we did. I think it sort of built itself, really. And you the relationships between people within the community are what I find so valuable. There are there are friendship groups out there that um I mean, we've just been at the arc that you know, Drew and I are there watching people that we've only met because they volunteered our events and their finishes and again trying not to be too cliche, but they mean just as much, like Rich Dillion, for example, who's at the arc for the fifth time trying to finish, seeing him cross the finish line the weekend, it's the highlight of the weekend, right? Um, and it's not you you can't force that, it happens organically as you get to know. People in each other, and then so I feel like the community is that embedded, integrated, like involved and engaged with each other that it will just look after itself now. Whether we carry on or not, um, it will still be there. They'll hang out at other events, you know. But those people was those relationships will still exist. So, in many ways, I'm a bit more relaxed about it now because I don't think it needs to be it, they will look after each other almost as much as we look after them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I did find that I mean it's still you're still going to get a reasonalisation. Like this year, I did a couple of GB Ultra events, um, didn't know anybody there because clearly they're all from the Northwest, or um, and they seem to have have community around them, but there's definitely getting more and more, you know, as people you enter more things, you get more confident, you want to run further, you want to run in the mountains, so you end up running into other organizers like Oreo or whatever. Yep. Um, and there's definitely a an out sort of I don't want to call it cross-fertilisation, but there's a uh a community that's growing uh larger now, I think. It's still it's almost becoming like a UK community, yeah. You you know, you get a crossover a lot of people now, whereas before it wasn't.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think there's a lot of shared knowledge. Like GB Ultras, they started a couple years after us. I know Wayne really well, he's a fantastic bloke, and he cares deeply the way we do, and it shows you know, he's built a successful thing up there. Um, he's he stayed in his area, we've stayed in ours. I think there's a lot of respect between the some of the longer standing organisers. You know, Hardmores have got their patch, and Blakeland have got their patch, and Wayne's got his. Yes, yes, some go out of those areas, you know, he's got race across Scotland, whatever. Um, there is a lot of uh crossover between the volunteers and the runners, but I also think that's helping the sport because everybody's sharing more knowledge, and it's the information, the knowledge, and the expertise, and the those those things that you then help the runners out the checkpoints, help the runners out on the course, make things safer, more sustainable, more sharing of ideas. There is a network now that there didn't used to be.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, that's great. So, um, in in uh that respect of being a race organizer, is there um do you get together as race organizers? Is there an organizers organization?
SPEAKER_03Do you know that's a really good question? Um, about 10 years, no, eight years ago, I tried to set up um a network, a proper network, because in the US, um the old school lot, they've got proper chains of communication with each other, and I noticed it when I went to Rocky Raccoon 100 once, and Ian Sharman had who was my sort of co-coach at St. Turian at the time, ran 1244 and set a new North American 100-mile record. And I stood around at the finish um a couple of hours after him, and um the race director was on the phone talking to John Medinger, who um does all the announcements at Auburn at the end of Western States. He owned Ultra Running magazine at the time, and I said to them, What's the deal? And they go, Well, we've got this network of RDs, so we're just discussing whether this was a record, you know, where it stood in the overall scheme of things. Wow. This is like pre-WhatsApp, really. So um, I was like, that's really quite valuable. So I set something up, and initially it was just an email group with um sort of who you'd imagine were the sort of biggest 15 or 20 organizers at the time, and everyone just said, yeah, great. And it died really fast because it's too disparate. People are just some people are full-time, some people are doing one race a year, some people just not that engaged, and I wasn't quite sure what we were trying to achieve out of it. Um, unfortunately, it took a bit of a negative context in that, you know, for example, Bloke took a taxi at the Thames Ring once, and then it became right, let's create a a list of runners who've you know been DQ'd, and I was just like, this isn't the right direction. I would say I enjoy uh like having comms with most of the key race organisers in this country, and the door is always open. If an organiser comes to us and says, trying to do this, can you help? Yeah, um, they will get help. Um, but there's no official network as such. No, I'm just not sure it could be sustained that way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I get that. I just wonder whether there was some way I'm thinking again for maybe my listeners, is that getting into ultra running, you know, is there something it seems to be left to individual RDs to decide obviously what they're going to put on. Um, and and there's no sort of uh driven way of getting people into ultra, is there really? No, there is you stumble into it having run a few marathons or something.
SPEAKER_03I do worry about that a little bit with my non-centurion hat on. I'm also the chairperson at the trail running association and the champ secretary there. But those are volunteer roles where obviously we are there to steer the sport in the right direction, and we know we cannot really affect what races end up getting put in what areas, but yeah, and and then that how that impacts the runners in those areas and it digs into the volunteer pool. And is there space for it? And is it now crowding the trail and the market and everything else? Is it sustainable? Unfortunately, it's just got to work itself out. I mean, yeah, we we've had to cancel the Ridgeway this year because we're just not getting the uptake. Right. There are too many events, there are organizers putting things on in the same areas as the things that already exist in a perfectly good, sustainable, community-led races. Um, and that will never change, you know. If and people will vote with their feet if if something can survive, um there are very few people who are just willing to bury tens of thousands of their own money to just keep a race going. There are a few, um, but it does create controversy and some bad feeling. But generally, I think the community manages to, like I say, vote with their feet, and you can see it now with UTMB.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Like panning, they're getting it in so many different ways on social media.
