Ep 42 - Storming Round with Hannah and Lizzie

At the end of 2024 Lizzie Gatherer and Hannah Hall ran through the last two named storms of the year, achieving epic results. In this episode Kev discusses these races and performances, as well as the continuing upward rise of women’s participation and achievements in long distance Ultra racing.  

https://www.canarytrailevents.com/copthorneresults2024

https://ukultra.eventrac.co.uk/e/winter-on-the-downs-10151/results

Aid Station website where you can find the episodes or leave comment https://www.aidstation.co.uk/

Please feel free to give the show some feedback on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/aid-station/id1549735359

Transcript

SPEAKER_08 0:33

Here we are, episode forty two of Aid Station. It's january thirteenth, uh, twenty twenty five, and we've torn ourselves away from the spine race stop watching which is going on at the moment, and they'll be about thirty hours into that epic in the snow at the moment. Um and I've mentioned that because of uh horrendous weather conditions. And uh I have got with me uh Lizzie Gatherer and Hannah Hall. And we haven't done this since July 2022, which is daft. I mean obviously we see each other all the time, but um when we reviewed the Centurion uh South Downs Way 100. So um so I've asked Lizzie and Hannah to come in today because at the end of last year they both ran through incredibly stormy conditions. Um Lizzie ran through Storm Burt, which doesn't sound very dangerous. Sounds quite friendly, isn't it? Yes, sounds friendly. And Hannah ran through Storm Dara, which sounds like an Irishman full of guinness on a night out, which sounds a bit more dangerous. Um and seriously, uh I was so impressed with both of you and the fact that the race has even happened at all. Um I thought it'd be great to get you in to talk about running in those sorts of conditions, um, and also how great it is that the women seem to tough these things out when the men don't, and we'll get into that a bit more as we go on. So, Lizzie, as yours was the first race, which was around twenty odd of November, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_06 2:34

Something like that in November, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 2:36

So do you want to fill us in on what that was about, why you entered?

SPEAKER_06 2:40

Uh so it's Copthorne Races, um, which so it's the second year that I've done it. They have four usually four distances, this year they had five, so they've got the 50k, 50 mile, 100k, 100 mile. Um so last year I was lucky enough to um win the ladies' race. I say last year we're in 25 now. In 2023 I was lucky enough to win the ladies' race. Um so I wanted to better that in 24 and try and improve on my time, uh, but obviously didn't factor in a massive storm. Um but it's uh yeah, it's 10.3 mile laps around Box Hill in Surrey. Uh it includes the stepping stones. Um, but for my race, I think by the fourth lap the stepping stones were underwater, so then I had to go onto the long course. So it's just ever so slightly longer. Um but um I think overall it was like maybe 107 miles, perhaps. But um it was good. I enjoyed it, even though there was a storm. Yeah, so um I think I mean it wasn't a massive field, it was about I think there was sixteen or seventeen starters.

SPEAKER_08 3:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 3:50

Although actually there might have been sixteen, seventeen on the start list, and then maybe a couple less than that showed up. It was yeah, it was a small field. Last year was a small field as well, actually. But there was more women in it this year than there were last, I believe.

SPEAKER_08 4:06

Right. So before the race, obviously Stormbird was forecast. What were you thinking?

SPEAKER_06 4:14

Uh I wasn't thinking anything, actually. Uh you must have been on the floor. Whenever I always see well, and I always see Hannah for a massage. Um ideally every week for three weeks before a race. And Hannah always says to me, Have you looked at the forecast? And I always say no. And then and then I get home from the massage and then I look. Um because I think, oh, maybe I should. Um I tend to look maybe the day before. Um I think I was aware of the storm, but I mean the the weather last the the year before that I did it, the weather was so incredibly cold. Um, and because of the nature of the event, you've got like the start-finish, like the village hall at the beginning, so you can have as much stuff with you as you like. So I'm definitely an overpacker. There's no harm if if you've you know, if you can bring all of your entire running wardrobe, then why not? Um so so I knew I'd have I had all of my clothes with me. Um so uh and I actually was a little bit unwell um just before the race, the three days before the race I wasn't very well, so I actually was not really thinking about the race. I wasn't even sure I'd make it to the start line, to be honest. Um I was just grateful to be there on the day um with every single item of clothing that I owned.

SPEAKER_08 5:31

So when did the weather change into the really high winds?

SPEAKER_06 5:35

So we started um I remember in at the start debating whether to start in a windproof or waterproof, but the weather did start it started raining, so I did start out in a waterproof jacket. Um and I think I put my waterproof trousers on maybe after two laps, perhaps. Um certainly by the fourth lap, the stepping stones were underwater. Um so I think lap three, the weather really I think the first two laps the ground was quite good, and then from lap three onwards, um it was really, really boggy and just got progressively worse and worse. Um it was just constant wet. Um, I think the ground was more of a problem than the wind because of the the courses, there's quite a lot of trees there. Um so I felt fairly protected from the wind. There's one place, I think it's called the Donkey Field. There's one place at the top of Box Hill that's really exposed. Um, but I was worried about the sound, certainly at night time, the sound that some of the trees were making. When I spent a lot of time on my own and the creaking of the trees was a little bit unnerving because sometimes I did feel like maybe one's gonna fall down. Um, but that just actually made me run a bit quicker to the forest, so so maybe maybe not a bad thing.

