Growing Ecommerce – The Retail Growth Podcast

The “Amazon Killer”? How JD's Joybuy Invades Europe | PLUS: Meta's Zero-Click Threat

• Smarter Ecommerce • Season 4 • Episode 32

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0:00 | 34:22

Is the “Zero-Click” shopping era finally here, and are European retailers ready for a three-way war between Amazon, Temu, and JD.com’s Joybuy?

In this episode of Growing Ecommerce, Mike Ryan and Chris Scharmueller unpack a huge week in e-commerce. First: Meta’s new Stripe partnership for in-app checkout. With OpenAI and Google both struggling to make native checkout work, can Meta finally crack the “zero-click” model and keep shoppers fully inside its platform?

Then comes the real clash of the titans. JD.com has launched Joybuy in Europe, going straight after Amazon and Temu. We share exclusive Google Ads data showing how aggressively Joybuy is already outranking incumbents. But unlike Temu, Joybuy isn’t just burning cash for growth. It’s building a sustainable base and investing in local logistics, making it a serious hybrid threat.

Finally, Mike shares updated market penetration numbers for Amazon and Temu across Europe. The picture is clear: Amazon dominates wealthy Western European markets, while Temu has seized the Central and Eastern European markets Amazon largely ignored.

📊 Key Takeaways & SEO Insights:

  • Meta’s In-App Checkout: Meta is working with Stripe on native checkout via ACP instead of Google’s UCP. If it works, platforms gain even more leverage by keeping both shoppers and customer data in-house.
  • The Joybuy Threat: JD’s Joybuy is taking a more disciplined, Amazon-like route into Europe. It’s setting efficient growth baselines while aggressively outranking established retailers in Google Ads.
  • The Amazon/Temu Divide: Comparing Monthly Active Users to total internet users reveals a sharp split. Amazon leads in high-GDP Western Europe, while Temu dominates much of Central and Eastern Europe, including striking penetration in Poland.
  • The Chinese “Involution”: Intense competition in China is pushing giants like JD, Alibaba, and PDD (Temu) to seek growth in Europe—raising the pressure on local retailers..

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Intro: Meta's New "Zero-Click" Checkout with Stripe

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to Growing E-Commerce. I'm one of your hosts, Mike Ryan. With me is the other one of our hosts, Chris. Hey, so Chris, we've got a couple of interesting topics today. Always. We're going to talk about a new but old but new but fake new zero-click experience in meta-ads. No way. Yep. Let's talk about that. And then we're going to have a couple of follow-ups on some popular past topics, one of which being the market penetration of Timu in Europe. And we're going to compare that to Amazon. And we have a lot more data with us this time. And we mentioned a couple of weeks back that another Chinese giant JD has launched their Joy By e-commerce platform in Europe. And so we've got a little bit more data on how that's shaping up as well. Clash of the Tights.

SPEAKER_02

Joy By, Amazon Temo. Holy smokes.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Interesting. Let's get into it. Do you want to start with? Should we slit meta? Yeah, meta. Why not?

SPEAKER_00

Let's start with meta. Because you know, last episode we were talking about some of these zero-click features inside of OpenAI. We've talked about these features inside of Google AI mode. And now let's talk about it in meta. What a surprise. Meta is always going down this throat. As we've said on here, it's a it's a war for the data and the control of the customer and stuff like that. And um for these platforms, it's very attractive if the transaction can exist inside of the platform.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. For obvious reasons.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And for brands and retailers, it looks a bit differently. I think some view it, you know, it can be just, you can view it as distribution. Um if you're, you know, if you're a brand, I think that can make sense. Um you don't need to own all of your customer data. Uh it's nice when you do. But as a retailer, I think it's as a multi-brand retailer. They they need that data, in my opinion, a whole lot more. A whole lot more.

SPEAKER_02

I think they will be they are way more relying on on this type of traffic. Um because you you just don't have the brand power compared to to a D2C player.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um, yeah.

