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AI Max vs DSA, PMax vs Shopping, tROAS vs Max Conv. Value | Google Ads World Cup

• Smarter Ecommerce • Season 4 • Episode 45

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We turned Google Ads into a World Cup bracket. Three head-to-head rounds, two hosts, no referee — just the campaign types and bid strategies advertisers argue about most.

In this episode of Growing Ecommerce, Mike Ryan and Chris go feature vs. feature:

🥊 Round 1: AI Max for Search vs. Dynamic Search Ads — is DSA's sunset delay (now pushed to early 2027) proof it still has a job to do, or is final URL expansion the reason AI Max wins the AI-search era?

🥊 Round 2: Performance Max vs. Standard Shopping — Standard Shopping is getting text customization, new AI-native ad formats, and its own DSA-style final URL expansion. Does that close the gap with PMax, or does PMax's built-in dynamic remarketing still make it the better fit for top sellers?

🥊 Round 3: Target ROAS vs. Maximize Conversion Value — is "maximize conversion value" just Google asking to be trusted with your budget, or is a demand-led bid strategy the more productive way to think about ROAS once you zoom out past the daily noise?

No hedging, no both-sides-it — Mike and Chris each pick a side and defend it.

About Smarter Ecommerce (smec):

Smarter Ecommerce (smec) empowers e-commerce brands with AI-driven PPC automation that optimizes for profit and business outcomes while maintaining strategic control.

The platform activates first-party data - profit margins, customer lifetime value, and key business metrics - to automate campaign optimization toward goals like profitability and efficient growth, while detailed campaign insights provide full transparency and enable PPC teams to focus on strategic oversight rather than manual execution.

As a Google Premier Partner and three-time Microsoft Retail Partner of the Year, smec manages over €500 million in ad spend and drives €5B+ in annual e-commerce revenue for 350+ global retail clients including THG, Snipes, REWE, and Intersport.

Make sure to follow smec - Smarter Ecommerce for more performance marketing insights:

smec - Smarter Ecommerce: https://www.smarter-ecommerce.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/company/smarter-ecommerce-gmbh
Newsletter: https://smarter-ecommerce.com/en/newsletter/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/smarterecommerce/



Intro — the Google Ads World Cup bracket begins

SPEAKER_02

Welcome to another episode of Growing E-Commerce. As always, I'm one of your hosts, Mike Ryan. And with me, Chris. Thanks for having me, thanks for being here, Chris. We've got a good one. In the spirit of the World Cup, we're making it competitive. Yes. So we are doing kind of a feature bracket showdown in Google Ads. So we're going to talk about AI Max for search versus dynamic search ads. Of course, DSA is going away, but we'll talk about target ROAS versus max conversion value. And of course, we'll talk about shopping versus P Max.

SPEAKER_00

Of course. And it's basically an elimination game, right? The the best the better campaign advances.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, because then are we going to end up doing all the way through like we could think about that.

SPEAKER_00

For for today, we just do this one round. Exactly. We'll do one round. And then let's see where we end up.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

I don't know if it's a if it's a good sign that I'm I'm rocking the Austrian jersey.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I want to say how should I win this today?

SPEAKER_00

Austrians already been eliminated, sadly. But we were we fought our butts off and we won against the superior team. Yes, you guys. Which was Spain.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You guys did great. It was a really good show. We did all right. I hope that when this thing is aired, that the US boys are still in the race. I hope so. We'll find out. We'll find out for sure. But I'm positive about them.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I'm also positive about my chances today.

SPEAKER_02

Really? Okay.

SPEAKER_00

That's fun.

SPEAKER_02

That's that's crazy to hear, right? Because I feel pretty fucking positive about my chances,

Round 1: AI Max for Search vs. Dynamic Search Ads

SPEAKER_02

Chris.

SPEAKER_00

Let's see. Look, you're Spain, I'm Austria. Let's see how this ends up. All right. So, Mike, uh with with which do you want to start? And by the way, we have to um of course be be clear who on on which side we are, right? Yeah, exactly. Let's start with AIMAX uh for search versus TSA.

