Growing Ecommerce – The Retail Growth Podcast

OpenAI's "Delusional" $100B Ad Target | Plus: The Fall of Allbirds

• Smarter Ecommerce • Season 4 • Episode 33

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In this episode of Growing E-commerce, Mike Ryan and Chris Scharmueller unpack two massive stories highlighting the current realities—and potential delusions—of the tech and retail sectors.

First, we discuss the quiet and staggering fall of Allbirds. Once a Silicon Valley staple and D2C darling valued at a massive $4 billion, the sustainable shoe company has reportedly sold for a fraction of that cost. We explore what their trajectory tells us about the overestimation of the D2C model and why the fundamentals of traditional retail still matter.

Then, we dive back into the OpenAI ad platform. OpenAI recently released a bullish projection: they expect their ad business to cross $100 billion in revenue by 2030. We take a critical look at the current state of their ad interface—which currently resembles Google Ads from a decade ago—and discuss why hitting that revenue target will require an unprecedented, disruptive evolution of their product.

Key Takeaways:

  • The D2C Reality Check: Allbirds' massive devaluation highlights a broader trend: many D2C brands were valued as high-growth tech companies rather than traditional retailers. As market conditions shift, the core competencies of traditional retail—and the value of retail middlemen—are becoming apparent again.
  • OpenAI's Steep Climb: While OpenAI projects a massive $100 billion ad business by 2030, their current platform is rudimentary. It operates on a flight-based approach with a fixed $60 CPM and relies on basic keyword matching, limiting its appeal primarily to large brand advertisers rather than the performance-focused mass market needed for that scale of growth.
  • The Comparability Problem: OpenAI's ad platform will inevitably be compared to highly sophisticated, always-on ecosystems like Google Ads and Meta. To capture significant market share and reach their revenue goals, OpenAI must evolve beyond a basic UI and deliver a product that proves strong incrementality and Return on Ad Spend (ROAS).

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About Smarter Ecommerce (smec):

Smarter Ecommerce (smec) empowers e-commerce brands with AI-driven PPC automation that optimizes for profit and business outcomes while maintaining strategic control.

The platform activates first-party data - profit margins, customer lifetime value, and key business metrics - to automate campaign optimization toward goals like profitability and efficient growth, while detailed campaign insights provide full transparency and enable PPC teams to focus on strategic oversight rather than manual execution.

As a Google Premier Partner and three-time Microsoft Retail Partner of the Year, smec manages over €500 million in ad spend and drives €5B+ in annual e-commerce revenue for 350+ global retail clients including THG, Snipes, REWE, and Intersport.

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Intro

SPEAKER_01

Welcome to another episode of Growing E commerce. I'm one of your hosts, Mike Ryan, and with me is Christian. Enjoying a Red Bull.

SPEAKER_00

Are we allowed to say that? Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Sure, sure. Okay, sure. We've talked about it's you know it's an Australian product. We're proud of it. No sponsorship. Man, the day we get a Red Bull sponsorship, we'll have to like do the podcast while we're jumping off a plane on the parachute or something. We we we did it, and then I think we can uh ride into the sunset. Yeah, or we need to be like, you know, uh extreme sport or something. My knees are not good for that. But on today's episode, we've got a couple of topics for you. We're gonna talk about the sale of D2C Darlene, all birds. It had to be a massive sale, I assume, right? Well, yeah, they were valued at 4 billion and then a multiple on that, or I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

At least 10 billion, but we will find out.

SPEAKER_01

And then we're gonna talk about some updates to OpenAI's ad platform, um, which we talked about one or two episodes ago. There's news, of course. It's a fast changing uh environment.

SPEAKER_00

So I assume it's a very advanced interface. You can do a lot of things.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Keep keep assuming. Yeah, keep keep assuming. You're wrong. You know what happens when you assume, right, Chris? Yes. I assume you make it you make an ass out of you and me.

The Rise and Fall of Allbirds: From a $4 Billion Valuation to a $39 Million Sale.

SPEAKER_00

Ah, okay. I didn't want to do that. Because I know better.

SPEAKER_01

Did you hear that joke?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_01

But it's a good one. Yeah. It's an old one. Let's start with Alberts. Alberts, let's jump into it. Okay. So give us some context. Uh Alberts, well, yeah. So back in the 2010s, this was like this hot D2C, digitally native um brands uh where they were just part of that you know informal dress code of Silicon Valley. Everyone in Silicon Silicon Valley, they had to be able to do that. Selling shoes, probably, right? Yeah, exactly. So yeah, some these were these uh sustainable, arguably, wool shoes. Um I think the company started in New Zealand and they got like a subsidy from the New Zealand government to use their wool or something like that. And then they attracted some capital because they were this nice profitable subsidized business.