SPEAKER_00Um I think it's good. I think you know, you can't have the you know, the tail is gonna wag the dog in this situation, whether they like it or not.
SPEAKER_03So no, you're right, and I I'm you know, I think it will hopefully make things better. I don't want to see UTMB die. I think it's an incredible route and a race that I've been lucky enough to go to several times. Do I want to see them make changes to the way it's run and the direction they're taking the overall business of the sport? Yeah, I do. And I think it might possibly have to happen if people keep voting.
SPEAKER_00You touched on one of your volunteer hats there. Um, I think you've got a a number of roles, haven't you? Can you expand on those?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I probably don't have any spare time, but I managed to keep your chairman of this, that, and the other.
SPEAKER_00I don't know.
SPEAKER_03I'm the chairperson of the TRA, and then obviously I took the Ridgeway on and I'm championship secretary. Uh, all TRA roles. Yeah. Um, I got handed those really by Tim Mitchell, who was the chairperson before he he just needed to step back. Um, and it was sort of a gradual handover, and then I sort of ended up becoming that. I I'm just a steward in those roles, you know. I'll take everything forward and at the right time I'll pass it on to the next person and go back to just being on the committee. And we're lucky now we've got a really good committee. Um, in terms of UK Athletics, I've got probably three or four different hats. So I'm on the licensing committee for track ultras, so we're on the advisory panel for that. Um, I'm involved in the brand new Trail Mounting Um advisory group, which is gonna which has been established to oversee selection of teams and policies around mounting and trailing. So it's quite a prestigious role, which I'm really happy to be part of. And does that go into coaching for mounting and it does the where it crosses over into coaching and legacy, you know, athlete legacy, um coach development, athlete, it's a huge area, and I'm really just there to offer advice to the people that will actually at UK who will actually push that forward.
SPEAKER_00Pleased to hear that. That's that's an area I'd like to see get expanded with E.
SPEAKER_03You know, the deal with UKA is just financing, budget, time, yeah, turnover in roles, it's not been sustainable. No, uh, Tom Crags has just taken a role. Um, that's now he sits across England athletics and new cathletics, and he's someone I know very well. And I'm that's gotta be a good thing, hasn't it? It's such an important thing that he's coming in to sort of steer things, yeah. And then and then charity-wise, um, into Ultra Um set up last year. Yeah, Andrew Heaney established that with Damo Hall and myself, really. Um, just to try and um help people into the sport, really. Uh specifically, people who've got financial barriers. Yeah, um, you know, I was pleased to be able to work with black trail runners right from the outset, and they were off and running, they don't need any more help from me, that's for sure. They are flying. Good. And um, she races in a similar way. We try and green runners, try and get involved with these projects at the start, help you know, get them going, and then inevitably they'd you know they're I'm gonna touch on that because I listened, I've been listening to your voice all flipping morning actually coming round it on the M26.
SPEAKER_00Sorry about that no, no, that was deliberate bit of research. I listened to your Centurion uh Women in Runnins podcast, yeah, which I must admit I hadn't listened to that episode before, yeah. Um, which was really enlightening. Um, and I recommend that everybody, male and female, listen to that. Uh, but it's really about where has that gone since you know, in terms of women coming into the sport. Um, and have you seen it in your race numbers? I know you keep tabs on your percentages of male-female participation.
SPEAKER_03Are we seeing numbers rise? Uh, yes. Are we seeing them rise quickly? No. Um the shorter the because really simple, the shorter the distance, um, the higher percentage uh female participation. Right. Um one what I want to see is responsible development of sport. Is it responsible just to sit around and and say everything's fine and it works? No, things change, things move forward. Female participation's always been an issue.
SPEAKER_00I I wasn't like pointing that at you, but I was thinking this was 18 months ago, where are we at now?