SPEAKER_02

Let's go for it.

SPEAKER_00

All right. I'm AIMAX for search, ladies and gents.

SPEAKER_02

I'm on team DSA, even though this is a it's a moot point, there's a technical disqualification here because it's being migrated, but all right.

SPEAKER_00

It's yeah, let's face it. Uh but uh Mike, I mean, how how in the world can you support a dying technology?

SPEAKER_02

Well, again, it's a moot point, but on the pure technological premise, um, I think that DSA is tried and true. It's been working for years. It's more strictly bounded than AI Max for search because it's it's not gonna um look at your assets and stuff like this. It's really focused on your landing pages. Um, it doesn't have this final URL expansion component, and it's been reliably generating new keywords for a whole generation of search marketers. It's a workhorse.

SPEAKER_00

It's a workhorse. I I cos on that. For me, it's kind of this old reliable Audi A3, but it's certainly not my self-driving Tesla I'm rooting for now. I think AI Maxo Search is A, basically incorporating all the positives of CSA, but has this extra layer of um AI magic, which I think is getting better and better. And what I'm what I'm referring to here, and I want to be I want to be fair here, AI Maxearch, we have been talking about it. The claims Google made uh were not what were not completely true, which was basically that you get massive incremental revenue at the at the at the rural levels you face right now. But what I see across the board now that this technology gets better, and it really helps you as an online retailer to get into this incremental revenue everyone is looking for. And that's clearly, clearly um an advantage AIM ExoSearch has over DSA. That's what what my claim is. It's the the more up-to-date technology, and especially when it comes down to this incrementality. I think AIMXO search is the better campaign. If set up the right way, this is the disclaimer I want to make.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

What is your take on that? I mean, do you prefer the old A3 versus the the self-driving Tesla? Can't be serious about it.

SPEAKER_02

Uh you know, I'm not as familiar with your European automakers.

SPEAKER_00

Or is it let's rub it in, man. Let's rub it in. Let's let's see how how long they will exist. But you know what? Take a Ford F-150.

SPEAKER_02

I was gonna say, I was gonna say the Ford F-150. If you feel more comfortable. Yeah, DSA is a Ford F-150. No, so DSA, I hear you. I agree that um in terms of doing new stuff and finding incremental opportunity, um that definitely AI Max is stronger there. DSA was also doing that work. It was also an expansionary layer, but I would say it was kind of tethered or on a leash. It was just more kind of you were a bit more in the steering wheel, stuff like that. Um, so that's that would be a a case.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. What what what about, and I I know this, this, this, this comparison is is to a certain degree unfair. What what I also think um what I love about the IMAX for search is that it's it's and maybe it's not there yet, but we know for sure that this Chen Ya surfaces are the new game Google sees the future of search. And look, I mean, I I I I want to join this party. And the IMAX for search is is the is the one big ticket to enter the chocolate fabric. Let's face it. Yes. You as a DSA uh fan, you you're not allowed to join, man. You you have to party in your in your old station where you can. And I'm I'm driving driving on the red carpet with my Tesla, and I can join this Chen AI surface, which I think um will become more important. We talked maybe also about today how this the search behavior will change. And I think AI Max of Search is absolutely the core piece next to PMEX, how to surf these new Chen AI surfaces. So I think it's a must for every retailer. It's a great technology, and Google will put a lot of energy and resource in it, resourcing it to make it even better.

SPEAKER_02

All right. So I I agree it's better suited for the AI era. And uh it's because of what we're talking about that it's a bit more expansionary or untethered than DSA. The final URL expansion is the one that's hard for me to argue against, although it's a controversial feature. But we've talked in the past about this new relevance model where there needs to be this tight alignment between your like the query, which as you said are becoming very complicated, the AI content now, the ad and the landing page. Now, DSA and AI Max Research, they're both very much focused on the ad and the landing page. Um, but with final URL expansion, I have to give some points to AI Max Research because it gives it gives even more flexibility to make sure that the best landing page for that AI content and that very complicated query that really the best landing page is selected. So you got me there.