SPEAKER_00

Then they were sent friend-based where else to you know, I mean, of course they they went there. Well, maybe that's where the confusion happened. Maybe. But uh okay. And and they were they were a darling for a long time, and the valuation peaked at 4 billion US dollars.

SPEAKER_01

4 billion, yeah. I mean, I remember there were articles back then questioning their 1 billion valuation, and then it went to 4 billion. Yeah. Um and I don't want to like uh take a like, you know, I don't want to shit on um all birds or it's what the environment was at the time. Yes. Like Warby Parker um for glasses, Casper for mattresses.

SPEAKER_00

Was the right environment for them. But yeah, okay, so four billion uh valuation, uh what's what's the selling price now? I uh again, I assume it has to be uh a solid number.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well it's uh it's a multiple. Uh because uh it's a multiple. It's 39 million though, because uh their their current value is like I don't know, 23 or 26 million or something. Okay. So there's still a multiple. Yeah, there's some kind of multiple on there.

SPEAKER_00

But they fell off a cliff. Yes, it is. Yeah, I mean that's 99% of what they have been worth, according to analysts.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I mean they fell off the cliff a long time ago, but but um I think this is just generating some buzz again because of this the sale, and it's it's not what anybody imagined or wanted.

SPEAKER_00

No, I mean uh like I said, uh uh we we talked about that not not that surprising, unfortunately, because they just had super rough years. Um mounting losses. Yeah. I think no trajectory and no plans how to to to bring this back into a certain trajectory and dynamic. Um so like you said, we're not dancing on the graves. I think and still selling a company at 36 million, uh hopefully there's there's some left for for the people hardworking people there. Yeah. Uh but it there it there it's it's telling, right? I mean there's there's more to it.

The Overestimation of the D2C Business Model.

SPEAKER_01

Sure. I I mean and in and in a different timeline, uh you know, 39 million for a s a shoe company, that's great. That's a great company. Great, yes. It's a nice little that's a nice business. That's fashion. Um but yeah, the the question is more about how we were at four billion. And that was not rational. Um and it and it's not there. I mean, they had well, it's partly they invited this a bit, of course. They had good publicists, um, they got good press. Um, but they just, you know, it was this trend that at the time. D to C was really yeah, it was a big thing. It was overestimated as a business model. Yes. We talked about this um in one of our early episodes um with Nike. Yeah, exactly. Um and so the ver the best in the game were were um under the same kind of illusion. But as we've said in the past, retail retail matters. Retailers have a value, they're not just middlemen.

SPEAKER_00

For sure. Um for sure. And I think this this is this is the biggest story uh to all the the the listeners working or owning uh retail businesses. Uh you're there for a reason, right? I mean, that the there are there are certain core competences D2C players just don't have by the nature of the business. I mean, maybe we can have another episode to talk about that um in detail again because it's more more relevant than ever. And back to Alberts, yes. I mean, look, they they were valued as a tech company. Yes. And they were operating as a shoe company. So that that I think that's where the failure lies. Can we find them?

SPEAKER_01

I'm I'm tempted, you know, I feel like you're tempted. I know. I know you're tempted to do it. I'm gonna take the debate. Is there another company which is reminds me of uh one of Chris's favorite stocks, Tesla. Yes. Uh which to which to me is an automaker valued as a tech company. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

And we debate this, you know, time is we should we we should have one episode uh just just for the sake of the correctness of Tesla's evaluation.

SPEAKER_01

Maybe maybe a Christmas episode. Dude, um I know you're gonna have like 42 slides, I'm gonna fall asleep. Like, okay, Chris, I got it.

SPEAKER_00

No, well good. But uh time time will make a fool. Uh I mean that because we Tesla it is binary. Rather, I'm wrong, I'm right, or I'm completely wrong.

SPEAKER_01

One of us is right, one of us is wrong, and I'm the one who's right.

SPEAKER_00

But but I'm I'm happy as long as I'm right. But man, uh back to Albert's. I think this is this is the biggest story. Yeah. Um for us that online retail has has more relevance than ever. And at the same time, it gets tough of online retailers due to the Chinese players entering on the European e-commerce stage and so forth. We talked about that. But yeah, and good for them that they sold it.