SPEAKER_03No, it's a really good question because obviously Sophie has set up she races with a set of objectives. I think she's achieved several of those already. Specifically, if you're an organizer now that doesn't provision for women at events, women's toilets, um, sanitary products at start lines and in checkpoints, um, equal prize money or distribution of awards, uh, women's only results. You are nowhere. Like you you should have been doing those things anyway. And Sophie's prompted lots that weren't to do those things. Brilliant. Um whether that's pervaded enough now that it's just second nature is questionable. She I still think she needs to keep banging that drum, as we all do. Um, where it's getting interesting is um especially as well on postpartum and and pregnancy to federal policies, these are easy wins for organizers. Um, is where it goes from here, because I don't necessarily agree with some of the things that Sophie wants, um, but I'm a bloke. That's not for me to say. I can have my opinion as an organizer. For example, discussion around whether women should be given more time in events, because on average females are 10% slower over the equivalent distances men. That's not me saying women are slower because anecdotally that's from the data. Yeah, and then do you give out like a sub-24-hour buckle to women um who run sub-27 because that's the equivalent? And some there's a lot of seems to be a lot of chatter around whether some of those things actually need to happen or whether actually a lot of women don't want those things to happen, they want to compete on a level playing field. So the journey's not over, it's just a long.
SPEAKER_00I mean, if if you take it right back to I don't want to call it basic, but if you go back to cross country, yeah, you know, women are still running different differences.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I took my kid to the county cross-country two weeks ago. The women are still running less than the men, yeah. So I I mean, I I think things have changed. I think we're probably it's never gonna end. The journey's never gonna end, but I don't see us get into parity in the hundreds of women and men taking part. Men are predisposed to take something on they're not really readily prepared for, we're terrible for that, right? Whereas women are far more measured and almost uh bring a level of like anxiety that they're overreaching, and there's making it as accessible as possible, and then there's understanding the basic human nature that drives men and women in different ways. Yeah, um, all we can do is continue open the door as far as we possibly can to remove any barriers, and I think we're most of the way there in a lot of cases.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's good. How about women RDs? Where are all of them?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's a good question. Um, even now you say that, you know, I can probably only think of you know, Jane at Mud Crew, Nikki Griffin, obviously, who has RD'd several of our races and has grand tour Skidor, um Mel Stevenson up in the peaks. Uh there's there's not many. Yeah. Um yeah, I can think of a few more, but it's a minuscule percentage. I I couldn't tell you why that is.
SPEAKER_00No, I don't I don't because they're brilliant organisers in my experience, women.
SPEAKER_03Listen, I it's slightly controversial, but our staff here at St. Jurion. Um we have far more females on the staff than men. Yeah. Um, I've generally had more experience and better experience with women in the sport in terms of like overseeing roles than men. I I just level of detail, um, you know, being able to oversee lots of different areas and different sort of have different skill sets all running concurrently, yeah, do things in a measured way. Um, obviously it's that's very broad strokes, but it surprises me that there aren't more women taking, you know, leads.
SPEAKER_00I guess it's the old sort of like the sales funnel thing, isn't it? That the more you get in uh uh women into the sport, the more you might get one or two go right through and say, Yeah, I want to run races or hopefully. Yeah. Do you think there's a place for women only? Well, I don't mean like as a general thing for all the sport, I just mean somebody to put on a women organised women. It's been tried.
SPEAKER_03I am yeah, so Hugh up with Pen Lynn Ultras has got a female only Ultra, and I think that sold very quickly and very well. Um, Paul, who RDs our um North Downs A50, 100 Hills 50k, he runs a company called Big Bear in the Midlands and he's put on a women-only six-hour event. Right. Um, again, good uptake. Is it necessary? I think inherently you're by doing that, you're saying there's a problem with men in the race. Um, and you're removing a barrier that I don't know that it truly exists. Again, I can't speak for this. I'm sure there are women entering those races that are saying, I'm now not dealing with pushy macho man on the start line. Like I can run unencumbered by that ego factor. Yeah, um, they feel more comfortable in that environment, they're out in the woods on the trail by themselves. There is an exposure level there that maybe is less. So that all of those things have value. Is it strictly necessary? I'm not sure. And certainly when I read people's comments online about those things, you get equal numbers of positive and negative. Right. Lots of people saying, What's the need for this? Like, what actually are you trying to solve here? Um, but again, people will vote with their feet if if women want those experiences, organisers will put them on and they'll survive and they'll they'll thrive. So fair enough if that happens.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, it's a really difficult one, I think, as a male, because I think God, I've run loads of ultras where the women I mean, they're much better than me anyway, but they're also much bloody tougher. Yeah, you know, it's not so I you almost get this thing that a women's only race is because they're not they're a bit delicate, you know, and and that's not the truth, yeah. Especially in ultra running.
SPEAKER_03It's impossible for you and I to sit here, right? Being middle-aged white blokes.
SPEAKER_00Well, I'm beyond that.
SPEAKER_03You know, like Sabrina at the weekend at the arc, she is gonna run a women's only event. She wants to beat all the blokes, and she is. Yeah, um, she is uh the hardest person out on that course by none. I mean, she will run through a brick wall and um you know, needs less than anybody, yeah. And she's she just wouldn't categorically wouldn't see no need for or desire for, and actually um, you know, wouldn't want to see those things necessarily in the sport, but then she's not a typical ultra runner. Sabrina is a world-class athlete, yeah. Yeah, so she's not a good it's not you know, you can't use an N of one, but no, we'll see.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're right. It's that like all these things, they work themselves out because people vote with their feet or vote with their cash, and that's the way it's but I think we're a responsible sport.