ACP vs. UCP: The battle of the e-commerce protocols

SPEAKER_00

So Yeah, and and it's just a yeah, it's a bit of a different dynamic. But just to we won't spend a lot of time on this, but um basically Mata has partnered with Stripe, uh, the payments processor to deliver an in-add checkout experience. Um great idea. Yeah. I mean, we also talked a bit a while back that Google is working on a landing page ad checkout thing. So we see where this technology will go. But in the intermediate phase, um it's just a checkout. Yeah. Like you click you click on an ad, and rather than clicking out to the advertiser's website or the merchant's website, you're able to complete your purchase in there. Um, and so this is not a novel experience. Um, stuff like this has been around since Bion Google. Meta had their own technology exactly like this. ChatGPT tried tried to watch us here. But now um it's it's a new attempt and it's a partnership with Stripe. And this is where, to me, the interesting part here is that um Stripe is one of the one of the main partners on ACP. So not Google UCP, which is the universal commerce protocol. Is that what it stands for? Yeah. This is the the what the agentic commerce protocol from OpenAI, Stripe, and other partners. Um so, you know, we just talked in the last episode that OpenAI is in a lot of pain with their whole commerce initiative so far. This is a a plus for them. It's a good time. Yeah, because Meta is is a big, big player, of course. And anything that they do on ACP instead of UCP is somehow it's a big win. Yeah. We've talked about that before the war of the standards. The war standards. Like Tesla versus LSE. Yes. Yeah. Now now we have Tesla versus BYD. Yes. I missed the good old days.

SPEAKER_02

Uh, there are there are always battles for for, of course, uh having the best cryp on the market. And these protocols down the line, future of e-commerce, which will be some in some way, shape, or form, probably agentic. These protocols will make a huge difference to to the dominance of the big players. And I think, I mean, we we we've briefly touched touched that top topic. Um, I think last week, Mike. Uh, for me, I I look, I'm not into these protocols. I don't know which protocol is better, UCP versus ACP. UCP. UCP? Okay. I thought about that too. But man, I think the very obvious reason why Meta is going with ACP is because UCP is coming from Google.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And uh I think Meta just, you know, maybe Sak sat in the room and said, look, I mean, who which which one is the bigger competitor? OpenEI or Google?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Fuck it. Let's let's go with ACP of OpenEI. Yeah. Because that the threat is just not as big. And I really I really believe that that was one decision criteria why they why they went with with ACP, combined with the fact that Stripe, of course, is part of this whole whole protocol development. Um but for me, the more interesting question here is Mike, uh, again, you are the technical guy. Why do I need uh a protocol here? I mean, where's the chantic layer to to this whole feature? It's just the checkout, right? I'm I'm not telling my assistant to to do the whole purchasing power. It's just the checkout. Yeah, why why there's a protocol in in place here? I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

All right, so far I don't I don't it's a great question.

SPEAKER_02

The one question Mike doesn't know. I'm I'm so happy.

SPEAKER_00

Finally, finally Well, I mean, it's a great question, and it really makes me wonder why. Because I don't know. Maybe they have something planned in the future, maybe that this these ads can then maybe there's a more agentic workflow planned in the future, but you know me, I don't even like that word agenc. And this it is definitely technology that you can build without generative AI, and it's been built before and it worked perfectly fine, right? Yeah, from a technical standpoint, it worked fine. There's not a reason why you need this category of technology to do it. Um, so it's maybe with an eye toward future integrations. Yeah, that might make sense. But um, but it does remind me of like, you know, in the kind of the crypto hype phase where things would be built on blockchain because it had the work. For the sake of yeah, or like, you know, things would be made in the metaverse that work perfectly fine in the analog world just for the sake of that. So it it feels a bit hype ish to me, because from today's standpoint, this has nothing to do with the IT, of course.

SPEAKER_02

Um we probably learn more why why they did it. For me, the the I mean look, the the major takeaway here is okay, yes, Google uh um meta is also testing the zero-click event. Fine. Um I think it was overdue and then yeah, they've done it before in the past. So I mean they're they're just testing the waters. Yeah, for all the obvious reasons that there are just massive advantages for the platforms to have this control over the purchasing uh journey. For me, that and that the major takeaway is that they are going with ACP, not UCP.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah.