SPEAKER_00

Uh where you got me, actually. We haven't even talked about that. Um, this this reliable work horse, DSA, has always been, and and let's face it, still is. Um the fact, the fact that I think, right? They they they they moved the sunset of DSA's. I was just about to bring this up. This is your strong argument. I want to bring it up right now. It shows that this Ford F 50 is still a good car. Yeah. Um, and I think this is a point. Sorry, just spell that out. What because uh sorry, yeah, the the sunset of DSA is moved now to early 27. Yeah, it was moved from September 2016 to I believe March, February, March of uh 27. Which is a testament to this campaign type. Um however, the campaign type by design is is has no existence to to live forever because this this access to this Chen Y surface is just prevented. I don't know if there's a specific reason for it. Um because again, the technology is working, don't get me wrong. But that fact alone.

SPEAKER_02

I I'm gonna keep mixing our metaphors here, all right? Let's go. Because and and you're a Boeing guy, so you'll be on the Yes, I'm a Boeing guy. Because in that case, DSA is kind of like what the Boeing 767 or something. And IMAX is like what the the uh the Dreamliner, what was it called?

SPEAKER_00

The Dreamliner, yes. By the way, I'm a 747 guy, man. This is unfair. You you have you have me right now. Yeah, you have me right now. What can we agree on, man? I I think IMAX or search, there it's it's there's still a long way to go for this campaign type. Yeah, I think the claims of Google, which are 40% more revenue at at constant ROAS levels, I think it's it's not appropriate, it's not meeting it. You have to be very careful with your setup, brand exclusions, and so forth. But I would make the case this is certainly one of one of the campaign types of the futures, of the future, which Google will be doubling on, and it's getting significantly better.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean I guess we I mean, anyway, by but for technical reasons, AI Max Search is gonna have to win this round. But the other thing that I would say is that um it's a bit uncertain to me uh always how some of these campaign types play together. But AI Max for search and PMAX, although they do some similar activity, I increasingly come to feel that they're complementary. Um whereas I don't feel that way. We'll talk about shopping later, but I don't feel that way with shopping and PMAX. Um and it's because this gives you a chance to still start with keywords. We know that AI Max, if you go all in on it, it's broad and it does this DSA and final URL stuff. Um, but I still think that the keywords, even if they only then act functionally as a signal, that is your chance because um, you know, PMAX by itself, yeah, we're mixing our campaign types now, but it it won't have that knowledge. It's gonna be sort of agnostic or very open-minded. It's gonna look out there, see what search volume there is, and do its own thing with no keywords. But that that AI Max for search campaign remains relevant because that's your chance to put your experience and knowledge and the things you want to target in there. So I think in that sense, the you know, the the search part inside of PMAX won't be that relevant if you've got a good AI Max for search campaign.

SPEAKER_00

Which is the superior approach to having your search set up within PMAX. Yes. Look, I mean, it might be a bit weak, but maybe we can agree on a draw. It's hard for me, man, because I I like DSA. There's no no, I'm not calling a draw. No, I yeah. So who advances? AMX. AMX research. Thank you very much, sir. Yes. Thank you very much. But it was an unfair game, to be honest, right? I started with 11 players and you're actually with five. Exactly. But I made

Round 2: Performance Max vs. Standard Shopping

SPEAKER_00

it, man.

SPEAKER_02

Or it's uh is it it's like the it's like the it's uh the referee already decided before it was a scripted WWE match. Exactly. Yes, the best time.

SPEAKER_00

All right, all right. Uh next one, uh, which is I think a way more interesting one. Uh performance max versus standard shopping. Yeah. I'm camp performance max.

SPEAKER_02

I'm camp, I you know I'm a AI Max for shopping fangirl. So I'm I'm camp standard shopping because how could you not be now? How could you not be?