SPEAKER_08 6:55

Yeah, that's part of it that I thought was from a race director's point of view, not that I've ever been one, but the the risk uh involved in uh making sure a race goes ahead in those conditions with trees around is quite um I don't know if you were thinking of that when you were going round. Do you ever think are they gonna pull a plug on it?

SPEAKER_06 7:20

Um I think I know Alan from the RD Allen, I know him from last year, and um I just feel like he's a sort of guy, you know, he'd made the decision to stick with the race and he would would stick with the race unless he really felt there was a genuine risk to runners. Um I really trust him and his decision. Um and you know, throughout the course of the race, like there were sort of branches, yeah, you know, the the the normal like small branches and twigs and stuff everywhere, but no, like uh I think there was one sort of small tree down, but that was already down. Uh so yeah, I think he I because I did say to him at the end of the race, did you were you confident with your decision of putting the race on? Did you think you were gonna pull it? And he said he had no doubt in his mind. So he obviously had checked the forecast um um checked course and he felt confident, so I felt confident with his decision.

SPEAKER_08 8:23

Now that's great. So when this race had quite a big attrition rate, which we'll get on to, when did they start dropping out? What was that?

SPEAKER_06 8:33

Um I actually had no clue as to who had dropped out and how many, and I wasn't aware probably about until lap eight. Um I think people I think the night time, I think as the storm worsened and as night I think there's always dropouts overnight because people some people do find it really difficult running through the dark, and certainly through those weather conditions. Um I'm actually not sure how and when people dropped out, to be honest. Um, but I do know I was told afterwards, I I believe all four women were the ones that lasted the longest.

SPEAKER_08 9:09

Right.

SPEAKER_06 9:10

Which I'm very proud of.

SPEAKER_08 9:12

And you outlasted all of them. Yeah. Because you were the only finisher.

SPEAKER_06 9:16

I actually thought I was because I knew there were four women, I thought I was the last woman. Because when in my experience before, when you're racing, if you are a podium, people will tell you every time you see a marshal, they'll say, Oh, well done, third lady, well done, second lady, whatever. No one had said that to me, so I thought I was the last woman. And then I think it was Lapate. Um, the one of the marshals was like jumping up and down with excitement. He said, 'I've got great news for you.' And I was like, Oh, really? What is it? And he said, Um, he said, 'You're you're first.' And I was like, Oh wow, first lady. He said, No, no, no, you're first, you're race leader. Um, the the guy that was in front of you is currently having a nap in the hall. So I was like, Oh, okay. So, so I think by that point, um, I think there might have been five of us left in the because I'm I'm pretty sure he went before the other women did. Um, I think there might have been five of us in the race at that point. Uh but that was quite, yeah, that was lap uh eight maybe.

SPEAKER_08 10:15

So yeah, quite quite so yeah, there was um So you still had another twelve laps to go.

SPEAKER_06 10:21

Your maths is terrible.

SPEAKER_08 10:23

Terrible, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. It's ten laps, isn't it?

SPEAKER_06 10:25

Yeah, it's ten laps, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 10:27

So because that's the 200 barley, obviously. Because I joined you. Yeah, you did join me. You did nine and ten. Yeah, yeah. Okay. God, it was a long way. A long way to carry two crumpets. Yeah, yeah, that was the other thing. Um I was in forced to carry two crumpets round on the last. Which I ate one surreptitiously because Lizzie obviously wasn't going to. But we got one round.

SPEAKER_05 10:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 10:58

So, congratulations, you were the not only the winner, but the last person standing.

SPEAKER_06 11:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 11:05

So brilliant.

SPEAKER_06 11:07

Thank you.

SPEAKER_08 11:07

Especially through all that. Hannah. How about you? Same sort of thing. Like, I'll ask you this time about how far out you started looking at the weather conditions.

SPEAKER_03 11:20

Well, as Lizzie's already said, I think we have a slightly I'm probably a bit more anal in my approach. Um, uh, and lots of people have been messaging me worried about me running in a storm because it was quite a big storm. Yeah. Um so I think I spent the race started on a Friday lunchtime. I think Wednesday I spent the whole day worrying about being too cold and wet and needing more kit. And then Thursday I spent the whole day worrying about it being cancelled. So it was um if it had gone to an amber weather warning, they would have had to cancel. I presume that sort of licked into the race insurance and things. Um, and it was amber slightly further west, so kept checking the Met office to see where that boundary was between the yellow and amber weather warnings. Um, but obviously, if it's not safe to run, then no matter how much you want to run, you're not gonna go go out there, so you've got to respect the process. Um so mostly was just really grateful to be on the start line, and actually at the start line, Neil, the race director, told us all that they had actually cancelled the race the day before, uh, not because of the weather so much as the fact that the race headquarters was going to be a marquee, and the marquee company had cancelled on them, understandably, and they couldn't find another venue. So he had spent the whole of the day before trying to find a different venue without much success and had internally cancelled the race and then was about to let everybody else, uh all the athletes, know. And uh Village Hall got back to him and said, You can have the hall, not for all the time you need it, but you can have the hall for some of it. Uh so we were really lucky to get to race. Um I think as you as you said earlier, I appreciate this must just be a massive, massive ball ache for race directors, yeah. Not only just taking the responsibility of the decision, but making sure everyone's safe and putting everything in place that you need to. So, yeah, big big shout out to all the race directors there.