Will Meta succeed where OpenAI & Walmart failed?

SPEAKER_02

But the most interesting question will be is this working? We talked about that in the last episode, right? Um one of the giants testing the ink chat uh purchase uh option with with OpenAI, Walmart. They completely failed here. Not Walmart, basically the function of or the product feature of ChatGPD. We talked about that the conversion rates were 3x lower. I'm super interested in in the question, is this going to work for Meta? Yeah. Because if this test fails as well, another another very telling sign that I don't know. Yeah, maybe we are not ready by we are, I mean bad consumers.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah, I mean the it's kind of a crowded graveyard at this point, because really, I mean past uh like Google has tried similar tech, didn't work out um without AI and didn't work out. Um Meta has tried this in the past, didn't work out. ChatGPD, OpenI. Didn't work out. And others, I mean, one of I think TikTok has something like this, and it's one of the only counterexamples. And it's probably to do with their overall user experience and you know the impulse buying and stuff that goes, it's probably about the total packet. Um but also like you know, retailers don't again, they don't necessarily want this to secure it. It's it's actually a leverage moment where the platforms like when Google tried this before, they had no leverage and they were trying to charge commissions and they even they even gave it away for free. And then the retailers said they said no for obvious reasons. Yeah. And so, you know, what's different this time? They have they maybe have the leverage of these new AI contexts and experiences where theoretically there's more intent, theoretically, a superior user experience can be better performance. Yeah, but it will like people talk is the e-commerce experience perfect? No. I it drives me crazy sometimes too. I I want um in in many ways AI to succeed and at least improving, if not replacing, but at least improving this. And the question is yeah, how will this balance up? Because that there needs to be this consumer experience that works in order for that leverage to persist so that retailers.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, and and and let's let's translate this into the to the to the to the language of of let's say our clients or any online retailers, retailers in general, better user experience. For the sake of better user experience. I I think online retailers won't care that much about that either. It has to translate into better performance.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00

Why should I do it? Right? Well, I I I give away control. Well, I I do I'm gonna disagree with you there because if they're starting to draw users away, if they're just starting to own if if users start saying no to visiting websites, and if Google is controlling the search interface and pulling them into AI mode, then they that's why they won't have a choice.

SPEAKER_02

The big platforms won't need a leverage if they are forcing right or move moving users away from the websites. But again, uh there there's a big question if this is going to happen. But let's assume this is not going to happen.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I if and if I have a choice as retailer, I will look at the numbers. And if they're not better, why should I do it?

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Right? I mean, this is so I'm super interested in in yeah, the outcomes here. Yeah. Do you do you know anything about the scale? How how big this will be?

SPEAKER_00

Um I mean, not exactly. I think so. Uh I believe they're starting with Facebook, then move to Instagram, and then it's gonna be, you'll end up being able to optimize this across their full experience, and which could maybe even be ads and WhatsApp in some markets and so on. Okay. But um, I'm sure it's all gonna end up, you know, if they get their way, and or I I'm sure their vision imagines that this will be inside of Advantage Plus in this very antenna automated way, the way that we know.

SPEAKER_02

Man, I I don't I don't want I won't I don't want to be too positive about us, but man, everything we stated probably maybe a year ago is that the future of e-commerce that the serup click events will will now pop up again. Yeah, uh we are right there. And what we also stated is is is it's not going to happen overnight. You see the struggles in in adoption. Um and Meta tries it again. So I'm really it's it it will be it will be very telling. Yeah. Because I I see better chances for Meta to make this work. But yeah, we'll find out.

