Aid Station
Aid Station
Ep 46 - Your Spine Race Personal Shopper James Elson
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Kev finds himself in kit heaven at the Centurion Running Store. Where he discusses all the kit requirements for a winter Spine Race with twice Spine Race finisher and kit guru James Elson.
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Hello and welcome to episode forty-six of AidStation. It's um early July, somewhat like the second or third of July. Uh we've just come off a bit of a heat wave. It's been about 30 degrees, and I am sitting in the ultra-running Aladdin's Cave that is uh Centurion uh running superstore um with Aladdin himself, James Ellison, um, to discuss of all things winter spine race kit, which seems a bit ironic because it's been so hot.
SPEAKER_03Does at the moment.
SPEAKER_02Um and you know, looking at all those videos that you tend to do uh once you get into the race, uh it's incredible the amount of warm weather kit you're gonna need. Um James has done some brilliant videos on YouTube uh around the kit that you need. Uh and it's done in a very structured way, and I recommend anybody watches those, which I've done over a couple of times, and you've done some updates to it, James, haven't you?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thanks. Appreciate that. Um we did one long form video after I ran it the first time in what would have been February, March of 2023. Yeah. And then inevitably some of the kit lists changed and some things improved, got lighter, um, just better quality. So I did a couple of updates, particularly around the sleep system. A couple of the products were discontinued that we were recommending. But the whole point of those videos is really to cut through the um huge amount of research that a lot of runners find themselves doing. And even once you've done the research, wondering whether those things will still pass kit check, whether they're the appropriate thing for the race to actually because there's kit there's the stuff that passes kit check, and then there's what you actually need, which are two very different things. Yeah, so that was the real intention of doing that. Obviously, we have a retail offering here, so the idea obviously was to drive drive people to the store as well, but ultimately we're here as a resource as much as a you know a retail outlet to try and help runners.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that was the uh part of this component. I mean, my main reason to come here was use to use you as my personal shopper. Yeah, that's fine.
SPEAKER_03I do that, I do that a lot for this race. You know, we have a lot of people who might watch the videos but still have questions and and individual needs that need to cover it off.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was wondering if that was something a service you offered that.
SPEAKER_03So we don't open we used to open for appointments here, but um we just can't commit to that time anymore. So now we open at least once a month, and uh on a Saturday from ten till two, and the November and December dates are are always full of spine runners who might have a lot of the kit and are coming to ask what we think of that kit. So don't always come and come to buy, they come to ask. Quite often I say to them what they've got is absolutely fine, and if it's not, then I'll tell them. But often people are like, listen, I've got two pairs of these socks or two pairs of these gloves, but if it's really bad, I need four or five, yeah, and they're topping up, you know. So yeah, once a month we we can but for you, Kev, we open space.
SPEAKER_02Well, I I I took the opportunity to bring a hundred litre bag full of kit, which um I think some of it might be useful, some of it's rubbish. I thought another side to this podcast would be that I'd ask all the idiot questions and and um and you can put me right, and in doing so, maybe put some other people right who are listening to the podcast. Um and I like the way you do it on the YouTube video, and I don't see any point in changing that, so I thought we'd start from the ground and go up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I was on the way up here listening to Jack Scott talking about the spine race uh slightly different, but he talked about going from the head down because he talked about head torch being the main thing 16 hours in the dark, you can't see where you're going, you ain't going anywhere. But I agree that I think you know, it makes sense to start on the ground with this sort of discussion uh about the way to go. So I want to start with the footwear, and it's the same footwear that you recommend. Um I ought to say, I mean, most people will know that listen to my podcast that I've done your uh Winter Downs 200 twice. Um and so starting with that, I'm going to get out of my bag a pair of smelly old boots that have done well they've I know they've done four your your event is uh 204 miles, isn't it? So it's about they've done about 208.
SPEAKER_03So these have done that race twice. Twice. Well, if there's not an argument for people. The durability of the shoe, I mean you've obviously looked after them. I think the biggest problem with winter footwear is that people buy and use and abuse, and it gets wet and it dry, wet, dry, mud on and off, and they don't maintain the shoe in the meantime. Right. So Sportiva shoes are a bit more so I'm holding the Cyclone Cross GTX, which is what I've used both times in the spine. Obviously, you've used for both winter downs. They're stitched and glued. That's that's the key reason that Sportiva shoes are a bit more durable on the uppers than some others, because there's kind of a double layer of stitching. So but the first thing that usually goes in these is up on the front of the up on just below the zip. Because that's that's the bit that has the greatest amount of flex in it. You've clearly maintained these and looked after them, and guess what? They're still absolutely in great condition, right?
SPEAKER_02There's a bit of the vanguard's way on the bottom, which I just can't remove.
SPEAKER_03So this black rubber is a it's a white friction X rubber, and without getting too geeky about it, it's a really sticky rubber. So it's designed to be good on trail and rock, and obviously not so durable on road and hard surfaces. Right. But you've still got decent lug. I mean the middle ones I was gonna ask you that.
SPEAKER_02Do you think that's good enough for for the spine? Absolutely. Yeah? Because I'm a hill striker, is it? Yeah, I can see that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I can see that. Um these shoes do not need replacing. Oh, okay. What I would say to you is that, and there's something that I've done at the spine, is having a pair that are half a size bigger in the drop bag, A, because the amount of time you're going to be out is so much more than a winter downs race. Not because it's 60 miles longer, just because the ground is so much more difficult overall. But also because if anything happens to your primary pair, one of them could split, you could, you know, anything. You know, the bower rips off. You know, I always cat it's never happened to me, but I do carry spare mini cable ties so I can fix a bower system because with lasers it's easier to fix sometimes. Yeah. But in terms of those, I mean that you've really looked awesome well.
SPEAKER_02You mentioned the sizing up because to be honest, I uh well the last time I did the Winter Dance 200, I destroyed my feet. Right, and I mean properly. I was stood in the woods up there before uh the winery and actually had to take them off in and stand and let the pain go. And I thought, am I gonna get them back on again? Um so I was thinking I'm not in the right size anyway. Okay. And the reason I say that is because you can't talk about the shoe on the spine without the sock, can you? No, the combo. Um and I got the if I can find them in this bag.
SPEAKER_03Um just just just quickly, obviously, this is a waterproof upper Gore-Tex, and it's a Gore-Tex waterproof um debris cover or zip-up gator. Those things are irrelevant. Having a waterproof shoe at the spine is irrelevant. The water is just going to come over the top of any shoe you use. So having a waterproof out so that's not important. The important part on this shoe is the fact that it's insulated. So that will keep your foot warm. Right. The sock, as you've rightly alluded to, is far more an important decision.
SPEAKER_02Well, I was just hunting for the ones that I've got, but you sell the Deckshell compression mudder. Right, and they're different Deckshells, aren't they?
