Ep. (55) The Knowledge of Good and Evil: The Root of All Pain

What if the exhausting question running under everything — Am I good enough? — is the very thing keeping you from freedom?

In this episode of Triggered & True, Laura Duncan and co-host Brian Freise return to an idea they first explored back in Episode 9, prompted by a listener question: the knowledge of good and evil as the ultimate root of all pain, anxiety, and depression. 

It's a conversation that weaves Laura's Christian faith through the Compassion Method — and, as always, one that offers just as much to listeners of any faith or none, because the pattern it describes is simply human.

Laura shares how her faith shaped the method — including the loneliness she carried even with a strong relationship with God, a happy marriage, and four kids, and how she discovered she was missing the tangible human love the Compassion Method helped her finally receive. 

From there she and Brian unpack the "two trees": why you can't eat from both, how living from the knowledge of good and evil traps you in a frantic, energy-draining loop of "am I good enough?" (Brian likens it to malware quietly running in the background), and how the tree of life — living from fullness, from the fruit of the Spirit — produces a genuinely good life as a byproduct rather than a performance. 

The freeing turn: when you're no longer led by good-and-evil, you're not living good to earn love or living in fear of being bad — you're simply free.

In this episode: 

🔹 Why "am I good enough?" is a frantic loop that drains you — like malware running in the background 

🔹 The knowledge of good and evil as the root of anxiety and depression (building on Episode 9) 

🔹 Laura's faith journey — and the loneliness that persisted even when everything looked right 

🔹 The "two trees": why you can't eat from both, and what it means to live from the tree of life 

🔹 Why a good life flows as a byproduct of fullness — not as a performance to earn love

📩 Get your free Weekly Dose of Compassion — two short notes in your inbox every week. One to speak over yourself. One from Laura: https://www.lauraduncan.com/pl/2148814868

🔗 Learn more:

https://triggeredandtrue.com

https://lauraduncan.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:28

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this episode of Triggered and True. Hello, Laura. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_01 0:33

I'm doing good. Yeah. It feels like we've it's been a minute since we recorded a podcast since all the holidays and everything.

SPEAKER_03 0:39

Yeah. For the for last month we were early, and for this month we're a little late on the recording.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

So sorry, guys. Yeah, at the same time. I think.

SPEAKER_03 0:50

So today's topic is uh derived from a reader question uh or a listener, excuse me, a listener. I guess people don't read the podcast, they listen to the podcast. So you can't see it. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

So a listener watch it through YouTube. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

That's right. That's right. So a listener question came in and um it got me to thinking, you know, a little bit more about a topic we had touched on many episodes ago, all the way back on episode nine. And it was around the concept of the knowledge of good and evil. And uh something you had shared with me very early in my journey of meeting with you of how the knowledge of good and evil is the ultimate source of all pain.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:35

All anxiety, all depression. It all traces it back to its ultimate roots in the knowledge of good and evil. And um, so we've also talked a lot about through these episodes that Christian faith is not a requirement in any way, shape, or form to benefit from the compassion method. So any faith, any persuasion, uh faith, no faith, whatever, you're going to this is a human experience. This is a human experience. You're you are going to um receive uh some mighty, mighty wonderful things by embarking on this compassion method process. So it's not a requirement, but undoubtedly your Christian faith, Laura, has had a profound impact on shaping the compassion method. So why don't you just share a little bit about how your faith intertwines with the foundations and the makings of the compassion method?

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Yeah. I think I'll start by you know talking about my faith, but I probably will lead into kind of how this directly connects to the knowledge of good and evil as well. You know, so my faith um was definitely and it is, you know, strong. I, you know, believe in God, I believe in Jesus, I've, you know, been a Christian um my whole entire life, raised in a Christian home, and really saw just, you know, the reality of God and saw that he was real and alive and that it was tangible. And actually, um, I saw it was tangible because that's how my mom lived her life, but I didn't actually experience the tangibility of God until I was 18 years old. When I was young, I used to go lay on my mom's side of the bed and pray and ask God to show himself to me. And um, my mom and dad were both Christians, but my mom's faith was just a lot more um expressive and dynamic. And so God seemed so real um through her. And so I'd lay on her side of the bed and I would pray and I would ask God to show himself to me. And nothing would happen, nothing would happen until I was 18. And when I turned 18, it doesn't, it doesn't mean that I still considered myself a Christian. I still went to church, I still believed, I still had faith, but I was looking for a tangible presence of God. And the compassion method is directly connected to that because when I experienced God at 18, it was tangible, it was essence, like we talk about sometimes with the compassion method. It was God was real to me, and I felt his love and I felt his connection, and I felt like he was real, just like a human. It felt so real, even though it was not tangible. And as I journeyed through life, I was able to, you know, I had a strong relationship with God, but I had these parts of myself that were still lonely. I remember being happily married, had four great kids, you know, had my faith, you know, life was good. But then I would bump up against this loneliness and I would just be like, ah, this doesn't make sense. I have all the things, both spiritually, you know, practically. I have all the things that should make me feel like I'm, you know, satisfied, fulfilled, content. And but I still had this loneliness inside of me that I didn't know what it was. It was just this dissatisfied, empty, lonely feeling. And so I was so I would struggle with it. And it would ebb and flow. Sometimes it'd be stronger, sometimes it would be less. But when I discovered the compassion method, I recognized that I was lacking the tangibility of human love in certain ways that I hadn't experienced. And even though I had everything that looked so good, and this is before my husband passed away, this is before he even was sick, I had everything that looked right, but I didn't have the tangible presence of God, of humans in the way that I really needed it to actually heal that loneliness. And so that actually intensified my faith because I was able to connect with God in some of the ways that I wasn't able to connect with Him before.