SPEAKER_00

And this is a tough one, man. Yes. Um I'll let you dig your I'll let you dig your own hole first. Yes, I exactly. I don't want to I don't want to dig my hole right away. So I think um I would like you to start with uh with the serving game and then try to return as as as well as I can. You you effing cowards. Let's be smart here. Why is standard shopping the better campaign time?

SPEAKER_02

Standard shopping now will have an extremely high amount of feature parity, in other words, equivalent features with PMAX. And do you really want me to start, Chris?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, listen. Look, I if if if if it feels like 5-0 for you, I I maybe I just accept it and we let standard shopping.

SPEAKER_02

If you want, because I love playing devil's advocate, so I'll jump on PMAX later. But um so that's that's the status quo. There are two huge upgrades coming to standard shopping campaigns. It's gonna get text customization, which will allow you to have hyper-relevant titles to these increasingly long queries that we've been talking about. And it will also power new AI native ad formats. So those are very cool features right there. Additionally, this is a bit more controversial, but I actually start to think it's pretty cool. It's gonna do also dynamic search ads and final URL extensions.

SPEAKER_00

That's that's crazy.

SPEAKER_02

And this is because, again, Google needs to make sure they're covering the landing page part of the of this relevance model that we're dealing with. Um we have a slide for that. Maybe we'll put that on screen once too. But they need to make sure that the right landing pages are being advertised. Um, and it makes feed-based DSA, which is different than your landing page-based DSA. So it's not conflicting with your other activities. It's a net new activity. And this is just insane. So PMAX will also have these features. I'm not saying that these are features exclusive to shopping, but it brings it at eye level. And another thing that brings shopping increasingly at eye level, there's a new attribute in Merchant Center, which is for your video links. So you can now have video assets in your shopping campaigns, um, which is going to be really important. So I'll I have my opinions. I I'll let you talk before I talk shit about PMAX, I'll let you say something nice about it. Um try to be smart here now.

SPEAKER_00

Um my tactic. And by the way, by the way, another another point.

SPEAKER_02

What you want to bury me right away, right? Yeah, I forgot to mention that so it's not only getting upgraded like PMAX, but it still has everything people love about shopping. Yes. Food controls. Yeah, more controls, more granularity.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. So I feel like Austria now, and and you feel like Spain, and I will be smart now. Mate, could you bring up one good argument about PMAX if you had to? Yes, but I that's not my job.

SPEAKER_02

I I will, I will look.