SPEAKER_08 13:11

Yeah, he told me that he hadn't slept for about three nights.

SPEAKER_03 13:14

I mean, you could tell. I think he looked more tired than I did by the end.

SPEAKER_08 13:19

Right, I'm here with Neil, the um UK Ultras. Yeah. RD for the race on the winter on the downs. Yeah. Tell us about it, Neil, because it's been a bit epic.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Yeah, it was a crazy week, really. Um started off, you know, we we knew the the the bad weather was coming. Um beginning of this week, and it you know, just constantly looking at the weather, and it you know, it was good one day and it was bad the next day. Sure. Um it was just a continual battle the whole week of whether it was gonna go ahead or not. And um, but you know, eventually we we made the decision that all the runners had paid a lot of money to travel down here and stay in hotels and entered the race, so we just thought it was right that we put it on for them. We we knew it was gonna be really tough. Yeah. Um I think it was the right decision, just about.

SPEAKER_08 14:20

Well, it the feedback's been well. I've been standing here and they've just been coming in, and it has been, they've been congratulating you on putting it on for them. And I'd be the same as an athlete, you pay you money, you want to. I mean, obviously, as an RD, it's a difficult one though, isn't it? For from the safety aspect.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Yeah, it was so tough. It was it was really 50-50, you know. Um and like I say, that whole thing of they've paid so much money and they've put so much time and effort into it to to not let it go ahead would have been wrong. But it was so close, you know, it was it was a really tough decision. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 14:57

Um but yeah, because you you had to move the race start and finish, haven't you?

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Yeah, so the two days before the race, um it was all looking quite good. Then the marquee company said that they couldn't come anymore. Um just because of the high winds, and you know that marquee is the sort of the whole hub of the race, really, a registration and holds all of our equipment. And is that normally down in Eastbourne? Yeah, on the seafront in a place called Helen Garden. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so um, yeah, which is Mayhem, really, um, trying to find a new place, and yeah, luckily I know the sort of manager of this place, and it just sort of came together. Um and you know, it's it's really it the the course runs right along here anyway. So yeah, it's right on the reading. It was ideal, yeah. Obviously, we had to. I think actually everyone was really happy because the hundred miler was actually 103 miles, right? And uh 55 miles, 55, so they actually dropped down to 100 miles and uh and and 50 miles, oh okay, which I think was good for everyone, you know. Um a good hour less of running, probably for everyone.

SPEAKER_08 16:10

And and another thing that struck me is that you had we've had a female winner, female winner, amazing, amazing, and I think there's um three females in the top six.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Yep, yeah, yeah. So and they it they looked really good the whole way through. The the the lead lady was amazing. I mean, so yeah, our first ever female winner, which is which is great, isn't it?

SPEAKER_08 16:31

Yeah, absolutely brilliant. Yeah, I think the yeah, they they get going, don't they? Even more in the worst conditions, they're they're always the ones that are there sticking around brilliant. Yeah, now well amazing, not for me to say, but on behalf of the athletes, well done, and uh for getting it done, and I'm glad that hopefully you'll have uh better weather next year. Yeah have you ever had a frost event or you know, like a real cold one?

SPEAKER_00 16:56

So we last year was the first time we put it on, which was the 55 miler only. Oh, okay, and that was it was a really nice day, sunny, but it was very misty, and it was like minus one, and so the runners had icicles on their eyelashes. But lovely up on the downs, beautiful, yeah. But you know, the ground was frozen, so not ideal. Yeah, and then today just completely the opposite. So next year, hopefully.

SPEAKER_08 17:21

Yeah, but that's it, isn't it? With a winter event, you're gonna get what you get.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Yeah, no. Um I think today was a bit too brutal. Right, um, you know.

SPEAKER_08 17:31

Yeah, but I mean it well, considering the Met office we're putting out like red warnings for the wind, yeah, and in the west, and yeah, like all the rail networks and everything's been out, so you've done an amazing job to get it done.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Um really tough decision, but yeah, better luck next year.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Thanks, buddy. Well done. No problem, mate.

SPEAKER_03 17:53

Yeah, it's a it's a lot to take on, isn't it?

SPEAKER_08 17:55

Um so tell us about your race. Uh were you expecting the worst? Yeah, we obviously turned up prepared.

SPEAKER_03 18:03

I definitely definitely mentally prepared myself for it being pretty bad. Um and then we got down there and it was like blue-blue skies, perfectly calm. Uh it looks completely impossible that there was going to be a storm later in the day. Um, so we started at midday, and you had about sort of four and a half hours of uh daylight. Um I said the weather was lovely, so uh that was nice, easy running, all the views out over the Seven Sisters. Uh, and then the rain was forecast to start at about six o'clock in the evening, and then the wind at about seven o'clock. And we were running, it was a circular loop as we were running out west. So we were going to be running into the storm, and the race director had emailed us uh the couple of days before and said, basically, if you can get to halfway when you're going to turn around, then at least you'll know your storm is sort of behind you. So I had in my head that probably the toughest bit would be between sort of seven o'clock and getting to halfway. Um I'm not sure if that was the toughest bit, it was pretty brutal. Uh but you could definitely feel the change as we turned and running sideways into the storm. Um a lot of people dropped out at halfway, which I was quite surprised about. Um and then yeah, it was everything you'd expect from running in a storm, it was pretty brutal.