SPEAKER_03 5:36

Wow, yeah, that's good. So what about the the concept of good and evil? So, how do you relate that? How do you relate that back?

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Yes. So um, even though I was looking for that tangible love, and that's what I feel like the compassion method was able to help me connect to with humans and with God spiritually as well, um, the hindrance of my connection with God and the loneliness I had was also directly connected to my belief that when you were good, God and others loved you. And when you were bad, God and others didn't love you. And I always saw it as like um holding hands with like, you know, a human or with God holding hands, and then when you do something bad, the bond is broken. And then you have to do good. You have to, you know, you have to you have to say you're sorry, you have to do good to repair, to be reconnected again. And so it's just push, pull, push, pull, push, pull. And it was this constant thing that I experienced from a very young age that I believe led to that loneliness because it was disconnection, because it was conditional and it was contingent on my behavior, and it was contingent on if I was good, I got that love and connection and that attachment. But if I was bad, I got detachment.

SPEAKER_03 6:56

So, how does this relate back to the the biblical story of the knowledge of good and evil in the trees in the garden? Maybe just for someone that might be unfamiliar or anyone that might need to see it from maybe a little bit different perspective.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Yeah, I know I did. You know, I've read a lot of the Bible and so much more of just like reading stories and not really connecting to the reality of it, just especially because it's happened like so long ago and it's just stories. And the show said, I thought the Bible was there to teach us how to be better, to be good.

SPEAKER_03 7:27

How to be good.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

Yeah, I didn't know that the Bible sounds really like uh, but like I didn't realize that the Bible was there to bring attachment and connection to God and relationship. I thought it was to a list of things to do to get better. So when I would read about the knowledge of good and evil, I would look at it as I can't believe how bad they were. I can't believe Eve ate that fruit. I can't believe um Adam followed her. And I would shame them in my mind when I would read that story originally. And I was like, they're horrible and they ruined it for all of us. So now we have to live in the same way. They're really, really bad. So that's actually how I read that story before. But now when I read the story, so if you go back to the story, um, Adam and Eve, Adam was in the garden, God created Eve to be with Adam. This is a little bit of a side note, but to be with Adam, not to do for Adam, because God was already with Adam. He had his whole, his heart was full of love. He just didn't have another human of his kind to be able to be with him. So God creates Adam to be with him. They're in the garden. He says, Do whatever you want. You have full reign, just do not eat of the knowledge of good and evil tree. And they go, and um, Eve is tempted by um the serpent in the garden, and he says, Um, this is actually key. Sorry, kind of feel like I'm gonna talk for a minute, but it's gonna be good. Um, but this is really key. So how everyone because I was thinking how bad she was, how stupid she was, that she would believe the serpent. She would, I even thought like she had relationship with God and she did that. I can't believe her. But when you look at how he deceived her, he actually deceived her through pain. Because, you know, I don't know what the time frame was between Adam being in the garden and Eve being there, but I kind of look at it as he chose Eve because she had less relationship and connection with God because she was created second, or that's what I you know I'm thinking of. And so when he deceives her, he says three things that are very key that I think we still struggle with today. He said, God is lying to you, he isn't who you think he is, and you need to eat this fruit, you need to have the knowledge of an evil to protect yourself, and so she eats of the fruit and her eyes are open, and she feels ashamed for the first time. She believes that she is eating evil because she now has the knowledge of evil. And then Adam does it the same. They go and they hide in the bushes or hide and they cover themselves and they um are hide from God. And this is very key. God comes, I've I said this before, he could have said, Wow, you screwed up. I don't want to be any any connection to you. So I'm gonna go and I'm gonna send an angel to go and tell you to leave. But God was not afraid of their knowledge of good and evil, he wasn't afraid of their mistake, he wasn't afraid of their sin. And so he came to them and said, you know, why are you hiding? Even though he probably already knew what was happening because he's you know, he's God. But they they made excuses, they hid, they were in shape. But he was actually wanting to restore relationship because he still saw them for who they were, not for what they did. And then everyone goes, Okay, well, then they got kicked out of the garden. That's what I thought too. But he actually protected them because in the knowledge of good and evil, if they would have eaten from the tree of life, they would have been stuck permanently in the pain and chaos of the knowledge of good and evil. So he had them leave to protect them from eating of the tree of life, so they wouldn't be stuck like that for eternity. So it's actually love and protection that he sent them out. And yes, there was consequences, just like there is consequence for all of our mistakes and our sins. But the consequence that's very, very key. The consequence was for what they did, but the consequence wasn't against who they were. God still protected them and kept and took care of them all the way up to Jesus coming, all the way up to today, because he loved them and he saw them for who he was. They're his creation, his perfect creation, even though they made mistakes.