SPEAKER_03I think the majority of us in the sport are in it for the right reasons and want to see growth in the right way. So I'm confident that it will work itself out properly.
SPEAKER_00So moving on, I was pleased to hear to you say that the uh black trail runners were doing really well and expanded. So equally, it's sort of similarly to the women. Where do you think the ethnic groups are within Ultra Running now from where they were?
SPEAKER_03That's a good question. Um they're not massively different, you know. Do I still know any most of the people of colour at our events? I know them personally by name because there are so few. Yeah, you know, I look at when it downs 200, and I've got Arnold, Sabrina, and Sonny. Um I mean, I know them personally, there's that few in the sport. But is the direction going in the right way? Yeah, it is, and and with black trail runners, it's more about the foundation level, so building the community from the ground up, getting people of colour out onto the trail full stop. We did a workshop for them, and actually, one of the people on that workshop now works on our race day staff. Um, she didn't she didn't run on trail, really, and we took her out in Wendover and she was just like, Oh my god, and I was like, Yeah, it's pretty great, right? Yeah, and she's gone from there, and now she's you know running north down side 50 this year, and the journey's that's the journey, so it will take time for that to grow at our end of the sport. But they obviously they already have their own event now. Um Black to the Trails, which they held in September, up on Dunstable Downs, they had hundreds of runners sold out, all going in the right direction, but it will take time to filter through to obviously, and I think it is a wider community situation, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00I mean, if you I'm gonna sound like the old white middle-aged man, but you get you go out into the countryside just for a walk or into the mountains for a walk, particularly in like Wales or somewhere, you don't see many people of colour is the problem, you know.
SPEAKER_03Um but if you the the run show, there were a couple of groups there um promoting at the trails, outdoors, mountain walking, whatever, within their ethnic group, you know, their community. Yeah, and that's what you need. You need some champions who are visible within those communities that then the it becomes visible that you know that community then think, hang on a minute, this isn't just for these people, this is open to me too. Yeah, um, and there's some people doing some amazing work out there um to try and you know open up these opportunities to to the different groups that are out there because they are incredible, they're life-changing things. You give someone some skills to get out on the hill, yeah, yeah, and it changes everything for them. Yeah, um, but yeah, I feel like at our end of the sport, there was a drive initially, a bit like She Races, to try and improve participation numbers, but there's also a recognition that you can't force that. No, it you've got to build the community of the ground up, really, from the lower distances first.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Uh if we move over now to uh Centurion more as a company, um you offer is it three elements to your business, is it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, there are essentially three revenue streams there's the events, the the shop, and the coaching, and then various other things that don't generate any revenue at all. You know, the podcast, for example, that we'll just do for fun. Yeah. Um
SPEAKER_00It must have a bit of a marketing element to it. Everything crosses over.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. You know, we've just had the shop down in the Archivatrician. Um, I've done a podcast about the race. Is that purely for the love of it? A little bit, is it also crossover into marketing and help the rest of the business? Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I love all of it. So it never feels necessarily like work. Work, no.
SPEAKER_00Um you you must have I mean it it's probably just happened by chance, well, not by chance, but by your efforts, but um, that you've got the dream job for an ultrarunner, in as much as it's your hobby and it's it's a business.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think so. I think it can probably look a little bit more dreamlike than more dreamlike than it is. I have to say that my ability to continue to RD hundred mile race weekends is increasingly compromised. I I personally don't think it's very sustainable. Um it batters me more and more in a way that I can't really articulate. Um you know, we're what, as you said, 12-13 years into doing hundreds, we've had four or five a year over that time. So I'm probably getting towards 60 plus hundred-mile races, and they are it's not necessarily the sleep deprivation I actually find quite easy now. Um it's the level of stress in the build-up, and then particularly handling the small hours overnight into small hours in the morning when the dropouts start coming in, and you are getting those emergency calls, and if the weather's bad, and it's taking me longer and longer to recover from them. Um, so I love all of the different parts of the business. Um, the least sustainable part is actually the race directing, and that's why I've tried to share some of the burden on the 50 miles and 50k's with incoming RDs.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah. I want to concentrate a little bit on the um shop side, if you like, uh, only because I want to get on to um how the uh manufacturers in the industry are involved with our sport. Yeah, and um I know you've got some great relationships with your particularly with us, Sportiva and and uh Salomon. Uh the do you see those as particularly um sustainable, responsibly sustainable brands? I'm thinking of the E I'm coming from the direction of being a green runner now, and where that fits in to I know I don't want to pick on those two brands particularly. I mean all brands. Uh but are they addressing the issues, do you think?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean obviously it's something I've wrestled with long and hard. Do it what are we doing here? Are we are we selling stuff to people that they don't need that's just creating more waste and you know carbon?