OpenAI's Bullish Projection: $100 Billion in Ad Revenue by 2030.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, for sure. And I I just I just think we're at this crossroads of like, you know, the way I view the role of retailers, I think that it's kind of this it takes a village type um reality. But uh on the other hand, then we see the concentration going on with marketplaces and stuff like that. Um so we'll we'll have how this shakes out. We'll find out. Yeah. But um, let's move on to our second topic then open AI. Open AI ads, yeah. We did a couple episodes ago, we talked about this. Yes. Yeah. And um, Chris, I think you said time makes fools of us all. Um OpenAI has released some projections. Do you want to make any retractions? How do you feel?

SPEAKER_00

Uh to all my listeners. Uh, I think one week ago, Mike uh shared um a text message with me referencing to a new official OpenAI revenue projection. Because we were kind of I mean, just to give context, we were kind of critical of of the OpenAI ads business. Um the trajectory they they they shared with the market that they more or less created a 100 million ARR run rate within two months, and everyone was freaking out, and we put this into context with regards to the burn rate, and that this is a drop in the ocean. But then it seems like we were completely wrong because, ladies and gents, there is I would say a very bullish uh projection from Open AI, and this projection is that by the year of 2030, Mike, yeah, fasten your Cat business will cross 102 billion US dollars. Not 100. No, no, 102 billion, million. Not 100 million, 102 billion US dollars. 102. 102 million. Yeah, this is I don't know where the two is coming from. So they they they have to be very, very sure about that number. Yeah. Which, and by the way, this is very uh important, uh, which which is roughly 36% of their overall revenue. Yeah. So look, I mean, um, we were certainly wrong. Uh, but only in the case that this projection will come reality, it will become reality. And I highly doubt that. I highly doubt that. I doubt it, Chris. I don't think this is realistic at all. Why why that? Uh do we have benchmarks here? Sure, sure. I know you have some.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and actually, hold on, I haven't fully done my homework here because uh maybe I'll be able to add something in post to correct myself. But uh I mean to me the benchmarks here would be looking at Amazon ads. Meta or TikTok. Meta, yeah. Yes. Um and you know, I I I like Amazon and TikTok because they're they're even younger than Meta is. And uh these are some of the fastest growing ad platforms in history. Um and they they're layered upon massive assets, specifically massive user bases, and they had um very compelling value propositions from day one. Um and it the I'll I'll have to look up some specific numbers, but this is like a different order of magnitude how fast OpenAI. It will be unprecedented. Yes. Let's face it. Unprecedented. That's true.

SPEAKER_00

And I mean the the the thing which which concerns me here again, uh why they do it, why they are so certain about the 102 billion. Yeah. It has never done uh has never been done before.

SPEAKER_01

And yeah. This reminds me, Chris, this is like the inverse. You know, when you buy something and you buy it for like 99 bucks instead of a hundred, they they they put like 102 instead of a hundred. So like just just I think it's some little psychological thing for their slide deck. It's certainly bigger than 99 billion.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, if they put 99 billion, people would say not even 100 billion. Nah, I think I think it's again, I think it's it's unrealistic. Yeah. And um talking about how realistic this is, I think there's and and of course, time will tell. And uh we we we stated that we want OpenI to succeed because I think it's good for for for the end consumers using these platforms because more competition means mostly more more progress. Um but share some light, shed some light, uh Mike, on how their their ads environment looks right now. Um because this might be telling where they are compared to Meta, TikTok, Google. Yeah. Um and I I found it super interesting when we did some prep for the podcast. Maybe you just start right away.

Inside OpenAI's Current Ad Interface: A Look at the Primitive "Flight-Based" Architecture.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, sure. I mean, um the thing is that until recently, um, and every will everyone starts somewhere. So again, this isn't this is a moving target and this could age badly to a certain extent. But they were using Microsoft Excel um templates as their user interface. Um but you know there are publicly traded platforms like AppLevin that I don't know that was self-served for the longest time and might still be. I'm not even sure. Um excuse me, it was not self-served, it was fully fully managed, I should rather say. Um but they do have a UI out now, and it's you know, it's very simplistic. Um and I think though, uh a user interface anyway is it doesn't matter if it's an ugly UI, if it works, or what's in there. Um it doesn't have to doesn't have to be, but what's in there is still quite primitive. We're talking about basically, in many ways, a Google Ads equivalent of 10 years ago. 10 years ago, yes. Um and that again, that doesn't mean that they can't succeed because for a long time, Amazon ads, um, you know, that's also that's a keyword-based search platform, or at least parts of it. And a lot of that looked like Google ads from five years prior and stuff like that. And it still managed to be a very successful and growing platform. Um so this does not say that they cannot succeed, but it shows you how far they have to come. Um because like let's just talk about a few of the core components here. Um, you basically have campaigns and you have a start date, an end date, and a budget. So very important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's basically a flight-based approach. That would be a flight, yeah. So because I mean it's it's not an always-on Google Ads campaign where you're more or less demand-led and uh capturing demand on a constant basis. You have to think in flights as of now. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

The Cost of Entry: OpenAI's Fixed $60 CPM.