SPEAKER_08 19:24

Yeah, because it it was I think I mean there were places that recorded 70 miles an hour at some point.

SPEAKER_03 19:30

Yeah, I mean it was knocking knock you off your feet kind of weather. We were uh very fortunate that um it was mostly open downs. We weren't no cliff edges apart from the very early bit of the race before the storm hit. Um we had a few short bits through woods, but I would not have wanted to be one running in woods for long on that race. There were huge trees down. Um so I think the fact that it was nearly all open downs was a blessing, but it did mean you got the full the full brunt of the wind.

SPEAKER_07 19:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:59

Um and it was uh it was a battle to stay upright on your feet. Um yeah, I went for a a massage the week after recovery massage the week after, and uh the therapist said to me, Oh, you're you know, presumably we're doing legs, are we? And I said, No, can you actually just do all my back and my lats and my core because that was the most sore thing, and I think that was from battling to stay upright uh for such a long time. But it was good fun.

SPEAKER_08 20:25

Well, tell us about it, because I was there when you came in at the finish, and one of your issues was that you couldn't see or couldn't see out of one eye either.

SPEAKER_03 20:33

Yeah, I lost I lost the um I lost most of the sight in my left eye, probably from started about maybe mile 65. Um and I wasn't sure I'd never done a winter hundred before, so I'd never been on a head torch for that long. I wasn't sure if it was from being on a head torch for so long. Um I don't it probably should have worried me more than it did. Um I'd taken eye drops and spare contact lenses and none of that had sort of helped. Uh, but by mile sort of 80, I really couldn't see out of my left eye at all. It was like looking through a very opaque film, and then my right eye started to go, so I couldn't see the uh way markers at all um until I was right next to them. Um I could see the ground under my feet. Um yeah, so I by by about mile ninety, I was thinking I really need to have finished the race because I not couldn't be able to see. Uh but sort of managed not to overthink it, I guess. Um, and then about what maybe two, three hours after the race, it was back to normal. So I've had a Google. I can't find any information on it. I think it might have been just the wind abrasion.

SPEAKER_08 21:38

Yeah. Was it on particularly on one side, I presume?

SPEAKER_03 21:40

It was on my left side, which was the side when we're coming when kind of the wind was coming across us when we were running sideways into it, was the side the wind would have been coming into. Yeah. Um but no, never experienced anything like that, and hope I don't again. But happily a temporary state.

SPEAKER_08 21:55

And in the middle of all that you were racing?

SPEAKER_03 21:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 22:00

I mean As opposed to getting round.

SPEAKER_03 22:02

Yeah. I I've actually had I just really enjoyed the race and actually felt felt pretty good. I think I um made good decisions on managing myself and my kits. Um so that definitely helped. Uh it was very boggy and muddy in places. Um but yeah, I think I I it's a race gear kicked in probably kind of miles 75-ish or so when I was sort of creeping up the field, um, and then past the lady who had been in third position. Um so then it was sort of game one trying to race for a podium finish to the end. But at that point the wind was directly behind us. Um I've never run in anything like it. It was it was brilliant fun, but uh also quite challenging. It was absolutely tiffing it down with rain. Um the wind would just knock you off your feet. But if Strava could record 10 metre PVs, I'd have got about a hundred of them. The wind would just push you up a hill and then try and push you over. So I think I was alternatingly swearing and screaming with uh with exhilaration across the South Downs, but I did really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_08 23:13

Weird thing where you lift your feet off the ground and you actually travel.

SPEAKER_03 23:18

Yeah, and it would yeah, it would not like knock you sideways or knock you, yeah. So it was I said I was definitely running at a funny angled, kind of leaning, trying to stay upright. I think if if you were not feeling good by that point and you were walking, it would have been absolutely brutal. Um but I was fortunate my legs were feeling pretty good, so I was just like, I just keep peddling the legs, and the wind was actually pushing us to the finish, so yeah, it's my fastest 20-mile finish of a hundred mile. Oh, really? Was it? Yeah, by some because even even the substantial hills, um I was sort of running up them because it had a 65 mile an hour window right behind you.

SPEAKER_08 23:55

Yeah, that's a nice way to end a hundred.

SPEAKER_03 23:57

It was, it was pretty funny.

SPEAKER_08 24:00

Good job it wasn't the other way.

SPEAKER_03 24:02

Yeah, yeah, it would have been really, really, really tough. Um so no, not not a bad way to finish.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

I've never run uphill at Mar 95. We had the wind right behind us.

SPEAKER_07 24:59

Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

I just concentrate people. Right hand.

SPEAKER_08 25:19

And so you ended third lady, was it?

SPEAKER_03 25:22

Third lady, uh so the ladies did absolutely amazing movie outright winner by uh over 20 minutes, I think, was a lady. Um there were three ladies in the top six, so second lady was also third overall. Um, and then I was third lady and sixth overall.

SPEAKER_08 25:41

There were actually four ladies in the top eight as well.

SPEAKER_03 25:45

There were four ladies in the top eight, and half of the top ten were female. Uh interestingly, also 73% of the ladies entered finished, and only half of the men.