SPEAKER_03Because I've got a feeling that I've got So these are the kind of knee length waterproof really hardcore waterproof sock that Dexhell make. And actually, while we're talking about it, they change name this summer. So this is this is a lighter weight um kind of all round Dexhell.
SPEAKER_02Alright, so that's not the same. I wasn't thinking the same. But it's got some bit of a merino wool lining in there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it has. The the lining of the compression mudder is is a bit slicker, a little bit less thick.
SPEAKER_02Um that's what was making me think that this didn't fit so well inside that. Yeah. Well that shoe size is half size up. Yeah. Combined with that.
SPEAKER_03So the spine spine for a hundred mile, but I it's the other thing with the spine is the riv you you are going to have river cut uh you know right up to your knee. Right. Um now I'm a short guy, so maybe you you don't have it come up that high on your knee.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But so for me, having that extra height means that all but the very biggest river crossings, you won't have water in over the top of the sock. That is the most important thing. Because once the water goes in over the top of that sock and the water's inside, it's not coming out again.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03So it's keeping your feet as dry as possible by keeping the water out via the sock, but not the shoe. The shoe's going to be soaked straight away inside. But if if your foot's dry inside the sock, you're on to winner. Now, a lot of people use liner socks with the compression mother. I initially started out doing that, but then I found I didn't need them, and one extra layer of potential rubbing and heat and friction removed. I would try the compression mother by itself before adding a liner sock to it.
SPEAKER_02Which I was thinking of using the ing.
SPEAKER_03Yep. And it's each to their own. Listen, everyone's going to say to you, Oh, this is how you keep your feet in good condition on the spine. And and one person's plan's going to work for them and not for the next person. So my my theory with feet is simple is best. I don't use any taupe, any cream, any lube. I just wear the sock that fits in the shoe that fits and get used to that combination. And and I d I didn't get blisters either time. Now, um that's not going to work for everyone. You might find that the trick is an injin G liner inside it, and that's absolutely fine. Um you've just got to practice in training.
SPEAKER_02And how many pairs would you reckon you need?
SPEAKER_03There's five checkpoints for me. The the excess, the kind of nice to have that you could do without, but ultimately you're investing so much in the race entry and getting there and everything else anyway. I have a spare headlamp battery, a spare pair of socks, and a spare pair of gloves in every single bag. So I have the drop bag I have, I have five big kind of compression bags inside that, one for each checkpoint, and I'll have socks, gloves, and headlamp battery, and I will switch them no matter what at every checkpoint. Obviously, that's hundreds of pounds of extra kit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But for me, if you get to checkpoint three or four and you're out of dry socks and you're out of dry gloves and your bet your headlamp batteries are dead, I mean you've compromised your race potentially for you know a couple of hundred quids worth of kit. That arguably, no, I've still got all that kit, it still all works great. I use it all the time. And if you're in training and you've got five pairs of compression mudders, it's a lot, but you will use them, you know? Yeah, yeah. Um so that's my plan anyway. Okay.
SPEAKER_02And is there any other time that you would use anything other than the Lasportiva Cyclone GTX in determining I'm talking about ground conditions.
SPEAKER_03No, the short answer is no. You look at the front of the field, and I think it's a little bit misleading. I mean, John Kelly wore Prodigio Pros, Kim Collison wore um these are all Las Portiva shoes, by the way. Obviously, other brands are available. Kim Collison wore Blizzards, um, which are really, really solid underfoot, and they have the spikes built into them.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03They're completely opposite end of the spectrum to Prodigio Pro that's soft, not waterproof. Um and and it's horses for courses, you know. For me, there are alternatives to the Cyclone Cross GTX, the Salamon Spine, there's a Scarpa shoe as well that's a similar kind of boot. There's even a north face one. They don't have insulated uppers, um, and that for me is makes the comfort of these, but also the warmth of these better. Yeah. Um they are still making.
SPEAKER_02You know, I'm not I'm gonna be way at the back. I mean, I was looking at you, you've done like 116 hours, and I'll probably be 166, you know what I mean. You're looking two and a half days. So when I'm talking about this, I it the advice needs to come from the perspective of yeah, I need to go with that because I'm out there so bloody long anyway.
SPEAKER_03I I think ultimately, as with any kit you use in ultrarunning, it has to be comfortable. Yeah. It might be better performance-wise, but if it's not comfortable to use something else. So for me, in two spines, I switched into the Blizzards in 2023 between two checkpoints. The rest of all of the rest of both races I've used those. Okay.
SPEAKER_02I asked that question because I also have a pair of so I you've pulled out the regular cyclone.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I absolutely love this shoe. Um, and I use this for any any mountain running. So if I was doing the dragon's back, or I used it for the Paddy Buckley, um, the Ramsey round. If I'm doing um something that needs some wet, softer muddy, um, then this is my go-to shoe. And the fit's very similar to Cyclone Cross GTX, obviously. Um, however, it's not quite as soft. It's it's it's a lighter weight shoe, it's more of a racy shoe, um, and there's no insulation in the upper and no debris gator. So for me, a great option, but the winterized version is the way to go.
SPEAKER_02Okay. That's great. So, um as we're down on the feet, and this is now I'm really out of a zone I've never been in in my life, we're talking about ice and snow and yak tracks and micro spikes, and yeah, over to you.
SPEAKER_03I've no idea what so um obviously Lin Lee, the spine kit guru, yeah, and ultimately the guy who oversees kit check and makes sure everyone's carrying what they need. He has um micro spikes or yak tracks as the two options that you can select from. Now a micro spike is a kind slightly bigger mini crampon, effectively, that pulls over the front and the back of the shoe and immediately gives you like a cramp on effect on any shoe you're using. And a yak tracks is essentially um a cheaper, lighter coil system. So it's just a bit of metal that's wrapped round and around the pieces of rubber. Excuse me. Excuse me. Um they are better on um so so the micro spike is best on thicker ice, thicker snow. The Yak Trax is better for me on slightly thinner ice, and the nano spike, which is between the two, is what most runners have because if you need something to actually run in, microspike's too much, the actrax probably you know a little bit too lightweight, and the nano spike's actually ideal, but they will not pass kit check.
SPEAKER_01Alright.
SPEAKER_03I have never, and we've had a lot of snow both times, I've done the spine, um, put any spike or yak tracks on at any stage. Alright. You in in my opinion, you won't you won't use them. Oh wow. Now, obviously, if it's verglass or basically water ice covering rocks as you're ascending penny again, you will need to probably put something on to be safe. Um I I've I've never felt the need. I've never felt the need to add them. So for me, the microspike is heavier and more expensive. I'm buying a yak I mean, I've had a pair of yak tracks for 20 years. They're still functional, they're light, they pack up super small, and I've I've never needed them.