JD.com launches Joybuy in Europe (The Anti-Temu Strategy)

SPEAKER_00

No numbers as of today, unfortunately. Nope. Uh we'll we'll keep following this and uh we'll let you know if as more becomes available, more develops. Um but yeah, I mean totally. Um, but let's just uh quickly go through a couple more. We got two other giants. Yeah, yeah, some some follow-ups here. So uh actually I want to let's start with Joy Bye because it's um it's a it's a shorter one here. Um I I mentioned in the past, so JD um has done uh market launch in in Europe with Joy By, um starting with Germany, uh UK, Netherlands, France, I think that was all of them. And directly competing with Temu, basically, right? And Amazon too. And Amazon too. It's I I actually view it as m somehow a bit more Amazon-like than Simul like in terms of the assortment and the value proposition. But yeah, competing with them and every other everyone else in tweet. Yeah. But um and you know, so of course, the first thing that we did was look at see how much what what's going on with their ads. Um and um, yeah, we've got updated data there. So um as it turns out, they started out the month very strong in the month of March. Um, very, very strong, um, considering how new it was and that these are brand new campaigns they're turning on, brand new markets. Um, and what I did, I've I will put this on screen, but I I took the first 30 days of advertising uh from Timu in Europe and I'm comparing that now. And so you can see why uh some episodes back we were a bit concerned, a bit concerned raising our eyebrows because they were starting out at a level that was actually more aggressive than Timu. Um but then they kind of it it's it hasn't progressed. Um they've they've reached a level, so you see that they have a different strategy, a different ambition level than Timu here. Um that's the point.

SPEAKER_02

May I jump in here? Because for me, this this that this chart is super interesting because they they they had this this big big bang start, you know. Um no s no surprise here because I think their watchests are as deep as as Timo's, maybe even bigger and deeper. Yeah, they have deep pockets.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, for sure. And they have a lot of uh products to match against Square's and all this.

SPEAKER_02

So they they they they could could basically play the same game as Timo. But I and of course there are there are a multitude of reasons why the curves are uh like Yara, but one possibility is that they really are going for a different strategy, which is let's let's establish a base and let's let let's let's establish certain efficiency levels which which have a certain possibility for us or probability for us that this is sustainable, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean not like Tain or they're losing, I don't know if it's still true, but peak they lost I don't know 30 30 bucks per conversion. Yeah, yeah. Can you imagine that?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So I think this could be uh a derivation from for for me that they are playing a different game. They could could scale if they would like to, yeah, but they are trying to establish a more efficient basis, so to speak.

The Data: Joybuy's aggressive Google Ads outranking metrics

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that they and they want to scale from there. I think that's almost certainly true. Like Timu was um really we talked they didn't they were just throwing money. They were just throwing money. It was Google's dream come true. And meta as well. And um, but yeah, they were just spending an awful lot of money, and it seemed like they had no regard for efficiency in a conventional sense whatsoever. They were also they they weren't even trying to send these people um to their website, actually. They wanted app users. And so and JD, of course, wants app users too, but they have to me, uh it it looks to me, I I don't know the most about their business model yet, but it looks to me like their website is uh much more important to them uh than it is like to than it than Timu's website is to Timu. Um but still uh Timu was just trying to buy market share. And I think that JD is operating more like a conventional. Like a convention here. A normal advertiser. Let's call it this. But one thing that I will say, although although um the percentage of advertisers and this dynamic could always change, but the percenter of advertis of advertisers hasn't been going vertical like it did for Timu, they are getting more effective. So what we see is that an initially, like um, if you look at this, there's an auction metric Google provides called outranking, and it shows how often you are in a stronger position than a given competitor. And so the median advertiser Can we throw up the chalking? Yeah, we'll put it on, yeah. Uh the median advertiser that was um competing against Joy By, uh initially they were outranking Joy By like two-thirds of the time. So they were quite dominant relative to Joy By. But that keeps trending down like over time, it went bel it's been below 50%. So uh that means it's now a coin toss. Who's going to be in a stronger position here? Or and actually Joy Ba is winning that coin toss though.

SPEAKER_02

It seems like they're winning it, yeah. So it will get worse from here. Yeah. What what I think. I think so. And this is I think this is also a major takeaway. So for for the for the for the poor ones who are who have now already uh market to share with with with Troy Bye, um, they are doing it quite well in the auctions they want to be, uh it seems. And it it's not not not going going anywhere. So Mike, because you you brought up the the concerns we had um, I don't know, two or three episodes ago. Very frankly speaking, this is not I mean my concerns are still big because if if if there's I think this strategy has a bigger chance of really winning in the long run compared to Timo because they are now establishing efficiency levels, and so and once they hit this wheat spot and have enough trust, yeah, they can scale, I assume. So I I'm not sure if this is a good good sign.