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um the people that have been most helpful to me through the whole process of the shop are Charlotte and and Dan, who obviously closed Rerun now. But you know, Dan, as people who've listened to our podcast know Dan and I are great friends, and we will tell each other how it is and what it is. And sometimes Dan and and you know, to extent Darren and some of the others at Green Runners, they're on a on a mission with some things where I have had to say this isn't a good use of our time or direction of travel. Like the whole thing with flying, I feel, is already sorry, I'll come back to answer your question in a second, but I just down this road a minute. The whole thing with flying to races, I feel we've gone you know full out there on a limb and are sort of redressing that slightly. Yeah, Damo's a good example. There's no good saying to everybody, you don't fly to races, period. Like it's just not okay, and then have and then do it yourself. Uh and it's about and now we've reached this point where it's all in moderation. Everyone's saying try to make good decisions the most of the time, reduce your footprint, and make responsible decisions overall, and we will go in the right direction. You can't win this battle, like everyone's gonna you know create a footprint. Yeah, you can't win the battle like that. We're gonna have to you know chip away at it. That's how I feel about the shop. Yeah, so the amount of waste, particularly in returns and warranty issues and durability problems in the uh early days, was pretty horrendous. Um, we were very small back then. Like if I started the shop in 2013, and I think we you know, about 2013-14, I nearly just shut it. It was like we're doing so little here, right? But it was there as a provision to our runners that will say this is the best kit, and that is it has grown, but I'm still doing the same thing I do now. So, one of those brands that you've mentioned comes in and they come in with all their kit and all their wares and millions of products covering you know every eventuality, and I will go, I will take that waterproof jacket because in the case of Sport T, for example, it's 100% recycled, um, it's got a hydrostatic head or performance level that I know means it's a durable and be going to perform well for the runner, it's packable, it's comfortable. I take all those things in consideration and say, right, okay, what products am I going to cherry pick from each of you? And some of the brands will say you can't do that, you're gonna have to take all of this if you want to take that thing. Yeah, and we just say no thanks. Yeah, because we're a small independent shop, we don't need to do that. Um, there are still tons of issues. Yeah, I think there's a lot of virtue signalling. A lot of the bigger brands um have uh policies and the shout about things that are scratching the surface of the overall shape of the business is so transparent, especially to me because I see the behind the scenes. Yeah, we we're not interested. Yeah, I just won't touch that stuff.
SPEAKER_00I think I think what you've raised there is one is raising the consciousness about just being more uh environmentally friendly, sustainable, green, however you want to put it, yeah. Um in in as in being a consumer, like being me. And I'd much rather buy my kit off of somebody like you, who's already an ultra runner, knows what they want. Um and like you say, it's picking bits of kit that they know, you know, of uh have been uh manufactured in a more sustainable way anyway. Rather than all this stuff that's churned out online, you know, you get multiple battered all the time. I won't name the names, but uh you know, discount this, this there's always a discount, there's always um uh a reduction, and it's like how many you know, I don't want to buy a pair of trainers every week. That's the sort of market, and I think as consumers we need to be responsible as well about where we're purchasing, where we're buying, and you know, that the message you'll get back in the end if enough people um shop more responsibly over it.
SPEAKER_03I totally agree. You know, we often get customers coming here with a waterproof jacket, and they'll go, Well, this pass kit check. Oh, my jacket's leaking, you know, is it still good? Your jacket's completely fine. Spend three quid on the Grangers washing reproof, yeah, and the tapes the tape seams are all still taped. Yeah, you just need to clean it and reproof it. Yeah, now uh we got people who one particular bloke who crewed me at the art this weekend, he'll stand at the counter drinking coffee with us most of the shop home days. He just thinks I'm the worst salesman you've ever seen. I don't, I'm not comfortable selling someone a 150 quid waterproof jacket when they've brought in a perfectly serviceable waterproof jacket. So I just don't understand how you can look yourself in the mirror and do that. Yeah, um, and I think education has improved. Dan and Charlotte have done a tremendous job on making people aware of waste, yeah. It's still the trainers that are the issue. Yeah, you know, it's not like you're gonna lose a load of revenue by becoming more sustainable and focusing more on your environmental conditions. Ironically, you end up making more money. Getting rid of single-use plastic cups and single-use race markings and single-use cable ties, that's saved us thousands of pounds every year, and it's more sustainable. So I think there's some such easy wins, and it's the same in the gear area. And Patagonia obviously sort of led the way, really, right? Yeah, um, and I think their model um has hopefully more and more people adopt something similar where you're encouraged to look after it. For you know, I'm proud of wearing sports eva jackets at a 10-year-old and patched up with a waterproof patch, getting a new one each season, you know. Yeah, um, I think there's a lot of kudos in wearing cool viders. Yeah, I that being said, you know, I I set fire to my down jacket the other day to operate in the wood burner in the other room of Daytel Health and Safety, and the whole sleeve just melted. I am going to try and repair it, but that jacket's 10 years old. Has it seen its best? Yeah. Is it now relegated to garden duty?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but well, that's what that's what I do with mine. I you know, I'm a good keen gardener, so they all end up in the gardeners. You know, I've got trainers I've had I ran London Marathon in a pair in 2007, I'm using them in the garden. Yeah, special shoes to you, yeah. Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so um with that, the offerings that you have at the moment, do you see that as where the business is going to stay? You know, have you got a five-year projection of where you want to go with it?