SPEAKER_01

And it's flight-based. I think this is um okay for the state that they're in right now, because right now the only uh goal that you can really optimize on is CPM. They actually operate with fixed CPMs for the moment. Um so at what at what I I know what it is, but uh it's it's a high one, right? Yeah, it's sixty bucks per uh per thousand impressions, which is uh by the way, also what Netflix started. And yes. There could be a strategy there to put this high price anchor or something like that, make it feel premium. But that's like what Super Bowl.

SPEAKER_00

Um that's like Super Bowl level. It's very expensive. And I can remember the first talks we had with Netflix, what was it, two years ago? Because we were uh we're a big Microsoft partner and they had the compar cooperation basically with the Microsoft um uh ad tech environment, uh tech stack. The CPM they came up with, it was around 50, 60, mm, might even have been higher than the 60. No, literally no client of ours. And I think it was not not not tied to our lack of uh selling approach. They just said, no way, this can't work. Yeah. So yeah. Crazy, crazy, crazy basic uh starting CPM.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I I mean I think, you know, if if that's what if you view it as a brand activity for right now, and there's a you know, the right now the initial spend commits are very high as well. And so this does appeal to a certain type of advertiser, these very large uh businesses. Brands f for sure. Yeah, who might who might be able and willing to check this out. But yes when we talk about scaling it to 100 billion, everything needs to change, basically. Yes. Um the big brands won't make it for Open BI. No, no. They're gonna need they need everyone to advertise there. Really, everyone. And um this gets on to like getting into our capabilities a bit further. So let's dig into that architecture. There's your campaign, it's your core entity. Then you've got um ad groups and ads. Very familiar from other ad platforms. This is where it's really interesting because um there's we, you know, if we talk about the ads, these are they have basically one ad type right now. There's um the components to it are a title, an ad copy, a link where you want to send the traffic, and then you can optionally add one square image. Um and even if you look at this is like getting a little nitty-gritty here, but the title lengths and the description lengths, these are like Google ads from 10 years ago. 10 years ago. Yeah, before expanded text ads and RSAs and all this stuff. It really it's like looking in a little time machine to what a Google, a very primitive Google ad looked like 10 years ago. But of course, Google Ads was a big business 10 years ago. Yes. It doesn't mean that this format can't work, but just as a they get into this comparability question. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

And that's that's a big deal. Look, I mean we because I mean I I don't know, like again, I I I don't want to be too harsh on them. They they will do their thing anyway, and I hope they succeed. But uh to this this would be very much sugar coding for them to say, yeah, Google started at at a certain level as well. Guess what? When they started, the market was a different one.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, the expectations of different things.

SPEAKER_00

Of course, and I wouldn't call it a blue ocean for Google 10 years ago, but it was a different market. It was way more upside for them. They are they will be compared to the maters, TikToks, and Googles of the world. And if you are providing that level for too long and on top the performance metrics are not not adding up, yeah, you will have an issue to to to to get to gain market share.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um I would really be very, very con it would be very, very concerning.

Why OpenAI is Still Relying on Keywords (While Google Moves Away from Them).

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. And uh but and on this note of comparability, I one thing that they have in here, which I think is I don't know if you're I know what's coming, Mike. Yeah, I know you. Spit it up. Keywords. Keywords. Keywords. Yes. Yeah. And I guess the reason that blows my mind a little bit is because this is supposed to be the replacement of keyword advertising. This is supposed to be the replacement of Google ads, the next generation. I think the way that they frame these keywords is that it's like a hint for that for their targeting. Like the themes in in in PMAX, right? Yeah, like search themes in PMEX. Search themes, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Google is actually at the point where they're they've they're starting to leave keywords fully behind. They've they they have you can still do keyword advertising in Google, but they also have fully keywordless advertising at this point as well. End-to-end. Yes. And and if you add search themes in PMAX, by the way, because Google reads your landing pages and they understand and they can do everything that they need from there. If they you can debate about how well they do it, but they can do everything they need from there. Um and and we even talked that in the future they might also build the landing page for you. But but um a few episodes back. But um you know, I just feel like it creates this unflattering comparison.