SPEAKER_03 11:37

Yeah. There's a lot of depth there. And I think what you were talking about, you know, we get taught these stories, or those that grew up in the Christian faith get taught these stories as little kids and they become almost like nursery rhymes. And you don't recognize the the depth that's there.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

So much there.

SPEAKER_03 11:56

And here, and here's what the depth is. Um, so if knowledge of good and evil is the source of all pain, that's a pretty big statement. So talk about how that is the source of the pain.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Well, if you brings it back to what if you bring it back to what I was saying in the beginning when we I was talking about my faith with God and how my faith was got with God was contingent, just like Adam and Eve's was contingent. I had to be better, to cover myself, to be good, to be loved. And that kept me from being able to fully receive the love that God had for me and also the love that other humans had for me. And so, what's the opposite of love? The opposite of love, I think, is um hell, honestly. Like I think the opposite of love is utter emptiness. I mean, think about your most desperate moment.

SPEAKER_03 12:49

Not connected.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

No life, like no water, no food, no connection, emptiness, darkness. I mean, that is just the worst possible place to be in. And that is what the knowledge of good and evil introduced us to.

SPEAKER_03 13:08

And you know, you've talked about the knowledge of good is as detrimental, as detrimental as the knowledge of evil. A lot of people maybe wouldn't connect that, but talk about how that this creates like this energy inside of us that we're constantly processing.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Yeah, I I commonly use the word frantic um with that that energy. It's a frantic energy to always be better, to be okay, to be loved, to be connected. And so when we look at it, the tree wasn't called the knowledge of evil tree, that they were good and then they ate of the evil tree, and they and then they knew evil, but they were already good. But they call the tree is called the knowledge of good and the knowledge of evil because they were neither good nor evil, they had no knowledge of good or evil. That doesn't mean that they didn't make any mistakes or anything. I mean, I don't know, it doesn't talk about that, but that doesn't mean that they didn't, it just means that they didn't have any knowledge of both evil and good. And to me, the reason why I say that good is sometimes more detrimental than evil is because when we are trying to be good, we cannot and we're trying to avoid evil. That's the frantic energy that you're talking about. That's the frantic energy. We always have to be good. And even when you're as good as you possibly can be, and you climb the ladder of good to the top, you're the best, and you're the goodest, you know, and you are just such a good, you know, Christian, good um spouse, good child, good employee, good boss, good whatever it is, and you get there, guess what happens? What must what goes up must come down, right? So eventually you're not gonna be able to maintain maintain your status. You're gonna make a mistake, something's gonna happen. You know, whether you intentionally do or you don't intentionally do, you're gonna make a mistake. So then you're gonna go back down and be connected to evil and have to climb that ladder all the way up again.

SPEAKER_03 15:09

Well, and that kind of comes back to uh an age-old philosophical question are humans really the best judges of what is good versus what is evil?

SPEAKER_02 15:19

I think that's a really good one.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

I think we all think we're really good judges of what's good. But you know, as I've gone this journey, it's really a question, you know. Obviously, there's like the big sins and like, you know, murder. I think Christian or non-Christian, we can all agree that murdering someone is not good. But there's certain things that we say are good that actually who said who said that that was good, that we live our whole lives based on that, and we judge others based on that when who said.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

There's uh there's a quote from a book, The Shack, that I think is really good. And it talks about uh, he says, uh, humans have a great capacity for calling something good or evil without truly knowing. And to make things more confusing, that which you determine to be good will change over time and circumstance.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:09

Maybe lying is bad in one circumstance, but good in another. So who judges that?

SPEAKER_00 16:15

I know.

SPEAKER_03 16:16

And then beyond that, and even worse, there are billions of you, each determining what is good and what is evil. So when you're good, so when your good and evil clash with your neighbors, fights and arguments ensue, and even wars break out.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

So I mean, I think I was even thinking, I just said that murder is obviously not good, but I was thinking, like, what about like Braveheart and the movies that where his wife is killed and he goes out and he redeems, and we're all like clapping, we're like, he's so good.