SPEAKER_00

What I would like to make uh the case for is um I think by design, everything you said now is right. And it's it's let let's face it, it's a substantial upgrade of of a campaign type. Probably one and a half years ago, a lot of people were maybe even I don't know, seeing to be they they predicted it going, it's going to be sunset.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Right. We had conversations about it. Yeah, yeah. What we saw then in our MCC, uh, hold on. It's it's not going anywhere. We you have this cost share of 15-20 percent. And uh, I think this for whatever reason forced Google to to look at this campaign tab again and make it significantly more powerful. Yes. Are you trying to score goals on your subject? On my own. Where are you going? I want to lure you in, man. All right, I will strike back. All right, I'm on board. Yeah, you're like, I feel like, right? We're not friends now. We're not friends now. No, but look, uh, so everything you said is is is is true. What I still believe is that and this is the case I want to make. I think by default, I I I can't argue anything against you, because uh by default, standard shopping has has a right to exist now, on on eye level with PMAX. But I think there's still, and I would even call it maybe 60 to 70 percent of the regular online player for which PMAX is the significantly better fit. Why? Because is it is this one-stop shop campaign type still. Standard shopping will never ever be. If I'm an on an online shop, um responsible, paid off, paid ahead of paid media, and I I want to get the most out of it, I want to understand my funnel, not even in detail. I just want to make sure that I play the full funnel to what I want to achieve with the least amount of efforts. For that use case, which is a quite dominant one, let's face it, PMAC smoke standard shopping, because it's the one-stop shop campaign type I can rely on. I think there are use cases for which standard shopping is the superior campaign type. For the ones who are advanced, who want to be in control, fair fair point. But I think the the way more regular use case, and this is why Google will doubling will be doubling down on PMAX for the foreseeable future is this online player who just wants to play the full funnel to the best of their capabilities, and PMAX is the way better campaign type for that use case. All right, that's what you and I'm Austria. I uh look, give give me something. I I don't know if I scored, but give me something that there are use cases where PMAX has the right to exist. Listen, I'll tell you my PMAX pitch, okay? Okay, so use core uh on goal now.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. Okay, thanks for that. Listen, we're it's a conversation, all right. So I hear what you're saying about the one-stop shop, but in my opinion, that value proposition would be most useful to the whole SMB sector who don't want to manage 10 different kinds of communities. I was referring to that. Yeah, but my problem, this is always this is the paradox, is that they don't have the assets needed by and large to make P Max really fulfill that. To really fulfill that. And I also I wouldn't use it. Not yet. With AI and stuff like that. This could, you know, Google is has been, you know, people have hated the auto-generated assets from Google for the most part, but as the tech gets better, this could this could become a reality. But I I have always found that the people that who would benefit most from PMAX are least able to benefit from it. And the larger, yeah, that that's that's that uh from my standpoint. But what I think is PMAX's secret, if you can call it that, it will always or often outperform shopping because it has dynamic remarketing in it. Yes. And this at this point, I see the main differentiator for PMAX is the dynamic remarketing. Yes. And some people don't like that. But there have been complaints that PMAX has dynamic remarketing baked in. But I look at how cutthroat competition is, and I look at everyone having the same technological advantages with smart bidding, where if you're not getting in front of your customer, Google knows that this user has high propensity to buy, high AOV, whatever kind of demographic success. I've been looking at your product before. Et cetera, yeah. And some other competitor is going to be there. Yes. And so I think that dynamic remarketing has real value.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. And it's the main thing you can say about PMAX. Yes, fair enough. And thanks for that. I don't know, it it maybe it's an assist, but uh you you assisted me earlier with AI thanks, thanks a lot, mate. But because and I look, I mean, uh with DSA's, we we know they are sunset, but I think PMAX versus standard shopping are true. And again, I don't want to come across weak now, but I I really think it's not a versus. I think this is rather rather complementary if you if you set it up the right way. And hear me out, mate. Uh what you said is absolutely true. Remarketing is is is this one big differentiator because it's it's coming out of the box and it's working. I think PMEX is clearly the superior campaign type uh versus uh always standard shopping when it comes down to making sure that my high volume products, my top sellers are maxed out. Yes. Um, and especially with your top sellers, you shouldn't think for one second just because of the fact that someone bought before that very product, and this person might even want to buy it again. That this is your client. It's not. Guess what? No, it's not, it has never been. That's right. So that's where P Max is superior to standard shopping, to make sure that your top sellers are really maxing out the market you might have.

SPEAKER_02

All right, so Let's there is the whole hybrid topic, which maybe we we could call it a draw in that sense, but there's the hybrid topic. Yes. It's more important than ever if you want to run these things next to each other because they're going to be doing even more activity, the same activity as each other.

SPEAKER_00

More overlap than ever. Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Uh that you you really I would say before I would have probably said should not, but I really think cannot advertise the same product in both of these campaign types. Um I think there's probably nothing you can do to make that system safe enough, in my opinion. May I don't know, I have to think about it, but uh but you can just decide, hey, these are my products where that I want remarketing on. PMAX is great for that. These are ones I don't.

SPEAKER_00

Um especially for strategically important products, um whether it's whether high volume products or maybe even you know the whole long tail thing. I think standard shopping has a true case here. I mean, look, me, I give you that. No, no doubt about that.

SPEAKER_02

Our biggest failure right now, Chris, is we don't have a referee, so we have to decide. But I I decide now.