SPEAKER_00

Because the themes are it seems like that that the keywords we're talking about now with regards to OpenAI are the backbone of mapping search query or like the client with with with ad. With Google, we're talking about additional information. Yeah, right? Yeah you you can add certain things Google can't scrape from your website. Exactly. It's a different and way more sophisticated game.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, exactly. And and I I also feel like they're a little stuck in the middle here between is this a kind of like a more like a push targeting-based campaign like you'd have on paid social, or is it more of a pull intent matching campaign like you'd have on Google Ads? Because, you know, like this this uh this CP CPM type element and and these C this feels like what do you expect from a social ad. And there is a potential for them to just or I don't know, it it's just it's muddy right now.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, it doesn't add up. Yeah. And why why emotional is the wrong word. What why why why it just triggers me a bit is 102 billion by 2030. I mean, and let's face it, 2000 2030 is around the corner. And uh man, you you you shared a lot of the wisdom with with the world already with regards to to e-commerce and beyond. But I I really have your quote in mind that it's just not that easy to build an ad environment, yeah, tech stack, which really is able to scale. And that's what Google has done better than any anyone else. And it seems like that. I mean, it's beyond me. If you had if you had asked me the question, uh who has rather still keywords in their ad environment, OpenAI or Google? I mean, yeah what would be the answer, right? Of course. Google was built on the keywords.

SPEAKER_01

If Google would build Google ads today, they wouldn't they would build it keywordless. Absolutely. They wouldn't have keywords.

SPEAKER_00

And OpenAI as this LLM, as this this the next generation the next gen search platform.

SPEAKER_01

I mean it's there, you know, let's let's take let's view it from a let's let's view it from a different angle as well. Like there could be some benefits here because Google, excuse me, Microsoft, for example, they purposely clone Google as exactly as they can. Because I love that strategy. Yeah, people know Google, they're comfortable with it. So they want to increase the comparability. They want to make it like it's basically just an extension of what you are doing, zero friction. Come on, advertise over here too. We have some people you don't reach. Um, but that is not the ambition level that OpenAI is talking about. And that's not the value proposition that they need. And I don't think that would satisfy their investors to say we're gonna clone Google ads. Yes. Um, but you know, they they have these ex-Meta engineers and ex-Google engineers and PMs and stuff helping them build the app product. So this is something good for them. They've got people who've done it before. And I'm not saying that they can't succeed here, but uh I mean, you know, they have a viral consumer product. This to me, this is most comparable to like TikTok, a viral consumer product. Um I would debate, I actually think that TikTok is way stickier and way more addictive for for a mass market. Um, but that is the asset, is that audience. And um, you know, this is this tech needs to improve a lot. So I mean, one last thing I'll mention is that they do have an open AI pixel that's gonna be available. So conversion tracking will be coming soon. And that's that is the absolute must-have, of course.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Look, um we'll we'll find out. It and and by the way, it it's it's uh I hope it doesn't come across the wrong way. It um we we're we're not happy about this. It just it seems like a rocky start. Yeah. But for me, it it it maybe it even tells it says more about how how how how how great of a job Google has been doing over the years than it says about open AI. Because they will work the asses off. They have smart people. They hired all the the the the smart advertising people, right? Especially from Meta, Meta. I I think it's just not that easy to to quote you again. And it will take time. And two thousand two thousand thirty is around the corner.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I think the ads business ads business of Microsoft overall is crossing at around, what is it, fifty to sixty billion? Maybe we uh get fact checked here. So what because you were again, it's not about being comparable to Google. You have to be disruptive in order to crack this 100 billion within the next three years. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01

Um and that's where it doesn't add up. They they need to have an amazing product. Like I think they have a great audience asset, but they're gonna need to have an amazing product and an amazing value proposition as well. And by the way, to hit those numbers, um, it's not about you know just bringing in the advertisers and stuff like the their CPMs are gonna have to come down or their CPCs, whatever, they'll have to be somehow competitive. Um, so things have to come down to market standards, and they'll need to show a whole lot more ads to a lot more people. And the question is like, will users accept that that experience? Um Sam Altman himself is skeptical of that user experience. Um and you know, then you go over to Gemini and there's for the time being no ads and there's no plan for ads. Um it's it's a complex situation.