SPEAKER_03 16:45

Yes, yeah, exactly. So, and I think a lot of times, um, you know, human beings weren't designed to be the arbiters of good and evil. That wasn't supposed to do, evidently.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

So, especially through the knowledge of good and evil, if that makes sense. We're judging through the knowledge of good and evil, not through love, not through wisdom, not through understanding.

SPEAKER_03 17:12

Well, you're right, because a lot of our judgments are not coming from our true selves, they're coming from our triggered selves.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

Yep, exactly. That's majority of judgment comes, unrighteous judgment comes from our triggered selves.

SPEAKER_03 17:25

Yep. And we're making these decisions from our pain and our unmet need.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 17:31

Not from who we were created to be.

SPEAKER_02 17:33

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 17:35

Yeah. So this energy, this constantly processing, I kind of envision it kind of like a um, you know, a computer that has like um malware or something like that that's running on it, and it's like constantly sucking energy and constantly draining resources from other applications.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Gets a lot of attention.

SPEAKER_03 17:56

Yeah. And that's what's happening inside of us with this frantic energy that you're talking about, where we're constantly trying to, am I good enough? Am I enough? Am I doing enough?

SPEAKER_01 18:07

And it starts so young, you know, like talk to like a five-year-old, maybe even younger, but talk to a five-year-old. They're already working that system. Think about when someone says, What do you want to do when you grow up? It's already implying that, you know, it's all about what you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_03 18:26

And ultimately, you know, as Christians, we believe what what Jesus died to give us and what the compassion method is teaching people to embrace is the freedom to live by a different system.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Yeah. And that's what Jesus came for too, you know.

SPEAKER_03 18:41

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

So much of that lines up with him saying that's the old way of doing things, but we're still stuck in the old way of doing things.

SPEAKER_03 18:48

So you've said things before that um we can't eat from both trees. So you've made a statement before, I've heard you say that you can't we cannot eat from both trees and kind of explain what that means.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Yeah. Well, your uncle actually has a really, I don't know if he shared that with you recently, not to go off on a tangent, but um Uncle Ron, he shared a really cool thing about that same concept, but based on not being able to eat from both trees. And how if you're eating from the knowledge of good and evil, that you're going that that will be your system that you live by, because that's what you ate, that's what you ingested, that's in your system, literally, and that's what you're eating, and that's what you're digesting, and that's what you're living by. So when you think about the tree of life, the tree of life is not the knowledge of good and evil. So the tree of life is I kind of look at it if um if we think of it in a biblical context, I think of like the fruit of the spirit, you know, patience, you know, um, love, kindness. I can't remember all of them, but um, but you know, like I see it more like that. That's the tree of life. And so as we are ingesting those things and as we're connected to our true self and we're connected to who God created us to be, and also who God is, we are living in those places. You from that place, eating from the tree of life, you're going to live a quote unquote good life, but not because you're living it because of the knowledge of good and evil, you're living it as a byproduct of the tree of life.

SPEAKER_03 20:20

Yeah, you're living it as a byproduct of being filled with love. Exactly. Being filled with compassion. Yes, yeah, being filled with your needs met, and you can't give away to anybody else what you don't have living inside of you. So as a as a default, like you don't have to try to live by the spirit. You will just live by the spirit because it'll come gushing out of you.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Exactly. And I kind of look at the knowledge of an evil kind of like um a little bit like the spy where you're talking about, but like, you know, like a like a poison apple or something like that. That's like stealing from us the deficiencies. Because you can have, you know, the knowledge of good and evil presents itself as love to a certain degree. You know what I mean? Like if you do good, you're gonna be loved and people smile and people accept you, and you're like, You've also described it as a safety for us. Yes, exactly. It feels safe to have those boundaries of okay, if I do the right thing, I'm not gonna get hurt, I'm not gonna hurt others. I can feel safe in this. And so it does feel safe and it it gives us certain feelings that mimic the tree of life. That's why we want it so much because it's actually feeding us, but it's actually hurting us at the same time that it's feeding us.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

Well, and it's a bit like we're using it to try to control our external world.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

Yes, definitely. That's where all blame comes from.

SPEAKER_03 21:40

See, like what I really learned at the base of like my learning, like when I first came to you, I thought my external world was like the strongest thing in the universe. Like, yeah, external was so big and inside, and I was so little, yeah, and so much of your teaching is about teaching that no, no, no, no, your internal world is the stronger.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 22:03

And to me, the knowledge of good and evil, if I lived by that system, it was my attempt to make the external world controllable.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

If I do the right things, the external world will fall into place, and then I'll be safe. And then I'll be safe. And that's that's the thing. Like, that's just not reality. And I think that's what gets a lot of people twisted in their faith. Is they think, okay, I do these things.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 22:31

We're trying to judge good and evil and we're judging what's going on, is you know.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Well, think about that age-old question. Why do bad things happen to good people?

unknown 22:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

If I do everything right, I should always be okay. And every single person listening to this call knows that no matter how good you are, it does not control your external world. Things will happen to us. We will experience pain and we will suffer regardless of how good we are.