SPEAKER_02It's funny because I saw on the Facebook spine group somebody slagging them off and saying that they fell apart in no time at all. The Yak tracks. Yeah, the Yak Tracks, yeah. I mean they may have worn them uh a lot during the race over there.
SPEAKER_03In terms of future proofing, I mean, for example, Tour de Géant, you have to have micro spikes because glaciers, snow. They are the far superior product. If you're gonna buy these things and actually, you know, you've got adventures lined up in the future where you might even days out hiking in British winter, they are the micro spike is the way to go. Either Cthula or Nortec make a micro spike that's and they pass kit check. Yes. Yeah, okay. They but but stay away from the nano spikes. Right. They're the lighter weight version that will not pass kit check. Right. And Yak Trax for me is the I'm carrying these but I don't intend to use them customer. They pass kit check, um, they're an inferior product overall.
SPEAKER_02But they're just in there because they're lighter, are they? They're ahead of light.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right, great. I think that covers everything on the feet. Yeah. So we move up to um legs, coverings, protection, and in your um recommendation it's obviously tights. Do you wear them all the time?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean I have seen the odd person in shorts at the start of it, and I think that yeah, I the the thing that even even say you get a warm spine year and the conditions are seven, eight degrees, which which as soon as you climb up Kinder from the start, you're at six hundred and fifty metres. So you've climbed four hundred metres, it's already going to be four degrees cooler than that. You know, for it to be above freezing is rare. Um you need tights for wind protection, you need tights um just because they'll be more comfortable. Um having exposed skin in this race is is not a good look.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Now I don't think you can obviously buy thermal tights which have wind stopper fronts that have insulated sort of thermal insides, and they're great products. I've never needed more than a regular tight um with with a decent waterproof over trouser. So I'm starting the race, and 98% of the field are starting the race wearing tights and waterproof trousers right from the get-go. They're even if it's a dry year, you're going to be wading through water, ice cold water, from you know, a couple of hours into the race, possibly less.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03Um, and we've just discussed keeping the water out of your socks. The waterproof trousers are the the extra factor there. So a pair of tights that are comfortable. If you want thermal and windstopper, that's fine, but I wear a waterproof trouser over the top, so it's less of an issue. So I wear a regular tight, like a montane slipstream tight or a you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't really know.
SPEAKER_03I I've got a pair of um so skins are quite light, they're they're not very insulated.
SPEAKER_02Um and I would consider that more like underwear than or then the you or I've got some icebreaker which are merino wool, I think, which are very ridiculous.
SPEAKER_03No, I think they look good. Yeah, no, they look good to me. Obviously, they need to be full length, so no caprus and three-quarter length, which these these look good. Um and then and then a waterproof trouser over top. The the key with the legs is it's less of an issue if you've not got so much insulation on your legs. You don't need to keep your legs anywhere near as your core, warm as your core.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, but once again, if it's hacking it down from the start and you're wet through by Hebden and you've only packed one or two spare pair of tights in your drop bag, and it it rains the entire race, you you're going to be wearing wet tights, and that's not a good look.
SPEAKER_02Do the spine have a set of kit like you do in Centurion that is untouchable? You put it in your bag and it's safety, and that's it, you're not doing it.
SPEAKER_03in the race or uh yes in theory you can use it between checkpoints but you need to be starting each leg with yeah that kit. But no, there's not like a layer that stays in a dry bag that you cannot touch unless you're dropping out. You are fine to use. Oh okay. Everything. So I'd say your skins are probably a bit thin. Yeah. If it's a warmer section and it's a warmer day, absolutely fine. Otherwise that sort of thing, the Merino icebreakers are ideal. And the waterproof trouser I've worn the I've worn the Lasportiva Drizzle which is like a 15k hydrostatic head breathability rating. So lighter than the jacket again it's just less important. Okay. But gold standard is obviously a Gore-Tex.
SPEAKER_02Now these I bought these off you this is turning into a bit of a Lasportiva advert but um I wasn't intending it to be that but I am a La Sporttiva geek anyway.
SPEAKER_03Okay so these won't pass kit check because they're windproof but not waterproof. They don't have tape seams. Now this is where we come to what is actually the best kit to use against what is mandatory kit. So you in my opinion these will be superb. Yeah. Will they pass kit check? No. So you need to have a second pair which I would say like these are heavy and not very packable.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So these are not a pair that I'd put in my race pack. These are a pair that I'd be wearing and I'd be carrying a pair of drizzle pants in the pack to tick the Manager kit box if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02Well I raced in those in the Winterdowns 200 bearing in mind that I'm out there a long time and add them on all the time. Yeah they're brilliant.
SPEAKER_03And they and yeah I had no issues with overheating but they So what these are essentially is a schemo pant which are comfortable flexible you know insulated but they're not technically waterproof which is the issue.
SPEAKER_02So the ironic thing is I could then and this is I know the all these scenes come up with kit check don't I? So I could then dig out a pair of men with tape seams. Yep. Only a hundred and uh ten thousand stuff head or something. But they'll pass kit check. Yep. And that is a better although it's not waterproof. Correct.
SPEAKER_03Yeah but obviously you know from it's impossible for Linley or anybody to say here's a list of products that will pass. Like this is actually more appropriate but if he doesn't say it has to be waterproof he can't win. No. So this is one of those here's the kit that I want to use because it's best for me and but I also need to carry a couple of extra bits to tick the mandatory kit box. And that is a prime example of that. Okay.
SPEAKER_02So the key takeaway is a set of tights appropriate to the temperature maybe and and a set of waterproof leggings that pass the kit.
SPEAKER_03So yeah I mean if you have essentially Gore-Tex it without going through Gore-Tex Active, Gore-Tex Pro, Shake Dry, all the different Gore-Tex materials, tends to be the most durable, the most waterproof and the most breathable fabric. That's a broad brush, there are nuances to it. But if you want the best kit that's going to provide you the best protection for the longest period of time, you need to look at Gore-Tex. Which is why we recommend what have been the phase nano jacket which has now stopped and has been replaced by the Phase Light. And the I've forgotten the name of the waterproof trouser that we also stopped. It's also a Gore-Tex product. The reality is the OMM trousers you've got out, the drizzle pants are more than enough most of the time. Oh really? So I I I think your combination of this trouser that you'll wear and having those lighter weight waterproof trousers would be plenty. Okay. Yep. Right.
SPEAKER_02Okay so moving up probably to the most important part of the body to your core where do you start with that in terms of layering because it's all about layering systems isn't it really for the this sort of winter event.