SPEAKER_00

No, I I I think they're they're a bit more of a serious player somehow. Like we talked about this in the past. Um, I mean it's it's pretty crazy, actually. But what we saw with with Timu at their most delirious heights of ad spend, um, where you know there would be auctions and Timu would have um five out of eight visible positions or something like that in a shopping in a shopping um overall ad unit. Um like it was the trust was so low in Timu that it actually had a halo effect for everyone else in the auction. So we saw that their cost per acquisition actually improved when Timu was was increasing spend. And I don't think that's gonna be the case here. I think Joy Buy uh it's a new brand. People will need to establish the trust, but you go on there and it feels like a pretty much legit website. There's a lot of AI-generated images on there that are iffy, but it it feels way more premium or or reputable than Timu does. Yes.

SPEAKER_02

And we must not forget that I think also a strong sign that they they want to play this game differently, yeah, is is the acquisition of MediaMarket. I think this is they are they are in here for I think a longer run. And again, yeah, the the the the the the signals are quite clear. And for the for the typical European retailer, I don't know if this is a good sign. Yeah. Because that the scale will happen for sure.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

The relief I don't your take on it by of course the the the the broad in CPC inflation is if if they keep it these at these levels and it it they won't spike from one day to another, the the CPC inflation won't be as hard driven by them. Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_00

Or are yeah, it it it well it it depend it will take more time, but um it you know down the line it will happen. Yeah, and Teamu redefined what it meant to have a rapid market entry because Amazon back in the days, um you know, in 2018 or so when they really started spending Google shopping, uh they they got quite dominant over the course of like three or four months, and that was already astounding. Whereas Timu did it in one or two months. Um but but that was painful back then with the CPCs when Amazon entered in. And you know, I my concern is that Joy Buy is not a it's not an a Teamu 2.0, but rather an Amazon 2.0 2.0 or some kind of like hybrid of the two is what they look like to me. Yeah. And that's a pretty terrifying idea. That's terrifying.

SPEAKER_02

That's terrifying. Because Amazon won't won't hold back here, that's for sure.