SPEAKER_00

And at the end of the day, and for for all the right reasons, on online retailers or retailers in general and doing e-commerce, they will be very, very much much focused on the incrementality of the return on ad spend. Yes. And so this this is maybe the last last piece of the puzzle, but maybe the most important one. Yes, they have to solve the environment in general, it has to be more functional, the the usability has to completely change. But at the end, it has to work in terms of cold, hard KPIs. Yeah. Um, so yeah, they have a long way to go. And that's why I think the one or two billion maybe it will be 99 billion. No, I think it's it's way too bullish. Yes. Because it's it's it's a red ocean. I mean, let's face it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I I just I just wonder how honest they're being with themselves. Do they do they believe this? Are they is it who is the is this for investors? Who needs to hear that 102 billion?

SPEAKER_00

The white vice president of sales is probably pitching this to Sam and I I believe that. Let's go. No, it's it's it's it's too bullish for sure.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. And you know, they're not publicly traded right now, so they but this by the way, this will change everything.

SPEAKER_00

Once they're publicly traded, yeah. And you have this beautiful quarterly earnings calls where there are you know streets estimates and you you miss them badly. Yeah. So it it's it's not a not a not a great place to be in. And by the way, mostly rooted into this this these very, very unrealistic and sometimes cocky statements from from a couple of persons from this company. Because the product is still great. Yeah. I love open I love ChatGPD.

SPEAKER_01

Well, you you know, there's a very damning profile written about Sam recently. Yeah, we we talked about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But anyway, I hope they succeed. But great insights, man. Yeah. Anything else from uh from from from the from the information we got how how the the echo system ads ecosystem uh is looking like. So there's keywords, any anything?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean there well, uh yeah, quick quick footnote there. There's also negative keywords. Negative keywords. Yes. Um limited, right? Yeah, these are I think there's like 25 is the limit, and I believe that's in per campaign or campaign. You know, they even say um that this is intended for brand safety purposes, uh stuff like that. But 25 is that number is gonna go up. I'll tell you right now. Yeah. Um that number's gonna go up because advertisers we've we've been through all this before. Yes. Um and but you know, I don't know what kind of reporting there will be. Is there gonna be an equivalent of search term reporting or stuff like that? It's all very uncertain right now. Um but I don't I do not believe, you know, if this thing is some kind of overall some kind of let's say broad match equivalent or keywordless equivalent, and these keywords you're adding in for some kind of hint to to the model um or to how to how it matches. Um I just advertisers they want to know their placements. We've been through this with Google. And already right there, if it's a black box, that's gonna hurt.

SPEAKER_00

My final statement of today is you know who the big winner here is, right? Google. It's Google. Yeah. No, I'm not kidding. Because the more people adopt this environment they have to operate in. I'm talking about OpenAI, they will be like, holy shit, why have why I've been so harsh on Google? Yes. They actually did a fantastic job.

SPEAKER_01

People say P Max is a halfbaked product. Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, this is what halfbake looks like. This wasn't even in the same room as you. No, no. No, but it is what it is. We we keep it posted. It's super interesting. How does it work? Seriously, I I promise you those those This will look different. Yeah, those are those meta engineers, they're like taking their Zen pouches, they're you know, everything they're working around the clock, they're using their Zempic and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00

They will be all over it. Yes. But again, we are at mid-2026. 2030 is approaching fast. Yes. And 100 billion is a hell of a revenue number. Yeah.

A Quick Note on Reddit's New PMax Equivalent.

SPEAKER_01

Hey, oh, by the way, uh hold on. Last note. We should wrap this up, but things just keep popping my mind in my mind. Um Reddit launched a PMAX equivalent, by the way. It launched in January. And that was announced in uh that was announced about 18 months prior. So took took Reddit 18 months to build a PMAX equivalent. And Reddit's environment is not as complicated as good.

SPEAKER_00

So by the way, and Reddit is is working quite quite quite well for a lot of cons. Yeah. Reddit, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's a I think Reddit is as interesting or more. You know, but that's the state. Let's just we should cut this up. I really don't want to, I really don't want to be so down on them. I just I just am. But and this will change and uh yeah, we'll we'll keep you posted. It's certainly super interesting. I I can't wait to eat my own words.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, let's let's wait. Time will make fool.

SPEAKER_01

Then let's wrap it. Thanks. All the best, Martin. And then thanks everyone for joining us. This has been another episode of Growing ECommerce brought to you as always by SmarterECommerce. You can learn more by visiting smarter ecommerce.com. Um, as always, give us a shout out on LinkedIn or YouTube comment, anywhere where you think um your podcast platform preference. We really appreciate it. It all helps. Thank you.