SPEAKER_03Well there's two approaches there's the people that wear a base layer and a buffalo over jacket which is designed to be used pretty much by itself and is essentially a suit of armour. Buffalo won't pass kit check. It's not waterproof. However it's it it's waterproof enough it's certainly thick enough that it will far outperform in terms of water repellency a lightweight waterproof jacket that will pass kit check. So that again if you see some of the runners up the back or rather hikers who are there to complete might stick their buffalo on at the start and swear by that and use it for the entire duration and finish quite happily. That's absolutely fine. What I do is look at a mountain layering system and go from there really so that is a base layer next to skin something that wicks really well you know Merino's ideal some of the technical more technical fabrics from Sportiva or Salamon or whatever do a great job as well. Then you have like a light mid layer so maybe something without a hood with a zip up top then you'd have a thicker mid layer which could be a fleece of some kind well for this race an insulated jacket so prima loft or something and then a waterproof shell over the top of that. Now that all sounds a bit much but that that basically that five layer system is a classic mountain system so people climbing big peaks will have that because their thermoregulation changes depending massively depending whether they're going up or down they can be working extremely hard for short sections and need a lot of ventilation and it might be clear and they don't need it. But if they get caught out they need a hell of a lot of protection and especially descending. So it allows better regulation of your body temperature if you've got more layers on. The truth of the matter is that however many layers you think you need for this race you need more. There are times in this race when I've had six or seven jackets on and I mean thick jackets and that might seem preposterous but if you're on crossfell I mean two years I mean again this year it's minus 16 with additional wind chill on crossfell at 3am and you've been up for three days straight you have no thermoregulation whatsoever you're getting freezing cold really quickly. You do this steep climb up onto the plateau and then you're in this huge wind and this sort of Arctic landscape you cannot have enough clothing on. You certainly need the base layer you need a mid layer then you need two or three fleece jackets and then a windproof because if it's if it's raining you have a waterproof on if it's not raining you should not have a waterproof jacket on. You need a windproof jacket over the top.
SPEAKER_02Now the the base layer is simple I've said merino to you but any kind of synthetic base layer that's comes from the the the tights I showed James just now icebreaker I don't know 260 zone whatever that means it's something to do with the um weave and and how protective they are um so um what I'm talking about is like a a heavier vest top if you like and so that would be fine. That's a baseline would that be you think that's on the top as well? No as the first base layer do you think that's not too hot just fine.
SPEAKER_03Can't see any time where you just have that on. It's possible but you'd be very lucky with the conditions if you just needed that.
SPEAKER_02So some people will obviously choose something else um synthetic just a bit thicker than a tech running tee you know if it's just to get a description.
SPEAKER_03If you're looking at a long sleeve tee that you you know is quite thin and and just a polyester that that's not going to cut it. You need something with a little bit more weight and thickness to it. So you Kev's pulled out a salmon um I'm not sure what product this is but it's really nice. It's kind of a um synthetic sort of stretchy um base layer that looks really comfortable and fairly well insulated. It's not massively thick I'd reckon that weighs about 250 grams and is spot on. Right. And I would um I would have several of those I would have the one that you're wearing the one in your bag and at least a couple in your drop bag. Again if you get wet through you're gonna need dry layers before you leave the next checkpoint. It is possible to dry stuff at checkpoints they have drying areas certainly the earlier checkpoints have drying areas Bellingham definitely does not that's ideal. The next layer would be a thin mid layer so we do a montane proteum which you know it's a little bit thicker. It would be something you could wear in winter by itself if it was a cold day you know a thicker layer that you'd wear in winter that isn't just you know that thin next to skin layer but otherwise performs like a second insulating layer over that. Right. Then you're into jackets. The key thing with the jacket is you can end up with three or four hoods on. So if you're buying thicker jackets and you've got a jacket on your fleece layer a hood on your fleece layer a hood on your Primal jacket and a hood on your windproof it's a lot of hoods and it's a lot of like bulk on your neck. So some people prefer to buy the thicker mid layer without a hood. The encore jacket is superb it doesn't have a hood it zips all the way down it ventilates it's light. Is that the one that's in the video? It is yeah and it's kind of unique material. It's um fluffy and warm but it's also if you sort of stretch the fabric it's essentially you can see through it at the same time so it ventilates as well so it really regulates temperature.
SPEAKER_02Over the top of that you'll need you can carry either a down jacket can I just stop you on that one because I just want to talk through this is a 300 gram montane which is basically the one everybody whinges about on the dragon's back race. I don't know why they whinge about it but they're always saying oh it's another layer it's a compulsory bit of kit for the dragon's back.
SPEAKER_03So this is this is this is ideal for for the spine.
SPEAKER_02So Kev's just given me it's like a synthetic fleece it's not particularly thick uh it's got a zip at the top but no hood and I reckon that might just about weigh 300 grams does it just about well actually I think that's the old I think it was I think it was like 250 and plus a hat in the old day. Yeah now now you have to have a 300 gram so it might be lighter yeah.
SPEAKER_03So this for me is um your third layer. So you've got this base layer that you've given me then you've got a lighter mid layer Proteums ideal and then this over the top of that.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03You are then going to need a really good I mean certainly a very good windproof over the top of that again.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_03And that could be switched out with your waterproof jacket if it's wet.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03But you also need one thicker jacket at all times. So that there's plenty of times on the spine where I've had this base layer, the lighter mid layer that you've we've discussed this thicker jacket you've given me a down jacket or a thick Primal jacket over the top of that and then a window waterproof on top of that and that's your five layer system. Now if these layers get wet you need to be able to switch them out not between checkpoints but at the checkpoints. So you would definitely want to have a couple of certainly spare base layers but a couple of other jacket options for if these get wet through just on the on the and they always need to be synthetic right so the the deal with down is once it gets wet it doesn't insulate you so it doesn't pass kit check. I've used down jackets in the spine they're lighter and if it's dry they're uh better however as soon as it starts raining and they wet out they don't provide any insulating property so you need synthetic and if you're only buying one thing because these are expensive we're now into layers that can cost£200 plus easily you you're better off buying Prima loft because which this jacket you've given me is because it will still insulate it when it's wet still insulate you when it's wet and it passes kit check.
SPEAKER_02Okay that was a good bit of info.
SPEAKER_03I I didn't know that at the time although it was a recommendation obviously from the So this is a sort of kit that's expensive but you've bought it and it's lasted you years and it's it's absolutely in great condition.
SPEAKER_02Yeah and and I've used it um teen times. Exactly and and even had it in the bag because it's sensible to have it in the bag. Completely completely it's a good investment yeah so the the thing I haven't got is this top layer heavier what I'm gonna call a rain jacket. Yeah I mean I haven't got a windproof either but yeah um so in terms of those there's a myriad of them from what I can see on the market I was just you really need to be carrying a Gore-Tex waterproof.