SPEAKER_08 25:55

Wow. Yeah, that says a lot. Yeah. That says a lot when the going gets tough. The women get going. Um that's that's brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 26:07

Yeah, I think that was a good rest. I enjoyed it a lot.

SPEAKER_08 26:10

Well, especially as it was your first um winter hundred. It was, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:18

Yeah, and I was nervous about it. I'd be nervous about the dark anyway, um, without the storm. Um but actually I I loved being out in the night and I was by myself um pretty much most of the night and just yeah, really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_08 26:31

Yeah. So bring on more spine race, he said. So let's talk about um women because uh uh I I I don't know, I get this feeling like there's this whole thing building, that there's been some really good results uh lately. Um I I always think that um the whole thing became a bit of a watershed when Jasmine Paris ran up the spine and broke the record by anybody by twelve hours and then obviously went on to finish at Barclays. Um and I you know that's incredibly inspirational. And then we had Beth Pascal, she won the Western States, the women's Western States, and there's been this more and more seems to be building, not just at the front end, but women uh finishing higher upfields, finishing tough races, which is fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 27:36

So um I really wanted to expand on that and what inspiration you've had out of it, um, either of you or I think a lot of it, I think your your starting point has to be getting equity and participation. And I think that's one of the things that's so lovely about someone like Jasmine is yeah, she has a a full-time job and a young family. Um so for for lots of us to see her out there doing it, I think it just allows other women to think it doesn't matter if you're a mum or if you've got a full-time job, actually these things are still attainable, and we have a we have a right to want to be on a start line and do something big and crazy, um which I think maybe women don't always think there's kind of space in their lives to to do things like that. Um so I think she's been a brilliant role model from that point of view. And and then I think there's you know, have been a lot of race directors who've sort of striving really hard um to encourage female participation in races.

SPEAKER_06 28:41

Um I think the she runs movement has been really, really good, hasn't it? And then you've got like companies like Pegasus, Eris and Keris who have Pegasus, um, they do wild horse. Um they really welcome the female runners, and you know, they they I think what one of the big things is the cut-off times with their races. So some of the races have no cutoff times, and then wild horse, they've worked out the cutoff times so you could essentially walk the entire thing and you can still finish. So I think their slowest finisher has still been within two hours of cutoff. Um so I think cut-off times play a big factor in it. And in fact, um I noticed GB Ulters have extended their beacons weigh 100k cut-off by I think by two hours. Yeah, so that will I think that will encourage more women, and then you've got like there's more female race directors now. I mean, Ellen's had limitless trials forever, but um people like her I find really inspiring. I think it's really nice to have a woman at the at the head. Or have a woman, I should say not women.

SPEAKER_08 29:41

Yeah, in the podcast I did with James Elson, we discussed this and about where the women RDs were. Um so I'm I'm interested because I don't know any, so it's nice to hear. Did you say that was with Pegasus?

SPEAKER_06 29:54

Um so Reed, I think, yeah, Reese and Keris uh they have Pegasus. I think Reese is probably the I mean they're husband and wife, so I I I guess it's equal. But but like with Ellen, I mean she she's she turns up on start lines everywhere. Like the amount of times I've seen her at other races and she's remembered me, she's recognized me, remembered my name. So who is Ellen? So Ellen says she's limit limitless trades. Oh right, okay. Um she just seems to be uh you know, she sent me dragon mail on Dragon's Back as well, but she seems to be there. If if you have entered one of her races, whether you're male or female, she will support you. So it doesn't matter what race you're in. If she finds out you're doing it, she'll send you a message or you know, even turn up and cheer you on, which I think is really, really nice. And and like with Wild, with Pegasus and Wild Horse, Reese gives you um he actually phones every single person before the race to ask them how they're getting on, and it's just it just makes it really, really welcoming. Um which I think for some uh I don't want to say women, but yeah, for for every it's just nice to be welcomed, isn't it? So whatever sex you are.

SPEAKER_08 31:01

I think one of the key sorry Hannah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 31:04

If I look back to I think it was 2008 when I did UTMB and I went to register, and the guy handing out the stuff didn't want to give me a tracker, he was adamant he was gonna give it to my boyfriend who was with me at the time and not racing. Uh and he kept saying and I was like, yeah. And he just assumed he was going to give the tracker and the race entry to the man I was with. Um so I think we're coming we've come a long way.

SPEAKER_08 31:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:32

I'd like to think that doesn't happen anymore.

SPEAKER_08 31:34

No. So when was that, 18?

SPEAKER_03 31:36

200 oh no, 2008.

SPEAKER_08 31:38

Oh, eight, sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, we've come a long way over since then.

SPEAKER_06 31:43

Do you remember at Fakham Backyard? They ever um not the event crew, but the competitors thought you were racing, not me. Do you remember that?

SPEAKER_08 31:53

They thought I was like, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 31:56

I think because you had a centurion t-shirt.

SPEAKER_08 31:58

I had a centurion t-shirt on, which yeah, maybe.

SPEAKER_06 32:00

You obviously look more like a runner than I did.