SPEAKER_03 23:00

Yeah. In this world, there's much tribulation to be had for all.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Yeah. And that's again coming back to what you just said, that's why our internal world being strong and full will be it, we will be able to go through anything. I think of Stephen in the Bible being stoned to death, and he was so full of love that he could forgive them, but he could also be okay and be at peace even unto death. I mean, that is an extraordinary inner world that yes, 100% came from God and his connection with God. But we know that had to be not bigger than God, but it had to be connected. You know, you can't just in your mind say, you know, think about if we were being stoned right now, and we said, in our mind, God is good and I'm okay. We're not going in the moment, we're not going to believe that unless it's actually abiding in us.

SPEAKER_03 23:48

Yeah. Yeah. And it's only going to be abiding in us to the degree that we have our pain comforted.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:57

Because if we're hurting on the inside, we'll push away the very life that God's trying to give us. Like we'll push it, we'll push it away. We'll push it right out of the way.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

And it'll be temporal, you know, or it'll be based on our external world.

SPEAKER_03 24:11

It'll be based on the system of the knowledge of good and evil. You know, it'll be based on that system.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

And that center that circles back to the knowledge, good and evil produces shame. And shame produces blame. So we stay as we are in that perpetual cycle of good and evil, we're actually in the perpetual cycle of shame and blame.

SPEAKER_03 24:32

Yeah, we're either dumping the blame on ourselves or we're blaming the world around us.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

And yeah. One very clear sign that you're stuck in knowledge of good and evil is your level of blame.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

Mm-hmm. There was uh, you know, we kind of returning to that kind of the knowledge of good and evil as a safety. There's there was something that you said that I had written in my notes. Um, you talked about how when God told you there was no good or bad, that it upset you because you had prided yourself on having no sin in your life.

unknown 25:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Yeah. I laugh now, but yes.

SPEAKER_03 25:11

That was your safety. And you kind of you you alluded to that at the beginning, how you were like you were mad at Eve. Whereas I was like, I'm just I was working that system. See, this is this is so interesting because like you were contextualizing it a different way. Me, I was like thankful that I wasn't there because I would have done the same thing and worse, or scared that I would have, you know.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

We approach it from different ways, yeah, same group, but we'd have been in different ways.

SPEAKER_03 25:38

I'd have been even more bad.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

I was so good at being good that I was like, I can't believe them. You know, we shame others based on how much we feel like we've mastered good.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

Yep. And you talked about how part of how you serve God was by getting all the points.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Yep, exactly. I felt like um like every time I was being good, I was getting these points. I was building that those up. And then it just felt like, okay, I literally said to God when you said, you know, good and bad doesn't matter. I was like, then why have I been doing everything I've been doing? Like I actually felt like so upset. I was like, I should have just gone out and done whatever and you know, just gone crazy and been bad because you know, you said good and bad doesn't even matter. It actually really upset me because I was like, then why was it I doing all this? And he's like, Yeah, why were you doing all that? Because you were you were being so good. You were being driven by that system exactly, and that false comfort of if I'm good, I'm loved and I'm okay. And no, and I promise you, judgment's connected to it. At the time, if you would have asked me, I've been like, No, it's just it's wrong. I'm not judging, it's wrong. But my heart, because I was so connected to the knowledge of good and evil, that when I could do good, I would look at other people and say, Why are they so bad?

SPEAKER_03 26:56

Exactly. You judged Eve.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Yes, I did. She'll have a conversation.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

Someday she'll have a conversation with you. Like exactly hard on me, Laura. I mean, if you would have been there, I think you'd have done the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

No, yeah, that's what we talk about self-righteousness. I laughed now because I can't even believe I thought that, but that's how I saw it.

SPEAKER_03 27:17

Well, that's where they were. And you said like it was uh it was a comfort, but it was a false comfort. And when we're when we're comforting ourselves outside of like what brings true comfort, like what we teach in the compassion method about having self-compassion, learning how to comfort the pain, but then ultimately learning how to get our needs met through the 10 gifts.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

And I wasn't getting those met, I was very empty and lonely, even though I was on top of the good mountain.

SPEAKER_03 27:47

So false comfort costs you something because what it costs you is true healing.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Yes, true healing, true love. I did not have true love because it was conditional.

SPEAKER_03 27:56

Yeah. And I maybe this never happened to you, but when I was trying to keep points, I would always feel like I didn't have enough points. And I um, you know, so it's kind of like those shame highs. I did really good today, I'm on top of the world. Or I got kind of upset with the kids today, I'm on the bottom of the world, and you know, I'm just kind of in this ever, ever ending. Um I still went through that.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

I just felt like my good points were higher than my bad points. So it's not like I never did anything wrong, yeah, but I didn't have anything that I felt like I was intentionally doing wrong. And then a lot of times the things I would do wrong, I'd be like, Well, like I didn't mean to, you know, people a lot of times say, like, I didn't mean to. I didn't, you know, I didn't try to do that. It's just what happened, or things like that. You make a lot of excuses and a lot of blame because you're trying to protect the good points.