SPEAKER_03Right oh okay you know you can pass kit check with uh what I would call a lightweight running waterproof so like a 20k hydrostatic head which you know the Salamon Bonatti the Innovate Storm Shell the Montaig Minimus light those jackets the PerTex Shield jackets that everyone has for your typical Ultra will pass kit check they will not stay dry for long enough in bad weather in my opinion you absolutely must carry Gore-Tex Active or that's not so yeah so what you've given me here is a Gore-Tex Active jacket and you can tell it's Gore-Tex Active because it will say on the bottom so Gore-Tex is they produce the fabric and then these companies run off and make their jacket with it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Now this is an Odyssey that you've given me it's about the lightest weight waterproof jacket you can get that's also Gore-Tex. So that would pass Kitcheck it will pass Kit check easily want to be up it's the right fabric it's not thick enough. No so this is where if you buy Gore-Tex Active which this is it it's a really good jacket and will be robust for six to eight hours in bad weather um it's not enough for the smile. No so unfortunately you've got probably the best lightweight waterproof on the market and and it will do for for almost all conditions now.
SPEAKER_02No I get it totally yeah I mean I I use that in fact I've had I think I had a salmon banatti underneath that during the winter dam when it rained but I know damn well that's not going to do me when I'm up so there's the the the missing component to the waterproof question is the denier so the thickness of the material.
SPEAKER_03So I have a um a Rosseg jacket from Lasportiva that is a Gore-Tex material but it's a much thicker outdoor style waterproof than that. Right. That's where something like the Phase Nano and the phase light come into their own because they're just they're thicker than that. So they will stand up longer and they're more durable in bad weather. Okay.
SPEAKER_02I think oh just I was going to say that was the five layers but I want to talk about windproof because I've never had a windproof.
SPEAKER_03So the windproof for me is the a piece of kit that I use almost every day in training because they weigh a hundred and twenty grams and I will start any run where I'm starting cold I start with the windproof on take it off after 15 minutes once I've warmed up and tuck it into my waistbelt.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03They weigh so little and they're really packable. The major error people make is thinking that their waterproof jacket is their outer layer throughout the race. As I previously said you should only have your waterproof on if it's raining what the windproof does is stops the cold air blowing straight through you. Now they're not terribly good at ventilating it can be a bit like a plastic bag in terms of venting heat back out but if it's cold for almost zero additional weight they give you a really really important outer layer and will give you a lot of thermal protection on top of the layering system you've already got. Yeah because it's got to be the key thing the wind chill factor hasn't it and that one layer it's windy and people don't want to buy two jackets I get it they want to buy a jacket that passes kit check but this is again the kit check passing column and the what do I actually need column you need the waterproof for kit check and obviously if it's wet but if it's not you need a good windproof as your outer layer yeah that column is what do I need to finish the race column right and this is the problem and I'm totally honest you know I've had this conversation with Lindley and with Matt Neal who's finished the race five six times he's a good friend of mine and he's the lead rang for Yorkshire Dales National Park I mean he lives on the Penn Line way is that the problem with the kit list is it leads inexperienced runners into thinking that's the kit they need whereas that in fact is the list of things that will keep you safe in bad conditions. What you actually need is all the stuff we're talking about here Kev with these trousers that won't pass kit check that are perfect with this jacket that might not pass kit check but is perfect because it's what you actually will need as the the thing you're wearing on the on the ground. Okay.
SPEAKER_02If that makes sense. Yeah no it's been that's brilliant.
SPEAKER_03Okay so it looks to me so far you've got most of the stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah but it it'll be a case of adding two. A few extra pieces. Having extra bits and when it's wet out what am I going to do?
SPEAKER_03And my recommendation really is is to kind of if you're a regular runner coming into this this gets expensive fast is to purchase things as you go along you know pick things up throughout the month. So you start training with your full pack you want to have all your stuff but you don't realistically need to be doing that until kind of mid October early November give yourself eight to twelve weeks with the pack. Yeah um so start accruing bits as you go along.
SPEAKER_02Yeah that's really why I'm starting now I mean you get you know you get the delight that you actually get into the race um that initial thing and then you spend the next 12 months thinking about the damn thing. But six months out you really do need to be thinking about kit I think unless you you know you've got you know five grand in the bank and you're just gonna just go and blow it in for Christmas.
SPEAKER_03And you need to make a spreadsheet you need to list out all of the Mantry kit on that spreadsheet and make sure you've got everything because they will kit check you on about ten items about twenty items or on everything. And when you get to kit check as a lottery system and you get allocated a car you know a traffic light right if they kit check you on anything on everything and you you fail anything you aren't starting that race.
SPEAKER_02And there isn't anywhere to just run off and buy the stuff you need to do Edale research I I've never been on there um Penn Island way except crossing it on the Northern Traverse up at Tan Hill. So I went up to E Dale and I was amazed how remote it is how bugger all else there. Yeah I mean they haven't got a trade station and a coffee shop but that was it.
SPEAKER_03But there's no outdoor and Lindley obviously knows the stuff that fell traditionally and he'll have bits spare but you really you really want to be sure before you get there.
SPEAKER_02You've got everything there. So we move on to head and hands I guess um again that's quite personal isn't it and I don't think there's anything in mandatory about is there hands?
SPEAKER_03Warm and waterproof gloves so you know you can start with a decent pair of run any running glove and a waterproof overglove like a Camla om on camlica mitt or a Salamon Bonatti mit or a um what else do we say a raid light waterproof over mit they are the lightweight waterproof gloves that are there for passing kit check and use at UTMB or you know Ark of Atrition that kind of thing. The gloves that I recommend for the spine are the Respond dry line from Montain and the reason is they're Primaloft, insulated but they're also waterproof. I think I've got a pair of those they used to be called Prism dry line this is important not Prism but this the dry line part that's important. Okay. So they are warm and waterproof. That's that's the key part. Right.
SPEAKER_02I th that's um I've definitely got a pair of those somewhere laying around here somewhere which I should have organised better and we've got them out. So they do a uh uh a a mitt and a and a a glove. I'm just gonna throw in a pair of very ordinary um uh ski gloves, sure. Um which are Gore-Tex. Really nice glove. Um so where do they stand in I mean they're not waterproof, obviously.
SPEAKER_03They're Gore-Tex, so they're waterproof. They are. Yeah. So they'll pass kit check. You would need a second pair of gloves to pass kit check to carry. Yeah so that could be a a thinner liner glove. It doesn't have to be two pairs of these. This isn't very dissimilar to a respond dry line. So I would have a dry pair of these leaving every checkpoint. Now, obviously, if you've got one pair and can keep them dry, that's fine.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um but you need this is where I said, you know, harking back to earlier in the conversation, I have a spare pair at every checkpoint.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Okay, so I'm probably gonna You'll need a few other pairs of similar gloves to those. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah, it's I know, I know. Because people do look at things and think, right, I need one pair of trainers.