SPEAKER_08 32:05

Yeah, well Yeah, I don't know. I mean that's a I I guess that's people's mental yeah, attitudes, isn't it, towards it. I think one of the key things you said there, which I really liked, was the um how important the cutoffs are. Even if you get people in male or female that can walk it and then find that actually you know I can go quicker or I like doing this, but then they're more encouraged to take part. And that's then cut comes back to what Hannah's saying about getting the numbers in and getting parity with a male entry. But yeah, so the yeah, cut-off times are really important, I think.

SPEAKER_06 32:49

And I think there's a race I'd like to do, but the cutoff is I could do it, but I could do it if everything went my way and went really, really well. Um and it doesn't really allow me a buffer, so I haven't We're not talking about the Barclay now. Um no, no, no. Um but yeah, no, there's um I don't want to name and shame, but because there's a re there I there's also a reason why the cutoff is is what it is. But but it just pr shows to myself that cutoffs are actually important because I have looked at that cutoff and I think I in theory I could do it, but I don't know if I want to enter because that's like a lot of effort to run all those miles to then to then get timed out. Um actually you say dragons back, that's uh they're tight cutoffs, aren't they?

SPEAKER_08 33:37

Do you as women enter in races, do you look at the field entry before if they're available? Or does that do you just enter because it's a race you want to do?

SPEAKER_06 33:47

I think I enter for the views, the journey, the scenery. Uh if a start list is available, I will look at it, but then that's more to see if I've got anyone that I know that I can chat to. Right. Um I don't think I look at it as a competitive point of view.

SPEAKER_08 34:03

Right.

SPEAKER_06 34:04

It's probably better, isn't it, not knowing.

SPEAKER_08 34:07

Yeah, I just wondered whether there was a sort of more comfort of the amount of women that are in the field that you think.

SPEAKER_06 34:12

Yeah, I I think I sometimes take great pride if if it's a really small women's field, I take a lot of pride in that, and I feel that I'm representing women and it's really important that I finish. Um, but then when there's a lot of women, I'm also like, yay, there's loads of us, this is brilliant, you know.

SPEAKER_08 34:30

So um Were you in an all-female tent at Dragons Back?

SPEAKER_06 34:34

I was, yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 34:36

I bet that was a load of fun then, was it? Or did you not see so many?

SPEAKER_06 34:39

I don't know. I was so slow. I was first on the course, last out. Everyone was asleep when I got into the tent.

SPEAKER_05 34:45

So I didn't even meet two of my tent mates I never met, so okay.

SPEAKER_06 34:51

Couldn't comment. No, well I I did meet some of them, they were very nice to the one, but I didn't get to chat with them as well. Oh right.

SPEAKER_08 34:57

I just wondered whether, yeah, that would I could imagine that being a fun thing to do.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

Yeah.

unknown 35:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 35:05

Or you have to get into a tent full of slower people, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 35:10

Um I often have a look out of the curiosity close to a race to see how many women are running, and I think it's always interesting to try and I'd always like to find out which particularly when you get to 100 miles and you're running through nights, whether it's summer or winter, whether there's things that put women off doing some races. I know one of the things James Ellison has always been clear about having paces overnight is you know, in case there are women out there who don't feel comfortable running through the night. Although I always think one of the lovely things about being in a race is that you've got a tracker and people are watching you and actually it sort of gives you permission to go out and run all night in a way that you probably wouldn't do um by yourself, not under a a sort of race environment. Um but yeah, I think it's I think it's worth having a think about what might stop women from entering some of the bigger races. Yeah. Um but I think race directors are increasingly doing a good job about making people feel safe and that they can they can go and do what they want to do.

SPEAKER_08 36:11

I think another way in um that may become more prevalent is the backyard format because well one you're only out there for an hour each time, so you're always coming back to a base.

SPEAKER_04 36:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 36:26

Um and uh clearly they're there are reasonable sides field, so you're not out there on your own at night too long anyway. Or you can always team up with people nearly most of the time until it gets right down to the sharp end anyway. But women in Backyard seem to be making incredible progress from where they were. Um and uh um Sarah Perry, isn't it, that has the current female record at which she set at the SAT champs, wasn't it? I think Satellite Championships, yeah. The UK ones, yeah, 59. And then Megan Ecker um has now got the female world record, which is about 87, I think.

SPEAKER_06 37:09

Um, she took Courtney Torters, then.

SPEAKER_08 37:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:13

Oh wow, I didn't realise that.

SPEAKER_08 37:15

Yeah, so uh well that was taken by Jennifer Ross Russo as well. So Courtney did something like 67, and Jennifer Russo did seventy, I think. And now it's jumped to eighty-seven. Which is now you know, that doesn't put it you know, it's not a big leap that a woman could run a hundred. Um which is where the men at the front end of the race uh backyards has got any, you know, at the very top end.

SPEAKER_03 37:45

So yeah, I and and I think as when I've seen that there are more females in those fields uh than there are in um and I I think the science shows that the the longer you go, the the less it's down to just purely physiological factors and the more it becomes a mental component. So the the natural advantages men have over shorter distances. By shorter I mean ultra shorter, so sort of fifty up to a hundred miles tend to start dropping away once you push into the into the really big numbers, and that's you know if it comes down to a mental game, then maybe that's where women can do can do really well. But it seems to be, I mean, this is why we're here discussing it, also seems to be, you know, like I said, when it gets tough, you seem to get and I I always wonder I wonder whether maybe some of that is also uh and these are sweeping generalizations, so please don't pound me. Um whether it's down to sort of planning and ego, and I I think women, and it's a massive generalization, but probably tend to get more uh a little bit more anxious about what they're doing or a bit more worried about it, and therefore maybe plan a bit better. Yeah. Um you know, I'd spent that whole of that Wednesday before the race worrying about being cold and wet, so I'd bought a couple of last minute extra kit purchases, thank you, Amazon, um, which probably saved my race.