SPEAKER_00

And it it I decide now, even it's in your favor. Okay. I would I would give standard shopping the best. I thought you were just gonna pull rank on. No, no, no. I give I would I would give standard shopping the pass here because look, I mean, they the the upgrades are substantial. Well, the the comeback, it's an it's such an exciting comeback story, you know? Everyone loves that. Yeah, so yeah. I would I would I would I would give standard shopping the nod here. However, I think it's it's rather a complimentary thing if you do it correctly.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And man, I said it, I don't want to come across cocky, but we were right again. That's why we our our our shopping platform is capable to do B Max and shopping at the same time because we said shopping is not going anywhere. Yes. It's it's a comeback for the ages, and I I actually like it. Me too. For me, standard shopping, by the way, is the most successful campaign in the history of Google. I well, keyword search.

SPEAKER_02

I don't know. I don't know, man. But it it yeah, probably discussion for you have to remember the keyword search covers more than just you're right. So it's very big. Yeah, right. So yeah. But recently from an e-commerce perspective, yeah. Yes, that's true.

SPEAKER_00

So one one. Now

Round 3: Target ROAS vs. Maximize Conversion Value

SPEAKER_00

let's go on to yeah, now now it's on, mate. Now it's crunch one. You only gave that one to me, so it's stay interesting. Now it's crunched one. All right. Target ROS versus maximize conversion value. Yeah. You're in camp? I think I'm maximizing conversion value, right?

SPEAKER_02

Good.

SPEAKER_00

Because my power I know you're a target ROARS fan. I'm I'm a ROAS fan. We had this discussion in the in the by the way in the episode before. Look, uh maximizing conversion value is literally means I maximize my conversion value without any ROAS targets behind it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Have you ever gone to a bar, Mike, and just told the barkeeper, you know what? Make it the best night in my life. Go for it. Yes. Okay, yes. Really? You did it? I I've not never done it that way.

SPEAKER_02

My credit card limit isn't that high, man.

SPEAKER_00

So uh and I I would like to start with with that that funny punchline, but it it really feels like that, at least for me. The max maximized conversion value thing sounds great on paper, but one thing is for sure, as much as um as I shared the flowers with and roses with Google the last maybe 12 months, even both of us, they did a lot of things right. I'm I'm not trusting a company which is Nasdaq listed and and aiming to max out the a bit. Um I I the ROAS is the one thing I want to control by any means. Um, and that's why, before we talk about technical details, that's why I'm a big fan of Target RAWs here. For me, it's a no-brainer. I I just don't trust Google enough to to let this thing go. Well, let's talk about that trust.