SPEAKER_03And what people do is they buy two pairs of gloves and they they go, that's enough. And they get closer to race to and they're like, oh my god, that's not enough. And they'll end up buying two or three more pairs. And and unfortunately, stock availability isn't always great. You know, several years in a row there's been no access to compression mudder nearer to the day. And we've said you know, you've had massive stock issues because people start buying five, six pairs each. It doesn't take many customers to clear out retailers, you know. Yeah, yeah. And these aren't products you find on the high street, clearly.
SPEAKER_02Wow, yeah, that hence all this pre-race planning to it. Um, okay, anything outside of um what would be mandatory in terms of gloves? I mean, I guess you rock up with what you feel you're gonna Yeah, for me And how do you feel about a mitt versus glover again? Is that personal?
SPEAKER_03It's personal. I prefer mitts, I find them slightly warmer. Right. A lot of people prefer gloves. Um I I've got a small suspicion that Lindley has changed the regulations this year so that you actually need to have gloves and not mitts. You need to check he made a few changes this year, one around the handheld GPS, and I believe one around gloves that I haven't had a chance to check up on yet. But I think he might be mandating gloves now and the Respond Dry Line gloves that come in men's and women's fits are the what are definitely the ones to go for.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Um headgear. Mm-hmm. Um again, personal thing, but I just like to talk through it just so that there's you know, there's many ways people go. I mean, people wear balaclavas, don't they? The full thing. Some people just have like the big, I don't know, Sherlock Holmes hat on, I don't know, whatever the there's all sorts you can stick on your head, I guess, that about having enough of them as well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so I use the core beanie, which is this on core fabric that I talked about before that's fleecy, but also when you pull it apart vents.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And and it's like a skull cap essentially, and I find them um really, really good.
SPEAKER_02I've also got two of those somewhere, and I really wanted to get that out. One of them I mean I've got the ordinary stuff, you know, like the wool hat, I don't know whether those um.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, this kind of thing, this you've pulled out a fleecy fleece lined kind of skull cap from um sportiva. Yep, that's a wind stopper material. So Gore-Tex Infinium is a windstopper and not waterproof. Right. Any one of these hats that you've given me, I probably steer clear of that because this thick woolen hat will get wet and then it's useless. Yeah. These two synthetic layers, so this montane kind of windstopper, Gore-Tex Infinium, and this Sportiva, that's called a circle beanie. Yeah. Um, they're excellent. The core beanie vents much better than these two. Oh, right, okay. So the the key with that is your head can get quite hot, and especially if you're using hoods on top of the hat, you'll find that if you have one of these and then hoods over the top, you could get quite hot quite quickly. Whereas the core beanie vents really nicely. They're not that much money. And I was just in the same boat as these two here.
SPEAKER_02Right. This is it I'm showing James, which is because he's a cyclist. This is a Mavic thing that I wear under my cycle helmet. Um, but I don't think that's is that as is that more breathable or less breathable?
SPEAKER_03Um I it's probably slightly more breathable. These are all wind stopper materials, so they're designed to keep the wind out and unfortunately then to keep almost all the heat in. Yeah. They're all really good. And they're definitely I would take all of those. I would have a Corbini as the extra thing.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03Um and that will cover you. The balaclava thing, yeah. Obviously, you can get snow and sleet and hail coming at you on a 50 mile an hour sideways wind. You to the ability to cover exposed skin around your face is is important. So you need to have a balaclava, it's part of the mandatory kit. And the the montane proteum um balaclava is ideal, it's the same material as the midlayer that we recommend and um just gives you that forehead protection. You've also got to have goggles or safety glasses, and then you'd have no exposed skin on your face. Right.
SPEAKER_02Now, while we're on that one, personally, um I'm in the market for a set of new ski goggles. Do I go ski goggles that you can swap out the lenses? Because you have to have clear lenses, that you can't have any tint in them.
SPEAKER_03Or do you I just get the I just get the Boley safety goggles that are 20, 25 quid. Right. And they're clear, they're clear goggles. You only need them if the you know the snow or the the heat the hail or sleet is stinging your eyes. Right. And obviously it's dark for two-thirds of the race, so clear is the mandatory kit requirement. Yeah. You're better off just getting a pair of those. I I think the glasses are useless. I think safety glasses are fine for passing kit check. It's actually, in practical usage terms, rubbish. So I carried the goggles, which are slightly bulkier but weigh not much more. Um and they're really cheap, and that's uh that's that's the way I'd go with it.
SPEAKER_02So it's can you explain it again? So that's a goggle that's clear.
SPEAKER_03It's just like a pair of ski goggles, they just have a clear lens. Right. And Bolley essentially making safety equipment for use in workplace. So they're the sort of goggles you'd wear if you were welding or cutting something where you might get something in your eye. Yeah. Um and they sell you can buy them on Amazon or direct from Bollet, and they're really cheap, and they'll do everything you need. Right. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Cool. I think that's covered everything on the body. Um and now we get to the point where you gotta pack a lot of that stuff into a bag and carry it on you. Um and I know in your video you um you use the Montain Gecko 20 litre plus uh which I just happen to have. Um and I got again just to use because I've had very you know you end up with every pack size, don't you, once you start ultra running. Um but I don't think, personally, um that this will do me on the race. Um and I comboed it on the Northern Traverse, so I used the Gecko 20litre plus and I combined it with the OM, which is a four-litre chess pack that goes on the front, and a bit of a Heath Robinson, because the two don't have systems that that join, because one they're two different companies, obviously. Um I'm in midpoint because you also recommend the uh Ultimate Direction 30 litre, which I've had a look at. Um so I'm open to persuasion on this or not.
SPEAKER_03So there's there's two downsides to the Gecko 20. Uh one, it's on the small side. Yeah. I am carry I carried the lightest, smallest kit. I'm a small person.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03If I was an XL, I probably wouldn't have got my kit in the back. Right. That's a consideration. Um it also swings about a bit on the back. Right. However, the stuck like this the stow pockets, the access, the fit of it being more comfortable, like a race vest, than it is a backpack, are the reasons I chose that. If you add a chest pod to that and you pack your kit, you might find it's it's viable.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think the way to go is to actually pack the kit up. You have to pack the kitchen work.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and and once you go running or walking with the full kit, then you can assess how much movement there is in the back of the bag, and it may or may not be comfortable for you. The the fast pack 30, because of the roll top, gives you that extra bit of space. Like if you if you are really tight packing this 20 litre, and the weather's horrendous, and you want to put a couple spare jackets in the top, there's a good chance you won't have room. Whereas in the 30 litre, you've got that extra bit of roll top space, so you can just whack an extra layer in and be safe. Um, so I think the for the average spine runner, particularly towards mid-back pack, I mean, but look, Lucy Gossage and Kieran Collison use the UD fast pack 30 and won the race. So don't don't you know I think the Gecko 20 is the absolute lightest um least capacity option, and I think the safer bet is the UD fastpack 30 at this point. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02The only thing I would say, I mean, I am going to be travelling as I keep saying, much slower, so it's less important about the size and the bulk, but you're right, the vest just feels so nice on, and I can't I imagine I don't know, but I imagine that anything else is going to feel like a rucksack if it isn't designed as a race vest.