Amazon vs. Temu: New Market Penetration Math Revealed

Why Amazon lost Eastern & Central Europe to Temu

SPEAKER_00

Well, yeah, I mean, it's gonna be interesting. I mean, let's get into the next topic. Maybe a good segue. Yeah, Amazon. I think so. Because what we've done, we talked a while back, um, and uh we talk we talked about basically um Team Us market share per European market. Yes. Um, based on their monthly active users. What I did there, I've improved this uh this math a bit or the metric a bit. And I've also I'm caught gonna call it something different now, too. Um, because I know I was very hyped in that episode, but even not only AI can be confidently wrong, humans can too. But the the funny thing is that humans will will are better reflecting. Yeah, are better reflecting. They can understand and they can improve as well. But um yeah, so what I've done is taken uh Timu's monthly active users that they submit to the European Commission, and not only they, but many other platforms do, including Amazon. So I've also taken Amazon's monthly active users. And we could repeat this exercise, by the way, for a lot of platforms that are required to do this kind of thing. Um and then I've divided it by the total number of internet users in the market. Um, and I'm calling that market penetration, or we can call it digital reach or whatever you want to call it. But um and the because when I when I did the math that I did last time for Amazon, their penetration was more than 100%. some cases because monthly active users is a much broader users are a much broader metric than actual purchasers. And previously I used purchasers as the denominator, which was not correct. But so what we've got now though, I've we can compare the both of them and we have this improved math and we can look at this. I've got a whole range of markets listed. Yeah, exactly. So you can see how they compete across all of Europe, which I think is quite interesting. It's super interesting because there's a pattern. Yeah. I mean I think it's visible to anyone uh but in case it's not you'll see that and and to also people who are listening um I've got this this chart sorted by GDP. So it goes from the highest GDP countries to the smallest. And Amazon is way more dominant in these high GDP high GDP markets. They also tend to be the more Western markets in Europe. And of course these are all markets where Amazon has a domain or they're satellites of those markets. For example Austria is not a big deal. Who Austria? Us Austrians here we're not a high GDP country. We are actually per capita. Per capita okay okay um now we can get into yeah no no yes yes per capita's true that's true but anyway the point is we are we're uh also a neighbor of Amazon of Germany which has the Amazon.de domain um and you'll see one of the biggest markets for yeah and you'll see a similar pattern with like Belgium is a satellite of of Netherlands actually they have their own Amazon domain at this point too but um it and so on and so forth. But um yeah meanwhile Timu is very dominant in CEE markets as we call them Central and Eastern Europe. Very dominant. Surprise question mark well no I guess because Amazon has kind of neglected those markets. Yes I think yeah exactly and I think to me what the takeaway here though is that like this is this is a service model difference because um you know Amazon has a very particular service model that they want to fill or a very particular value proposition which is about price and speed and convenience. So they make these heavy logistical and last mile and fulfillment investments. So it's much more than a domain to them each of these they're really a hub. Uh Timu on the other hand they've this is increasingly untrue but historically and till now they they haven't focused on speed yes all about the price or on local fulfillment they focus on price and and just to fully acknowledge they're making these investments they're slowly changing that strategy. But you can see how they've they've been able to be much more opportunistic about all of Europe. There's no market that's neglected by Timu and there are many markets that are neglected by Amazon.

SPEAKER_02

And just talking about my network um Timo is I mean I think there's no no feeling of shame anymore buying at Timo unfortunately I think we we talked about that the ethics of buying at Timo ethics yeah and again why why why why buy with with it on a Chinese platform because they they they don't let let us participate in our market at all.

SPEAKER_00

But I don't feel good about shopping from Amazon either a bit better so a bit better a bit better.

SPEAKER_02

I was always happy to buy at MediaMark but now they are owned by GD so I don't know where where should I buy it I still like buying from media mark but yeah I'm a big fan of media no but coming back to to that I think this is the but the the perfect reason that the product Amazon is offering has just a better product market fit with rather high GDP countries. And yeah Timo had a different product strategy product value proposition which was a better fit for rather low low GDP market. The big question now is the growth strategy for Timo is is a quite straightforward one. Let's attack Amazon in their their big markets Germany Netherlands and co what is the answer of Amazon? Yeah and we talked about that a year ago right what what the the the the price as a wallet proposition for Amazon has always been one but it was the combination of convenience service delivery time and so forth. How much wiggle room do they have also in terms of how they want to to to maybe reshape their assortment yeah because I think just just lowering the price won't make it to to really cut into market share of Timo yeah and there are some markets where Timu has really landed. We talked about Poland right yeah exactly market penetration sorry 71% yeah um what what what is your take on on this on on Amazon strategy here?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah I I think Amazon is in quite a bind if they if that's their next plan and there are it's long been rumored and these are kind of credentialed rumors that they that they want to do more here. But the the tricky thing is like you know maybe they can use their Hall product or something Amazon hall to get uh better penetration there. But it just won't be as cheap as doing it was before because I think they were always a bit shy of the very strong incumbents there, like EMAC for example um or Allegro um in Poland. And the this Timu was not shy about this in the least and now you those those homegrown giants are still there. Timu is there we see also we've mentioned in the past that um you know Alibaba invests in these markets with AliExpress and trendy oil um so there's a the the in general East Asia is very focused on these markets and Amazon has to fight much harder to to enter there. Much harder. So it's going to cost them a lot more than if they did this four years ago because they're you know they're they're they for years used Poland as a fulfillment hub for Germany actually basically for cost reasons. And so they were super well set up when they launched a Poland domain. They could have come there yeah but but they they just somehow didn't quite do that. And they could have then used Poland in term as in turn as a hub for for further markets and but they they've kind of missed that chance to do it at a low cost or at a relatively low cost.