SPEAKER_02

So, by the way, this is hard for me because I actually am a huge T Rose fan. I'm playing devil's advocate here. Um, but that isn't the basis. That's not I I don't want to give you ideas for what to say next about T Rows, but that that isn't the main value of T Rows to me, because I think that if we look at max conversion value um with no ROA setting, you are never going to hit a ROAS of zero or one anyway. This is not gonna happen because this still exists within your addressable market, within the budget that you have available. These are constraints. And so basically what will happen is that you're gonna get as much revenue as you possibly can with the demand that is available. And you will reach kind of the the native or the naturally occurring ROWs. And it's not gonna be one, it's probably gonna be, I don't know, four or like we what we what and it will vary, it will vary per day. There's it's going to introduce more day-to-day volatility. I give you that in terms of your ROAS, but I think if you look on average across your month, the number's not going to be that bad or that fearful. Um, and you are going to make sure this is the demand-led philosophy. Yes. You're going to make sure at that point, the budget that you have available and the demand that exists, it's going to pace itself, and you're going to get as much of it as you possibly could. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Fair point. Fair point. I like it. Uh, because we talk and I want to pick it up right away. Uh two things actually. The volatility you were talking about. So I I'll give you there won't be a a rules of one or 0.5, whatever it is. No. The rules will adjust to the demand which is available. And Google will try to to meet that as as good as possible as well as possible. But I mean, let's face it, the volatility we're talking about, I mean, you you I think you you just want to talk very lightly about it. I think the volatility volatility is a big issue. Because the volatility within a month, I could live with it. Because if on average the rose is fine, I think it's fair. But who guarantees me that the next month will be volatile to the month before? So if I zoom out a bit, there's one month I have a rowers of four, the other month I have a rowers of five, the other month I have a row of three again, because demand varies as well. That's the one thing I would like to counter here, uh, argument here. And the second thing, Mike, is we have been talking about that for years now, that rows is the one major signal I give to Google. One of the major signals I have next to my campaign structure and my budget. Uh, because Google is a transactional LLM in some case, and I want to prompt the shit out of it because I just don't trust it by default. And if I take away one of my three major laborers I have, I'm I'm not on my watch. I'm old school here. These are my two arguments.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, you know, you know you have me here because this is the part of TROS that I actually care about, is that it is a signal to Google. It's a it's a way you can differentiate your campaigns and all kinds of stuff. Um and it it can be that without that constraint in place, wherever the demand would take you would be that's a thing, would would not would not be your your break even wouldn't be there. But um I think to your point about zooming out a bit, I I actually tend to think this is the productive way to look at ROAS if you don't have a target in place. Because if you look at the daily noise, fuck that, it's gonna be spiky. Yes. If you zoom out to the week, if you zoom out to the month, it it'll smooth. Yes. By default, you'll start to see the average. Um and then what you start to see to your point in month over month terms and so on, this is ultimately the manifestation of your seasonality. Yeah. And so or just demand fluctuations, because let's face it, yeah, demand varies, right? Exactly. So I I'm I'm not too troubled by that. Um, I think zooming out is kind of healthy in that sense, but um the signal thing, yeah. I I have to give you points that Rois is there as, although it's imperfect, as we all know, it's what we have, it's there as a safeguard or a guardrail. Yes, and as a steering mechanism. I can't really argue with that. Mate, I I want to, I want, I want to listen. I think I scored a point that you don't have to fear fair enough. I mean, and you've scored a point that it's an important lever.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. And I think the lever is more important than the fear. However, I'm biased here because I want to advance. What I want to say though is I'll learn from the best, from you. Because the target draw signal thing, right? I mean, this is this is one of the major points of views of this company, and we have developed features for that to max out this signal. How do you give the signal to Google? For that reason, Mike, I really believe that the demand-led thing is is great on paper, but as an online player, D2C, multi-brand, online short, doesn't matter. Don't give away the rules uh as a letter. Look, I mean, we we might it be a draw, but this is a weak ass move, man. We we we can't we can end up with end up with a draw.

SPEAKER_02

I gotta I gotta we can ask our producers. We could.

SPEAKER_00

What do you think us? Who won that one?

SPEAKER_02

All right. I don't know if that was picked up on the microphones, so producer Kevin says T Ross. Well, fuck. Fuck.

SPEAKER_00

I don't but you still have the US passport. Yeah, I do. I don't have this. Fourth of July was last. It was last week. I'm still, I'm still, I'm still in Fourth of July mode. No, thanks. It was uh quite quite a battle. It was you made you made your points, and you smoked me with P Max, unfortunately. I felt like this was a 2-0, three, three-sero. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But

Final scores and what's next

SPEAKER_02

um, do we have time for two, or do we save that for another episode? We had one more topic we're thinking about.

SPEAKER_00

I think we are we're quite quite quite well in into the time box. Yeah, then we'll save that for next time. Yes, yes, it was a pleasure, mate. Likewise. I I I I felt the pressure. Good game, good game.

unknown

Okay, sir.

SPEAKER_02

All right. So thanks everyone. This has been another episode of Growing E-Commerce brought to you as always by Smarter E-Commerce, also known as SMEC. You can learn more by visiting smarter-e-commerce.com. And as always, you know, especially in the comments, let us know what what uh goals did we miss or what uh points could we have scored. How do you see the shaking out? I would love to see that. Thanks, and we'll see you next time.