SPEAKER_03That is a really good question, and one that don't actually often get asked. Um, I I have to reconcile the fact that I'm not it's not about me anymore. It's there are several full-time staff. We've got nine coaches, we've got um three people working on the shop, um, and then all of the race day, you know, staff who are subcontracted in. Um, a lot of people who response the centurion are responsible for putting food on the table for some of those more than others. You know, we have coaches who have just started who've got a couple of athletes, some of them are full-time. So um, it's not really again about me. Um, I feel a responsibility to make it sustainable for what we have. I do think that the event market, we know the event market is saturated, we know events are struggling to make ends meet. This is not the time to be putting on lots of new races. I don't see the offering from us growing. I see it, I will invest more in the existing events. So, for example, South Dunsway 100 joins the World Trail Majors this year, we'll get a slightly higher entrant count this year. We might grow that weekend and that event rather than putting on another race. Yeah, um, so I think if I had to guess we'd be in five years, you'll see a similar stable of events, quite possibly one or two less than we have now rather than more.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, if we do any more, yeah, I think it will be alongside of existing races. Yeah. Uh that is until I get the next idea in my head. Like winter down to 200, and we're gonna do that.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna say to you, so we're not gonna see uh Centurion backyard then or something.
SPEAKER_03I mean, you can I I'll never say never because I never said I said we'd never do a virtual event, and I said we'd never do a 200 miler, and never interested in doing a track event and look what we've done.
SPEAKER_00It'd still go in the virtual event, yeah, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03Um, I think the one area that I am interested in developing more is probably the shop, just because it's grown a lot during difficult times, which tells without us really growing our range massively, which tells me something that people need and want that service, um, and it's not tied to our events. Yeah, and from my own personal work-life balance, that's far more sustainable than putting another hundred miles on. Yeah, I just can't do it. No, um, so that's probably objection, but it's always always going to be for us work-life.
SPEAKER_00Have you have you ever struggled with um I I hear a lot of talk about like how expensive events are, and I must admit, the events, a lot of events I enter are I enter event expensive events, expecting them to be expensive, because you know, they're not little jaunts in the countryside on a on a Saturday afternoon. So um, but because the sport has grown up from mainly out of people just loving to run in the countryside, you know, amateurs just going out running, um, and it's grown organically that way, and it was all a little bit maybe hippy in the early days. Um do you think there's still an element I feel there is that people think it's expensive or or that events have got very expensive compared obviously to what they used to be when there were you know one man and his dog in a field and took your reg down and off you went. Are they is it um is it fair that argument that people still say inexpensive? I mean, as a race organiser, you would know what the the cost of these things. I mean, James has just shown me out the back of his storage area for the races, and it's ridiculous this amount of kit out there that you have to have to put these events on, and I don't think people realise.
SPEAKER_03I think races are a lot more expensive to put on than people realise. Um, and I think if you actually compensated yourself for the time that you invest into these things, you would never ever do it as you never make it work as a livelihood. There, you know, for us, it's putting three very different pieces of the puzzle together to essentially pay well, three wages. Yeah, um, everything else is you know, the subcontractor owns the majority of the money that comes in for their job, blah blah blah blah. The the car boot style races that I grew up on, where there was never a medic, there was certainly no tracking, no course markings, the checkpoints was a table under a bridge on the canal with some jelly babies, your medal was rubbish. Yeah, um, you didn't pay much money for him, but if they charged a lot for him, I mean ironically, they probably would have got the same numbers because of the same number of us looking for those things, but I mean it was terrible, and there are still some terrible races out there from that regard, all right. Um but do they have like a like a history, a legacy? I mean, it's a bit like a long fell race, like yeah, as a runner myself, I don't want anything off the organizer. I really just want to run the course and experience the adventure. I don't need any of that stuff, yeah. Um but then the need for safety and being responsible to the entrance has increased. So tracking and medical costs and insurance and safety teams are they those things are extremely expensive. They are the most expensive things together with land use.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um I was gonna touch land use actually, that must be you know, landowner. It depends on who you're talking to.