SPEAKER_02

Because I I think they respected the homegrown players here. And um we we talked about EMAC in Romania Allegra in Poland Netolitz by the way same thing on the on the on the other side of Europe. But um Mike I mean uh circling back to to to to that um uh question what what can Amazon do here I I think one limiting factor to to to the options Amazon has is and call me crazy but Amazon is a conventional normal player yeah uh meaning that the their shareholder interests they they have certain prof prof profitability ranges to operate within I I don't know how much this accounts for Temo I believe that Temo just has maybe not deeper watches but the there's just not so much pressure on becoming profitable or being profitable going into markets. That's why they play this game as ruthlessly as they play it right now. Yes and that's a limiting factor to Amazon because they have they have guardrills to operate with it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah and I mean and you know PDD the owner of uh teamu is uh is also publicly listed and but they're let's just say that the transparency standards and stuff completely different. Yeah it's all very different legally for for sure.

"Involution": Why China's economy is forcing European expansion

SPEAKER_02

But but also yeah in general when we talk about East Asia um coming into into into Europe because there's a tendency also to open more there's more um also offline it's not just online there's more offline moves at also the acquisition of media market uh you know there's this uh term involution that affects China that it they their economy is very involuted um we talk about how big the Chinese market is and that it sometimes it feels like they don't need the West um you know huah after they got sanctioned and stuff like that they became incredibly successful like that that was a speed bump for them and just look at the technology at the end it's astounding but in general these markets uh like China is very self-competitive very involuted um and they they really need to look at these other markets for sure for for growth and you see that across all different verticals and industries I mean look car industry BYD yeah they they they can't grow shit anymore in the whole market yeah uh what are they doing they flood the the the the markets in Europe um US not not yet but maybe let's see what happens here and and and the e-commerce uh industry same thing yeah that the big giants they see Europe as as as as lunch yeah yeah and yeah I mean it it won't won't won't won't won't won't get easier here because Amazon will fight back to a certain degree and and being in the middle between Amazon JD Timo is not not not a good place to be we have to watch how it's going to evolve this way soon we'll be talking about like some uh UCP type standard from like Timu or something TCP Timu commerce for stolen we'll be talking about agentic teamu before the year's end prediction I haven't bought that Timo and I will not buy a Timo yeah here's my promise but Timo won't really give a shit about my they don't care.

SPEAKER_00

Here let's we'll we'll we gotta wrap this episode up but uh I will say I saw some new research research from Google and I don't think I can put this on screen I would need to check with our friends at Google first. Um but you know to describe it at a high level there I first off I thought it was interesting how much they talked about uh teamu and some of this research um there it's very top of mind for them too when they talk with their retail partners um because it's top of mind for their retailers and there are these persistent trust issues like there's a lot of search volume um related to Timu with words like trust and you know safe and safety and all this kind of negative connotations people are very unsure. But um a lot a lot of Germans for example are buying from Timu and when they do their satisfaction is actually quite high and their willingness to um recommend Timu to a friend is high. And so it's working.

SPEAKER_02

The product works yes no no no no doubt about that and again their drug their growth path I think is more straightforward than than Amazon's in this industry. They just invest shitload of money in in in making the convenience and delivery better. And then Amazon has has a real challenger at our hands.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah it is what it is buying the mix enjoy buying the mix yeah again it won't get it won't get easy AliExpress no it's it won't get easy yeah just I'm just worried about all this marketplace concentration and stuff it's in the AI everyone it's it's yeah but we managed hey Chris this is we did it we ended on a negative note thing uh again we love it I think we went a couple episodes where we did on the positive note I didn't feel quite same afterwards I don't like that yeah all right thank you Chris this has been another episode of Growing E commerce brought to you by Smarter Ecommerce also known as Sneck to learn more visit smarter ecommerce.com and as always if you enjoyed this episode if you enjoyed that sinking feeling in your chest when we end on a negative note please share the gloom with friends on social media our coworker give us a five star rating on your favorite podcast platform it means a lot thank you