SPEAKER_08 39:08

Um I bet you saw men in shorts.

SPEAKER_03 39:11

Overtook a guy at Mar 91, he wrapped in a space blanket at the checkpoint, he was in shorts. Uh there were also women in shorts, to be fair. Oh, were they? But um I do think maybe there's something about uh women being more doubtful of their own abilities and therefore planning a little bit better maybe than some of their male counterparts. But it is a sweeping generalisation. Sorry, chaps.

SPEAKER_06 39:37

I did read um in Runner's World a while ago now, and it was to do with marathons, and the statistics were showing that women had their first half and their second half of a marathon was pretty much equal, whereas men's first half would be really fast and their second half would be really slow, and that is definitely something I've seen in races because I'm if if I'm gonna be overtaking people, it will be in the last few miles and it'll be men that I'm overtaken, and they are walking. And sometimes I think to myself, how on earth did you get this far ahead ahead of me? Yet now you are walking like so slowly, and it just sort of makes me think, did you just push it too hard and too fast at the beginning? Um, again, that's a sweeping generalization, but it's certainly familiar.

SPEAKER_08 40:25

Yeah, no, but it is certainly something I've been doing this to women for years. Why not?

SPEAKER_06 40:31

Something I feel and something I feel that I've seen is that some men, not all, will yeah, they'll go after that.

SPEAKER_03 40:37

But I think not borne up by statistics, that's and and not just over math and distance. I think again, James Olsen, I think, has done some statistical analysis on finishing times over hundred milders, and the the women do uh pace themselves better and more consistently.

SPEAKER_06 40:52

On World Horse last year it was a 100% female finish rate.

SPEAKER_08 40:57

Was it all the 100%, yeah. And that's the 200.

SPEAKER_06 41:02

That's the 200 miles. Yeah. So the longer it goes, it's and you're talking about backyard earlier, so uh Rattlebock are very close to a 50-50 split for female male.

SPEAKER_08 41:12

Right, in the Rasselbock.

SPEAKER_06 41:14

They've got a few. They've got um Is that Sherwood Pines? Sherwood Pines, and they've got uh the other one in September, Hardwick Hall. Um but yeah, they just on the Instagram actually they had a really nice post where they um sort of said what their goals were for 2025. Um and they're all really, really nice goals. But it's yeah, it's to do with maintaining that close to 50-50 splits, um sort of saving the world from plastic, and yeah, lots of lots of very nice things on there, so um check them out maybe.

SPEAKER_08 41:47

Yeah. Yeah, they because they do do other things other than backyard as well, aren't they? They do even m marathon, I think, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 41:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 41:56

Yeah, good. Yeah, they're quite new on the scene actually, but seem to be uh doing quite well.

SPEAKER_06 42:04

Because they do a live stream and that's right, yeah, that was one of their goals actually, is to for their live stream um for other uh to encourage other race directors to use the live streaming. Um I think it's a really great idea.

SPEAKER_08 42:17

Uh yeah, good. Yeah, that'll promote the sport more, I guess, the more you can do like that.

SPEAKER_06 42:25

It's a snowball effect though, isn't it? Because I think the more women who enter, then the more success they're gonna have. Then other women are gonna see that and it's gonna give them the push to do it. And then it it's chat, you know, when I like I I I started when I started Ultra, I I think I met I think I met Hannah before. I met you, Kev, and so I think Hannah was the first Ultra runner that I knew. And I remember when she was telling me about it, I just thought she was a bit weird. And and I I kind of I almost kind of switched off because I just I almost switched off because what she was talking about to me just seems so out of reach, and like she was telling me about UTMB and you know a hundred miles and over 40 something hours through mountains, and I was just like, what is this woman talking about? What why? Why why would anyone do this? And then here I am. So, but it it just takes you just need someone to look at and aspire to, and then and I know myself, I've run um a first ultra with a couple of female friends now, and you know, one of them said to me, Um, I'll only run an ultra if you do it with me. And I was like, Okay, well, let's do it. So it's that whole kind of you know, if we if you see other people, if you see your peers doing it and enjoying it, then it it then it makes you want to have a go, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_08 43:50

So yeah, definitely. I mean, I keep coming back to the spine race because I'm obsessed, but at the the the big talk at the moment before it wasn't the men, it was the About how exciting the women's field was.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 44:03

And there are a lot more women I know it's sharp end. Um at the sharp end, close together, that makes that you know race exciting and how it'll work out. And that's only coming because of the volume that's building up behind of women coming in and then seeing other people achieving these things and and well, the more you do, the better you get, I guess, a certain age. So yeah, no, that it it it's brilliant, it's really it's really good. Um and the and long may it continue.

SPEAKER_06 44:38

Have you entered the spine, Kev? Do you need to tell us something?