SPEAKER_03No, no, that's right. And I think really the key with the UD one, the issue is really the front access. There's just less of it than in the Montaigne Gecko. That's where using a chest pod with it would come into its own. Because then if you've got your nutrition up front, yeah um that spreads the weight better and gives you more front access.
SPEAKER_02The other thing is on your video, and I I only ever use soft flasks, but I've noticed loads of people, um, particularly in the spine, you know, they've got like huge um drinking containers in the front or even just manufacturers' product bottles, you know, um that fit into them. What what's the well you because I mean it's about travelling speed as well, isn't it? I mean, how much fluid do you actually take on board?
SPEAKER_03You ri you really don't take much.
SPEAKER_02No, I was thinking that.
SPEAKER_03You know, you are not sweating up. If you're sweating up, you've really got to have a look at your layering system and/or how hard you're going. Yeah. Yeah. The other issue is making sure those things don't freeze. Yeah. Because many times on the spine I've I've been using regular soft flasks and found the nipple part at the top has frozen up and I just can't get the fluid out. Um, and you're not you're just not in a position to be unscrewing the top of soft flask to take a drink. So I would I personally prefer soft flask, but you must make sure to remember to keep either sucking fluid through them or manipulating the nipple to break any ice out so that it doesn't freeze up, and it's easy to forget. I I can't think that I've ever carried more than a litre, possibly a litre and a half, absolute max at any one time, and ever had an issue with hydration.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03There are so many streams, um, and and of course, you know, honesty boxes and and shops and other things that you eventually pass, plus the checkpoints. Yeah. Um, yeah, ideally, you have insulated soft flasks like the salmon ones, and or a catadin B3 or XA filter flask to filter river water. Yeah. Because the the pen on way actually isn't that high a lot of the time. There's a lot of farmland around, so there are some dubious water sources that you might end up feeling you need to take from a filter flask, would be worth it. Yeah. But for me, it's two soft flasks in the front in a normal kind of setup. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Excellent. Um, right, I think that covers most of that stuff. So on to other kit, and I'm doing this off the top of my head, and you would know it better than me. So if I forget anything, jump in. Um we'll move to the um the poo bag. Yeah. I don't want to. Do you sell shit shuffles?
SPEAKER_03Yes, we do. Um there's a cat hole trowel that we sell from GSI. Right. It's on the heavier side. I think this is more about responsibility than kit check.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03It's too many runners just defecating on the trail. When you've got gaps like this big between checkpoints, you're just not going to have access to facilities. Right. And the Pennine Way is remote in places, but otherwise, you know, you should be getting off the trail, scratching out a small hole, and then you know, backfilling it. The ground, both times I've done it, except for the end of this year, has been absolutely frozen. So the idea of even scratching the top off the surface is it's impossible.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03So we've spent many hours joking about how the hell are we supposed to get this trowel in the ground to make the hole? Um it's on the kit list, as is some peo bags and things like that. You've just got to try and be responsible, right? The the main the main stuff for the bat, you know, the the the cook system is less of an issue now because I think I'm pretty sure Lindley's Lindley's removed it.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03So I'm not going to go into that, but the sleep system is can I just stop you there?
SPEAKER_02I'd like to go into it. The reason that is I know you have you ever brewed up in the spine?
SPEAKER_03Um yes, I have. It wasn't my kit. Oh, right. I was brewing up for someone else with their kit. They were just in a bit of trouble. Oh right. Um I use a simple butane gas canister from GSI, small one, an Alpkit Kraku stove, which screws is tiny, absolutely tiny, and screws straight onto the top of the gas bottle, and then a GSI bugaboo titanium cup to boil water. It'll boil water in freezing conditions in about three or four minutes. Um the it's the handle is flimsy and it's bloody hot, so you need to be careful taking it off.
SPEAKER_02But if you want hot water Well, I'm dead that the my question really is, although it's not on, is it again one of these things that now it's not on the kit check? Is it something that you should you you might, you know, if you're gonna be out there for six or seven days?
SPEAKER_03I mean that it's not it's not on the kit check list now because for many years many of us have pointed out to Linley that the idea, like if you're in real trouble, if you're in safety difficulty, you are not physically capable of pro doing that. I'll have a cup of tea. It's difficult enough, yeah, fresh. Right. So it's ridiculous to say that's there for safety. Right. If you're someone who's intending to have free stride meals, and that's absolutely part of your fuelling strategy that you're going to stop and make a free-stride meal. So Matt Matt Neil's a good example again. Matt's finished Laketon 15 times, finished the spine five times. He will absolutely carry a stove and he will absolutely use it, and he's finishing at around the same times that I am. Um he will stop in the huts on the Chevyots and make a cup of tea, he'll stop at you know, disabled loose somewhere and pop in and make hot water. That is that is absolutely worth it for him. Yeah, I'm not doing that. Um for me, I'd rather save the weight and not carry it. But if you need hot water, there are the places you can get it, the halfway checkpoints and you know, other public use areas on the way. But if you if you think that'll make a big difference to you, then it's not a huge amount of extra weight to carry. Right. I would stay away from using meth stoves. I I just don't think the chance of it leaking, the smell, the usability, the speed at which it heats the water, it's just inferior. Yeah.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_02I've also since that went off the list, and again, people have been saying on the Facebook group for the spine about um, you know, there's some super um flasks out there now that keep stuff hot for a long time. Sure. Quite lightweight, and that you know, you can get access, like you say, to hot water, certainly at the checkpoints, and then carry it in the flask. Yeah, yeah. So that's a good shout. Might be better than or it's a weight trade-off. Yeah, you know.
SPEAKER_03This is where I think adventure and comfort and enjoyment come into it more than speed. For me, it's definitely as you said, first time 116 hours with Matt was definitely about just trying to complete it. This year I went back to to run faster, and I finished in 108 hours in much worse conditions than 2023, much more difficult. So a significant improvement. I'm I'm c I'm not anywhere near the front of the race, but I am in that bracket of I am going fast and light, and I'm not intending to mess about or stop at all between checkpoints if I can avoid it. So I I am I always caveat with my suggestions are not for everyone. Yeah, I am definitely giving you advice more from the fast and light side than I'm gonna stop and have hot drinks. Whereas that hot drink could completely change your psychological outlook, it might make you safer and would be worth the investment in time, and that's a personal consideration. Sure.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Right, I think we've done that one to death then. Um handheld GPS.
SPEAKER_03Am I right in thinking that's now off as well?