SPEAKER_03I mean, we you deal with the national trust, yeah. You're gonna spend thousands where you could talk to um you know a local landowner who's sympathetic and really you know loves the community and gets it and charges you a fraction of the cost, right? Um, but might not be in the right place. Yeah. So uh but everyone wants their pound of flesh, and the bigger you look, the more flesh they want. Um and for us, it's like it's trying to say somebody, look, I know there's an all singing all dancing website, I know it looks like we've got tons of staff and and you know, big numbers and very professional, and it is all those things, but the margin is not yeah, yeah, you're not we're not making millions of pounds off, we're not even turning over millions of pounds, yeah. Um, and I think uh even at the top end of the sport, you know, I consider Shane and Aria to be um kind of the most professional outfit, really, in some of the biggest races in the UK. Um, you are Shane how difficult it still is. You know, and if it's like that at the top, then it's not gonna be much easier for everybody else. And then you it is tiring. You've really then start to think, do I actually want to keep doing this? Like, and obviously I do, otherwise I'd have stopped it. You know, things keep drawing you back, but offset that. And don't get me wrong, I'm not pleading poverty. We do fine, yeah, but um, it is very expensive to organise a decent race these days, that is for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think people, I mean, certainly for me, I'd prepare to pay. I mean, because right from the start, you made the sport accessible in as much as it always used to be map reading and compasses, and you know, off you go, find your own way type, and and you you use marked trails, you mark the trails, and then obviously GP GPS has helped now, but it's made it much more accessible, and then people have to pay for that accessibility, I think. That you just want to rock up, it's all organised for you. You know, you hear people like these toilets, that toilet, this sort of provision, that sort of provision. You know, it's in fact, what is your biggest peeve as a race director?
SPEAKER_03I don't think people appreciate how many free people are in our our events who haven't paid for their entry. Um, we've got 105 free volunteer places at the South Townsway 100 this year. Okay, that's in one event. So I think what they do, people are often a little bit guilty of going, oh, there's 500 runners times 215 pound entry fee. Yeah, so the gross revenue of this event is that, and they jot a few numbers down a bit of paper. My god, they must be making yeah. Firstly, a hundred of those people haven't paid anything. Secondly, 20% of all your gross revenue goes straight to the tax man because almost none of the expenses for the race are that are vatable. Yeah, so you're basically giving away four you've got 40% less revenue than people think you're getting before you've even done a sum about the costs. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, so I I think it's a it's it's not their fault, that it's just not visible.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's what I'm trying to get out of this the chance to say what it's to unpick it a bit.
SPEAKER_03Well, I used to I started off, yeah. At first race said we did not-for-profit. I think I charged 85 quid for the 100 miler. Yeah, and a local bloke took me to the cleaners on a run as well for him. He was like, How can you justify this? Blah blah blah. I literally broke the cost down, wrote everything out, and showed him that we're gonna lose four grand. Yeah, and he promptly shut up, right? Um, but I still get the impression there are people out there now who think the same, and that's fine. But my point to them is if you don't perceive you're getting value from an event, you won't do that event. That event. Yeah if a race is filling up, people are getting the value from it, and you and I both know more than most. You're the value you're you you're um getting from an event is almost in the lead up to that thing. It's all the planning and the wrecking, the foresight, and the information from the organiser, that's where the value is, more so than just the direct race. So it's the whole experience, right? Um, but I do still think there's there's space for everybody from car boot, super cheap entry, very low support, you know, literally like off you go, good luck, through to a rear where you've got massive camps and incredible catering and everything in between. Um yeah, each of the own.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, good. So I think I've covered most of that. I'd like to go back to James the runner. What's next for you?
SPEAKER_03Uh well, you one of your um one of your past exploits that Northern Traverse is next. Um I've I've definitely gravitated to the 200-ish and had a really great experience at Touch Day on, which I still think is the best race I've ever done. Yeah, um, enjoyed enjoyed this the misery of the spine. Um, Northern Traverse, more runnable, which suits probably suits me better in terms of like a competitions point of view. As you've said before, magical point-to-point route. I I mean, I've always been a massive lover of Wainwright's books. Um, I've been up all of those mountains, I've you know, ran the Bob Graham, um, take started taking the kids up those hills, and coast to coast routes not yeah, I've done half of it, but I want to see the other half. And there's an opportunity to race there. It wasn't really on my radar until long ago, and then I thought, you know what, that's kind of perfect for that. Yeah, and then um I'll try my hand in in the lotteries for um TDG and uh and see what happens with the spider entries that go.
SPEAKER_00But that'd be your third time on TGG.
SPEAKER_03It will be, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, that's another one. Bucket list.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, if I was if if I could say to you do one more race, it would it would be too much. It'd be that one, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay. I might have to do that. So are you done with the track 24 stuff?