SPEAKER_03 28:49

So we're kind of, you know, we're kind of just hitting what we talk about, like triggers and our true self, our triggered self. We're just kind of hitting it from a different angle because ultimately we're saying the same thing. So when we talk about being triggered, we're saying, hey, when you're in that triggered state, you're actually living by this other system.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:09

Okay. And God didn't design us to live by that system. The compassion method is a way to, it's kind of to me like a bridge to help us live by the system that brings life.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 29:23

The life-giving system.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 29:25

So let's talk about, you know, a little bit about how we get set free. And I think the first part is just the awareness of hey, maybe there's another way to live life than keeping points.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:39

Maybe, maybe there are, maybe there is no scoreboard, like I think. You know, I think that's the the first step to being open to like, yes, perhaps I am still living by that system.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

And that's exactly like I just said, that's exactly what God said to me. You know, that good and bad is not what it's about. And it was shit, it shook me because I was so unaware.

SPEAKER_03 30:06

So you said you said to me once, you said the system can only stop when we recognize the shame and knowledge of good and evil attached to it.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

Like that's the only way we can get it to stop. And I think so we can stop blaming and shaming ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Exactly. Yeah. And I think I kind of look at shame. I mean, shame is universal, of course, but I believe that we all have our own unique flavor of shame based on our early childhood development and how the knowledge good and evil was um, how that system was in place during our coding. I call our early childhood development our coding. And it was teaching us by that system. And we all got taught a little bit different. Even how you approached Eve eating the apple and how I approached Eve eating the apple came from both of our early childhood development um perspectives. So the awareness, like you said, number one, but then what's your flavor of shame? And your flavor of shame will always come from your pain and your lack. And so being able to recognize and what shame is, is shame says what you do is who you are. So whatever that doing means in your system, that is gonna be your shame. And for every home, there's a different emphasis. And so when you find that emphasis, you're able to recognize okay, that's my shame. That's what shame looks like for me. This is where I believe I am what I do, where others are what they do.

SPEAKER_03 31:37

You know, we've we've talked about this before, but one of the the 10 gifts from what you were describing, those kind of landing here, one of the 10 gifts that I always felt deficient in, or that I recognized as very deficient, was being enough.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:53

And so that created a very low uh sense of self-value and self-worth.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:00

Because I didn't feel like I was enough. And it probably shades how I read that story.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Yes, exactly. That you're attributing that lens.

SPEAKER_03 32:11

Of course I would have done what Eve did because I'm not enough. I can't, I couldn't be trusted. I wouldn't be enough for that moment. Yeah.

unknown 32:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:20

So that's my flavor of shame.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Yeah. And I guess I'd say, just thinking off the top of my head, I hadn't thought about this before, I would say, um I feel like my shame would to a certain degree be, um, there's probably other components to it too, but the one I'm thinking of right now, based on how I saw Eve, was not being seen. I was seen for being a good girl. My nickname was Beamer because I was happy. So seen for happy, this happy good girl that brought joy to others.

SPEAKER_03 32:46

Because if you were if you were that, then you would feel seen.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Yes, then I would feel seen, but I wasn't really being seen.

SPEAKER_03 32:53

No, you weren't really feeling seen. Yes. You just it was it was I was a band-aid.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

Yeah, exactly. Yep, it was a band-aid. And so I'm looking at it as you're loved if you do good and if you're happy and all these things, but I really wasn't mean seen. If I could have been seen in my entirety, I could have seen Eve more clearly. Which of obviously Eve is a reflection of all of us, you know, we read the story, but we are actually all Eve. 100% all Adam. You know, we're all subject to the pain of when we believe that God isn't who he said he is, and the pain of we have to protect ourselves from that.

SPEAKER_03 33:30

Yeah. And you and I have had some uh interesting talks too about um some different biblical characters, and one of them being David. And the his story is really particularly messy.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

It's it's yeah, he he definitely had something bad in his life.