SPEAKER_02Okay, right. Which I don't have. Okay. Um personally I think I mean I'm quite happy to get one. Um yeah, I just think it's another piece. You know, you've got the three systems and your mapping compass, sure. Your GP GPX file on the watch and a handheld system, why not go belt and braces?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think, again, if you're going fast and light and you've got the the fastest, lightest way is to just use your watch and buy a better watch with mapping. Yeah, the secondary option is to buy a bike computer. So I've got a Garmin. I've forgotten the name of it. It's about a hundred and ten, hundred and twenty quid, and it's one of those bike computers I use it for a bike computer that you clip onto the front of the handlebars, it weighs about 80 grams, and it has all the mapping and the ability, it has an app system, so you can get latitude and longitude, which is what you need to be able to tell them. Yeah. Um and so that passes kit check and is really, really light.
SPEAKER_02That's a great bit of advice.
SPEAKER_03However, if you're actually someone who is looking to hold a GPX handheld throughout the race and navigate off of it rather than your watch or that, um, then one of the more robust, you know, Garmin type E-Trex things are the way to go. Okay. Um but they are three, four hundred pounds plus you're buying the maps on top of that. They're much heavier, but they are obviously basically bomb-proof. They're there for all weather, all conditions.
SPEAKER_02Um But do they burn somebody tell me they're both?
SPEAKER_03They take double AA batteries, yeah, they go through and fuss. So you'd need restock of batteries in each place.
SPEAKER_02So that's another consideration. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Uh the thing I haven't got to is lighting. Reach the top of the head. Which I forgot. Um so I've got two very old um the uh I mean anybody into Cycling would know this brand probably, but not in the ultra world. Uh, because I don't think I've ever seen anybody else ever use them. Uh they're exposure light, exposure to bike lights more than anything else. Um they're rechargeables. Um they're a single LED, which is probably not great, but I've never had one go on me, and I've got two of them. Um but I think the batteries will get killed in the cold, to be honest. Sure, they are exposed on the on the side of the head. Um so I don't know, what's your recommendation?
SPEAKER_03Uh I mean, uh again, I I I I'm sponsored by Petzel. So you know, I I caveat this with that. I've seen some excellent lamps from other brands that other people use this year that really impressed me in terms of lighting and output.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03If if I've got a Petzel now RL on low and mid reactive setting, so that's adjusting to ambient light, yeah. I know I know on the low setting I can get a complete night out of one battery. Twenty hours actually. Actually, um, and that will have me. You don't need a big light, you are walking. You know, there's no seriously technical ground that you're coming down at pace. You do not need 800 lumens on the front of your head, you need two to three hundred. So the Petzel now are L it's 135 quid. The spare batteries, I think, are 55. I'm wearing one from the start, it's doing me a full night, um, and I've always got a spare in my back. So I've essentially got two nights of battery guaranteed at all times in all weather.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03There's to me is absolutely pointless looking at anything else.
SPEAKER_02How many hours are you getting out of that?
SPEAKER_03Twenty hours. Twenty hours, one charge. Yep. And but again, we've had I've been using this in the coldest conditions they've had there, period. Okay. Um other lamps are available. The Petzel Now RL downsides are that I find it quite uncomfortable in the front of my head. So the with the spine it's fine because you've got a hat on underneath it. I don't like wearing the now RL for extended periods without a hat on. So for example, I ran Lav Radar at the weekend and I had six hours of darkness, and I found the Now R L uncomfortable because technical descending at pace is bouncing and it actually was quite sore. So I would have worn the Swift, which is a softer headband lamp, actually, if it was any longer. Because I've got a hat on, the now RL works. Um battery system, light system as well, so it gives you a really good idea of how much charge is in the lamp. Um I I honestly wouldn't look any further. What I would say is if you've got existing head torches that you're happy with, is test them. Leave them out in cold weather overnight and see how much battery. Yeah. Because you want to be sure you've got redundancy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, I mean, I'm probably likely to buy the pretzel and then take this. This will go anyway. Sure. You know, why not have if you've got to have it.
SPEAKER_03Always have a spare head torch in your bag. If you fall over and crack the lamp or it just fails for whatever reason, it's fine having spare batteries, but it you know, Jack, if you if you haven't got light, you're going nowhere. Again, it's expensive, but this stuff it will get used again and again in your racing and adventures. You know, it's not. Yeah, we've talked about buying all this stuff. I mean, clearly you can get a lot of stuff secondhand. You can ask friends to borrow kit that you only intend to use for this one race, you know, spare headlamp patches, whatever else. There are ways around it, but it it is an expensive business. There's not really too many short ones.
SPEAKER_02No, yeah, I think most people appreciate that when they put their name down to the event. That it's you know, there's a cost outside of just entering.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And there is in most most of the bigger events that you do. So and so, you know, for some people they're lifetime things, aren't they? It's the big adventure. I mean, I'm not intending doing if I get through the spine, I won't be moving on to anything. Well, T D T D G tour de Gion would be next.
SPEAKER_03And there's a lot of crossovering kit between those two things, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, thank you, James. We've covered everything. I am now going to um literally use you as a personal shopper and go round and shopping to show you round what bits um extra I think.
SPEAKER_03I mean, just looking at what we've talked about, you've got you've got one round and in several places two rounds of all the core kit. There's a few pieces of clothing you'll probably need. Yeah. We need to talk about um you know, pack viability, I suppose. And then it's heck it's just having gloves and socks that you know give you some redundancy in really, really bad weather.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And uh well, just thanks very much for your time and any other time that you spend. Um and you know, all everybody out there should be uh giving it some forethought now, I think, rather than waiting.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and if you've got questions around will it pass kit, I mean, we're not very salesy, I'm not very good at selling stuff. If people have got kit, like you've got this jacket here, and it's good, we will tell you. Um what I can't do is tell you something's gonna pass kit check. That needs to go to Lindley at spinerace.com. You need to message him, ask that question saying, because I'm not gonna sign off on kit that he could change his mind on. Yeah. However, we are here for general advice, and if you've got kit and you're unsure about your quality-wise, bring it to us on a shop open day and we'll have a look for you. Brilliant.
SPEAKER_02Well good. Okay, thank you very much, James. Pleasure, Kev, thank you as I go along. Um, needless to say, I wasn't able to leave James's shop without uh spending a bit of cash. Um, and I want to be a bit open about this because people say, Oh, it costs a load to do these things, and nobody ever tells you what it really costs. I mean, the race itself costs 1,345 quid to enter to start with. Um, and I just parted with over 1200 quid on equipment that I didn't have, and I'm still not there yet. I think it's fair to say that James didn't sell me anything that he didn't think I needed. Uh, he was just helping me fill the gaps of knowledge and gaps in equipment along the way, and I'm grateful to him for that. So, until the next aid station, here's Kev saying bye for now.
SPEAKER_00To the next bloody hesitation.