SPEAKER_08 44:44

Not yet. Not yet. No, seriously, I am seriously considering it, which I think it opens at the end of the month after this right edition. Um but getting in is really hard now. Um and it's for you know, fastest finger first, uh, which I'm not very good at. But I think I'll give it a go, and if I end up on a wait list, then I'll do that. So yeah, I mean I was watching some of the videos today from it, and some of the people before the race were saying, you know, what's life all about? Just do it. He said he'd been watching it, dot watching for five years, and it was like, how long can I keep dot watching and not do it? So you gotta give it a go some point, I I think.

SPEAKER_03 45:33

So well you've committed now. Yeah, you just said it on air.

SPEAKER_08 45:36

So well I haven't this isn't gone out yet. I will edit it. Yeah, no, I'll I'll definitely definitely try and get in for next year.

SPEAKER_03 45:47

But it doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_08 45:49

Yeah, it doesn't happen. I I you know, I wouldn't even mind doing one of the others. Um I'm probably saying that because it looks so lovely and snowy.

SPEAKER_06 45:58

And uh I was I was thinking the spine challenge itself look fantastic, but I think that's one of the races where kit is I think for Hannah and I both of us succeeded because we make really good kit choices. Yeah. Uh and I think the spine the spine race is another one. You've got to have you've got to have the right kit, trust in your kit, and know, understand your body and know what it's doing and when. I think that's that's a massive part to completing it, is yeah, we're in the right stuff, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 46:29

Yeah, I think the whole thing for me, I mean I've done quite a bit now, would think I'm reasonably experienced, but that would be a total like starting again for me, something like the spine, right?

SPEAKER_04 46:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 46:41

Because even with all the kit I've got, I won't have the kit. You know, you need a bigger race pack for a start, and then all the other mandatory things that are.

SPEAKER_06 46:50

It's a prolonged exposure to a snow in the events, isn't it?

SPEAKER_08 46:52

Yeah. Um and then yeah, and then managing yourself for potentially seven years old.

SPEAKER_06 46:58

Because you're yeah, there's no that not really any checkpoints, is there? Or you can't have crew.

SPEAKER_08 47:02

No, no, no, it's it's no it's no crew. You have to get between the the checkpoint array stations um and use their facilities. Um and the thing I like about the spine race, I hadn't noticed it before, there's there's a black dot on the route at the end. And it's actually the lantern rouge or the last the speed of the last the slowest person that's ever finished within the time cut-off, which is brilliant. So you you don't know because they have a um a trophy for the fastest time, which is Jack Scott now, and there's one for the female, she hasn't in Paris, and then there's this lantern rouge at the back.

SPEAKER_04 47:46

Oh, I hadn't realise that.

SPEAKER_08 47:47

So that's really good. So all the slower, the back of the pack people, you can see what they need to do. And the slowest time is a hundred and sixty-seven hours. So can you imagine being out there for 167 hours? Yeah, amazing. Big, big yeah. And I think those will be the real heroes at the end of it. At the end of whenever it'll be, someday or something next week. Uh this week. Um yeah, seeing those those that get it done after all of that. I hate to think what the recovery's like having just recovered from Winter Towns 200. It must be horrendous if you're out there that long.

SPEAKER_03 48:33

That long. Yeah. That's always the case, isn't it? I think one of the uh tail walkers for the winter race I just did messaged on my Facebook when he was the the last man in with the last person in, and you just think, well, by the time I was home and showered and in bed, and they were still out there till the next morning walking someone in through that storm as yeah. Hats off to all of them. Yeah, special kind of person doing the tail walking for that as well.

SPEAKER_08 49:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's tough. Brilliant. Well, thank you very much. Thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_05 49:06

Yeah, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_08 49:07

Yeah, I know we should do this more often when there's things to discuss, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 49:11

Oh, I feel more of an angry man when we leave. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 49:14

And I'm just gonna say I don't think we're weird, have anyone anyway.

SPEAKER_07 49:22

None of us are weird in this room. Or anybody listening.

SPEAKER_03 49:28

Once upon a time when we sat down at a Christmas deal and I started telling them about ultras. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_07 49:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:34

Oh, so you're to blame the both of us. Yeah, there must be some truth in that.

SPEAKER_08 49:39

Yeah. Yeah, she is.

SPEAKER_03 49:41

You're ground zero.

SPEAKER_08 49:44

Yeah, yeah. Well, we've been around doing them as long as I 2009?

SPEAKER_03 49:50

Is it Oh gosh, we'll be yeah, a good 20 years now. Yes. Oh, that does make me feel old.

SPEAKER_08 49:57

She's not really that old, you just started young, didn't you?

SPEAKER_03 50:01

Great. But but just to just to build on that point, when I started running Ultras all those years ago, they're really, you know, it was there were very, very few women. You'd turn up to a village hall and it would be a a bunch of middle-aged, mostly northern men and a very small community of runners. So I mean it's staggering to see how much it's changed, but the fact we can sit here now and talk about equal participation and how well the women are doing is is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_08 50:28

Yeah, well, I'm hoping that the um acceleration rate will go up. Because if that's twenty years.

SPEAKER_03 50:38

Well, it kind of a critical mass and yeah, brilliant.

SPEAKER_08 50:42

Well, thanks very much.

SPEAKER_06 50:43

Thank you.

SPEAKER_08 50:44

See you all soon.

SPEAKER_07 51:03

To the next bloody hesitation.