SPEAKER_03 33:51

Not only is it messy, I don't know. I'd have to double check this, but I don't know that there's many biblical characters that you have more of their story written.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

That's true. That's really true. I didn't even think about that. That was definitely a lot written about a lot written, not just about facts, but more from like a personal way too. Like his personal story, his personal thoughts, the personal things he did, and the and the personal garbage crappy things he did. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 34:19

The things that it's like, okay, yeah, he did some really cool things, but I I think that if you were keeping points, the points on the bad things he did would outweigh the good things he did.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

Yes, yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 34:32

You said something to me that was really profound and it was freeing for me because I would actually read read about David and kind of freak me out a little bit. Because I'd be like, um, I'm like, even David didn't have it together. So if if if my world can only be okay by having all of my ducks in a row, and these biblical characters can't even get their ducks in a row, how am I ever gonna get my ducks in a row? See, that's how I looked at David, and it kind of freaked me out. But you gave me a different perspective. And your perspective was you said, this is your quote, you said, through David, God is breaking the knowledge of good and evil. So God, because he's clearly doing things that you would look at as being not good, right? And he said, he said he was a man after his own heart. So in in ways, God contradicted himself. He wasn't looking at David's behavior. If he was only looking at David's behavior, he wouldn't have been able to say that, but he saw past the behavior to who David was.

SPEAKER_00 35:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:37

Which he's able to do that for all of us. And I think that's so refreshing that the Bible does share all of the uck of David's life. Because God saw past that to who David was and helped call that out of him, you know, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

So that actually, when you were saying how like one of your you know, childhood um areas of shame was not feeling like you're not enough because you lack the gift of knowing that you were enough. When you think about David's life, even before he made bad decisions, remember he was chosen to go and fight Goliath when he was so small.

unknown 36:17

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

And you know, you went through all the brothers and they're like, Don't take him. He's the smallest and the least. He couldn't even wear the armor, he couldn't even do anything. Now God saw who he was separate from even if he was enough during that time, too. So not just that he was God saw his heart, he was a man after God's own heart, even in his sin, but also even in his deficiencies. God still saw him and still saw that that's who he was.

SPEAKER_03 36:42

It's cool. Yeah. Yeah. So now I can I can look at that not so much, it doesn't freak me out like it used to. It's more of a it's more of a freeing thing.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:53

You know, and um, but you know, what's also hopeful to us is that it's pure pretty obvious from the Bible too that David never learned how to live free.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:05

You know, he never did fully like it was just like a learning that he didn't have, you know, he didn't have that. And he didn't have the resources available to help teach him how to learn to live free. And you've talked about, so that's kind of how I want to land today is like, okay, we're getting this awareness, and if you've been listening to the podcast any amount of time, I mean, you're you're definitely probably well into the awareness phase, like you're aware that hey, there's might be a different way to live. I'm living by a system that's a bit faulty, and you know, but then how do I live free? And ultimately, this is a quote from you as well. You said uh to me once, when you are being and no longer being led by the knowledge of good and evil, we are truly free. Yeah. So it's about learning, it's about being versus doing versus being is not living by that that other system. So describe being. Like, what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01 38:12

So to me, being is coming back to who we are, our true self. That's what we refer to in the compassion method, but it's coming back to the original design of who we are, made in the image of God, which you've used the word before magnificent. When that's the center of my belief of who I am, everything flows from there. That's the being, that's the enjoyment, that's the peace, that's the connection with myself and God and others. Because I can just be and I don't have to do to be left.

SPEAKER_03 38:49

You know, you you say uh the compassion method teaches you how to feel your pain, how to get comfort, and how to go play. Play is the being. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

And that's before the knowledge of good and evil. That was Adam and Eve in the garden, living playing with no knowledge of good and evil. They were full and they were comforted.

SPEAKER_03 39:19

So when I think of how do I know if I'm living from that place, and a lot of it is connected to do I sense any awe? Do I sense any wonder? Because I mean, that's what a little kid has when they're playing, you know. They don't even have to have much. Yeah.

unknown 39:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

It's so simple, yeah, but so profound. Unless we become like a little child, free from the knowledge of good and evil, we can't experience the kingdom of God, which is righteousness, peace, and joy. And that is what's available to us as we come back to our original design.

SPEAKER_03 40:00

Yeah. And the exciting thing about the compassion method is it teaches you how to access what's already available.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Yeah. I love that so much.

SPEAKER_03 40:13

Yeah. And I also know that I'm on the right track when um when I have a sense of uh hope and advent, and I have that that kind of that sense of adventure.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:26

Like, you know, kind of like I'm embarking on a journey, like there's this sense of adventure, like you're excited, like you're getting ready to go on a trip to somewhere you've never been. And obviously, as you get older, and if you're viewing that trip through your pain lens, it might be freaking you out and causing anxiety. And you're like, I got planes and connections, and are they gonna get me pick up pick me up at the airport? Am I gonna make everything on time? That's that's living from that other system. But if you can go back to the child who is like, someone else already took care of all that. I don't even know what missing a connection means.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

Yeah, exactly. Oh, we gotta go play some more. It's fine.

SPEAKER_03 41:06

Just going along for a ride. So imagine having the um the brain power, you know, the the knowings of an adult, but being able to live, yeah, live from that place.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

Wonder, that belief, that faith. That's what faith is. That's why I think when they say when Jesus says you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can move mountains. He's saying you can if you have that faith that I believe is connected to being our truest self, being childlike, being restored before the knowledge of good and evil, we can believe and hope for anything because we're not restricted by that knowledge. Yeah, anything's possible.