SPEAKER_03Oh, good question. I was I was done, and then I thought, you know what, I'd never done one in the super shoes. Um I qualified and ran for GB wearing a pair of Sportiva Helios, which are a two mil drop trail shoe, uh, just to say performance wise, they weren't optimal. So I thought I'd just do one in the shoes, and I did that at Batsy in September. I had terrible stomach problems, very disappointing. Really, but again, I don't want to do it unless I can train the way I used to, right? Because, like the marathon, I've got a number, you know, I've run X number. If I can't beat that number, what am I doing then? Yeah, I've done 13 of the things. I'm not going to learn something new about that format.
SPEAKER_00But you're not going to get that training doing northern traverse spine TGG type racing.
SPEAKER_03I think I've almost started hiding by doing these type of races. I know that sounds weird, but I know I can get through them on a lot less volume, ironically. Right. Because of all the other skills I have, race management, um, you know, knowing psychologically how to prepare and get to the end. And and honestly, just a hell of a lot of hiking. There's something that's absolutely just brutal about the whole 24 hours running non-stop on a hard surface. Just nothing that hurts more than that, trust me. You know, I've far better shape at the end of the spine than I am after a 24-hour track record. So I've kind of done that format. But when you look at the GB team and the average age being mid-40s, uh, there are a couple of younger ones now, but I'm still four years off, you know, potentially running at my biggest distance. So I'm not gonna say never again, but I I think yeah, it's unlikely. I think it's unlikely.
SPEAKER_00What about you? Is that something you fancy? Is it out there? I it is out there that definitely well only because I'm ticking all the boxes at my age, and I I want to try all the formats or say that I've done all the formats, so yeah, definitely track 24 is one of them. Track 24 is in the UK would you recommend the transcendental?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, definitely. Like the the vibe, people are like why. I was on stage at the run show a couple weeks ago. Sophie Power and I were chatting about 24s and people going, why? So with that magic of the last four hours when everyone's just been through all of that together, it's like this wave of like uplifting positive energy between all the people that have helped, all the people still on the track, urging each other on, whether they're first or last or whatever. Yeah, um, and you can all see each other and you're all in it together. It's not like the end of the arc where I'm just struggling myself over a few climbs just to cross the finish line and go straight to the bar. It's it's you're in it together, you don't get it anywhere else. That is magic.
SPEAKER_00I think that's the I entered Sufford backyard, right? Uh which I'm doing in June, and I think that's one thing that struck me with that. You're always you're in the lead of the race every hour. Yeah, that's what I loved about it. Yeah. And and so you are all I know they people you know drop like flies eventually, and that's the whole point. But yeah, yeah. I mean, Maz is just a genius, a creative genius.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, the stuff he's come up with in his time, like any one of those ideas changed the sport forever, and he's got like five of them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's just until you said his name just then. I hadn't realised I'm sitting opposite a guy who's done Barclay. Done Barclay. I didn't say finished, but yeah.
SPEAKER_03That was something else, yeah. And one that I would definitely jump at the chance to go back to. Um but this is a lot of um it's so hard with Barclay because I you know, once you're in not the family of it, but behind the scene of it, you get to know all of the inner workings of, and there's cons around it that you get and receive, and you can be part of it still, but not be there if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, I know it's all say that stuff. Stuff, yeah, it's all so it's not that I won't ever go back. People always say, Are you gonna go back? And so it's not my choice. Yeah, will I apply to go back? Yes, I will, but ultimately there's a myriad of other things that need to line up for me to get back to Frozen Ed. Um I do hope, I do hope to one day because we we yes, I did drop. Would I have finished highly unlikely? Were we unfortunate? The weather was I mean, just I mean, Carol made it made it out for a couple of books a loop four. So I think we had one fun run finishing. It was without doubt the worst weather that they've had, and yeah, it's just a snowstorm, and uh it was so dangerous, you know. You because because you are in the woods with no electronic devices and several hours from camp, you simply can't go until you can't go anymore. You need to make the decision to quit a long way before you've reached the line.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, or you're not coming home.
SPEAKER_03Well, then there's a reason then that the the the uh selection policy is kind of self-fulfilling because I know how serious it is. There are only a small group of people that if they ask me how am I going to get into Barclay that I'd actually tell because I I I'm not don't want someone to be in that situation who can't deal with it. Um it's the reason that JK and Damo are good at that stuff because they know what it's like to be 230 miles into the spine and having to push, you know, where that line is. Yeah, um great event though.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. The great thing about this sport is there's still so much out there, you know.
SPEAKER_03It never ends because it's the broadest thing going. I'm still motivated to see how fast I can run 50k on the road, you know. So it's just different. Everything is different. Every time, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Great. Well, it's been great chatting with you, James. So thanks so much for uh saying that you come on here and help with the podcast. It's been a pleasure, I enjoy listening to it, and um always yeah, just and and a big thanks on behalf of all those centurions out there, yeah, and the and the community and everything you've done for the sport so far.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thank you all for the support. Appreciate it. Thanks, James. Cheers.
SPEAKER_00Bloody highstation.