SPEAKER_03 41:48

Absolutely, and I think the you know, this is the it sounds some of it sounds kind of you know far-fetched, especially to a brain like mine, you know, that lived in logic, you know, because it's like that logical.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

You got bills to pay, you got meetings, you got kids screaming at you, you got, you know, I don't know, employees mad, customers mad, whatever, whatever it depends on the day.

SPEAKER_03 42:17

And then there's those days when there's all of those together in one day.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 42:22

But I know that I've made progress because six years ago I would have kind of like chuckled at all that a little bit, like, yeah, wishful thinking. But now it's like, yeah, I can I'm not living uh as high a percentage of my life from that place as I'd like to, but like I can see it in a distance and like yeah, I know that destination exists.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 42:48

I know it exists, yeah. And um, and I'm gonna keep going down that path towards that destination because it's a pretty good one.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Yeah, it's reminding me of um my one of my daughters. Um, she just recently, well, like six months ago, gave me like one of the best compliments. She was just about to go to Guatemala to hike a volcano and we were parting ways. We'd just been down to Mexico, and now we were at a halfway point. I was gonna come back here and um they were gonna go to Guatemala and hike hike a volcano. And she we sort of like that.

SPEAKER_03 43:20

Sounds like a fantastic idea.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 43:23

Let's go do it.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

Yeah, uh and so and we're sitting there having an ice cream before they leave, and I leave, and she goes, Mom, she goes, Thank you so much for the gift. I never have to worry about money. That'll always be okay. She has such the gift of provision without fear, and it so abides in her that she can go anywhere and do anything. Extraordinarily generous because she works hard, yeah. But she knows that she does not have to work and to strive to be able to do the things that she wants to do in life, that she can do anything.

SPEAKER_03 43:57

She's not living by a system, she's not living by a system that says there has to be an X amount of dollars in my bank account for me to be okay.

unknown 44:05

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 44:05

Exactly. That is because guess what? I mean being a few years, guess what?

SPEAKER_03 44:09

There is no number that's gonna make you okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

Even if you have millions of dollars, you're gonna still be in fear.

SPEAKER_03 44:17

Yep, exactly. You'll get there, it won't do it. Hundred thousand. No, no, million, nope, no, billions. Exactly. When will it stop?

SPEAKER_01 44:26

Exactly. Yeah, but she lives like that, whether she has a lot or she has a little, because it's an inner belief inside of her that she can do anything and she's not restricted by finances.

SPEAKER_03 44:35

And as you said, she's not irresponsible.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

No, she's very responsible, she's saves money, she wants to buy a house, she's very responsible, but it's a bigger than that because we can be responsible all day long. But if provision doesn't abide in us, we will always be afraid.

SPEAKER_03 44:52

Yeah, we will always be operating from that place of lack.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

And and when and when there is provision, we'll never be able to truly enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

And then what happens when we lose it all? When we've been so responsible, we're always in fear until we are able to do it.

SPEAKER_03 45:06

Or even if you don't lose it all, you're worrying about losing it all.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 45:11

How do I protect it and how do I secure it? And how do I make sure it doesn't lose it all? You know?

SPEAKER_01 45:17

Yep, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 45:18

You know, having a lot just in in brings in a whole nother worry because that worry is is how do I protect myself from losing it?

SPEAKER_02 45:26

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 45:27

Or how do I make sure I'm a good steward of it? Because if I just didn't have it, I wouldn't have to worry about that piece.

SPEAKER_02 45:33

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 45:34

I wouldn't have to worry about being a good steward if it didn't exist, you know.

SPEAKER_01 45:37

So either way, whether you have a you have so much resources or you have little resources, you're gonna be in fear either way.

SPEAKER_03 45:43

And that knowledge of good and evil system is strong. It'll suck you right back in and heart.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

I feel like you see it very strongly in finances. And I know we went on a little bit of a tangent, but I just want to say that that is the true fruit of living it, abiding it, giving it to ourselves, giving it to our children, that they can live in that in a real tangible way.

SPEAKER_03 46:03

Yeah. Well, that's excellent. And I think that leaving on that quote of when you're being and no longer being led by the knowledge of good and evil, then you are truly free. And that's what this system, that's what this wonderful process called the compassion method that Laura um created um is teaching all of us to do.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

Yeah, it's very exciting. I'm getting excited all over again.

SPEAKER_03 46:31

There you go. There's the awe and wonder.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

I can see it. Yep.

unknown 46:34

I can see it.

SPEAKER_03 46:35

So hopefully everybody listening catches a uh piece of that and a reflection of that awe and wonder and are able to uh run with that as all of you continue on your compassion method journey. So thank you everyone for joining us and we look forward to next time. Goodbye.

SPEAKER_02 46:54

Bye.